marines - war

Yes I am a veteran of the Vietnam War. My Dad was a career Army veteran of both the WWII and Korean War. I lived as a dependent almost 19 years and saw first hand that I did not want to be in the Army. Unfortunately I was drafted when I was 21 and served my two years. I spent most of 1969 in Vietnam against my will. I could have gone to Canada when I got my first draft notice, but  could not disgrace my Dad’s good name. More of that can be read from my first article.

http://planetpov.com/2014/03/31/life-of-a-draftee/

Going to war without really wanting to is not easy.  I was against the war but out of respect for my Father I had to “do my duty to my country”.  I did my two years and got out alive.

I don’t believe we should commit our military to war without first giving a lot of thought and research into why we should or shouldn’t put them in harm’s way. I believe we did that the case of WWII. The rest of our wars, not so much. In fact we got into the last two as knee jerk reactions.

How much blood and treasure have we wasted on wars? What if we had not gone into those wars and had put the trillions of dollars into our country and its infrastructure and alternative “green” energy? Would we have a better economy? Would our domestic programs have been funded? Would we have fully funded the VA and taken care of the veterans who were damaged physically or mentally? Would some of the people who lost their lives have found a cure for cancer, a better way to collect solar energy, or done something wonderful for humankind?

As always I invite your response, questions, and insights. Let’s have a conversation about peace instead of war.

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Misterbadexample
Member

Nirek–
Thanks for the article.

The reason the US has felt safe about committing troops since Reagan is that we did away with the draft in the 70’s and substituted a ‘poverty draft’. As long as middle-class kids weren’t coming home in body bags, the political pressure to justify military action was pretty muted. I’m given to understand that some 40% of the people we deployed during the Gulf War have qualified for disability as a result of exposure to toxins like depleted uranium and problems with the anti-nerve gas inoculations given out without proper testing. If that toll had been spread out a bit more, I think there’d be far more widespread protest against military adventures.

Mojave Green
Guest
Mojave Green

Nirek, I’m a recent arrival here and your little post is the first one that’s made a lot of sense to me. Thank you for that, cause I was already considering leaving because, and I haven’t really read all that many posts, but a couple of them, to me, were so far from reality that I was beginning to think I’d wandered into a cult headquarters. Ya see, I’m a U.S. citizen who’s been out of the country for more than a decade, and the information the U.S. is fed, by a media so corrupted that a ‘project’, as stated;

“We’ll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false.” And that comes directly from the mouth of the CIA director, Bill Casey, in 1981.

The recent gutting of something called the ‘Smith-Mundt Act’, which got a lot of coverage worldwide, yet in my admittedly limited scanning any U.S. corporate ‘news media'(sic) I’d think the NYT having to come out and admit Photoshopping pictures peddling the Ukraine ‘Big Lie’ that is but a phase in the build up to World War 3. The truth is the exact opposite of what most all citizens of the U.S. are literally being ‘programmed’. I get off on tangents, but if you want to scare yourself, search ‘tv mind control’. Out of the 93 million hits I got on that (using StartPage), find a source you have some trust in, and find out that not only do gringos watch more television than anyone else on Earth, most of them believe some of what they’re told……..and then it get’s really bad. If you feel up to a clear, factual and historically documented horror story I’d much appreciate your opinion of it. I missed Vietnam by only months and I’m sorry you didn’t. And all the more reason you should watch ‘All Wars Are Bankers Wars’ at the following link. Pura vida

confuseddemocrat
Member

You are correct Mojave in your assessment. I knew we were in trouble and the independent press was a myth when I saw david gregory “mock rapping” with Karl Rove.

First it was racially offensive and second it showed how cozy these guys had become. It said that objectivity was gone.

Third, when CBS fired Dan Rather (who was deliberately set up by the bushies) but kept Lara Logan who essentially turned 60 minutes into a semi propaganda arm of the GOP Benghazi witch hunt, I realize that the media had lost its soul.

And my suspicions about the media have been subsequently confirmed by Chuck Todd who stated his job as a journalist was not to ascertain whether politicians tell the truth.

The fourth estate no longer exists.

Mojave Green
Guest
Mojave Green

Thanks for an encouraging word. You have no idea how little it takes me to grab for any hope I see or read. Your final sentence says it all, because out here in what I call ‘the real world’, scanning what passes for ‘press’ in the U.S. could be coming from a different planet, if you didn’t know different. I wonder if the U.S. general stating that when training ISIS in Jordan, he knew some of them were given U.S. passports, got any ‘press’ coverage in the U.S.? And forgive my long rambling style of ranting, but I type fast and sometimes lose track of what my hands are doing, while my mind is racing.

