Since closing arguments are going to be presented this morning I thought it would be a good idea to see where Planet members fell on the Casey Anthony verdict.  I have to admit that watching our justice system in progress for “crimes of the century” cases like these are a guilty pleasure for me, no frivolousness intended.

First let me say I think Casey Anthony is guilty of 1st degree murder whether it’s through premeditated murder or 1st degree based on aggravated child abuse.   However I would not say this is a death case because there are mitigating circumstances and I personally only believe in death cases where the worst of the worst atrocities have been committed like in multiple murder cases or acts of terrorism.

I do not expect everyone to agree because I understand how the evidence in this case could be interpreted different ways.  I happen to believe strong circumstantial cases are better than some direct evidence cases, especially cases that are based solely on eye witness testimony because circumstantial cases require many more pieces of evidence that make up a mosaic where if one piece does not fit you still get most of the picture.

Even though a circumstantial case does not have to rely on one or two pieces of evidence the prosecution needs indisputable evidence that is the foundation of their case that prove things like means, motive and opportunity.   There are a few pieces of evidence in the Caylee Anthony murder that just could not be explained away by the defense.

Opportunity:  Casey Anthony was the last person to see Caylee alive.  The trunk of her car definitely contained the decaying body of Caylee Anthony for time enough to develop a smell which was corroborated by several witness and canines to be that of a dead body.  The reason the defense put forward that it was only decomposing garbage was because anyone who has smelled the smell of a decomposing body knows what it is.  The 31 days that Casey Anthony was ducking her parents were damaging in different ways but first of all it gave her a huge window of opportunity to commit and cover up the crime was a big part.

Motive:  Casey Anthony wanted to hit the “reset button” so she could start her life over again without the responsibility of having a child.  My wife actually came up with this phrase years ago for pathological narcissists who wish to take out every person that they find as a burden in their lives so they can live the “Bella Vita” (Beautiful Life), which just happens to be the tattoo Casey Anthony got after Caylee was killed.

Motive (part deux):  Drinking, Stripping, Stealing, Screwing and Tattooing.  People grieve differently that is true but in the Caylee Anthony case she was not suppose to be dead only kidnapped.  At least that is the story Casey Anthony lied about amongst her plethora of lies.  Still Casey Anthony’s behavior showed she was a complete narcissist in every way possible.  Prosecution does not need to prove motive but it seemed pretty obvious to me.

Means:  I have no doubt that the manner of death was murder whether it was an accidental murder or not it was murder.  I thought Dr. G’s testimony that 100% of child drownings were reported to 911 was truly damning with regards to Casey Anthony’s behavior.  There is simply no way Caylee died in an innocent drowning accident that unfortunately happens in that area far too frequently.  The defense’s flimsy case of showing that this family was too dysfunctional to report a simply drowning fell on deaf ears when the fact is 100% of previous drowning accidents are reported.  You would have to believe that in 100% of these other cases there was not one dysfunctional family that DID report a child drowning.

Means (part deux):  The chloroform searches were the final nail in the proverbial coffin for me.  Sure Cindy Anthony, her mother, lied because she knew the searches, especially the search “how to make chloroform” showed intent.  Intent for Casey Anthony to at least drug her daughter to get her to go to sleep or to incapacitate her to murder her.  In either case it’s murder one because it would be aggravated child abuse at least and intentional murder at most which both lead to the same punishment.  All the talk of duct tape being around Cayee’s mouth just reinforces the case for murderous intent but it really is not a necessary part of the case.

There were many other small pieces of evidence with varying importance but to a reasonable person all roads lead to Casey Anthony unless you had a bias to make excuses for her.  This case reminded me very much of a case you folks on the West Coast are more familiar with, the trial of Scott Peterson.  That was a case where Scott Peterson hit the “reset button” before his pregnant wife could drop her baby.  There were a lot of evidentiary similarities as well.  The State had proven the manner of death was murder but they never knew the cause of death either and he was convicted and sentenced to death anyway.  Like the Scott Peterson case much of the jury convicted him because of the way he conducted his life after the loss of the victim.  Like I said I do not think the Casey Anthony case is a death case because there are more mitigating circumstances than aggravating circumstances.

