religion_wOFzE_17334

Any good debate begins with a provocation, and here’s mine. It is a matter of utmost urgency that we destroy all of the current religions. Break them down, once and for all. Beat them until they are as insignificant as the ancient Norse gods are today.

Now bear with me here, because I’m not about to retread the ground already so well trodden by Hitchens et al. No, I want to consider the issue from a different perspective.

Perhaps, I should pause here to point out that I am not anti-spiritual. I am not an ardent rationalist. My experiences of transcendence (a sheer awe at the unknown and a feeling that I am part of something much larger than myself but can never fully comprehend) and my encounters with the sublime (in nature and art for example), sometimes leave me breathless – unable to fathom how, HOW this is all possible (if indeed it is). But anyway, I digress.

So what about religion? Well, my starting point is this. They have no metaphysical truth. They are clearly attempts by humans to make sense of the world around them, to cope with the dreadful knowledge that we all must die, and to try to establish a social system whereby we act according to some agreed upon norms and codes of behaviour. If you don’t agree with me then you might want to consider stopping here because this is my unshakable premise.

For many years these religions have served a purpose. For some it has been a source of comfort and created a bond that has strengthened community and clarified social obligations. For others it has been a source of brute political force, the life-blood of kings and tyrants. For others still, it has been a vestibule to the numinous and the mystical. But the religions have had their moment. It is now time they were destroyed.

All the major religions were created in a different world. Theirs was an infinite world; a world that bears no resemblance to the finite blue sphere upon which we all etch out our lives today. This is the problem. The gods, the codes of conduct, the moral precepts of the religions represent those times, not ours. We need new codes of conduct, we need new moral precepts and yes, we need a new god.

One of the primary fears expounded by religious apologists is that if we break down the religions what will we be left with? A world of pure rationalism? A world devoid of meaning and morality? I argue no. Spirituality, the power from which all religion draws its strength, is innate in us. We cannot help but feel it (some more than others). Unfortunately the religions have monopolised this feeling. They have captured it and distorted it so that we too often now think through prisms from the ancient world. Now is time to break down the religions so that our spirituality can be released. So it can fly free and attach itself to a new world. What will this bring?

I cannot say, but I can introduce you to my God. Try, if you will, to imagine a world in which this god reigns supreme. My God is a little blue planet, one among an incomprehensible number of other planets. Slowly yet inexorably it makes its journey around a sun – also just one among an incomprehensible number of others. This is a god I can see, I can feel, I can smell, I can touch, I can taste. The numinous radiates from its every surface, from the peaks of its mountains to the depths of its oceans. On it I find all that I need for life. It is the creator, the nurturer and the destroyer. It gives us birth and it WILL give us death. But in the intervening period, we can come to learn that we are part of something much larger than ourselves. We are part of a community of life, a sub-community of humans. But most of all we are part of our God.

What would the world be like if this was our god?

Any thoughts are welcomed.

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Beachchick
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Beachchick

I steer clear of the atheist v theist debates. Theism can’t be argued rationally. The atheist will win every time.

With that said, strong atheists can be as dogmatic and hostile as fundamentalists. Frankly, I understand the hostility; fundamentalists have turned me off all religion, but I think it is important to remember that not every theist is a cruel bigoted freak.

KQµårk 死神
Member

I think of it the same way and call it the arrogance of certainty. Anyone who is certain they are “right” in their beliefs scares me to death because they are the ones who justify bad acts based on their self righteous attitudes.

KevenSeven
Member

Wow, has this thread still got any life?

I object to people telling me that they know the mind of God. As if that were possible. Oh, excuse me, I’m a humble Christian on a mission from God, oh, and I’m here to tell you how to run your life.

I like Dawkin’s attitude: Science can tell us what the world is. And we can use philosophy to discuss how we conduct our lives. Not really terribly complex.

Khirad
Member

Summed it up the most succinctly I’ve seen it done in a while.

Me, I’m usually tempted to drone on. But, it can suffice to be left at that.

Mogamboguru
Member

REM – Losing my religion:

KQµårk 死神
Member

One of my favorites of all time.

Corgi Lover
Guest
Khirad
Member

I so have that on my computer now.

