One thing that i have always scratched my head over is how is it possible that with all the potential of the human species with the ability to create beauty art science why do we spend more time and energy on trying to kill each other then trying to uplift our species?

This film Below is one of the most profound looks at how we can actually change. But the shift has to start mentally first

The idea of the possibility of a whole radical shift in thinking is not easy for most that have been systematically indoctrinated into worshiping the present system. The system rulers have used the clever ruse of fear or of lack of security based around maintaining the system…..Most people can not imagine another way because it has ingrained itself on our very Psyche..

But if we do not change that and do it quick we may see the entire system crumble and the species has the potential of going extinct due to the destruction of not only us but the whole planet….Every environmental system is in decline or gone….This is not hyperbola this is studied documented and observed by the best in the fields and it is all but ignored in the public discourse…

It really is up to us to make people aware….And do not be persuaded from watching this because of the negative associations being made by the corporate  propaganda run “news” system..the rulers on high fear information the most..information undoes the lies they have used to create a culture of cubical zombie drones that perpetuate the system….it really has become no different then a cult. When anyone wants to leave the cult the whole cult acts as one to destroy decent…Please watch it and spread it…The future does depend on it.

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Abbyrose86
Member

As I read all the wonderful thought provoking comments on this thread…all I could think was “WOW”…and how glad I am to be here and a part of PlanetPOV. Seriously. The thoughts and opinions expressed are so fantastic. I especially appreciated the back and forth between Chaz and Choicelady. Those comments, although they started out with some animosity turned into something really great to read and ponder.

WE all are products of our own upbringing, experiences, genetics, family, social structure, education, sex, ethnic background, etc. As a result we all have the opportunity to present divergent opinions and perspectives on subjects such as this one.

Change is often hard for most, and changing ideas that are so ingrained and in which so many have a vested interest in is quite difficult.

For myself, I have struggled with change. Even if or when, I didn’t even realize I was fighting the changes on a subconscious level. I thought and believed I was more open to the change than I actually was…it was a real eye opener, to accept my own limitations in this endeavor.

I think in some ways many don’t really think about it, they just ‘do’, do what they are expected to do and what they themselves believe they should do, based on many indoctrinated concepts. I think that inhibits the ability for many to really change their ways of thinking or even their ideas about life.

Anyway…this was a fabulous thread. SO much food for thought!

Chernynkaya
Member

This story seems apropos. I heard it on “House” and followed up.

In 1844, there was a preacher in Vermont who told his followers that the world was coming to an end on April 18. His followers gave away all their belongings and they all stood together in a field waiting for the Rapture. When that didn’t happen, the preacher said he must have made a mistake, and he recalculated that the REAL end of the world was actually on October 22.

On that day, he had even more followers waiting in the field for the End. The sun rose on the morning of October 23 like any other day, and October 22 came to be called “The Great Disappointment.” One follower wrote that “Our fondest hopes and expectations were blasted, and such a spirit of weeping came over us as I never experienced before… We wept, and wept, till the day dawn.”

The preacher never gave up and he and his growing number of followers remained convinced that the End was nigh. Instead of being discredited as a crank, this preacher became famous and popular. After each false prophesy, his congregation grew.

His name was William Miller, and he is credited for founding several major religious denominations, including Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Advent Christians. Later movements found inspiration in Preacher Miller’s emphasis on Bible prophecy. His own followers are known as Millerites.

So go figure.

KillgoreTrout
Member

cher;

Chernynkaya
Member

Killgore! I love that movie so much! Yeah, Preacher Miller is like those guys! 😆

KillgoreTrout
Member

cher, a true masterpiece of film making. Incredibly funny and, for the most part, true. Except their actually being a savior named Brian.
I always think of this scene when the fundies start spouting their apocalyptic bullshit.

choicelady
Member

Cher – that may indeed be one of the saddest delusions ever. We’re about to see the next. An engineer in Oakland, CA is leading a movement claiming the Rapture is coming May 21 and the end on October 21. True believers will not be affected, but the near believers – well, depends on how deeply they gave up the “world” and what they lost. I predict a wave of suicides at least toward the end of the year. NOT the engineer but his followers. He has this all over the world. It will be very sad if those who believe are destroyed by his foolishness. Yes they are gullible, but he’s a charlatan, and I will lay their desperation at his feet. There ought to be a way to make people have to compensate those whom they have deceived even if they themselves believe their own foolishness.

