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Nirek On June - 27 - 2014

marines - war

Yes I am a veteran of the Vietnam War. My Dad was a career Army veteran of both the WWII and Korean War. I lived as a dependent almost 19 years and saw first hand that I did not want to be in the Army. Unfortunately I was drafted when I was 21 and served my two years. I spent most of 1969 in Vietnam against my will. I could have gone to Canada when I got my first draft notice, but  could not disgrace my Dad’s good name. More of that can be read from my first article.


Going to war without really wanting to is not easy.  I was against the war but out of respect for my Father I had to “do my duty to my country”.  I did my two years and got out alive.

I don’t believe we should commit our military to war without first giving a lot of thought and research into why we should or shouldn’t put them in harm’s way. I believe we did that the case of WWII. The rest of our wars, not so much. In fact we got into the last two as knee jerk reactions.

How much blood and treasure have we wasted on wars? What if we had not gone into those wars and had put the trillions of dollars into our country and its infrastructure and alternative “green” energy? Would we have a better economy? Would our domestic programs have been funded? Would we have fully funded the VA and taken care of the veterans who were damaged physically or mentally? Would some of the people who lost their lives have found a cure for cancer, a better way to collect solar energy, or done something wonderful for humankind?

As always I invite your response, questions, and insights. Let’s have a conversation about peace instead of war.

Written by Nirek

Proud progressive Vietnam Vet against WAR! Can't stomach chickenhawks.

96 Responses so far.

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  1. Nirek--
    Thanks for the article.

    The reason the US has felt safe about committing troops since Reagan is that we did away with the draft in the 70’s and substituted a ‘poverty draft’. As long as middle-class kids weren’t coming home in body bags, the political pressure to justify military action was pretty muted. I’m given to understand that some 40% of the people we deployed during the Gulf War have qualified for disability as a result of exposure to toxins like depleted uranium and problems with the anti-nerve gas inoculations given out without proper testing. If that toll had been spread out a bit more, I think there’d be far more widespread protest against military adventures.

  2. Mojave Green says:

    Nirek, I’m a recent arrival here and your little post is the first one that’s made a lot of sense to me. Thank you for that, cause I was already considering leaving because, and I haven’t really read all that many posts, but a couple of them, to me, were so far from reality that I was beginning to think I’d wandered into a cult headquarters. Ya see, I’m a U.S. citizen who’s been out of the country for more than a decade, and the information the U.S. is fed, by a media so corrupted that a ‘project’, as stated;

    “We’ll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false.” And that comes directly from the mouth of the CIA director, Bill Casey, in 1981.

    The recent gutting of something called the ‘Smith-Mundt Act’, which got a lot of coverage worldwide, yet in my admittedly limited scanning any U.S. corporate ‘news media'(sic) I’d think the NYT having to come out and admit Photoshopping pictures peddling the Ukraine ‘Big Lie’ that is but a phase in the build up to World War 3. The truth is the exact opposite of what most all citizens of the U.S. are literally being ‘programmed’. I get off on tangents, but if you want to scare yourself, search ‘tv mind control’. Out of the 93 million hits I got on that (using StartPage), find a source you have some trust in, and find out that not only do gringos watch more television than anyone else on Earth, most of them believe some of what they’re told……..and then it get’s really bad. If you feel up to a clear, factual and historically documented horror story I’d much appreciate your opinion of it. I missed Vietnam by only months and I’m sorry you didn’t. And all the more reason you should watch ‘All Wars Are Bankers Wars’ at the following link. Pura vida

    • confuseddemocrat says:

      You are correct Mojave in your assessment. I knew we were in trouble and the independent press was a myth when I saw david gregory “mock rapping” with Karl Rove.

      First it was racially offensive and second it showed how cozy these guys had become. It said that objectivity was gone.

      Third, when CBS fired Dan Rather (who was deliberately set up by the bushies) but kept Lara Logan who essentially turned 60 minutes into a semi propaganda arm of the GOP Benghazi witch hunt, I realize that the media had lost its soul.

      And my suspicions about the media have been subsequently confirmed by Chuck Todd who stated his job as a journalist was not to ascertain whether politicians tell the truth.

      The fourth estate no longer exists.

      • Mojave Green says:

        Thanks for an encouraging word. You have no idea how little it takes me to grab for any hope I see or read. Your final sentence says it all, because out here in what I call ‘the real world’, scanning what passes for ‘press’ in the U.S. could be coming from a different planet, if you didn’t know different. I wonder if the U.S. general stating that when training ISIS in Jordan, he knew some of them were given U.S. passports, got any ‘press’ coverage in the U.S.? And forgive my long rambling style of ranting, but I type fast and sometimes lose track of what my hands are doing, while my mind is racing.

        • MG, do you really think that in today’s “information age,” with computers and the world wide web, that Americans are only limited to what our corporate controlled media spews on a daily basis? Do you think there are no Americans, besides yourself that don’t have friends and family living and working in many different countries around the world?

          You describe the “real,” world as only being outside the US? Seriously?

          Are there people in America who let themselves be spoon fed by our corporate media? Of course there are, but there are a great many of us who take the time and expend the energy to look beyond the talking heads and their greed based agendas.

    • Nirek says:

      Welcome to the Planet Mojave Green. Please don’ leave until you have read some more. We are really a good bunch of people here. We do not always agree about everything but we are civil with each other.

      If you like to read some more of my stuff here is a link to my first article.


      I was drafted and this is about my life . Short but to the point.

    • Kalima says:

      Which posts exactly are you referring too when you say, this?

      Nirek, I’m a recent arrival here and your little post is the first one that’s made a lot of sense to me. Thank you for that, cause I was already considering leaving because, and I haven’t really read all that many posts, but a couple of them, to me, were so far from reality that I was beginning to think I’d wandered into a cult headquarters.

      The members who write the posts here are neither misinformed nor cult members, and many of the posts are either tongue-in-cheek, or obvious parody, so to insult the work of other members here is not appreciated.

      Our members are some of the most informed people on the web, so please show them some respect. Thanks.

