malaysia plane down

In 1915, while World War I was under way, a German U-Boat torpedoed the British passenger ship, The Lusitania, just 11 miles off the southern coast of Ireland. Nearly 1,200 of the approximately 2,000 passengers were killed due to this attack, among them, 128 Americans. This was a major influence on the U.S. declaring war on Germany in 1917.

Has Russia just repeated history by shooting down Malaysian Flight 17 and killing all 298 innocent people aboard? Will a World Economic War be declared against Russia by the European nations who have so far accommodated the weakly camouflaged Russian invasion of Ukraine?

In the case of the Lusitania, the Germans felt justified in destroying it because in addition to being a passenger ship (the largest and most deluxe Cunard ship at the time of its sinking), it also transported military cargo such as munitions. As unacceptable as such self-justification was for the Germans, the Russians apparently shot down Malaysian Flight 17 just because they were trigger happy.

It is important to keep in mind that the Ukraine military transport planes that Russia has shot down recently have all been flying within their own borders, none of them posed any threat to Russia since the soldiers on board were flying to Ukrainian regions to defend their own country from this invasion. Even the fog of war excuse can’t be legitimately used as an excuse since this is a one-sided war posing no threat to Russia…only a threat to its continued occupation and annexation of a sovereign country.

Was such a horrendous act that could galvanize The West against Russia inevitable? Was it only a matter of time until a brutal, militaristic dictatorship such as Russia would go too far to get what it wants that it shocks the rest of the world into turning against it in unity?

Probably so.

Vladimir Putin’s pursuit of returning Russia to world domination status is the kind of madness that has no boundaries and thus would eventually cross the boundaries of conscience, even for the European nations like Germany that have put more importance on getting low cost fuel from Russia than standing up as a moral world citizen, against the murder of innocent people in Ukraine and the stealing of its land and sovereignty.

Sometimes it is very difficult for decent people to understand how those who act in evil ways think. How could a fellow human being show such disregard for the lives of other human beings? How can they create a situation where a mistake means blowing up a jet carrying 298 innocent people (and devastating the thousands of friends, children, family members and colleagues of those murdered), some of whom were top researchers on AIDS, devoting their lives to helping their fellow human beings? And to add more to this outrage, Russia’s attempt to cover up their murderous attack, stealing away some of the dead bodies and body parts while leaving others to rot as they prevented others from coming to the site, stealing evidence and the black boxes from the scene and accusing Ukraine of committing this heinous act that Russia did.

The unrestrained and inhuman violence of Putin’s Russia has been laid bare to the world through this horrible act. Nations that have been more worried about their economies to decisively push back against Russia should now see that their economies won’t fare too well if the world is destabilized by a militaristic, war mongering nation (though they shouldn’t need to come to a correct moral position solely because it’s more financially beneficial).

Could this be Russia’s Lusitania which brings together the rest of the world to step up united and against them? As the often coined quote attributed to Edmund Burke goes, “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”

And it is hard to see how this affront to our civilization and society, the callous murder of nearly 300 people flying tens of thousands of feet above an invaded nation can be met by the most powerful and influential nations in this world, with nothing.

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Kalima
Admin

In case you missed that the EU is not just sitting on their hands lamenting.

—-

Russia lambasts new EU sanctions

Russia warns new EU sanctions against it over the Ukraine crisis will jeopardise security co-operation and the fight against terrorism.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28502256

kesmarn
Admin

Good for the EU, Kalima!

And Russia is implying that these sanctions are — in effect — giving aid and comfort to international terrorists?

Did they ever stop to ask themselves whether or not they might BE international terrorists?

Kalima
Admin

Well they shot down a civilian passenger plane. I think they are, kes.

Interesting article I was saving for the next MB.

PUTIN’S NUMBER ONE GUNMAN IN UKRAINE WARNS HIM OF POSSIBLE DEFEAT

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/25/putin-s-number-one-gunman-in-ukraine-warns-him-of-possible-defeat.html

kesmarn
Admin

A fascinating article, Kalima. The situation is incredibly complex. And seemingly in constant flux. Just weeks ago, it seemed that the Ukrainian forces were hopelessly out-gunned and that Putin was riding a wave of popularity.

This story really disputes that. Strelkov-Girkin seems to be becoming more isolated and cut off from reinforcements and supplies while Putin’s own position seems tenuous. I would never have predicted that at this point!

The Prez was so wise to keep us out of this mess. And so many others!

