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AdLib On March - 5 - 2010
Categories: Vox Populi

Written by AdLib

My motto is, "It is better to have blogged and lost hours of your day, than never to have blogged at all."

173 Responses so far.

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  1. SueInCa says:

    Well I can see I missed some lively conversation. I have been over in the “write your own blog” area writing for my series on the Christian Right. So I will just say good night to everyone here.

    And Kalima

    If you like chocolate, coconut and marshmallow all rolled in to one small candy cup, you would love Mallo Bars or Cups as they are legally called. They are similar to a Cup O Gold that we used to have here in the states but generally were only sold on the east coast, kind of like certain brands of chips are only sold back east. They are all my favorite things in one concoction.

  2. Kalima says:

    Instead of speculating on another financial crash over there which would include us in Europe and Asia again too, I would be more worried about the 80% of economic growth in China and their impending or by some accounts, already in progress housing “bubble” and what it would mean to America if China suddenly decided to ask for the return of their loans. As it stands now, it appears that China “owns” almost 60% of America.


    • kesmarn says:

      Kalima, don’t you wonder if China wouldn’t be in the same position that American banks are in, regarding their customers’ credit card debt? When it comes to demanding repayment, the answer might be: “Take a ticket and get in line!”

      • AdLib says:

        Actually, the ironic thing is that China could be in the position the U.S. Government was in and the U.S. would be in the position of U.S. banks.

        China would have to see the U.S. as

        • kesmarn says:

          Just had a final thought. Will the American debt-laden public ever be put into the ‘too big to fail’ category by the American banking system?

          Because, in a very real sense, we are.

          Now, that I’ve babbled my last babble, I’ll sign off for the night! ‘Night, all!

          • Kalima says:

            Good night kesmarn, thanks for the laughs, especially the “man-tan” down below on the thread.

            Rest well and take care.

            • kesmarn says:

              Good night, Kalima! Wish I could take credit for having made that one up, but I read it somewhere!

              I missed crossing paths with b’ito today, somehow. If you see him, tell him I said hello/good-bye. Till tomorrow!

            • Kalima says:

              It’s a first for me so take the credit.

              I didn’t see bito today but will pass on your Hello when I see him. Good night.

        • kesmarn says:

          Gigantic world-wide games of chicken!

          What fun.

      • Kalima says:

        LOL, I could just imagine the Chinese reaction to that line.

          • Kalima says:

            It certainly wouldn’t be “????ok.” It’s supposed to read “Well ok then.”

            WordPress wouldn’t print my Chinese characters, they inserted ???? instead, what a bummer.

            • Khirad says:

              You’re preaching to the choir. How many times I’ve wanted to insert Farsi and Hindi, I cannot tell you.

            • Kalima says:

              :) I’m glad that I’m not alone but so annoying and how dare they change it into question marks. How very rude!!

            • kesmarn says:

              LOL! Kalima, the quizzical “????” works as a representation of the expressions on their faces.

              Kind of a “huh???” look!

            • Kalima says:

              πŸ˜† Your flattery consumes me. As for my Chinese, I spent 2 weeks in Hong Kong years ago, does that count?

            • kesmarn says:

              Hey! No shame! We are all already fully cognizant of your amazing linguistic abilities!

              As far as I can tell, you can communicate in German, Japanese, English and Chinese, right? Any others? I’m jealous!

            • Kalima says:

              I thought that I would shock everyone with my knowledge of Chinese???? and look what happened, oh the shame! 😳

  3. AdLib says:

    Just to clarify, sometimes NWO is conflated with corporate domination, one represents a global conspiracy while the other merely represents that those with the most wealth have the most power.

    The degree of control varies from nation to nation though the intent is simple, the more the wealthy can control the political and social power in a nation, the wealthier and more dominant they will be.

    Where there’s a fork in the road is whether there is a grander vision and collaboration on One Global Government.

    Just understanding the insatiable greed and lust for power of these entities would tip one off to how undesirable it would be to them to accede ultimate power over to others or an overall organization.

    Certainly, there is collusion on how entities conduct themselves in different regions but I would suggest it is more like, “You can rob from your people there if I can rob the same way from people over here.” And, “Hey, wouldn’t it be great for our profit margins if we could eliminate the middle class and turn them into low paid serfs, heavily in debt and struggling to pay their bills so they’re desperate for whatever salary we offer them?”

    That dynamic is very simple. With a strong middle class, more revenue was shared with workers, CEOs earned about 30 times the salary of their average employee. Today it is 300 times. Do any CEOs want to go back to making 1/10th of what they’re making today so the balance can be shared with employees? Of course they want to keep chopping away at the middle class, they profit from it.

    So, IMO, there is a lot of consensus and collaboration among the wealthiest people and corporations around the world on economic and political control but I see them as independent tyrants.

    • kesmarn says:

      One of the earliest uses of the term “New World Order” though, was during the second administration of Woodrow Wilson.

      “At the end of the war, U.S. President Woodrow Wilson led the international effort to establish a new world order that would guarantee world peace and stability. Central to this process was the creation of the League of Nations, an inter-governmental organization (i.e., an organization based on a formal agreement between three or more governments of nation-states) whose primary function was to keep peace in the world through ordered relationships among the member nations.”

      The term seems to have morphed several times since then.

      • Khirad says:

        I still say Bah

      • AdLib says:

        Yes, it was clearly intended then to mean a new era of peaceful cooperation between nations.

        As you say, the phrase was morphed over time into meaning a fascist One Global Government conspiracy.

        My question is, how many huge conspiracy theories ever turned out to be correct?