Having watched a good part of the defense case on a personal level I am left utterly disgusted.  Sure a defense should produce a vigorous defense but the way Casey let the defense destroy her family by putting her brother and parents on the stand over and over again just reinforces how narcissistic this woman is.  It is bad enough Casey never ever told anyone what really happened to Caylee.  One point I did not hear Casey Anthony apologist bring up when they defended Casey’s lies because they said she learned how to lie from her parents was how come Lee Anthony was not a liar?  Lee Anthony being raised by the same parents obviously grew past them so that shows all the lies are in Casey’s character by choice.  I totally disregard the shallow apple does not fall far from the tree argument.  I saw the Anthony family as a family that was not perfect but in extreme grief because they had to endure the tremendous loss of a granddaughter and niece.  While at the defense table I just did not see a grieving mother but a mother who wanted to get off and who only showed emotion when it looked bad for her or when her future reality crept in her mind.

As kind of a side story.  One of the strangest parts of this case for my wife and I is we knew one person who was partying with Casey Anthony in Jacksonville, FL.  To our shock when all those pictures came out showing Casey Anthony partying in those 31 days, we saw a picture of her dancing with a group of young woman and we saw Xenia (name changed to protect her innocence).  My wife use to work with this single mother Xenia and she could never get her car running so my wife would bring her to work.  Well we got to know her and her son a little because we use to go to clubs in Jacksonville back then to listen to different bands in the area.  When my wife had surgery and she was out of work for a while we actually lent her our second car so she can get to work.  Besides seeing her dancing with Casey Anthony’s group the other reason I bring this up is because this is the first time we heard about single mothers who drug their children to put them to sleep.  Xenia use to use baby strength Benedryl but one time she curiously mentioned that some single mothers use Xanax on their children.  In fact that’s the first time my wife and I heard the term “Xanny the Nanny”.   We never knew if this single mother of a two year old at the time ever used Xanax on her todder but even at the time we found this comment curious.  For other reasons the State of Florida’s child services department had been “tracking” Xenia so we hoped she was being monitored for such behavior but I admit now we may have reported the conversation.

I do not see how you cannot have empathy for single mothers.  We did a lot more for Xenia because we saw what a burden it was because like Casey Anthony she was very young and of course raising a young child is very difficult even if a couple is doing it.

Most of all I do not want to get Nancy Grace with this but we should remember who the victim was here.  A perfect little toddler who deserved a lot more.

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jkkFL
Guest

My final comment as well.. Casey got by with murder and walks 7/13.
I only wish it had been Friday the thirteenth.
The State is poised to file charges for investigative costs; and I hope they soak her- which I think they will.
At least, if they do- she may wind up with a lot less that she would have. Coupled with the civil case brought by Zaniada Frenandez-Gonzalez which will cost her another piece of the pie, My greatest hope is that she will have Nothing in the end..

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Chernynkaya
Member

OK, this will probably be my last link about the trial. From Marcia Clark, of OJ fame:

“Worse Than O.J.!
While the stunning Casey Anthony acquittal defied logic, O.J. Simpson prosecutor Marcia Clark details how juries often delude themselves—and why this verdict trumps even her case.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/07/05/casey-anthony-trial-marcia-clark-says-the-verdict-was-worse-than-the-o-j-simpson-case.html

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Khirad
Member

There were actually a lot of funny tweets to this effect.

Which is horrible, I know. It’s not funny. But I laughed. What else can you do?

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texliberal
Guest
texliberal

This is the price you pay in a system that presumes the innocence of criminal defendants until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. But I can’t think of a better way.

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ADONAI
Member

This is not a defeat for our system of justice. Only a defeat for the state of Florida. Under this same system someone believed guilty, who is actually innocent, will walk free.

I still believe we have the best justice system in the world. But it’s not perfect. And it never will be. It will disappoint, it will confound, but it will also deliver justice as it has many times before.

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SallyT
Member

Yes, Adonai, it will. Justice for all. Sometimes that “all” includes the lowest of low but still the scales must and will balance for that “all” is the purpose.