Kalima
Admin

Couldn’t agree more, kes. Putin is as usual faking his glory for those Russians who actually give a shit, and we know from the last stolen elections that the numbers are dwindling.

“I’m ready for my close-up Mr. Stalin”.

James Michael Brodie
Member

Interesting.
I hope the US does not use this moment as a run-up to what would be World War III. Nothing is as neat as it was more than a half century ago.

Much has changed since 1945:

• A new world war would be fought on multiple continents – including this one. The ability to launch attacks using small, mobile technology has eliminated the traditional battlefield. Think 911.

• Nations will be forced to choose sides, and it is not clear who will fall in where. Some European nations, slave to Russia’s oil wealth, will be forced to fall in line with Putin. Perhaps this is why they have been slow to sanction.

• Divisions within the US. Congress and the White House are already at war with one another – with impeachment and the first-ever removal of a sitting president too much of a reality to ignore. Will Congress boot Obama as a prelude to war? Will Obama declare war to keep his job?

• Nations are not as homogenous and monolithic as they once were. Even the US, which was more diverse than other nations, is even more so. What impact would a global conflict have on relationships within the borders of the nations involved? Would we see the return of concentration camps and internment camps?

These are just a few quick thoughts that come to mind. While you could make the argument that this could be a Lusitania moment, I am hoping that it is not, and that world leaders are smart enough to act in other ways to stifle Putin’s advances.

Nirek
Member

Brodie, I share your fears. I have had the same thoughts about the possibility of a WWIII. I am praying hard that it never happens.
There are war mongers who will profit by a BIG war. Those are also the same people in powerful positions. But I doubt that Americans have the stomach for any more wars.

Peace is far better, my friend.

Misterbadexample
Member

Ad Lib–Interesting that you use the Lusitania as your frame. AFAIK the Lusitania was in fact carrying millions of rounds of ammunition to Britain, along with other war materiel. It might have even mounted a deck gun (carefully hidden). The Germans had offered the US safe passage of its ships as long as they were marked as American (I think they wanted some sort of flag painted on the hull, visible to a submarine), and they would allow boarding to check for contraband. The US rejected this. It was clear that Churchill (at the time the supreme Civilian commander of the Royal Navy) hoped that an incident like the attack on the Lusitania would come to pass.

The other conundrum–the Lusitania was struck by a torpedo, which in most cases was not sufficient to sink a ship of the period. It was a secondary explosion that destroyed the ship and lead to the huge loss of life. There’s some suspicion that the torpedo set off the contraband, and THAT is what sunk the Lusitania. In effect, the Brits were using civilians onboard as human shields.

I’m posting this because there are numerous questions about the chain of events. The Russians have great concerns about Ukraine, because if the US is able to enroll a free Ukraine in NATO, they will have weapons right on their border.

KillgoreTrout
Member

Aren’t you forgetting the fact that Germany was at war with England and England was our ally?

The sinking of the Lusitania was an act of war, where there could be no justification. Was America supposed to kow-tow to Germany? Germans were bombing the shyte out of England, killing thousands of civilians.

What evidence do you have to suggest that Churchill was hoping for an incident like the sinking of the Lusitania? Yes, he wanted us in the war, but I doubt that he wanted our participation by means of the killing of so many civilians.

Misterbadexample
Member

England was NOT our ally when the Lusitania was sunk. The Lusitania was sunk in May of 1915: The US didn’t enter the war until April 1917. Wilson ran in ’16 on a peace platform.

The US was ostensibly trying to stay neutral prior to the declaration of war. But the idea that the Lusitania was a civilian ship was put to rest in 2008, when divers looking at the wreckage found a cache of millions of rounds of rifle ammunition. As for Churchill, he is quoted in this link as welcoming the attack on an American or other neutral civilian ship in the hope that its sinking would mobilize public opinion on the war. There’s more about it here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1098904/Secret-Lusitania-Arms-challenges-Allied-claims-solely-passenger-ship.html

Not a big fan of the Daily Mail, but this particular article is pretty straightforward. And all of the passengers of the Lusitania could have traveled on other liners which were not targeted.

KillgoreTrout
Member

This is from wikipedia-“Although the special relationship between the United Kingdom and the United States was most famously emphasised by British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, its existence had been recognised since the 19th century, not least by rival powers.[2][3][4][5][6][7] Their troops had been fighting side by side—sometimes spontaneously—in skirmishes overseas since 1859, and the two democracies shared a common bond of sacrifice in World War I.”