        • Blues Tiger says:

          The use of ATM cards and electronic banking that would moniter and digitaly record your movements and transactions that could be accessed easily by Government or Law Enforecment was considered a “Tin Foil Hat” Rightwingnut lefty loony Conspiracy Theory in the not so distant past… 😯

          How did you feel about the idea of camera’s everywhere in the 70’s?

          • AdLib says:

            The ATM thing was never an odd thing to me, of course your bank has this data and if a crime was related to it, not a surprise that law enforcement could get access with a search warrant.

            As for cameras in public places, I hate that. Here too,it’s not surprising since cameras have been in banks, casinos, parking structures, malls and plenty of public places for security reasons for a long time. It is the idea of cameras on city streets that I find creepy and a potential slippery slope.

            In the UK they have whole towns under complete video surveillance, awful.

        • kesmarn says:

          Exactly, AdLib.

          The uber-wealthy really have no need to conspire. They’re so naturally in sync with each other’s goals and tactics that they don’t have to.

          I apologize for repeating myself by saying that there are a million diverse ways to be a good, decent human being, but being a money-grubbing SOB is extremely unified, simple, and straight-forward. Worship money and have no empathy. That’s it. That’s why cons rarely battle within their little enclaves while the left is often a free-for-all. Literally!

    • KQuark says:

      At least OPEC makes no bones about the fact that they collude.

      BTW get ready for $3.5-5.0/gal gas in the next few months with the election year and the end of the two year contracts coming. It won’t be quite as bad because of our deflationary period but they will spike. It’s interesting the contracts coincide with American Congressional election cycle for the House.

      • AdLib says:

        One of the oddly forgotten incidents that accelerated the economic crash was the price manipulation and inflation of oil and gas.

        Seeing what was coming down the pike, the oil and gas industry acted like the banks in trying to grab as much as they could before the hammer came down and in the process, hastened and deepened the economic crash.

        They sucked billions out of consumer pockets just before the crash.

        And people seem to have completely forgotten $5.00 -- $6.00/gallon gas and not being able to afford filling up their tank.

        There was widespread knowledge among banks, corporations and the wealthy that the crash was coming, well before it happened.

        What’s worrying is that we don’t know what they know right now. Is another crash coming? We won’t know until it happens. But we should learn from what happened this time around, any juicing or accelerating of price hikes could be an indicator of corps trying to grab what they can before an impending crash hits.

        • kesmarn says:

          People do seem to have amnesia on that, AdLib (and on so many other things, too). Those hyper-inflated gas prices caused people to run up lots more credit card debt. They had to get to work, and at $50 a crack to fill up (if they were lucky) their tanks, they were forced to pull out the plastic. It’s going to take years just to pay off the gas that was charged during that Bush era price-gouging spree.

          And now we may be in for round two.

          • AdLib says:

            Add to that the complication that people have less credit available from using it up then and since then, maybe even due to being out of work.

            Add to that, the banks have slashed the credit limits on credit cards and this time, it could be far more serious.

            • kesmarn says:

              Indeed! We may not have seen the worst of this by a long shot. I hope I’m wrong.

        • Blues Tiger says:

          Many people are warning about it… We warned about the last one for years but few listened…

          I am trying to keep up with what is happening in Europe… The Pound Sterling may be in trouble and there are some who are wanting to make a move against the dollar and replace the standard it is used for by another currency…

  4. KQuark says:

    OK now I’m throwing this out there knowing the NWO is a woo woo myth and that we are not socially or technologically ready for one world government but isn’t eventual one world government the only way to really stop war and poverty even though we are hundreds if not thousands of years away from that system?

    I guess this is my Star Trek, John Lennon Utopian thinking kicking in on this one.

    • kesmarn says:

      I guess I would say that one world government would probably be the BEST way to really stop war and poverty, maybe not the only way. I have a hunch that just about the only thing that would get that accomplished in the next few millenia, though, would be a massive, imminent and totally terrifying threat from the outside. A threat to all of humanity. Then all our petty economic and racial “differences” would have to evaporate in favor of circling-the-wagons solidarity.

      • Blues Tiger says:

        That would be assumming all the religious fanatics, political idealists, tribal leaders and patriotic nationals would actually agree on the threat…
        My personal opinion is that the idea that everyone would lay all differences aside to save the Earth or humanity is a flawed theory, based on the historical records of the human race…

        • kesmarn says:

          I suppose I’m thinking of how even the most dysfunctional, devour-our-own families will suddenly close ranks and defend themselves from an outside threat, when that arises. I think humans have that instinct.

        • AdLib says:

          Yep, any concept of a One World Government is instantly exploded when one remembers that the Middle East, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc. would necessarily need to be included.

          Oh, and Alaska too.

        • KQuark says:

          I have to agree if it happened now. Actually the movie “Contact”, great book too, would be a much more likely scenario than say an “Independence Day” scenario. The way the countries of the world reacted to first contact would be like scared little children.

          Like FrankenPC said I think a species would have to be so evolve socially and technologically for stellar travel that they would most likely be peaceful. Unless they are as arrogant as humans they would think we are ants.

          • Blues Tiger says:

            Have you ever considered the theory that we are the most advanced collection of beings in the known universe?
            There is always the chance that we are the best that has evolved so far…

            • KQuark says:

              If we are that’s pretty pathetic and a huge waste of space if we are the best the universe has to offer. People do think that but I think that’s based on the arrogant way we always look at our species. Frankly humans still think we are the center of the universe in practical terms.

