Most progressives and pro-choice Democrats properly hate the Stupak (D-MI) anti-choice amendment in the House healthcare bill because it legislates beyond the Hyde amendment which bans direct payments from government for abortions. If I was voting this weekend I still would have voted for the bill that hit the floor of the House. However the final healthcare bill must not limit woman from using their own money to buy into a private healthcare plan that covers abortion care, even if it is subsidized.

It has been reported that 40 Democrats will not voted for the final House healthcare bill with the Stupak amendment intact and 40 will not vote for it without the amendment. The Democratic Party has become the big tent party over the last couple of decades. There is only one moderate Republican in the House but there are surely dozens of conservative Democrats. Is the abortion issue in the healthcare bill the flash point for a Democratic Civil War?

In an interview with John Tapper the president chimed in with his position on the anti-choice language in the House healthcare bill. It sounds like he wants to end this Democratic skirmish before it escalates.

Obama Health Care - 600 x 450“TAPPER: Here’s a question a lot of Senate Democrats want to know. You said, when you gave your joint address to Congress, that under our plan, no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions. This amendment passed Saturday night which not only prohibits abortion coverage in the public option, but also prohibits women who receive subsidies from taking out plans that — that provide abortion coverage. Does that meet the promise that you set out or does it over reach, does it go too far?

OBAMA: You know, I laid out a very simple principle, which is this is a health care bill, not an abortion bill. And we’re not looking to change what is the principle that has been in place for a very long time, which is federal dollars are not used to subsidize abortions. And I want to make sure that the provision that emerges meets that test — that we are not in some way sneaking in funding for abortions, but, on the other hand, that we’re not restricting women’s insurance choices, because one of the pledges I made in that same speech was to say that if you’re happy and satisfied with the insurance that you have, that it’s not going to change. So, you know, this is going to be a complex set of negotiations. I’m confident that we can actually arrive at this place where neither side feels that it’s being betrayed. But it’s going to take some time.

TAPPER: Do you think that amendment is status quo or does it lean a little bit in one direction or the other?

OBAMA: I think that there are strong feelings on both sides. And what that tells me is that there needs to be some more work before we get to the point where we’re not changing the status quo. And that’s the goal. The goal here is to make sure that people who have health insurance have greater stability and security, people who don’t have health insurance get the ability to buy it affordably and that we’re driving down costs.

And, you know, I think everybody understands that there’s going to be work to be done on the Senate side. It’s not going to match up perfectly with the House side. But obviously, it was a historic night for the House. We’ve never been this far. And I’m very confident that my colleagues in the Senate are going to say to themselves that we’ve got to get this done.”

The way the Stupak amendment was added to the House bill was political extortion.  There needs to be a better way to comply with the Hyde amendment that is current law and not hinder a woman’s right to have full reproductive healthcare.

UPDATE: The following polls have been added at the suggestion of nicole473:

[poll id=”13″]
[poll id=”16″]
[poll id=”15″]

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choicelady
Member

I am totally pro=choice but REFUSE to let the Stupak amendment be the death of health care reform. Why? Because we can fix a lousy amendment but cannot get another solid bill that covers 98 % of Ameircans. It may not come to this – he is losing ground especially now that it is revealed he lives at C Street with The Family so his motives are far less than pure. WORK hard to get Congress in both houses to adopt the Capps Amendment and let conservative Dems know that they cannot take us for granted.

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Kalima
Admin

Good morning everyone! Just found this article about Gordon Brown on The Guardian U.K. and although nothing like the criticism directed at your President on a daily basis, it still reads quite familiar about the attacks from the media on heads of state.

The Sun newspaper mentioned in the article is a trashy rag of a paper, a tabloid which screams sensationalism with it’s headlines rather like your faux news which is not at all surprising because it is owned by a subsidiary company belonging to Rupert Murdoch. Well there you go, trashing on both sides of the Atlantic, way to go Rupe.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/nov/11/brown-afghanistan-letter-jacqui-janes

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BigDogMom
Member
BigDogMom

Morning Kalima, Rupart has brought his version of reporting the ‘news’, Sun style, to the USA…it is unfortunate that we live at a time, the dumbing down of America, when people actually believe this crap that he puts out.

