The Police States of America

ferguson-police

By now, most of America is aware of the shooting of 18 year old Michael Brown by a police officer in Ferguson, Missouri, a killing that was initiated by that police officer insisting that Brown stop walking in the street.

In New York, police used a merciless choke hold on Eric Garner and killed him, despite his many pleas for them to stop because he couldn’t breathe.

In Los Angeles, a homeless woman, Marlene Pinnock was walking along the side of the freeway when a Highway Patrol officer ordered her to stop and when she didn’t, he threw her to the ground and savagely punched her in the face…to protect her from harm, the CHP alleges.

All of these victims of police violence and in the first two cases, murders of unarmed civilians are African American and in all cases, the first response from the police organizations responsible for the murders and brutality was to justify these horrendous acts. Justify it…excuse the beating, suffocation and shooting of American citizens who were just walking and harming no one (police stopped Garner for selling loose cigarettes) , the very people they are supposed to be protecting…unless police have a more black and white definition of who they are supposed to protect and who they aren’t.

These are just three recently publicized situations out of many similar situations that African Americans see happening frquently across the United States. The combination of racism embedded deeply in police forces and the new era of aggressive policing makes for a deadly threat to innocent Americans who are African American.

Add to that, the militarization of police forces which has turned them from a philosophy of protecting and serving the community to responding to even minor situations en masse with armored vehicles, military gear and combat uniforms complete with helmets and gas masks and we see an America that only used to live in dark science fiction stories.

And what makes the killing and ongoing conflict in Ferguson many times worse is the police department’s response to it all, which has been to inflict even greater hostility upon its community, using brutal and overkill tactics on those who are protesting including using tear gas (even on people protesting in their own backyards), rubber and wooden bullets, aiming their semi-automatic military rifles at protestors and issuing ominous threats to any media trying to cover their assault on their citizens.

Yes, this is happening in your United States of America.

Absolute generalizations are necessarily flawed, there are many police officers who are white and not racist, black, Latino, Asian, many who haven’t a racist bone in their body and believe in their proper duty to protect and serve the people in their community. But as monicaangela noted in her recent comment:

Facts About Current Officers

The sampling of current officers was comprised of 2,698 fulltime officers from twenty-one different states. A total 1,116 of the 2,657 officers asked to complete a confidential questionnaire, did so. This equates to a response rate of 42 percent. An additional forty-one officers provided confidential interviews. The following facts were revealed.

· In response to “Please describe the first time you witnessed misconduct by another employee but took no action,” 46 percent (532) advised they had witnessed misconduct by another employee, but concealed what they knew.

· In response to the question “At the time of the incident occurred, what did you think would happen if you revealed what had taken place?” the five reasons listed most often were: I would be ostracized (177 times); the officer who committed the misconduct would be disciplined or fired (88 times); I would be fired from my job (73 times); I would be “blackballed” (59 times); the administration would not do anything even if I reported it. (54 times)

· 73 percent of the individuals pressuring officers to keep quiet about the misconduct were leaders.

· Eight percent (40) of the 509 officers who admitted to intentionally withholding the information about officer misconduct were upper administrators. The upper administrators of the average American police department comprises only five percent of the agency.

· The average age of an officer who covered up an incident for the first time was 31.4 years of age.

· The average years of experience when they first took part in the Code of Silence was 8.2 years.

· 449 of the 532 officers were male, while 74 were female.

· Of the 532 who confessed they had participated in the Code of Silence, 252 were pressured to keep quiet by the officer(s) who committed the misconduct and 118 felt pressure from uninvolved officers. The remaining 162 officers advised they covered up the incident even though they were not pressured.

· Excessive use of force was the most frequent situation over which the Code of Silence occurs, with 217 were excessive use of force circumstances.

· The five most frequently offered solutions for controlling the Code of Silence from the 532 officers who confessed to taking part in it were: Conduct good ethics training (listed 46 times); More consistent accountability (listed 20 times); Ensure open communication between officers and leaders (listed 16 times); Provide an anonymous reporting system (listed 14 times) and Protect whistleblowers (listed 10 times).

http://www.aele.org/loscode2000.html

So even good officers are often intimidated out of stepping up to protest the abuse of power by their police forces.

Though this isn’t new, the new visibility of police demonstrating their disregard for the rights and lives of African Americans, coming on the heels of increasing murders of black men and women by white citizens, encouraged by the Stand Your Ground laws in many states, makes this a dangerous and racially threatening time for African Americans.

And before white Americans step back in relief that they don’t have to be worried about how their police force has been turned into a military-styled army, consider what happened across the country during the Occupy Wall Street protests.

Coast to coast, from Los Angeles to New York, police forces descended on the peaceful protests using military vehicles and tactics, liberally attacking protestors with flash grenades, rubber bullets, tear gas and pepper spray in overwhelming force, marching on them in full military gear and using military vehicles to intimidate citizens and enforce their domination of citizens.

Racism and abuse of power in police forces have always been a problem but consider the visual change of police riot squads over the decades, primarily after 9/11 and the massive funding provided to police across the country to remake themselves in a military mode.

Riot Police in Tennessee – 1960’s:

 

Riot Police in California – 1970’s

Riot Police in New York – 1980’s

 

Riot Police in New York – 1990’s

 

Riot Police in Denver – 2000’s (after 9/11)

 

Riot Police in Ferguson, Missouri – Now

 

Over the years, we’ve looked at other nations, especially the oppressive ones, whose police looked so militaristic and overkill. Now, we are one of them.

Here in Los Angeles, I recently attended a community event where police attended to meet and greet those living in the area. The Mayor even stopped by. The sentiment was the healthy type that seems to be disappearing across America nowadays, that police and citizens are partners in the community and that communication and collaboration is vital. Citizens of all races were chatting and associating with police, the mood was positive and pleasant. This is not difficult for a police force (and Mayor) to make happen, it only requires the will and principles to do so.

Instead, in Ferguson, Missouri, we see a virtually all white police force assaulting their community that is 70% black in a military-style overkill and treating them as the enemy. If the community is the police’s enemy, aren’t they then the enemy of their society? Shouldn’t it be the police that are “arrested” at this point instead of the entire community? If they aren’t serving the people, who are they serving? Just themselves, their power and their enforcement of white racial superiority?

The FBI is now investigating this killing of Michael Brown by a police officer so those who believe in justice can have some hope that the truth will come out and if this officer is guilty of murder, he is convicted and sentenced for it.

Meanwhile, the militarized police state that many Americans are living under, even if it has little direct impact on them today,  will remain unchanged unless citizens and communities come together to pressure their cities to return their police to being public servants instead of an army that’s independent, unanswerable and free to be adversarial to their community.

Video from Canada On Fukushima

A decomposing starfish off Vancouver, Canada. Full article here.

I’m recommending a video that I have my concerns about. The presentation aesthetic is pure ‘Great White North’ a la Bill & Doug Mckenzie. Decidedly grass roots. Dana Durnford, (who’s been blogging about Fukushima for several years) makes more than a fair share of mistakes in the presentation. He’s doing most of the talking and he’s not a public speaker. He repeats again and again that this was an amateur effort with a cheap camera, and they didn’t have enough money or time to look at any area in depth (the trip was facilitated by $600 in donations).  But there’s another possibility here: Dana’s rambling presentation seems to come out of a sense of shock–he and his colleague Terry Daniels (who barely speaks) are taken aback by what they’ve seen. Dana was once a commercial diver, until an accident put him into a wheelchair, but he and Daniels know the beaches and tidal pools of Pacific coast Canada.

The video, uploaded from a streaming webcast earlier on Sunday, documents their recent research trip made along 200 km of the Western coast of Canada to look at the sea life on the beaches and in the tide pools.They saw only four species in areas that used to be home to scores of marine animals. They saw very few insects, only one seagull and one crow, and no eagles.  They did not travel with Geiger counters or other radiation detection equipment. And it’s possible that what they were seeing in terms of a lack of animal life has something to do with global climate collapse. Still… imagine traveling 130 miles of beaches over a week in August  and seeing so few signs of life.

The late journalist/whistleblower Michael C Ruppert had spent the last months of his life talking about Fukushima and all the implications of the ongoing disaster there. There are some 300 tons of highly radioactive water flushing off the site DAILY for the past three years, pushing all sorts of radioactive substances into the Pacific. Fragments of the destroyed reactor fuel have been found in Europe. In one of his last interviews for Vice TV (called ‘Apocalypse, Man’), he talks about Fukushima as a human extinction event–that the currents of the Pacific and the migratory habits of the fish make it inevitable that life-ending radiation would be spread throughout the world’s oceans.

I don’t know what to think now. I have been following the climate story for several months, and the problems appear pretty dire. But the favorite prophet of extinction has admitted that reactor meltdowns trump global warming issues. On Friday night, I interviewed a Competitive Enterprise Institute Climate ‘expert’. He doesn’t deny climate change, but says it’s all normal variation. We didn’t get to discuss Fukushima, but since CEI pushes nuclear energy, I doubt it’s on their radar as an issue. For once I wish the denialists were right.