Corgi Lover
Guest

OK, You want the truth? We’re all the artificial virtual creations of a self created AI program. Now deal with that one with your Gods and Science and figure out where reality is. I, personally, am an errant piece of code whose sole purpose is to tickle other code into action.

choicelady
Member

Hi Felonious – I imagine you’re right! No matter how much we, even those of us in the faith world, would LOVE to have a Guiding Hand, we are products of evolution, cells, and maybe microchips. The best part though is that all of coalesced into sentient beings that can reach beyond self. That “tickling other codes into action” is consciousness and thus morality. Or, in the case of C Street and their ilk, not.

We have choices, and we have the capacity to think beyond self for the greater good. God is probably that awareness of self and others – the transcendent moment when we connect for something that moves the species along in positive ways.

Reality can be small or huge. That’s also a choice we can make. I live better when it’s huge – when I know I share the code (or microchip or whatever) with others who deserve what I deserve. That Golden Rule thing is simply no more or less than that.

AdLib
Admin

What seems totally bewildering to me is that discussing politics or religion might lead to conflicts.

Now if we were debating “Cats or Dogs, which is better?” I could understand but things as fluffy as politics and religion? Oh well, you learn new things every day.

K7 and Kalima, I think you’ve both made your points with each other. Personalization on disagreements is a debate that has no winners…let’s move on past that.

Thanks!

KevenSeven
Member

Cats.

You got mail.

KevenSeven
Member

I still say: cats.

Actually, if one examines this thread, one finds a lot of people seem to see indictments of organizations (churches) with an attack on their personal beliefs.

I’m a Democrat and a liberal. My party fucks me over on a regular basis. I’m OK with people criticizing my party when my party is wrong on something.

It is attacks on my liberalism that I don’t stand for.

KQµårk 死神
Member

You don’t respect their beliefs which is obvious from your moral certitude. Even science has shown that anything is possible and takes no sides in the supreme being argument.

Nellie was correct. Just because Atheism is the belief in no God does not mean it’s not a dogma unto itself. It’s just the null belief system. I mean some Atheists are organized, have ministers and churches in this country so it’s even an organized religion to spread the word.

It’s like saying Anarchism is not a political philosophy.

Of course an Atheist can do any moral act a religious person could. That’s not a profound statement that a truism most reasonable adults come to on their own. However, Hitchens has proved the opposite of the corollary you put forth before, you can be an Atheist and still rationalize BAD ACTS as well like justifying the Iraq War. Just because he used anti-religion as part of his justification is no reason to think he was rationalizing a bad act based on his belief system.

KevenSeven
Member

Oh, bull.

I don’t respect people’s beliefs?

Where do you get off?

What I don not respect is people telling me that God wants me to do this or not do that.

What I do not respect is the willingness of people who claim religious faith telling me that I have no morals for being an atheist.

I do not respect these people telling me that they have the right to restrict the way I or other free-born Americans live? I will not have people tell me that they know the mind of God and that I should do this or not do that.

How do you feel about all these people of faith denying same sex marriage? Do you “respect” their right to impose their ignorant bigotry on their fellow citizens?

While we are chatting, do you “respect” the wish of the extreme Zionist to create a Greater Israel, at the cost of the local Palestinians? God told them they should do that, after all.

Or do you “respect” the aspirations of Islamic extremists to re-create the Caliphate? I better go visit Spain, before you “respect” it over to the Islamists who want a Caliphate.

C’mon. In for a penny, in for a pound.

Your final paragraph is gibberish. First, Hitchens never suggested for a minute that atheists were incapable of evil. I don’t know from where you get the idea that he said otherwise.

There are morally acceptable arguments to justify our invasion of Iraq. They are just insufficient. Saddam was indeed a threat to the US. There are countless threats to the US. The question is: does the threat rise to the level of the action that we took? I emphatically say no. And Hitchens’ arguments on this are first on my list of my complaints with him. He is not my brother, I will not have you demand that I justify his every utterance.

KQµårk 死神
Member

Classic. I love how you are willing to bend your morals now to justify the war in Iraq. Utter rationalization just to defend your post and Hitchens.

“Saddam was indeed a threat to the US.” LOL ROFL Something that could have come from the mouth of Dick Cheney himself. He was a contained threat and no threat to the US. He had no WMD, was not planning an attack against the US and had control of the militants in his country. Completely different than the Afghan situation for example.

I don’t recall anyone here saying you had no morals or say you can’t believe what you want. Get off the cross.

KevenSeven
Member

“I love how you are willing to bend your morals”

“I don

KevenSeven
Member

This is an interesting debate that just went down in England:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvZz_pxZ2lw&feature=related

It is in five parts. It can be frustrating to find them in the right sequence.