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jkkFL
Guest

[img]http://media.trb.com/media/photo/2011-07/354720200-05122114.jpg[/img]

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Chernynkaya
Member

ABC News exclusive: Casey Anthony Juror: ‘Sick to Our Stomachs’ Over Not Guilty Verdict

http://abcnews.go.com/US/casey_anthony_trial/casey-anthony-juror-sick-stomach-guilty-verdict/story?id=14005609

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jkkFL
Guest

Cher- that’s bullshit! They didn’t have to let her walk- she failed to report that child ‘missing’ for 31 days. They had options..

•Aggravated manslaughter of a child: Maximum of 30 years in prison.

•Aggravated child abuse: Maximum of 30 years in prison.

The foreperson of the jury had a home rented in the UK starting 7/7.
Had they convicted, they would have had to remain in Orlando until 7/7!
They started out with a hung jury-6-6..
There is already a bill called Caylee’s law, that will make not reporting a missing child immediately a felony.
http://losalamitos.patch.com/articles/caylees-law-petition-takes-off-in-wake-of-casey-anthony-verdict

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Chernynkaya
Member

What can I say jkk? Don’t shoot the messenger! I just thought it was an interesting article giving some insight into what these two were thinking.

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jkkFL
Guest

Cher- I heard that BS on the news tonight, It just not valid.
Not aiming at the messenger! Sorry, Honey..
This is the Real Casey..

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Chernynkaya
Member

I hear you, jkkk. We’re cool. 🙂

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jkkFL
Guest

Good! Don’t want you send your ‘People’ to greet me some morning!!!! 😉

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Chernynkaya
Member

The verdict reached by the jury is Not Guilty of 1st degree murder. I admit I have only followed this occasionally, but as I did I kept thinking that the death penalty requires near-perfect evidence. The very fact that their was no forensic evidence as to the cause of death meant to me that the state should not have asked for execution. I believe Casey Anthony would have been found guilty of a lessor charge, like manslaughter–the state overreached. They had a circumstantial case and for a capitol crime, their evidence was really just too meager. If I had been on the jury, I could not have found her guilty of First Degree murder, even though I believe she did cause her daughter’s death. But as a matter of law–reasonable doubt–the death penalty was unattainable. And frankly, listening to the closing arguments, the prosecutors really didn’t make the case, IMO.

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Artist50
Member
Artist50

There were two lesser murder charges they could have convicted her on. What I can’t help but wonder is if she is released on Thursday whether she will go home to her parents. I can’t imagine they are ready to take her back into their home after the things she has said about them and you know that they are aware that she is the only one who could have killed little Caylee. Can you imagine that reunion?

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SallyT
Member

Cher, I agree with you that the Prosecutors mistake was in going for the death pently with the case and evidence they had to present. A lessor charge would have probably found her guilty, such as manslaughter. The jury took their job seriously and found as they saw the evidence or the lack there of. The case had much attention in the media and Nancy Grace’s show for a year and half. The public found no trial necessary because they had found her guilty. But, the public only hears the sensations of a trial and not all the facts. They hear the evidence of guilt but not the argument or facts that counter such evidence. The jury does. Too many times the media makes the story that will get the most attention for them. Many times attornies on TV say how the case should be tried if they had it but they don’t and they don’t have all the evidence regardless of what they say.
In the OJ case, the prosecutors error was the trial for both the wife and the waiter/friend murders together. If they had done them separate, they probably would have got him found guilty on the second trial. But, to save money or whatever the reason they didn’t.
Regardless of my opinion on this case, the jury’s opinion and decision is the one that counts. If it were a member or friend of mine in such a situation, I would pray that they have a jury that listen to the evidence presented in the trial and not that on TV, papers, or the internet.
A little girl lost her life and nothing can bring her back. How, where or why was not answered with the evidence.

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jkkFL
Guest

The jury had 4 choices:
Murder charge

Possible findings:

•Guilty of capital first-degree murder (premeditated).

Sentence: Death by lethal injection or life in prison without possibility of probation.

•Guilty of first-degree murder, non capital (premeditated).

Sentence: Life in prison with possibility of probation.

•Guilty of second-degree murder (no premeditation).

Sentence: 16-3/4 years to life in prison with possibility of probation.

•Guilty of manslaughter (didn’t mean for Caylee to die from her actions).

