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KQµårk 死神 On November - 15 - 2009

ksm1The right wing has launched an all out deluge of criticism on AG Holder and President Obama because they have decided to try KSM and top Gitmo detainees in American civil courts.  While I’ve read over half a dozen articles about how much the right wing, victims and even Senator Webb .  This is the problem with the purist progressive mindset that has engulfed the progressive and liberal base.  Many of us can no longer support the president because we do not support him on every issue so when he and his administration does offer real change he is a man on an island. Progressives and liberals need to stop worrying about President Obama being a pure progress, he never was or pretended to be.  If we let the right wing take over this debate in particularly with their expected torrent of lies and vial we only have ourselves to blame if these trials are halted and Gitmo is not closed in time.

Senator Webb’s statement

“I have never disputed the constitutional authority of the President to convene Article III courts in cases of international terrorism. However, I remain very concerned about the wisdom of doing so. Those who have committed acts of international terrorism are enemy combatants, just as certainly as the Japanese pilots who killed thousands of Americans at Pearl Harbor. It will be disruptive, costly, and potentially counterproductive to try them as criminals in our civilian courts.

Judges could free detainees moved to U.S.

Huffy is pimping this NYP story Daniel Pearl’s dad is sickened by Obama’s 9/11 trial decision.

Palin on 9/11 Defendants: ‘Hang ‘Em High’

Giuliani On 9/11 Trials: Obama Giving Favor To ‘Terrorists’ And Endangering New York

This trial’s an error on New York Post

To his credit Glenn Greenwald is calling out the right wing for them using the fear card to fight the upcoming trials, though he is still tempering his support.

And of course the right wing echo chamber is attacking the president bowing and pushing the apology meme about his trip to Asia.

Obama Gives Japan’s Emperor a Wow Bow – Andrew Malcolm, LA Times

Why is the U.S. President Bowing? – Scott Johnson, Power Line

Will Obama Apologize for Hiroshima & Nagazaki? – Richard Halloran, RCP

Written by KQµårk 死神

My PlanetPOV contact is [email protected] Proud Dem whose favorite hobby is cat herding. The GOP is not a political party, it's a personality disorder. Cancer, Heart Failure and Bush Survivor.

71 Responses so far.

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  1. KevenSeven says:

    The president fucked me (as a senator) when he voted in favor of Telecom immunity.

    Goddamit. Yet he has my support.

  2. Kalima says:

    Just read your link about the President bowing to the Emperor. Not only is this an insult to a man who had nothing to do with WW11 but a greater insult to the Japanese people who signed a treaty after the war to never fight or engage in wars again. It would be as if the Japanese still hate all Americans for Hiroshima and Nagasaki or people hating all Germans because of Hitler and his Nazi band of murderers. It’s pure nonsense, an excuse to hate and Andrew Malcolm, LA Times needs his words stuffed one by one into the place that the sun never shines. [email protected] moron!!

    • nellie says:

      There’s a lot of ignorance in this country. And it is used all the time by the right wing to keep people from understanding each other.

      • bitohistory says:

        A funny aside. My great-grand mother went to her grave telling people that she was Dutch. She was German. Their was a great deal of prejudice to Germans in her area against them because of WWI and later WWII. She was a kind and gentile soul. The family always had a good chuckle but then we never “walked in her shoes.”

        • Khirad says:

          Like the the Pennsylvania Dutch or the lost Dutchman Mine, etc! Hey, just missing an ‘e’! Seriously, my Grandmother came from a German community in the Midwest. She grew up hearing German all the time. After the two wars though hardly anyone could speak it anymore. They were afraid of being singled out, seen as unpatriotic, or worse, so they banned themselves from speaking amongst themselves and in front of the children (this is also an unfortunate characteristic in the Indian-American community, for some reason, to go overboard on assimilating). I’ve looked into it, and this German-American experience was not unique.

          I somewhat resent having to take it in High School and a little in college building a fantasy of it having been passed on, but, unlike tight communities like the Greeks, or Latinos, etc., would have likely assimilated fully to English by then anyway and I’m just self-consciously kidding myself. And, while fully aware of German guilt I’ve never fully grown up with it instilled from birth. It just makes me bristle when I hear stupid Nazi comments or when I was teased along those lines by the Spanish students (don’t worry, we teased the French class in turn!), many of whom, ironically, had German last names -- Idioten! Makes me want to get out my nifty German swearing dictionary just thinking about it! Honestly, that’s what my never-great, sloppy German skills have deteriorated to.

          • Kalima says:

            LOL, go for it Khirad. Swearing in German sounds so hostile and really is a lot of fun.