The days of independent thinking and journalistic integrety for a large part of our society here in America are gone..we want ‘Fast Food’ news now to go with our super sized ‘Happy Meals’.

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AdLib
Admin

At the same time, where would we be if MSM news was as it was today…and there was no internet?

The Founders saw The Press as the safety net for democracy, the unofficial fourth branch of government. With The Press now taken over for the most part by agenda driven corporations, we are so supremely lucky that we have the internet to research and seek out truth.

And to help us come together over, discuss and explore truths, issues and solutions.

American Democracy, beaten down as much as it is, dodged a fatal bullet thanks to the internet.

Otherwise, we’d be observing President Palin, having stepped in for the ailing McCain, sending this nation into a final tailspin.

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BigDogMom
Member
BigDogMom

Morning AdLib, Oh please, the thought of Palin as President sends shivers down my spine, we would be bombing Switzerland right now if she were in office.

Your right, thank God we have the internet which was used in an instrumental and constructive way to wake us, well most of us, up from the tyrrany of GWB and Chainey and to elect Obama.

But I still say, there is a large number of citizens that buy into this cah, cah that they present as ‘news’. My only hope is that websites such as this and others become more mainstream in our society so that it drowns out the other noise called ‘cable news’.

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AdLib
Admin

Morning BDM!

Palin would be bombing Switzerland because she would’ve heard they had lots of army knives there and that could be a threat to our national security…to have knives specifically designed to kill armies.

Absolutely, there are many who blindly accept that the “news” they get from the MSM is unadulterated, impartial and accurate, not propaganda or agenda driven BS.

However, the shift continues for those seeking the truth about what’s going on. More and more are relying on the web.

The problem there is the invasion of corporations and political groups into the MSM on the web.

That’s my big concern about sites like Huffington Post, they have become the internet equivalent of CNN, Fox News, etc. Owned by corporate (hedge fund) interests, pumping out propaganda and unverifiable, agenda-driven stories…and the folks who left the MSM on tv for the internet to get the truth are now being played for rubes by some of their internet alternatives.

Thank goodness for DailyKos, ThinkProgress, MoveOn.org and a number of other trustworthy sites…even those named after astronomical bodies. Heh!

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BigDogMom
Member
BigDogMom

I wonder if Palin can see Switzerland also, from her back porch! Love the reference to Army Knives, your begining to think like her, scary!

As far as I’m concerned, Huff Poop is just one big social network, news is incidental now on that site. Have not been there for two days, and I noticed that many more that want real news and info are going elsewhere.

I wonder how long this trend in MSM for sensationalized faux news will last, how long will it be profitable for them? It’s all about the bottom line, isn’t it…sad.

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AdLib
Admin

Please note and vote in the polls that have just been added at the bottom of the article.

Cheers!

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nicole473
Member

Thanks, Adlib, for posting the poll!!

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Kalima
Admin

Mokay, I’ll sit this one out and count the raindrops. 🙂

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Corgi Lover
Guest

KQ: Is that like that backwoods joke about the hillbilly youth who came running home to his father and said “Pa, Pa, I’m going to marry Betty Jean, and guess what, she’s a VIRGIN” To which the wise older hillbilly said, “No, son, if she’s not good enough for her own family, she’s not good enough for ours”.

Sorry Kalima.

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Kalima
Admin

I’m no prude FM, you have read me wrong. Funny joke btw. LOL!

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Corgi Lover
Guest

I didn’t think you were. I said that with a silent wink. I knew you were just playing with adlib’s mind!

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Kalima
Admin

Sorry, blind as a bat, missed the silent wink.

LOL if I was playing with AdLib’s mind in ernest, he would tell me off.