              Logically speaking the probability of intelligent life is much higher than the probability of a supreme being. The probability of a supreme being is a null set because there simple is no physical evidence for it’s existence. While the probability that there is sentient life is one because we exist. That changes the mathematics quite a bit. So that makes the probability of other intelligent life not that improbable at all. I know you are not saying there is a supreme being but the comparison holds true.

              I know with the cynicism people have these days as opposed to the optimism we had not too long ago the prevailing philosophy for the existence of intelligent life is more pessimistic but I think attitudes have change more than the universe since then.

              Now as far the probability of our species contacting other intelligent life, that probability is very low but we’ve only been looking for other species for about 20 years out of our 200,000 years as a species.

            • kesmarn says:

              …What a depressing thought…


            • AdLib says:

              Have you ever considered the theory that we are the most advanced collection of beings in the known universe?

              Excluding teabaggers of course.

              The sad thing is that people on another planet who think we exist will be ridiculed mercilessly with “tinfoil hat” jokes.

    • Kalima says:

      You’ve started something now K. I’m about “to venture to a place that no other woman has dared venture before” my kitchen, where I will try to cook some lunch.

      See you in a bit.

      • KQuark says:

        Yup woman have found the miracle drug that makes them 50% smarter then men called estrogen. I know you’ve heard that one before but just saying.

        • Kalima says:

          Yes, I’ve heard it before :) but my Japanese hubby won’t believe it. It’s not a thing men should believe over here, they might lose face or something.

          Silly really, I’m awfully good at finding things.

    • escribacat says:

      If we ever encounter beings from another planet, we’ll have a world government in about ten minutes.

    • AdLib says:

      In the world of Star Trek, materialism is transcended. Immense amounts of cheap, non-polluting energy and replicators that can create any material object, make money and banks trivial.

      Society has come to the conclusion that we are all a part of the same humanity and prejudices no longer trump that.

      It is quite an ideal image of the future and certainly worthy of being aspired to.

      Mainly, I just want a phaser and a transporter an I’d be cool.

    • SueInCa says:

      If the bankers of the world were not involved, it might be a nice thing, one race and that is mankind……………….

    • Kalima says:

      That would really depend on who’s in charge of the apple cart. It could either be a good thing or a “Mad Max” type of thing and I doubt that with so many differing opinions alone just in one country that it would ever work without fighting or wars without compromise, and we know how hard that is.

      It might just work if we were all high, all of the time. :)

  5. Blues Tiger says:

    Cher, The only comments I could find about NWO referred to Global Banking and Global Corporations, I couldn’t find any mention of President Obama… So I fail to understand the inquisitioning nature of your line of questioning… πŸ˜€

    • Chernynkaya says:

      BT, I certainly didn’t mean it as an inquisition, but just a straight question.

      You replied to Javaz somewhat cryptically. I am just asking what you agree with her about, if you don’t mind stating that, because she made several statements, and I have no idea which you were agreeing with, or if you agree with her about her opinion that --in the context of out discussion about Obama-- she said she thought we were fighting a New World Order.

      Whether she meant that Obama is part of that, I’ll let her explain. I took it to mean she does.

  6. KQuark says:

    I think some people fail to understand you need people inside and outside the system for real change. Inside the system is the hardest work because you still have to deal with most of the rules in the system.

    I know I fought the system from the inside on improving the environment. I use to get the same criticisms by people at my environmental club for working on the inside. But I would always tell them someone on the inside had to put into practice the environmental changes everyone wants.

    My strategy was simple but effective. I read up on all the European environmental regulations and every product I made when I had the power fit those stiffer regs. I got hell from the inside because there is almost always a higher cost with environmentally clean chemicals. I’m proud that I had a substantial impact on cleaning the rivers near papermills by using much more biodegradable surfactants than the current art.

    A purist would say just don’t be involved in that industry and picket it or something. The one’s on the inside pressure you to buy the cheapest raw materials to make more money. So I understand the type of criticism people who are in the system get from within and form external purists quite well. But I’ll tell you I’ve helped clean up more rivers from at least what our companies were adding more than any purist did by screaming on the sidelines, especially under such a hostile Republican environment when I was working.

    • Chernynkaya says:

      KQ Most people are not mature enough to deal with that reality. It is much more emotionally satisfying to blame and slam the door.

      having said that, I also-- as I think you do-- think there is an honorable place for protests and dissent. The important-- and tricky-- thing is to be sure we are protesting the right target. Those who are working on the inside to fix it are not the target.

      • KQuark says:

        I agree we did protest with our environmental club trying to save wetlands from developers. I’m honestly saying I had much more effect on the inside working the system. I have empathy for the people doing it from the inside because I’ve been there and many people on the outside characterize us all incorrectly.

        • escribacat says:

          KQ — I used to work for a bank (a couple banks). I used to travel a lot demonstrating a software system for international bankers who handle import/export transactions through letters of credit. Aside from ignorant people asking me if I could get them a loan, I had this one liberal friend who constantly got on my case about working for a bank. He had demonized all bankers. I eventually came to the conclusion that his brain had been unplugged and he relied only on ideology to do his “thinking” for him. Believe it or not, the vast majority of the international bankers I worked with were very liberal — like me. Granted, these weren’t investment bankers. Banks have a lot of different departments. And most of the people who work there aren’t debils.

