The concept of the SOVEREIGN State of Israel is a VALID one… especially given the AGES old history of the persecution of the Jews as a way to DEFEND ourselves from those who would start another GENOCIDE against us (& don’t think for a MINUTE that there aren’t PLENTY of those still around)….

But “Zionism”.. after it was HIJACKED by a bunch of messianic troglodytes, took it WAY too far & started to liken this “sovereignty” to a blood feud… the (deserved) CHIP on Israels shoulder after the Holocaust seemed to have GRAFTED itself to the mindset of these hardliners.. things that need to be EXCISED from the soul of Israel once & for all.

The HARDLINERS’ juvenile contention that somehow Israel would be giving ANYTHING “back” as opposed to SHARING it is the kind in intractable mindset that has caused COUNTLESS GENERATIONS of innocents to suffer & die.. live their lives in FEAR & LOATHING & HOPELESSNESS…& it is the mindset that will end up DESTROYING it.

Enough.

This is only PERIPHERALLY a political problem.. it’s based almost ENTIRELY upon raw EMOTION.. the hardest thing to even DEFINE, no less debate & resolve… yet no solutions will stand the test of time if they are solely relegated to politics.

These new settlements.. in fact ALL SETTLEMENTS need to GO… & UNTIL then, ALL financial support the United States affords Israel must STOP… & we should BOYCOTT their products as well.

Israel AGREED to do this DECADES ago.. as well as their PROMISE to revert back to pre-1967 borders. They RENEGED.. & that is a SHANDA.

As a Jew who’s mother still sports numbers tattooed on her forearm, whose father (bless his soul) ran GUNS to Israel with Zimmel Reznik in the late 40’s, I FERVENTLY support the premise that The State of Israel MUST endure.

As a LIBERAL, I’m ASHAMED of some of the rhetoric.. some just simplistic.. some PLAINLY antisemitic by so-called “progressives” on some sites like The Huffington Post regarding Israel.

That said, I am VERY ASHAMED that the neoconservatives currently in power are THUGS who have committed atrocities in Gaza & the West Bank (turning Gaza into a GHETTO that can rival WARSAW)… & have treated the Palestinian People as WE had been treated in Germany.

The people of Israel MUST purge themselves of the same malignancy that WE had managed to do a year ago last November…. & they need to be afforded the SAME patience in doing so that WE were afforded… & I am THANKFUL for the stand that President Obama & Secretary of State Clinton have taken to put Bibi Netanyahu in his PLACE.

ALL of the Arab Nations are going to have to be MUCH more proactive in settling this dispute than they have done… the quasi-righteous indignation spouted by them regarding the Palestinians NEVER actually manifested as anything other than cynical, empty rhetoric..

For example, when Netanyahu is FINALLY bounced by Livni (she actually WON last time.. but Bibi pulled a “Bush” on her & stole it) the REAL process can restart.

Israel MUST return to pre-1967 borders, which means that the GOLAN HEIGHTS has to go back to SYRIA, who was controlling the territory when they attacked Israel. Like it or not, THEY have to have a dog in this fight as well… & allow the Palestinians to annex it as their own.

Gaza & the West Bank (along with Golan) should comprise the SOVEREIGN STATE of PALESTINE.

As much influence that the United States might have with Israel.. the ONE MAN in the region who is INDISPENSABLE is KING ABDULLAH of JORDAN… who is the ONLY PARTICIPANT that can make this work for ALL PARTIES.

In Islam, the Hashemite King of Jordan is the ONLY ruler in that region charged with the “Guardianship” over JERUSALEM…

NOT “Israel”…

NOT “Palestine”..

NOT the United States..

Israel MUST stop the childish notion that if they SHARE Jerusalem.. they ”lose” Jerusalem… & if it turns out to be the case that this is the ONLY barrier to a MEANINGFUL peace agreement, then they MUST compromise.

For me, Israel should once again adopt TEL AVIV as it’s Capitol.. Palestine should name Hebron theirs.. & Jerusalem should be designated an INTERNATIONAL CITY… Generally overseen by Jordan… with the disparate “zones” autonomously adjudicated by the different ethnicity’s that live in them.

At SOME point, for the good of Israel.. for the good of the region.. for the good of the WORLD, they will realize that “dominion” over what is no more than MORTAR, STONE, WOOD & DUST isn’t as important as their CHILDREN.

