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chazmania On March - 2 - 2011

One thing that i have always scratched my head over is how is it possible that with all the potential of the human species with the ability to create beauty art science why do we spend more time and energy on trying to kill each other then trying to uplift our species?

This film Below is one of the most profound looks at how we can actually change. But the shift has to start mentally first

The idea of the possibility of a whole radical shift in thinking is not easy for most that have been systematically indoctrinated into worshiping the present system. The system rulers have used the clever ruse of fear or of lack of security based around maintaining the system…..Most people can not imagine another way because it has ingrained itself on our very Psyche..

But if we do not change that and do it quick we may see the entire system crumble and the species has the potential of going extinct due to the destruction of not only us but the whole planet….Every environmental system is in decline or gone….This is not hyperbola this is studied documented and observed by the best in the fields and it is all but ignored in the public discourse…

It really is up to us to make people aware….And do not be persuaded from watching this because of the negative associations being made by the corporate  propaganda run “news” system..the rulers on high fear information the most..information undoes the lies they have used to create a culture of cubical zombie drones that perpetuate the system….it really has become no different then a cult. When anyone wants to leave the cult the whole cult acts as one to destroy decent…Please watch it and spread it…The future does depend on it.

Written by chazmania

Changing the course of discourse.

94 Responses so far.

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  1. Abbyrose86 says:

    As I read all the wonderful thought provoking comments on this thread…all I could think was “WOW”…and how glad I am to be here and a part of PlanetPOV. Seriously. The thoughts and opinions expressed are so fantastic. I especially appreciated the back and forth between Chaz and Choicelady. Those comments, although they started out with some animosity turned into something really great to read and ponder.

    WE all are products of our own upbringing, experiences, genetics, family, social structure, education, sex, ethnic background, etc. As a result we all have the opportunity to present divergent opinions and perspectives on subjects such as this one.

    Change is often hard for most, and changing ideas that are so ingrained and in which so many have a vested interest in is quite difficult.

    For myself, I have struggled with change. Even if or when, I didn’t even realize I was fighting the changes on a subconscious level. I thought and believed I was more open to the change than I actually was…it was a real eye opener, to accept my own limitations in this endeavor.

    I think in some ways many don’t really think about it, they just ‘do’, do what they are expected to do and what they themselves believe they should do, based on many indoctrinated concepts. I think that inhibits the ability for many to really change their ways of thinking or even their ideas about life.

    Anyway…this was a fabulous thread. SO much food for thought!

    • chazmania says:

      Thanks Abby…I have to say i learned a few things along the way and am better for it…One thing i think really comes out is the way i was so quick to pound on people that disagreed (HP trauma) And get things Wrong as the reason to pound and then off you go with two really good people at each other…boy that divide and conquer is deep in our culture now that we good people are even succumbing to it.
      And everyone’s reactions are so….Mature! Im not used to that at all…
      Another aspect this brings to mind is how to undo the hair triggers we all seem to have cultivated living in these trying times…And to undo the chasm of seemingly divisions that i don’t think are all so big…I think we all truly want the same things.. i even think the tea braggers want the same thing they just have no cognitive ability to realize someone is manipulating their anger in the wrong direction..
      and yes change is hard for many who have found a comfort zone..even abuse victims some times have a sense of comfort in the abuse…
      They have figured out how to navigate it so they are OK..I think this is our present society..the corporatist are abusing us and we are allowing ourselves to be victimized becasue we see no other alternative becasue they have eliminated all other alternatives..

      One thing that is bothering me hear at the PP is the fact i may be only preaching to the choir.. And the real battle for the minds is back on the HP even though its toxic….HMMM must contemplate

      • Chernynkaya says:

        Chaz, I spent the months leading up to the Midterms almost exclusively at HP and one of the reasons (along with issues unrelated to the Planet) I did that was because of what you just said: I wanted to convince people that they could not fall for the divide--the divide promulgated by HP--among Progressives! I refuse to engage trolls because I am convinced it’s futile, but I was very concerned about what I saw among those on the Left-- the ones I am ideologically aligned with. I saw so many people buy into the demoralization and then I saw the results: The Right swept the election.

        Who knows if I made a difference. I garnered 3000 fans, which only means they may have been “the choir” to begin with, but I know for a fact I at least encouraged a very few (because they told me)to at least vote. That was a lot of effort for the meager payoff. I find that the atmosphere there is not set up for civilized discourse. It is too hard for me to carry on the necessary conversation by which we can change hearts and minds. I could at best put up some links to dispel some lies and inaccuracies. I could try to point to the real enemy.

        What I learned is that for me, my time is better spent learning the issues and engaging in activism--be it letter writing, attending rallies, Tweeting and emailing the media. I intend to work this summer for O of A in preparation for 2012.

        But what I also want to emphasize is that it needn’t be an either/or situation. I still go to HP. But, and this is just me, I find it hard to toggle back and forth between battle fatigues and defenses, and thought and reason. HP actually drained my energy for REAL activism.

        • Abbyrose86 says:

          @Cher, I too amassed over 3000 fans and like you tried to use the forum for good (most of the time!) but got tired and found FOR ME, it wasn’t productive and was draining. I no longer felt it mattered what I was trying to accomplish.

          Like you, I was concerned about the 2010 election, and I worked my neighborhood and region. I was on the phone making 1000’s of calls and went door to door, and after doing THOSE things felt inspired and then I would go to HP and deflate.

          It finally got to be too much for me, and I realized I was fighting a losing battle. I left and won’t go back. BUT on the positive side, I have found so many better forums to get involved with…especially here, that inspire me and keep me motivated to do what I know in my heart I should be doing and thus (hopefully) making some progress. :)

          • Chernynkaya says:

            Abby--I amazed that you managed to do BOTH! (canvass the neighborhoods AND post!) Good on ya!

            • Abbyrose86 says:

              @Cher…I WAS QUITE motivated this past election!

              VERY motivated. I live in NY and Carl Paladino was running for governor…if that doesn’t move someone to SERIOUS action…I don’t know what would! :)

        • chazmania says:

          Thanks Cherny…

          That helped me to better deal with the idea of doing both.(im your choir)..HP {spit} was real draining on me too and i am really contemplating NOT going back for all the reasons you pointed out…i got very discouraged on there dealing with the level of ignorance duplicity and mental twists of those people on that site not to mention the inane moding problem and the sight technically a frustrating nightmare..

          The Planet has all these brilliant deeply good people on it..the contrast is so huge and the feeling i got hear is light years more mature kind and civilized..I felt near Abused on the HP {spit}..(that never ceases to please me to say {spit})….. That i feel like never going back to that place.
          I may as i am compelled at times to keep an eye on the loonies least they try and sneak up on me and eat my brains.

