House leadership is looking at passing the Senate HC bill in one step instead of two. Basically since many House members simply don’t want to vote for the Senate bill the Democratic leadership is looking into a procedure called “deem and pass”. Instead of voting on the Senate HC bill and then voting on the reconciliation bill Democrats may use a parliamentary procedure where they “deem” the Senate HCR passed when “pass(ing)” the two bills together. This is done all the time in the House by Democrats and Republicans but like usual Republicans are being hypocritical and saying that the Dems aren’t voting on healthcare. Republicans would have to break 116 years of precedent to taint the procedure. It would be politically “cleaner” to use the two step procedure but the downside is that the Senate might not pass the reconciliation bill and the Senate bill with be law.
If HCR fails these are the people that will define America’s future. Most people are angry and justifiably so but some people want to channel that anger for progress and to make things better. These people are just angry and that’s a big different.
Now let’s all cover this great Beatles song with slightly revised lyrics.
Eleanor Rigby (Lennon/McCartney)
Ah, look at all the angry people
Ah, look at all the angry people
Eleanor Rigby picks up the rice in the church where a wedding has been
Lives in a dream
Waits at the window, wearing the face that she keeps in a jar by the door
Who is it for?
All the angry people
Where do they all come from?
All the angry people
Where do they all belong?
Father McKenzie writing the words of a sermon that no one will hear
No one comes near.
Look at him working, darning his socks in the night when there’s nobody there
What does he care?
All the angry people
Where do they all come from?
All the angry people
Where do they all belong?
Ah, look at all the angry people
Ah, look at all the angry people
Eleanor Rigby died in the church and was buried along with her name
Nobody came
Father McKenzie wiping the dirt from his hands as he walks from the grave
No one was saved
All the angry people
Where do they all come from?
All the angry people
Where do they all belong?
This is an excellent diary from dailykos –
Here’s one of my favorite parts –
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/3/18/847386/-The-last-acts-of-a-desperate-partyFREAK-OUT-TIME!!!
Whenever you hear a right winger accusing the Democrats of doing something — you just KNOW it’s projection. It’s either what the GOP would like to be doing, or something they’re doing already.
…or something that the GOP makes pretensions of wanting to do but only “better” while in reality has no intention whatever of doing. Ever. Like HCR.
Virginia is threatening to sue the government if HCR is passed and they are not alone –
conservative grandstanding, quasi-pure and ultra-simple, not to mention a huge waste of VA taxpayer time and money.
This is like the Terri Schiavo debacle. In the end, it’s just going to bite the GOP in the ass.
I really think that words like “union” and “indivisible” still confusticate conservatives. I am surprised they haven’t made noises about redacting both of them out of the Pledge.
Good morning, Nellie.
I hope you are correct but jeepers, the GOP sure have folks wound up with the help of Fox and the likes of Beck, Hannity, O’Reilly et all.
Have spent most of the morning reading mediamatters and the pundits are in a-frenzy, basically calling Obama a Marxist tyrant, and Beck even went as far as to explain that Obama was born a Marxist.
Limbaugh accused Obama yesterday of fighting with Israel to appease the Muslims because Obama is a Muslim.
How do we stop the lies in the media?
Fox and their pundits are a danger to our president and our country and yet they are stronger than ever in spouting their deceptions and hate.
http://mediamatters.org/
Good morning javaz.
For my part, I think the corporate wing nuts are very loud but have little influence on what happens in our legislature. The people who plug into this kind of hate speech are people who are willing to believe this crazy stuff. They’re in the minority.
The Right Wing is spending a lot of money to saturate the media with trolls, be they highly paid ones like Rush Limbaugh or the pathetic basement dwellers who post on HP. They make a lot of noise, but they’re not changing anything. We never would have gotten single payer — even without the tea party — because too many congresspeople are bought and paid for.
I’ve come to look at Fox and Rush as cover — cover for corporate bought-off legislators so they can put up a front that they’re representing the public. But I don’t think they affect voting or lawmaking. But corporate money in campaigns and lobbying does. I think that’s the real danger.
We got the CBO score. Right on schedule.
1. CUTS THE DEFICIT Cuts the deficit by $130 billion in the first ten years (2010
Thank you!
It’s so important to get these facts out.
Hi all – Happy What’s Left of St. Patrick’s Day!
I just signed up at FDL and posted – only to see nothing appear. What’s up with them?