KillgoreTrout
Member

MG, do you really think that in today’s “information age,” with computers and the world wide web, that Americans are only limited to what our corporate controlled media spews on a daily basis? Do you think there are no Americans, besides yourself that don’t have friends and family living and working in many different countries around the world?

You describe the “real,” world as only being outside the US? Seriously?

Are there people in America who let themselves be spoon fed by our corporate media? Of course there are, but there are a great many of us who take the time and expend the energy to look beyond the talking heads and their greed based agendas.

Kalima
Admin

Which posts exactly are you referring too when you say, this?

Nirek, I’m a recent arrival here and your little post is the first one that’s made a lot of sense to me. Thank you for that, cause I was already considering leaving because, and I haven’t really read all that many posts, but a couple of them, to me, were so far from reality that I was beginning to think I’d wandered into a cult headquarters.

The members who write the posts here are neither misinformed nor cult members, and many of the posts are either tongue-in-cheek, or obvious parody, so to insult the work of other members here is not appreciated.

Our members are some of the most informed people on the web, so please show them some respect. Thanks.

Mojave Green
Guest
Mojave Green

NO DISRESPECT INTENDED!
I wish I could tell you that, but as I said, I’m new here. And on top of that, I have what anyone would call a ‘unique outlook’, as I’m generally surrounded by a lot of different people and cultures, and sometimes it changes daily. And I’m half insane from watching the country of my birth get flushed down the toilet. And apparently so ‘unique’ that I find some people’s outlook on ‘facts’ (those that are interspersed with propaganda bordering on actual mind control) (look into the effects of television on the human brain, just for starters) that I don’t want to ‘insult’ people that I think might actually be ill……and just not know it. I’m dead serious, and I’m trying to put it all in decent order (I tend to run on and on, maybe you’ve noticed) I’m just unaware exactly how much of it’s ‘willful’ ignorance and how much is heaped on the U.S. public to the breaking point, that makes them beyond any definition of ‘willful’. I’m closing on 60 years old and have been carefully studying and taking part, to a degree, in the impending collapse that’ll make the worst worst ‘global warming’ scenario seem like a Sunday picnic by comparison. And I’m still stupid enough to be optimistic against all available evidence and contrary to all of world history, so I gotta be at least a little diplomatic in getting people to face a truth that’s staring them right in the face and right in public. The video I posted is entirely factual (there’s a bit of rhetoric, not much, in it that I won’t back up……maybe) And how would you suggest getting people to realize that all this Democrat/Republican charade, the one party that’s really named the ‘Lesser Evil’ party. And your corporate swill is so overwhelmingly massive………and I’m not what you’d call the most ‘patient’ person on Earth. Sometimes I even manage to come off as an asshole to those in deepest denial. A lot of Huff Compost folks around it seems (I sometimes managed to get 5% of my comments there posted) and they NEVER printed anything that mentioned the unrepentant Nazi collaborator, ‘backer’ of it, or the item that I saw on two continents in newspapers, the one about how HP and Atlantic magazine were posting blogs written by a known CIA ‘asset’, without informing their readers of that information. Nor anything documenting two psychopaths that have been involved with both parties for decades…..one wanted for war crimes, even though the ‘President’ last year hung a ‘Medal of Freedom’ (I think that’s what they called it) around his neck. See what I mean about running on and on? I finally find a place that actually posts my scrawlings and I’m speechless. It’d be a big help if you watch the video I included and give me your opinion. And watch it knowing that the U.S. population constitutes 4% of global population but;
1. takes more than 50% of ALL produced pharmacuticals
2. has 25% of the worlds prison population
3. on average, spend 34 hours a week staring at a TV, a world record
4. most obese people on Earth
5 most single person households
6. highest divorce rate by a wide margin
7. have 50% of all lawyers on planet Earth
8. produces almost 90% of all pornography
9. highest teen pregnancy rate
10. the highest death by child abuse
11. since 2001 has shipped more than 56,000 factories overseas, 75% of them employed more than 500 people, and Obama’s secret TPP negotiations, secret even from the Congress is described as “NAFTA on steroids”
12. 29% of U.S. citizens think an ‘armed revolt’ will be necessary in the near future
13. Spends more on the military than the next highest 12 combined
14. 8.5 TRILLION dollars unaccounted for by pentagon since 1998
15 a military veteran commits suicide 22 times a day
16. the government ‘borrows’ $40,000 a second…..24/7