          • Chernynkaya says:

            Thanks Chaz! I hope you will also consider getting active in other ways too! You have so much to offer. People with your awareness are needed. If you don’t know where to start, I put up “Take Action” opportunities on the Daily Planet thread--you can look though some posts from earlier this week too. (No pressure! :-) ) Just a suggestion!

            • Chernynkaya says:

              Exactly, Chaz. “”It’s better to light a candle than curse the darkness.”

            • chazmania says:

              Thanks…I have done a few things these days to gather signatures for voting measures and pounded the pavement a bit..even attended meetings and protests but every time i do this stuff i feel like im spiting in the wind. or like the problems are so much larger then these well meaning folks trying to do at least something…
              I feel like we are up against a whole physiological battle for sanity on this planet..
              The core of the problems not being addressed just the symptoms… I see the way governments and corporations are manipulating popular thinking and beliefs and i want to scream my bloody head off “YOU IDIOTS DON’T YOU SEE”

              I will check out your suggestions.. Maybe if i feel i was doing something other then bitching to the wind i might feel less frustrated…

      • Abbyrose86 says:

        I think one of the great things here, as opposed to THERE, is that we can actually discuss and learn from each other. The environment is positive and not constantly focused on the negative.

        While, I agree there are many who need to be open to other ideas…I use other forums for trying to encourage critical thinking. I’ve given up on HP though, sadly it’s turned into such a toxic environment, one which doesn’t really lend itself to open and honest debate.

        I agree with you about how we all developed some bad habits from over there and from society in general. TOO often, in many different forums and circumstances, people are TOO quick to anger or to assume things. I’ve been SO guilty of that myself…but I would suggest, recognizing that it is a problem, probably is half the battle to understanding how counterproductive such behavior actually IS and I think that conditioning has been the effect of many years of the “cowboy” mentality and propaganda being fostered upon us.

        Ironically, we were just discussing this very concept in my cultural anthropology class. I have a fantastic powerpoint on the topic. It’s very enlightening. I will download it and share it tomorrow.

        • chazmania says:

          It is toxic Abby…But it does reflect unfortunately the greater world out there. And THAT is what is so sad and frightening…So much ignorance and misinformation..so much of it its become so convoluted that its no wonder people are only navigating on emotions and NOT critical thinking..they rely on fantasy thinking based on feelings not truth or real evidence because of all the skewing of everything..you cant trust anything is real anymore..leaders and officials lie with conviction and title.
          The thing is any one with real cognitive skills ends up here, the rest will be swayed and flounder around like zombies.
          Im glad i found this place. its helping me get back to where i once belonged…

          • Abbyrose86 says:

            Chaz. you hit the nail on the head. Emotion is fueling the debates not critical thinking. I also agree, that HP showcased a microcosm of emotional reaction of many, that is at the heart of most of our nation’s political discourse. I find the same on other forums as well. Thus why I don’t feel HP is necessary anymore. I can get a feel of public reaction by going to other forums, and than posting about what I have read HERE and on other more positive sites.

            I no longer believe that I can make a difference at places like HP. So I now limit my posting and writings to places I believe will have the most value. I might not reach as large of an audience BUT I at least know, what I have written is actually understood. :)

            Hopefully some day, WE will be able to expand our readership and get more to break out of the corporate controlled haze of propaganda they’ve been fed. Wisconsin gives me hope! :)

  2. Chernynkaya says:

    This story seems apropos. I heard it on “House” and followed up.

    In 1844, there was a preacher in Vermont who told his followers that the world was coming to an end on April 18. His followers gave away all their belongings and they all stood together in a field waiting for the Rapture. When that didn’t happen, the preacher said he must have made a mistake, and he recalculated that the REAL end of the world was actually on October 22.

    On that day, he had even more followers waiting in the field for the End. The sun rose on the morning of October 23 like any other day, and October 22 came to be called “The Great Disappointment.” One follower wrote that “Our fondest hopes and expectations were blasted, and such a spirit of weeping came over us as I never experienced before… We wept, and wept, till the day dawn.”

    The preacher never gave up and he and his growing number of followers remained convinced that the End was nigh. Instead of being discredited as a crank, this preacher became famous and popular. After each false prophesy, his congregation grew.

    His name was William Miller, and he is credited for founding several major religious denominations, including Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Advent Christians. Later movements found inspiration in Preacher Miller’s emphasis on Bible prophecy. His own followers are known as Millerites.

    So go figure.

    • KillgoreTrout says:


      • Chernynkaya says:

        Killgore! I love that movie so much! Yeah, Preacher Miller is like those guys! 😆

        • KillgoreTrout says:

          cher, a true masterpiece of film making. Incredibly funny and, for the most part, true. Except their actually being a savior named Brian.
          I always think of this scene when the fundies start spouting their apocalyptic bullshit.

          • chazmania says:

            I get the feeling that my article is seen by some as nonsense..or that the zeitgeist idea is more of the same nonsense.

            I like to think i am a lot more objective then some bullhorn preacher on the side of the road..
            I love this Monti python movie for the very fact it points out the ridiculous mentality or the far rights fear tactics.
            but one can say the zeitgeist movie are doing the same..
            Its kind of easy to just mock it and that takes the severity away…(not saying you are) just made me a little uncomfortable to think yikes am i being one of those preachers?
            But one thing is clear we are facing a real environmental brake down and the video is not just a bunch of no nothing religious zealots.. the people interviewed and speaking are in the top of their fields and are trying to warn people legitimately about whats in store if we do not change our ways.

            What if its correct and the denial will be the one reason it ends up coming about?

            • Chernynkaya says:

              Chaz-- absolutely not! That was not the intent of my comment at all. I used it only as another example of denial. I am very sorry you thought that from my comment and I am glad you spoke up so I could clarify!

    • chazmania says:

      My First reaction to your post was “hay wait a second is she saying im some sorta crazy preacher spoutin the sky is fallin….???””””

      So I reread it and think your saying..the neocons are deluded into thinking the rapture stuff is real so trashing the planet is ok becasue they are “saved” blah blah blah and punishing the non believer is gods work…more blah blah blah….

      I actually think one aspect that not many people consider is the christian and Zionist duel con game going on..both sides are using the other to further their own agendas both sides see the other as useful idiots in bringing about their end game..
      Unfortunately many people are indoctrinated into the fear to mention Zionists in any bad light..they have made it near imposable to criticize them….Helen Thomas is a good example of the power of this indoctrination and tactic.

      • Chernynkaya says:

        You had me ’til you last paragraph. And then you kinda went on a tangent there about Zionists that so muddied the waters that I now have to re-think my reply. But no. I wasn’t saying you are a crazy preacher.