Sentence: Up to 15 years in prison.

•Not guilty

Additional charges

Regardless of verdict on murder, the jury must also decide on these charges:

•Aggravated manslaughter of a child: Maximum of 30 years in prison.

•Aggravated child abuse: Maximum of 30 years in prison.

•False information to law enforcement regarding missing person: Four counts — up to one year for each count.

At the Very Least she should have been indicted on Child abuse; she sure didn’t spend any time hunting for her- unless she expected to find her in one of the bars and clubs she partied in..while everyone else was looking for Caylee.

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SallyT
Member

I stand corrected on the choices available to the jury. However, the choice was theirs bases on the evidence presented in the trial. I have a personal opinion of the young woman and even an opinion of her guilty or not. But, I did not set in on the trial or was I on the jury. I only know of the things I have seen on TV or read on the internet and listening to the closing arguments, and of course that is not everything. I am sure sooner or later, one of the jury will give a statement and give some explanation of why they went with not guilty. Like I said, it was theirs to find and my opinion is not one that matters.

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jkkFL
Guest

Cher- having watched Casey in action for 3 years; I have to disagree.
The jury just threw Caylee Marie back in the swamp.
and Casey gets to walk as early as this weekend.. On to the ‘Beautiful Life’ she successfully created.

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jkkFL
Guest

How to get away with murder:Commit it in Orange Co. FL- with a jury from Pinellas Co….
Unbelievable.
Caylee deserved Better Justice.

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Wolf Larsen
Member

Interesting take my friend. I am maybe the only person in America that hasn’t followed this trial. Seems just about everyone else I know is really caught up in it. So my take regarding her guilt or innocence is really based on what I have heard second hand.

I use to be a strong advocate of cameras in the courtroom because given the miscarriages of justice this country has witnessed over the years I thought it would provide some sense of accountability among the participants and in most cases that is true.

But in the sensational cases….the ones that many in society use for television ratings and material to further their prurient interests in the misfortune of others….televised trials can really compromise the proceedings and if not the legal rights of defendants than at least the social perception of their charges.

I am sure Casey is guilty of some heinous act and probably will be found by a jury of her peers accordingly….but the nature of the proceedings and the circus that comes with the coverage…turns our legal system into entertainment and that is the problem in my eyes.

The legal system seems to be going the way of our news coverage… 24 hour cycles that need to fill dead air with sensational content in order to attract viewers. Don’t get me wrong….I was GLUED to the tube when the OJ trial was on. Hell I knew the minutes better than the court reporter. But since then I have been able to see how murder is “glamorized” and pundits and experts make good livings out of arguing the case nightly. Progress I guess.

However this trial comes out….a beautiful young child that deserved so much better is still dead. The mother is left to answer for her deeds if judged guilty and Nancy Grace and the rest of the judicial parasites will find another host with a dead child or a crawlspace full of death and the world will move on.

In its wake will our judicial system be made better or worse by its presence? Hard to say….but I am sure the ratings will be through the roof….

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jkkFL
Guest

Hey Wolf- good to see you!
I do believe the presence of cameras in the courtroom is an asset. First- it is rather educational; allowing people to learn the process of justice, perhaps making us better jurors.
Second, in high profile cases it is an educational process- even for attorneys. I have a family member who is an attorney and she has watched as much as she could just to improve her argument and presentation of evidence skills.
Third, we learn actual law limits and procedure. I certainly find the commentary by local attorneys fascinating- law is much more restrictive than one would think.
Finally, I do not get my info from the legal beagles or the national BSers!
Nancy and her friends are not mine, and her info is not what I’m looking for.
Geraldo???? Who can accept Anything he says?!
I personally plan to attend a future trial presided over by Chief Judge Perry; (the local joke is lawyers use LexisNexis, Good lawyers consult Chief Judge Perry!) He is a Master.

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whatsthatsound
Member

KQ, I don’t have a reply button down below, so placing this up top. I have never lived in any Scandinavian country, though often wish I had been born there. I’ve lived in New York, the S.F. Bay Area and Tokyo, all very cosmopolitan areas so I have talked to and made friends with numerous Swedes, Norwegians, etc. My view is that their “nanny state” is the closest thing on earth to a nation-sized entity putting the welfare of its people first, ahead of dog-eat-dog economic concerns.