I think you see where I’m going with this, huh? Sorry, but if I don’t laugh occasionally I’d be crying every waking hour. And the age old ‘divide and conquer’ game they got people believing has everyone pointing at someone else thinking “it’s all their fault”. I’m really sorry, but this stuff get’s me excited (not in a good way). I’m saying it’s clear from many perspectives that those that own and operate the U.S. are leading us towards World War 3. Read any of Brzezinski or Kissingers books before you say “no way!” And, as a favor to a total stranger, and to yourself and the world, let me know what you think of ‘All Wars are Bankers Wars’, because the guy does put the biggest part of the puzzle together for you. And whenever I say ‘you’, I don’t mean you personally (unless I specify otherwise) The ‘you’ is everyone, including me (to a small extent)

I’m going to see if I can figure out how to put a picture in this reply. If it works it’ll be one or two of the ‘no hesitation’ targets that the treasonous ‘DHS’ spent two million dollars on, to train the FDA, IRS, USDA and many other agencies that have bought tens of thousands of submachine guns to use that now more than two billion rounds of hollow point (illegal in war) bullets on. Even if you think I’m nuts, wait till after you’ve seen the video to decide for sure. All this stuff I’m ranting about is in the news everywhere (almost), all the time. Except in the U.S.

[img]http://media.washtimes.com/media/community/viewpoint/entry/2013/02/28/LET-Targets-640_s640x427.jpg?73b8e21685896c3f2859310aaa5adb253919b641[/img]

Kalima
Admin

Then instead of insulting others here after reading just a few posts, why don’t you write a post with your pov and give others a chance to read, agree or disagree with you? I can assure you that when they disagree they will be civil because that’s how we run The Planet for the last five years.

If you think you can do better, then please show us. We also like to have opinions backed up with facts and not just a video, so links are very important. If I were you I would give it a go.

You can find how to write a post in our FAQ, or the basics are also written here.

http://planetpov.com/faq/terms-of-use/

For your information I’m European, don’t live in the U.S. and probably know more about that “real” world out there than you do. I hardly watch any tv, and never during the day. I will never swallow a news story until I’ve researched it from many different reliable sources so I can form my own opinion.

confuseddemocrat
Member

PS. has anyone seen John McCain? He seems to have disappeared after the release of the so-called “ISIS” photographs

confuseddemocrat
Member

Hi Nirek, I, like you, am always trying to figure out what is the benefit for those who are pushing for these continuous interventions.

Here is my list:

1) Oil and gas guys backing the GOP get to make more money because conflicts in the ME increases gas and fuel prices

2) Military industry get more orders for armaments

3) security industry (private contractors) get more contracts

4) Those who wish to cut social programs use the looming budget deficits created by these interventions as the excuse for destroying the safety net

5) wars and threats of terrorism (created by these wars) keep Americans fearful and thus more likely to trust in the “war” party also known as the modern gop

monicaangela
Member

@Nirek,

No, I did not read any of the comments, I will now that you have mentioned them. Yes, I did know KQuark and Bito, we were friends and fans over at HP for quite some time. I learned a lot from them and yes, they were very wise. They were two of the people I missed most when I left HP. They both of them invited me to come to PlanetPOV, along with AdLib. I wish I had taken them up on their invitation a lot sooner than I did.

monicaangela
Member

@KilgoreTrout,

In the case of my comparison of the Iraq War and the Revolutionary war, I did it just to emphasize the fact that both wars were about enrichment of those that felt the need to take the country to war. First against the British, yes for independence, but also for self rule regarding commerce…profit, and I don’t have to explain what the Iraq war was all about, but you’ll notice the same principle involved there as well…Corporate Greed.

monicaangela
Member

@NoManIsAnIsland,

You are correct, I did misspell Martin Niemöller’s name. I hate to admit it, but I too am prone to typos. Sorry about that. 😉 Thank you. 🙂

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

You’re welcome, monicaangela, and there’s no need to apologize! I KNEW it was merely a slip of the finger; and as I wrote, I corrected it only for anyone (not likely a regular poster on PlanetPOV) who wasn’t familiar with Niemöller.

Although I’ve never maid typing misteaks, I can emphasize with your very miner flailing! 😉

You’re still tops in my book for your far-ranging knowledge and insights (with which I agree far more often than not) and your diligent and accurate research. In my eyes you are, in the words of Mrs. Malaprop, my great ventor, “the very pineapple of perfection!”