        • chazmania says:

          Yeah i know it was just a mind sidestep…I have a massive fever at the moment and cant be totally responsible ha ha……I know the whole Zionist thing is a very touchy subject for people still…
          You just mention anything as critical of it and everyone’s first reaction is “oh this is racist” or bigoted oh i cant agree i may be seen as associating with those anti Semite skin heads or west baptists crazies….Its an ingrained Pavlovian reaction now..It sure works wonders for keeping people off the trail though huh?…

          The reason i mentioned it and i guess not appropriately is that just like we see the corporatist as a group of people that share a mindset the neocons can be seen to share a pretty clear mindset as well and this is NO different for the group that call themselves the Zionists..the difference of course is the highly effective narrative preached for years created a belief that to be against a Zionist you are against all Jews and therefor automatically a racist bigoted Jew hater..that idea Zionism and Jews are one in the same allows this seemingly logical leap. ah the fear works wonders.This false narrative has been purposefully cultivated to use the very tactic of accusations of racism and bigotry and the dreaded label “ANTISEMITISM” to obfuscate and hide the corruption and manipulation that group has become incredibly adept at..Yes i know i know this so smacks of bigotry on the face of it But it truly is NOT…If anyone really knew me they would know there is not a racist bone in my body…
          We all have no problem bashing away at neocons.. they have no such weapon to hide behind.
          If you watch the power of nightmares by Adam Curtis you can see the time line of the indoctrination of the current cultural belief systems you have all gown used to that have been systematiclly created managed and sold to the people of the USA by people that never believed a word of it..and if you dig deeper you start to see the Zionist connections behind it….Conspiracy? that is so easy to say to stop the debate as it does so well. But if you consider the whole all the evidence some circumstantial and some not you start to see a clear pattern emerge that shows what i am saying is actually occurring right under everyone’s nose…This is not only a CLASS war its a psychological war..

          And we shall NEVER fix any of it if we chase windmills….

          This Documentary may shed some light on cultural brain washing.

    • choicelady says:

      Cher -- that may indeed be one of the saddest delusions ever. We’re about to see the next. An engineer in Oakland, CA is leading a movement claiming the Rapture is coming May 21 and the end on October 21. True believers will not be affected, but the near believers -- well, depends on how deeply they gave up the “world” and what they lost. I predict a wave of suicides at least toward the end of the year. NOT the engineer but his followers. He has this all over the world. It will be very sad if those who believe are destroyed by his foolishness. Yes they are gullible, but he’s a charlatan, and I will lay their desperation at his feet. There ought to be a way to make people have to compensate those whom they have deceived even if they themselves believe their own foolishness.

      • ghsts says:

        There’s a jobs bubble I would support, “Lemon Laws” for organized Religion (entropy is a sure thing, don’t hate the player hate the game.) ” alt=”Smiley” border=”0″ />

        • choicelady says:

          That would slow US down, not them! True believers just keep on keepin’ on. You have to value logic rather than magical thinking to be disillusioned.

  3. ghsts says:

    Chazmania your article makes perfect sense to me, but we all have that cognitive dissonance thing going. The pragmatists wont even allow you to bring up those ideas without writing you off as lost. We often encounter that “surely we can all agree,” to be followed by; the system isn’t all bad, it would be too painful, it’s not the system it’s the people running it, we’re better than them, it can’t be done, and my favorite ‘every day we get a little closer to making this shit taste good.’

    It is stunning to me how many folks aspire to humanism but are afraid of the stigma, being seen as weak or prey. Myths and cons fit better into their packaged education and hope only to be included as the chosen ones. “Unsociable social beings” we are, lord forgive me for quoting Kant, ‘just give me more time, less suffering’.

    As a kid I bought into Leary’s “tune in, turn on and drop out,” not the drug fueled cliche of charlie sheen but more like ‘listen, act, dissent.’ It didn’t give me the American Dream, had brief moments of empowerment and as I loose my value as a wage slave it is scary sometimes. I know plenty of creative types that went with me but they never had the fear making rent, worry about status or safety, and most of them seem happy and fulfilled so I still have hope. Revolution at the level you are talking about can happen peacefully but for most it will be painful, change seems to be a survival tool not a choice.

    • chazmania says:

      Love your response..(some smart people on this site)…
      I was too young to have really gotten all hippie in the 60s..i do remember observing it vie my brother..i used to think man they are some strange people..He had the dark light posters smoked pot went to woodstock…As i got older i actually resonate more with the mod 60’s then hippei 60’s..I am a cross between scientist geek and musician.
      I drive a 1962 British sports car that i do all the work myself on.
      Many hairless APES these days think they are smart becasue they can purchase a laptop and a cell phone but have no idea on how they work..Im not saying people need to know just don’t be so arrogant about it..

      Oh and the idea of being humanist is seen as prey is one thing im glad you pointed out…this trickle down corporate mentality is at the core of what has become the American collective sickness…
      I linked Adam Curtis Documentary in this thread a great BBC documentary that really shows the steady indoctrination into the mindset of “fuck you buddy” a John Nash invention that says do it to others before they do it to you…

  4. KillgoreTrout says:

    chaz, Man is an aggressive animal. Man is also a greedy animal. Of course, the whole of mankind is not, there are some very decent people in this world.
    Aggression, greed and the desire for power is what keeps the cycle of violence alive in the world. And I put most of the blame on governments. Greedy, power mad leaders that place no value on human life, other than their own.

    “No matter how noble the objectives of a government, if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion--it is an evil government.”--Hoffer

    • chazmania says:

      One thing i would point out is when you make a statement like “man is an aggressive animal” as it is pure unmovable fact you cut off any possibility to think beyond that..(not saying you are..im already in hot water for being too finger pointing much to my sadness)..
      But i don’t like making statements too solid as fact (guilty as charged and recently below)
      We have been aggressive and have been greedy and also very heroic and kind in the same measure…I fear that we as a species have a lot of trauma. this has created a very aberrant psychology..dog eat dog mentality…corporate gaming strategy has trickled down into the culture..do on to others before they do on to you seems more prevalent then ever..its almost like its a point of pride now…
      And at the CORE dishonesty….i view dishonesty as a disease…Its very effect is detrimental to the species..when anyone lies they do so to undermine another to benefit off the backs of another to exploit or abuse. As a collective species we are interdependent on each other for survival and by infighting we reduce our capacity to survive…its the mentality that is the anomaly of our present system that was sold to the culture to benefit a select few..
      watch power of nightmares the Adam Curtis documentary…to see the time line of this indoctrination and happiness machines from him as well.Really shows my point…

      • KillgoreTrout says:

        I think you skimmed over my first paragraph. “chaz, Man is an aggressive animal. Man is also a greedy animal. Of course, the whole of mankind is not, there are some very decent people in this world.”