Man – they are all whiners just like the bozo I dealt with New Year’s Eve who declared HE had all the answers and set all the standards for everything, and HE was not happy with Obama, oh, boy, no he was NOT, so Obama ought to be very, very worried because HE wrote Obama a letter saying next time HE might not vote.
I’m used now to the whiners at HuffPo, but these folks are special (picture me saying that like the SNL Church Lady).
What seems to be the common denominator here is the EGOTISM of people who know very little. I’ve worked hard for single payer in CA, but I twice have been on a panel with a single payer supporter doctor who knows NOTHING about the federal plan, just that it’s not single payer and so he hates the federal plan. When I asked him what he would say to the millions who will get coverage, he brushed them off as unimportant. He then said we HAD to get single payer and could do it in two months. He and his wife both are physicians and will settle for nothing less than what is ideologically pure. Even if it’s on the backs of uninsured, untreated people. So my question is – what happened to your oath to first do no harm? Throwing under the bus the 87 million who at one time or another during any given year do NOT have health care coverage IS ABSOLUTELY IMMORAL. I dare say I will not be going to HIM for treatment! His wife’s a pediatrician, so I’m not likely to need her, but I am horrified at people who put ideology ahead of the common good.
I am just plain fed up with these attitudes, and I no longer can tell the right from the left.
Grrr!
Hear, Hear, C’lady. Testify!
Amen, Sister Cher, amen!
I hear you sister ❗
Amazingly my cardiologist who will do anything for me most times free of charge is a staunch Republican. It’s so funny because he’s the most caring doctor I’ve come across but like I said in an earlier post it’s just a blind spot. I don’t think either side is immune from having purist ideologues but I never get that confused with whether they are good peeps or not.
The other part is when it came to a few polls I saw recently around 90% and sometimes more liberal Dems want this to pass so again the loudest opponents may be in the minority.
Am I the only one who feels really good about this congress passing health care? I’ve been listening to whining progressives all day — we’ve been betrayed, we’ve been let down, the leadership has failed, we’ll never get single payer, on and on and on.
All I can think is — “Damn, we got a health care bill passed in just over a year. I never thought we would do it this fast.”
No, you’re not the only one, nellie!
I am not satisfied with this bill, but I am hoping and praying that it does pass, and I’m with you in believing that it will.
This is a historical moment for our country and I’m glad to be here to witness it.
YES WE CAN and YES WE WILL finally.
addendum : I am so burned out on politics and the fighting and the we vs them attitude from the politicians, MSM and even people I know.
I stopped watching the news except for the weather report, and when I am cruising the Net, I read the articles, but absolutely refuse to read any comments.
I’m tired of it all.
But that doesn’t stop me from hoping and thinking positively, and it certainly does not change my mind about voting Democrat, until something better comes along.
I don’t like this bill, either, javaz. But when H.R. 3200 came out of the House, and I read everything they had put in that bill, I realized they were serious about passing a reform bill. And since then, I’ve felt confident. Even this stinker of a Senate Bill is a solid start and will change so many people’s lives.
It has been something to watch!
I’ve read so many articles from so many sites, and we do need to regulate insurance companies, but even if we don’t, the matter will take care of itself.
It’ll take longer to take care of itself, sadly, but it will happen.
The insurance for profit days are numbered, and I truly believe that.
I also believe that within 10 years that we will have single payer.
That would be great.
I really don’t know what’s wrong with those folks, Nellie, except that they all must be well-covered and have no imaginations what it’s like for the rest of us who aren’t.
Sadly, you might be right about that. All these people are well paid, well heeled, corporately INSURED folks on the radio.
E’cat, I also believe they have been getting most of their info from sites like HP and Firedoglake. It’s no wonder that all they see are the downsides. There is a serious lack of intellectual honesty from both the Left and Fux.
HP is definitely crawling with the rabid HCR haters. Any more, I can hardly tell whether a lot of these people are leftie extremists or rightie extremists. The only thing that is clear is that they are extremists and they blame Obama for all the country’s ills. I’m starting to get some serious enemies over there, really — all on the far left. I don’t know why those people bug me more than the rightwing trolls do, but I let them really get me worked up.
And yes, a lot of them are posting endless quotes from Jane Hamsher at FDL.
Sometimes I think it’s just marketing. Marketing from the right and from the site.
