Vox Populi – 2-8-2013

KQµårk 死神 : I’m off as well. We are going away to the GA mountains for St. Valentine’s day to take a long overdue break. I may check in a time or two.

AdLib : Sleep well!

SallyT : Good night!

SallyT : No problem!

AdLib : Just make sure we’re above the fold!

SallyT : Don’t worry, AdLib, I’ll be in there with you!

AdLib : Heh!

SallyT : I’ll see you in the funny papers!

AdLib : Night Murph!

AdLib : Yep, grab the bowls of peanuts and I’ll grab the beer bottles. Thanks for closing the Vox bar with me again, Sally. Looking forward to Sunday’s Funnies!

SallyT : I guess it is just you and me, AdLib.

SallyT : Good night, Murph!

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…good point. And you are correct…a good place to close. Thanks for the discussion. Good night.

SallyT : I thought it was because he wouldn’t say he was or wasn’t, Murph?

MurphTheSurf3 : Sally and unwilling to play the game….being gay was ok if you were discreet, but honesty earned no points. That is why he was jailed.

AdLib : Murph – A great way to close, I too like the upside of the parliamentary system, think of how much Obama could have accomplished in 8 years with it. Then again, think about how much more destruction Bush could have caused.

SallyT : Murph, it made me tear up to think of poor Oscar Wilde. So talent and so mistreated because he was “different”.

AdLib : Night CL! Rest well!

AdLib : CL – “TSA to junk naked body airport scanners – The TSA says the X-ray scanners will be gone by June because Rapiscan was not able to come up with a software fix to make the scanners comply with a Congressional mandate that the scanners better protect passenger privacy. Opponents of full-body scanners argue that strip searches without probable cause violate basic human rights.” «link»

SallyT : He was great, wasn’t he!?

MurphTheSurf3 : Sally….I did.

SallyT : Goodnight, CL and rest well.

SallyT : Parliament!

SallyT : That was great, Murph, did you see that gentlemen give his speech to parliment?

MurphTheSurf3 : Good night KT and Choice!

choicelady : Murph – you make a very good point about Parliament! Good night!

SallyT : Goodnight, KT, and have a good rest so you can get up and start loading music!

MurphTheSurf3 : Great discussion tonight…Before I leave….wanted to point out why I prefer a Parliamentary System to our structure…the passage of the Marriage Equality bill in Britain…on the legislative docket for three months…three vigorous debates in the House after three committee reports…and passage.

AdLib : Night KT! Sleep well!

choicelady : KT -I’m with you. I’ve had a very long but productive week, and I’m exhausted. You’re three hours ahead, too! So I also am saying good night. Thank you everyone for an excellent and thought provoking evening!

AdLib : KT – The Founders wanted civilian control of our military, thus we have a President who is also CIC. The Pres is a civilian and as has been documented with JFK, the generals were convicted about bombing Cuba which would have likely set off a nuclear exchange between us and the USSR. It was only the fact that we had a civilian, JFK, as CIC that the military mindset of the time was blocked from causing a massive catastrophe.

choicelady : Sally – hmmm. Wonder if that’s the very nice women I met in Ashland with him? She was lovely! Maybe he’s nicer than he seemed, but I see pettiness in him as I did with Dennis whom I also had liked very much. Until I didn’t.

choicelady : AdLib – I think we have NOT given up the privacy and civil rights talk. The problem is we have those who want EVERYONE (except themselves) under the microscope and those who want everything (except their writings, phone calls, etc.) totally revealed to the entire public 24/7. We aren’t doing the discussion well at ALL.

KillgoreTrout : CL, the reality is, that in war time the government feels no resposibility to release military secrets. War would be quite unsuccessful without secrets. It does boil down to a faith in our leaders.