As one person commented on an article comparing the “Nordic Model” with the Irish Model, “people live in societies, not economies”.

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jkkFL
Guest

K- y’all.. I have been living this case for 3 years. Here is my interpretation, FWIW.
She is a pathological liar; and a sociopath.
As she put it: ‘Damn, I am such a good liar..!’
When asked by her brother Lee why she didn’t just surrender Caylee to her parents, she replied, ‘Maybe because I’m a spiteful bitch.’
Theory floating around Mickeyville: she would chloroform or medicate Caylee and put her in the trunk, while she was out partying. (George and Cindy didn’t have her.)
There was no ‘Zanny the Nanny’- (however zanny is street slang for xanax..)
Caylee was almost 3 when she died- she was at the age where she could explain abstracts, and she would also talk about issues and incidents. If she woke up during one of those scenes; it was just a matter of time before George and Cindy found out, so Casey was cornered.
It was well-documented that Caylee would fight sleep- perhaps out of fear of a previous incident??
Nothing will faze this bitch; she is a ‘courteous and happy inmate,’ per the corrections officials.
She only ‘cries’ when she is the subject of discussion.
She would throw God, and family under the bus, if it would give her one more ‘Hot Body’ contest, or one more chance at a wealthy boyfriend..
I think she is guilty as hell- as do many here, and while I am not anti death penalty, in her case I am hoping for Life. She has been in the ‘girl’s dorm’ in Orange Co. jail.
Send her to the big house, and let her live the nightmare reserved for child killers- for the remainder of her miserable life.

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Khirad
Member

I give special consideration when it’s local.

This was mine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westley_Allan_Dodd

I was around the victim’s ages at the time. Our parents had us on very short leashes for a few weeks there. It was before 24/7 news, but I’d imagine it would have gotten a lot of play today.

Now, seriously, I was about to ask what kind of a name Xanny is. I don’t know why this didn’t occur to me earlier. Of course it’s slang for Xanax. Duh! She’s consistent and brazen and performed her lies well, but the ability of a lie to work is on the susceptibility of the receiver to believe it. And that shoulda just screamed ¡bullshit!

Her parents should have gone for custody and declared her unfit. Ah, but hindsight is 20/20…

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jkkFL
Guest

Khirad, they did threaten it- but in FL Grandparents have no legal rights.
They would have had to file a complaint with DCF, and DCF would have had to investigate her case and prove her an unfit mother..
A Grandparent does not even have the right to file for rights to see their Grandchild, in FL. They had No options- unless Casey voluntarily signed Caylee over to them.
If you remember- Lee asked her why she didn’t turn Caylee over to her parents. Her reply, ‘Maybe I’m a spiteful bitch…’

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BlueStateMan
Guest

Who gives a FLYING FUCK?

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whatsthatsound
Member

um…..dragonflies?

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jkkFL
Guest

Lovebugs- (Inside joke in FL- we have ‘unilluminated lightning bug’ like bugs that swarm and plaster themselves against our vehicles in May and October while copulating!) 😉

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whatsthatsound
Member

I just never want to see two giant Palmetto Bugs doing the dirty in mid-flight!

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jkkFL
Guest

I sure hope Rosie was napping when you posted that!!!
And, Neither do I!! 😉

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funksands
Member

Boy are you gonna hate my recap of the Lindsay Lohan trial minutes….

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BlueStateMan
Guest
Khirad
Member
choicelady
Member

Anyone who cares about the disastrous way we leave single moms to fend for themselves. In “olden times” there would have been other women and men to help her. The Victorian and thus ultra-conservative notions that nuclear families are the norm has bred not only dark and obsessive problems for the mothers who have no one to talk to or to help but a nation of narcissists who have no sense of alternative worlds in which they can function. Girls have no other role models than their depressed and desperate mothers. Boys too often have no role models at all given absent fathers.

So we do try to learn from this. It’s not something to blow off but to correct. The Caseys of the world need help so their children don’t become victims of our warped notions of “family”. I almost was one, so yeah – I do give a fuck.

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BlueStateMan
Guest

What has this to do with “the disastrous way we leave single moms to fend for themselves”??

