crazy-guyToday, we went out to eat at our favourite Mexican restaurant and watch a few innings of the [shudder] Yankees winning the World Series. For a little while there was at the bar a rather loud person, someone who obviously has some … well, issues.

He railed about how people in his neighbourhood wanted to kill him and how in the military, you only have one minute to take a shit. Not exactly dinner conversation. Well, in the midst of his ramblings, he was also spouting off about government-funded health care reform and “lazy liberals” who just want the government to hold their hand and take care of them and who don’t want to work hard. It was kind of annoying, but we did our best to ignore him.

Moments later, with other people at the bar giving him his due grief about his obnoxious views, he blurted out that he is on disability.

So, here was someone … on disability … railing in a bar about government assistance to the poor. When he’s receiving public government-issued, taxpayer-funded assistance for his basic sustenance.

I-I was flabbergasted that he appeared simply unable to make the connection. Now, granted this person’s disability was likely a mental health issue, so perhaps it’s a really poor analogy. That being said, I couldn’t help but be struck by how the Teabaggers, many of them elderly, many of them likely lower income, railing about “government assistance” when many of them are likely receiving Medicare and/or Social Security benefits, or will someday be utterly dependent on those benefits.

It reminded me of a woman on the local news a few weeks ago railing about public health care, then she talked about how her and her husband have excellent medical benefits because he is a retired military officer … but she thought poor people just needed to learn how to do a better job of saving their money to pay for their health care.

Is this what we call cognitive dissonance?
moran2

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whisperingn woods
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whisperingn woods

I can never understand what righties mean by ‘the big government’?

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Questinia
Member

Are you serious? 374 responses?

Wow!

Congratulations Adlib!

et al., of course.

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Corgi Lover
Guest

@nellie: I could have spent several hours developing iron-clad documentation of my point on the budgets but it would have been a waste of time for him. There is a simple but good chart at the Concord Coalition website covering debt over the years. http://www.concordcoalition.org/issues/debt/chart-levels-federal-debt-over-time. But I personally am not his research tool and have a life of my own.

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Questinia
Member

This is cognitive consonance. Dissonance would mean the individual felt an internal conflict.

These people who make such mouth-dropping disconnects operate with a lot of denial.

They may know what the conflict/truth is but they are so able to rationalize and deny, they don’t experience any discomfort at all

These are very strong defense mechanisms, not susceptible to change.

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KQµårk 死神
Member

Great point! These people are just flat out ignorant and proud of it.

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Corgi Lover
Guest

Pepe: You’re a good soul with compassion and maturity. Those of us who have grown up with adversity often gain a better understanding of life and people, if we have the ability to feel and learn.

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Kalima
Admin

Just wanted to share this with the folks who complain about government interference. It was posted on another blog at the beginning of October this year by DFH and makes everything perfectly clear in my opinion. Sorry to take up so much space.

” I pledge to eliminate all government intervention in my life. I will abstain from the use of and participation in any socialist goods and services including but not limited to the following:

Social Security

Medicare/Medicaid

State Children

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HITO
Member
HITO

Kalima and DFH,

There are those that take many things in life for granted everyday. They are also oblivious to the fact that certain services they enjoy are provided by government entities via taxpayer dollars, as you defined.

For some reason, it always seems to be the ones that cry the loudest while insisting government needs to be pared down, but may well receive the most in government related benefits.

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Kalima
Admin

Yes I agree but believe from personal experiences in my life, that nothing and no one should ever be taken for granted. They will never learn that unless they experience something earth -shattering in their lives and maybe not even then.

If you notice the HP posters against the Healthcare reform and the public option, I guarantee that every single one of them have adequate health insurance themselves and are hypocritical and selfish enough to complain about the millions that don’t. Still they call themselves “good” Christians, amazing.

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SeeknDestroy
Member
SeeknDestroy

There is nothing Christian in their view of this subject, or most others. My belief is that the GOP uses the God card to get votes, not actually show Christian values.

