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Comments Posted By nellie

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Hi, I’m Rob-S, and I’m a Moderatorholic

The photo is hilarious. That’s the way I’ll be thinking of HP from now on!

» Posted By nellie On November 23, 2009 @ 9:38 am

Destroying Religion: The Essential Task at Hand?

Not to get too obtuse — but proving that something DOESN’T prove something is not proof of what it does not prove.

That actually is what I mean to say. 🙂

When someone can tell me why there is anything at all, I might be persuaded to a new dogma.

» Posted By nellie On November 24, 2009 @ 11:04 am

To be frank, I find you more intellectually honest and consistent than Hitchens

You can be confrontational, you know that as well as anyone. You are uncompromising in the way you express yourself. But Hitchens — sometimes the guy seems to say whatever gets him over in the situation. He reminds me of William Buckley — smart enough to appear to be smarter than he actually is.

» Posted By nellie On November 24, 2009 @ 11:00 am

As you would say — I am not persuaded. And here is why.

No one can explain to me why there is anything at all. Atheists can’t, scientists can’t, theists can’t… And that is where my mind tends to go in these matters. I am agnostic for that reason. I’m not persuaded by any of it. The only person I’ve ever heard address that question is Denys Turner. Scientists have their theories, but one can always ask — but what happened before that?

So I think we cling to whatever notion keeps us sane in this regard. And my approach is to believe nothing — to question everything — because none of it answers the basic question for me.

» Posted By nellie On November 24, 2009 @ 10:42 am

That is my take on him as well. If I were going to recommend a defender of atheism I would choose a calmer, less angry advocate. Like Miller.

» Posted By nellie On November 24, 2009 @ 10:24 am

Well, I’m glad. 🙂

To tell the truth, I don’t expect you to be persuaded. Atheists can be as dogmatic about their belief system as the most devout religious practitioner. They even proselytize. That’s why I tend to view it the way I do.

» Posted By nellie On November 24, 2009 @ 10:21 am

I think, in this discussion, we should be careful to avoid broad generalizations, as well. Religious people have as broad a spectrum of temperament as human beings in general. I would feel very uncomfortable making the assumption that all religious people are fundamentalist and inflexible — or that they are certain.

» Posted By nellie On November 24, 2009 @ 10:15 am

Athiests do indeed blow up buildings and kill people. Of course you can get so specific in any example that you wouldn’t find an analogy. That makes all comparison rather useless.

I would also add atheists have, in history, killed people for their religious beliefs — indeed for HAVING religious beliefs.

» Posted By nellie On November 24, 2009 @ 10:07 am

Your corollary is not parallel. What you would have to ask is to name a heinous act committed in the name of religion that would NOT be committed by someone who was an atheist. I think you’d be hard pressed to come up with an answer for that one, as well.

» Posted By nellie On November 23, 2009 @ 8:58 am

Excellent insight. An attempt to explain the world around us.

» Posted By nellie On November 23, 2009 @ 8:02 am

I usually resist doing this, but in this case:

Websters

1 a the state of a religious b (1) the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

2 a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

3 archaic scrupulous conformity conscientiousness

4 a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

If you are arguing Theism, that

» Posted By nellie On November 23, 2009 @ 7:55 am

I recommend a BBC series called The Atheism Tapes. Some very interesting conversations with atheists from different fields by interviewer Jonathan Miller. Miller doesn’t hold up too well against the one religious guest he interviews — Denys Turner.

More about the series here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/atheism-tapes.shtml

» Posted By nellie On November 23, 2009 @ 6:00 am

I agree with this absolutely. We have inventions and complex legal systems now. But are we different creatures from our great great ancestors…. ? Probably not so different.

» Posted By nellie On November 22, 2009 @ 6:27 pm

Yes. I agree.

» Posted By nellie On November 22, 2009 @ 6:14 pm

I guess I’m kinda with choicelady on this one. Religion can be a powerful force for good, and has been in our history. And continues to be today.

Destructive practices are both the fault of the leader AND the follower. People need to be mindful of they believe, and be strong enough to resist when they are led astray.

Human beings sure are complicated!

» Posted By nellie On November 22, 2009 @ 6:11 pm

Thank you so much for these posts. I learn so much on this site. The people here have such diverse experiences, and so much knowledge.

» Posted By nellie On November 22, 2009 @ 5:44 pm

I find your idea of modernizing our religions fascinating. I have to wonder, though, whether they go through this evolutionary process already. Especially when you consider developments such as some of the New Age religions, the unitarian church, or the more modern Buddhist movements.

» Posted By nellie On November 22, 2009 @ 5:39 pm

If you look into some of the “ancient” native believe systems, you may find that many are founded on conserving and protecting the natural world. Our ideas are not all that new. We have been human beings for a long time.

» Posted By nellie On November 22, 2009 @ 5:35 pm

Thanks, KQ.

I definitely believe in religious freedom, or spiritual freedom. And I believe these faith systems should be wholly separate from government. But I think it would be very difficult to prevent religion from becoming organized.