      • Mojave Green says:

        I wish I could tell you that, but as I said, I’m new here. And on top of that, I have what anyone would call a ‘unique outlook’, as I’m generally surrounded by a lot of different people and cultures, and sometimes it changes daily. And I’m half insane from watching the country of my birth get flushed down the toilet. And apparently so ‘unique’ that I find some people’s outlook on ‘facts’ (those that are interspersed with propaganda bordering on actual mind control) (look into the effects of television on the human brain, just for starters) that I don’t want to ‘insult’ people that I think might actually be ill……and just not know it. I’m dead serious, and I’m trying to put it all in decent order (I tend to run on and on, maybe you’ve noticed) I’m just unaware exactly how much of it’s ‘willful’ ignorance and how much is heaped on the U.S. public to the breaking point, that makes them beyond any definition of ‘willful’. I’m closing on 60 years old and have been carefully studying and taking part, to a degree, in the impending collapse that’ll make the worst worst ‘global warming’ scenario seem like a Sunday picnic by comparison. And I’m still stupid enough to be optimistic against all available evidence and contrary to all of world history, so I gotta be at least a little diplomatic in getting people to face a truth that’s staring them right in the face and right in public. The video I posted is entirely factual (there’s a bit of rhetoric, not much, in it that I won’t back up……maybe) And how would you suggest getting people to realize that all this Democrat/Republican charade, the one party that’s really named the ‘Lesser Evil’ party. And your corporate swill is so overwhelmingly massive………and I’m not what you’d call the most ‘patient’ person on Earth. Sometimes I even manage to come off as an asshole to those in deepest denial. A lot of Huff Compost folks around it seems (I sometimes managed to get 5% of my comments there posted) and they NEVER printed anything that mentioned the unrepentant Nazi collaborator, ‘backer’ of it, or the item that I saw on two continents in newspapers, the one about how HP and Atlantic magazine were posting blogs written by a known CIA ‘asset’, without informing their readers of that information. Nor anything documenting two psychopaths that have been involved with both parties for decades…..one wanted for war crimes, even though the ‘President’ last year hung a ‘Medal of Freedom’ (I think that’s what they called it) around his neck. See what I mean about running on and on? I finally find a place that actually posts my scrawlings and I’m speechless. It’d be a big help if you watch the video I included and give me your opinion. And watch it knowing that the U.S. population constitutes 4% of global population but;
        1. takes more than 50% of ALL produced pharmacuticals
        2. has 25% of the worlds prison population
        3. on average, spend 34 hours a week staring at a TV, a world record
        4. most obese people on Earth
        5 most single person households
        6. highest divorce rate by a wide margin
        7. have 50% of all lawyers on planet Earth
        8. produces almost 90% of all pornography
        9. highest teen pregnancy rate
        10. the highest death by child abuse
        11. since 2001 has shipped more than 56,000 factories overseas, 75% of them employed more than 500 people, and Obama’s secret TPP negotiations, secret even from the Congress is described as “NAFTA on steroids”
        12. 29% of U.S. citizens think an ‘armed revolt’ will be necessary in the near future
        13. Spends more on the military than the next highest 12 combined
        14. 8.5 TRILLION dollars unaccounted for by pentagon since 1998
        15 a military veteran commits suicide 22 times a day
        16. the government ‘borrows’ $40,000 a second…..24/7

        I think you see where I’m going with this, huh? Sorry, but if I don’t laugh occasionally I’d be crying every waking hour. And the age old ‘divide and conquer’ game they got people believing has everyone pointing at someone else thinking “it’s all their fault”. I’m really sorry, but this stuff get’s me excited (not in a good way). I’m saying it’s clear from many perspectives that those that own and operate the U.S. are leading us towards World War 3. Read any of Brzezinski or Kissingers books before you say “no way!” And, as a favor to a total stranger, and to yourself and the world, let me know what you think of ‘All Wars are Bankers Wars’, because the guy does put the biggest part of the puzzle together for you. And whenever I say ‘you’, I don’t mean you personally (unless I specify otherwise) The ‘you’ is everyone, including me (to a small extent)

        I’m going to see if I can figure out how to put a picture in this reply. If it works it’ll be one or two of the ‘no hesitation’ targets that the treasonous ‘DHS’ spent two million dollars on, to train the FDA, IRS, USDA and many other agencies that have bought tens of thousands of submachine guns to use that now more than two billion rounds of hollow point (illegal in war) bullets on. Even if you think I’m nuts, wait till after you’ve seen the video to decide for sure. All this stuff I’m ranting about is in the news everywhere (almost), all the time. Except in the U.S.


        • Kalima says:

          Then instead of insulting others here after reading just a few posts, why don’t you write a post with your pov and give others a chance to read, agree or disagree with you? I can assure you that when they disagree they will be civil because that’s how we run The Planet for the last five years.

          If you think you can do better, then please show us. We also like to have opinions backed up with facts and not just a video, so links are very important. If I were you I would give it a go.

          You can find how to write a post in our FAQ, or the basics are also written here.


          For your information I’m European, don’t live in the U.S. and probably know more about that “real” world out there than you do. I hardly watch any tv, and never during the day. I will never swallow a news story until I’ve researched it from many different reliable sources so I can form my own opinion.

  3. confuseddemocrat says:

    PS. has anyone seen John McCain? He seems to have disappeared after the release of the so-called “ISIS” photographs

  4. confuseddemocrat says:

    Hi Nirek, I, like you, am always trying to figure out what is the benefit for those who are pushing for these continuous interventions.

    Here is my list:

    1) Oil and gas guys backing the GOP get to make more money because conflicts in the ME increases gas and fuel prices

    2) Military industry get more orders for armaments

    3) security industry (private contractors) get more contracts

    4) Those who wish to cut social programs use the looming budget deficits created by these interventions as the excuse for destroying the safety net

    5) wars and threats of terrorism (created by these wars) keep Americans fearful and thus more likely to trust in the “war” party also known as the modern gop

    • Nirek says:

      Confused, How about the “news” channels ? They do not report the news anymore but the get big ratings with their false stories and their politicians to give their lies air.

      • confuseddemocrat says:

        Yes, the press also makes money off of wars and rumors of wars. In addition, Those who own the media businesses have vested interests in seeing the social safety net destroyed, securing low taxes for the upper 1%; hence the support of the gop either tacitly or overtly is right up their alley.

  5. monicaangela says:


    No, I did not read any of the comments, I will now that you have mentioned them. Yes, I did know KQuark and Bito, we were friends and fans over at HP for quite some time. I learned a lot from them and yes, they were very wise. They were two of the people I missed most when I left HP. They both of them invited me to come to PlanetPOV, along with AdLib. I wish I had taken them up on their invitation a lot sooner than I did.

    • Nirek says:

      I’m glad you knew them, Monica. You are better for having known them just as I am. I also knew them at HP like I did you. I respect my friends here for how they can be civil even when we disagree on something. The Planet is where I love to go for conversation, camaraderie, and information.