          • KQuark says:

            People who think your profession defines you politics, except in extreme situations, just don’t understand how life works. My wife went to work as a systems developer with in an insurance company because her mother was hassled by insurance companies before her death and she wanted to change things. About half the people she worked with were about improving care and helping people and of course you had the people that just saw the bottom line. She likened it to a constant civil war and the major piece of software she developed was controversial because it actually was worked to pay for more claims overall which was offset by catching fraud. She left in 1999 because the civil war took it’s toll. I know dealing with insurance companies with healthcare (when I had it) or my disability there are people who care and those that simply don’t. The ironic part of my situation is that the private disability has approved my income with no delays or breaks for over four years but I still can’t get Federal SSDI because it’s administered by the state of GA and they won’t give you your entitlement until you have your day in court. So I have a very different experience and while I favor the public option to compete with private insurance I have no allusions that it would be so much better than private insurance once government puts restrictions on them.

        • Chernynkaya says:

          Yep, I agree.

  7. javaz says:

    I must go as my husband is sitting outside on the patio, and I really want to spend time with him, but this site is so addictive, and I so love it.

    I’ve got my mojo back on the blogging thing, thanks to my husband, and he’s never ever blogged before, but he’s written 2 articles here and he drops off an occasional comment.

    Plus, he’s more into the GROW than even I am.

    He’s been keeping in touch with that guy who produced a documentary, and my husband’s plans for this site and GROW are even bigger than mine.

    Have a good night all, and it was much fun sparring with you and agreeing with you.

    • Blues Tiger says:

      Have a good night javaz, just so you know your not alone in how you feel about certain things…

      • Chernynkaya says:

        BT, do you also think that Obama is ushering in a New World Order?

        • SueInCa says:

          I think it is strange that was brought up. I do not remember him ever saying that. Now Bush 1, Clinton, and others yes, but I have never heard Obama talk about it. Maybe I just missed that. The first pres to talk about it was Woodrow Wilson………….

          • Chernynkaya says:

            I am referring to a comment Javaz made this afternoon. I thought that’s what BT meant. I would like to know if anyone else feels that Obama is part of a NWO. I am upset about it.

            • SueInCa says:

              No, I knew that I guess I was not clear, I think the whole thing is ridiculous and cannot figure out how that deduction was made by Javaz. I guess I will go back and try to find her reasoning

            • Kalima says:

              Of course he’s not otherwise why is he trying to change your country for the better, why does he care more about what is right for the people and why has he accomplished more in his first year (undocumented by your media or the net) than almost any other President since President Roosevelt?

              What you are hearing is just the constant complaints from people who have no patience, who expected Obama to arrive bearing a magic wand with which to change Washington overnight. When that didn’t happen, they forgot their promises to him and started blaming him instead, it’s easier that way.

            • escribacat says:

              Cher, I don’t even know any conservatives who think that.

        • Kalima says:

          Oh God, does this mean that I have to buy more rolls of tin foil??

          • SueInCa says:

            You can get a good deal at the dollar store………..both the sheets and the rolls, you get variety

            • Kalima says:

              πŸ˜† I’ll send you a check to cover it, plus shipping.

            • Kalima says:

              Talking about ordering stuff, I just received my PlanetPOV t-shirts, it only took a month, I thought they had ended up in China. They are very well made but a word of warning, I like my clothes roomy because of painful shoulder joints, the L size wasn’t as roomy as I thought they would be, just in case everyone else decides that they would rather not squash and flatten their attributes/assets :)

              Mallo bars, am I missing something good?

            • SueInCa says:

              They also got a good supply of Mallo Bars in this year, yummy. I had to order them on the internet because they usually do not have them on the west coast. Now I have a supply in my freezer

        • Blues Tiger says:

          Thats an odd question…

          • Chernynkaya says:

            Sorry, BT, but Javaz said earlier that she believed that Obama is ushering in a NWO . So I don’t know what you mean when you are in agreement “about certain things…”

            • Khirad says:

              Hmm, I missed that. I guess, I’d like to know in what context, to fair. Like, seriously meant?

              Edit: I caught it below -- I think it was an honest mistake to bring up.

            • Chernynkaya says:

              How can one make an honest mistake if one is stating what they believe?

            • Chernynkaya says:

              Read it and decide. Maybe I am wrong. I HOPE I am wrong!!

              It’s on the Vox Pop or OT thread at 1:38 PM

            • escribacat says:

              That NWO stuff is pretty far on the rightwing fringe.

            • escribacat says:

              Cher — I agree 100%.

            • Chernynkaya says:

              I’d guess they are e’cat. People who believe that are every bit as bad as the far RW in my opinion.

            • escribacat says:

              Where left meets right. Very interesting. I’m thinking of several posters over yonder with whom I’ve exchanged some nasty posts. For them, Obama is a “colluding criminal,” which seems ridiculous to me. Are these the same folks?

            • Khirad says:

              Yup, KQ is right; unfortunately.

            • KQuark says:

              And leftwing unfortunately.

    • SueInCa says:

      Night Javaz
      We can disagree here and we do all the time because there are alot of opinions and it never hurts to question. If we did not we would be like the other sheep out there, but at the end of the day, we can sign off with a cordial good nite.

    • KQuark says:

      I thought you started the call for GROW.

  8. KQuark says:

    Here is a good article from The New Republic pointing out in detail the big difference between Dems and Repubs on HCR.


    Sink or Swim
    The GOP

  9. javaz says:

    If it helps you to feel better and vent your anger against me because you think we disagree, then feel free.

    But if you’ve ever read anything with an open mind that I’ve written here, you would recognize that we agree more than we disagree.

    Broad-brushing people and labeling them is so unfair, and this is supposed to be a site whereby we are supposed to have the ability to disagree with respect for each others opinions.

    • KQuark says:

      Oh please you were the one that came in with all this negativity and ridiculous claims. No we don’t agree that Dems are just like Repubs. That’s the type of apathy that got us Bush for eight years.