ghsts
Member

There’s a jobs bubble I would support, “Lemon Laws” for organized Religion (entropy is a sure thing, don’t hate the player hate the game.) Smiley

choicelady
Member

That would slow US down, not them! True believers just keep on keepin’ on. You have to value logic rather than magical thinking to be disillusioned.

ghsts
Member

Chazmania your article makes perfect sense to me, but we all have that cognitive dissonance thing going. The pragmatists wont even allow you to bring up those ideas without writing you off as lost. We often encounter that “surely we can all agree,” to be followed by; the system isn’t all bad, it would be too painful, it’s not the system it’s the people running it, we’re better than them, it can’t be done, and my favorite ‘every day we get a little closer to making this shit taste good.’

It is stunning to me how many folks aspire to humanism but are afraid of the stigma, being seen as weak or prey. Myths and cons fit better into their packaged education and hope only to be included as the chosen ones. “Unsociable social beings” we are, lord forgive me for quoting Kant, ‘just give me more time, less suffering’.

As a kid I bought into Leary’s “tune in, turn on and drop out,” not the drug fueled cliche of charlie sheen but more like ‘listen, act, dissent.’ It didn’t give me the American Dream, had brief moments of empowerment and as I loose my value as a wage slave it is scary sometimes. I know plenty of creative types that went with me but they never had the fear making rent, worry about status or safety, and most of them seem happy and fulfilled so I still have hope. Revolution at the level you are talking about can happen peacefully but for most it will be painful, change seems to be a survival tool not a choice.

KillgoreTrout
Member

chaz, Man is an aggressive animal. Man is also a greedy animal. Of course, the whole of mankind is not, there are some very decent people in this world.
Aggression, greed and the desire for power is what keeps the cycle of violence alive in the world. And I put most of the blame on governments. Greedy, power mad leaders that place no value on human life, other than their own.

“No matter how noble the objectives of a government, if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion–it is an evil government.”–Hoffer

Abbyrose86
Member

Great article. Sadly I can’t watch the video…technical issues.

Change is difficult for most people, and especially if they are so invested in their own current view of the paradigms they have been subjected to and have been indoctrinated into believing.

I couldn’t agree more, providing the information and educating is key to making REAL change possible.

SO many thoughts here….I’m not sure how to really get the masses to SEE that the current system isn’t working and that paradigms MUST change.

choicelady
Member

Thought provoking, chaz – but there is an assumption I’d question in the notion we spend “more time” killing one another and a second that we need a massive realignment in thinking.

History is not linear. It’s not “in every day and every way we’re getting better and better”. We have waxed and waned as people over thousands and thousands of years. We also have “combined and uneven development” in which we, Americans especially, are taught ONLY the history of the top 7 percent or so of the world’s reality. Back in the 60s British, French, and some US historians began digging into
micro history of everyday life. The results were mind boggling. While yes wars were waged over tiny amounts of trade and economic issues, from feudalism to industrial capitalism, everyday life for the majority was remarkable in its egalitarianism, fairness, and absence of violence.

Should anyone be interested, I’d refer folks to Fernand Braudel, E.P. Thompson, Joan Thirsk, Heidi Wunder, et al. for these remarkable (and fairly readable) articles and books on this aspect of very basic history. This 600-year period was graced by a view of economics that asserted the primary, ONLY, reason for economic activity was to create the greatest self sufficiency for the largest number of people. Thompson has denoted the process as the operation of a ‘moral economy’ in which the value of sustainability for the majority was primary.

This view is the antidote to “old, rich, white men” history. That’s the tip of the iceberg and commands very little of human resources until the centralization of governmental power (late 18th c.) and the rise of centralized economic power (early 19th c.) Then all bets are off and yes, we ALL get dragged into the maw of the machine, political and economic.