So yes, we were allies at the time of the sinking of the Lusitania. I read what Churchill supposedly wrote in a letter about wanting more neutral ships coming to England. First of all I doubt the authenticity of such a report. Secondly, Churchill never said he hoped any of these neutral ships were sunk. The Daily News is nearly the English equivalent of our National Enquirer.

Still to my point, this was an act of war against England.

pinkpantheroz
Member

From Australia’s Herald Sun Newspaper:
“PRO-Russian separatist Igor Girkin and the self-proclaimed Prime Minister of Donetsk Alexander Borodai have been linked to the bombing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.
The radical military man and shadowy so-called politician have been leading a pro-Russian rebellion against the Ukrainian government.

There are claiming autonomy in Donetsk, a small region in eastern Ukraine.

Girkin allegedly claimed credit for the attack on a Russian social media page.

“The plane has just been taken down somewhere around Torez (Donetsk Oblast). It lays there behind the Progress mine. We did warn you — do not fly in ‘our sky’,” he said through his account on VK, the Russian version of Facebook.

“And here is the video proving another ‘bird’ falling down. The bird went down behind the slagheap, not in the residential district. So no peaceful people injured. There is also information about another plane shot.”

The posts were later removed but Girkin, who also goes by the name of Strelkov, or shooter, has been labelled as the prime suspect in the bombing that has shocked the world. ”

Well, here’s a suggestion for the world. A Class Action civil suit against those guys AND their tinpot ‘new republics’! MAS claims Billions, all the countries who lost citizens sue for billions, the families of the lost claim billions. then watch and see how the ‘Prime Minister’ and his cronies react. Then let’s see if Putin pays the settlements!

pinkpantheroz
Member

I may be in the minority here, but I do not think that this downing was a terrorist act. I think some poorly trained rocketeer saw a blip on the screen and just let fly. The new missiles have an effective range up to 40,000 feet, whic he might not have even known. Airlines regularly fly over civil war zones because the chance of the usually shoulder mounted missiles reaching their cruising heights are remote at best. There are airways over Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq used daily by airlines. A well-trained missileer would have seen the transponder code, the altitude and concluded it was an overflying commercial a/c.

The major problem is of course that, having to their horror discovered their mistake, the rebels called their masters in Russia, who told them to cover everything up. Too late. the cat was out of the bag, and so Russia is now ‘assisting’ the investigation, having already contaminated the scene and removing evidence. So some poor bastard in the rebel group will be the scapegoat, but will conveniently disappear, along with the missile launcher, into the vast steppes of Russia. Still, the remains and the Data and voice recorders are on their way to the Netherlands. But the main evidence, the wreckage and any sign of missile strikes, are still in Ukraine and now contaminated badly, let alone the looting that has gone on. But no war will come of this. Like KAL007, the truth of the error will finally come out. When? God knows.

kesmarn
Admin

PPO, I just finished watching the BBC News this evening, and they discussed the preliminary results of the investigation into this event. They are in agreement with your speculation!

They seem to be saying that this plane was brought down as the result of incompetence rather than as a planned terrorist act.

Of course, the investigators aren’t absolving the Russians of responsibility for putting these weapons in the hands of the separatists and failing to train them.

But as you say — this may have been a case of a “poorly trained rocketeer” getting hold of a “toy” he didn’t know how to use.

Beatlex
Member
Beatlex

Of Course this is all the Presidents fault.Never mind that his predecessor had lit a match in the region,and we are now seeing the results it wrought.GWB opened Pandora’s box and now the President is left to deal with the horrors that are within it.I know this is not Iraq,but I think it is all connected.GWB changed the balance of power

Beatlex
Member
Beatlex

We will see if justice is more important than the economic well being of countries.Sad to say my money is on the latter

Kalima
Admin

Great article, AdLib. In lieu of a longer comment today, a few links. Sorry.

MH17 black boxes handed over by pro-Russia rebels

Malaysian officials receive flight recorders from downed plane in ceremony after 12 hours of negotiations

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/22/mh17-black-boxes-handed-over-pro-russia-rebels

—-

WHY PUTIN LET MH17 GET SHOT DOWN

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/18/why-ukraine-erupted-again.html

—-

To answer some questions about Europe, these two articles.

Conscious uncoupling

Reducing Europe’s dependence on Russian gas is possible—but it will take time, money and sustained political will

http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21600111-reducing-europes-dependence-russian-gas-possiblebut-it-will-take-time-money-and-sustained

—-

Europe is slow, not weak — Putin’s going to feel more pressure

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/21/5923289/european-sanctions-on-russia

kesmarn
Admin

The Matt Yglesias article is very interesting, Kalima. Consensus building among 28 European nations must be an incredibly difficult task.