      Where were the teabaggers when Bush was in office?

      No teabaggers are happy to vote Republican for almost 30 years which got us into this situation, despite going against their self interests.

      Now when an African American is president and God forbid wants to change things and give more people access to healthcare, then they speak out. I don’t have to label them they label themselves with their misspelled racist anti-HCR slogans.

      Wake up Javaz and realize these teabaggers would be the same people sitting on their hands if McCain was president watching us go more down the corporate highway.

      • javaz says:

        You are preaching to the choir.

        You WAKE UP.

        Accept it.

        The politicians we have are the best that can be bought and paid for, and hell yes, that includes Obama.

        • KQuark says:

          Here goes the aggressive side again.

          Huh who can say we agree with something I never said?

          If Obama was “bought and paid for” he would just give up on HCR, climate and energy, immigration, etc…

          If you are so convinced of that I disagree profoundly.

          • javaz says:

            I’ve a question before I address your post --

            Who are you thinking is the aggressor?

            You or me?

            I want to think it’s going to be me.

            And with all due respect, in my very humble opinion, Obama is talking the talk, as are Democrats, but they are not going to deliver health care reform as YOU and I would like to see it, but they are going to bow to the corporate masters and deliver.

            • KQuark says:

              You are being passive aggressive like I said. You said we agree when we clearly don’t. It’s still a classic passive aggressive tactic used by people to control a debate. I’m being honest and passionate which is quite a difference.

              I’ve taken exception with two things you said and you still have not backed them up.

              How are Dems and Repubs the same?

              How is Obama “bought and paid for” when all the evidence is opposite on the biggest issue he is pushing?

  10. javaz says:

    May I say again how wonderful this site is, in that we can discuss things?

    I especially enjoy discussing things with Cher, because she challenges me, and we are on the same side, but do disagree at times.

    I love the discussions regarding religion with Cher, because Cher, you have taught me so much and you always make me reach deeper inside myself and think.

    We are discussing politics this time around, and my head is starting to hurt from trying to think!

    What is the other thing people should never discuss?
    Is it money?

    I suggest that topic next!


  11. javaz says:

    Okay, let me say that I have not lost hope in our country or Americans.
    But I agree with AdLib when he says we are facing WW3, and this war is against the New World Order.

    When Bush Sr. stood in front of the cameras all them years ago and said something about a thousand lights, and kinder, gentler nation and it was the first time that I heard that expression -- New World Order.

    I knew at the time that that didn’t sound good and did not understand what he meant, but I think I understand it now.

    Global economy, isn’t that the New World Order?

    Corporate control of the world.

    Those G-8 summits, except they’re up to G-20 now, aren’t they?

    Isn’t that a meeting every year of the leaders from the richest and most powerful countries that meet and hold summits to direct the world’s economies?

    Isn’t that what that’s all about?

    And isn’t that corporations running the world?

    It isn’t just us Americans being affected, but Europeans, Australians, and Asians.

    AdLib nailed it.

    It is World War 3 in the making, whereby all of us people globally, us working class people around the world must figure a way to take on the corporations.

    It’s a daunting task, and that’s why we must figure a way to educate the masses in this country to unite, because there are more of us than them.

    Oh dear, now I’m getting paranoid and thinking someone’s going to come after me for even speaking this way!


    But there has to be a way for people in this country to unite and people of the world -- industrialized world -- to unite and end the corporations hold on us all.

    I think it will happen, and not sure it will happen in my lifetime, but I truly believe that it will happen.

    Oh, maybe I should open a beer and chill out and watch American Idol.


  12. javaz says:

    There was something else that was brought up last night during the Vox Populi that sort of bothered me.

    I think there were two people who said something about urging their sons to leave our country and head for Canada.

    One of the sons explained that it wouldn’t matter, because what’s happening here is happening everywhere, and that son was absolutely correct.

    I would ask anyone considering moving to another country if they have actually lived in another country and became fully immersed in a different culture.

    We lived in France for 2 years, as you all know by now, and Montreal for 4 months, which was much less time, but we talked to people of those countries, and believe me, neither France nor Canada is utopia and both countries have deep-rooted problems as we do here.

    There is corruption everywhere and corporate influence, although the French do protest almost monthly it seems and their protests are really something to see because they are huge in numbers down the streets of Paris.

    And the police presence is huge, too, but I will say that we never saw violence of any kind or any arrests, even though they must happen at times.

    We seriously considered moving to Brittany in France for several reasons, but changed our minds, because honestly, there is no place like home.

    It’s KQ who always says that we have one of the lowest tax rates, and he is correct.

    We can get more house for a dollar here, and in reality, we can afford a home easier than those in France.

    Cost of living is out of this world in France when it comes to food, housing and gasoline and definitely taxes.

    They have many more problems, as does Canada, when it comes to immigration.

    Because both countries are somewhat socialist, and France is the most socialist country in Europe, so the French like to brag, immigration is a huge issue -- the rights of man -- or something like that is a saying in both countries.

    Unemployment in France is close to 20%, I believe, and not sure about Canada, but Canada has plenty of homeless people, too.
    That was one reason, and maybe the main reason why there were protests at the Olympics.

    The money spent on the Olympics could have helped the homeless problem in Canada, yet typical of hosting countries, including the US, the Olympic committees along with local government move the poor people out to build the Olympic villages and so that they will not be shown on TV.

    It’s better the devil you know, and besides, we as Americans should follow our ancestors and fight for our country instead of leaving it.

    That’s my .02 cents!