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Kalima
Admin

As far as I’ve seen on cable and video clips, they scream out loud in their Churches on Sundays and behave like someone possessed by the devil during the other 6 days. I’m a Christian and I have never behaved like this or hurt anything living intentionally. What do you expect from people who rewrite their own Bible?

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Will T
Member
Will T

Once you build it up you have to tear it down.

But that isn’t the argument.

Limited government is.

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bito
Member

Give me(us) a hint of what you mean by “limited government” means to you. I am sure many here have some limitations on what we would like our government to do. What are yours? Just a small sketch would be fine for me.

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Kalima
Admin
bito
Member
Kalima
Admin

A case of “Hit and run?”

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Kalima
Admin

They are mostly the same, ask a question or that they give examples or links and it’s the great disappearing act.

Actually I’m just going to have my breakfast, it’s just 10:03 here.

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bito
Member

“dish and dash”
He did seem to avoid some of the more “pointed”questions that we had and belabor himself with his talking points. (supper for me,brunch for you?)

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Kalima
Admin

This is not about downsizing the government, that’s not why I posted it. It’s about what people who scream the loudest have forgotten about the services your government gives to all of you.

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BigDogMom
Member
BigDogMom

Wonderful post, I will be making a copy of this…thank you.

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Khirad
Member

I C&P’d it myself.

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Kalima
Admin

You are welcome BDM.

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Will T
Member
Will T

I wasn’t talking about the government.

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bito
Member

Great post, Kalima.

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nellie
Member

Wonderful post, Kalima. Definitely a keeper. Thanks.

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Kalima
Admin

You’re welcome, I thought it was well worth sharing but the point and the thought behind it will be missed by the “screamers” I’m sure.

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Khirad
Member

As a kid I related with Oscar the Grouch. Turned out to be progressive though. Well, I thought the Count was pretty cool too… TMI?

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javaz
Member

Hey, Pepe, someone named Tex, has a greeting for you on the HuffNO Friday.

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bito
Member

“You’ve come a long way Pepe”

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Kalima
Admin

OMG!
I had no idea that “tolerance” was so sinful. I’m going straight to Hell for sure. 🙁

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KQµårk 死神
Member

Limited government intervention is exactly what got us into the horrendous financial crisis. And worse no teabagger types are the ones fighting re-regulating now.

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Will T
Member
Will T

So did too much government influence.

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Kalima
Admin

Such as?

As a woman I would say the the Republican stance on abortion would without a doubt be an abuse of my civil and moral rights over my own uterus.

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bito
Member

More fodder for your post, Pepe,
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/11/05/david-koch-astroturf/
This part goes over my head also. Are these people saying “I want corporations to control my life, and Government needs to stay out of my life!”? Does the realization enter their minds that one may at least vote who represents them,and that they do not have any say about the corporate structure? Hey kids, I hate to break the news to you but the people you are screaming for are in it just for the money. Just a clue for ya.

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Will T
Member
Will T

And so are the politicians. They are in it for the money and the power.

Remember this, when you get screwed by a corporation you have the power of the government to help you get it resolved. When you get screwed by the government you have no help.

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KQµårk 死神
Member

Not every politician goes into it for money and power. EVERY corporate officer wants money and power.

There is zero mechanism for the public to pick who runs corporations save for a few rich shareholders.

It’s the people’s fault we vote bad people into office not the system or purpose of government.

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bito
Member

They was a time (when I was a youngster) That I was a complete cynic of government. I later realized that that attitude did not get my road plowed, my zoning changed, the corporation clear cutting next to me. Just as you don’t like generalizations, I choose not to lump all “politicians” into the pile you describe.
I have met some champions for the people.

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nellie
Member

The thing the media would like us to believe — and the GOP pushes this idea as well — is that the government is some exclusive entity completely removed from the population. We ARE the government. We elect people to run it, we pressure them to put through legislation that we want. That’s what’s happening right now with health care. That’s what happened last November when we elected Mr. Obama.