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AdLib
Admin

Never! Heh!

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Kalima
Admin

Thank you but I like you too much to ever mess with you. So there!!!

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bito
Member

It’s that time for me. G’nite all.

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Khirad
Member
AdLib
Admin

Night bitohistory!

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Kalima
Admin

Goodnight bitohistory. Rest well.

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Kalima
Admin

O/T but just in Breaking News.

“John Allen Muhammad, the mastermind of the Washington-area sniper attacks in 2002, has been executed, official says.”

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Corgi Lover
Guest

Even in the event of those we know are guilty with absolute proof, and not just the lack of reasonable doubt, I do not feel that publically condoned execution serves any purpose beyond revenge. I personally feel that if you know you are stuck in an 8 x 10 cell the rest of your life you will probably be punished far more than if you are killed. I say this even regarding Charlie Manson, one of the great evil men in later day America. And for those whose convictions were questionable, we can never turn back the clock once they are gone. Revenge is a really bad motive.

Now for the gory part. Executions only serve as a detriment to crime when they are seen. When in the wild west the bad guy was hung in the town square and even little six year old Johnny watched, he walked away with the lesson that what the bad man did was not good, especially with this ending. Unfortunately with today’s society and the glorification of gore, there would be far too many people coming just for the excitement and spectacle. Either way, not good.

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Khirad
Member

Methinks the efficacy was even less so in many societies where it and public humiliation was just as much, if not more, for entertainment than reinforcing cultural norms or punishing crimes.

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Corgi Lover
Guest

Khirad: Now I never said I’d be against a few sets of pillars and stocks outside of the capitol building. I’d happily put a few Republicans in them and then supply the free spoiled tomatoes.

Oh, well, “cruel and unusual” I guess, at least for this century in America.

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nicole473
Member

Well said, Monk!!

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AdLib
Admin

Executions are about the public’s thirst for vengeance, not civilized justice.

The cliche is, “If killing is wrong, the appropriate way to punish someone for being so misguided and hateful as to take the life of another, is to have the government sponsor the killing of the person who committed the sin of killing.”

Well, maybe the cliche doesn’t go exactly like that…so shoot me.

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Corgi Lover
Guest

I once worked with a gentleman whose daughter had been raped and killed by a extreme drug user in the St. Louis area. This man felt the loss of his daughter, but could not bring himself to want to come back to St. Louis and watch the trial for the “pleasure” of it as some of his relatives wanted him to. He realized that in the end the reality was that his loss was permanent, and attending the trial would bring him no “closure”. Instead, he found closure within himself.

He was a far finer individual than I think I could be, and I deeply respect him for that.

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AdLib
Admin

He sounds like a remarkable man.

If it was subjective, if it was someone you knew who was the victim of a violent crime, it is absolutely understandable that any of us, even including anti-death-penalty Adlib, would very possibly want to see the perp killed.

That’s why justice should never be subjective, it should be an objective force that is built upon principle.

If killing is wrong in a society, it is wrong. No matter who does it. That’s not to say the punishment would be the same in all cases, as in self defense, but killing should never be supported by a government that condemns and punishes others for the exact same thing.

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Kalima
Admin

A very humble and wise man. It will never bring a loved on back, the pain stays for the remainder of your life either way.

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Khirad
Member

Well said. Ever have that feeling that brings up quotes in your mind, but you can’t place who said them? I’m feeling that right now, spurred by that comment. Matters not, what you wrote encapsulates them.

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nicole473
Member

Makes me think of spanking. I have never understood the reasoning behind that either.

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escribacat
Member

Spanking is more a function of anger than teaching, isn’t it?

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Khirad
Member

Does more harm than good in my opinion.

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AdLib
Admin

Not if you’re having it done in the right way.

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Kalima
Admin

Spanky Panky, funny. The Brits call it Hanky Panky or a bit of slap and tickle.

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Corgi Lover
Guest

I chose to rise above asking about such things. No talk about spanky Panky! tsk tsk tsk!