O.K., my secret can’t be swept any longer, as by now you must have knotted my great ease in depressing the English language and have guessed how I detained it!

Yes, yes, I’m extremely shroud to remit I amended Mrs. Malaprop’s School of Diction and Electrocution. And when I told her my guiding precipice of life was “Discretion is the better part of velour,” she desisted that I graduate summa cum loudly!

That’s my story, and I’m ticking to it. 🙂

monicaangela
Member

LOL !!!! That response is genius in my opinion. Completely filled with typos, yet somehow easily deciphered. I laughed all the way through, but did not misunderstand a single word. Thank you for letting me off the hook where my error was concerned, and though I appreciate what you just did, I do realize how important it was to make the correction. Let me just extend my gratitude with the following quotes, they say what I feel much better than I ever could express it:

Good friends care for each other. Close friends understand each other, But true friends stay forever..beyond words, beyond distance, beyond time…!

I won’t promise to be your friend forever, because I won’t live that long. But let me be your friend as long as I live. 🙂

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

Monicaangela, I’m used to being damned
with faint praise and even praised with
faint damns, but you’ve just taken the cake!

I really don’t see what I’ve done to reserve
your great condiments, but you had me
with “…But true friends stay forever….”
and I’ll be honored to be YOUR friend, too,
as long as I live.

I was tempted to say “You’ve touched my
hart,” but you’ve really touched my heart. 🙂

monicaangela
Member

Aww, I feel a song coming on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbdSnVOc9ew

🙂 😉 🙂 😉

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

“Aww” is right, monicaangela,
and I couldn’t have said it
better.

I haven’t heard Ethel Mermaid
in years, and hearing this song
again is the perfect way to
inaugurate our own mutual
admiration society:):):):)!!!!

sillylittleme
Member

Simply put: brilliant.

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

Sillylittleme, I don’t know if I can expunge
my emotions aqueductly enough to thank you.

All I can say is I’m simply thumbstruck with
…I don’t know…I’m just at a loan for words!

sillylittleme
Member

LOL!! Ewe sertinly have a weigh with wirds.

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

Threeché! Ewe do to!

Kalima
Admin

I was told that as a child I hated violence of any kind, and that once I could understand the ins and ours of wars, I suggested that the leaders of those countries who wanted armed combat, should be locked together in one large room, with all the fire power available to either talk it through, or fight it out amongst themselves.

I still feel the same way and think the deaths of innocents and their labelling as “collateral damage” being two of the most disgraceful words being used in conflicts, believe that if this were the case, the war mongers wouldn’t commit to it because they are greedy cowards and profiteers.

As always, thanks for the post, Nirek.

Peace.

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

Kalima, one of my very early, and enduring, childhood memories is an absolute abhorrence of violence in any form — although I no longer remember how young I was when it dawned on me countries’ leaders should be compelled to apply the method of conflict resolution you recommended.

I can only conclude we must be twins and were separated at birth!

Kalima
Admin

Hello NoMan. It’s a small world isn’t it? Miles apart and in different parts of the world as children we thought the same thing. I’m not a twin but my mother was, so who knows? 😉

If we could only channel this thinking to more children across this planet, maybe one day there could be peace.

Take care.

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

It really is a small world, Kalima, and if
even a fraction of the energy misspent in teaching children to distrust each other
and the world at large were expended to
foster mutual understanding and
cooperation, we would be closer to our
goal of peace.

But as it’s still better to light a candle
than curse the darkness, we do what we
can and must to dispel ignorance and
hatred. And it’s not unreasonable to hope
— even if we’re not here to see the end
result — our efforts will someday bear
blessed fruit.

It’s good to talk with you again — and
take care, too.

SueInCa
Member

Nirek

I developed my disdain for war in High School. Like you, I saw people I knew being drafted to fight for a war that did not make sense to me then and not now. I wrote a term paper in my Junior year on the subject and did a tremendous amount of research for that paper. It was then that I realized my hunches(up to that time) about that war being a disaster, were justified by the research I uncovered. I am not against just unjust wars, but all war and I agree we need to talk peace, first, always.

I have read that rubber was a major reason for going into, and staying in, Vietnam. After hearing that, it made me wonder if the use of Napalm/Agent Orange was really a move to cover up any harvesting we might have been doing with rubber plants. Some might say that is a conspiracy theory but why would any country think the best way to “destroy” the enemy was with Napalm? Eisenhower put the first 1200 advisers into Vietnam and I wonder if his MIC speech was a warning to us for truths and details he could not divulge?