Two Atheist, Stephen Fry (actor) and Christopher Hitchens (polemicist) up against two Catholics. It is amazing how poorly the two Catholics hold up, especially as one of them is a politician of some rank.

Kalima
Admin

The last word kev?

I’m pleased to inform you that it didn’t sting one bit.

KevenSeven
Member

“Why do you need to think it is all about you?”

Kalima.

You are not the only person reading this thread, and I cannot sting you because your mind is closed.

Kalima
Admin

Ok kev, I have been accused of a lot of things during my lifetime but having a “closed mind” hasn’t been one of them, especially from a stranger.

This conversation is now closed for me, it has become quite tiresome.

whatsthatsound
Member

Debates like this are pretty useless to me, because they tend to do the exact thing organized religion itself does: codify and generalize what can only be innate experiences of spirituality. The question “Is the Catholic Church a force for good?” would need to be considered in respect to the times that individuals turned to it as their bedrock in times of great distress or drew upon it to perform an act of charity or forgiveness. People who have had experiences such as these (my mother comes to mind) would have no problem answering the question for themselves, and yet they wouldn’t know where to begin in terms of countering indictments about the Inquisition, etc.
Perhaps it would be better to ask Hitchens how his atheism has led him to be a better person, and have him debate a simple person like my mom, who would talk about how her faith has sustained her throughout her life. Such a debate would be more revealing than shows like this, that only serve to preach to the converted on either side.

KevenSeven
Member

1) the question is indeed about the “Church” and its dogmas. The fact that lots of nice people believe things and are nice is immaterial. I think your mother did not need a church and its dogmas to be a good person. I think it is innate in her.

BTW, does your mother think homosexuality is morally wrong? How does she stand on abortion? Contraception? Does she agree with Mr Ratzinger that it is more morally wrong to use condoms to fight AIDs in Africa than to accept them as a necessity in that fight?

2) tossing out charity as a defense means that you must defend Hamas and Hezbollah, as both of those organizations do enormous charitable work.

3)Hitchens would very gently and politely demolish your mother in any debate. You can find him going up against a dozen or more real thinkers on the subject. He has toured for going on three years debating theologians. The finest minds in the business. Plus Al Sharpton. He does not flinch from the debate.

Don’t get me wrong. Hitchens pisses the living hell out of me on many things. But not this, and not a great many other things.

whatsthatsound
Member

I think you have missed my point. If a “debate”, as it were, were to ever occur between Hitchens and my mom, I would hope that it would not be about who would “demolish” the other. Personally, I think we have had more than enough demolishment in this world.
What I was getting at would be perhaps the opposite of a debate, but rather a meeting of minds. If my mother and Chris Hitchens were able to share ways in which their personal stands and beliefs have made them better people, then perhaps they could BOTH move past the need to generalize and diminish each other.
Personally, I would be very interested to see Hitchens show his human side. He never smiles, he is always sarcastic, his body language and eye contact is almost always shifty and defensive. Has atheism ever warmed his heart? I’d like to know how. Maybe I would change my mind about both him and what he believes.

And saying my mom would be the same without religion is completely inaccurate. She has lost both her husband and her son in tragic circumstances. She would have given up on life long ago without the belief that she will be rejoined with them in the afterlife. You may not believe in it, but she does, and that is part of what makes her what she is. What can atheism offer her? “The protoplasm specimens that were your husband and son are no longer electrically functioning and so communication with them is now impossible. Please contemplate the vastness of this universe and try to feel better.”?

KQµårk 死神
Member

Godspeed to your mom. She sounds like a wonderful lady.

Perception is reality for many people of faith. I personally don’t need a traditional belief system even though I have been through more than most but I do need family and friends as support along with understanding a little about how I fit in the universe. It’s about attitude, if a person has faith when they discover they have cancer and they survive cancer I’m not going to deny the positive effect it had on their psyche. We already know that people who are motivated survive better than depressed people for example.

I do believe arguing against organized religion and personal faith as much as we would like to separate them are forever intertwined.

whatsthatsound
Member

Thanks, KQ.
From what I have seen from my time at RichardDawkins.net, the arguments do tend to be macrocosmic. Whenever someone interjects with a personal story, a “touched by God” story, it is diminished, perhaps ridiculed, and labeled as not meriting discussion because it doesn’t count as evidence. But then that leaves us with only half the story of religion, the bad half!
Personally, I would like to see the human race move beyond all pyramidal structures, of which organized religion is only one example. But as long as they exist, we have to consider them both in terms of what they do on a large scale and how they serve individuals. For example, you could supplant religion with the automobile industry and say it has been a very bad thing for the environment. You could also point to the thousands of times that an automobile was the difference between life and death for someone rushing their child to the ER. We have to be like Jonie Mitchell and look at these things from “both sides now”.