            When we were living together in London, I taught my hubby a few swear words for fun thinking he would soon forget them again. On our first visit to my parents, my mother, a tall woman, picked him up in her arms to hug him. To my utter embarrassment he spoke his first words to her in the German I had taught him. He said “Leck mich am Arsch” translated word for word, no I won’t do that here, so I’ll go with “Kiss my arse” instead.

            The look my mother gave me over the top his head was worth a thousand words and I was on dish washing duty the whole weekend.

            • Khirad says:

              Not only great swearing when you’re angry, but when you’re drunk! It’s funny, I also developed a habit of it so I wouldn’t get in trouble. It actually got so ingrained that when I stub a toe I let out an involuntary Schei

            • Kalima says:

              I swear only in German in our house, it makes my hubby crack up every time and he doesn’t like the F-word, he says it doesn’t suit me, whatever that means. My sister has a habit of blurting it out when she’s mad but never in front of her three kids. We lived together in London for a few years so it’s all her fault. :)

              Verpiss Dich means PO or get lost.

        • Kalima says:

          As small children in Germany, we were taught collective guilt, we never really lose it and sometimes can’t because of aggressive and somewhat hateful comments when we name the country of our birth. I have experienced this as recently as 10 years ago and had the sense to leave a dinner table to go home because of it.

          Deep rooted hate is a factor in many things that happened way before we were born and it’s universal unfortunately but the following innocent generations still bear the brunt of past memories and some will suffer because of this.

          • KQuark says:

            I always wondered about but never asked anyone of German origin our of respect. Thanks for sharing.

            I’m sure being from Deutschland and being raised Roman Catholic that guilt trip was something. It was bad enough growing up Irish Catholic in the states.

            • nicole473 says:

              My Mother was a child in Wurzburg, Germany during WWII, also RC, and she felt guilt until the day she died in 2004.

            • Kalima says:

              We are from Essen- Heisingen, a small suburb of Essen. The rest of my mother’s siblings settled around Bonn.

              When my mother and I joined my stepfather in England, I remember how hard she tried to fit in, how hard she tried to lose her strong accent, it pained me. Later I went to night classes to do exactly the same, my early school days were a horror story of beatings, xenophobia and insults, so I often went back to my grandparent in Germany from the age of 9 to 13. Children can be very cruel, especially when they hear their parents spouting the same hate at home.

            • Kalima says:

              Yes the guilt and shame was passed on from my grandparents and we were also lectured as tiny things in school, the memory of this follows us to adulthood when the guilt and shame feels even greater at times.

              LOL being brought up a RC certainly didn’t help because even the innocent kids like myself, had to make up stories of being bad for our confessions, it was a confusing time to be sure.

          • bitohistory says:

            Thank you for your insight. Like I said I never had to go through what she had to face.

            • Kalima says:

              I was sorry to read that about your grandmother. I will always name the country of my birth out of respect for my mother who was Swedish by birth and adopted by German friends of my maternal grandmother. Out of respect and admiration for my German grandparents who taught me, respect, compassion, humility and a love of people different in appearance or religious beliefs at a very early age.

              I thank them all and miss them all too.

          • nellie says:

            I think something similar goes on in the U.S. when the topic of slavery comes up. It is so emotionally charged, we still don’t deal with it well. Or the effects on the generations that are living with that legacy.

            • Kalima says:

              Yes nellie, you are right. I feel that many are ashamed and the ones who spew the hate are too ashamed to admit that they are ashamed. They reconcile this by being bigots, racists, xenophobes and naysayers for the rest of their miserable existence. I hope that they develop painful ulcers from all the bile they cough up in public.

      • Kalima says:

        They only make themselves look bad to the people who know something or genuinely care about the history and cultures of other countries.

        Those who believe this crap, enjoy being led by their nose rings and I see no path of enlightenment for them on the horizon. I pity them but do not feel sorry for them in the least. Everyone has a choice.

        • whatsthatsound says:

          The problem is there are so MANY of them! The U.S. has about 320 million people, so if by a conservative estimate you put the yahoo quotient at fifteen percent, that’s the whole population of England! The U.S. is Too Big To Fail (cross cultural sensitivity and international knowledge) but we are at best, C- students in this regard.

          • Kalima says:

            I’m glad that in my experience on this the 3rd site since starting to blog about 2 years 5 months ago, I have sought out, come to know and become friends with some of the best and enlightened people out there. I don’t fear the arseholes, I have little, in fact nothing to say to them. Their lack of logic makes me feel dizzy.