What I object to is money in religion and religion in politics. It’s hard to keep money out of religion, but it’s a corrupting factor, just like in government. And it’s very dangerous for religion to be an organizing factor in a political system. At least when social groups become large and diverse.

I like the law. I like secular, rational law as the foundation for governments, large and small. But I think religion will always have an important place in people’s lives. Because we are human.

» Posted By nellie On November 22, 2009 @ 5:33 pm

And I think atheism is its own brand of religion.

» Posted By nellie On November 22, 2009 @ 1:47 pm

I agree with you wholeheartedly. So much destructive human behavior is acting out the lizard brain or chemical imbalances that make people turn their backs on reality. Or desperation. And too often there are people ready to take advantage of these all too human flaws.

» Posted By nellie On November 22, 2009 @ 8:01 am

I really like your post. It’s thought provoking and even inspirational. Now I’m going to disagree with it!

Religion is one of those human constructs, like language, that simply will arise again to fill the void. I can’t think of a culture on this planet that doesn’t have religions or religious affiliations. It’s who we are as a species. We can’t do anything about that until we reprogram our DNA. And I’m not sure we want to do anything about it.

I think religion gives us sanity. It even gives the athiest sanity. If we thought about reality, really thought about why there is anything at all, we would be paralyzed by the enormity of the question. Religion allows people to go through their lives without being haunted by that question. Even atheists don’t face it. They spend most of their time arguing against the existence of God, not explaining why we are.

Scientist can posit the creation of the universe, but creation from what? What is nothing? What is timelessness? WHY is it? Why are WE?

And that is religion.

Bad religion is like bad government. There is shared responsibility with the people who follow and the people who lead. And the solution is not to remove government altogether — because it is a human construct, like language. The solution is to try to replace bad government with good government. I think religion can be viewed the same way.

As for looking at the earth as God, I believe your idea is shared by many native peoples around the world, and by Thomas Jefferson. I think it’s a good idea, too.

» Posted By nellie On November 22, 2009 @ 7:40 am

Our 10,000th Comment!

One more suggestion:

What about a PPOV book club/book review/book discussion feature. I’m listening to Charles Gasparino discuss his new book — The Sellout: How Three Decades of Wall Street Greed and Government Mismanagement Destroyed the Global Financial System — on the Thom Hartmann Show, and it sounds interesting, even though I disagree with a lot of what he says.

I was thinking a lot of us here might be interested in reading some of the same books.

» Posted By nellie On November 24, 2009 @ 9:30 am

That’s how all lottery winners are chosen. When you’re the 10,000th customer at the new store — it’s all fate.

{{{balloons still falling}}}

😉

» Posted By nellie On November 22, 2009 @ 12:54 pm

Congrats on being our 10,000 comment!

{{{balloons falling with confetti}}}

» Posted By nellie On November 22, 2009 @ 12:48 pm

Wow, that is service, for sure!

I love that idea, especially for petitions that we can circulate to other formats (like facebook).

Letters to the editor might be more effective — and some papers will only accept and publish — if signed by one person willing to give a name, address, and contact info. I would be more than willing to send letters to the L.A. Times or the Daily News knowing they had been worked on and vetted here.

I”m glad you like the other suggestions.

» Posted By nellie On November 22, 2009 @ 11:36 am

Thanks for the news, AdLib. And a big thank you for PPOV. There was absolutely nowhere else to be yesterday as the Senate debate unfolded. This place was sane, civil, informative, and entertaining. It made sitting through hours and hours of GOP talking points bearable. And made the successful vote that much more rewarding.

60 votes!!

As for features, the main one I might like is a Letter to the Editor session — where we jointly compose a letter we can send to local newspapers on a particular topic. Then, anyone who wants to mail it to their local paper can do that. Organizations are always emailing me to write letters to the editor, but it’s such a major task. Maybe if we work on one together, it might be fun.

We could also do email campaigns, letter writing to congress — kind of a spread the word feature.

Rachel Maddow used to do a feature on her radio show about news that was buried. It might be fun for people to post to the same thread stories they’ve come across during the week that didn’t get the exposure they deserved.

I love Stephen Colbert’s “Better know a district” feature. Could we do that with members here and their districts — what’s their representation like, who’s their congressperson, who’s the senator, any inside stories?

Those are just my random thoughts.

P.S. I love the Morning Thread — I wish I could wake up early enough to join in.

» Posted By nellie On November 22, 2009 @ 7:11 am

Senate debates Health Care Bill

I’m going to say good night as well. I have empty pages staring at me that must be filled with writing, or I’m in the dog house w my two puppies!

Today was another good day on the planet. Thanks everyone. Peace and pleasant dreams, all. And Kalima — have a great rest of the day.

» Posted By nellie On November 21, 2009 @ 8:19 pm

Nite, bito. See you here soon.

» Posted By nellie On November 21, 2009 @ 8:12 pm

Nite — today was fun. Thanks for all the good info.

» Posted By nellie On November 21, 2009 @ 8:08 pm