        Sure we have made some strides since coming down from the trees, but just look at the world we live in. Ethnic cleansing, genocide, invasions, occupations, torture, imprisonment, unnecessary wars….etc.

        • chazmania says:

          DId i skim? hmm i have been known…sorry.
          I do get where your coming from yes we are an aggressive fanged cruel animal that seems to never be satisfied..maybe it really is an ingrained unchangeable trait that will eventually be our undoing…But i also see a lot of really beautiful aspects of people (not enough these days) and an amazing potential for inventiveness and progress that pains me we squander most of it. I think you said this too.
          One problem we must solve is this idea of us or them…its killing us all.
          I think my point was maybe how we say these things could change as well…not so much this is how it is, but this is how it was, now what can it be going forward.

          And I think your idea was if we don’t change the mindsets of greed aggression and the psychopathic tendency’s of our people as well as leaders we wont see any change at all…

          Great linked article below on the psychopath in power…i don’t agree with its assertion that civilization had to grow out of a psychopathic mindset but it does make some interesting points on how and why they seek power..


      • Chernynkaya says:

        Chaz-- I love that reply--the tone as well as the message. and I concur wholeheartedly.

        • chazmania says:

          Thank you….makes my key pounding not for nothing..

          Its interesting we spend so much time doing this posting thing…

          i feel compelled from the pain i feel observing such foolish human behavior creating such foolish human suffering..

  5. Abbyrose86 says:

    Great article. Sadly I can’t watch the video…technical issues.

    Change is difficult for most people, and especially if they are so invested in their own current view of the paradigms they have been subjected to and have been indoctrinated into believing.

    I couldn’t agree more, providing the information and educating is key to making REAL change possible.

    SO many thoughts here….I’m not sure how to really get the masses to SEE that the current system isn’t working and that paradigms MUST change.

    • chazmania says:

      Hi Abby….
      I think its not necessarily all the answer but its a radical departure from our present norm and thinking and that is the real point..to give us alternative perspectives and the very fact we can have an alternative perspective..i think that is the value of the movie..brake people out of the notion that this is all there is and this is how it has been and will always be…i find that thinking defeatist and the real reason change is so hard to bring about…fear based on survival perpetuated and encouraged by the power structure in place that wants to perpetuate its own kind at the exploitation of the rest of us…To think outside the norm lets you see the reality of the norm…you can not see what the whole house looks like by staring out one of its windows.

  6. choicelady says:

    Thought provoking, chaz -- but there is an assumption I’d question in the notion we spend “more time” killing one another and a second that we need a massive realignment in thinking.

    History is not linear. It’s not “in every day and every way we’re getting better and better”. We have waxed and waned as people over thousands and thousands of years. We also have “combined and uneven development” in which we, Americans especially, are taught ONLY the history of the top 7 percent or so of the world’s reality. Back in the 60s British, French, and some US historians began digging into
    micro history of everyday life. The results were mind boggling. While yes wars were waged over tiny amounts of trade and economic issues, from feudalism to industrial capitalism, everyday life for the majority was remarkable in its egalitarianism, fairness, and absence of violence.

    Should anyone be interested, I’d refer folks to Fernand Braudel, E.P. Thompson, Joan Thirsk, Heidi Wunder, et al. for these remarkable (and fairly readable) articles and books on this aspect of very basic history. This 600-year period was graced by a view of economics that asserted the primary, ONLY, reason for economic activity was to create the greatest self sufficiency for the largest number of people. Thompson has denoted the process as the operation of a ‘moral economy’ in which the value of sustainability for the majority was primary.

    This view is the antidote to “old, rich, white men” history. That’s the tip of the iceberg and commands very little of human resources until the centralization of governmental power (late 18th c.) and the rise of centralized economic power (early 19th c.) Then all bets are off and yes, we ALL get dragged into the maw of the machine, political and economic.

    In our contemporary time, however, what you’re seeing in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya etc. is a manifestation of what Paul Hawken calls, “Blessed Unrest”. It is a GLOBAL movement made of tiny to moderate-sized local movements to take BACK the moral economic authority from this global machine. It’s making surprising headway, and I recommend his book of this title highly.

    In other words, while we yuppies and middle class folks may indeed need a “vision cleaning” and a reorganization of perspective, those we rarely see have already done and are doing it. There is once again a combined and uneven development, and it may be the better formally educated that are lagging this time. But it IS happening everywhere. And as with all history, there will be a tipping point at which time the global bloat of corporate infrastructure will become unsustainable to the point that small and more efficient local sustainability will prevail. It is the record of history -- smaller IS more beautiful -- we have no reason to believe cannot and will not occur -- because it already is.

    For guidance look DOWN the economic ladder rather than up or even sideways. Our path to liberation of the mind, body, polity, and labors is being forged by people we barely notice. We’d be wise to take notice and learn from them.

    • escribacat says:

      Fantastic post, CL. (I read this a couple days ago but haven’t had time to respond). I am going to check into these authors you mention. It reminds me of this amazing program I have been watching called “Manor House.” It’s an experiment where a bunch of volunteers went to live in a manor house for three months and role played the lives of Edwardian aristocracy and their servants. One family played the role of the Lord & Lady et al, and a dozen or so played the role of the servants. The results were really interesting. At the end, the Lord and Lady had become dependent on the servants and lulled by their beautiful easy lifestyle. They were oblivious to the suffering of the people downstairs. The servants had a really rough time with 18 hour days and almost no time off from their endless menial chores. There was a lot of drama and suffering but by the end they had figured out how to survive and had grown really close and learned a lot from the experience. Anyway, I’m not quite doing it justice. The program packed a lot of punch.

      Anyway, thanks for another great post.

      • chazmania says:

        The reason people fall into those roles so easily is becasue they are already predisposed indoctrinated into certain beliefs about those roles….The Aristocracy has every reason to perpetuate those roles..and we see now how the corporatist keep perpetuation the roles as master servant..

        Back in the 70’s a smiler study was done with students being prisoners and prison guards..they had to cut it short due to the trauma that was happening to the people involved both prisoner and guard..

        I did some minor acting in NYC when i lived there and when you put on a costume you even surprise yourself how quickly you take on your idea of who and what that costume represents..
        Still this is based around what you believe and what you have been taught to believe..NOTHING is written in stone…that is the one human fallacy, there are NO absolutes and that belief gets us in trouble

      • choicelady says:

        Hi -- I just saw this. I remember seeing ABOUT the show but not the show itself. I wondered how easily the “lord and lady” would slide into the emotions of privilege. I am not sure I ever could. I worked my way through parts of college cleaning houses. You can’t scrub someone’s toilet and EVER take other people who do work for you for granted. At least I can’t!