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Kalima
Admin

Get your head out of the mud this instance, you naughty boy!!

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Khirad
Member

Well now, that’s consensual!

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nicole473
Member

Yes, I agree. Never spanked mine, and they are fine, upstanding young men. Self esteem intact.

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Khirad
Member

My emotional stance against this is admittedly personal, and I’ll leave it that. 😉

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deygirl
Member

I cannot cheer executions. The only exception being those of George Bush, Dick Cheney, etal.

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AdLib
Admin

We’re so much safer now than if he stayed in prison his whole life, aren’t we?

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Khirad
Member

No kidding. Would be an interesting thread, but I’m not 100% against the death penalty, more like 98-99%. I would reserve it for mass-murdering dictators and such.

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escribacat
Member
Kalima
Admin

Exactly! We can or you can all leave your front doors unlocked at night from now on.

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AdLib
Admin

I’m storing my valuables on the front lawn!

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Kalima
Admin

Don’t be silly, send them to me. 🙂

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AdLib
Admin

I’ve attached my baseball cards and my issue of Justice League #1 to an email I just sent to you.

I sure hope they arrive safely!

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AdLib
Admin

Perfect! My valuables will be safe and sound!

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Kalima
Admin

LOL and exactly what am I supposed to do with the baseball cards, I’m a girl for goodness sake.

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Corgi Lover
Guest

You have valuables? I feel so impoverished!

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AdLib
Admin

Well, this Sizzler coupon is valuable to me.

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deygirl
Member
KevenSeven
Member

What of Babs Boxer’s assertion that there is no way that 60 votes will be collected to amend the Senate bill to include an abortion ban?

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nicole473
Member

KQuark,

Can you possibly add a poll to your post? I am interested in learning a few things about those of us debating this issue, if that doesn’t sound too weird. 😆

Let me know, and I’ll explain what I have in mind.

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HITO
Member
HITO

OT, sorry kids, just for a sec.

Dey, Assume you saw the Queens forward from Rob.

I am being unjustly accused of something I had nothing to do with.

Dr. Rob said “you are both being watched going forward”.

Something else happened after 11:43 today. Wasn’t me. Haven’t been on hp all day.

This I swear.

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nicole473
Member

Yeah, that’s right, go ahead and drive us all freaking crazy wondering what the hell you’re talking about, HITO!! 😉

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HITO
Member
HITO

I’m sorry. I have been having some problems with LadyNaga at hp. The other evening she posted my password in a reply. I had suspicions that she may be staff at HP, to be able to have that info and emailed Dr. Rob, the moderator about my concern.

As of 11:43 today, Naga and I were on warning, so said the email I received.

Apparently subsequently Naga was put on suspension.

I had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with that.

Moving on. Once again. Sorry for the interruption folks.

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Khirad
Member

How did she become privy to such info??? This completely changes my picture of her. Seems uncharacteristic to me.

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Corgi Lover
Guest

As much as what I just said above, the other detail I missed was interesting.

incoming shorts. Boxers, I think.

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Corgi Lover
Guest

Nicole, remind the children of your private conversation room. This one really needs to be behind closed doors.

I’m not being a bummer (Amerian slang, not British, thank you) but we all need to keep cool on that crazy situation over there.

You know, fxxx them if they can’t take a joke!

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escribacat
Member

I feel bad for all involved — and don’t want to take sides.

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Khirad
Member

I’m still trying to figure out what I missed!

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Corgi Lover
Guest

A wise choice of actions. It’s a personal matter between them. They will both work it out in one way or another.

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nicole473
Member

Okay. HITO and pals, go here

http://huffpostextended.proboards.com/index.cgi

Register, and start a thread in the Private section. No one who isn’t registered will see it.

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HITO
Member
HITO

Thank you. Are all welcome?

And can it be now, just to rid me of this once and for all?

I don’t mind anyone entering who just wants to know at least my side of this equation.