        • nicole473 says:

          Well said. I completely agree.

  3. Kalima says:

    Sen. Webb’s statement is out of context when he compares the pilots of the planes which attacked Pearl Harbour, it was war time and what happened on 9/11 was terrorism, there is no logical comparison to be made.

    Terrorism is a criminal act against a group of innocent people to weaken or send a message to the leaders of that country and as a criminal act, the accused should be tried in a regular court and not a military one. Bush going into Afghanistan is what made it a war and not the actual attack on your soil. I’m amazed that people can’t see this more clearly but then again, look at the pea brains who are shouting the loudest.

    • bitohistory says:

      Did anyone “declare war” on the Red Brigade” in Germany/Italy?
      Did anyone declare war with Palestine after the ’64 Olympics?
      Or the fist bombing of of the World Trade center?
      The Japanese group and their poison gas attacks?
      No!
      They were treated as criminals. This is just so much war and fear mongering. When Pres. Clinton treated them as criminals, it was later said that he was “coddling”. War is last resort, not FIRST reply!

      • nellie says:

        If my memory serves, we never declared war to go into Afghanistan or Iraq. Bush turned our country into a band of hysterical vigilantes. And the right wing is trying to keep us in that mode.

        It’s a very destructive group of people.

      • KQuark says:

        Exactly the ironic part about the start of WWII with Japan was that the Japanese did “try” to declare war against the US but it was never communicated through proper channels.

        Of course you can go with the woo woos who claim the Fed started WWII.

    • KQuark says:

      Exactly Kalima. The Japanese pilots were soldiers directed by their leadership and it was the Japanese leadership that were put on trial for starting a war of aggression. But the pilots were never tried and should not have been tried. It’s simply a terrible argument that I would expect a Republican to use.

      • Kalima says:

        I agree that it would be something I expect to be used as an argument from the RW but not a Senator with a “D” following his name and of course the fact that it is a very poor comparison from a man with a military background himself.

        • bitohistory says:

          Pardon, I did not say a simple “Good Morning Kalima, hope all is well.

          • Kalima says:

            No need to apologize, I’m in and out.

            I hope to be feeling better after my trip to my hospital tomorrow afternoon. I hope that you are doing well too.

            I left a post of the President’s speech in Tokyo and hope that you had a chance to read it. It was powerful and excellent as usual and you could see that it came from the heart.

            Oh and good afternoon to you too.

            • bitohistory says:

              Yes I did get to read the speech and thanks for the update. After a few years at the hospital myself, I do wish you well. (no fun)
              {{{hugs}}}

            • Kalima says:

              Thank you, no fun at all. I’ve been going with the same illness, every 2 to 3 weeks for the last 22 years and often have to push myself to get ready to go these days. We get tired of being sick I think, I am.

            • KQuark says:

              Oh God yes. I hope everything goes well for you.

            • Kalima says:

              Thank you nellie, don’t worry, it’s something that I’ve learned to live with for more than 2 decades but I should be feeling better after my visit for another month. Keeping my fingers and toes crossed. :)

            • nellie says:

              I hope you feel better, Kalima. I didn’t know you weren’t feeling well.

            • Kalima says:

              Thank you KQ, second time lucky I hope, I don’t think that I can manage a third weekend of the same.

  4. bitohistory says:

    Where are the “lefties”? They are sitting in the comfort of their homes “blogging and commenting” and reading other blogs and comments.
    Maybe this is just plain ‘old school’ in this age…. But… Are you or have you gone to your local or county Demo meeting this month? Are you a precinct person? Do you write letters to your congress people? Do you call and visit your Senators/ Reps local office (and do you take a small group)? Do you walk a neighborhood for a progressive cause? Do you do the dreaded “phone banking”?

    Teabaggers do this chit.

    Progressives BLOG!!

  5. bitohistory says:

    Today on Fareed Zakaria’s (sp) show said that the majority of the international answers to his question on Prez. Obama, were concerened with “when will he shut down Gitmo.” This still seems to be a major “black eye” and concern in the thoughts and minds of the rest of world.

    • KQuark says:

      Yup and having Democratic “friends” like Webb and the Senate refusing to finance the closing of Gitmo does not help.

      • bitohistory says:

        Webb is from a state that depends on the military and it’s complex. He wants that Senate job. He will be “on the floor” during “morning business” expounding and explaining and try to get out of this statement. It will not be reported!!

        • Khirad says:

          I still remember Webb opening the Senate for like five minutes a day to stop Bush from a recess appointment. He’s not been all bad. He seemed to relish sticking it to the Repubs.