Why Preventing Genocide Isn’t the Same as Re-Invading Iraq

Yazidis

The media and politicians are so excited to call “Hypocrite!” on others that they are almost cartoonishly oblivious to what hypocrites they turn themselves into just to make that claim.

President Obama won two presidential elections in part to his opposition to the Iraq War and his vow to end it. He kept his word and also followed the withdrawal agreement made by President George W. Bush with the Iraqi government to withdraw all combat troops from Iraq by the end of 2011.

Now, when a rabid and murderous terrorist group has invaded Iraq and is killing thousands of people in addition to threatening a virtual genocide of the Yazidis and the Iraqi military is unable to stop them, Pres. Obama is called a hypocrite by agreeing to the Iraqi requests that the U.S. make targeted airstrikes against the ISIS terrorists to protect these innocent people.

And such sentiments can be found all across the political spectrum, there are Democrats and Republicans, MSNBC and Fox pundits who all come together either explicitly or through inference to call Pres. Obama a hypocrite…because it’s good for their business.

Are they correct? Is a war of invasion launched to take over Iraq the same as using military force to protect a religious community of 50,000 people in Iraq from an invading army? Yes, they both have the country of Iraq in common for where military force is used but is such a simplistic reason for  branding both actions similar reflective of reason?

Imagine that the police raided a home for the wrong reasons and it led to innocent people (and themselves) being hurt or killed. Then imagine that ten years later, that same homeowner calls police for help because there are armed men inside his house who are killing people there. When the police go into the home to stop the armed men, is that identical to wrongly raiding the house as they did ten years before?

What if ISIS was invading Jordan or Israel or even somewhere in Europe and on a murderous march through the country, would President Obama be just as much of a hypocrite if he acted against them then? Are hypocrisy and conscience conditional based on what the latitude and longitude is of a terrorist-driven slaughter? If it’s within the borders of a nation we wrongly invaded, we shouldn’t act but if it’s in a nation we haven’t invaded before, we should? Wouldn’t it be the least we could do after Bush and the neocons devastated Iraq, to come to their aid when another invading force threatens their people?

Iraq’s military is weak, fearful and scattered, they allowed the ISIS terrorists to take their military equipment and rob at least half a billion from banks, so ISIS has basically become the dominant army in Iraq. Even the vaunted Kurdish military, the Peshmerga, was routed by them and the Kurds were on the brink of defeat and invasion before the U.S. stepped in.

And what is the result from the limited airstrikes Pres. Obama ordered against ISIS?

Exodus from the mountain: Yazidis flood into Iraq following U.S. airstrikes

Burned by the sun, blistered with thirst and weak from exhaustion, thousands of Yazidis on Sunday fled the mountain on which they had been trapped for a week, streaming into Iraq’s northern Kurdistan region after a harrowing escape from extremist fighters that some said was aided by U.S. airstrikes.

After the strikes on Friday dispersed Islamic State fighters, Syrian Kurdish fighters with the PYD — an affiliate of the Turkey-based Kurdish Workers Party, or PKK — arrived to secure a passageway into Syria, then back into Iraq, he said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/exodus-from-the-mountain-yazidis-flood-into-iraq-following-us-airstrikes/2014/08/10/f8349f2a-04da-4d60-98ef-85fe66c82002_story.html

50,000 innocent people driven from their homes to a mountain top by murderous terrorists. Children and elderly dying from exposure and lack of food and water…not to mention the 500 of them already murdered by ISIS and the many women kidnapped to become their slaves. No one would help them, not one country in the world, especially not Iraq itself. Despite the potential for political attacks against him, Pres. Obama decided that we could not stand by and watch the Yazidi or Kurds massacred by ISIS so the U.S. stepped in and both groups have been aided. Isn’t this the kind of use of our military that we would want? Defending and rescuing the innocent from the bloodthirsty?

The U.S. has always represented that its military is supposed to be a force for good in the world. Whether in Libya, Bosnia or in other interventions intended to protect innocent people from being mass murdered, the U.S. has stepped in militarily at times (not all the time) to defend many in another country who are in immediate danger. It is also true that the U.S. has used its military wrongly to invade other nations and/or prosecute unjustified wars. However, it is not sensible to throw away our ability to reason and discriminate between different situations and instead just lump together all that our military does just because it happens within the same borders. Isn’t there a glaring difference between lying to invade and take over another country and launching limited bombing attacks on terrorists to stop them from murdering innocent civilians?

Every news report that claims this is deja vu, that “Here we go again!”, that President Obama is going back on his word and being a hypocrite for sending our military back into Iraq are simplifying things just because the story they want to tell is more advantageous to their bottom line or agenda, not because they actually possess the morals and principles to be “outraged” at true hypocrisy.

And that would seem to make them the ultimate hypocrites.

The Weekend Music Thread-Rock and Roll

Welcome once again folks to another weekend music thread. The theme this weekend is Rock and Roll. Pick your faves from any era, any sub-genre of good ole Rock and Roll.

There is certainly plenty rock tunes to choose from. So get ready to kick out the jams and have some fun. Here’s hoping that a little good ole Rock and Roll will have your feet stomping and your face smiling! :cool:

Vox Populi – 8-8-2014

  • AdLib : Murph – But consider all the Repubs who’ve been primaried by the very Tea Party they supported to invigorate the party after Bush and Obama’s win in 2008.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Buh Bye!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- Cantor put the pistol to his own head. His opponent was just the agent used by the electorate to tell him that his arrogant absenteeism was not acceptable.

  • AdLib : Keeping it for the record books, Murph!

  • AdLib : Night Harleigh! Sleep well and see you next Vox!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ok, this really is it…Midnight. One of the longest Vox’s in my memory.

  • AdLib : Murph – Tell that to Eric Cantor!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Good nite….Harleigh …

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….but the TP is unlikely to execute the establishment GOP. I think that the Saudis et.al. are trapped by their own policy and past practice.

  • Harleigh : Well I gotta get some sleep. See ya next week guys, same bat time….

  • AdLib : And the US needs to have the balls to take on the Saudis now for supporting ISIS.

  • AdLib : Murph – But the Saudis supporting ISIS is like Repubs having backed the Tea Party, they are creating a monster that will turn on them. Do they really think ISIS won’t want to take over Saudi Arabia too as their Islamic Caliphate?

  • Harleigh : hardliners with clerics and lot of money. bad combo

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…UAE, Saudis, Qatar are all major financial backers of ISIS.

  • AdLib : Murph – True, it is a challenge to ME leaders because they’ll no doubt have some ISIS-sympathetic citizenry but it’s an existential decision, if they don’t stop ISIS before they’re at their doorstep, they could lose their country and have their citizens revolt against them then. So some difficulty now instead of invasion and takeover later.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Harleigh…since Iran is Shiite, ISIS is the enemy but your point regarding the escalation of the conflict iss well taken. Well…I am at the end of my energy….farmin g, night meetings, and working on blogging options has consumed my life….so this has been a stimulating respite.

  • Harleigh : It is real cause for concern even for me!!! to think of Iran backed ISIS and throw in some nukes and we’ll have som real problems.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…but most are so frightened of their own internal religious struggles that the courage that joining such a coalition represent a major challenge.

  • AdLib : The League of Extraordinary Nations?

  • AdLib : Murph – Seems so clear that most ME countries should be scared by the threat ISIS represents to them and should be game for banding together and being the basis for an international military coalition.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Harleigh and Ad Lib..Or the League of the Willing

  • Harleigh : LMAO!!!

  • AdLib : Harleigh – How about calling it The Justice League?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…my thoughts precisely….the playbook that George HW Bush used in the Gulf War is a good place to start…though not perfect it was restrained, specific in its measurable goals, truly multinational with much Islamic participation. Part of this should be aimed at putting Arabic states funding ISIS on the hot spot.

  • AdLib : Murph – It may be rare elsewhere, but not at The Planet. And just the fact that it can be discussed here without anger bubbling up but with thoughtfulness, it does confirm to me that such understanding can be had.

  • Harleigh : agreed adlib but we sure as hell cannot call it a coalition. That was a disaster thanks to the Bush cabal.

  • AdLib : Murph – If this isn’t the time for a global coalition (where the hell is the UN on ISIS???) to stand against these murderous fanatics, I don’t know when would be. Obama needs to do what Bush couldn’t, especially in the ME, build a coalition of nations that recognize the threat ISIS represents and use that coalition to box ISIS up. Once they suffer reverses and are on the run, their whole theory about how they are destined to take over crumbles and I think they would exponentially fall apart.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Harleigh…indee d.

  • Harleigh : We do here Murph but we are a unusual for that ability too.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Harleigh…since I do not believe in the “divine” Jesus I am less worried about his coming back than I am about our failure to live up to the message in his Good News.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…still that willingness to engage in religious discussion is rare.

  • AdLib : Murph – IMO, it is affirming of how people can get along and be kind to each other to have a discussion or debate on charged issues. It makes me optimistic because I know that we’re capable as human beings to be understanding and tolerant of others’ different beliefs.