In our contemporary time, however, what you’re seeing in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya etc. is a manifestation of what Paul Hawken calls, “Blessed Unrest”. It is a GLOBAL movement made of tiny to moderate-sized local movements to take BACK the moral economic authority from this global machine. It’s making surprising headway, and I recommend his book of this title highly.

In other words, while we yuppies and middle class folks may indeed need a “vision cleaning” and a reorganization of perspective, those we rarely see have already done and are doing it. There is once again a combined and uneven development, and it may be the better formally educated that are lagging this time. But it IS happening everywhere. And as with all history, there will be a tipping point at which time the global bloat of corporate infrastructure will become unsustainable to the point that small and more efficient local sustainability will prevail. It is the record of history – smaller IS more beautiful – we have no reason to believe cannot and will not occur – because it already is.

For guidance look DOWN the economic ladder rather than up or even sideways. Our path to liberation of the mind, body, polity, and labors is being forged by people we barely notice. We’d be wise to take notice and learn from them.

escribacat
Member

Fantastic post, CL. (I read this a couple days ago but haven’t had time to respond). I am going to check into these authors you mention. It reminds me of this amazing program I have been watching called “Manor House.” It’s an experiment where a bunch of volunteers went to live in a manor house for three months and role played the lives of Edwardian aristocracy and their servants. One family played the role of the Lord & Lady et al, and a dozen or so played the role of the servants. The results were really interesting. At the end, the Lord and Lady had become dependent on the servants and lulled by their beautiful easy lifestyle. They were oblivious to the suffering of the people downstairs. The servants had a really rough time with 18 hour days and almost no time off from their endless menial chores. There was a lot of drama and suffering but by the end they had figured out how to survive and had grown really close and learned a lot from the experience. Anyway, I’m not quite doing it justice. The program packed a lot of punch.

Anyway, thanks for another great post.

choicelady
Member

Hi – I just saw this. I remember seeing ABOUT the show but not the show itself. I wondered how easily the “lord and lady” would slide into the emotions of privilege. I am not sure I ever could. I worked my way through parts of college cleaning houses. You can’t scrub someone’s toilet and EVER take other people who do work for you for granted. At least I can’t!

It is important, I think, to be aware of what other people have been through, past and present, both for the energy we get knowing people did exercise different capacities at different times. Much of my work historically centered on what authority women had in U.S. colonial days and how, inch by inch, law by law, they were stripped of their rights to “free” their property so males could invest it (women tended to save it for their kids.) MA finally just cut to the chase in 1836 and made wives the property of their husbands. Easier that way. But women were NOT always powerless of subjugated, and it’s critical to understand the structures that lead to relative autonomy and those that lead more to class and gender and racial domination. If we can figure out what gives us more authority over our own lives – we can argue more forcibly for those kinds of changes.

Certainly master and servant would NOT be my starting point!

Harry
Member
Harry

I like your drift. The condition of humanity is one of being ‘lost in thought’, and we have to get out of our minds and our comfort zones, see the world as it really is, without fear, and consciously evolve to change what we don’t like in what we see. I believe one of the keys to this actually happening will be when the planet fully wakes up to what really happened on 9/11. That is happening, and won’t be stopped. The hypnotic trance most of us were put into on that day is wearing off – for me that came about seven years back.

We can do a whole lot better than we are doing, and we shall. Humanity Rocks – we just don’t think we do, through religious, cultural conditioning, and so we act that out. Time to wake up and smell the coffee:)

KQµårk 死神
Member

Now I don’t know if it’s gonna be a repackaged version of Zeitgeist or what but I saw Zeitgeist.

I liked the movie but I think it focused way too much on hidden grand conspiracies. For one thing the cold hard fact is the 911 conspiracy is incorrect. Yes there are thousands of conspiracies around us every day but they aren’t hidden they are in the open and they all involve people with money and power trying to control everyone else. It’s been that way since the Roman times in western civilization.

The part on religion was spot on but even that I came to my own conclusion that religion as we know it is just myth.

Change is going to happen but it’s never fast enough for people because in our relatively small lifespans change is excruciatingly slow. Social change occurs relatively quickly compared to economic change because it does not have the bonds of limited resources. In other words you can free your mind much more cheaply than fill you gas tank. I’m not a fan of the tear it down and build it back up people for change because it never changes the fundamental dynamic, economically speaking. If you don’t believe me look at Russia.