      • monicaangela says:

        Make that two of us when it comes to loving the atmosphere here at the Planet. You my friend a a big part of what makes this such a wonderful place to visit. Thank you for all you do here. 🙂

  6. monicaangela says:


    In the case of my comparison of the Iraq War and the Revolutionary war, I did it just to emphasize the fact that both wars were about enrichment of those that felt the need to take the country to war. First against the British, yes for independence, but also for self rule regarding commerce…profit, and I don’t have to explain what the Iraq war was all about, but you’ll notice the same principle involved there as well…Corporate Greed.

  7. monicaangela says:


    You are correct, I did misspell Martin Niemöller’s name. I hate to admit it, but I too am prone to typos. Sorry about that. 😉 Thank you. 🙂

    • NoManIsAnIsland says:

      You’re welcome, monicaangela, and there’s no need to apologize! I KNEW it was merely a slip of the finger; and as I wrote, I corrected it only for anyone (not likely a regular poster on PlanetPOV) who wasn’t familiar with Niemöller.

      Although I’ve never maid typing misteaks, I can emphasize with your very miner flailing! 😉

      You’re still tops in my book for your far-ranging knowledge and insights (with which I agree far more often than not) and your diligent and accurate research. In my eyes you are, in the words of Mrs. Malaprop, my great ventor, “the very pineapple of perfection!”

      O.K., my secret can’t be swept any longer, as by now you must have knotted my great ease in depressing the English language and have guessed how I detained it!

      Yes, yes, I’m extremely shroud to remit I amended Mrs. Malaprop’s School of Diction and Electrocution. And when I told her my guiding precipice of life was “Discretion is the better part of velour,” she desisted that I graduate summa cum loudly!

      That’s my story, and I’m ticking to it. 🙂

      • monicaangela says:

        LOL !!!! That response is genius in my opinion. Completely filled with typos, yet somehow easily deciphered. I laughed all the way through, but did not misunderstand a single word. Thank you for letting me off the hook where my error was concerned, and though I appreciate what you just did, I do realize how important it was to make the correction. Let me just extend my gratitude with the following quotes, they say what I feel much better than I ever could express it:

        Good friends care for each other. Close friends understand each other, But true friends stay forever..beyond words, beyond distance, beyond time…!

        I won’t promise to be your friend forever, because I won’t live that long. But let me be your friend as long as I live. 🙂

        • NoManIsAnIsland says:

          Monicaangela, I’m used to being damned
          with faint praise and even praised with
          faint damns, but you’ve just taken the cake!

          I really don’t see what I’ve done to reserve
          your great condiments, but you had me
          with “…But true friends stay forever….”
          and I’ll be honored to be YOUR friend, too,
          as long as I live.

          I was tempted to say “You’ve touched my
          hart,” but you’ve really touched my heart. 🙂

          • monicaangela says:

            Aww, I feel a song coming on:

            🙂 😉 🙂 😉

            • NoManIsAnIsland says:

              “Aww” is right, monicaangela,
              and I couldn’t have said it

              I haven’t heard Ethel Mermaid
              in years, and hearing this song
              again is the perfect way to
              inaugurate our own mutual
              admiration society:):):):)!!!!

      • Nirek says:

        NoMan, you had me laughing out loud.
        Remember Norm Crosby? He would massacre words. He was so funny.

      • sillylittleme says:

        Simply put: brilliant.

  8. Kalima says:

    I was told that as a child I hated violence of any kind, and that once I could understand the ins and ours of wars, I suggested that the leaders of those countries who wanted armed combat, should be locked together in one large room, with all the fire power available to either talk it through, or fight it out amongst themselves.

    I still feel the same way and think the deaths of innocents and their labelling as “collateral damage” being two of the most disgraceful words being used in conflicts, believe that if this were the case, the war mongers wouldn’t commit to it because they are greedy cowards and profiteers.

    As always, thanks for the post, Nirek.


    • NoManIsAnIsland says:

      Kalima, one of my very early, and enduring, childhood memories is an absolute abhorrence of violence in any form — although I no longer remember how young I was when it dawned on me countries’ leaders should be compelled to apply the method of conflict resolution you recommended.

      I can only conclude we must be twins and were separated at birth!

      • Nirek says:

        NoMan, if you and Kalima are twins I love you both. Because I feel the same way.

      • Kalima says:

        Hello NoMan. It’s a small world isn’t it? Miles apart and in different parts of the world as children we thought the same thing. I’m not a twin but my mother was, so who knows? 😉

        If we could only channel this thinking to more children across this planet, maybe one day there could be peace.

        Take care.

        • NoManIsAnIsland says:

          It really is a small world, Kalima, and if
          even a fraction of the energy misspent in teaching children to distrust each other
          and the world at large were expended to
          foster mutual understanding and
          cooperation, we would be closer to our
          goal of peace.

          But as it’s still better to light a candle
          than curse the darkness, we do what we
          can and must to dispel ignorance and
          hatred. And it’s not unreasonable to hope
          — even if we’re not here to see the end
          result — our efforts will someday bear
          blessed fruit.

          It’s good to talk with you again — and
          take care, too.

    • Nirek says:

      Kalima, I was told the same but it was with boxing gloves and let them either talk it out or fight it out. Just the leaders. Think of the lives saved!
      Peace to you and yours, too.

      • Kalima says:

        Hello Nirek. When I said it to my grandmother, “fire power” to me meant twigs, nuts that had fallen off the trees in the forest opposite my home, and pillows because of all the pillow fights I had had with my cousins, all boys.

        I have always disliked guns or weapons that kill or maim both humans and animals. Will still cry like a baby when I see children and animals being abused. Some things never change thank goodness.


  9. SueInCa says:


    I developed my disdain for war in High School. Like you, I saw people I knew being drafted to fight for a war that did not make sense to me then and not now. I wrote a term paper in my Junior year on the subject and did a tremendous amount of research for that paper. It was then that I realized my hunches(up to that time) about that war being a disaster, were justified by the research I uncovered. I am not against just unjust wars, but all war and I agree we need to talk peace, first, always.

    I have read that rubber was a major reason for going into, and staying in, Vietnam. After hearing that, it made me wonder if the use of Napalm/Agent Orange was really a move to cover up any harvesting we might have been doing with rubber plants. Some might say that is a conspiracy theory but why would any country think the best way to “destroy” the enemy was with Napalm? Eisenhower put the first 1200 advisers into Vietnam and I wonder if his MIC speech was a warning to us for truths and details he could not divulge?