  • Harleigh : If he comes back I bet he gets really pissed. I would not want to be a televangelist. LOL

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Before we wrap up..Ad Lib, your practical thoughts re. what the U.S. needs to be doing in Iraq right now…

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Harleigh, thank you.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad…yes..Yeshua , Jesus, would not, I believe, find comfort in DOGMA and DOCTRINE in his name.

  • Harleigh : It’s a good thought Murph.

  • AdLib : Murph – But isn’t that the way? The few incredible human beings come along, inspire others then after they’re gone, the institutions based on them grow and become something very different than the one they were based upon.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Just kidding….sort of.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ok now, everyone who is still here….reach on out to one another and take the hands of your neighbors and let us sing, “Kumbaya, my lord, kumbaya…”

  • AdLib : Murph – Yes, many good works, comfort, kindness and generosity by religious communities and people. That’s what I was saying, speaking of the negative doesn’t mean the positive isn’t there as well.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Harleigh, and I yours

  • Harleigh : Murph I totally respect you and your beliefs. totally.

  • Harleigh : LMAO I will for sure,,, and already there. I hope I never have to live in a place like Saudi Arabia and have to wear a Pizza Hut tablecloth on my haid with a black shoelace holding it on. LOL What’s up with that?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Harleigh and Ad….and whoever else is still here…it took me years to come to an adult faith…to see in Yeshua bar Yusef bin Nazrit what his earliest followers must have seen: a prophet who broke down walls and who reached out to all with love, peace, hope and faith as his guides….and then they got all churchy and myths sprang up. The same thing happened to the Buddha.

  • AdLib : Sabreen – Not at all, really appreciated all you were saying. Have a great weekend.

  • AdLib : harleigh – I’d wager you’d get stoned tonight. ;-)

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sab- your good intention are absolutely assumed..

  • AdLib : Sabreen – That’s called Twitteritis! Yes. the WH Press Corps has become such a swamp. Night, sleep well!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- which makes the burden of guilt so great on those leaders who often know better.

  • Sabreen60 : AdLib, It was never my intention to say there are not good people in all religions. Hope you and others did not mistakenly get that notion. Nighty night :)

  • Harleigh : nite sabreen

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sab….yes our press corps…gazing at their own navels as if they are the whole of the world.

  • Harleigh : Good points Adlib and murph. We could all be stoned to death in some places for even having this discussion!

  • AdLib : It’s easier for those seeking wealth and power to use the most basic human concepts to turn “their” people against others because they are different. Religion, race, the most basic aspects of identity that makes people like others or unlike others.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad..let me add that when you consider the role of religious organizations in education, medical care, poor relief, etc. their support of peace is made even more real.

  • Sabreen60 : Well folks, it’s 12:30 in my neck of the woods. I did want to mention the White House Press Corps and how they asked one question about Ebola after the first African Summit – nothing else. They are a disgrace. Anyway, have enjoyed – but will say good night. Have you noticed how those of us who are on Twitter a lot write in half-sentences. Night all.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Of note- this is not a discussion that most Muslim can have even in the U.S. One of my doctors, a 62 year old Muslim, who has been a leader in his mosque here in midwest America in a large city (St. Louis). He was recently asked to leave his mosque because he has made very strong statements regard Islamic militancy….

  • Harleigh : I can really relate Sabreen. reaally really.

  • AdLib : Sabreen – It is sad but true that Christianity too has its divisions and prejudice (and even hostility) towards other Christians who believe differently than they do. However, there have been great people with strong religious beliefs, like Jesus, Gandhi and Martin Luther King who used religion to bring peace and a future to the people of their time. So this is not an indictment or a broad generalization about religion only causing negative things, just that when negative things happen, religion is often involved (though race and nationality can often be just as much a part of it).

  • Harleigh : I was made to go to church as a kid when my mother moved back in with her parents. When I went to live with my dad I never went back to church of any kind. I view them as a little less than fairy tales but accept that anyone can believe what they want.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sab…as I said I am a Christian Humanist (which includes a very strong streak of classical Buddhism) and not a strict instituionalist.

  • Sabreen60 : Harleigh, I don’t belong to any organized religion. I was raised Baptist, became Muslim, and now I want no part of ANY organized religion. I really want to believe in God, but my faith has been tested a hell of a lot in my life.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sab…I am referring to church doctrine and dogma. All of the churches I listed have broad ecumenical outreach, acceptance and respect built into their official positons.

  • Beatlex : AdLib-well said,there is not much tolerance between the different sects

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Harleigh…it is insane to assume that a 12 year old can make such a choice. I agree. I chose the Episcopal Church at the age of 40

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, I was referring to the doctrine of religions. Not how individuals choose to accept or deny those doctrines. Catholics are not suppose to use birth control, but many Catholic women do. I believe when Catholics make the sign of the cross it is reference to the Father, the son and the Holy Ghost. I’m sure Catholics have changed. But I remember as a child my cousin was not allowed to go to my Baptist church because she was Catholic.

  • Harleigh : Murph – I was confirmed Episcopal around 1960 when I was 12 and have not been back since. I’m agnostic at most.

  • AdLib : Murph – Yes, what we have in the ME now is religious wars between different sects of the same religion but religion is what separates them, it doesn’t bring them together. They may all me Muslim but there’s no difference to the true believers of one sect or another that everyone else, including those Muslims in a different sect, are their enemies because they aren’t in their religious sect. It would be fascinating if it wasn’t so horrible.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Beatle- I agree. Many do.

  • Beatlex : If people TRULY respected other people’s religions,we would have a much better world

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- of course the Islamic Kingdom opposed the Christans..for religious and for most of the other motivations I listed for the Christians. Both groups had a strong message from their religious centers/leadersh ip to oppose other faiths and to spread theirs, by force if necessary. Saladin made peace with Richard III because it served his dynastic needs.

  • Harleigh : adlib – «link»

  • AdLib : Murph – Excellent description of the First Crusade. You would agree though that the Islamic Kingdoms were religiously opposed to the Catholics though? So though there were additional motivations, religion was a factor.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sab…I refer to myself as a Christian Humanist who associates with the Episcopal Church as my prayer community and the center of my own social outreach.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sab…to qualify…of course to be a Christian you accept Jesus…I did not mean otherwise…but to be “saved” the churches I listed accepted there are other routes with and to “god”.

  • Harleigh : adlib – yes FSM may you be touched by his noodly appendage! Ramen.

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, Do not what?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen- yep, Baptists. Lutherans, Methodists, Episcopalians, Catholics, do not.

  • AdLib : Harleigh – Is the deity for Pastafarians The Flying Spaghetti Monster?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….right now we have much of the Islamic World in a battle over its own identity. The religius wars of the 15th, and 16th and early 17th century were almost entirely Christian vs. Christian.

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, Baptist teach that the way is through Jesus Christ the savior. If you don’t accept that then you are not a believer. Now they may not have ill will to those who don’t believe, but you cannot be a Christian if you don’t believe Jesus Christ is the son of God. You cannot be a Christian if you do not believe in the God, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Now if their are Christians who don’t believe this then I confess I am totally unaware.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Beatlex…The First Crusade was launched for a number of reasons. One, the aggression of Islamic kingdoms knocking at the door, east and west of Europe. Second, the need to create “Meaningful” work for a large class of permanent warriors, the knights. Third, the creation of new land holdings for second and third sons frozen out by the feudal system of inheritance. Fourth, control of the mediterranean ports. Fifth, the religious fervor of mostly poor and uneducated people.

  • AdLib : Murph – You mentioned ethnic reasons for wars, I’d suggest that different ethnicities often mirror different religious beliefs as well. How often is there an ethnic war where both sides are of the same religion?

  • Harleigh : Us Pastafarians have it the worst, looked down on by all other religions. It’s a good thing we don’t give a shit and wear our colanders with pride!

  • Beatlex : Murph,Okay I amend my statement,”In the name of religion”

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sab- it depends on which group of Christians and Jews you are speaking of. The more orthodox, fundamentalist the more like to repreent the perspective you offer here. Islam is more difficult because modern reform has not taken root. Most Christian churches today speak of their road as A road and not THE read. The same for most Jews.

  • AdLib : Murph – There may be a variety of motivations but there is often a religious aspect to the worst atrocities in human history. WWII and Jews, Israel and Jews in the ME and Muslims, The Crusades, the Romans vs. The Christians, the Armenian genocide, on and on.

  • Sabreen60 : I think most wars/conflicts are over land. Who owns it. Who controls it. Race, religion are scapegoats IMHO.

  • Beatlex : Murph,I respectively disagree,the crusades? There have been many holy wars,especially early on.And is going on now

  • Sabreen60 : Judaism, Islam, Christianity all tell believers that their religion is the “Right” religion. Christianity tells its believers they cannot enter heave save through Jesus Christ. Islam tells its believers that everyone else are unbelievers. I’ve never studied Judaism so I don’t know exactly what the believers are told. But if every religion is telling their believers that everyone else is wrong, that’s problem. The Qu’ran teaches that Christians are closest to Muslims, but Islamic culture in some countries operate counter to this. But Jews and Hindus are definitely a no-no. However, Islam does NOT teach violence against others. But it does not teach to turn the other cheek either. Of course if you’re not a Christian you’re going straight to Hell – do not pass go.