The animosities in the Mideast have been ongoing for EONS…

….but we should NEVER stop trying to END the INSANITY once & for ALL. .

Peace Now and this.

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nottoolate
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The US is considering abstaining from a possible UN Security Council resolution against Israeli settlement expansion in East Jerusalem, the BBC has learned.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8591714.stm

Kalima
Admin
Khirad
Member

Yes, Kalima. I saw this.

Khirad
Member

Of all I agree with, one thing you brought up, is it does indeed behoove the Palestinians to say – we’ll do Hebron, if you do Tel Aviv.

Seriously, I cannot imagine a much more International city than Jerusalem. Whatever is said about the treatment of it before the state of Israel, it nonetheless is important to all the Abrahamic religions and their respective sects – which span the globe.

The only thing that makes me ponder is the position of Jordon’s monarchy. Don’t get me wrong, we need to be pragmatic, and as far as actors in the region, King Abdullah is one of the most reasonable and modern, but it is undemocratic, nonetheless.

I suppose, what I mean to say, is that I only see the Jordanian component as temporary (even if that means decades to a century more), and merely a means to the end. Altogether a minor point. I understand this as a means to an end. I’m thinking long term on this, and this raises way more issues regarding radicalism and what democracy could mean.

As for the “progressives” on HP. These are consistently the same ones that mock everyone sympathetic to the Greens in Iran on Iranian threads which I frequent. They are sick human beings, and certainly not Progressives. They are one issue obsessed, and it colors their view on everything else.

Pepe Lepew
Member

I’ve often wondered how far Israeli-Palestinian peace might have gone if not for the assassination of Rabin.

Chernynkaya
Member

BSM– I couldn

Khirad
Member

Well, I’ve already given’ my spiel that we need to stop seeing the Kingdom of God and holy places as physical places. For more, just rent The Power of Myth with Bill Moyers.

Religion should not be about real estate. This is not what Zionism was all about, I had thought. I’m woefully out of my depth on this, though.

I found the Hebrew for Egypt interesting. Voil

kesmarn
Admin

Cher, what a wonderful post. I love your idea of Jerusalem — not as a physical place — but as a sense of being spiritually at home.

I truly do lament the state in which parts of Catholicism find themselves now, too, especially with all the revelations of the abuse that has been overlooked and tolerated for decades. But there’s another part of me that thinks that the small silver lining in all of this might be a Church that is smaller, poorer, humbler and holier. Less dependent on Rome. More mature.

Religions — like nations and individuals — can and should grow and develop wisdom from difficult, painful times.

Chernynkaya
Member

Thank you, Kes. I agree, all religions must find a way to remain true to their essence while adapting to change. The ones that don’t, become radical, defensive and marginalized– like all fundamental movements eventually do. I am pretty sure the Church has done that in the past and will continue to.

SueInCa
Member

Cher
Question for you. Is there anything in the Torah that requires the 3rd temple to be built? The reason I ask is that the RR thinks that is the time when everything will come together and their end times fairytale will really commence.

Chernynkaya
Member

Sue, if you want a real understanding from a mainstream Rabbi, you can read this blog.
http://www.rabbishmuel.com/

Simplistically put, yes, the Book of Ezekiel talks about the Third Temple, which is necessary for the coming of the Messiah. But it is an allegory! No mainstream Orthodox Jew wants to see the Temple rebuilt at the destruction of alAqsa mosque. Seriously, that is the truth. Jews

SueInCa
Member

Thanks, Cher. I read it and while I do not understand the Hebrew spoken, I understand his thoughts on the Temple.

I would assume there are those who do not agree with his premise that the Mountain is big enough for everyone, but I think his reasoning is sound. Couldn’t it also be said that Christians around the world who might have gathered on the mountain desecrate it as well? Why not include everyone that have good hearts.

Chernynkaya
Member

Exactly, Sue. That’s why it must be an international city. But personally, I still think they are all wrong-headed about real estate and God– the idea is so primitive– “God is HERE!” Silly.

I just thought he typified the thinking of mainstream Jews. Not me– I am not mainstream. But also not so radical as to be beyond the pale either.

SueInCa
Member

Thanks, I will read the blog. What you say is precisely what I was thinking. To desecrate the mosque would cause untild hostilities and that iw why I was curious. The RR does take the scripture literally, unless it does not fit their agenda so in this sense they would take it literally in order to fulfill their fantasy.