W all have learned a great deal about reasons for going to war in this modern age and the only ones who really like it are the MIC that Eisenhower warned us about. Vietnam was eye opening for me but Iraq solidified my knowledge that the MIC is the only entity that prospers from war.

sillylittleme
Member

In the original draft of [President Eisenhower’s] speech, it was “military-industrial-congressional complex.” And the “congressional” part was taken out because the president felt that he’d had excellent relations with a Democratic Congress and didn’t want to get into name-calling on his way out. – Susan Eisenhower

She was on Bill Maher Episode 161, July 24, 2009

SueInCa
Member

Either way Congress is beholden to the MIC at this point in time so if he did the speech today, it would cover both sides. I am sure it was the same back then, just no so overt because research of the type done today was manual. We are able to uncover a lot more these days with technology. I kind of wonder, though, if people back then even were curious about his statement, except in passing. Not so long ago, there was the “speech” from Jimmy Carter that did not really have an impact until a couple decades later.

sillylittleme
Member

Had we heeded both Ike and Carter, what a very different world we’d live in today…

SueInCa
Member

Isn’t that the truth but we, and I don’t mean you or I, are still doing that as Americans. Some people cannot deal with change and in this world there is constant change but America, right now, is experiencing a time similar to the late 1800’s when the robber barons had control. Perhaps soon, the rest of America will see what is going on and act. I do like being in the group that can see clearly what is going on, though, don’t you?

sillylittleme
Member

Yes and no. Yes, because at least I can see what is happening and accept the reality of it. No, because it is an uphill battle trying to get everyone else on board.

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

Amen, Nirek. You posted this yesterday, June 27, and it happens I’ve just read it in the early evening of June 28, 2014 — 100 years to the day the unhinged Serbian terrorist Gavrilo Princip fired the two shots that quickly, insanely, and inexorably touched off World War One.

The grim and profound lessons the survivors of World War One and their descendants should have learned were never fully taken to heart: the wars provoked by Princip’s equally mad spiritual heirs in Sarajevo again and then in Kosovo were horrific reminders of that.

Yet as Nirek has explained with such insight and clarity, if we allegedly “human” beings are ever to stop senseless destruction and killing of each other for little or no good reason, we must learn to go to war — as we did in World War Two — not as a wonderful and exciting first choice, but as a last resort.

And there can be no better day to think about this than this tragic 100th anniversary of the beginning of the so-called “War to end all Wars.” If only it had been….

monicaangela
Member

@Sillylittleme

Thank you for that information on Walt Disney, I really was unaware of it. I imagine I will have to look into it. It appears that most wealthy people in this nation are less patriotic than those who are least allowed to enjoy the bounty of this country. I will make a mental note to explore the subject of Disney and the Nazis, and hopefully some time in the future we can have another conversation regarding this matter.

monicaangela
Member

“How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of Negroes?” Samuel Johnson, the great English writer and dictionary maker, posed this question in 1775. He was among the first, but certainly not the last, to contrast the noble aims of the American Revolution with the presence of 450,000 enslaved African Americans in the 13 colonies. Slavery was practiced in every colony in 1775, but it was crucial to the economy and social structure from the Chesapeake region south to Georgia. Slave labor produced the great export crops of the South-tobacco, rice, indigo, and naval stores. Bringing slaves from Africa and the West Indies had made settlement of the New World possible and highly profitable. Who could predict what breaking away from the British Empire might mean for black people in America?

Maybe it could not be predicted what breaking away from the British Empire would mean for African Americans in America, but those who fought in the Revolutionary War, slave holders and non-slave holders realized what the elimination of slavery would mean for them.

The British governor of Virginia, Lord Dunmore, quickly saw the vulnerability of the South’s slaveholders. In November 1775, he issued a proclamation promising freedom to any slave of a rebel who could make it to the British lines. Dunmore organized an “Ethiopian” brigade of about 300 African Americans, who saw action at the Battle of Great Bridge (December 9, 1775). Dunmore and the British were soon expelled from Virginia, but the prospect of armed former slaves fighting alongside the British must have struck fear into plantation masters across the South.