I also am not ethnocentric at all when it comes to positive change. Humans can advance in other parts of the world if the US does not get it’s act together as far as I’m concerned. But even with the talk of America being a third world country. Life is better for the vast majority of people here than for 90% of the other people on the planet.

Bottom line if you want to destroy this planet’s resources super quick say in the next 100 years flip those numbers around and bring 90% of the population into “middle class” status.

My biggest problem with Zeitgeist was it offered no real solutions. I mean really what will ending the Fed and IMF really do to end things like economical disparity. No monetary system is ever equitable. What do they think everyone all of a sudden is gonna get money for nothing?

whatsthatsound
Member

I haven’t heard of this movie, so am not influenced by the negative reviews you refer to, but the things being said by the interviewees in the trailer I find no fault with. A greed based system will not and cannot survive, and does act like a cancer or parasite.

“Only after the last tree has been cut down, Only after the last river has been poisoned, Only after the last fish has been caught, Only then will you find that money cannot be eaten.”
-Cree Prophecy

KQµårk 死神
Member

This always gets people mad at me but the only way to not gobble up everything Gaia provides for us is to stop our species numbers from exploding. It’s the 800 pound gorilla in any debate about the environment and sustainability but as long as we have net positive population growth the planet is doomed.

funksands
Member

KQuark you are so right. We have six billion people shitting into a balloon every day. How can anyone think that doesn’t have consequences?

AlphaBitch
Member
AlphaBitch

You hit on one of the Blov’s button issues, KQ. It’s one of the few charities he adamantly refuses to give up on -Zero Population Growth.

Humans are like cancer cells to Earth, despite the fact we believe we are the highest beings here.

I studied Population Dynamics while studying wildlife biology in college. You cannot sustain an ecosystem (or a planet) with unlimited population growth.

choicelady
Member

I was active in ZPG until it started its anti-immigrant stance and became blatantly racist. Don’t know if it still is. Holding the line on population is critical, indeed, but there is more reason to curtail WHITE, prosperous breeding than Southern hemisphere reproduction – white prosperous folks consume and waste disproportionally. ZPG principles ruled my own family’s reproduction – my parents believed in mere replacement, and most of my family UNDER reproduces. So we’ve done our part! Problem – the religious right breeds like bunnies. On purpose. It’s kind of worrisome to think they’ll outpace us. Ick.

AlphaBitch
Member
AlphaBitch

I agree, CL. Didn’t keep up w/ their racist bent – will look into it and change if needed.

Agree totally as to the consumption part. The Blov and I never replicated, even though I am/was “mom” to my hordes of Afghan chirren!

I think it so sad that families (like Afghans) have so many children, and so little resources to care for them. Yet heaven forbid that anyone outside their culture be allowed to adopt any.

The Pup told me of a young girl whose family (their neighbor) was slaughtered by the T’ban. His father is a doctor, and an unbelievable sweet, caring man. He took in the young neighbor girl, and helped rear her until she was 17. At that time, her relatives in Iran(?) came to “claim” her so that they could sell her in marriage. Sad but true.

Another true story: while on a tour at an amazing ranch here in Central TX, my husband and I were approached by a young man who wanted to know how many children we had. He was saddened to hear we had none, because we were “the type who needs to be breeding, not these Mexicans”. I was speechless- hard to do for me. Fortunately, I knew the ranch owner well and told him about that offensive comment. The rancher was livid, and said that young man would never again set foot on his ranch. He hasn’t, to my knowledge.