          That being said, he was once one of them, and a Virginia senator from the military to boot. I expect as much from him. Not to say I’m not disappointed, but neither am I surprised.

  6. nicole473 says:

    I hear ya, KQ. It makes me mad as hell too. Fukking hypocrites, and I am not referring to the right wing.

    • KQuark says:

      I know I’m tough on MY people being liberals and progressives sometimes but it’s only because I agree with everyone in principle. But we’ve got to understand how to maintain and use power in the real world and whining about everything is not productive.

    • kesmarn says:

      The MSM thinks it has done it’s duty to get the progressive point of view when it interviews Arianna! Lord help us!

      • bitohistory says:

        a few years ago, I read that it was called the “rolodex problem.” The producers go to their list and say: who’s hot, who’s got a book, who’s a dem, who’s a pub, who can we get? They have a small list and that is what they use. They don’t want new names. What kind of draw would that be? They are lazy. When was the last time an Izzy Stone type person been seen on the telly? They think if they are having someone from “The Nation” on every 6 weeks. Whoopie! Gawd,Jon McCain has been on 16 times--after he lost!

      • nellie says:

        It just galls me that she has become the de facto spokesperson for the progressive movement. We need some new voices out there.

        • kesmarn says:

          I love James Carville and Michael Moore, myself, but the right gets so much more air time (thanks to FOX) that they really seem like voices in the wilderness.

  7. kesmarn says:

    One thing the right feels that it can always, always count on is the fact that the left will splinter into hundreds of factions and find itself unable to govern. It would be great--once--to prove them wrong. That would require the left adopting the iron will power and solidarity of the right, and I hope we can prove equal to the task. “Divide and conquer” is a cliche, but it is one because it’s so true.

    The problem is, there are a million different ways to be a decent person. But it’s incredibly simple to be a money-worshipping son of a bitch. So unity is easy for the right. Diversity is our weakness and our strong point at the same time.

    • kesmarn says:

      Sorry, guys. Got pulled away suddenly, so I left this in mid-air. Yes, KQuark, I hear you when you say “anti-establishment to a fault”! There are times we can’t afford to be hippies.
      And thanks, nicole, for your words of support!

    • nicole473 says:

      kesmarn said:
      “”One thing the right feels that it can always, always count on is the fact that the left will splinter into hundreds of factions and find itself unable to govern. It would be great

    • KQuark says:

      I understand your point on one hand but why can’t the left get behind Democratic leaders on progressive policies? I’m not asking the left to be lock step behind Democratic leaders on issues they don’t support. I see group think on the left as well but it’s always anti-establishment to a fault.

      • nellie says:

        The disagreement doesn’t bother me as much as the childish pouting. All of a sudden the president is a “fraud” or “Bush light” — just petulant bitterness that doesn’t make any sense. And then the hostility and insulting language. The president gets enough of that from the right. So he ends up getting pilloried from both directions.

        All this while he’s doing a really good job!!!!

        I fully support this president, even when I disagree with him. Where I disagree, I just work harder to get my views known. I wish progressives would learn that simple political reality — and get some sophistication. No wonder the country keeps moving to the right.

  8. BigDogMom says:

    I like to believe that Obama is going to do what is right for this country irregardless what the press or some of the Dems think. I also think he understands that support for certain policies are not going to be there.

    He acknowledged during the campaign that we will need to change the thinking and the way things are done in Washington, for both parties.

    Hopefully he will continue to take the higher moral ground and let’s hope that the good guys finish first this time…

  9. Grabamop/Obama20082012 says:

    Just because I don’t agree 100% with Obama does not mean I don’t support him overall. I think the expectations were built a tad hight when he was elected (sarcasm intended, they were sky high). I agree with him a trying these men in criminal court and let the chips fall where they may. How would we like another country treat our citizens in the manner of Palin……Her opinion should not even matter, simple inane solutions to cater to her simpleton base. I have confidence that no one will escape and it they do, I hope they go for Giuliani first…

  10. nellie says:

    The onslaught of attacks against this president, from the left and the right, is stunning. I’m going to say something a little controversial, but I think the racism is not only happening on the right. Some of the left wing is acting as if they did Mr. Obama a giant favor by electing him, and if he doesn’t bend to their will at every moment, he’s some kind of upstart.

    That’s my take. I’m not happy with the left right now. I didn’t see this kind of vitriol from the left when Clinton was in office, enacting essentially GOP policy.