Chernynkaya
Member

The Jews who deal with Hagee and others like him know exactly who they are dealing with but cynically (and stupidly) discount his potential for destruction. They think they are using him, and he is using them, and both are playing an evil, venal game.

SueInCa
Member

That is what I think then I ask, how could they let themselves be duped like that? I went to the Jews for Freedom website and noticed the blog on AIPAC, I had wondered if that was universal as well and I see that all religions have their separate factions. I tell you I am learning quite a bit in my research on religion.

Khirad
Member

It’s the goal of many more recent religions not to split – to preserve ‘unity’. But alas, ’tis natural to diversify.

Chernynkaya
Member

Sue, they Jews are anything BUT monolithic! Not only are there three main branches of Mainstream Judaism, but withing those three are factions.

SueInCa
Member

BlueStateMan
You have said what I have been thinking but have not been able to articulate.

In all honesty the Religious Right here needs to keep the tension up in Israel so their prohecies come to fruition. They need to have that “armageddan” in the middle east. If it does not happen, all of their doctrine goes down the drain and people sit up and say, “what in the hell are these people preaching?” Then doubt starts to set in and they lose their followers. They simply cannot allow that to happen because it will begin to erode their political stature as well.

Hagee is not running his “Stand with Israel” with the sole purpose of aligning with the Israeli’s but rather to sustain the problems and force a showdown of some type.

Khirad
Member

And here, I am certainly not off topic when I say that a contingent in Iran have the same ideas. I say contingent, because honestly, the Palestinian issue is more of a cynical domestic and regional political axe to grind since Khomeini died to the broader state propaganda apparatus. Even he remarked that when he spoke to Arafat, that he could not understand him. This was a typical Persian way of saying that not only did they not speak the same Arabic, but that it is not Iran’s core issue.

You will never hear any politician say that outright, but Khatami and other Reformists have come the closest, even going so far as to include their willingness to accept the two state solution in 2003 – though Ahmadinejad and his messianic contingent aren’t so hot on this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haghani_Circle

choicelady
Member

Blue – this is outstanding and very helpful. Sue – you are so correct about the right and the need for prophecy to be fulfilled. I once was given a booklet – four-color drawings and EVERYTHING – on the Rapture, Tribulation, and Second Coming. My fave part was that Christians during all this are directed that for SEVEN years, they must be nice to Jews. That’s so they can take back Jerusalem. At the end of this, of course, God will smite Jews who have not converted. All in all, there’s not much percentage in the relationship FOR Jews in Israel, IMHO.

I have long worked with peace-seeking Jews and Muslims who are trying to find their way to a humane solution to this long, long enmity. I have now a glimmer of hope, but only a glimmer. This post serves to provide some ideas I’d never considered before, and I thank you, Blue. It’s real food for thought.

One thing is outstandingly clear however – RW End Times Predispenationalist Millenarian Christians have GOT to go! They have hate for both sides of the conflict and are seeking only their own gain. No Zionist worth his or her salt should have a thing to do with them!

kesmarn
Admin

Hi, c’lady! Have you — or has anyone else — heard anything about a group called “Jewish Voices for Peace”? They seem like a pretty decent bunch, but I’d like to know more.

Chernynkaya
Member

Kes– they are a good group.

http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

Also, in case you haven’t, see BSM’s link to Peace Now–an older, more established organization.

kesmarn
Admin

Thanks, Cher! I’ve been getting their emails and I was impressed. I’ll have to check out Peace Now also.

Chernynkaya
Member

Hi C’Lady! I can’t help it– this is all I can think of when I think of “The Rapture.”

As I always say– I can’t wait to get all the stuff they’ll leave behind! 😉

Khirad
Member

LOL! One guy actually obliquely threatened me with rapture. He was being cutesie and when I pressed him, he started spouting off Ezekiel, etc.

I pretty much pointed out all the stuff I pointed out to you, and the ONLY defense they can come to for unconditionally supporting Israeli – and its hardliners – nevermind the CHRISTIAN Palestinians they throw under the bus in the process, is their belief in facilitating the Return of Jesus.

It is DISGUSTING. To support such atrocities in the name of God (or G-d, if you prefer).

kesmarn
Admin

Hadn’t thought of that, Cher… 😆

Almost makes me hope it happens before my car gets much older. I could adopt one of those left behind Lexuses (Lexi?) the Prosperity Gospel folks wouldn’t be needing any more.