It’s quite a time in history, isn’t it? In decades past the almost-reflexive reaction to this situation in Ukraine would have been for the whole world to say: “Get in there and fix things, America.”

No longer. The President has made it clear that this country cannot afford to police the world. Players with a stake in the game have to take a share of the risk — in Europe, Asia, the Middle East, Africa, Central America, everywhere. Which is very difficult, but I think necessary.

Now if we can just persuade American voters not to elect another Dubya-type President who would turn the clock back to the bad old days — when we were the global king-makers and bullies.

Let Europe move slowly, as Yglesias describes. As long as they move.

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

Very wise words, Kesmarn!

If we never have another president like GW Bush,
whose guiding principle was “Ready…FIRE!!!…aim,”
it will be too soon.

kesmarn
Admin

Absolutely, NoMan! It’s too bad we even had him the first time around, isn’t it?

For me, he ranks as the worst president in American history. Below even Nixon and Reagan — and that’s pretty low!

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

There’s no question about Bush
being the worst president in
history, Kesmarn, and we never
should have even had him the
first time around.

If there were a contest for the
worst president in American
history, Bush would win going
away in the shade!

All he’s ever been good at is
being bad.

Nirek
Member

NoMan, you and I think alike! “w” will go down in history as the worst potus ever, in my opinion.

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

That’s for sure, Nirek, and millions
of my best friends agree with us! 😉

Kalima
Admin

Nail on the head, kes, and the trouble being that some former Eastern Bloc, newer members, are not so against getting their gas from Russia.

Europe has always taken their time to make decisions. The awful memories of the second WW still not such a distant memory for many. Better to take the time to explore all options, than to charge in, kill innocents, and make enemies around the world for life.

Thankfully, your President feels the same way.

EXFANOFARIANA
Member
EXFANOFARIANA

Kalima, I cannot seem to find our conversation on OT…..Everybody is talking about those kids WHEN, Israel begged HAMAS to evacuate the school.Why aren’t you talking about the 3 Israelis teens murdered by them?This is all a bloody mess.The world stands now on the verge of yet another immense suffering…WWIII? Nobody wins, that’s for sure.3 1/2 billion people unemployed on this planet.The lesser ones (economically) keep reproducing……WHERE IS THE FOOD AND WATER FOR EVERYBODY? How will they survive? Peace.

Kalima
Admin

Hi ExFan, if you follow down from monicaangela’s first comment with video on TOOT, I replied to you there.

The story about the murdered Israeli teens was top news for weeks all over the world, and I posted links on MB too. Then what about the 16 year old Palestinian boy, snatched off the street, beaten and burned alive in retaliation for the murder of those teens? What did he do to deserve such brutality?

There will be no WW3 because of this, no one is that stupid, and as for the unemployed, blame that on decades of bad leadership, ruthless corporations, and the politicians who sit in their back pockets and pimp for them while they pay less in taxes than we do.

We can’t stop people from having children. We can offer them safe and hopefully affordable birth control so that they have other options.

Take care.

KillgoreTrout
Member

Brava Homie! When I think of the more than a trillion dollars and so many lives wasted in our little Iraq and Afghanistan ventures, it makes me sick.

Think of all the good that could have been done with all of that? Genuine universal healthcare, jobs created, a much improved infrastructure, a more advanced space program, a beefed up Social Security……etc.

The president, once again, is doing the right thing by not rushing in to the Ukraine with guns blazing.

2014 GOTV! 2016 GOTV!

kesmarn
Admin

Thank you for the kind (and wise) words, Homie. I’m so totally with you on this.

We finally have a man in the Oval Office who has some mature and humane priorities. The thought of sliding backward with some trigger-happy GOPer getting in there should be enough to get even the most dedicated couch potato to the polls.

Nirek
Member

Kes and KT, you two make sense and I have to agree with you both!

We need to keep “chickenhawks” out of power positions.

kesmarn
Admin

Exactly, Nirek! We’ve already had more than enough of them. Always willing to put people in harm’s way — as those as those “people” don’t include them and their kids.