All that being said: my grandmother had 15 children, 13 of whom were living while I was a child. I have 32 first cousins on that side. We did our share of damage, both to the planet and to Aunt Peggy’s back yard. And we weren’t religious right. Just Lutherans in need of farm help.

choicelady
Member

Go Lutherans! The sad reality in many families today is that many hands are STILL needed for family survival. I do not automatically dismiss large families as “irresponsible” at ALL. (Or trying to take over the universe for Jay-zuz, or themselves.) I lived next to an Irish American family with 12 kids because it was survival – they all were their parents’ “social security” as well as help for one another. It would be so good finally to be in a world where economic survival did not depend on that. But it’s sure not evenly distributed, is it? I’m still boggled by PocketWatch’s observation that all the world could live in Texas! Gaia needs tending, but we can find solutions so long as that is true IF we don’t destroy the planet’s ability to replicate its own fabric with carbon and contaminants. It’s the latter – esp. the slimate change deniers – that scares me!

coffeegod
Member

But if there were ZPO, how would the Duggars, Octomom and Kate Gosslin make a living?

choicelady
Member

Well, there you go. Over-reproducing as a cottage industry. Kids always were a source of income, usually from their work, but hey – it’s the 21st Century. Why not just exploit the little buggers? Gotta keep up with the times.

coffeegod
Member

Or there is this option: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

btw, my husband and I had one kid. We figured if we wanted another, we would adopt. Too many kids out there with no parents to bring another one into the world just for vanity.

PocketWatch
Member

AB – two words that should be taught in every grade from K through college… “Carrying Capacity”

PocketWatch
Member

KQ – This comment is NOT an effort to claim that population growth isn’t a problem, but, as always, I once did a little math… (who knew?)

It turns out that every man, woman and child on the planet would fit in the state of Texas with each human being having about 1,100 sf of room. A family of 4 would have 4,400 sf to live in, etc.

That says nothing about living standards, or acreage to support everyone, or all of that. But it does put things a little in perspective.

We look at a place like NYC or Tokyo, and imagine that we are overcrowding the planet. We are not. We are overcrowding little places on the planet.

This interesting fact that I have pointed out solves nothing, but I find it fascinating when discussing population growth. The reality is that most of the planet is empty of humans. We clump a lot.

KQµårk 死神
Member

Well let’s do some calculations. It has been estimated that it takes 1 acre of arable land to feed one US adult per year. Now let’s for argument sake say we use much more farmland per person than the rest of the world. I’ll just use the arbitrary factor of 5 to 1. The estimated population of the world is 6,903,450,663.

http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

So using our factor we need 1,380,690,133 acres of arable land to feed the people we have now.

Now there is an estimated 41,440,170 k^2 = 10,024,000,000 of gross arable acreage on the planet according to Wiki and we use less than half of the arable land now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arable_land

So we use almost 13.5% of the arable land on the planet now. You can say the glass is 86.5% full but I doubt if we got anyway near even say 25% arable land use that it would not lead to massive problems.

PocketWatch
Member

KQ – this is why I love math. Facts are important. I just wish our politicians and policy makers knew how to add and subtract!

Kalima
Admin

Japan is just a small island PW, we all have to live where our work is. People come and go, crowding or houses built close to each other was going on in the Edo and Meiji periods, it’s how people want to live. Those who don’t, move out to the suburbs when they retire. I’m not even sure that if they were given more space, they would know how to use it. I don’t hear many complaints about overcrowding here, it all depends what you are used to, and where most of the jobs are.

There is also a huge aging population, with many younger people opting not to have children, so sooner or later, the numbers will drop considerably.

PocketWatch
Member

Kali, I think it’s in the nature of humans to gather together. All these “rugged individual, I do it all myself” types are delusional. It DOES take a village, and we are nothing if we do not have a tribe around us.

We are more of sheep than of cats in that regard.

Not being judgmental, but, as I pointed out, even the 7B of us really don’t take up a lot of acreage when considering the whole planet.

Fact is, we DON’T use space efficiently or well, and that’s the problem.

Kalima
Admin

That’s my point, there isn’t enough space to use, and they do have their places where people are not allowed to build anything because it’s designated as a national treasure. The Buddhist and Shinto shrines all had first dubs on the best locations centuries ago. We live in rabbit houses mostly, new spacious apartments are too expensive, and who wants to pay $1500 a month just for a caretaker to bring the mail to your door?

I should be sleeping, so good night.

whatsthatsound
Member

Yeah, I hear you on that. One can love the human race and still dispassionately assert that our way of life is already harming the planet, and will utterly deplete its ability to sustain homeostasis if the population continues to explode and as more countries move into the economic status of having cars, computers and indoor home heating for everyone.