It’s so ironic to hear people claim to be uber-pro-America, and then bash our system of government — the amazing constitutional creation that makes this country unique in the world, that makes us who we are.

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Will T
Member
Will T

The roads and zoning argument again. You should have brought up the cops and the fire department instead. Much better use of government services.

Somebody remind me how those are comparable to health care? How they make up 1/6th of our economy?

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Khirad
Member

Is this the Ron Paul argument for contracting out roads?

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bito
Member

Did I bring up HCR? No! OH, LOOK a squirrel!
Aint’t gonna work on me this time.

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AdLib
Admin

Yes you do, they have these things called elections.

We were screwed by the Bush Admin and the Repubs who marched lockstep with him.

What happened to them?

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Will T
Member
Will T

Sure. So you have to wait 4 or 6 or however many years and even then it may not return to your favor.

How is that any different then what is going on now?

The problem with depending on the government is you are now putting the control of resources into the hands of a small few whereas with having corporations that control is spread across a larger group. Not one corporation can dominate another.

What competing power is going to keep the government in check?

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bito
Member

What keeps the corporations “in check”?
Oh, that’s right our governance over them. Or is it you choose to not enforce any regulations, or reduce regulations? Would, not enforcing laws against monopolies and collusion suit you better? I am having difficulty with your discussions. You seem quite capable being against any and all but I fail to see any thing you may support.

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nicole473
Member

He does support the corporations.

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Will T
Member
Will T

Thank you for making my point. Exactly, the government is there to act as a referee not to get in the game.

If a corp gets to big then the government has to break it up to prevent a monopoly. Remember the bell?

Who is going to break up the government?

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bito
Member

I did not make your point. You chose to ignore mine.
Perhaps you should read some history on the formation of corporations. Governments (we)make the rules for corporation and their very existence. They are not a “creature of god bequeathed with inalienable rights”

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nellie
Member

Of course we are, Will. And if you don’t believe that we live in a country where the people govern themselves, that we have a unique and magnificent system of checks and balances, self governance, and representative government, then you and I are so far apart in our beliefs that there really is no common ground.

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Will T
Member
Will T

We aren’t the government.

535 people in Washington are the government. You just get your say in who gets to play every so often.

If you were the government then the HC reforms you want passed would already be done.

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nellie
Member

WE do. We’re the government. When it is not operating the way we want it to, we change the people running it.

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Corgi Lover
Guest

So underneath it all you are an anarchist, is that it? Government is the cooperative effort of the people to get things done they cannot get done alone. You like getting your goods delivered on time? Had it not been for the federal road systems, it wouldn’t have happened. If it hadn’t been for the government gifts of land, payments and subsidies, we wouldn’t have the railroads. If it wasn’t for a strong federal law enforcement, the organized crime of the 1920s and 30s would still control much of the “vice” market. Not to mention national defense. The libertarian concept of “governing” might have worked in the early 1800’s but it is totally oblivious to the realities of today’s world. Of course, we could be 50 little countries easily defeated and controlled by outside forces.

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nicole473
Member

He doesn’t understand what an anarchist is, Monk. 😆

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bito
Member

Beat me to it (again), Monk. the word anarchist has been looming in my mind.

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Will T
Member
Will T

Really? Somehow you came to the conclusion that I am an anarchist?

I thought it was about the debate and not the person? Didn’t you say that?

Anyway, it is the idea of limited government not no government.

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Will T
Member
Will T

No, I am for limited government involvement and dependency.

As limited as possible.

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Corgi Lover
Guest

IT is about the debate. All of your limited government arguements eventually come back to an absolute belief in no government, and that is anarchy. Or you are against a federal government, which means you are against the existence of the country, but instead a series of little countries not unlike pre- European Union Europe was. Either way, we would not survive which is not good.