EXFANOFARIANA
Member
EXFANOFARIANA

It’s like re-reading – and re-enacting Dante’s Inferno all over.Putin KNOWS he has the best hand being the biggest provider of gas to Europe.This goon wants to take back Russia to it’s former Empire but only to serve 101 billionaires…he is their puppet. Meanwhile the Dutch Prime minister is fuming mad yet I feel there is not a factual move to confront this s.o.b.The UK housing market – upscale – depends on this mob to inflate their houses and apartments. F*cking Reagan worst mistake was to tear down the wall.Albeit Gorbachev’s original idea,it was dismantling by itself, RayGun sped up the process with his theatrical act. And they were not ready.I do not believe Europe will have an aggressive reaction to this horrific attack. Germany got rid of it’s nuclear power and is now depending more on Gastrom.If Putin – the PUTA – decides to cut Ukraine’s gas supplying s, they are effedup.
But I also read independent European blogs, the sanctions against Putin could be devastated to his masters.At this point, they will have to kill him.Exceptional idea…Yet, who will take his place? Another oligarch? One has only to study the Russian history to check….history repeats itself.There is no way we are coming out of it without another war or major international screw up.
Meanwhile in D.C , the war mongers are rubbing their hands thinking how much money they can make off it.Selling more and more weapons…..

RSGmusic
Member
RSGmusic

Agreed EXFANOFARIANA.

The ghost is waiting on a reply about Ghost stories.

lots of singing i apologize for that !!

long life!!

Nirek
Member

Ad, everyone is right to be upset over this incident. Even more , I’m upset that airlines would fly passenger planes over what is known to be a war zone! The Russians are definitely involved. There is no doubt. But we should shut them off from the rest of the world until they come to their senses.

I sure hope we do not jump the gun and start WWIII! We can’t afford to go off half cocked. I think denying Russia the right to land their planes or ships will have an economic impact as Allymax mentioned.

KillgoreTrout
Member

You make a good point Nirek. What was Malaysia Airlines thinking when they decided to fly over such a war torn area? I don’t blame them for the attack. I blame the assholes who fired that missile. But to have the complete lack of common sense to reroute their flight path is also inexcusable.

Other major airlines have had the good sense to fly around that area of military conflict.

Nirek
Member

I think all the areas that have unrest should be avoided by airlines, KT. Like you said it is common sense to avoid war torn countries. Unfortunately “common sense” is UNCOMMON today. Business people are too greedy to take the time and effort to fly around such areas.

KillgoreTrout
Member

Hey Ad. No doubt this is a really screwed up situation. “A train carrying the remains of most of the almost 300 victims of the Malaysia Airlines plane downed over Ukraine left the site on Monday, after the Malaysian Prime Minister reached a deal with the leader of pro-Russian separatists controlling the area.” According to Reuters.

Over 280 bodies had been bagged and placed in refrigerated rail cars that are headed back to the Netherlands. The black boxes too.

While this is a good thing, it far from excuses those responsible for downing the plane. Was it an accident, a horrible error in indentifying just what type of plane it was that the rebels shot at?

Did Russia order that plane to be shot down? Due to stiffer sanctions, will Russia cut off vital oil and gas supplies to Europe?

This is such a dangerous situation and as many facts that can be found, must be found. No country should act in haste right now.

Keep in mind that when the Lusitania was sunk by the Germans, the world did not have nuclear weapons. Russia has a few thousand of them, and so do we, and so does France and England. Would Putin be insane enough to actually use them if pressed to the wall?

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

Most passionately and eloquently said, AdLib.

If the world doesn’t make this appalling war crime Putin’s Lusitania
moment, what WILL it take to show the monster of Moscow there
are some lines he can cross only at his, and Russia’s, peril?

While Putin is technically the “president” of Russia, in reality he’s nothing more than the latest in the long line of degenerate and psychotic czars and dictators. Ivan the Terrible and Stalin would
have been proud of him.

Allymax
Member
Allymax

“And it is hard to see how this affront to our civilization and society, the callous murder of nearly 300 people flying tens of thousands of feet above an invaded nation can be met by the most powerful and influential nations in this world, with nothing.”

It’s even more difficult to understand why those EU nations with passengers aboard the downed airliner haven’t denied landing rights to Aeroflot and frozen Putin’s private bank accounts as punishment for his incursion into a sovereign nation and Russia’s financial support, her providing weaponry and training in the use of weapons of mass destruction to separatists.

And it’s equally hard to stomach why no western leader has objected to stuffing remains of victims onto cattle cars and that the private effects of victims have been rifled through and that western “monitors” at the scene allowed in by drunken thugs aren’t the same as qualified aviation crash investigators who should have been at the scene immediately following the crash, protecting its victims and evidence and conducting an internationally accepted investigation before evidence was contaminated.

Nirek
Member

Well said Allymax. I have to think the EU would join the US in sanctions.