Khirad
Member

Bernard Marx: exactly.

KevenSeven
Member

Oh, Gebus. Why did I let you insert your mother into this debate?

Your mother is a saint. OK? I think she is just wonderful.

After she has published a dozen books and thousands of columns, and partook in thousands of debates and lectures, then perhaps we can compare them.

Oh, Gebus, I want my kitty.

whatsthatsound
Member

hee hee!

I’l be sure to tell her that KevenSeven has conferred sainthood upon her (as oxymoronic a distinction as ever was).

And you get extra credit for not only missing, but being completely oblivious to my point!

KevenSeven
Member

I am really very uncomfortable having a debate that features your mother. Really.

I’d appreciate it if we could just drop it. Would that be OK?

whatsthatsound
Member

Consider it dropped. I could have used anyone else, or a hypothetical person as an example. Perhaps that would have been the wiser choice. I’m still up for that if you are.

KevenSeven
Member

I really would prefer to not get these debates personal. I should not have gone ahead at the first when you brought your mother into the discussion. The only thing I could say is that your mum is a real nice person and move on. How could I maintain my side of the debate without looking like a monster in relation to your mum?

And I am perfectly happy that you mum has faith. Honestly. Especially considering the trials she has been thru. I just don’t want people imposing their beliefs on me.

whatsthatsound
Member

No worries, K7. I wasn’t intending to debate anyone at first, just state an opinion. I understand your point, and was only intending to make the point that individual experiences of spirituality and faith tend to get overlooked amidst the kind of blanket statements of condemnation that people like Hitchens and Dawkins make. Those two, in particular, “cherry pick” information, which is precisely what they accuse theists of doing.

KevenSeven
Member

Hey, I appreciate it.

And I don’t think that Hitchens and Dawkins say that people are stupid or evil for believing.

Remember: The anti-gay rights movement in this nation wraps itself in piety as an excuse for their hatred.

nellie
Member

I recommend a BBC series called The Atheism Tapes. Some very interesting conversations with atheists from different fields by interviewer Jonathan Miller. Miller doesn’t hold up too well against the one religious guest he interviews — Denys Turner.

More about the series here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/atheism-tapes.shtml

kesmarn
Admin

With all due respect, I think it was the atheists who held up rather poorly in this debate. To resort to the tired old argument of hauling out a laundry list of “bad things” the Church is responsible for is rather weak. After all, it could just as validly be argued that England itself should be abolished, since it participated in the slave trade, treated women badly, tortured its citizens, had corrupt leadership, etc., etc. The only difference being that England has never apologized for anything.

But the bigger point is that there are parts of the human psyche that include the rational mind, but go beyond it as well. Religion (in its healthy forms) takes in rationality and that part of the human spirit that can only be called mystical. Otherwise, it would be inaccessible to those very essential citizens known as “children and fools”!
And if we don’t include children and fools in our lives, we’re all the poorer for it! :o)

KevenSeven
Member

I assure you that Hitchens has only contempt for the CofE. And I think that goes for Fry as well.

This was a debate. The question was posed. It would have been stupid and off topic to discuss the other religions.

I disagree utterly that it is weak to remind the Church of all the crimes it committed in the past, and I think you’re falling into exactly the same hole the MP did. You say and she said “don’t blame the Church for doing evil things like torturing Jews and promoting the slave trade and supporting Fascism in Europe, they were only existing in their time”.

To which Stephen Fry demands “Then what are you for???”

Most religions, but the Catholic Church in particular(in which I was indoctrinated) claim to a moral authority. The Catholic Church claims to have the final word from God. The Pope is infallible. How is that not horseshit if the Catholic Church was rabidly anti-semetic, on an official level, until 1964?

No. Your point is bogus. The fact that the Church has a long and storied history of horrific crimes, including the very recent protection of rapists in their ranks, including the assertion by Mr. Ratzinger that the use of condoms in Africa is morally wrong, just a sin against God, the fact that the Pole made a saint of a man who tortured people to death for the crime of owning a bible in English, is a severe indictment.