Yes, all of this was going on during the revolutionary war, and yes, slavery played a great part in the reason why the colonies rose up against the British, not just taxes, and not just the East India company and the attempt by the British government to bail them out, and not the many other occurrences that strung together caused the the colonist to revolt, NO, it was all about profit that could not be taken away by the British, and much of the profit in America at the time depended on SLAVERY.

monicaangela
Member

War is the life blood of this nation, it has been since the counter revolution of 1776, the revolution we will be celebrating, some of us, on July 4th. why do I call it the counter revolution? Let me allow Gerald Horne, professor of history and African American studies at the University of Houston to explain it:

GERALD HORNE: We should understand that July 4th, 1776, in many ways, represents a counterrevolution. That is to say that what helped to prompt July 4th, 1776, was the perception among European settlers on the North American mainland that London was moving rapidly towards abolition. This perception was prompted by Somerset’s case, a case decided in London in June 1772 which seemed to suggest that abolition, which not only was going to be ratified in London itself, was going to cross the Atlantic and basically sweep through the mainland, thereby jeopardizing numerous fortunes, not only based upon slavery, but the slave trade. That’s the short answer.

Want to know more? Find out here: http://www.democracynow.org/2014/6/27/counter_revolution_of_1776_was_us

Every war in this nation has been fought because of greed, from inception to the Afghanistan/Iraq wars, and every war in between, before and after. That is why I detest war, and yes, I too am a veteran, not drafted, a volunteer. I volunteered not to fight for this country, but to help those that like you, were drafted, or not enlightened enough to realize the true purpose of war. Did I know as much then as I do now, no, but I had a general idea then as a 19 year old, I stayed 3 years and left even more convinced that my suspicions were true regarding this nation and war. As General Smedley Butler says, “War is a Racket.” All wars are nothing more than the greedy trying to feed their insatiable appetite.

Harleigh
Member
Harleigh

Monicaangela Wait just a dang minute! You said ‘The Nazis broke unions, lowered wages, abolished overtime pay, decreased business taxes and increased business subsidies. Their program bears a strong resemblance to the Republican agenda in this country.’ I personally fail to see the difference except for their names.

monicaangela
Member

Personally, I believe the names have been changed only to protect the guilty in this case. 🙂 You know the CIA hired many Nazis after World War II….could we be seeing some of their descendants in the GOP….I wonder….LOL!!!

SueInCa
Member

That is not so far fetched as you might think, Monica. If you get a chance, read this article I wrote back in 2012 and tell me what you think.

http://planetpov.com/2012/07/09/figuring-out-the-far-right-republicans/

monicaangela
Member

Hello SueInCa,

That article should be re-posted today!! What an excellent comparison of ideology that definitely does fit with the beliefs of the the Nazis during World War II. My dad, may he rest in peace, would often laughingly state that one politician or another in the congress was a descendant of the Nazis and probably had relatives that served the Third Reich. He would laugh when he stated this what he considered a fact so that we, his children would not run with the idea and get into trouble because of his ideology. I being inquisitive to say the least have since I was a teen studied everything I could to try to make the connection. The tracks have been well covered, but if you search, you can find connections. I often wonder why the Anti-Defamation League has never tried to make a lot of these connections public. I know they must have more information than I can gain access to.

Thank you for directing me to that article, I am so happy there are people like you who try to follow the facts no matter where they lead. Your article IMHO is non partisan, and does make the case. Much of the republican platform and ideology appears to be based upon that of Hitler and the third Reich.

To show you how complicit and untruthful those in this nation were about the war and during the war, this little known fact still boggles my mind: In late June, 1999, California’s Huntington Library revealed it had Hitler’s infamous Nuremburg Racial Laws. Yet where was the document for 54 years? In Bloodlines, author Tony Platt explodes the story of General Patton blazing into Nuremburg and finding the papers in a safe. Platt found it was Martin Dannenberg, a Jewish man, who actually unearthed the document.
At age 90, Dannenberg reported that his three-man counter-intelligence team found it in Eichstatt, not Nuremburg, then gave it to Patton’s intelligence chief with the understanding it would be sent to Supreme Headquarters, Allied Expeditionary Force. Instead, it wound up in Patton’s trophy case, then into Huntington’s vault. Platt believes it was not Patton’s antiSemitism but his desire for glory and loot that led him to grab the document. Subsequently, it was sent to the Skirball Cultural Center in Los Angeles, where the photo of Patton has been replaced in their exhibition with one of a young Dannenberg. And yet there are those who honor and revere Patton to this day..it must cost billions to keep the populace in this country as uneducated as those in power seem to want us to be.

sillylittleme
Member

In all deference to the wise professor, I’m not sure a case could be made that the farmers of Lexington and Concord were aware of abolition. While it may have been on the radar, it wasn’t what drove Sam Adams to organize the original tea party. MA was under siege and the residents were only too aware of the daily presence of the redcoats.