        It is important, I think, to be aware of what other people have been through, past and present, both for the energy we get knowing people did exercise different capacities at different times. Much of my work historically centered on what authority women had in U.S. colonial days and how, inch by inch, law by law, they were stripped of their rights to “free” their property so males could invest it (women tended to save it for their kids.) MA finally just cut to the chase in 1836 and made wives the property of their husbands. Easier that way. But women were NOT always powerless of subjugated, and it’s critical to understand the structures that lead to relative autonomy and those that lead more to class and gender and racial domination. If we can figure out what gives us more authority over our own lives -- we can argue more forcibly for those kinds of changes.

        Certainly master and servant would NOT be my starting point!

    • chazmania says:

      Maybe a clarification of my thought, we spend more time dealing with killing each other then most of us are actively participating…many of you Yuppies may spend all your time massaging your shockras (or what ever you call that stuff) but a lot of us are getting a good financial beat down due to the amount of resources going into a small efficient group doing the killing for us…
      Our Well organized death machines work beyond most Americans perceptions, eyes hidden from the horrors so out of sight out of mind..
      And again the indoctrination into the system is deep and fear based as could be your own motive for pushing back the idea of changing it..OR you benefit from it as you have become adept at “working” the system as many people have these days.
      And of course seek to perpetuate it..Just don’t look at how it effects the greater world..Better to close down to small entities and ignore that..take care of your space and your own…make that efficient sounds all wonderful…that nicely packed meat product has no gory details of how it was made.
      We also need to consider the corruption inherent in the system and no real way to deal with it as it poisons the people involved in it by its very nature..AND ALWAYS favors the powerful that seek it and then that use that power to exploit and abuse the lesser..Many find it convenient to ignore this especially when they are not the ones suffering. And to ignore it is to contribute to it even indirectly.
      The waste and the abuse of the whole world is the end result of a system that benefits only one group of people by the exploitation of the rest is inherently flawed and dangerous to our survival…Watch the movie then come back and tell me how you feel..

      • AdLib says:

        chazmania, it’s a good policy at The Planet not to assume about other members (you know the old joke about the word “assume”). Our membership is very activist here, very anti-plutocrat/corporate and we try to bring people together to take action.

        FYI, Choicelady has likely been involved in more concrete actions and accomplishments in the areas you’ve addressed in your article than nearly anyone else here at The Planet and on most other Progressive sites.

        I put a great deal of weight into her insight, especially concerning the silent majority out there.

        It’s to our benefit to pool our strengths, even when we have different POVs in specific areas of the principles we share. And when it comes to strength in confronting the corporate machine out there, you couldn’t be luckier than to have Choicelady as an ally.

        • whatsthatsound says:

          frankly, from the response I question whether OP really, actually read what c-lady wrote. I call upon the writer to read her comments again, and see if he/she still considers any of the presumptions justifiable. And whether perhaps an apology is in order.

      • choicelady says:

        “You Yuppies”??? Kind of a big assumption there.

        This blog, more than any, is devoted to pushing back corporate power, especially in the military-industrial complex we universally at the Planet detest. You don’t know ANY of us and what we’ve done or are doing. What started out as a thoughtful reflection on the degree to which, yes, there are huge power blocks trying to strangle the WORLD and willing to do it by killing, has turned into an attack on us. We, whom you do NOT yet know. Big assumption on your part, chaz

        You are assuming we have not put our lives on the line (have you?) to end this power and corruption. You are also belittling the millions of people globally who are in resistance putting THEIR lives on the line. Are you?

        Nothing is all and always one sided. Nothing. People can and have resisted corrupt power throughout all human history. We keep that tradition here as do millions throughout the world.

        So ranting at us, whom you do not know, is pretty self indulgent. Maybe, just maybe, you’ve found a place where you are with people who ACT, who don’t just TALK and who make change and always have. Welcome to the Planet. We trust you will take the time to question as well as decree. You might find many of us out in front of you from whom you can learn and, more important, whom you can join. You will also find many of us who are in the same position as you and who have found support and help from us along the way. Just saying that we’re possibly NOT the dismissable categories of people whom you so ruthlessly demonize.

        • chazmania says:

          Chiocelady….I humbly apologize..As Adlib pointed out..i may have misread the “Feel” of the post…
          Coming from the HP i think i am a bit traumatized and still have a lot of my dukes up and anger over being attacked for the slightest comment not in line with the neo corporatist…Living in LA has its down side too when you are surrounded by fake liberals driving a land rover right in front of your exit near forcing you off the road. My view of yuppies is self indulgent holier then thou rich folks waring the style and fashion of awareness but possessing nun of it…Maybe it was the trigger word for me.
          I watch ever day the mind numbing dronisam all around me..even people i work with in the creative field are mostly so indoctrinated into the system that they don’t even consider anything else…And on and on…
          I don’t think i so much directed this all at you personally…its just a lot of built up animosity for what i perceived as one of the core problems that of conformity…And this idea that becasue the past is the past then the future must be only a slight variation of the past and this kind of limited thinking i find wholly irritating..Not to say you are guilty…

          All that said i do not think i am used to decent people around me..you are all so few and far between…I have to check in with my pavlovas dog reaction to criticism..As Adlib says maybe i can take the time to learn something as i am being hypocritical to say no one learns when i wont…
          And i despise Hypocritical..these days especially…

          My deepest Apologies…..

          • choicelady says:


            We welcome you, chazmania. We are all very different from blue collar to union folks, from a couple of homeless people to professionals, on to people from faith communities that don’t suck (that’s my niche at the moment) with backgrounds in every conceivable issues and idea area.

            Actually, no apology is needed since I figured as much but just wanted to clarify -- we aren’t the buffoons at HP. Did get a bit of a snit -- one usually needs to KNOW someone before disliking them! But all said, this is a changed setting, new people, a new day. I did not actually take it personally so much as got protective of all of us who’ve hammered out these discussions and relationships over the months and years so we can trade information and learn from one another -- not slap labels on each other, especially not at first blush. There are several of us who’ve shared some powerful experiences in the past -- not even knowing one another -- and have anti-corporate, anti-military energies deep in our bones.

            The Planet is where fake liberals -- we all have our problems with them -- don’t have a place. We all well know the HP post-traumatic syndrome! It’s not just neo-corporatism but even poorly thought out progressivism that generates snark and worse over at HP {spit}. You can’t say boo about anything over there without engendering someone’s superiority, and at the Planet that honestly NEVER happens which is why your rejoinder was a shock. We have spirited disagreements,, but we don’t get on each other’s case personally.