If the Church does not know that torture and slavery are wrong, regardless of when they did not know this, then what freaking good are they? Why should anyone give a good goddam what they say today with such a wretched track record?

choicelady
Member

I think most of our member denominations (Protestant) have NO such lofty belief in their own moral superiority. Faith is a constant quest, a journey, not a destination. The one time I addressed a group using very evangelical language (thinking “Beam me out, Scotty!) it turned out the discussion was about advocating for GLBTQ equality! Oy!

Faith is, or should be, the process of expanding one’s horizons, learning to be inclusive, checking your prejudices, moving toward greater compassion for all people and their travails and pain. I’ve lost the thread of who said this above, but I do agree – and that’s where our members are. Faith as a quest. Life as a search for moral good for ALL people, not just one’s own, narrow self.

Churches, old and new, that pretend to have all the answers largely don’t even know the questions. It all comes from fear – we are lost in a world increasingly not in our control. Global capitalism strips so many of us of authority over our lives that it is NO surprise conservative religion comes in to fill that void. It offers certainty, even if that absolutism actually strips us of even more self-control. It’s security. And, from my observations, people who are “born again” do so because they NEED to be. Their own decisions have so often been bad that rules enhance their survival. For those of us who don’t need this, it seems so childish and wrong, but think how many people screw up their lives. Rigid religion is the safe harbor from themselves and an uncertain world. It’s really sad – until they start imposing their views on us. Then it’s another form of evil. Sigh.

KevenSeven
Member

All that is fine. I know of no one who objects to your finding fulfillment in faith.

I know lots of people who object to efforts to teach creationism in public schools. And the intrusion of religion into the question of a woman’s control of her fertility. And the obnoxious and bullshit assertion that America is a “Judeao/Christian Nation”.

I object to “Christians” telling me that God objects to same sex marriage. Tough shit. Let the gays explain it to God when they get there.

I appreciate that you are what would losely be called a “liberal Christian”. Obviously I am not bitching at you.

Khirad
Member

Fair enough.

kesmarn
Admin

Keven, you misread my comment. I didn’t say “Church of England.” I said “England.” As in the State. If you re-read my remarks in that light, they will seem less “stupid.”

What I’m saying is that governments have also committed atrocities against humanity, yet we seldom argue against any form of government anywhere, the way we (some of us) do against religion. There are governments that are better and some that are worse. Same with religions. We’re all imperfect humans. To use the overworked phrase: “It’s better not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.”
And I guess I will let this be the last word I have to say on this, as the reality of having to go out and buy all that stuff for Thanksgiving dinner rolls in upon me! Now…hmmm…the question is: whom to thank…. ? Just kidding!

KevenSeven
Member

Ah, fair point, I was rushing thru. My bad.

But it is an invalid comparison. Truly. The Germany of today is not responsible for the holocaust. That was the Germany of half a century ago. The Germans have acknowledged their crimes and teach the children of the shame of it. Better than America handles the genocide of the Natives or slavery, I would say. Governments come and go.

The Church (cue ponderous music) is eternal. It is forever and infallible.

And we do nothing BUT argue against forms of government, have you been in a cave the last whatever number of years?

Communism, socialism, dictatorship, fascism, NAZIsm, totalitarianism, cleptocracies, autocracies, plutocracy (to go back a few millennia); we have debated the extent of human freedom and social responsibilities for a few centuries or so.

And the debate I cited was not that the Church should be abolished.

The debate was “Resolved: The Catholic Church is a force for good in the world.” I think the pro side did not acquit themselves at all well, and considering the way the vote moved from the start of the debate to the end of the debate, I cannot see how that can be challenged.

What ya cooking?

kesmarn
Admin

Heh! Every time I resolve that I’ve said the last word, somehow one more word comes forth!
I might just add, though, that the Catholic Church of today is not the Catholic Church of the Inquisition, or even the more recent child abuse scandals. Just as the Germany of today is not the Germany of yesterday.
As for what I’m cookin’ (a much jollier topic), here goes: of course, the obligatory turkey (stuffing will include wild rice, mushrooms, currants, pecans, celery, onion and seasoned bread cubes), potatoes (plebian, mashed, what can I say? I love them), cranberry sauce (made with real cranberries…not canned) green beans almondine, sweet potatoes, pumpkin pie (with from scratch crust and my own combo of ginger/clove/cinnamon/nutmeg in the filling) with real whipped cream and coffee that is a blend of Colombian and Costa Rican. Come on over. We’ll have Monsignor O’Hara do the blessing. Hahahahahaha. No. Seriously, we’ll do a wild Wiccan dance around the table before we dine.
Or not……

KevenSeven
Member

There is an American Cardinal at the Vatican that US police have been wanting to question for decades.