I’m with you, Nellie! I am just still holding my breath until this is over. I am extremely disappointed in people on the Left who can’t seem to see the forest for the trees. And by Congress, but that has only motivated me more to vote for actual Democrats in upcoming elections–NOT to pout and say, “Not good enough!” and then ensure that the Reptilians regain power!
No, Cher!
If you hold your breath that long, you’ll turn blue!
And today is the day to GO GREEN!
That’s a profound change of heart, Cher. That takes a lot of soul searching.
I’m such a nut for primaries and primary challengers. Jane Harman has a primary challenger this year — Marci Winograd, who has challenged her before. But Harman’s votes have been really good since Marci got 36% of the votes in the last primary. And she came out early and strong for H.R. 3200. So she has my vote this year in the primary. Last time I voted for Marci.
And I’m going to write her and let her know how her stance on health care translated into a vote.
Yes, Nellie, but it happened sort of gradually since I wrote the piece “Kill Bill?” a few months ago. I’ve been commenting this way for a while now.
(I assume that’s what you mean by change of heart?)
I was going by your post — changing from the “not good enough” frame of mind. I wrestle with that, too — but in the end, I want to move forward, even if it’s slowly.
What’s so discouraging where we live is that we live in a Red state and even though our district as it stands is blue, it’s an ‘iffy’ thing.
All of our reps are Republicans, yet somehow we’re considered a Democratic district, and I really do not understand that.
I think b’ito lives in a bluer area down in Tucson, but even that area is ‘iffy.’
Watching KO, and it was reported that my rep is “leaning” to vote yes. I think she will!
I think so, too, b’ito, because I think it’s all political theater.
They’ve got to report on something, besides Tiger Woods and American Idol.
Here in Colorado, Michael Bennett isn’t faring too well right now. He has earned my vote by standing up for the P.O. and against the filibuster. His dem challenger is significantly ahead. I don’t know much about the local scene — Bennett seems to have a lot of enemies.
e’cat , NPR, did a short discussion on that race. I have seen Bennett on the floor speaking, I liked him.
I like him too, Bito. I plan to vote for him. Of course, I don’t know anything about the other guy, except he might be more to the left of Bennett. I just want to make sure one of the Dems wins!!
I’m still holding my breath but I’ll probably break down if it does happen.
I had a horrible flashback during my last hospital stay because at one point I had to go to the cancer center for an infusion. I had been in the hospital many times since I had been treated for cancer but this was the first time I had been in a cancer center for almost 15 years. All the memories came rushing back. I could barely contain myself. I probably would have rushed out of the room if my wife was not there for support. Memories of the nurse who spilled blood all over me during an infusion, seeing a sickle cell anemia patient riving in pain begging the nurses for meds and seeing a poor kid in his early twenties doing his first treatment all came rushing in. So I figure when this passes every health related hardship I ever faced during my bouts will illness will come back again.
The day after it passes I will probably go to our favorite Irish Pub and celebrate.
What a rush of traumatic memories, K. It’s just not right that you should be in limbo with your health coverage. Or e’cat. Or anyone. I think about things like that and don’t see how anyone can feel resentful about this bill. It’s going to be so helpful — for everyone who will benefit from it, for the freedom people will have, for the financial security it will give so many families. It’s just in time for so many people on the brink. And it will change the way we deal with health issues forever.
There’s more to do, of course, but geez — this is a good thing.
It really is a tale of two bills for people that have insurance or don’t think they need it, the bill is a hard sell because it does not offer that much. But for people that need access to healthcare coverage in this system and can’t get it, the bill is a life vest.
The best part of Rep. Kucinich’s statement was the fact that he listened to his constituents, many of whom are in the second category.
Even those young and healthy “hard sell” types will eventually come to appreciate it — when they get older and their body starts breaking down or when they have an accident. I broke both my arms in a bicycle accident when I was a 22 year old college student. Luckily, I lived in California and MediCal took care of my bills. I still think back on that with great appreciation.
You know better than most where I stand on this for you and my other friends who need this desperately.
When it passes, you will hear my shouts of glee across the blue ocean which separates us.
I can’t wait to raise my glass to all of you. 🙂
KQ, I too will celebrate– for you and all of us. For my son, who has no health coverage, and for the tens of MILLIONS of people who will benefit. Those who oppose this –whether as as too little, or too much– are those who don’t need health insurance, or who just don’t give a damn about their fellow human beings.