    • Khirad says:

      I tend to agree. I’ve never had the experience of living in another country (and in fact would love to), but I am an American first and I don’t like the idea of giving up on it. However; I’ve talked about leaving to Canada many times in jest when I get frustrated with her!

    • Hopeington says:

      javaz, your 2cents made a lot of sense.
      I am very happy I was born in America.

  13. javaz says:

    You guys had an intriguing Vox Populi discussion last night and very thought-provoking.

    I too fear more violence is on the horizon and that we are on the brink of a repeat of the summer of ’68.
    All it will take is one city to erupt, and then the domino effect will occur.

    People are angry and the anger is growing daily and FOX and the GOP are not helping in fueling the fire.
    They’re trying to steer that fire against President Obama and the fear of socialism, but if riots do break-out, it’s going to reach beyond that, imho.

    The difference in 2010 compared to 1968 is that more people are armed and people are not that stupid, and are angry at the rich, the corporations and the banks.

    If Michael Moore is correct in his predictions that a second bubble is about to burst and it will bring us to our knees, I do think that could be the flame that starts the fires burning.

    I believe that people can only be suppressed and oppressed for so long before they do something -- The French Revolution and the recent protests in Iran are examples.

    Some thing that I’ve been pondering lately is the level of intelligence of our elected officials.

    Certainly, our representatives are not the best and brightest that our country has to offer, and I wonder about the reasons that the best and the brightest are not stepping up to the plate.

    I’m not saying that all of our elected officials are sub-standard, but to me it seems that the majority are and that the majority that are, are easily bought and paid for or in other words -- open to corruption.

    We as a nation need better leaders with scruples, and where are those people?

    Where are the Abby Hoffmans or Martin Luther Kings of today?

    And shame on you naughty children for all the spit-wads plastering the walls and gum stuck under the seats, and the stale smoke left in the room doesn’t exactly smell like tobacco!

    I’ve taken names and am calling your parents!


    • AdLib says:

      In the 60’s, the riots and protests came from the Left, minorities, the poor and oppressed, the youth being sent to be slaughtered in Vietnam, etc.

      Today is very different because if things get that bad, it will be the Left and the Right rioting and protesting and they could be turning on each other instead of focusing on the corporations that are really to blame.

      This is all hypothetical and I am not a doomsayer but there is a possibility that social upheaval could occur but be deflected by corporations through MSM propaganda, to protect themselves of course, by urging right and left to blame and attack each other.

      At the same time, such instability would still undermine corporations so they will push all the pharma and distractions they can to keep Americans passive.

      Could a true movement, a collaboration of Left and Right revolt against corporate ownership of our democracy and nation?

      I wouldn’t bet on it. Look how people have been manipulated to oppose their own interests in favor of corporate interests on HCR.

      People would have to be too angry to listen to TV or radio to keep from being turned against each other. It is possible, the nation was united in that way at the beginning of the economic collapse.

      Just too bad that people need huge suffering or disasters to act as a community to defend their own interests.

      • Chernynkaya says:

        AdLib, we touched on this last night a little, and I’ve still got that bee in my bonnet.

        It is fun to bash the Right and to find the endless examples of their ridiculous and anti-democratic behavior-- indeed we DO need to keep a sharp eye on them. But I have begun, more and more, to see it as a big distraction! To reiterate for Vox Pop: The Reptilians are the minority Party. The far right-- including the Baggers, represent less than 20% of voters. Palin’s polls are in the very low numbers, yet she is represented in the media as if she were the winner of ’08.

        I want us (as Dems) to talk about real substance-- example of corporatism, of the DINO’s obstructionism, of what the DEMS can and should so to pass legislation and win elections, about areas where WE define the debate. I am sick of reading about the National Enquirer Party-- that’s what it is starting to feel like-- that we would rather read about the stupid, evil Reps, than about our own PArty problems and opportunities. I have a feeling we prefer to read about them because it is sometimes painful to read about US.
        That’s one reason I no longer post as HP-- it’s all about us v them and arguing uselessly with Neanderthals. It just feels like a waste of time and energy.

        Anyway, that’s my rant for the day.

        • KQuark says:

          The fight is definitely with the corporate Dems at least internally with Washington now because the right is just off the scale.

          I still don’t think the intentions of the so called “populist” right are pure. They don’t want real change they want to feel like they are back in control of the country again. Yes they are suffering like many in this country are but in many ways they are the ones to blame for this mess because of almost 30 years they have been voting against their self interests for an American that only existed because Dems made this country great at one time.

          • Chernynkaya says:

            KQ- Your are preaching to the choir here. :-) I agree with all you wrote.

            My beef is that we on the left spend so much time and energy talking about the lunatic RW antics. Again, I am not saying they should be ignored-- we would do so at our peril. But I am just tired of reading about them as if they are the problem.

            They are only part of the problem-- the BIGGER problem is getting legislation enacted within our own majority.

            That’s why I am asking the question about how Obama can actually “get tough” with the Congress. What are the tools a President-- any President-- has to do that? Bush didn’t have to get tough-- the Right is in lockstep. But the Dems are not, nor necessarily should be. So then, why all the Obama bashing, if there really is nothing that he CAN do? Or, if he can do something, what is it?

        • javaz says:

          I agree with you, Cher, and also want to add that there are a lot of people, and not all of them Republican voters, that consider themselves members of the Tea Party Movement, or they support the Tea Party Movement but they do not understand the real underlying issues of the movement.

          That’s something else that I’d like to see GROW do over time, is educate people, young and old and in between.
          And I think the way to do that, is not to focus on the Tea Party Movement or the GOP, but focus on the actual issues.