He deliberately moved rapist priests from one parish to another, without telling anyone, naturally, that he was sending a preditor among them.

He works for the Vatican, and the Vatican is not going to extradite him to the US.

Plus the Church currently condemns the use of condoms in Africa. Today. In the middle of an AIDS epidemic. Condoms being a sin against god, after all. Better that people die of AIDS than use a condom.

We are joining another family for dinner, and I am making beans with a balsmic finish, stuffing, much as you described, and a gravy from Julia Child. MMMMMMM. Many sticks of butter!

KevenSeven
Member

Oh, and the Germany of today does not include a Nazi party.

Just sayin’.

Khirad
Member

Forgive my snark in the midst of a serious point, but it kinda does (though of course not with any real power):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Democratic_Party_of_Germany

kesmarn
Admin

Oops. I forgot to add that I meant to clarify my awkwardly worded comment, namely: “we seldom argue against any form of government anywhere.” What that was supposed to mean was that people seldom make the statement: “It would be better if no government existed in any place.” Whereas there are a number who would be fine with saying: “It would be better if no religion existed in any place.” Which seems odd to me since both are human inventions (I mean the formal thing known as “religion”, not faith in God) and are equally frail.

So, even though my cave has a wonderful internet connection, I do occasionally venture forth to take note of the fact that, yes, people do criticise governments all the time. But 99% of the time with the notion of switching them to a different form of government. There are very few pure, genuine anarchists running around any more.

KevenSeven
Member

More’s the pity, about the anarchists, that is.

kesmarn
Admin

Hah! I’ve had that feeling myself, on occasion.

KevenSeven
Member

Oh, and you mis-read my comment. I did not say that yours was stupid, I said that it would have been stupid to bring the CofE into the debate under discussion.

And it is a fallacy to bring in governments to compare to religion. That is why it is a REALLY good idea to separate church and state.

kesmarn
Admin

I can safely say we agree on two things, at least: it IS a really good idea to separate church and state.

And cats rule.

As for comparing government to religion, we’ll save that for another day. My feeling is that it’s totally fair, since they’re both man made. Faith is not man made; but religion is.

KevenSeven
Member

That is three things we agree on: That religion is man made.

Frankly, I am pretty sure that God is man made as well.

Now for the fourth thing we can agree on: That Man (or Woman) needs some sort of faith.

But why have faith in some naked bearded fat dude up in the sky?

kesmarn
Admin

Ah…our concept of God is where we really differ. The guy you describe is a cartoon. The Being that inspires faith in believers is a whole different entity.

KQµårk 死神
Member

BernardMarx cheers again. What wonderful thoughts and subject. One of the best parts of this thread is that we can discuss this subject as progressive and liberal minded folks without all the demagoguery, self righteous indignation or calls to orthodoxy that you would see from religious conservatives. Proof that the best belief systems are those that are open to the beliefs of others while freely expressing and maintaining our personal beliefs.

Imagine

choicelady
Member

He really articulated something extraordinary and beautiful. Yes. Imagine.

KQµårk 死神
Member

One of the beauties of employing artistic expression to describe feelings and beliefs is because things like music go beyond words and enhances the human experience. Even though I’m not a classical religious person I still love the feeling I get from listening to some gospel music or music from other faiths. But I do prefer the songs that reference religion to induce thought like “Imagine” of course, “One of Us”, “Natural Blues” and “Losing My Religion” for example. However I do think using pop or rock music to express Christian beliefs is part of the indoctrination process especially for the young.

whatsthatsound
Member

Dating myself here, but I’m a fan of “Jesus Christ Superstar”! I don’t like the movie, as I think the casting was pretty atrocious. But great songs, and a really unique approach.

Questinia
Member

So are the one of you getting serious?

Kalima
Admin

I’m beginning to feel like chopped “Leberwurst.”

whatsthatsound
Member

I’re considering living together. I’re considering that we(?) don’t have much choice about this.

Questinia
Member

Then you one can make all the goo goo cross-eyes you one want.

KQµårk 死神
Member

I don’t want to date myself either but I saw it in a matinee on Broadway when I was in high school. It’s one of my favorite Broadway performances. The understudy who played Jesus was brilliant.