    W all have learned a great deal about reasons for going to war in this modern age and the only ones who really like it are the MIC that Eisenhower warned us about. Vietnam was eye opening for me but Iraq solidified my knowledge that the MIC is the only entity that prospers from war.

    • Nirek says:

      Sue, I saw first hand what Napalm did. Even though we “didn’t use it” (bull)
      And I am suffering the results of Agent Orange right now.
      And we wonder why other countries don’t like us.

      Peace, my friend.

      • SueInCa says:

        For me there is only peace, Nirek. I simply cannot get angry at war anymore because I cannot change it. People who deal in war are a different breed and I simply do not understand them. I can dislike war and I can speak out against it at every chance but getting angry only hurts me. I have a clear conscience, as I am sure you do as well, my friend. Peace back to you.

    • sillylittleme says:

      In the original draft of [President Eisenhower’s] speech, it was “military-industrial-congressional complex.” And the “congressional” part was taken out because the president felt that he’d had excellent relations with a Democratic Congress and didn’t want to get into name-calling on his way out. – Susan Eisenhower

      She was on Bill Maher Episode 161, July 24, 2009

      • SueInCa says:

        Either way Congress is beholden to the MIC at this point in time so if he did the speech today, it would cover both sides. I am sure it was the same back then, just no so overt because research of the type done today was manual. We are able to uncover a lot more these days with technology. I kind of wonder, though, if people back then even were curious about his statement, except in passing. Not so long ago, there was the “speech” from Jimmy Carter that did not really have an impact until a couple decades later.

        • sillylittleme says:

          Had we heeded both Ike and Carter, what a very different world we’d live in today…

          • Nirek says:

            SLM, you said a mouthful! Ike warned us and Carter had started with the solar stuff. If only we had followed their advice we would not be in the mess we are in now.

          • SueInCa says:

            Isn’t that the truth but we, and I don’t mean you or I, are still doing that as Americans. Some people cannot deal with change and in this world there is constant change but America, right now, is experiencing a time similar to the late 1800’s when the robber barons had control. Perhaps soon, the rest of America will see what is going on and act. I do like being in the group that can see clearly what is going on, though, don’t you?

            • sillylittleme says:

              Yes and no. Yes, because at least I can see what is happening and accept the reality of it. No, because it is an uphill battle trying to get everyone else on board.

    • Nirek says:

      Sue, the French were there and Michelin rubber had rubber plantations. I fought in them with my company. it was easy to take cover since the trees were in straight lines. you could peek quickly and see if anyone was in the open, but so could they.

  10. NoManIsAnIsland says:

    Amen, Nirek. You posted this yesterday, June 27, and it happens I’ve just read it in the early evening of June 28, 2014 — 100 years to the day the unhinged Serbian terrorist Gavrilo Princip fired the two shots that quickly, insanely, and inexorably touched off World War One.

    The grim and profound lessons the survivors of World War One and their descendants should have learned were never fully taken to heart: the wars provoked by Princip’s equally mad spiritual heirs in Sarajevo again and then in Kosovo were horrific reminders of that.

    Yet as Nirek has explained with such insight and clarity, if we allegedly “human” beings are ever to stop senseless destruction and killing of each other for little or no good reason, we must learn to go to war — as we did in World War Two — not as a wonderful and exciting first choice, but as a last resort.

    And there can be no better day to think about this than this tragic 100th anniversary of the beginning of the so-called “War to end all Wars.” If only it had been….

  11. monicaangela says:


    Thank you for that information on Walt Disney, I really was unaware of it. I imagine I will have to look into it. It appears that most wealthy people in this nation are less patriotic than those who are least allowed to enjoy the bounty of this country. I will make a mental note to explore the subject of Disney and the Nazis, and hopefully some time in the future we can have another conversation regarding this matter.

  12. monicaangela says:

    “How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of Negroes?” Samuel Johnson, the great English writer and dictionary maker, posed this question in 1775. He was among the first, but certainly not the last, to contrast the noble aims of the American Revolution with the presence of 450,000 enslaved African Americans in the 13 colonies. Slavery was practiced in every colony in 1775, but it was crucial to the economy and social structure from the Chesapeake region south to Georgia. Slave labor produced the great export crops of the South-tobacco, rice, indigo, and naval stores. Bringing slaves from Africa and the West Indies had made settlement of the New World possible and highly profitable. Who could predict what breaking away from the British Empire might mean for black people in America?

    Maybe it could not be predicted what breaking away from the British Empire would mean for African Americans in America, but those who fought in the Revolutionary War, slave holders and non-slave holders realized what the elimination of slavery would mean for them.

    The British governor of Virginia, Lord Dunmore, quickly saw the vulnerability of the South’s slaveholders. In November 1775, he issued a proclamation promising freedom to any slave of a rebel who could make it to the British lines. Dunmore organized an “Ethiopian” brigade of about 300 African Americans, who saw action at the Battle of Great Bridge (December 9, 1775). Dunmore and the British were soon expelled from Virginia, but the prospect of armed former slaves fighting alongside the British must have struck fear into plantation masters across the South.

    Yes, all of this was going on during the revolutionary war, and yes, slavery played a great part in the reason why the colonies rose up against the British, not just taxes, and not just the East India company and the attempt by the British government to bail them out, and not the many other occurrences that strung together caused the the colonist to revolt, NO, it was all about profit that could not be taken away by the British, and much of the profit in America at the time depended on SLAVERY.

  13. monicaangela says:

    War is the life blood of this nation, it has been since the counter revolution of 1776, the revolution we will be celebrating, some of us, on July 4th. why do I call it the counter revolution? Let me allow Gerald Horne, professor of history and African American studies at the University of Houston to explain it:

    GERALD HORNE: We should understand that July 4th, 1776, in many ways, represents a counterrevolution. That is to say that what helped to prompt July 4th, 1776, was the perception among European settlers on the North American mainland that London was moving rapidly towards abolition. This perception was prompted by Somerset’s case, a case decided in London in June 1772 which seemed to suggest that abolition, which not only was going to be ratified in London itself, was going to cross the Atlantic and basically sweep through the mainland, thereby jeopardizing numerous fortunes, not only based upon slavery, but the slave trade. That’s the short answer.

    Want to know more? Find out here: http://www.democracynow.org/2014/6/27/counter_revolution_of_1776_was_us

    Every war in this nation has been fought because of greed, from inception to the Afghanistan/Iraq wars, and every war in between, before and after. That is why I detest war, and yes, I too am a veteran, not drafted, a volunteer. I volunteered not to fight for this country, but to help those that like you, were drafted, or not enlightened enough to realize the true purpose of war. Did I know as much then as I do now, no, but I had a general idea then as a 19 year old, I stayed 3 years and left even more convinced that my suspicions were true regarding this nation and war. As General Smedley Butler says, “War is a Racket.” All wars are nothing more than the greedy trying to feed their insatiable appetite.