KQ – the day after it passes, you will deserve an INFUSION of whatever pleases you! You and e-cat and anyone who has been waiting for care and coverage do deserve whatever good comes your way!
You will deserve that drink KQ, and I think you will be celebrating by Sunday night.
KQ, that’s wrenching just to read about briefly, you’re one tough customer to march through everything you have.
I have never been more confident, this is do or die for Obama’s Presidency and the Dem Party remaining in power, I think that within the week, we may indeed be clinking virtual glasses.
I do, too, and the idea that at least 18 million people – and e-cat and KQ should be among them – who have no insurance and need immediate care will GET care is something I cannot ignore.
That said – would anyone tackle the issue of how we are leaving out documented and undocumented immigrants? How dreadful, IMHO, to think that anyone present in this nation cannot even BUY insurance! And legally present immigrants pay TAXES, so why are they banned from public programs for FIVE YEARS – what if they are 65? They have to wait til 70 for Medicare? Awful. And short-sighted. And dangerous to the public health. Anyone have an answer or insight?
If they are undocumented immigrants how do they get a social security number? I am not really versed in the immigrant issue, but if they are undocumented and paying taxes wouldn’t ICE be deporting them and wouldn’t they be using a fake ss#? As for documented workers, I am not sure how they were taken out, it was my understanding they were included.
Oh it is true they often have phony SS cards, but they pay into the system – sometimes to other citizens’ accounts – and get nothing. In CA undocumented people get NO services other than emergency medical care and school for their kids (who often ARE citzens.) But they add billions – cher is right – to the tax coffers but now cannot even BUY insurance. Mexico offers single payer insurance (think of the irony) to those who are employed within Mexico. However, they SELL insurance for $95 per YEAR to those not employed within the country. The problem? US hospitals won’t take it. We’re working on that.
Legally present immigrants without private insurance cannot access any public program – I believe not even Medicare at 65 – for FIVE years under what I think will emerge. That is in the Senate bill. The House bill let them have coverage, and let undocumented people buy it, but what’s in the final bill, passed either with reconciliation or deem and pass is just not yet clear.
The only good public health measure is to be sure that everyone inside the US has some access to insurance or we’re going to see pandemics like we’ve not experiences since 1918. We will have polio, typhus, whooping cough – on and on because sick people will continue to get sick and be among us. Not everyone who is a citizen will have adequate protection. It’s just stupid. And inhumane. People are people, and the woman who cleans my hotel room matters, the guy who cuts our grass at my office matters, and his kids matter, and his mom matters. We just have taken the YOYO principle – you’re on your own – waaaaay too far. We’ve lost our decency.
If there is a pandemic, the Mexican immigrants–even though they are barred from attaining health coverage– will be the first ones blamed. I remember well that POS Lou Dobbs claiming they bring leprosy! Talk about a regressive. Leprosy?!
Not all of us are that bad, but I can see where you are feeling the way you are. I have felt for months like we are on the verge of something really bad. I just hope the many raise up against the few because most of them are on the right but the really bad ones are armed to the teeth. Homeland security better be on the ball.
C’Lady and Sue, I am almost finished writing a post about immigration reform, and no, they do not have SS cards. But they pay taxes! Property, sales and some income taxes. The IRS estimates that they contributed 13 Billion in 2009, but I have to check that number.
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People can already keep their existing health care under the pending bill.
Federal law will trump whatever the Oklahoma legislature decides to dream up.
Seriously — the GOP is turning into a club for the anti-social.
That’s a good point in fact the primary way you LOSE the HC you have is because your employer can change their carrier at any time and when you lose your job you eventually lose your HC coverage in states like OK.
Does this mean no medicare/medicaid, and the funds that go with them?
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BT, Last I heard they aren’t getting many signatures to put it on the ballot. I will check into it.
Kirkpatrick up in Flagstaff said she will vote yes.
http://www.azdailysun.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/beb6b8ca-3203-11df-8d5a-001cc4c002e0.html
😎 She is quite a conservative Dem. Still haven’t found out about mine Gabby Giffords. I will try to call her office again tomorrow.
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Yup Idaho is doing a similar thing. Long live Red State – Blue State politics.
No surprise Oklahoma was the only state where Obama did not win a district. If they don’t want to be part of the plan more money for other states.
here is an interesting wrinkle I just saw in DailyKos http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/3/17/847214/-Wheres-the-CBO-Report
“In order to pass the bill by the Easter recess, and avoid any further delays that could sink the bill, the Senate needs to take up the bill next week.