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bito
Member

Ah, gotta love those “REAL Patriots”
Rep. Aiken screws up the “Pledge of Allegiance” and Rep. Boehner can’t keep the Constitution and the Declaration striaght at their gathering today.
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/11/05/akin-pledge/
Heard a Dem Rep on the radio today saying That the demonstrators were just out in the hallways yelling an disrupting traffic. She says they aren’t coming to her office and having a rational discussion with her about what is or isn’t in the bill. (sorry, missed her name)

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kesmarn
Admin

The refusal to engage in actual dialogue and the insistence on just making a lot of endless, repetitious noise seems to be the current M.O. on the right. The only thing it compares to is a tantrum. Plain and simple.

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Kalima
Admin

I just received this Beeb email alert about the shootings in Texas.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8345713.stm

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bito
Member

News conference in 5-10 min
Now saying 20-30 injured

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Kalima
Admin

9 dead, 30 wounded.

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Kalima
Admin

Ok thanks, I’ll put on CNN international now.

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bito
Member

What time is it there, Kalima?

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Kalima
Admin

6:33 in the morning and I woke up at 4:30 before the birds. Damn it!

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kesmarn
Admin

ohio gozaimas! (sp?)

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Kalima
Admin

Ohaiyo gozaimasu kesmarn!

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bito
Member

Well, good morning (tomorrow):-D

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Kalima
Admin

Good afternoon to you too.

Yes this time zone business is really odd. I will never get used to and on the 31st of December, I watch the news and celebrate the Australian New Year because it’s 2 hours before Japan and I’m usually in Noddyland by midnight here.

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AdLib
Admin

OT but just saw this in the news widget to the right:

=============================
FORT HOOD, Texas

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KQµårk 死神
Member

I posted an article about it.

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kesmarn
Admin

7 dead, 20 wounded. Terrible.
What is going on?

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nellie
Member

Just hearing about this. One person in custody, person or persons still at large with sniper rifles. People are being told to stay away from windows. Seven killed, twenty injured. Nine schools on the base on alert.

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javaz
Member

I just saw that, too!

“The spokesman, Lieutenant Colonel Nathan Banks, says two shooters were apparently involved. There is no word yet on who they were, nor on identities of the dead.

Banks says the second incident took place at a theater on the sprawling base.

He says it is too soon to tell whether there is any link to battle stress or repeated deployments. The Army is suffering a record high suicide rate and other signs of stress from fighting two wars.”

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_fort_hood_shooting

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KQµårk 死神
Member

There are faux populist teabaggers and populist teabaggers. But I still disagree with the whole government should do nothing aspect of populist teabaggers. Their are just times, like now and essential needs like healthcare that right wing populists are wrong about. Government is the only entity we have in so many areas to keep a modicum of fairness in our society. The basic problem is not government, it’s government being run by corporations. Ru Paul teabaggers are the worse and most of them don’t have a clue what he really stands for anyway. There are little civil liberties in Ron Paul’s views.

http://www.ontheissues.org/TX/Ron_Paul.htm

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javaz
Member

If it were not for government interference in business there would still be child laborers, no minimum wage, blatant discrimination – even in the housing industry – no safety standards or bare minimum standards, twelve or more hours per day without overtime pay, no vacation time, no sick days, no leaves for pregnancy, no leaves for family emergencies, etc.
The government is needed to regulate and hopefully they will begin regulating the health insurance companies to stop the greed and corruption.
History is repeating itself and not just in the insurance industry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber_baron_%28industrialist%29

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kesmarn
Admin

Right, javaz! And the partners of the “big bad gummint” in almost all of those human rights accomplishments, were those equally “big bad” UNIONS!

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KQµårk 死神
Member

Exactly! We already live in a second gilded age the last thing we need is more concessions to business.

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javaz
Member

Holocaust Imagery at Protest Organized by Michele Bachmann

This image of Holocaust victims was on display at today’s “House Call” protest organized by Bachmann and the Republican House Leadership.