  • Harleigh : army

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- I do not agree. Much conflict, labeled religious, has been as much, and in most case, more about geo-political, ethinic, and resource based conflict.

  • Harleigh : Do they like draft people into the armu of jebus? just askin LOL

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Beatlex- I do not accept the use of religion as an excuse by statists for war…wars in which the core issue is religion are relatively rare in history. The Christian Crusades were only marginally about religion. They were fought for land and riches with religion as a cover

  • AdLib : Beatlex – I think the more provable proposition would be that more people may have been killed for religion-related reasons than for any other reason. But never underestimate the deaths caused by greed.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Beatlex- No.

  • Beatlex : Murph,don’t you think there has not been more killing than saving going on over the centuries?

  • AdLib : Harleigh, the only problem with that is there are many Progressives who live in the South and they’d be walled in with the lunatics. I think the best and most satisfying thing that could happen is having the Latino population finally hit a level that turns TX and other southern states blue. That will be the end of the Repubs in their current form.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Beatle- because there has been a lot of peacemaking and peacedoing in its name as well.

  • Beatlex : Murph,they may,but what good has it done when it comes to killing in the name of it?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Harleigh….all religions do not do that.

  • AdLib : GC – Thanks! And the goal was to take over land and resources of value while eliminating those with other beliefs or absorbing them into their own religion. The Babylonians were a very advanced society for their time, they had a Gaia-type, peaceful female God they worshipped and that led to their peacefulness and advancement. The Hittites were a brutal and violent cult, they invaded and destroyed Babylon. A real pity for humankind’s future, we’ve been playing catch up ever since then.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Beatle- given back land, redressed grievances for ill treatment, and provided for a legitimate expression of their culture within the broader frame of Canadian history.

  • Sabreen60 : Harleigh, I’m with you. They want to secede? Let them. BTW, WTH happened to Dr. Ben Carson. I saw him on PBS and the man has lost all his marbles.

  • Harleigh : All religions also tell their followers that THEY are gods chosen! LOL How unique is that??

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Beatle- the place of Buddhism, Judaism, Shintoism, Christianity, Hinduism in the promotion of peace is well established (as is a violation of its principles in acts of war and injustice) but by and large their scripture, their principles and a lot of their work supports peacemaking.

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, What would have happened if Israel/USA/Europ e had approached a homeland for Israel in a different manner?

  • Beatlex : Yes Murph,we in Canada have given a lot of land back to our native peoples

  • Harleigh : It is a good idea to secede the entire Texassissippiana homasas region for several reasons; 1. The average IQ of the remainder of the nation would go up at least 30 points. 2. The average median income would go up over $10,000. 3. The average educational level would go from 6th grade dropout to college level. 4. We would save hundreds of billions in waste on their education, welfare and infrastructure. 5. Their new kuntry could be called Teabaggertopia, or Neojebusland or Concrapia maybe. The Texassissippiana homasas region has already been rejected by Mexico saying that accepting all those teabaggers in that region would greatly reduce their national standards.

  • GreenChica : Manifest Destiny = Testosterone Parade

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib – Isis is all of that and so are contemporary Zionist militants.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sab-+- Canada chose a different route in regard to its indigenous peoples….espec ially in the West.

  • GreenChica : Adlib well said.

  • Harleigh : Sabreen I live in South Florida… the older cubans believe that! word.

  • AdLib : Murph – And religion back then is really illustrated by ISIS, they have the violent, conquering and purist mindsets of early religious cults. It was a lot about tribalism and destroying or absorbing those in other religions. ISIS is a terrible but unique look back at the early days of religions, very violent and brutal times.

  • Beatlex : Religions are suppose to promote peace.It’s all BULLSHIT! and a major cause of strife in the world

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, I just think there are right ways and not so right ways to do things. I saw a movie “The Last of the Dogmen”, which I really liked. The archaeologist said that it was inevitable what happened with the Native Americans, but HOW it happened was unconscionable.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Harleigh…no the burning bush story was part of the oral tradition- and the OT contains a variety of literary form with messages that often conflict with each other.

  • Harleigh : Murph – LOL as dictated by a burning bush right?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : are we off line again?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Harleigh…most of the Old Testament was written from the time of the the rule of the Judges, and the founding of the kingdom of Saul – capturing the Oral Tradition you refer to. Wandering herdsmen neither read or write as a general principal. As such the written scripture reflects nationalist identity arising from tribal identity.

  • AdLib : Sabreen – And imagine if the Native Americans pushed white Americans into a small section of the US and walled them in. What then?

  • Sabreen60 : Really Harleigh? Or do you jest?

  • GreenChica : I also think the Israel vs Palestinian fight is a class war.

  • AdLib : Sabreen – You nailed it, those who believe in Zionism also would have to believe in the rights of Native Americans to take back the US.

  • Harleigh : sabreen – same as the miami cubans think everything in cuba reverts to 1957 when castro dies! LOL

  • Sabreen60 : Harleigh, I think “this land was mine first” doesn’t hold water either. Lands have been conquered and reconquered a gazillion times. What would America say if Native Americans were to call for all the land that once belonged to them? They’d get laughed at to their faces.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Kes, are you still there? I think we agree on most of this. I denounced the tactics used in Gaza….pin point strikes at missile sites were possible and instead large scale artillery barrages were used…taking out the tunnels was done far better. The Israelis increasingly give in to their worst natures.

  • AdLib : GC – “Klaatu barada nikto!”

  • AdLib : Sorry folks! A brief pause in Vox but we’re back!

  • GreenChica : I think it died for a few minutes

  • Harleigh : You do realize that all the buy-bull books were originally ‘written’ thousands and thousands of years ago by non-white Middle Eastern brown men in now dead languages and that those were not their real original names right? Most were wandering nomadic herdsmen with even less education than 4 year old in Mississippi. Those books were written by hand in a now dead language and transcribed and rewritten and re-interpreted by hand into another dead language dozens of times for dozens of different religions over the past 5,000 or so years resulting in massive mis-information to control the populations of those times. Pure dogma though.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sab..I think we had some dead space

  • Beatlex : Murph,LOL.I was wondering the same thing!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Are we still live?

  • Sabreen60 : Oops. It seems as though my comment went missing.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Harleigh…true but the intentional killing of the innocent troubles me deeply

  • Harleigh : We kill more people per year here with guns and cars than any of those ME places! LOL

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Kes…3000 years of occupation and a forced expulsion in 70 AD makes for a strong claim.

  • GreenChica : Beatle — you can say that about many parts of the world. We don’t realize how lucky we are (and spoiled) relatively speaking.

  • GreenChica : What they need is that guy from “The Day the Earth Stood Still”

  • Beatlex : What a horrible way to live and try to raise a family,all the people in all these war zones.We are truly lucky in the west.These people have to scramble to stay alive,let alone try to feed and educate their children,My heart goes out to them,The politicians and leaders there are all bast@rds!

  • kesmarn : Murph, I don’t think saying that God gave you the land exactly counts. That land has been there longer than any religious or cultural group has.

  • AdLib : GC – Yes! Kill a kid, launch missiles, build in occupied territory or send a suicide bomber into a populated area…so easy to keep the war going and that’s what’s gone on for many, many years.

  • GreenChica : Harleigh maybe you can convince them to behave a little better.

  • kesmarn : Right AdLib, on the stereotyping. After a while it all starts to look like one big gang war. Wear the wrong colors in the wrong neighborhood and … ka-blammm!

  • Harleigh : All those ME folks are going to be vewy vewy afwaid when I land my bis ass space ship on the temple mound and squish that dome thingy. That’ll give them all something to wail about… go wail at the wall!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Kes..Israel has the historical and ethnic heritage that fits its claims.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sab…not making excuses for that. Let me relate an event I know rather well. A doctor friend was part of a mission to Gaza that set up a hospital in the borderland that marks the separated space between Palestinian territory and Israel….it went well until it was hit by a wave of bombings and acts of supply sabotage plus word that Gaza residents had been threatened by Hamas if they used Jewish doctors….That hospital closed.

  • kesmarn : You bet! All it took was one weekend in Toledo without water to get a lot of conversations started, Chica.

  • AdLib : Kes – Agreed, that stereotyping and group guilting of a people is terrible and is going strong today. Jews living in foreign countries who oppose Israel’s actions are attacked. Palestinians who oppose Hamas’ actions are lumped in with being on the side of terrorism. Stereotypes may apply to some but they are always wrong when applied to all of any group.

  • GreenChica : Kes, I think a lot of our “problems” today are going to look pathetic.

  • sillylittleme : harleigh – lol they do exist

  • kesmarn : Chica, then all these battles over land will look pathetic, no?