One other flaw in that theory is that the slave holding states to the south had to be cajoled into accepting revolution. And they are seemingly still fighting abolition. It was of course the southern states that put a caveat on freedom for all.

In Abigail Adams’ letters to her husband on the eve of the signing of the Declaration, she queried whether women and non-white landowners would be considered free. Sadly John had to report back that the answer was no.

Sorry to burst his bubble, but that’s all he would have to do is visit the Boston area to know that his theory is not steeped in reality.

monicaangela
Member

I know you believe what you are saying is correct, but a bit more searching into the abolitionist movement and the revolutionary war will prove what the wise professor” is saying.
Slavery had existed in America from the discovery and exploration period, and America’s economy had become dependent upon it. The culture had reconciled itself to acceptance of the practice long before our nation’s founders began to articulate their arguments concerning abolition. The battle that our forefathers put forth can and should be likened to an underdog stepping into the boxing ring against an unbeaten world champion. There is no shame in putting up a fight against such a formidable foe and going toe-to-toe for fifteen rounds and losing. What would have been shameful would have been to have seen the injustice of slavery and done nothing at all. If that were the case, perhaps I would agree that our Founding Fathers were bigots and hypocrites as has been bantered around in our society today. They were not. They put up a monumental fight to end the evils of slavery; but unlike the ease with which David’s stone killed Goliath, this battle took the lives of hundreds of thousands of men before an entire nation that had become hopelessly dependent on slavery would require much more than a small stone but with a willing heart and a trusty slingshot. The facts are crystal clear on this issue. Our Founding Fathers began the movement that eventually destroyed the practice of slavery. These were brave and extraordinary men who took it upon themselves to change the face of what America was to become. The arguments that they made and the accomplishments they rendered set the stand for what was to principally define our Nation.

It is important to note that slavery existed throughout the colonies, without restraint, prior to the Revolution. In the north, the antislavery movement began to gain momentum as early as 1773. In Rhode Island, Reverend Samuel Hopkins, became the leader of the antislavery movement. He utilized his position as minister of the First Congregational Church of Newport to preach against the evils of slavery. Reverend Hopkins took the issue to another level by going door-to-door amidst church members and neighbors and pleaded for the release of their slaves. In Philadelphia, with the arrival of Thomas Paine, the antislavery movement took another leap forward as Paine’s first tract entitled “African Slavery in America” was published. Paine’s pamphlet begins with “That some desperate wretches should be willing to steal and enslave men by violence and murder for gain is rather lamentable than strange. But that many civilized, nay, Christianized people should approve, and be concerned in the savage practice, is surprising.”

The abolitionist movement in Philadelphia also benefited from the work of Quaker printer Anthony Benezet who printed numerous antislavery tracts. His good friend, signer of the Declaration of Independence, and later Surgeon General of the Continental Army, Dr. Benjamin Rush, along with other concerned Philadelphians, founded the “Society for the Relief of Free Negroes Unlawfully Held in Bondage.”

In Virginia, Patrick Henry was cut to the heart after reading the antislavery tracts written by Benezet. Mr. Henry, himself a Christian man and a slave owner, declared that he could not justify the institution of slavery as it was, “repugnant to humanity…inconsistent with the Bible, and contrary to the principles of liberty.”

The efforts of these early abolitionists began to pay huge dividends even before the Revolution began. In 1774, the Delegates to the First Continental Congress pledged to stop the importation of slaves to America. The Founding Fathers present at the First Continental Congress included:

John Adams …………………………………. Massachusetts

Samuel Adams ……………………………… Massachusetts

John Dickinson ……………………………… Pennsylvania

Joseph Galloway …………………………… Pennsylvania

Patrick Henry ……………………………….. Virginia

John Jay ………………………………………. New York

Richard Henry Lee ………………………… Virginia

Phillip Livingston ……………………………. New York

Thomas Mifflin ………………………………. Pennsylvania

Peyton Randolph …………………………… Virginia

Roger Sherman ……………………………… Connecticut

Charles Thompson …………………………. Pennsylvania

George Washington ……………………….. Virginia

In the same year, 1774 Reverend Hopkins and the Congregational Church accomplished their objective and abolished slavery in Rhode Island.