    • Harleigh says:

      Monicaangela Wait just a dang minute! You said ‘The Nazis broke unions, lowered wages, abolished overtime pay, decreased business taxes and increased business subsidies. Their program bears a strong resemblance to the Republican agenda in this country.’ I personally fail to see the difference except for their names.

      • monicaangela says:

        Personally, I believe the names have been changed only to protect the guilty in this case. 🙂 You know the CIA hired many Nazis after World War II….could we be seeing some of their descendants in the GOP….I wonder….LOL!!!

        • SueInCa says:

          That is not so far fetched as you might think, Monica. If you get a chance, read this article I wrote back in 2012 and tell me what you think.


          • Nirek says:

            Sue, reading that again and the comments from Bito and KQ brought tears to my eyes. I miss those tow guys. They were so good !

            Thanks again for bringing that blast from the past. It is just as good today as ever.


          • monicaangela says:

            Hello SueInCa,

            That article should be re-posted today!! What an excellent comparison of ideology that definitely does fit with the beliefs of the the Nazis during World War II. My dad, may he rest in peace, would often laughingly state that one politician or another in the congress was a descendant of the Nazis and probably had relatives that served the Third Reich. He would laugh when he stated this what he considered a fact so that we, his children would not run with the idea and get into trouble because of his ideology. I being inquisitive to say the least have since I was a teen studied everything I could to try to make the connection. The tracks have been well covered, but if you search, you can find connections. I often wonder why the Anti-Defamation League has never tried to make a lot of these connections public. I know they must have more information than I can gain access to.

            Thank you for directing me to that article, I am so happy there are people like you who try to follow the facts no matter where they lead. Your article IMHO is non partisan, and does make the case. Much of the republican platform and ideology appears to be based upon that of Hitler and the third Reich.

            To show you how complicit and untruthful those in this nation were about the war and during the war, this little known fact still boggles my mind: In late June, 1999, California’s Huntington Library revealed it had Hitler’s infamous Nuremburg Racial Laws. Yet where was the document for 54 years? In Bloodlines, author Tony Platt explodes the story of General Patton blazing into Nuremburg and finding the papers in a safe. Platt found it was Martin Dannenberg, a Jewish man, who actually unearthed the document.
            At age 90, Dannenberg reported that his three-man counter-intelligence team found it in Eichstatt, not Nuremburg, then gave it to Patton’s intelligence chief with the understanding it would be sent to Supreme Headquarters, Allied Expeditionary Force. Instead, it wound up in Patton’s trophy case, then into Huntington’s vault. Platt believes it was not Patton’s antiSemitism but his desire for glory and loot that led him to grab the document. Subsequently, it was sent to the Skirball Cultural Center in Los Angeles, where the photo of Patton has been replaced in their exhibition with one of a young Dannenberg. And yet there are those who honor and revere Patton to this day..it must cost billions to keep the populace in this country as uneducated as those in power seem to want us to be.

            • Nirek says:

              Monica, Sue has a way with words. Did you read any of the comments? Did you know Bito and KQ?
              If not , I’m sorry as they were wise men.

              Peace, my friend.

    • Nirek says:

      Monica, WWII was fought because Hitler was a despot killing millions and Japan did the Pearl Harbor thing. That was the thing that got us involved. We were on the sidelines until then. This is why I singled out WWII as the one war that was necessary or righteous. For all our wars since I agree with you and the General.

      • monicaangela says:

        All still a racket I’m afraid, and even though the spin on it has been, we went in to save the Jews and those that were being taken over by the Nazi’s and Fascist in Europe, helps to pull the wool over the eyes of some, the real truth is this. Most Americans know enough about the Nazi holocaust to thoroughly despise the horrible events that occurred -- the torture, executions, concentration camps, forced starvation, gas chambers and the attempted extermination of the Jews. I wonder what Americans would think if they knew that the part of this Nazi terror apparatus which operated on the Russian front was incorporated into the CIA after World War 2. The Nazi SS officer was Reinhard Gehlen, and he and his group were employed by the CIA for their knowledge of the Soviet Union. The SS death squads that followed the German advance into the Soviet Union were very brutal, killing any communists and Jews they found. The CIA used Nazi war criminals like Klaus Barbie, Walter Rauff, Otto Skorzeny and others in South America to impart their knowledge of torture techniques and concentration camps to the police and militaries there. Klaus Barbie was involved in the 1980 Bolivian coup known as the “cocaine coup” that is described in former DEA agent Michael Levine’s book The Big White Lie.

        There is a close and often ignored relationship between fascism and capitalism. German corporations financed Hitler’s rise to power and were rewarded by slave labor. Krupp, I.G. Farben and other corporations used Jewish and Slavic slave labor. Alfred Krupp called girl babies born to his slaves “useless feeders” because they were not as strong a potential worker as were boy babies. These girl babies were gassed.

        American corporations invested heavily in Nazi Germany, and many like General Motors and Ford had factories there, which also used slave labor and produced war materials for the Nazis. US corporate investment in Germany accelerated rapidly after Hitler came to power. Investment increased 48.5% between 1929 and 1940, while declining in the rest of continental Europe. American bombers deliberately avoided hitting these US factories, and they received compensation from the American taxpayer for any damage after the war. US oil companies sold oil to the Nazis and oil on credit to the fascists in Spain.

        Many American capitalists were openly sympathetic to the Nazis. Henry Ford wrote a book called The International Jew: The World’s Foremost Problem, and he is mentioned in Mein Kampf. James Mooney, the General Motors executive in charge of European operations, was awarded the Order of Merit of the Golden Eagle by Adolf Hitler. There were op-ed pieces by Nazis like Hermann Göring in Hearst newspapers in the United States.

        The Nazis broke unions, lowered wages, abolished overtime pay, decreased business taxes and increased business subsidies. Their program bears a strong resemblance to the Republican agenda in this country.

        Americans are never taught the true extent of their history, only his story, that being the story of the vulture capitalist that never does anything and never has done anything without looking for the profit in it.