  • Harleigh : SLM true… jewish baggers! LOL

  • sillylittleme : Harleigh – Likud is our Neo-cons

  • GreenChica : In a few decades it’ going to be too hot to live anywhere in the ME.

  • Harleigh : I include Lukid RW in the hate groups also too.

  • kesmarn : Right, Murph. But there’s also the question of what is Israel? Sometimes I wish that real estate weren’t so bloody important! Isn’t there some place in the world where people can re-settle and live in peace?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad And if the sabotaging peace talks is not enough…blow up some things and some people.

  • GreenChica : Adlib that is precisely the problem. It’s so easy to break the peace. Jut kidnap a kid.

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, No excuse to deny people water and food.

  • AdLib : Murph – Yep, the minority of haters in Israel and Palestine always sabotage peace talks when they start to look like they’re going somewhere. Without war, their lives are meaningless. Horrible people.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Harleigh, it was…and they moderated across time…resulting in a fragmentation of the movement leading to Hamas and other groups

  • Sabreen60 : Good Night KT. Take care.

  • Harleigh : Murph wasn’t it Arafat and the PLO before hamas?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Kes, one of the most difficult issues is What is Palestine and who are the Palestinians…a re hard question to even frame historically and ethnically.

  • AdLib : Night KT! Sleep well!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Nite KT

  • AdLib : Sabreen – I do think that what is being done to the Palestinian people by the Israeli government is an atrocity. There is absolutely no justification for the hell they’re enforcing on so many innocent people. At the same time, Hamas is committing war crimes as well by using human shields for their missile launchers and happily sacrificing the men, women and children they represent to protect themselves. Sometimes there are only bad actors on the stage.

  • sillylittleme : night kt

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sab…recall too why the Gaza is walled off…when it was open into Israel the flow of militants into Israel led to one horrific event after another…and note that Egypt has the other side sealed off. Why? Hamas is destabilizing wherever they go.

  • Beatlex : Goodnite KT!

  • Harleigh : nite KT

  • kesmarn : G’night, Homie! Rest well!

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, yes the settlements. Maybe Hamas or whomever would still try to bomb Israel. I don’t know. Maybe so. But Israel certainly is not helping their cause by taking more and more land. Someone posted a map on Twitter that showed what Palestine looked like in 1948, 1967 and 2014. There isn’t much left of it.

  • KillgoreTrout : Well, Planet peeps, I must say good evening. Got a few things to do before hitting the hay. Hope to see you on the music thread tomorrow! Sleep well my friends.

  • kesmarn : We’ll drink to that, Harleigh!

  • Harleigh : agreed kes

  • kesmarn : If only we could just make judgments based on evidence rather than stereotypes and knee-jerk reactions. What’s happened in Gaza is wrong and what ISIS is doing is wrong. Doesn’t matter what label the perps are wearing. And I think most of the citizens in both places are not really on board with the actions of the extremists.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : SLM which party is working very hard, and with real success, to make an ardent minority capable of controlling government.

  • sillylittleme : Murph – by the dying party

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sab…and in that paragraph you basically lay out my indictment of the Israeli government, add to it the West Bank settlements.

  • Harleigh : It’s way past time for AIPAC to be registered as a foreign lobby and to curtail all monetary and military aid to that theocratic country/race/rel igion called Israel. That money could be much better spent on our own people and infrastructure. Israel is a bigoted, offensive, apartheid country and should no longer receive anything from the US except our contempt and condemnation. At least they are only targeting, killing and stealing from heathen Muslims, right?

  • KillgoreTrout : kes, I sometimes thing that’s what the bush admin wanted to happen. They needed a big enemy.

  • Beatlex : America has had it’s share of “what if” stories that changed the world.What if John Kennedy had not been assassinated.” What if the right leaning supreme court not “given” the election to GWB,Sheesh! those 2 alone!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : SLM…I see evidence that the hate is resurgent and accepted…it is now a part of public national political dialogue.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…and that minority would work to destabilize any peace by any and all means.

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, Gaza? People are basically in a walled up jail. They are denied basic necessities. Now they have been decimated. Hundreds of women and children killed. Hospitals and schools bombed. Sorry I can’t excuse these actions. IMO, Israel has no right to indiscriminately kill innocents. Now I read where they are denying sub-Sahara Africa children from attending their schools. Everybody else can attend, but not Africans. As I said, there is much about Israel’s policies that I don’t like.

  • sillylittleme : Murph – it may not seem like it, but we are winning the war on hate and racism. It just takes so many generations for it to be accepted worldwide. That generation will be running things very soon.

  • Harleigh : Murph you’re right but I don’t participate and fight it when I can

  • KillgoreTrout : Murph, I think, most of the hate is news generated. Sure it exists, but maybe not as much as the news would like us to think.

  • AdLib : Sabreen – That is the terrible thing that affects both Palestinians and Israelis, they are all stereotyped and there is a mass guilt applied to both groups due to the actions and hatreds of a minority of each. I have no doubt that if a deal was made tomorrow that let both sides live in peace and decency, the majority of both would be pleased…and the minority of haters on both sides would continue to hate.

  • kesmarn : Homie, that’s a good point. As c’lady has said so often — people will do what it takes to survive. They’re not going to just roll over and die.

  • kesmarn : Mutually Assured Destruction, Harleigh… Which really is mad.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : SLM…but I am deeply worried about the acceptance of hate…for Jews, for blacks, for Hispanics, for gays that has become part of the day to day landscape here.

  • KillgoreTrout : kes, I think one of the biggest mistakes? we made was to disband the Iraqi army. Almost over night, we put thousands and thousands of Iraqis out of work, with no means to support their families. They of course, became the insurgents.

  • Harleigh : KT we have manufactured tens of thousands of nukes since 1950. We could literally kill the world with the fallout and don’t even have to detonate them overseas. Russia had a similar amount. Shear ignorance… MAD.

  • sillylittleme : Murph – we’ve gone through worse…

  • MurphTheSurf3 : SLM…and the rising anti-semitism in Europe, Canada, and yes, in the USA feeds that fear, justifiably.

  • AdLib : GC – Far as I recall, no, nothing of consequence ever happened for KBR’s murder for profit of US soldiers.

  • kesmarn : Frontline has a good documentary called “Losing Iraq.” Goes back to the first days of “shock and awe” and then follows the whole mess right up to the present.

  • sillylittleme : Murph – a position Jews are well acquainted with, we wouldn’t be who we are without it…

  • GreenChica : Did anything ever come of that KBR scandal?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Chica- yes Israel makes an easy scapegoat.

  • sillylittleme : GC – BINGO!!!

  • AdLib : GC – Oh yeah, the amount of taxpayer money that was robbed through war profiteering by the corporate cronies of Bush and Cheney is one obscenity that has never gotten the attention it should have. And don’t forgot, through this, Haliburton’s KBR electrocuted, IOW, murdered our soldiers.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sab…no, but there’s is the position that directly threatens the state of Israel and the Palestinian Authority’s decision to work alongside them broadened the threat

  • KillgoreTrout : Harleigh, they’d be insane to use them. We could turn that whole country into a glowing parking lot in a matter of hours.

  • sillylittleme : Sabreen – they are the tea party equivalent, with more lethal weaponry…

  • GreenChica : Murph, I think the Arab states love having Israel there to blame all the problems on. It keeps their people from getting pisssed off at their own corrupt govts.

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, I don’t doubt Hamas intentions. But they are not the totally of the Palestinian people.

  • GreenChica : Harleigh, good point.

  • KillgoreTrout : GC, and reconstruction.

  • GreenChica : War is good for business. Plus the US army went from being a bunch of neophytes to something akin to the Israeli army.

  • kesmarn : SLM, you said a few lines down that you felt they were planning a decades-long involvement with Halliburton in Iraq and I think you’re right.

  • Harleigh : pakistan worries me the most. They ots them some nukes

  • GreenChica : I suspect the biggest profit center was providing all the “stuff” needed for the invasion. Halliburtan, et al.

  • AdLib : GC – They did get some of it…but so did China!

  • KillgoreTrout : The basic philospophy of the neo-cons was pre-emptive military strikes and regime change. They weren’t going to stop with Iraq.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sab…we can talk further but the bottom line is that Israel is accurate in its assessment that Hamas, and those groups linked to Hamas, do not and will not recognize the right of a Jewish state to exist and when they are being brutally honest they extend that to the right of Jews to even live in “their”land.

  • GreenChica : Adlib, so why didn’t they take the oil?

  • Harleigh : SLM nOW you tell me! LOL

  • KillgoreTrout : Exactly Murph!

  • AdLib : GC – Rachel Maddow did a great documentary about the lead up to the Iraq war and backed up the theory that the Repubs determined that an oil crunch was coming due to China’s growth and appetite for fuel so the neocons wanted the US to take Iraq’s oil for “national security”. And billions in profits.

  • sillylittleme : Harleigh – only pot goes in the bong!!

  • KillgoreTrout : Harleigh, that was Hummis! ;)

  • sillylittleme : Murph – excellent point.