In order for the Senate to take up the reconciliation bill next week, President Obama has to sign the Senate bill into law before he leaves the country for a five day trip on Sunday.
In order for President Obama to sign the bill into law before he leaves the country, the House needs to pass the bill by Saturday night.
And, in order for the House to pass the bill by Saturday night, the CBO needs to release its score of the bill tonight, 72 hours before the House votes.”
Or, Obama must cancel the trip if the CBO cannot get it done in time. The trip is not that critical.
at this point, he should forget about the trip.
Agreed.
Very interesting timeline — let’s see if the CBO reports out tonight.
So, did someone already post this?
nasty people
Disgusting people!
I just got an alert from the American Cancer Society. This is what healthcare reform would be like with Republicans in charge. More unfettered capitalism and less regulations to ensure people get proper care. Remember that cancer screenings is in the first stage of Democratic legislation.
I’m sure some AZ legislator will see this and propose it here.
Rep. Larson gave a good list of the to 10 benefits that will go into effect almost immediately.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-john-b-larson/he-top-ten-immediate-bene_b_501748.html
😳 Check a reply that Cher posted earlier. A much better list than mine.
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If you are talking about the doctor from your Bill Moyers post, I never said she was! But you didn’t address my questions about what she wants.
Sounds like putting words in your mouth to me.
I don’t even think most (or maybe many) Republicans are bad people. I think most of them are misguided or just unreasonable.
I think people on both sides can be equally unreasonable even if I do lean left on principle.
Yeah, the thing with Republicans is that many do genuinely believe they are doing what’s good for America. I don’t sweepingly cast them as ‘bad’.
But, what they do is often bad for America, and their ideology misguided or as it is now, too purified and scorched-earth driven to compromise and be reasonable.
conservatives, while ostensibly well intentioned, are always on the wrong side of history and social progress
Yup and the many conservatives I’ve worked with over the years I remind them of that time and time again. Yet some of them are still very good friends. I look at it like they have a blind spot intellectually that cannot be cured.
I see it that way too, on one of my good days. It’s really true, and I have to remind myself that they are not all the scumbags like those we see on TV or read about. Many are despondent about what their party has become– which IMO is pure evil.
everyone has their weaknesses. Gawd knows I have mine.
That’s true but you can drive a truck through Republicans blind spot without them noticing.
I like the way you put that. And when they do remove the blinders, then they have to come up with Jonah Goldberg rationalizations and topsy-turvy tripe.
I almost dislike the converts more like Huffy. Because she brings Republican nasty tactics to the left.
I know we have seen many analogies of what this legislation is like and frankly I’m a little sick of them myself but I came across a unique one a post said last night that I could relate too because I was in that exact situation.
They pretty much said our healthcare system is analogous to a critical patient that enters the ER. When you are a critical patient the first directive for doctors is to stabilize the patient. Eventually if the patient is not too sick they receive more comprehensive treatment that lets them out of the hospital when other doctors come on board and more test are done.
Well our healthcare system is in critical condition. I’ve said several time that we are starting from a very bad place on HCR. I’ve been on record saying it would be a disaster going straight to single payer because it would just shock the system like setting a defibrillator with too much amperage. Evolving into a virtual single payer system would be much more efficient. That being said this is not the point where I would have wanted to start from but it’s still a start.
Some of the most successful systems in the world are mixed public and private systems. I don’t see anything wrong with that. There is enough support for a robust public system to see it happen.
What I tire of is the complaining about the bill that’s on the table — which I hear every morning on KPOJ from hosts that I really love. But after all this time, it should be pretty clear that just this meagre reform faced major opposition, will just squeak through, and is a major accomplishment. Let’s pass it and then work on making it better.
Very true but to be fair, those mixtures also place restrictions on the private ins. sector. That’s the next thing that needs to happen, imo.
Besides ensuring coverage for the sick and preexisting conditions there is one piece of this bill that goes a long way with regulating what percentage insurance companies must pay out in premiums if they want to be part of the exchanges.
The Netherlands has a 100% private system distributed through government subsidies and premiums. They also have a boat load of legislation. You can just legislate HCR but the trouble with that in this country is legislators are dependent on business. The fact is we have a very hybrid system now. The government now pays more than the private sector on healthcare. The problem is even with the high costs not everyone has coverage. That’s always been the first step. To cover as many people as possible and spread the risk. That’s the only thing common in all the HC systems better and cheaper than ours.
that analogy appears 100% legitimate. The status quo HC system is indeed dying and taking us with it.