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/143761/holocaust_imagery_at_protest_organized_by_michele_bachmann/

This is very troubling and truly insulting.
Talk about cognitive dissonance.

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nellie
Member

This is inexcusable. It is utter heartlessness.

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kesmarn
Admin

Troubling, indeed. Something is very wrong there.

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nicole473
Member

Thanks, Javaz.

Both of my Grandparents on my Father’s side came from families who were murdered (the entire family except for my gps who had immigrated to the US)at Auschwitz. This is scary, and horrifying….beyond politics.

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AdLib
Admin

Disgusting hateful people holding and supporting that sign.

But I’m past being further troubled, I accept the hatred as part and parcel of far too many of those people.

There has always been a hateful segment in America. Against women being equals, blacks being equal, on and on.

They have and will always be with us to a degree, as long as there’s ignorance.

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nicole473
Member

Showing the piles of corpses of those who died because of that hatred and ignorance is beyond that, AdLib.

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Will T
Member
Will T

And I agree with you. The reason I link this is because it happens on both sides.

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nicole473
Member

To very different DEGREES, and far MORE prevalent on your side.

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Will T
Member
Will T

Your opinion.

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nicole473
Member
Will T
Member
Will T

As is your argument.

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nicole473
Member
Will T
Member
Will T

With no basis.

Both sides to hateful things and no side does it anymore or any worse than the other.

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Will T
Member
Will T

And then there is all of this.

http://zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/

What are people thinking?

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AdLib
Admin

So you oppose both sets of displays, those by followers of Tea Parties too as shown in javaz’s link?

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Will T
Member
Will T

Of course. This does nothing for the debate.

There is no reason to try and equate what is happening with HC reform to the holocaust.

But there is freedom of expression.

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kesmarn
Admin

The images you sent to Monk in the link you posted could arguably be free expression, too.

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Will T
Member
Will T

And they are but that doesn’t make them classy. Just like this holocaust pic.

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Corgi Lover
Guest

The woman has no shame. When others speak of the misuse of terms and images, this is what should be brought to mind.

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KQµårk 死神
Member

LITU their are only a few problems with Medicare and dozens and dozens with private insurance. The problem that causes fraud in Medicare is the “fee for service” concept where providers make money just by doing tests and procedures that don’t necessarily lead to better care and do lead to fraud. The other reasons Medicare is fiscally in trouble is because it still has to compete with huge private care provider rates so even though it can set it’s own rates it sets those rates in a bloated system and because of politics government just cannot increase payroll taxes like private insurers can raise premiums when they need more money. But Medicare with it’s low overhead costs and no profits is 100X better than private insurance.

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LITU
Member
LITU

You are absolutely correct re the fraud problem. Here’s the point I was trying to make, though. (And I need to say that when I write “free” I mean after the fact, as I realize “free” is supported by taxes.) BTW, fraud is evident everywhere in the world, and it is a bogus argument against something, as the continued goal of all is to limit it, knowing it can’t be eliminated entirely. Humans are clever.

Medicare is about as far removed from “free” as one can get. We pay into the system when we work, and we pay premiums when we partake, we pay residuals the program doesn’t cover, and we often purchase private insurance to cover the differences. Is it better than private? Absolutely. You won’t get an argument out of me there.

Socialized medicine, be it the European model, Canadian, or any of a number of worldwide programs, generally provides for comprehensive coverage at little to no cost to the recipient. That’s because everyone working pays into the system, and the tax structure is (universally) designed to tap into the wealthiest members of that society. This is the inherent failure of our Medicare system. It does the opposite.

These models offer us the framework to restructure our healthcare system, without having to start from square one. I do not support the private health insurance industry. It’s oxymoronic. It’s designed to fail the individual. It is anathema to a healthy society. Etc, etc.

When you include the millions of healthy persons in a national healthcare program (revenue), the cost of administration is lowered. When that system only includes the aged and sick, the costs become excessive and wasteful. Another argument FOR nationalized medicine.