    • KQuark says:

      I don’t think it’s overt racism but I do think progressive stereotyped Obama when he was running for office. Because he’s African American they thought he was ultra liberal. But anyone who read his books or actually listened to his speeches knew he was not. Again it’s one sector of the white community not understanding that African American culture is not monolithic, my wife is much more conservative than me on crime and punishment issues for example. The president is consistent, he’s got a progressive vision but is pragmatic in practice while former President Clinton was more conservative at his core. Of course everyone bases the president’s performance on expectations an in many cases people expected the him to be something he never was. Afghanistan is the perfect example because he said he wanted to focus on the Af-Pak region and send more troops but many progressives are acting like he said we were going to leave Afghanistan when he entered office.

      • nellie says:

        I think what you say is true. And I think the stereotyping is part of the problem that I’m seeing. People not only didn’t read his books, they weren’t listening to what he said. This man has been the most consistent president in my memory in terms of doing what he said he was going to do. It’s why I had to think hard when I chose between Barack and Hillary. He is a centrist.

        • escribacat says:

          Hi Nellie. I’m just curious — did you vote for Obama or Hillary in the primary? I voted for Hillary. I was bummed when she didn’t get the nomination too, but I confess I just really wanted to see a woman president. I quickly developed respect and enthusiasm for Obama.

          • nellie says:

            I voted for Obama. The selling point for me was that he was a constitutional lawyer. There were positions he took that I disagreed with — that I still disagree with. But the constitutional mess, imo, was our toughest challenge. The two of them are really quite similar. I like Hillary as SOS. I’m glad that’s the position she ended up with.

            • escribacat says:

              Yes, I’m happy with Hillary as SOS as well. I think all is as it should be.

        • KQuark says:

          To me Nader made the most racially insensitive comments during the campaign when he implied Obama was not acting black. It is the best example of the kind of racial insensitivity we are seeing from some of the left today. A white man telling a black man how to act goes to the heart of what racism still exists in my opinion. I know if someone told me how I should act as an Irish American it would fucking set me off.

          • nellie says:

            Thank you, KQuark. That’s exactly the kind of thing I’m talking about. Not only telling a Black man how to act, but proscribing (expecting, accepting) such a narrow range of action — of being. It’s ridiculous. And it really tees me off.

    • javaz says:

      I agree with you.
      I do think race is most definitely involved and the corporate media is hard at work in trying to make our president fail.

      I’m not worried about it, though, because the deal breaker on whether or not Obama gets a second term will be jobs, imho.
      We’ve got three more years and the economy is starting to show signs of improvement.

      Goodness, but I do hate to bring up Sister Sarah since she should be irrelevant, but yesterday afternoon for the first time in months, I caught Chris Matthews on Hardball.
      I could not believe that Matthews predicted Sarah Palin as the front runner for the GOP in 2012, and he predicted that she will win Iowa and New Hampshire.
      I laughed at him, until I realized that he was serious!

      If Matthews prediction turns out to be correct, Obama is a shoo-in for a second term.

      Our media is such a joke.
      Sister Sarah is nothing more than a media creation, yet by the constant attention the joke of a woman receives and with pundits actually making these silly predictions as if the Wasilla-Hillbilly is a force to be reckoned with, well, this shows what happens when corporations decide what’s best for the USA.

      That’s my 2 cent rant for the afternoon!

      • nicole473 says:

        I HATE Sarah Palin.

        But, it concerns me deeply when I see the left counting her out. And nearly everyone on the left does it.

        She is dangerous. She appeals to those who feel disfranchised, and are the proud owners of 2-digit iqs. There are many of those types in this country. Too many for comfort.

        I will make my own prediction. She will be in the running in 2012, and I will not be in the least bit surprised to see her take the nomination. I hope I’m wrong.

        • nellie says:

          I don’t hate Palin. She’s a hapless catastrophe.

          But I hate the media and the punditry for treating her as a viable public servant. They are using the same “treat as celebrity” approach with Palin that they are using with Barack. The problem is, you can inflate a nobody using that approach. Look at the celebrities who command so much attention — and have very little substance.

          This approach — treat as celebrity — allows the media to create a false parity between Barack and Palin. But I don’t think voters are that frivolous. Maybe the fringe, but not the majority. I don’t believe she can elected, unless she runs for the House in Michele Bachman’s district!

          • nicole473 says:

            She isn’t “hapless”, Nellie.

            And if she were, it doesn’t really matter because as you say, the media and pundits are treating her as viable.

            Unfortunately, I have less faith in the voters than you do.

        • PepeLepew says:

          Yeah, whenever I see an HP poster say, “Boy, I hope she’s the GOP nominee in 2012,” I always say, “be careful what you wish for…”


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