        • Thanks for posting this. My MFA thesis project was an historical play about the CIC/CIA in the postwar period, and I had relied on Christopher Simpson’s book and the Operation Paperclip info. One thing the documentary misses (I haven’t seen all of it) was that Barbie’s intelligence value in postwar Germany was his knowledge of the communist parties in Germany and France. He gave the CIA sufficient information to penetrate and destroy these parties before they could make it to the ballot. His CIC case officer, Erhard Dabringhaus, came forward when Barbie was captured in South America and wrote about the work Barbie did in Europe.

          This part of this discussion deserves its own thread.
          /on topic
          A FB friend of mine has set up a couple of peace-related sites for protest and info. One is called Soldiers for Peace International. The other is WorldWide peace Strike, which is trying to set up monthly protests about war and peace.

          • monicaangela says:

            You are welcome Misterbadexample,

            As Allied troops approached Lyons in September 1944, Barbie destroyed Gestapo records and killed hundreds of Frenchmen who had first-hand knowledge of his brutal interrogation methods. This included twenty double-agents who had been supplying him with information about the French Resistance.

            Barbie fled back to Nazi Germany where he was recruited by the US Counter-Intelligence Corps (CIC). Barbie impressed his American handlers by infiltrating the Bavarian branch of the Communist Party. According to the CIC Barbie’s “value as an informant infinitely outweighs any use he may have in prison.”

            René Hardy was tried for treason in 1950. Both the prosecution and the defence teams wanted Barbie to testify. At this time John J. McCloy, the High Commissioner for Germany, was concerned about the growth of communism in Bavaria and valued the role played by Barbie in this struggle. Therefore he decided to reject the requests being made by the French authorities to hand over Barbie. During the trial, Hardy’s defense lawyer exposed what was happening by announcing in court that it was “scandalous that the U.S. military authorities in Germany were protecting Barbie from extradition for security reasons.”

            The U.S. government along with the CIA/CIC in this case appear to have their dirty little fingers in just about every dastardly deed that happens where WAR us concerned. The information I mentioned above came from this website: http://spartacus-educational.com/GERbarbie.htm

            I have read about Barbie and many others who worked for the Nazis that were incorporated into the CIA after the war. When I discuss this subject with friends and some who are not so friendly, I often get a blank stare as though I might be making all of this up. It is amazing what the citizens of this nation refuse to believe concerning our government and the efforts to which capitalist will go for profit.

        • SueInCa says:

          I have to say, after reading countless books on Nazi Germany, that the United States knew in their hearts what was going on almost the whole time in Germany. To say that we did not would make us the most ignorant nation on earth. For crying out loud, we had a “professor ambassador” Roosevelt put there because he thought the guy would be too intellectual to really want to interact too much with Hitler. It back fired horribly when this ambassador started reporting. The only thing they could do was to make fun of him, trying to intimidate him so he would stop.

          After WWI no American had the heart to get involved again and I believe the Jews suffered as a result. I am not blaming Americans for the loss of so many but I am blaming Americans for ignoring the news they were hearing. Here is the Wiki on William Dodd:


          • monicaangela says:

            It is a well known fact that the U.S. does not and has never gotten involved in war to help human beings that might be suffering unless there is a profit in it. And, as the Wiki article said, many of those in government were antisemitic themselves and probably could have cared less about the Jews. As the article said, Roosevelt was only interested in coming to the aid of American citizens in Germany who happened to be Jews, and that to appease the Jewish population in this nation….sad, sad, commentary, but we must face it….this nation was founded by racist and it has taken a long, long time to make a dent in those that would continue to believe in a superior race…how ignorant they truly are, but because they control the resources of this planet, those who know better have to continue to struggle until they are convinced differently or completely removed from society.

        • Nirek says:

          Monica, you will get no argument from me that profiteering was part of the WWII. But when I was a kid my Dad was stationed in Munich Germany. He took us to the concentration camp at Auschwitz. I remember seeing the hanging tree and the gas chamber and the ovens. We even went inside it. There were pictures of the Jews lined up beside an open trench and the Nazis shooting them. They fell into the trench.
          Those memories are etched in my mind and that is one reason I am so against war.

          Remember we did not enter the war until Pearl Harbor.

          I’m also against war profiteers. That includes the MIC.

          • Harleigh says:

            Holy jumpin jebus Nirek. When did he take you there and how old were you? I’m in my sixties but only saw any and all of that on TV for like the first 20 some years of TV but was never outside of the US!! LOL

            • Nirek says:

              Harleigh, I was in third grade when we went there. I’ll never forget what I saw.

          • monicaangela says:

            Those things you recount are things that profiteers of war promote in order to justify their actions. Horrible things committed in the name of freedom, just look at what Bush and Cheney did at Abu Ghraib. Maybe it does not compare with the Nazi death camps, but for me it is just as horrible, and I am sure the people of Iraq feel the same about those things as we do about the horrible mistreatment of the Jews, homosexuals, and all others who did not submit to the will of the Third Reich. A government existed in Germany, good people who allowed the things that happened to happen, this is the way of the world, this is why there is so many wars, so much division, as Martin Niemollen said:

            First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
            Because I was not a Socialist.

            Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
            Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

            Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
            Because I was not a Jew.

            Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

            Mankind did not learn a lesson even after all of the carnage in that war, why? Because we as human beings love to be more than, better than, and irresponsible until we are the ones that are put upon. When those that would come to help us come, they are not coming for us per say, there is profit in it for them, that is why. So yes, sad that the death camps ever existed, but believe me those are not the only death camps that ever existed, and you don’t have to go to Europe to find them, they are all over the U.S. Native Americans, African Americans, and many others have suffered at the hands of those that would enslave their fellow man for profit and pleasure.

            • NoManIsAnIsland says:

              Good points, monicaangela.

              Knowing you, I’m sure it was just a typo; but for anyone not familiar with the German Lutheran pastor who was first a supporter of Hitler and then was imprisoned by him, his last name doesn’t end with an “n,” “Niemollen,” but with an “r”: “Niemöller.”

            • Nirek says:

              Monica, we are both against war and war profiteers, so I will gladly leave it there.

        • sillylittleme says:

          You forgot to mention Prescott Bush and his Nazi bank. Do you really think that HW spending a good portion of his career climbing the ladder in the CIA was a coincidence?
          Also, I believe that Walt Disney was an admirer of Hitler, as was Lindbergh.

          • monicaangela says:

            Yes, I did leave Prescott out, and many, many others who capitalized on that war, some of the most rich and powerful families in this nation owe much of their wealth to that war and the war that preceded it. It has long been said that Walt Disney was anti Semitic, I have not investigated the claim, but from some of the things I have read regarding Disney and his work with the U.S. military producing propaganda films to help end the war, I would have to say, I can’t include him with the rest of the aforementioned vulture capitalist.