          And the actual issue is corporate influence.

        • AdLib says:

          As for HP, I view it now like a scientist looking through a microscope, with so much distance and detached curiosity.

          Why are people so drawn to pointless, eternal fighting with ignorant and hateful RWs? There is absolutely nothing to be accomplished, no minds to be changed and no thoughtful conversation to be held for long without being disrupted in a nasty way.

          I agree, I have no interest in focusing on attacking Repubs. That is not constructive and an utter waste of time.

          We should indeed be focusing on how we can work together with like-minded people to change things for the better, namely, get to the root of this evil which is the greed of corporations.

          This is the real WW III. The people against the global corporations. They are the tyrants who have been forcing people into economic oppression, they are the ones who have invaded and taken control over our government and society. They are the foes of The American Dream and American Democracy.

          As the old saying goes, if you don’t know you’re in a fight, you’ve already lost.

          Too many Americans are angry but don’t understand why things are the way they are. Perhaps in our working together, at the very least, we can help enlighten people that they have been in a fight for some time and have been losing each round because they’ve had their back turned.

          It’s time to fight back and fight back hard (but not violently).

          • javaz says:

            We did it again, AdLib!

            We said the same thing, but in a different way, but you do seem to verbalize things much better!

            • AdLib says:

              I think you said it very well yourself!

              Great minds, and there are many on The Planet, do think alike!

            • kesmarn says:

              AdLib, re: last night’s Vox Pop discussion--Michael Moore has some thoughts on Rahm Emmanuel’s replacement! I posted Moore’s open letter on the OT thread, for anyone who would like to have a look.

            • javaz says:

              That was something I saw on a Bill Moyers Journal awhile back, when there was a discussion on how to bring about change and starting a movement.

              Moyers said the way to do that is to join groups of like-minded people and go from there.

      • javaz says:

        I seem to recall it was the right vs the left even in the 60’s, but you are correct that this would be an entirely different ballgame.

        I really cannot fathom what would happen should such a thing occur, but if say the National Guard was called out in 2010 and if another Kent State or two happened, that might make the far right radical groups freak because they are anti-government, and something like that may cause them to unite to fight against the police state.

        It’s so hard to say and I really hope we never find out.

        • AdLib says:

          The Right was counter-protesting but they didn’t want change, they just wanted to fight off those protesting for change.

          So really, the Right was not protesting for anything to change, just the Left.

          In the current day, it would be Left and Right. They could come together on the one issue of taking back democracy from the wealthy and corporations, I would hope they could but blind rage and fighting against their own interests seem too often the choice for the RW.

    • SueInCa says:

      BTW Javaz, I think Michael Moore is totally correct. 700billion did not even begin to cover the losses in the mortgage market and those properties are not being sold unless it is too investors who are buying up huge chunks of properties in our cities. It is another facet of the middle class getting screwed. The Fed is resisting an audit for a very good reason. Those trillions they are holding are not backed by anything other than paper and the Chinese. At one point in the derivatives scheme there was upwards of 595 trillion floating around in the market, not billion, trillion, according to Frontline.

      • AdLib says:

        You would think that Obama knows this and the banks and Wall Street were probably not shy about saying, “Pay us what we want or we let the whole dam burst, hundreds of trillions, the country will be destroyed.”

        I do think that Obama should have been far more innovative when he first came into office about solving the economic crisis.

        He could have bailed out banks by giving them bailouts that were linked to permanent deductions in all Americans mortgage rates and balances, simultaneously giving them money to stabilize themselves and getting people out from under crushing mortgage debt. Once home prices rose enough, the money could be returned by the banks, they would shoulder the expense appropriately as punishment for causing this crisis. They would have likely earned back as much as they paid back by having the use of that money for years as well.

        And, Obama could have required the banks to break up just as ATT was broken up, into smaller entities in different regions.

        But…if they were holding this Doomsday Bomb of trillions of hidden debt over his head, how much choice would he have?

        It would have been like an economic Cuban Missle Crisis, he could have stood firm and hoped the banks wouldn’t pull the trigger, who knows?

        This is my second hypothetical scenario in this thread, since we will never know what really goes on in our government anymore, all we can do is guess.

        • Hopeington says:

          Just popped in to say that last sentence really summed it up!!!
          I’ve got more work today and am having a hard time leaving. I truly enjoy everyone’s input, if you miss a few days it takes hours to “catch up”, but always enjoyable…..
          have a good one!!

        • SueInCa says:

          You are right and I do believe that not only are they holding an “ace in the hole” so to speak, but Obama by himself is probably not going to be able to stop anything. If they are holding these losses, they are breaking every rule in the book by not writing losses off at 180 days. I do believe they are writing off losses slowly but it will not be enough to stem the load balance and another failure, perhaps permanent this time, is in the wings.
          You can only sell off so much property to private investors………..this is a culmination of 30+ years of unsustainable debt pile up. Remember the Jimmy Carter “Mailaise” speech?

          • AdLib says:

            Thanks for posting this amazing speech. Maher played it on his show last night because he was talking to Michael Moore and it’s in his film “Capitalism”.

            It is really stunning that a president could have such confidence and commitment to what’s right that he would make a speech like this.

            At the same time, and as Moore’s film illustrates, Americans responded by looking for a Reagan who would instead tell them they could have it all.

            As Kes said, Carter remains enormously underrated.

            Had his policies been enforced, with two terms in office and no Reagan, we would likely be energy independent by now and would likely have had more corporate restrictions in place that might have prevented the plutocracy we now live in.