            I lived in LA and had to laugh in total sympathy with your observations. One Sunday morning I was driving west on Wilshire with a jag in the right hand land that is usually for parking. Not sure driving there is legal at any point, but I AM sure that when the open space ran out for him and I proceeded on without deferring to him, HE was completely shocked his hot car did not win his right to cut in front of me where another car happened to be, BTW. He leaned on the horn and provided the Universal Sign of Disrespect despite the fact he’d not signaled or indicated that, being in the right turn only lane, he had a desire to drive straight ahead. So Mr. Rich Guy dogged my bumper -- I drive a 10-year-old Saturn -- until he got infuriated at my indifference and lack of deference to his obvious wealth, and finally turned -- screeched -- north on Highland.

            I have spent the majority of my life with union working folks. I am deeply unimpressed by corporatism in any form and highly impressed by the work people do to take back their world from that mindset, power, and control. I respect the courage most of the folks at the Planet have about speaking truth to power and fighting the theft of democracy. As you will come to know, we ACT as well as blog. We turn out, organize, mobilize and most of us at some time or other place originated or disseminated a lot of ideas Ms. AH claims as her own work now.

            One of the things we do discuss is how often we are lied to about our history, hence my discussion. If we knew that once we had lives of vastly greater authority over our work, society, and governance, and we saw how it’s eroding, it gives us the tools to reclaim a new version and vision of that authority. If slaves today were free people before, then we can BE free people again. It’s learning what helps that along, what works, what does not. When we talk about worker and community ownership and control over businesses that make real things, we are drawing from the past AND creating new ways of doing that in the future. It’s the lies about who we were that keep us chained. It’s like the Big Lie from the religious right that America is a Christian nation. No. It is NOT. We won’t be free if they get their way -- so we have to look at the truth and stand against the perpetuation of more lies. That was my only point. And I’ll make it again -- it’s eye opening to many people to see where we came from actually gives us the tools for where we’re going. That huge steps forward are being made daily by people the MSM are too busy to notice. But we must notice them and help and do things ourselves. That’s all -- the past is not a determinant but does have useful info we can draw upon.

            So welcome, keep posting and talking, just remember -- we’re none of us AH and her trolls! We’ll be fine.

            Thank you for your concern. Everything is all right! It’s very kind of you to offer an apology though, and I appreciate it!

            • chazmania says:

              Thank you C’lady…i think the C in your name also represents class.. and i do not mean the stacked up hierarchical version either….I needed a good dose of humble pie…Adlib gave me a good schooling and Coffygod offered me cookies but i suspect he bakes some herb into it ;>)

              I think after i pressed send i knew i was gona regret it….I always get that strange uncomfortable feeling im being a dick and have to listen to it more…
              I found these days i have gotten so much more harder then i used to be..i think i have gotten kind of crotchety in my older years dealing with my own share of dicks….
              Oh i loved your road story….ha!

              Also i have a very dear friend that is a deeply christian lady that i love very much and she comes from a good place of that…I personally have my doubts about any deity in the conventional sense but i think we do have some sort of life force in the universe that is about truth and beauty..

              Anyway thank you for being as kind as i should have been initially….

          • coffeegod says:

            Dude, you can come sit with me on the bad posters bench. I called someone a troll in my first few days here. I got schooled pretty quickly.

            In the end, it’s all good. HP {spit} is a poisonous environment. Glad you’re here.

            Want some cookies?

            • choicelady says:

              coffee -- timeouts are only seconds long. You been here a while? C’mon back in.

            • chazmania says:

              Yeah….i need a cookie after that bad taste of my own foot in my mouth.

          • AdLib says:

            You are one cool and principled person, Chaz! Cheers!

            • AdLib says:

              IMO, humility is the mark of a principled person.

              You can only truly judge someone by their actions and when people are faced with an uncomfortable choice and they choose principle first, it tells a lot about their character, something very complimentary indeed.

            • chazmania says:

              Thanks Adlib…I am humbled…Humility i find to be a good thing to have. You can learn from it.

        • bito says:

          C’Lady, Please pardon my smile.
          “You Yuppie.” 😉

  7. Harry says:

    I like your drift. The condition of humanity is one of being ‘lost in thought’, and we have to get out of our minds and our comfort zones, see the world as it really is, without fear, and consciously evolve to change what we don’t like in what we see. I believe one of the keys to this actually happening will be when the planet fully wakes up to what really happened on 9/11. That is happening, and won’t be stopped. The hypnotic trance most of us were put into on that day is wearing off -- for me that came about seven years back.

    We can do a whole lot better than we are doing, and we shall. Humanity Rocks -- we just don’t think we do, through religious, cultural conditioning, and so we act that out. Time to wake up and smell the coffee:)

    • chazmania says:

      Well said…..Religion has tendencies to teach by teaching by abuse by sin and fear. you are automatically wrong and bad..this creates all sorts of mental anomalies that play themselves out in the dysfunction of our society..Add the corruption of the monetary system and you have the recipe we are all now forced to swallow.
      You touch on something interesting…lost in thought, or fantasy thinking creates all kinds of problems. It does not address problems becasue it does not recognize them when you are that far out of touch with reality…i think people have mixed the idea that to dream is creative way to far to the point of making up fanciful ideas of the present reality..Fear has a way of messing with the mind to create “relief” from the pain fear causes..Its a known fact that abused children like Sybil created whole other personalities in order to deal with the abuse and that were unknown to her…In a milder sense people check out of reality and start to believe the Rush’s and Hanite’s etc.
      Our culture is one of fear cultivated and perpetuated by MONEY and the lack of it….A system of the abundance of scarcity created to sell you solutions….

      • Harry says:

        This is a very stimulating topic, chazmania, and touches depths that need airing. Thanks for posting it:)

        By ‘lost in thought’ I meant more that we identify with our thoughts -- I say my thoughts are who I am, rather than my thoughts are just that, thoughts -- activity in my brain, which just comes and goes. Our thoughts are generated by responding to others’ thoughts, way on back to the dawn of human awareness, and are always based on an incomplete understanding of reality. Once we see this, we can then move forward, evolve in fact -- the first species on the planet to choose its own evolution. No outcome is certain, but we can’t plead ignorance once we’ve seen through the illusion. We can choose where humanity goes next, and that, to me, is hugely empowering, and a sure antidote to despair.