SallyT : Who are these people that say he is pissed? He comes from a state that is very progressive and he should be questioning our lack of policy on drone use. That does not make him an enemy of the President.

choicelady : AdLib – nobody sees you nekkid to fly! I had to go through those giant machines last year – it’s a cartoon outline. Found my watch, though. Forgot to take it off… duh.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…I agree…all of which points to the need for a structure for policy development and review, and for operational oversight.

choicelady : Sally – what he did formally was good. But people who know him have indicated he felt slighted and is still pissed. Like Kucinich did. Petty people can be tricky to deal with.

KillgoreTrout : Well friends, it’s time to count sheep. I still don’t how many it takes to reach slumberland! Long may run!

SallyT : And, Senator Wyden is married to a very wealthy lady. I have spoken with him and he is very willing to discuss issues he is familiar with and very imformative.

choicelady : KT – it is the bomb that has set off all the discussion. Should there have been some civilian or ethical determination before it was dropped? It is naive to think it’s all going to get ‘sunshine’ when security is an issue, but HOW much secrecy is OK? If drones are known and policies are made about them by our Congress, then it’s head and shoulders over what happened at Stagg Field and in New Mexico. We ARE tired of being lied to – but I don’t see this use of drones AS a lie at all. I’ve known it for years.

AdLib : CL – That is scary! We do indeed need to be publicly discussing our rights and how they should and shouldn’t be compromised in the pursuit of protecting ourselves. Unfortunately, that debate seems to have ended after 9/11 when too many people agreed that any sacrifice of rights is okay as long as it makes us feel more secure. Like being seen nude just to be able to fly on a plane.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL…yes, that is my point. I think Wyden is using this to dig away at the Obama administration.. .one of the unhappy who believe they should be far more important than they are.

SallyT : CL, I have to disagree with you about Senator Wyden as he is Oregons. He is not upset by the health care plan, in fact, he withdrew his support from the committee with the Republican he was working with and said he was in agreement with the President.

KillgoreTrout : The CIC acts in the capacity of head of the armed services, so I question how that position is related to civilian affairs. It’s like the deisions mad all through WWII. How many of those decisions were made public? It’s like the decision to use the atomic bomb. No civilians were asked whether it was right or wrong. Not before the weapons were used, because the government kept them in the dark.

choicelady : Murph – I have some real problems with Wyden.He is furious with Obama for not accepting his bi-partisan plan on health care that would have been a disaster. He’s never forgiven Obama for the ‘slight’. I stayed at a B&B where he was once. He never even spoke ONE WORD to any of us. We sat behind him and his girlfriend at a play, and she talked with us. He ignored us utterly. So I see him as a very odd and egotistical person. He kind of worries me.

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- in this case the paper was the legal basis and the philosophical foundation for the policy that the Senate Committee seems to have accepted. It is the kind of thing that would be useful for them to work with as well.

AdLib : Murph – Right, as it should be. I do think Brennan will fill them in on much more than the public should know though I think this is quite overdue. Again, I’m not upset at nor untrusting of Obama and his admin on this, I am concerned at how operating without real oversight sets a bad precedent for when Repubs return to the WH.

choicelady : AdLib – I think that IS the issue. In 2003 just after the war started, we were hacked at the office by probably NSA. We had been having an internal email discussion about a rumor that the FBI was demanding imam’s sermons BEFORE they were given. We were debating weighing in on it. Later I was alone in the office and got a call from a “reporter” asking about that – and she knew a LOT of the conversation. I blew her off then called NBC and KNBC where she claimed she worked – they never heard of her. So WHO is monitoring things such as computers – MY computer -does matter. We won’t abandon computers in case another Bush or Dominionist comes around. Same with ANYTHING. The Nazis monitored radios. It all comes down to RIGHTS rather than the medium. We need to be debating WAR not just the particular mode of war.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…here is my reading….the paper was the philosophical underpinning for the operational parameters…the Senate Committee has been dealing with those but had not seen the paper. Who is making the most fuss over the paper, those not happy with the operations. Wyden et. al. I think they are using it as a lever.

KillgoreTrout : This makes me think of the social compact and just what personalfreedoms are we going to sacrifice for the good of the nation.