            • Nirek says:

              Wasn’t Walt D. also dishonorably discharged from the service, too. He used to sit on the corner of his desk with the discharge over his shoulder and say good night to us at the end of his show.

            • Hey slm. I think artists have always put politics aside, in favor of their art. I’m not trying to make excuses for Disney, but I have to wonder how he felt after 1944 and 45.

              Riefenstahl herself, of course was also an artist. I don’t know how much of a Nazi she was, if at all, in her heart, but I think she took advantage of her situation to further her career as an artist. She may have had no moral qualms at all about what she was doing, which really wouldn’t make her much better than the psychopaths that employed her.

            • sillylittleme says:

              Re: Walt Disney from Wikipedia: “Disney was long rumored to be antisemitic during his lifetime, and such rumors persisted after his death. In 1938 he welcomed German filmmaker and Nazi propagandist Leni Riefenstahl to Hollywood to promote her film Olympia.[167] Even after news of Kristallnacht broke, Disney did not cancel his invitation to Riefenstahl. Animator Art Babbitt claimed to have seen Disney and his lawyer, Gunther Lessing, attending meetings of the German American Bund, a pro-Nazi organization, in the late 1930s.[168]”

              Anti-semitism is a whole different issue. Technically even a Jew can be anti-semitic. Semites are all Middle Easterners…

              Walt wished he was half as successful a vulture capitalist as Michael Eisner… ;=}

      • Hey Nirek. I don’t think American soldiers fighting in Europe really knew the extent of their “rightness,” in fighting Hitler UNTIL they discovered the death camps. I think those that actually saw the results of the final solution knew, then and there, that their sacrifices were justified.

        • sillylittleme says:

          The soldiers may not have known, but the top brass knew…

          • SLM, yes, I was referring to the soldiers. Our bombers, AND England’s bombers had aerial photos of some of the biggest camps. I’m not sure if they chose not to bomb them for fear of killing the prisoners, or if they just saw bombing the camps as a waste of bombs. I’d really like to know why they didn’t choose to bomb them.

            I have seen several documentaries in which survivors of those camps were praying for the camps to be bombed.

            I do know that both England and America concentrated on military and industrial targets.

            • NoManIsAnIsland says:

              I can give you a definitive
              answer to that, and if you
              wish, should be able to provide you with citations with which you can confirm my comments. I wouldn’t make them without proof.

              President Roosevelt himself was begged to bomb the rail lines leading to the death
              camps to make it harder to
              bring victims to them — there
              would be far fewer prisoners, if any killed by this approach,
              but he was on record as saying that it would divert resources from the war effort (only true if the war effort didn’t include trying to
              limit the ongoing genocide), and for this reason he wouldn’t
              permit it.

              The following is a still little-known and very
              unsettling fact: A few years before this, when FDR’s Jewish Secretary of the Treasury, Henry Morgenthau, Jr, after confirming the existence of the death camps, beseeched
              him to try to rescue as many Jews as possible, he coldly told him — and this is an exact paraphrase — that we were at war, and in wartime the president of the United States could not be seen giving “extra” help or attention to
              any one “special” group of people, as it would promote disunity among our general population!!!

            • Hey slm, well I’m glad you are. 😉

              I think many prisoners believed the Nazis were going to kill them anyway (and history has proven that belief to be correct) and at least bombing would have destroyed the crematoriums and the railroad lines and severely disrupted the Nazis’s ability to function. Many also saw a chance for escape if we had bombed the camps.

            • sillylittleme says:

              I don’t know about that. I’m glad they didn’t bomb them. Otherwise I wouldn’t be here… ;=}

    • sillylittleme says:

      In all deference to the wise professor, I’m not sure a case could be made that the farmers of Lexington and Concord were aware of abolition. While it may have been on the radar, it wasn’t what drove Sam Adams to organize the original tea party. MA was under siege and the residents were only too aware of the daily presence of the redcoats.

      One other flaw in that theory is that the slave holding states to the south had to be cajoled into accepting revolution. And they are seemingly still fighting abolition. It was of course the southern states that put a caveat on freedom for all.

      In Abigail Adams’ letters to her husband on the eve of the signing of the Declaration, she queried whether women and non-white landowners would be considered free. Sadly John had to report back that the answer was no.

      Sorry to burst his bubble, but that’s all he would have to do is visit the Boston area to know that his theory is not steeped in reality.

      • monicaangela says:

        I know you believe what you are saying is correct, but a bit more searching into the abolitionist movement and the revolutionary war will prove what the wise professor” is saying.
        Slavery had existed in America from the discovery and exploration period, and America’s economy had become dependent upon it. The culture had reconciled itself to acceptance of the practice long before our nation’s founders began to articulate their arguments concerning abolition. The battle that our forefathers put forth can and should be likened to an underdog stepping into the boxing ring against an unbeaten world champion. There is no shame in putting up a fight against such a formidable foe and going toe-to-toe for fifteen rounds and losing. What would have been shameful would have been to have seen the injustice of slavery and done nothing at all. If that were the case, perhaps I would agree that our Founding Fathers were bigots and hypocrites as has been bantered around in our society today. They were not. They put up a monumental fight to end the evils of slavery; but unlike the ease with which David’s stone killed Goliath, this battle took the lives of hundreds of thousands of men before an entire nation that had become hopelessly dependent on slavery would require much more than a small stone but with a willing heart and a trusty slingshot. The facts are crystal clear on this issue. Our Founding Fathers began the movement that eventually destroyed the practice of slavery. These were brave and extraordinary men who took it upon themselves to change the face of what America was to become. The arguments that they made and the accomplishments they rendered set the stand for what was to principally define our Nation.

        It is important to note that slavery existed throughout the colonies, without restraint, prior to the Revolution. In the north, the antislavery movement began to gain momentum as early as 1773. In Rhode Island, Reverend Samuel Hopkins, became the leader of the antislavery movement. He utilized his position as minister of the First Congregational Church of Newport to preach against the evils of slavery. Reverend Hopkins took the issue to another level by going door-to-door amidst church members and neighbors and pleaded for the release of their slaves. In Philadelphia, with the arrival of Thomas Paine, the antislavery movement took another leap forward as Paine’s first tract entitled “African Slavery in America” was published. Paine’s pamphlet begins with “That some desperate wretches should be willing to steal and enslave men by violence and murder for gain is rather lamentable than strange. But that many civilized, nay, Christianized people should approve, and be concerned in the savage practice, is surprising.”