        • chazmania says:

          I like your take…
          We are formed by thoughts from day one and from what we “perceive” as reality..Based on outside stimulus.
          Einstein once said he was unsure if he was remembering a memory or the memory of a memory..
          We as children are blank slates. we then pile on information and awareness grows..they say at first you don’t even know you have parents..you are a singularity and build on that as your awareness moves out from yourself to take in the environment..
          Studies showed that fear resides in the same place as empathy and can not occupy that space together, one will push out the other, if a child grows up in fear it will lack empathy if it grows in security and love it has an abundance of empathy…This is not an absolute but a tendency..many factors come into play too…the genetic makeup and ability to interpret environments play a significant factor

          • Harry says:

            I think we’re definitely on the same page here, chaz.

            In our first years we have no sense of any separate self. That only comes by relating to ‘stuff out there’ and forming a mental picture of who we are. This happens both on the personal and universal level, of course, and as I see humanity as being barely adolescent at this time, we still have plenty of image-forming to do in relation to that Stuff. We’re like kids flailing about, trying to make sense of our hormones. But this too can pass:)

            • chazmania says:

              Good thought….if one considered that we are still just evolving and still quite young then its a bit easier to grasp why we behave so badly..But i dont know if the Planet (earth) can be as patient for much longer till we get our act together..we are causing some serious problems in the echo system that even now may be irreversible…

      • choicelady says:

        All religion, huh? Wow. Another sweeping generalization based on…what? When faith people were in the leadership and on the front lines of everything from anti-slavery to anti-war movements, that seems a bit over the top. Faith leaders today are in the forefront of civil rights, support for GLBT equality in all ways, support for women’s reproductive health care rights -- wow. That’s pretty reductio ad absurdum to put everyone in the same boat.

        • chazmania says:

          Well i see i have started on a really wrong foot with you…And i regret my mistake…I actually do not disagree with you…My sweep has more to do with in my mind religion has actually now hindered our human progress more then advanced it…these days for sure..But It was monks that started scientific study…It was many religious people that have tried to do good in the world and have the calling for what i see as the right reasons..but still many have used religion as a manipulation strategy and con to hide behind..again i have a good dose of animosity for them…I do again apologize for my mocking of the yuppie..it was unfair in your case…

          • choicelady says:

            As you get to know me and several of us, you’ll see we have been fighting the religious right with all we have -- even as some of us are engaged seriously with issues of faith and how it must quest for justice for all people. NO exceptions. Rules are for people who are fearful. Of course many of them think rules are for YOU and not for THEM which is another huge issue. We’ve had many long discussions about the power they seek over other people, but here those of us who think about the issue a lot tend to focus solely on justice and inclusive and compassionate love for our fellow human beings. Again -- NO exceptions. It’s a different world, one we hope you will like!

          • Artist50 says:

            My take on religion is a little different too. But I’m older (more hippie than yuppie -- perhaps that’s why that is a negative connotation) and I’ve decided to take what I want from religion and leave what I want behind. As you age you realize you can’t solve or resolve all these issues so you do the best you can to live with yourself and realize you aren’t responsible for everything bad ever done in the name of religion because it wasn’t done by god but by some man.

            And most movements and good deeds have had religious people behind them. So my conclusion is that people are by and large GOOD and when you meet an evil person there is something lacking in them (good). Your description of Sybil is spot on because what does a child have to fight evil with? Nothing but their soul -- so they protect it -- poor lambs. I doubt any amount of love can heal that soul, I don’t know. I hope this makes some sense but I try to look at the good people are doing -- certainly not saying we don’t have a long way to go and yes people are very resistant to any change. That’s another post.

  8. KQuark says:

    Now I don’t know if it’s gonna be a repackaged version of Zeitgeist or what but I saw Zeitgeist.

    I liked the movie but I think it focused way too much on hidden grand conspiracies. For one thing the cold hard fact is the 911 conspiracy is incorrect. Yes there are thousands of conspiracies around us every day but they aren’t hidden they are in the open and they all involve people with money and power trying to control everyone else. It’s been that way since the Roman times in western civilization.

    The part on religion was spot on but even that I came to my own conclusion that religion as we know it is just myth.

    Change is going to happen but it’s never fast enough for people because in our relatively small lifespans change is excruciatingly slow. Social change occurs relatively quickly compared to economic change because it does not have the bonds of limited resources. In other words you can free your mind much more cheaply than fill you gas tank. I’m not a fan of the tear it down and build it back up people for change because it never changes the fundamental dynamic, economically speaking. If you don’t believe me look at Russia.

    I also am not ethnocentric at all when it comes to positive change. Humans can advance in other parts of the world if the US does not get it’s act together as far as I’m concerned. But even with the talk of America being a third world country. Life is better for the vast majority of people here than for 90% of the other people on the planet.

    Bottom line if you want to destroy this planet’s resources super quick say in the next 100 years flip those numbers around and bring 90% of the population into “middle class” status.

    My biggest problem with Zeitgeist was it offered no real solutions. I mean really what will ending the Fed and IMF really do to end things like economical disparity. No monetary system is ever equitable. What do they think everyone all of a sudden is gonna get money for nothing?

    • chazmania says:

      Watch the movie…it is a far more mature and advanced concept…some great intellectuals scientists and thinkers giving their opinions..
      Peter Joseph is evolving and so are his films…don’t so easily dismiss it.
      Watch this one…It makes a lot of really valid points…and has a lot in common with the movements we see in the middle east…

  9. whatsthatsound says:

    I haven’t heard of this movie, so am not influenced by the negative reviews you refer to, but the things being said by the interviewees in the trailer I find no fault with. A greed based system will not and cannot survive, and does act like a cancer or parasite.

    “Only after the last tree has been cut down, Only after the last river has been poisoned, Only after the last fish has been caught, Only then will you find that money cannot be eaten.”
    -Cree Prophecy

    • KQuark says:

      This always gets people mad at me but the only way to not gobble up everything Gaia provides for us is to stop our species numbers from exploding. It’s the 800 pound gorilla in any debate about the environment and sustainability but as long as we have net positive population growth the planet is doomed.

      • funksands says:

        KQuark you are so right. We have six billion people shitting into a balloon every day. How can anyone think that doesn’t have consequences?

      • chazmania says:

        You make a valid point….Studies show that some mice colonies stop breading when food is scarce…Will humans hit this wall? or will we be smart enough to do it ourselves if we start to pay attention and be honest about the realities of our effect on the planet.

      • AlphaBitch says:

        You hit on one of the Blov’s button issues, KQ. It’s one of the few charities he adamantly refuses to give up on -Zero Population Growth.

        Humans are like cancer cells to Earth, despite the fact we believe we are the highest beings here.

        I studied Population Dynamics while studying wildlife biology in college. You cannot sustain an ecosystem (or a planet) with unlimited population growth.