  • GreenChica : Hussein was definitely a psycho but the whole “he was involved in 9/11″ was such a Big Lie that many believed (my sister in law believed it)

  • kesmarn : AdLib, I think Dubya was just their spokespuppet. He himself might have had Daddy issues, but they knew how to exploit them. That and his wacky religious zealotry. For the Cheney crew though, it was all about arms and oil.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT- An Islamic Israel! Mission Accomplished.

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, There are so many things about Israel’s policies that I don’t like. IMO, both sides in this mess are awful.

  • Harleigh : I tried to smoke some hubris in my bong once. It tastes like shit.

  • Beatlex : I agree Murph,there would have been upheaval there anyway.GWB just opened the can of worms

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- I think the neocons in Bush’s cabinet used his dad’s “failure” to finish the job as part of their case to get Jr. to buy into the plan.

  • KillgoreTrout : The neo-cons wanted Iraq as a permanent military staging ground for further pre-emptive invasions of neighboring countries in the region. That’s why we really went there in the first place. Oh yeah, and the oil.

  • GreenChica : Adlib, I’ve read we never got that much oil from Iraq. But maybe that was the problem.

  • sillylittleme : Adlib – Spot on

  • AdLib : Kes – I never believed the meme about Bush wanting to invade Iraq because he wanted revenge for his father being targeted by Saddam. I think it was all predetermined by that group of Neocons who wanted to take over Iraq’s oil.

  • kesmarn : Well, there’s always that too, Chica! Humongous Hubris.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Beatlex, but that nest was there and waiting to be stirred. Unreformed, radical Islam is the key.

  • GreenChica : Kes, or perhaps their hubris was so great it’s beyond belief.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- this is why I am a defender of Israeli action on the whole and as large strategy while condemning individual actions and particular tactics.

  • KillgoreTrout : Oh, quite a lot Harleigh. They couldn’t take the oil with them.

  • Beatlex : We can sum up what George wrought into a simple term “He stirred up a hornets nest” when he went into Iraq.

  • kesmarn : Chica, I don’t think Dubya had one rational or informed advisor on staff. He had an old Daddy-grudge and he was in the back pocket of the defense industry.

  • sillylittleme : GC – this is exactly what they wanted a decades long military involvement for Halliburton et al…

  • Harleigh : KT I did not know that Blackwater left anything of value in Iraq after they looted it.

  • KillgoreTrout : GC, W and Cheney and the rest of those criminals never had any intention of leaving Iraq.

  • AdLib : GC – Let’s see…the Saudis funded and supported Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, they’re funding and supporting ISIS…how does that saying go, the friend of my enemy is…my friend because he sells me cheap oil?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Kes- yes, U.S. arms combined with the U.S. as the commmon enemy has given ISIS legitimacy.

  • kesmarn : Beatlex, isn’t it incredible? How could one moron do so much damage?

  • GreenChica : Kes, lots of us knew this was going to happen before the invasion. I can’t imagine W et el didn’t know. Or are they really that ignorant?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- your scenario could be correct IF the the region can wake up to the threat and choose to act.

  • KillgoreTrout : ISIS has done a lot of plundering, stealing millions and millions of dollars from Iraq.

  • Sabreen60 : Good Night glenn. Take care.

  • kesmarn : Exactly, Murph. That Sunni-Shi’a split goes way back, as you know. But leave it to Dubya to arm them and then turn them loose on each other.

  • GreenChica : SLM, excellent point

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Chica- yes the funding list you have is the one I have read. Pressure on them needs to be part of this as well

  • Beatlex : EXACTLY KESMARN!!! Another stinking pile mental midget George left for the President clean up

  • AdLib : Murph – It may not look like it now but ISIS could be that common enemy that brings the region and the West together to stamp them out.

  • sillylittleme : GC- which means we are funding both sides, again…

  • Harleigh : Rand has done more 180’s than Romney… almost.

  • Sabreen60 : I think PBO is compassionate. I don’t think he’s entering into this start another war as they are saying on Democracy Now – comparing him to GWB’s dropping of yellow-wrapped rations to people in Afghanistan – the same color as cluster bombs. These people are lunatics.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Kes…several of the panelists this AM made the point that the U.S. invasion of Iraq accelerated what has been a growing threat from sectarian zealotry.

  • KillgoreTrout : I think right now, in Iraq, a little precision bombing is a good thing. I could care less about these murdering fanatics.

  • GreenChica : Murph, but who is funding ISIS? From what I’ve read, it’s SA, Qatar, UAE.

  • KillgoreTrout : Right B. He has also reversed himself on US support for Israel. Then blatantly lied about it. He’s toast.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn take care…sorry I showed up so late.

  • kesmarn : Chica, I hear you. I was against the invasion from the start as well. But — what choice does the Prez have now? Once again he’s stuck with mopping up after that monster, Dubya.

  • AdLib : 2016 Nicknames: Rand (Away) Paul, Chris (Crossed) Christie, Ted (Death) Cruz, Rick (Sanitarium) Santorum…

  • sillylittleme : night glenn

  • MurphTheSurf3 : I watched two hours of coverage on Al Jazeera America…a most Islamic panel was unanimous in its deep concern aboout the ISIS groups..

  • Harleigh : nite glenn

  • Beatlex : Killgore,I think Rands reversals on thing like civil rights will play a big factor,and his “borrowing” speeches with other peoples words…

  • AdLib : Night glenn, have a wonderful weekend!

  • kesmarn : G’night, glenn! Have a great weekend!

  • KillgoreTrout : Sweet dreams glenn!

  • glenn : Alright, folks, first day of soccer tomorrow–so it’s time for me to call it a night. Nice chatting with you all. Hope everyone has a great weekend!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sab…Rwanda, Khmer Rouge, Bosnia-Herzogovi nia…

  • GreenChica : Kes, I agree. Even though I’ve been again the invasion of Iraq from the beginning. And Sabreen yes that’s what it sounds like to me. Rwanda. Hacking innocent people to bits.

  • KillgoreTrout : GC The video of King arguing with the two DREAMERS at some resteraunt.

  • kesmarn : And of course provide humanitarian aid to those poor folks on the mountain top.

  • Sabreen60 : People are comparing it Rwanda. Clinton says that’s his biggest regret – doing nothing. There are people on the planet that you can’t just talk to, unfortunately.

  • kesmarn : I think the Prez is on the right track. Bomb their supply lines and large weaponry.

  • GreenChica : KT what video?

  • GreenChica : But the rest of the world didn’t create this mess. We did.

  • KillgoreTrout : I really hope that video of Paul running for cover is played a lot in 2016!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Kes…so what can/should we do?

  • sillylittleme : Beatlex – the Rs to a tee!!

  • AdLib : GC – Not surprising that the Daily Mail would be the propaganda machine it is. But they are just preaching to the choir.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Chica…that seems to be so…so where is the rest of the world, what action can the U.S. take.

  • kesmarn : Murph, I think no boots on the ground, but we had to do something about the ruthless murder of “heretical” Muslims and Christians.

  • Beatlex : The R’s….Upper Class Twits of the Year «link»

  • GreenChica : My impression is they murder and behead everyone in their path who isn’t the right religion.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Kes….so what should WE be doing there.

  • KillgoreTrout : ad, kindly get out of my head! :shock:

  • kesmarn : Chica, I couldn’t summon up any sympathy for ISIS today either.

  • AdLib : KT – Sorry! You already posted the Python clip! Beat me to it!!!

  • glenn : Harleigh–a little late, but the repubs are looking away from Benghazi because the Senate Intelligence Committee has found NO evidence of a conspiracy, coverup, or whatever the hell the repubs are accusing PBO of. Benghazi is a dead issue, except for the rabid base, who keep bringing it up. If I were a pol running for office, and a repub brought up Benghazi, I would just highlight the findings of the SIC, and keep bringing them up.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Green Chia…Why?

  • Sabreen60 : Ok Green. I’ll call you Chica :)

  • GreenChica : Murph, I hate to say it but I say bomb the crap out of that ISIS.

  • AdLib : EXCLUSIVE: Unique extended video of Rand Paul running away from the Steve King confrontation by a Latina Dreamer: «link»

  • Harleigh : Glenn – Sharon ran against Harry Reid and after every press confer ence she would SPRINT to her vehicle with her staff running interference. I was a MSNBC staple during that campaign.

  • GreenChica : ^eerie music^ KT

  • kesmarn : Love Monte Python– always an appropriate clip!

  • KillgoreTrout : Great minds GC! ;)

  • Sabreen60 : glenn, Remember a reporter was trying to ask her questions and she ran from the reporters. Of course, she’s not the only one to do that.

  • GreenChica : Adlib if you want to get annoyed, check out Daily Mail. They’ve been on a rampage against Obama / Clintons for awhile now. Every day it’s a story about Obama’s vacation (next to Kim Kardashian’s selfies)

  • KillgoreTrout : :lol: Homie! It’s just a bunny!