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nicole473
Member

All are welcome. Now is fine. We set it up for occasions such as this.

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deygirl
Member

LIES???? There??? I am SHOCKED!

What a romper room. I was trying to make you smile, btw.

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HITO
Member
HITO

That email from Dr. Rob came at us both, and had plenty of warnings about “behaving”. Think to quote was something like “play nice”. To not do so, offered suspension at best.

Maybe she got mad that I sent an email to Dr. Rob about exposing my password, and vented subsequently.

But the Queen went to sleep today at 11:44 after having changed her password at 8am.

Will get shit about this either way. Truth is of no consequence over there.

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SeeknDestroy
Member
SeeknDestroy

I will never understand, ’till the day I die, why certain people (Republicans, mostly)think they know better than a woman regarding her body. How a group of people can stand there yelling “personal responsibility” yet try to tell women what to do with their bodies, baffles me to end. In my opinion, this is solely for a woman to decide, period, not a political football. Protecting a woman’s right to make her own medical decisions regarding her reproductive system is a no-brainer to me.

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Kalima
Admin

Well said, in a world without white arsed, pasty faced old geezers, this would be the normal way of thinking for most of us, excluding the religious zealots of course, they deserves a planet of their own in my opinion. Pluto, the harsh red landscape of Venus maybe, wait a sec, Venus is my rising star, so no, not there.
A Planet producing a lot of foul smelling gas would be perfect.

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nicole473
Member

We think alike, Kalima. 😆

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SeeknDestroy
Member
SeeknDestroy

Thanks, Kalima.
A planet of foul smelling gas it shall be.
I hope all is good with you.

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Kalima
Admin

It will be by next Tuesday I hope, thanks, and yourself?

Alrighty then, a Planet of foul smelling gasses will indoctrinate them for the place they will journey to in the end.

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SeeknDestroy
Member
SeeknDestroy

I’m excellent, thanks.

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Kalima
Admin

Good to hear.

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HITO
Member
HITO

Wow, thanks seek. Can I quote that going forward?

It would be swell to cite one man’s excellent thought.

My body, my choice. Sweet.

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SeeknDestroy
Member
SeeknDestroy

Hey HITO!
My ham handed attempt to state something I believe to be obvious, and just.

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deygirl
Member

And you KNOW no-brainers.

Hey Seek! How’s my favorite dizzy blonde?

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SeeknDestroy
Member
SeeknDestroy

Hey DG!
What was the question?
~snark~

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bito
Member

Waaaaay off topic. Has any one made a sex tape, sent it to some one then years later said “that was a mistake? Just curious.

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Kalima
Admin

LOL! What happened in London or Tokyo, stays in London or Tokyo.

Are you having problems? 🙂

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HITO
Member
HITO

Again, LMFAOROFF (rolling on the fucking floor)

Kalima and FM, too funny.

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Kalima
Admin

😆 Your laughter is infectious!

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deygirl
Member

Hey HITO! I found you!

Checked your e?

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HITO
Member
HITO

Am right now beautiful. Sorry, have to sew Max’s dress pants for the funeral tomorrow.

Can one blog and sew at the same time?

This One Will…don’t run away now…

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Corgi Lover
Guest

No, brother Bito, I haven’t. Is this a confession or just an interesting conjecture? If I’d done it in the first place, I’d ‘stand’ with it in the future.

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bito
Member

Ms. Jesus/freak/model…. Said that, whats her name Carrie Prejean

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Corgi Lover
Guest

Film at 11? I wonder if she’s going to continue pushing her lawsuit against the Miss Cali pageant (sorry, I’ve not been reading about her, boycotting HP costs me in knowing all the deep news out there)

Did she praise Jesus in this flick? Was there a halo over her head? Were her hooters the standout of the scenes? Inquiring minds want to know.

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HITO
Member
HITO

The halo was a paintbox graphic added after they deleted the horns.

Her hooters are always stand out and above…at a cost of $8K one should expect nothing less.

hee hee…stand out, lol.