In 1777, Pennsylvania passed its first law for the gradual emancipation and made appropriation for full emancipation by 1780. Both of these colonies dealt with slavery before the Revolutionary War had even been decided.

After the conclusion of the war, during the 1780’s Connecticut outlawed slavery with New York abolishing it in 1799 and New Jersey in 1804.

As the abolitionist movement was gaining momentum in the northern states, it was having a strong effect on the southern states as well. Delaware, Maryland, North Carolina and Virginia all passed laws making it easier for slave owners to emancipate their slaves.

Once the Constitution of the United States was in place, the Federal Government in 1787 passed the Northwest Ordinance outlawing the institution of slavery where many of the new states would be formed. The Founding Fathers passed this law and it was to this law that Abraham Lincoln referred throughout his Presidency.

Harleigh
Member
Harleigh

Monicaangela where do you come up with all this facty truthy stuff about almost any subject? Are you maybe really a computer or some think-tank or university genius? seriously. I know we’ve chatted over the years as old HP fans but here you can really come out. You’re much better than 200 characters! I’m still going to be a bagger squishing snarkerer for jebus! and a fan of you also too.

monicaangela
Member

Thank you Harleigh, your accolades are truly appreciated. I am just another blogger, enjoying conversation with others here at the Planet. I try very hard to research my opinion before I give it. I am not always correct, but I love defending what I write, I’ve noticed you to operate in the same manner. 🙂 It’s good to see you here, and I too am a fan of yours.

sillylittleme
Member

Perhaps I put it too simplistically. The original draft of the Declaration HAD freed the slaves. When the final draft was signed it did not. Still, I don’t think that what was going on in Boston in the early 1770s, had anything to do with the issue of abolition. The state was surrounded by British ships. And the people were being kept from maintaining independent commerce.

Maybe what was happening in Philly wasn’t the same as what was happening in Boston, Either way, I don’t think that the farmers who died on the small green in Lexington center were thinking about the wrongness of slavery when they expired.

monicaangela
Member

A big part of that independent commerce was the slave trade. Slavery was the backbone that allowed the rest of the “commerce” to be possible and profitable. As in every war, the soldiers all have their idea as to why they are fighting and what they are fighting for. It is those that stand to profit from the war that know how to put the spin on the conversation to make it appear as though the war is about something other than what it is. Just look at what happened in Iraq. I suppose you believe every soldier that went to that war knew they were going to steal the oil of the Iraqi’s and protect it for the international corporations. No, they bought the spin and believed they were protecting this nation.

KillgoreTrout
Member

Hey Monica, I believe the Revolutionary War and the Iraq War are miles apart, in comparison.

In the Revolutionary War, as I have no doubt you are well aware of, was about independence from Britain and the establishment of our own nation.

Sure, the 13 colonies did benefit from slavery, but I think that issue was not on people’s minds at the time of their involvement in that war.

I don’t think it was really on the minds of the Constitutional Congress either, except for fudiciary concerns.

sillylittleme
Member

While I know that slavery existed nominally in MA prior to their full emancipation in the 1780s, the African population in MA was largely free. I still don’t think that abolition was the driving force. Unless you are implying that the original tea party was a farce and that Sam Adams was more concerned about that than the city being under siege. The stories that have been written in MA regarding the behavior of the redcoats to the farmers was what drove them to drive them out of Lexington and Concord. If that event hadn’t happened, would we have had a revolution? I don’t know if we’ll ever have an answer to that. Regardless, GA and I can’t remember which other southern state strongly objected to having that written into the Declaration and so it was removed. Oh and Hancock had inherited slave ships from his adoptive father, I don’t know if he ever took a position on it publicly.

sillylittleme
Member

Peace is cheap and war is costly.
With peace, there is happiness and a feeling of security. People don’t fear the stranger, because they see themselves as the stranger to the other. With peace there is no destruction, so no need for reconstruction. With peace there can be endless prosperity and constant renewal of resources.

With war, there is sadness and a fear that security is not possible. People fear the other, because they can’t see themselves as a stranger in someone else’s eyes. With war there is destruction, so eventually a need for construction and reconstruction. With war there is limited prosperity, because of the high use of limited resources crammed into a limited period of time.

Having never had to serve, as I was 10 when Vietnam ended, I do know that those who make their living in the MIC are slowly realizing that we have bigger fish to fry. And perpetual war will end when humanity acknowledges that we all go down (except for perhaps the pygmys off the coast of Indonesia) if we don’t fix our environment.