  • sillylittleme : Adlib – they love that the poll numbers confirm their narrative… hmmm

  • glenn : Hey gc!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Did you all talk about U.S. involvement in what is happening in Irqaq yet? The Yazidi situation when combined with what is being done to Shia, to Christians and to Jews all over the territory controlled by ISIS…is this not much like what happened in the Balkans and led to the war against ethnic cleansing there?

  • glenn : Harleigh–don’t get the reference to Sharon Angle as regards to runaways. Can you enlighten me?

  • kesmarn : Too funny, Homie — the “Ran” Paul “Run away!” clip!

  • AdLib : Is there anything more ignorant than the MSM throwing every world event into the political sewer? Everything, even possible genocides are really about, “How will this affect Obama in the polls?” STFU MSM ASAP!

  • Sabreen60 : KT, Looks just like Repubs and Emos.

  • KillgoreTrout : kes, green is a nice color!

  • GreenChica : KT — I was just in a conversation not three hours ago where that clip came up!!!

  • sillylittleme : KT – LOL!!

  • KillgoreTrout : «link»

  • Sabreen60 : AdLib, They set their hair on fire all the time. Did the same thing about Libya and Syria. According them we were going into full blown wars. And lordy, I turned on Democracy Now and just WOW! I just wish people would wait before going bold over something that hasn’t happened yet.

  • KillgoreTrout : Rand Paul’s campaign staff;

  • kesmarn : AdLib, actually a lot of Toledoans are saying that too. Fortunately, here on the Lake we have a different system that’s (allegedly) never been affected.

  • Beatlex : AdLib The media in general are much the same.Of course Fox is a breed of it’s own

  • glenn : Ad–This “all or nothing” bullshit is getting old. Don’t people understand subtleties or nuances any more? I agree, I’ve about given up on MSNBC, although I do catch parts of Maddow when I can.

  • AdLib : Kes – I still don’t know that I’d drink the water in Toledo just yet, authorities are always quick to claim things are back to normal when they aren’t.

  • sillylittleme : Iraq and Rand Paul

  • GreenChica : What’s the topic?

  • GreenChica : Sabreen, of course. I should have called myself ChicaGreen so you could call me chica

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hey Chia

  • kesmarn : Hey, Chica!

  • sillylittleme : hey gc

  • kesmarn : Hey AdLib! Toledo has water again. It’s the little things…. :-D

  • Sabreen60 : Hey GreenChica. May I call you Green? The fewer letters I have to type the fewer tyops I make :)

  • Harleigh : who’s the faster runawayer, Paul or Sharon Angle? LOL

  • GreenChica : You too Ad

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad, I am more and more a viewer of Al Jazeera.

  • AdLib : GreenChica! Nice to see ya!

  • AdLib : Hey Kes! What’s up?!

  • kesmarn : Hey, Murph, SLM and glenn!

  • AdLib : Beatlex – I made a big mistake of watching some MSNBC today and those weasels spent repeated shows describing Obama as a virtual hypocrite for sending airstrikes in against ISIS, suggesting that it was identical to troops fighting in Iraq as occupiers in the war. What douches!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : He Kes.

  • glenn : Hey Kes–mercy me!

  • sillylittleme : Hey kes

  • GreenChica : Hi folks

  • KillgoreTrout : I think Paul’s advisor yanked him from the table. Or at least made the “run away, run away,” gesture! And like the spineless doosh he is, he ran away.

  • kesmarn : Hey, Homie! And Sabreen! On the shores of Green Lake Erie tonight.

  • glenn : Sabreen-I’m glad that dreamer caught hell on twitter. I admire her courage in confronting King, but I couldn’t understand her comment about Obama standing up to King. That was definitely not a well-thought-out comment.

  • Sabreen60 : Hiya kes!

  • KillgoreTrout : Homie!

  • Sabreen60 : When did Repubs become such cowards. They’re running around like every person in the country is probably a minute away from contracting Ebola

  • kesmarn : Good Friday evening, Planeteers! Just in from a Mercy meeting. Lots to talk about tonight because Mercy seems to be in short supply in a lotta places around the world.

  • Beatlex : And Rand Paul,that spineless wimp,just about choking on his hamburger.NOT presidential material…EVER

  • KillgoreTrout : Gramps McCain wanted us to stay in Iraq for a hundred years.

  • AdLib : Sabreen – I’d give her a little leeway. Don’t know if you’ve ever been in that kind of position, I have and it can be a bit unnerving to try and keep your cool while confronting someone who truly has positioned themselves as your enemy. And you can say the wrong thing. In her case, it seemed she was trying to validate her independent thinking and that she wasn’t an Obama soldier but that kind of thing is always a mistake. She shouldn’t have been worried about being pegged as a Dem supporter.

  • Harleigh : LOL Glenn, and it caused everybody to look away from BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI, IRS…. etc

  • Beatlex : All I have to say about Iraq imploding is thanks a lot GWB,history is starting to weigh in on your decision to go in.And it makes you look like an idiot

  • glenn : Harleigh–well, of course, Obama started the ebola thingy in Africa. After all, isn’t that where he’s from?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hi SLM, Sab, Ad, Harleigh, Glenn, Beatleex, KT, appreciate the greetings.

  • Harleigh : Obama just had to go start the ebola thing in the country of africa also too!

  • KillgoreTrout : Harleigh, I too am fond of Debbie. Smart lady, and courageous.

  • Sabreen60 : AdLib, She caught hell on Twitter.

  • Harleigh : hi murf

  • glenn : Murph–but it’s all Obama’s fault, isn’t it?

  • AdLib : Hey Murph!

  • glenn : Hey Murph–that must be frustrating indeed!

  • AdLib : Sabreen – I think she got rattled and said that and a few other things that weren’t the most thought out. That part of the discussion wasn’t so good.

  • Harleigh : I adore Debbie Wassermann Schultz and West used to rail his anti-semetic bs at her constantly. He’s garbage. If you look up the ‘n’ word it has a pic of him and Clarence Thomas. word

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Murph!

  • sillylittleme : Beatlex – agree, but it is still about oil first

  • Beatlex : SLM True.Bigger things are at stake though.If Iraq implodes,a lot worse will be going on IMO

  • Sabreen60 : Big bad Murph!

  • Sabreen60 : KT, :D

  • glenn : Harleigh–I don’t think it’s a matter of control with West–I think it’s a matter of no brain matter.

  • KillgoreTrout : She should have charged him with assault when grabbed her wrist like he did.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hello All….long meeting tonight….tryin g to get our state legislature toaccept the ACA Medicaid expansion….fru strating.

  • sillylittleme : Hey Murph

  • Sabreen60 : AdLib, then she blew it by saying she hoped that PBO would stand up to King. WTF. She has the ability to be here because PBO acted without Congress.

  • sillylittleme : Beatlex – the Kurds have the oil…

  • KillgoreTrout : Sabreen, OOOPS!

  • AdLib : KT – King had to repeat, “Do you speak English?” to a woman who was more well spoken than him…as a way of calling her inferior and ignorant. And he had a couple of morons chanting, “Go home!” to her. Well, her apartment was nearby, no problem.

  • sillylittleme : hey harleigh, watch youself… lol

  • Sabreen60 : KT, Hoe? Now I’ll excuse some typos, but even I have a limited when “Hoe” is inserted in a question addressed to me ;)

  • Beatlex : Sillylittleme,bo mbing always bad? Unfortunately if the world didn’t use bombs sometimes,we would have a real mess in the world,not like we don’t already.If this is to truly save a small minority trapped on a mountain I am for it.The truth is it is more about the Kurds,and helping them stave off these animals

  • Harleigh : Gleen he called one of his jewish co-workers a fucking JAP princess! He is not in control of himself.

  • KillgoreTrout : :lol: glenn! BINGO!

  • glenn : Harleigh–I knew all the rest about West, but I didn’t know he’d been fired from his job. Good for his former employers. Nice to know West’s words are coming back to bite him in the ass, since that’s where they come from in the first place.

  • Harleigh : Isis needs a real lesson in carpet bombing.

  • Sabreen60 : KT, etc. I’m just trying to keep sane in an insane world :D

  • Harleigh : hi sabreen

  • glenn : Hey Beatlex and Sabreen!

  • KillgoreTrout : Sabreen in da house! Hoe goes it S?

  • sillylittleme : Hey Sabreen

  • AdLib : Hey Sabreen!

  • KillgoreTrout : In this case, the bombing might very well prevent more genocide. ISIL is a gathering of scumbags.

  • AdLib : Harleigh – :lol: Great run down on Allen West…now if only we could run down Allen West.

  • Sabreen60 : What’s up Planeteers? Hope everyone is well.

  • sillylittleme : Beatlex – bombing always bad

  • Harleigh : Allen West is the worst. He lived in the same South Florida district that I live in that was represented by Debbie Wassermann-Schul tz whom he could never defeat. He was elected in a district he didn’t live in and after redistricting he moved to a gated community miles away where he was defeated by a progressive Dem newcomer to politics in a reppubeliebagger gerrymandered district. West has been drummed out of the Army in lieu of court martial for prisoner abuse, and voted out of office in 2 districts. His often incoherent crazy misogynistic teabagger rants include Rep Wassermann-Schul tz were personal, anti-Semitic and wholly unprofessional. He did get a real job that he was quickly fired from for calling a Jewish co-worker a ‘Princess’. When West heard that a minority had moved into his new gated community he organized a protest. When he found out it was him he lit a cross in his own front yard.