So I hope I’ve explained why I am also opposed to single payer in the Medicare format, notwithstanding it’s the best we have.

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Will T
Member
Will T
nicole473
Member

To continue my post from below………

Willt, this is a ditty penned by a conservative:

“I didn’t fall
for ol’ Obama’s fairy-tales
Tax hikes for just a few
but not for me
Spending out of control
That’s the way it seemed
Didn’t want to see the end of all my dreams

When I saw his plan,
now I’m a teabagger
Not a chance I’ll fall for his talk
Say it proud, I’m a teabagger! You can’t fool me tho’ you try

I know government needs taxes to run things
Seems the more I paid, the more they want.
What’s the use in whinin’?
Taxpayers get the blame
But I need some relief from his pain

Then I saw my friends
now I’m a teabagger
Not a chance we’ll fall for his talk
Say it proud, I’m a teabagger! You can’t fool us tho’ you try

Spending out of control,
That’s the way it seemed
Didn’t want to see the end of all our dreams

Yes, we saw his plan
now we’re all teabaggers
Not a chance we’ll for his talk
Say it proud, I’m a teabagger! You can’t fool us tho’ you try

Yes, I saw his plan
now I’m a teabagger
Not a chance we’ll fall for his talk
Say it proud, I’m a teabagger! Yeah, I’m a teabagger. Yea, yea, yea, yea, yea I’m a teabagger.”

And, here is another instance of “pride” in being a teabagger.
http://theforvm.org/diary/corky/i-am-teabagger

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bito
Member

Nicole, a week or so I posted to you, on HP, that I had to go to the DR.’s and you commented back “Good luck:-)”
Just wanted to let you know your luck was with me.
Quote from the 7th line on my bone morrow biopsy states “NO EVIDENCE OF RESIDUAL DISEASE” Thanks for your wishes.

Now as to your latest post, perhaps it may be best to vote down and ignore Wilt.

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AlphaBitch
Member
AlphaBitch

Hi there – don’t know you, but congratulations! Happy day, no? May it continue for a long, long, time!!

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kesmarn
Admin

Not to intrude here, but I just have to say congratulations on the excellent test result you got, bitohistory!

And I think you have a point on the “ignoring” part, too.

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nicole473
Member

bitohistory……

I am so happy to hear that things turned out well for you!!!

As to ignoring Willt……..some things one can not ignore in good conscience. 🙁

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Will T
Member
Will T

Since it was used in a song by one person that makes it okay to use with everyone?

Try that with the N word. Let me know how that goes.

And anyway, he points out that the word has a negative connotation to it if you read more on his website.

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nicole473
Member

OMG, you really don’t get it/anything!!

The “N word” is slamming a person for an IMMUTABLE characteristic.

Were people BORN as teabaggers? Have they no choice in the matter?

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javaz
Member

Some times it is just best to ignore those who refuse to listen.

“There are none so blind, as those who will not see.”
Jonathan Swift – “Polite Conversation”

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Will T
Member
Will T

Regardless of the use your putting forth that “teabaggers” is an acceptable term to use because somebody used it a song.

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nicole473
Member

No, just showing you instances where it is used by teabaggers themselves.

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Will T
Member
Will T

You have shown me “an” instance.

I have shown you “an” instance where people are offended by the use of the word.

Did that change your opinion?

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Will T
Member
Will T

But you are acknowledging the fact that you use the term with the intent to insult.

That is my point. You can’t debate open and civilly if your intent is to insult someone.

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nicole473
Member

NO. It is not an immutable characteristic over which one has no control. They are responsible for their own behavior and attitude, and “teabagger” is frankly, the least insulting term I can bring myself to call them.

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Will T
Member
Will T

Did your opinion on the usage of the word change once you found out people were offended by it?

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nicole473
Member

2 instances. Read again since you are determined to quibble.

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