BT, no, those quotes sound like Firebagger quotes to me. That’s why I said my post was slightly OT.I was responding to the mention of the NE Journal of Medicine.
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Ok, point taken. I think she is not a RW doc at all. I do think she is a LW purist. That is not name calling, but a description of her ideology.
De facto collaborator in my book.
BT, I think my reply didn’t post the first time.
Ok, point taken. I think she is not a RW doc at all. I do think she is a LW purist. That is not name calling, but a description of her ideology.
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But the term ideologue– to me anyway, is not derogatory. It means someone who is idealistic; who has ideals.
And I am not entirely disagreeing with her–except for a couple of statements.
But the fact is, we are where we are. Is she advocating we scrap the bill and start over? Is she saying this is not reform? What does she want? What is realistic?
Yeah, maybe she’s not a collaborator. Fair’s fair to level with us.
That’s fine.
But then what?
Khirad, that’s my question. It’s not enough to simply point out what the bill doesn’t do!
In case you missed it:
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201003150057
Well Rush, you called Obama a “Third World President” the other day. No, you’re the leader of the mutinous party dragging us like an anchor and intent on driving us into a shoal – and arming yourselves like the pirates in Libertarian paradise Somalia to “take back your country”; especially after congress passes this law “illegally” – “worse than Watergate“.
Thank you Khirad! and since someone asked about what reforms will kick in immediately:
Shit I’ve got to quite posting the same thing and read before I write. Your list is better than mine. 😉
😆 KQ– happens to me all the time! I get excited when i read something on another site and post it only to find that someone already had. No worries!!
Think of it as “reinforcement.” 🙂
There ya go! That’s a perfect way to look at it. Besides, sometimes the thread is long, and the original gets lost.
Sheesh, I cannot count the times I had to modify a message out of excitement. Once, the original was only two posts below.
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One form of this deeming provision could provide that when the House votes to approve the special rule for the reconciliation bill (or, alternatively, when the House votes to pass the reconciliation bill), the House is simultaneously considered to have voted for and passed the Senate-passed health care overhaul. In short, the vote on the temporary rule also provides for passage of the Senate-passed health care bill.
it is a sound, logical process that has been used literally hundreds of times. Nothing new or strange here.
Did not mean to steal your words. I wrote it was use “literally hundreds of times” after you did but I swear I did not read your post first. 😉
those words belong to the English language. Feel free… 😉
and, for the record, I concur with your analysis/rebuttal of BT’s assertions.
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Well, let the Roberts court kill it then.
If they deem it unconstitutional, then they should nullify all the Republican legislation that used the procedure retoactively, it seems to me.
and for exactly that reason, the SCOTUS won’t open that Pandora’s Box (imho)
I don’t think it matters what President Obama wants as far as procedure, what matters is that the House and Senate follow its own rules to legally pass any legislation. Reconciliation and Deem & Pass are tried and true methods for passing legislation. I am positive that President Obama would not care how it was passed as long as it was passed legally.
Obama called for an up or down vote– meaning reconciliation in the Senate. He said nothing about the House–which has different rules.
That said, let the Republicans try to take it to the Supremes if they want to– the procedure has been used over 100 time before.
And it amounts to a vote on the senate bill. I don’t blame Pelosi for doing it this way. She doesn’t trust the Senate — and she’s got plenty of history to base that reservation on.
Me neither, Nellie. Pelosi is maybe one of the most effective Speakers of all time.
Yep, love Nancy. She’s really smart.
If there is not going to be a vote on the bill then why isn’t it law now. This “self executing rule” has been used in the past literally hundreds of times so the only people who are against using these arguments against it now are people that want the bill to fail for whatever reason. You can say the same for people who are for the legislation but the huge exception is that this rule has precedent. The size of the bill is totally beside the point.
I find it very telling that the argument from the Right is now solely based on procedures to pass the bills and not the substance of the bills, beyond the tired “gummint takeover” meme.
Here’s there “procedure” that shouldn’t be used:
http://www.themonkeycage.org/selfexecute.jpg
exactly. the obstructionist argument is predicated on an erroneous assumption that deem & pass is novel. nearly all the arguments being made only hold water if the listener does not question or research the issues.