I can’t believe at the tender age or 14-15 my cousin and I would just pop on the bus in NJ and crash the city that young. I saw about ten Broadway shows back then when the matinees were really cheap. Then we’d go in some Irish bar and get sloshed or worse. I can’t imagine a parent even letting their kids go in NYC alone now.

Kalima
Admin

I always date myself, everyone else is just too busy. 🙂

whatsthatsound
Member

🙂

PatsyT
Member

Jesus Christ Superstar
was about a movement and a feeling
I was there
Not like the so called “movement” of today.
I feel the serious Christans at the time were welcoming and positive.
and today……..

AlphaBitch
Member
AlphaBitch

Hi KQuark:

Given your love of music, and given your health issues, one of the most moving, beautiful, yet “religous/spiritual” pieces I have ever heard is the Beth Nielsen Chapman version of “Be Still My Soul”, an old hymn. Beth suffered from the cancer bug herself, and word is that when she awakened at night, unable to sleep, she would sit and play this at the piano. I cannot hear it without tearing up and finding that way to quiet my own restless soul. It was recorded specifically for an album done by some friends, Hands Across the Water, to raise money for the tsunami victims in Banda Aceh. Try and find it, and let it speak to you. I have no idea who you are, don’t tune in long enough to learn where people live, but I do remember seeing something about your struggle and I am aware of the power of music to you. Hope you can find this, and hope it speaks to you as well. Accept no substitutes – it’s a beautiful song, but there is something special in Beth’s voice, a need coming from within at the time. – AB

AuntieChrist
Member

Heh… Religionists.

One would think that we’ve become used to the lunacy of their convictions and their callousness by now. They’re like the rarely seen buzzard in the Pogo comic strip of the 50’s and 60’s. In one such strip, on the day a small gathering of friends gathered together around a coffin to bid adieu to a friend, the buzzard approached from a distance and said, “I’d like to see something nice in a casket.”

Much to the shock of Albert the alligator and everyone else.

I’m kind of out of it… sorry…

I forgot where I was going with my point.

unless it’s been made.

ever in and out of consciousness,

Auntie Christ

KQµårk 死神
Member

Hey AC I knew you would have to chime in on this subject sooner or latter. 🙂

AuntieChrist
Member

alas, if only…

I feel as though I’d been beaten, abducted, beaten again, tossed into a car, thrown from the speeding automobile with the police in pursuit, and then run over by the pursuing police cars and rolled into a ditch.

Then beaten again.

At least I’m covered medically – though it took such an event to almost kill me one time for the state to intervene on my behalf. I’m sorry that I can’t be chiming in as often as I would like, as I need to take frequent breaks from time to time – sometimes without me even knowing. 😉

Kalima
Admin

Sorry to hear this AC, feel better soon.

I feel the beaten and beaten again, then hit by a speeding London double decker bus myself for the last 3 weeks and can sympathize in part with you.

Please take care.

KQµårk 死神
Member

I literally can’t think of a witty retort. I just hope you feel better.

Questinia
Member

Religion may have been human kind’s first stab at the sciences.

Eschatological epistomology and epistomological eschatology.

choicelady
Member

I believe you are correct. Nice insight.

But I have one question. Bernard – what have you got against ancient Norse gods? You just never know when one might come in handy!

KQµårk 死神
Member

Nice to see your insightful contributions as always Q.

At first religion was the only mechanism that answered questions any sentient being would ask.

Why are we here?
Where did we come from?
What is my purpose?
How do I fit in the universe?
What happens to that caveman dude who was just killed by a lion?

Science answers many of these questions better now but we obviously don’t know near enough answers as a species.

Questinia
Member

Hiya KQ!

Religion also structures our anxiety, our grief, our uncertainty, our confusion. All the attendant emotions to the things you’ve listed.

KQµårk 死神
Member

Exactamundo and that’s why when the Roman Catholic church literally had control of people’s thoughts and emotions in the early middle ages, Western Civ stalled.

KevenSeven
Member

All that can be managed without a religious framework.

And if that is all religion is for, then where does God fit in?

nellie
Member

Excellent insight. An attempt to explain the world around us.

whatsthatsound
Member

Here’s a great fantasy:
All the heads of all the major religions come together in a forum and say, “Although our aim is to involve mankind in its spiritual nature, as humans we have often fallen short of this, often with tragic consequences that no God could love. We begin by proclaiming that EVERY time ANY one of our adherents has harmed another or restricted the rights of another or made war against or practiced exclusion against another, either our religion failed us or we failed our religion. No exceptions.”