“Correct” WHAT?

This is PRURIENT HOGWASH touted as “social relevance”.

Meh.

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choicelady
Member

BSM – I think you are usually wonderful and have great comments, but we are discussing this because, among other things, Casey could have been MY mother although mine was married.

The issue of how we keep women who are single mothers from self destructing and then destroying their children IS important. Nancy Grace does NOT define how we think about these concerns. Casey’s individual story is not unique. We all are trying to put this into context. That’s all.

And you are NOT required to pay attention. Just don’t trash those of us who see this as a bigger issue than one woman’s horrific behavior.

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BlueStateMan
Guest

My dear friend.. what she MIGHT have been and what she IS could very well be as different as night and day.

No matter WHAT the situation is (and remember that peacekitten.. my significant other was horribly abused by her husband to the point of attempted murder).. there is NEVER an excuse for deliberately MURDERING your own child.. or ANY child for that matter.

She could very well be innocent… I hope she is as she is most certainly damaged and in need of help… but the facts seem to point otherwise.

Of ALL of the women needed to be “role models” in this era where degenerate factions are trying to rolL their status back to that of “property” in this country… the LAST one I would choose is MEDEA.

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Kalima
Admin

BSM, if you don’t like the subject of KQ’s post then you don’t have to read it or comment on it, however it is a topical subject, and this site welcomes opinion pieces about any subject, not just political. You might like to check out the other recent articles here, where everyone certainly has plenty to say about problems facing the U.S. today. We talk about politics almost 24/7 here, it’s a holiday weekend, so let’s please calm down and let others speak about other things too. Btw, Happy 4th of July to you both.

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BlueStateMan
Guest

Nevertheless, my old and respected colleague, it IS my opinion, and I fail to see why it is less relevant than any other here.

This is TABLOID journalism.. and I feel it BENEATH what this site is supposed to represent.

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BlueStateMan
Guest

Indeed.. nobody is advocating otherwise.

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Kalima
Admin

Of course you are entitled to your opinion BSM, and it is always very much appreciated, but we are free to write about topical subjects too, and I really don’t see KQ’s post as lowering any standards here, or that his post is in any way “tabloid” journalism. You do realize that this is quite insulting to another member I hope, and this is one thing we try to avoid here. I thank you for your cooperation on this.

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kesmarn
Admin

I must say, I’m in agreement with c’lady on this. There is much relevance in KQ’s article.

There have been a number of instances of women killing their own children and it never hurts to try to understand why, nor to examine the way we react to these situations. Including the way the legal system reacts to them.

The Planet is a good forum for these discussions, as there usually tends to be a lot of intelligent, compassionate commentary and analysis, and not a lot of sensationalism.

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Khirad
Member

I guess, to split the difference, I would rather most of this stayed on Court TV. There is news. Then again, when was the last time that was covered anyway? If it’s not sensationalizing this, it’d be something else. So, whatever. I just tended to shut off the TV when they went to wall-to-wall coverage of this. Also, the kitchen sink crap the defense was throwing out there I feared was making me stupider every extra second I listened to it – the Jersey Shore effect.

I think there are issues to discuss about it, which we are here. But for most people, I think debt ceilings and such are too abstract, and everyone can connect to this, and so it is tabloidized. Hélas.

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kesmarn
Admin

No doubt at all, Khirad, that the media really have sensationalized this story. I would assume it was done by Nancy Grace, especially, although I can’t say for sure because I truly cannot bring myself to watch her. And that tabloid journalism is not good.

But I don’t feel KQ’s article was inappropriate in the way it approached the subject. (And I realize you’re not saying it was, either.) Hence, my confusion at the strong reaction.

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lynettema
Member
lynettema

1. First of all we have a LEGAL system. Through personal experience, I can’t think of it as a justice system. If justice happens, it’s a happy accident.

2. I’m not watching, but I am following the trial. I think she’s guilty as can be. The duck tape does it for me.

3. It’s not the parent’s fault that she is a sociopath. Why that happens, we don’t know, but I am sure the parents ask themselves over and over what they did wrong with her and what they could have done to keep this from happening. As dysfunctional as they may be, I feel sorry for these parents.

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