        The abolitionist movement in Philadelphia also benefited from the work of Quaker printer Anthony Benezet who printed numerous antislavery tracts. His good friend, signer of the Declaration of Independence, and later Surgeon General of the Continental Army, Dr. Benjamin Rush, along with other concerned Philadelphians, founded the “Society for the Relief of Free Negroes Unlawfully Held in Bondage.”

        In Virginia, Patrick Henry was cut to the heart after reading the antislavery tracts written by Benezet. Mr. Henry, himself a Christian man and a slave owner, declared that he could not justify the institution of slavery as it was, “repugnant to humanity…inconsistent with the Bible, and contrary to the principles of liberty.”

        The efforts of these early abolitionists began to pay huge dividends even before the Revolution began. In 1774, the Delegates to the First Continental Congress pledged to stop the importation of slaves to America. The Founding Fathers present at the First Continental Congress included:

        John Adams …………………………………. Massachusetts

        Samuel Adams ……………………………… Massachusetts

        John Dickinson ……………………………… Pennsylvania

        Joseph Galloway …………………………… Pennsylvania

        Patrick Henry ……………………………….. Virginia

        John Jay ………………………………………. New York

        Richard Henry Lee ………………………… Virginia

        Phillip Livingston ……………………………. New York

        Thomas Mifflin ………………………………. Pennsylvania

        Peyton Randolph …………………………… Virginia

        Roger Sherman ……………………………… Connecticut

        Charles Thompson …………………………. Pennsylvania

        George Washington ……………………….. Virginia

        In the same year, 1774 Reverend Hopkins and the Congregational Church accomplished their objective and abolished slavery in Rhode Island.

        In 1777, Pennsylvania passed its first law for the gradual emancipation and made appropriation for full emancipation by 1780. Both of these colonies dealt with slavery before the Revolutionary War had even been decided.

        After the conclusion of the war, during the 1780’s Connecticut outlawed slavery with New York abolishing it in 1799 and New Jersey in 1804.

        As the abolitionist movement was gaining momentum in the northern states, it was having a strong effect on the southern states as well. Delaware, Maryland, North Carolina and Virginia all passed laws making it easier for slave owners to emancipate their slaves.

        Once the Constitution of the United States was in place, the Federal Government in 1787 passed the Northwest Ordinance outlawing the institution of slavery where many of the new states would be formed. The Founding Fathers passed this law and it was to this law that Abraham Lincoln referred throughout his Presidency.

        • Harleigh says:

          Monicaangela where do you come up with all this facty truthy stuff about almost any subject? Are you maybe really a computer or some think-tank or university genius? seriously. I know we’ve chatted over the years as old HP fans but here you can really come out. You’re much better than 200 characters! I’m still going to be a bagger squishing snarkerer for jebus! and a fan of you also too.

          • Nirek says:

            Harleigh, I have to agree with you. Monica is like a computer. She has facts to back up what she says. I just have a hard time changing my view of some things I have always believed. I’m trying , though.

          • monicaangela says:

            Thank you Harleigh, your accolades are truly appreciated. I am just another blogger, enjoying conversation with others here at the Planet. I try very hard to research my opinion before I give it. I am not always correct, but I love defending what I write, I’ve noticed you to operate in the same manner. 🙂 It’s good to see you here, and I too am a fan of yours.

        • sillylittleme says:

          Perhaps I put it too simplistically. The original draft of the Declaration HAD freed the slaves. When the final draft was signed it did not. Still, I don’t think that what was going on in Boston in the early 1770s, had anything to do with the issue of abolition. The state was surrounded by British ships. And the people were being kept from maintaining independent commerce.

          Maybe what was happening in Philly wasn’t the same as what was happening in Boston, Either way, I don’t think that the farmers who died on the small green in Lexington center were thinking about the wrongness of slavery when they expired.

          • monicaangela says:

            A big part of that independent commerce was the slave trade. Slavery was the backbone that allowed the rest of the “commerce” to be possible and profitable. As in every war, the soldiers all have their idea as to why they are fighting and what they are fighting for. It is those that stand to profit from the war that know how to put the spin on the conversation to make it appear as though the war is about something other than what it is. Just look at what happened in Iraq. I suppose you believe every soldier that went to that war knew they were going to steal the oil of the Iraqi’s and protect it for the international corporations. No, they bought the spin and believed they were protecting this nation.

            • Hey Monica, I believe the Revolutionary War and the Iraq War are miles apart, in comparison.

              In the Revolutionary War, as I have no doubt you are well aware of, was about independence from Britain and the establishment of our own nation.

              Sure, the 13 colonies did benefit from slavery, but I think that issue was not on people’s minds at the time of their involvement in that war.

              I don’t think it was really on the minds of the Constitutional Congress either, except for fudiciary concerns.

            • sillylittleme says:

              While I know that slavery existed nominally in MA prior to their full emancipation in the 1780s, the African population in MA was largely free. I still don’t think that abolition was the driving force. Unless you are implying that the original tea party was a farce and that Sam Adams was more concerned about that than the city being under siege. The stories that have been written in MA regarding the behavior of the redcoats to the farmers was what drove them to drive them out of Lexington and Concord. If that event hadn’t happened, would we have had a revolution? I don’t know if we’ll ever have an answer to that. Regardless, GA and I can’t remember which other southern state strongly objected to having that written into the Declaration and so it was removed. Oh and Hancock had inherited slave ships from his adoptive father, I don’t know if he ever took a position on it publicly.

  14. sillylittleme says:

    Peace is cheap and war is costly.
    With peace, there is happiness and a feeling of security. People don’t fear the stranger, because they see themselves as the stranger to the other. With peace there is no destruction, so no need for reconstruction. With peace there can be endless prosperity and constant renewal of resources.

    With war, there is sadness and a fear that security is not possible. People fear the other, because they can’t see themselves as a stranger in someone else’s eyes. With war there is destruction, so eventually a need for construction and reconstruction. With war there is limited prosperity, because of the high use of limited resources crammed into a limited period of time.

    Having never had to serve, as I was 10 when Vietnam ended, I do know that those who make their living in the MIC are slowly realizing that we have bigger fish to fry. And perpetual war will end when humanity acknowledges that we all go down (except for perhaps the pygmys off the coast of Indonesia) if we don’t fix our environment.

    • Nirek says:

      Sillylittleme, we have always got maintenance on our infrastructure to spend money on, we don’t need war. Why not put the money into doing the right thing for our people , country, and environment instead of perpetual war?

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