  • KillgoreTrout : ‘sup B?

  • Beatlex : Bombing in Iraq? good idea or bad?

  • AdLib : KT – Same here, that was a big win for justice and extinguishing the murderous mentalities of the gun crowd that looks at Stand Your Ground as a license to kill anyone at anytime.

  • KillgoreTrout : King was so condescending to young Dreamer chick, I wanted to slap the shyte out of him. She was obviously far more intelligent than he could hope to be.

  • AdLib : Hey Beatlex!

  • AdLib : Harleigh – Well, I’ll see your Allen West and raise you a Steve King!

  • KillgoreTrout : So glad that chicken shit that murdered the young girl on hid porch was found guilty. Finally, a little justice, at long last!

  • Harleigh : LOL KT

  • Harleigh : I used to run around at bars and occasionally talk to women that were as drunk as me…. Palin and Bachmann spout more made up bullshit than any of us did drunk and stoned. It’s right off the fuckin wall. Embarrassing.

  • Beatlex : Topics? Hello Voxes!

  • KillgoreTrout : Harleigh, that’s also what Palin’s earrings are.

  • sillylittleme : KT – good one!

  • Harleigh : a repub truth deficit meter is called a vacuum guage

  • glenn : BRB

  • KillgoreTrout : Palin (pants on fire) and Bachmann (hair on fire) ;)

  • sillylittleme : Harleigh – I do!!

  • glenn : SLM–good one. Dark, blood red.

  • Harleigh : SLM… 4 decades if you start the streak at raygun

  • sillylittleme : glenn – dark blood red!!

  • glenn : Ad–it’s been a while since we’ve used that Homeland Security scale–but isn’t it red that the highest level of lying? There’s gotta be something higher than that for repubs, though. Maybe purple?

  • sillylittleme : Harleigh – more like four…

  • KillgoreTrout : We need a truth deficit meter!

  • Harleigh : Repub lie levels have been stuck on red alert for over a decade.

  • Harleigh : AL I would love to see that cowardly piece of shit Allen West in there also too.

  • AdLib : glenn – Since we’re not using that Homeland Security color coded “This Is How Scared You Should Be” scale, why not use that for levels of lying of Repubs?

  • glenn : Harleigh–and from the information I’ve been given, there’s no cure for stepping into a pile of palin!

  • Harleigh : When I went out to talk to my neighbor walking her dog I accidentally stepped in a pile of PALIN!

  • AdLib : Harleigh – Let’s take a moment to consider the possible 2016 GOP Clown Car: Rick Perry, Chris Christie, Rick Santorum, Mike Huckabee, Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, Paul Ryan…wow! Just wow!

  • glenn : Ad–there you go. Another degree of lying. Instead of seven degrees from Kevin Bacon, it can be 1,000 degrees from the truth!

  • Harleigh : LOL glenn!

  • sillylittleme : Glenn – LOL!!!

  • Harleigh : AAL what link? I don’t see no stinkin link!!

  • glenn : Harleigh–the quitter and the bitter for pres and v.p. OMG. Personally, I like palin and ted nugent for the repub ticket–the quitter and the shitter.

  • AdLib : glenn – Lying is such a cliche now when Repub candidates are discussed…we need a new series of words for greater and greater degrees of lying.

  • KillgoreTrout : Thanks Ad. I laughed myself silly watching that. The Rand Paul….eo Diet!

  • Harleigh : KT LMAO or ‘come an git yer screech on y’all’

  • AdLib : KT – I took the liberty of embedding that Colbert video in your comment with the link, very glad you posted it.

  • KillgoreTrout : Harleigh, the Palin/Bachmann ticket’s slogan will be “Hush, Hush Sweet Charlotte!”

  • glenn : Ad–“camouflagi ng all his real positions and past statements”–yo u mean lying about his positions and past statements?

  • Harleigh : Paul will be in the 2016 klown kar but Perry will be driving. I support a Palin – Bachmann ticket fer jebus.

  • AdLib : Harleigh – Paul won’t have a choice in the primaries, he’ll have to face off with reporters to get the facetime he’ll want on tv. And he’ll be nailed.

  • AdLib : glenn – That’s very good to hear, very pleased that TPs are laying into Paul for his cowardice. He is a real fraud and coward, trying this “gentler and kinder” persona to look like the best Repub candidate but camouflaging all his real positions and past statements. If the TP turn on him and the Left does, he’ll be crushed.

  • Harleigh : I have been a Maddow fan ever since her Air America days. Randy Rhodes was the best.

  • KillgoreTrout : Glenn :lol:

  • glenn : KT–I’m in pretty good shape for the shape I’m in.

  • glenn : Harleigh–oh for sure, Maddow definitely has the goods on randyboy. She is such a thorough researcher.

  • KillgoreTrout : I posted a link to a video with Colbert doing a bit on Paul’s running away. Hilarious.

  • Harleigh : Paul will never face any real reporters or reps, he tried on Maddow and was humiliated. LMAO

  • AdLib : KT – He wolfed down a big bite of his burger first, before leaving. Kind of funny, really. “I am hungry but I don’t want to be near a well spoken real person who my policies hurt…hmm…I’ ll just take a huge bite then…RUN AWAY!!!”

  • glenn : Ad–I think running away is way worse. If he had stayed and just repeated his talking points (lies), then the rightwingers would have cheered him on. As it is, even some teapartiers are mocking his running away. Saw it on Slate, I think, where a couple of teapartiers did a parody of it. First time I’ve ever seen teapartiers who were funny!

  • KillgoreTrout : Glenn, I’m doing great! And you?

  • KillgoreTrout : Thanks Ad. I always do, for the most part.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, if he had any integrity and a sack, he would have stayed and joined the conversation. He said he would glady give work permits to illegal aliens. Of course, he’s a lying dirtbag.

  • AdLib : Good news, KT! Hope you have a nice time with her.

  • glenn : KT–glad to hear she’s doing okay. How about you? How are you?

  • sillylittleme : Glenn – they can’t go to any left leaning media as there is none.

  • AdLib : So what would have been worse, Rand Paul staying there and looking on as that brave woman dreamer faced down Steve King or running away the way Paul did? It’s a lose-lose but what’s worse?

  • glenn : SLM–Wouldn’t it be nice if they got figuratively “punched out” by the media? Of course, if they only appear on foxso-callednews , then….

  • KillgoreTrout : Glenn, she’s OK. I’m going back at the end of this month.

  • Harleigh : hey KT

  • glenn : Hey KT–what’s up? How’s your mom? Are you back at the Cape?

  • KillgoreTrout : And Harleigh!

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Ad, and Glenn!

  • sillylittleme : Glenn – they have nothing to say, because if they told the truth, they would get punched out alot!!

  • glenn : Ad and slm–I’m doing well. Made it through my granddaughter’s first week of middle school without one tear!

  • AdLib : Hey KT!

  • KillgoreTrout : How goes it slm?

  • Harleigh : Glenn if I was going to coward out like Paul I would have gone into the bathroom and said I had to take a dump. Way more believable. Good job Kentucky.

  • AdLib : Harleigh, it will soon be easy to describe our location by saying we’re where there is no warfare…then again, there are the Repubs…

  • sillylittleme : Hey KT

  • glenn : SLM–republicans are so “articulate” when they’re in front of a camera or even just a microphone, but put them in front of real, live people, whose lives are being affected by their stupid policies, and they just have nothing to say. If their policies are so great, they should be able to tell people face to face what’s so great about them. Not just those who agree with them, but especially those who disagree with them.

  • sillylittleme : Adlib, I must have missed one of the announcements…

  • KillgoreTrout : What’s up peeps?

  • AdLib : slm – We bombed ISIS 3 times, I think.

  • sillylittleme : Hey Adlib

  • sillylittleme : Harleigh we just bombed Iraq twice today,,,

  • AdLib : Hey slm!

  • sillylittleme : Hey Glenn, well and you?

  • AdLib : Hi Harleigh!

  • Harleigh : Glad to see you all again this week! Glad we are not in Iraq or Gaza.

  • AdLib : Hey glenn! I’m fine, how are you!

  • glenn : Hey sillylittleme–h ow are you?

  • Harleigh : LOL yep, that is their battle cry.

  • sillylittleme : Harleigh – run away, run away…

  • glenn : Harleigh–but… he had another interview, don’tcha know?

  • Harleigh : They can never face the people they hurt or discriminate against.

  • Harleigh : Typical repub coward.

  • glenn : Hey Harleigh–so what do you think of randpaul’s runaway performance this week?

  • Harleigh : TADA!

  • glenn : Hi Ad–how are you?

  • Beatlex : Going to miss the start of Vox tonight BBL

  • AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PDT. Hope to see you here!