SueInCa
Member

Cher
You will be waiting a long time because no God would ever, in my estimation, take these charlatans over peace loving people the world over.

kesmarn
Admin

“For me, Israel should once again adopt TEL AVIV as it

KQµårk 死神
Member

Exactly Jerusalem has been an international city for centuries.

Kalima
Admin

Blue, you’ve put into words what I’ve been thinking for a long time. It’s time for Israel to stop with the “bully” politics and forget about their airs of entitlement. Placing and displacing tens of thousands of Palestinians in refugee camps is barbaric. Building another “Berlin” wall taking away people’s land and building on disputed land is only taking them backwards. People who were always on their side are now looking away, they’ve tried it all before, it doesn’t work, why carry on with the same old policies and complain about Palestinian aggression, it’s laughable.

A Palestinian state is the only way to go forward and the King of Jordan is a patient and reasonable man as a mediator. The world is beginning to see that peace might be the last thing that some want and for some watching, their patience is running low.

boomer1949
Member

People who were always on their side are now looking away, they

SueInCa
Member

Actually Boomer, the GOP is knee deep in this conflict.

Kalima
Admin

Morning boomer, I’m glad that you added the last sentence, I read it a minute ago and was a little confused.

Yes, it does sound like the GOP, you are right.

whatsthatsound
Member

Great article, BSM, and that’s it, Kalima. It really comes down to the question of just how low on the priority list peace is for the leaders (of both sides, when the whole long and sordid history is taken into account). It seems to not be much of a priority at all, when under sane leadership it should trump all other considerations put together.
Sad, and awful. Too many holes have been shot into the Holy Land.

KQµårk 死神
Member

Like all right wing groups they care nothing about peace and are only obsessed about keeping power. Fear sells when people feel threatened in domestic politics, always has always will.

Kalima
Admin

Yes wts, as you say, “too many holes have been shot into the Holy Land.” It is very sad because in a way it belongs to so many of us in our hearts, if not in our minds. Very sad indeed.

msbadger
Member
msbadger

I’m really glad to read an article like this. I’ve been looking for something like this for a long time. As a non-Jew, I always feel as though I have little right to insert myself into the argument, except as regards the US position on and support of Israel. However, I spent years as a child in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood in Chicago, in the late 50’s and early 60’s, and I personally encountered several survivors of the Nazi’s, and family members who had lost loved ones in the Holocaust. I have seen the tattoos with my own eyes, and will never forget it. This is one of only a few things that have made me a lifelong liberal, a supporter of the Jewish people, and all `other peoples or races that have suffered such horrors. That said, I agree wholeheartedly with the writer. I am pro-Jew, and pro-Israel, but I cannot agree with the radical Zionists and the ongoing war against Palestine. I know this is a very complex situation, and not soon to be resolved. I pray for peace in the Middle East and throughout the world. This article was very well thought out and very well informed. Thank you again, Bluestateman. May this come to pass.

SueInCa
Member

I, too understand your thought process. I always hesitate to put in my two cents on this topic for fear of alienating people or being told “you don’t know anything” but it is plain to see the hardliners on both sides make it hard for everyone in between. Peace needs to come to this world entire, it is the only way we will stop destroying the planet we have been given to take care of and move forward in a progressive mode.

KQµårk 死神
Member

I understand I have similar sympathies for personal reasons.

KQµårk 死神
Member

Bravo BSM I could not put it better. A two state solution is the only way and I would like to see the borders go back to the original UN partition.

I’ve been attacked by both sides for what seems to be a fair and commonsense way to proceed. I admit I have some personal bias toward Jewish people but I also am very sensitive to the opportunistic, cynical and downright criminal way the Israel government have abused that trust with those who support an independent Israel in the West. Bad acts are bad acts and both sides have not acted in good faith more often than not in the past. The difference is more recently the Israel government has embraced the occupation for short term political gain over seeking peace in the region. They in fact stick their finger in the eye of peace any time it comes up now.

It is absolutely childish behavior on Netanyahu’s part. They are just like Bush’s government in it’s world view. As long as they win elections at home the whole world can hate at least what they are doing and it’s just a cynical political calculation. I’m sure there are hundreds of thousands of Jewish people in Israel who are just as frustrated with their adolescent leadership as we were with Bush as well.

ENOUGH is right, it’s time for the people of Israel to make a stand.