        • choicelady says:

          I was active in ZPG until it started its anti-immigrant stance and became blatantly racist. Don’t know if it still is. Holding the line on population is critical, indeed, but there is more reason to curtail WHITE, prosperous breeding than Southern hemisphere reproduction -- white prosperous folks consume and waste disproportionally. ZPG principles ruled my own family’s reproduction -- my parents believed in mere replacement, and most of my family UNDER reproduces. So we’ve done our part! Problem -- the religious right breeds like bunnies. On purpose. It’s kind of worrisome to think they’ll outpace us. Ick.

          • chazmania says:

            I have heard Neocons say that population growth was essential in progress…the idea we have to keep making worker drones for the expansion of the system….They all talk about growth…GNP all this nonsense..ignore sustainability just make more junk and people to work and buy it…Its such a myopic mentality..
            It baffles me that these people are the dominant power and leaders of the world…Insanity in my view…We ignore our intellectuals and prop up the crazy’s..

          • AlphaBitch says:

            I agree, CL. Didn’t keep up w/ their racist bent -- will look into it and change if needed.

            Agree totally as to the consumption part. The Blov and I never replicated, even though I am/was “mom” to my hordes of Afghan chirren!

            I think it so sad that families (like Afghans) have so many children, and so little resources to care for them. Yet heaven forbid that anyone outside their culture be allowed to adopt any.

            The Pup told me of a young girl whose family (their neighbor) was slaughtered by the T’ban. His father is a doctor, and an unbelievable sweet, caring man. He took in the young neighbor girl, and helped rear her until she was 17. At that time, her relatives in Iran(?) came to “claim” her so that they could sell her in marriage. Sad but true.

            Another true story: while on a tour at an amazing ranch here in Central TX, my husband and I were approached by a young man who wanted to know how many children we had. He was saddened to hear we had none, because we were “the type who needs to be breeding, not these Mexicans”. I was speechless- hard to do for me. Fortunately, I knew the ranch owner well and told him about that offensive comment. The rancher was livid, and said that young man would never again set foot on his ranch. He hasn’t, to my knowledge.

            All that being said: my grandmother had 15 children, 13 of whom were living while I was a child. I have 32 first cousins on that side. We did our share of damage, both to the planet and to Aunt Peggy’s back yard. And we weren’t religious right. Just Lutherans in need of farm help.

            • choicelady says:

              Go Lutherans! The sad reality in many families today is that many hands are STILL needed for family survival. I do not automatically dismiss large families as “irresponsible” at ALL. (Or trying to take over the universe for Jay-zuz, or themselves.) I lived next to an Irish American family with 12 kids because it was survival -- they all were their parents’ “social security” as well as help for one another. It would be so good finally to be in a world where economic survival did not depend on that. But it’s sure not evenly distributed, is it? I’m still boggled by PocketWatch’s observation that all the world could live in Texas! Gaia needs tending, but we can find solutions so long as that is true IF we don’t destroy the planet’s ability to replicate its own fabric with carbon and contaminants. It’s the latter -- esp. the slimate change deniers -- that scares me!

        • coffeegod says:

          But if there were ZPO, how would the Duggars, Octomom and Kate Gosslin make a living?

          • choicelady says:

            Well, there you go. Over-reproducing as a cottage industry. Kids always were a source of income, usually from their work, but hey -- it’s the 21st Century. Why not just exploit the little buggers? Gotta keep up with the times.

        • PocketWatch says:

          AB -- two words that should be taught in every grade from K through college… “Carrying Capacity”

      • PocketWatch says:

        KQ -- This comment is NOT an effort to claim that population growth isn’t a problem, but, as always, I once did a little math… (who knew?)

        It turns out that every man, woman and child on the planet would fit in the state of Texas with each human being having about 1,100 sf of room. A family of 4 would have 4,400 sf to live in, etc.

        That says nothing about living standards, or acreage to support everyone, or all of that. But it does put things a little in perspective.

        We look at a place like NYC or Tokyo, and imagine that we are overcrowding the planet. We are not. We are overcrowding little places on the planet.

        This interesting fact that I have pointed out solves nothing, but I find it fascinating when discussing population growth. The reality is that most of the planet is empty of humans. We clump a lot.

        • KQuark says:

          Well let’s do some calculations. It has been estimated that it takes 1 acre of arable land to feed one US adult per year. Now let’s for argument sake say we use much more farmland per person than the rest of the world. I’ll just use the arbitrary factor of 5 to 1. The estimated population of the world is 6,903,450,663.


          So using our factor we need 1,380,690,133 acres of arable land to feed the people we have now.

          Now there is an estimated 41,440,170 k^2 = 10,024,000,000 of gross arable acreage on the planet according to Wiki and we use less than half of the arable land now.


          So we use almost 13.5% of the arable land on the planet now. You can say the glass is 86.5% full but I doubt if we got anyway near even say 25% arable land use that it would not lead to massive problems.

        • Kalima says:

          Japan is just a small island PW, we all have to live where our work is. People come and go, crowding or houses built close to each other was going on in the Edo and Meiji periods, it’s how people want to live. Those who don’t, move out to the suburbs when they retire. I’m not even sure that if they were given more space, they would know how to use it. I don’t hear many complaints about overcrowding here, it all depends what you are used to, and where most of the jobs are.

          There is also a huge aging population, with many younger people opting not to have children, so sooner or later, the numbers will drop considerably.

          • PocketWatch says:

            Kali, I think it’s in the nature of humans to gather together. All these “rugged individual, I do it all myself” types are delusional. It DOES take a village, and we are nothing if we do not have a tribe around us.

            We are more of sheep than of cats in that regard.

            Not being judgmental, but, as I pointed out, even the 7B of us really don’t take up a lot of acreage when considering the whole planet.

            Fact is, we DON’T use space efficiently or well, and that’s the problem.

            • chazmania says:

              I have to agree….we are a COLLECTIVE species and really CAN NOT survive on our own…this is why i do NOT understand the penchant for infighting other then this is a taught dysfunctional anomaly driven by the monetary system. it creates the adversary that is your brethren. Thus the unsustainable and waste of resources that accounts for a lot of LOST potential all around

            • Kalima says:

              That’s my point, there isn’t enough space to use, and they do have their places where people are not allowed to build anything because it’s designated as a national treasure. The Buddhist and Shinto shrines all had first dubs on the best locations centuries ago. We live in rabbit houses mostly, new spacious apartments are too expensive, and who wants to pay $1500 a month just for a caretaker to bring the mail to your door?

              I should be sleeping, so good night.

      • whatsthatsound says:

        Yeah, I hear you on that. One can love the human race and still dispassionately assert that our way of life is already harming the planet, and will utterly deplete its ability to sustain homeostasis if the population continues to explode and as more countries move into the economic status of having cars, computers and indoor home heating for everyone.

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