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Corgi Lover
Guest

Sounds like that lawsuit was ‘nipped’ in the ‘bud’ with this revelation.

Now I can’t put my finger on it, but I’m willing to bet she transfers from that Christian College in San Diego next semester. Even they won’t cut her any slack now.

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HITO
Member
HITO

hmmm…..maybe CW Post, Stoney Brook,…a “heady” school experience?

Not a true christian at either to be seen for miles.

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bito
Member

I was watching KO while eating some dinner, he was talking about it. The tape came out at the trial against Miss Cal. Pageant. It was suddenly dropped! From what I get it was a tape of her alone “doing SOMETHING?”
😉

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Kalima
Admin

Knitting isn’t a sin.

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Kalima
Admin

Oh, silly goose, could be dangerous, she might accidently stab at one of her implants, messy.

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bito
Member

She may have been using those “jumbo needles”:-)

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deygirl
Member

Pop! Pop!

anyone here seen Streakofrintintin anywhere?

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Corgi Lover
Guest

Evening deygirl. How’s it going?

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Corgi Lover
Guest

Deygirl: I’m doing alright other than I sent an e-mail a while ago and forgot the subject line. Of course, you always realize this right after you’ve pressed the send button. AHhhh!

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deygirl
Member

So far so good. You?

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HITO
Member
HITO

Hey Bito…her breasts are as fake as her ideology.

If they have to take them out due to silicone infections, do you think she’ll change spiritually as well thereafter?

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bito
Member
HITO
Member
HITO

I’ll take that gleeful look as a “hell no, she’s an ignoramous”.

LOL.

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Obama20082012
Member

Off topic, I am not getting emails of new posts, am I the only one suffering this fate?

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nicole473
Member

Hey, Grab……you can do the RSS thing to make it easy. 😆

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Obama20082012
Member

What is RSS?

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Corgi Lover
Guest

Grabamop: Look at the Wiki enty for some basics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSS_(protocol) and then over to the right side here under META there is access to the feeds. Beyond that, I can’t give you a lot, it hasn’t sparked my interest yet. But then again, I only use a cell phone for telephone calls, too….

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Kalima
Admin

I wasn’t even aware that they were being sent. Emails when new comments are added to an article that you have written yes, but a heads up on new posts,umm, I’ll have to be more alert in the future and stop my daydreaming of a better world for all or take more notice of AdLib’s emails to me.

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Corgi Lover
Guest

Grabamop. It’s probably not just you, I haven’t either, but adlib has been a little bit busy trying to improve performance issues the last couple of days. I have faith that they will start up again.

EDIT: Kalima is right. It was only on new articles. I misread ‘posts’ for ‘articles’. Language is so tricky.

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javaz
Member

Before I leave for the evening, I would like to say that this is the first time that I’ve ever participated in a debate about abortion without hearing or reading the normal rhetoric against women or reading righteous tirades condemning women’s morals.
Once again, I applaud Planet POV for giving us all the opportunity to debate and/or discuss issues in a calm fashion with respect.

Good night everyone!

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nicole473
Member

Good night, javaz.

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Kalima
Admin

Goodnight javaz, rest well.

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HITO
Member
HITO

Agreed Javaz, agreed. Be well my friend and thanks for the links again.

See you tomorrow.

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HITO
Member
HITO

Loving that edit button Adlib. Just saying.

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javaz
Member

http://www.politico.com/arena/

Reps. Diana DeGette (D-Colo.) and Jan Schakowsy (D-Ill.):

“This is offensive to women — the notion is an insult, it is unworkable and it is discriminatory. Why should a woman purchase separate insurance in advance because she might have an unplanned pregnancy or a pregnancy that goes terribly wrong

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HITO
Member
HITO

Reproductive rights will extend to all humans bodies once men are able to conceive, carry the fetus, and deal with the baby blues thereafter.

Stupak needs to go, and quickly.

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