            • escribacat says:

              I am reminded every day of what a great president Carter was. I bought a house built in 1958. In the seventies, during Carter’s presidency, he offered tax breaks for people to put solar panels on their houses. The old folks who lived here before me took advantage of that. My house has one of those 35 year old solar units in it — it makes some weird noises but I have solar heated hot water and an extra solar-powered heater in the kitchen.

            • Khirad says:

              Underrated, and purposefully toppled by a foreign government.

            • escribacat says:

              Khirad — that was always my understanding, that Reagan made a deal with the people who took the hostages. Weren’t they released for his inauguration? I’ve also heard rumors that Ahmadinejad was one of the hostage-takers. Do you have any thoughts on that?

            • Khirad says:

              Yes, Cher, Operation Eagle Claw was a disaster, just as Cy Vance said it would be. It’s too lengthy to get into here, but deals had been made and then Khomeini decided to keep the hostages to consolidate his own control, and then, to avenge the ’53 coup and our admittance of the Shah for cancer treatment. And yes, of course there is testimony from the Iranian side that Reagan was in deals with them to keep hostages, similar to the way Chirac undermined Mitterrand in Hezbollah hostage negotiations. Reagan couldn’t have engineered the sandstorm the helicopters encountered though. That mission was doomed for so many other mundane reasons. Granted, I’d need to look at the polls, it wasn’t the only issue, but I don’t think it’s going too far to suggest it was a key factor in sinking his reelection beyond salvage. In any case, from the perspective of Khomeini -- it was his expressed purpose to topple an American president. As he said to us -- “the US can’t do a damn thing” -- and he was right.

            • Chernynkaya says:

              You give Iran too much credit I think, Khirad. They certainly played a role-- but Reagan was the one who used Iran. And maybe Reagan had the help of our military? Remember that disastrous rescue attempt?

            • SueInCa says:

              Yeah, I mentioned Reagan below in a different way. I loved the cowboy coming in riding a horse, the only thing missing was the chimp in the saddle.

          • kesmarn says:

            Sue, that Carter speech was a brilliant, brilliant speech. He was possibly the most underestimated President in U.S. history. Thanks for reminding us of his foresight.

            • SueInCa says:

              Not a problem. I have had it bookmarked for a long time but was reminded of it last night. Bill Maher showed the clip when talking with Michael Moore so I thought I would share it today. It was funny he showed it then showed a cowboy riding in to town. Oh no this will not do, we need a new sheriff in town…………….RayGunZap the man who stars with Chimps

      • javaz says:

        Hey Sue!

        Have you seen this article from alternet about the Oath Keepers?

        His belief that that day is imminent has led Pray to a group called Oath Keepers [1], one of the fastest-growing “patriot” organizations on the right. Founded last April by Yale-educated lawyer and ex-Ron Paul aide Stewart Rhodes, the group has established itself as a hub in the sprawling anti-Obama movement that includes Tea Partiers, Birthers, and 912ers. Glenn Beck, Lou Dobbs, and Pat Buchanan have all sung its praises, and in December, a grassroots summit [2] it helped organize drew such prominent guests as representatives Phil Gingrey [3] and Paul Broun [4], both Georgia Republicans.

        There are scores of patriot groups, but what makes Oath Keepers unique is that its core membership consists of men and women in uniform, including soldiers, police, and veterans. At regular ceremonies in every state, members reaffirm their official oaths of service, pledging to protect the Constitution

        • SueInCa says:

          Oh jebus Javaz, you sure know how to get my dander up. No, I had not read about them except I have heard the name here and there………… but now they are on my list as well.

          • bitohistory says:

            nellie left a link the other day that led to along story in both Mother Jones and the NY Times on this group. Pretty scary group and they are armed.

            • javaz says:

              They consist of trained military people, if it’s true.

              Hiya B’ito!

              Think we’ll get that rain, and possible thunderstorms with possible hail tomorrow?

              I’m hoping!

            • bitohistory says:

              Hey, j’avaz, Yes AZ can always use rain but it is hard on both my bones and my solar clothes dryer. Some of “rivers” are still flowing in Tucson from the last rain and snow melt. Some of the roads by the shack are still closed.

          • javaz says:

            It’s a fairly long article, and I’m only on the third page, but it’s chilling if it’s true.

            • SueInCa says:

              Ok Ok Ok, Javaz, you got me. I am bookmarking it right now and will read sooner than I planned to LOl. You know I am just kidding with ya.

    • SueInCa says:

      Good thing I wasn’t there last night Javaz. Last time I was busted for MaryJane was in high school and I promised my mom I would not puff or pipe it again. Imagine her shock that I did not keep my promise.

    • kesmarn says:

      Good morning, j’avaz…or rather afternoon, now (12:20 here).

      I can’t imagine what you’re referring to at the end of your post! That room was in perfect order when we all left it. Someone must have sneaked in there after Vox Pop shut down and had a party. I can’t think of any other explanation. :roll:

      As for the dearth of intelligent candidates for office that you mentioned, I wonder if part of the problem is that every candidate’s background is so closely scrutinized that qualified people are unwilling to run that gauntlet. If you have sought treatment for depression or addiction, if you have ever been unfaithful, if you have relatives who are an embarrassment, if you did something stupid in college…or--even if your spouse had any of those problems--it will all be dragged out in public. Who wants to deal with all that? And a lot of what is evaluated has nothing to do with how well the candidate would function on the job.

      When you throw in the aggravation that the children of the candidate have to cope with, it discourages a lot of people. Don’t you think?

  14. PatsyT says:

    Gilly has been removed Hmmm
    this is it with Music

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