THAT might jump start the evolution of religion that some of us are considering on this post.

Kalima
Admin

I love your fantasy, I’ve always had one of my own about leaders of different countries. I suggest that before another country gets involved in or starts a war anywhere, they gather in a large place away from the general population, chose their weapon of choice and fight it out between themselves if they can’t reach a solution through diplomacy before sending our innocent men and women to far and remote places to be killed or maimed for a cause that has no merit in the real world.

choicelady
Member

Whatsthatsound – that is very much what the progressive faiths are working to do. I deal daily with leaders from all major religions (and, since we represent Swedenborgians, some minor ones) that are trying to do precisely that. The issue Bernard raises about declaring one another heretics is really the province of the religious conservatives, not the progressives. Most of the “mainstream” churches today embrace knowledge and insights, practices and rituals from across the spectrum. A friend, a Methodist minister, once said to a large audience that if you think of us, then the world, then the solar system, then the galaxy, the the universe – it’s kinda hard to think God is a Methodist. Few clergy and laity today think they have the exclusive march on “truth”.

There are rock-ribbed believers everywhere. Just look at the tin-foil-hat folks…and the guys who built the H-bomb. Rigidity is not confined to religion. NO one would call Dick Cheney religious. But he is a true believer in the superiority and right to hegemony of the US corporate elite (i.e., himself), so…

whatsthatsound
Member

I agree. Most of the people I grew up with are progressive Catholics. They are helpers, not hurters. They volunteer, donate, etc, through programs my former parish has set up. Here in Tokyo, the churches allow AA and AlAnon meetings to congregate. Religion does GREAT things!

But I would like to hold it to a higher standard than politics, technology, etc. Those things have other purposes. Religion has, ostensibly, one and one alone: to teach us to be better people. If it has a grade of say, B minus (I think I’m being generous) in that regard, then the need to pick up the slack is pretty obvious, I feel. Religion needs its own “Stimulus Package”.

Kalima
Admin

I seem to come from this same background of RC’s. My grandparents, although devout in their religious beliefs shared with me their personal beliefs that we were all equal regardless of our religious beliefs or the colour of our skin. Growing up this shaped my own life after witnessing their kindness first hand as a child to people in our neighbourhood who were suffering, didn’t have enough to eat or couldn’t afford new clothes for their children.

I remain grateful for their guidance in a time when there were not so many who felt the same and yet it was something as easy as breathing for them, something that they could do without thinking, they have a huge part of my heart.

AlphaBitch
Member
AlphaBitch

Sad truth being, Dick Cheney labeled himself as a Methodist. My husband and I went to the Conference and asked he be excommunicated. When they didn’t make him leave, WE did. I mainly left because my beloved, open minded and open hearted ministers left and we realized our hearts went with them. But I feel no further from God than when I started the journey. And as I said below, there are times I feel even closer than when I sat in a pew.

Good on all of us. As the song “More Love” says, “Let’s lay down the weapons, that hold us apart; be still for just a minute, try to open our hearts – to more love.”

Suzanne525
Member
Suzanne525

In 2000, I went to the planetarium in NYC. After seeing the “known” universe, what stood out for me was the enormity (is that a word?) of the universe and that we couldn’t possibly be the only populated planet. “God” couldn’t have made just our little earth for special us.

Corgi Lover
Guest

Suzanne, it’s one of the great conceits of the western religious culture that we are the only place where God in all his glory would chose to create life. And if you tell them that if this is the best he can do then you have real questions about him, they get real puffy and loud.

KQµårk 死神
Member

What an eloquent way to express a “golden rule” for religious organizations.

Questinia
Member

What is this little love fest you’re having there with wts?

I may even be in the mood not to give you a headache 🙂

KQµårk 死神
Member

I got love enough for everyone.

(no one read the line below except for Q)

But you know you’re my favorite. 😉

Questinia
Member

And you’re the Kollider of my Quark!

KQµårk 死神
Member

😆 speaking of colliders they are starting the LHC back up for another try. But I’m sure you know this already.

Pepe Lepew
Member

My daughter *loves* the Large Hadron Collider. She’s fascinated with the “God particle.” The best quote I heard about the LHC was from a friend who said she thought it was “spooky.”

KevenSeven