Vox Populi – 6-14-2013

choicelady : Good night, KT – whatever you do, it will be wonderful. Yup – see you on the thread AND in the funny papers! Good night!

KillgoreTrout : Wow, it’s been a great night. Lots of good, intellectual discourse. As Murph said, its great to be among people who can who can discuss issues without vitriol. Truly a unique spot in the blogosphere. I’ve got to start the music thread. Not sure what the theme will be. Thanks so much for doing such a great job as host. See ya in the funny papers.

choicelady : KT – I have to be up to march in the Pride Parade tomorrow. They want us there at 9 for some reason. So if it’s OK with you, we will shut her down?

choicelady : KT – NO! It’s 1:15 there! Yikes!

KillgoreTrout : Well Murph, we weren’t in any position to assume there weren’t warheads there.

choicelady : Good night and sweet dreams, Murph. KT – where are you at this point? It’s 12:15 your time. Want to close it out? I’ll pick up the glasses and vaccum. No need for you to do anything at all. But don’t tell my husband – he’ll be jealous.

MurphTheSurf3 : Yes to bed. I will leave my response to your last comment CL until another time.

KillgoreTrout : Exactly CL. The right viewed kennedy as being “soft on communism.” They thought he’d give the whole ballgame away. The day he was killed in Dallas, there were posters and handbills accusing Kennedy of being a communists. Sound familiar.

choicelady : Murph – go to bed!

choicelady : Murph- I thought that’s what I remembered of your expertise. These are all areas I don’t know well, so I bring into this what I’ve done OUTSIDE the study of government – the alternative universe of shadow governments, secret pacts, more open but still not well known deals driven by the private sector. The antipathy to government began with FDR of course, but it grew by leaps and bounds among the ruling class people driving the economy, and the hate toward JFK was profound. Oddly – it was LESS so against LBJ since he cranked up the war machine and made them stinking rich. Coming at this from studying the corporate power structure and its machinations, I think I see the actions and rage against JFK quite differently. I don’t know if you recall Bill Domhoff who wrote “Who Rules America” and other similar (oh hell virtually identical) books about all this, but he was my advisor in grad school. While his work was kind of limited intellectually, it set me on a course of inquiry that I’ve never given up – and that has been the reason I do believe there have been cabals and covert actions outside legitimate government. Maybe that’s why I’m so devoted to public policy – I will NOT let the SOBs win all the time!

MurphTheSurf3 : KT- yes photos of the missiles and launch installations but the nuclear warheads? another story.

KillgoreTrout : Murph, there were photos of these installations, clearly showing a presence of missile launching installations. I don’t know how anybody could have been mistaken about that.

MurphTheSurf3 : OMG…it is midnight and my body is going to curse me in a few hours……thank s for the discussion…..a lways good to exchange views and even to disagree when the company one is in can do this without being disagreeable. Well done.

choicelady : KT – I can’t recall who told me this recently, but there was a false alarm on the West Coast with an HOURS LONG ‘duck and cover’ in the schools. Yup – that’d be a game changer in young people’s lives. It did contribute to the nihilism of our generation indeed.

KillgoreTrout : Murph, there is no doubt that the US was fighting a war for a democracy that didn’t really exist. That is what made the Vietnam war such a total sham.

choicelady : I do agree with all you’ve said, and I have no illusions it was going to be a radical transformation from nuclear silos to grain filled ones! He was a man of his time. But he began making changes such as the test ban treaty that at least in appearance would radically alter the status quo AT HOME. It might not have taken much to rattle the cages of the entrenched powers in fear of what he MIGHT do.

MurphTheSurf3 : KT- here is an interesting idea….investig ation into the Cuban Missile Crisis based in Cuban sources and using KGB archives indicates there may have been no nukes in Cuba or destined for Cuba because Krushchev and his generals did not trust Castro. And recall that whether this was a gambit or not, what provoked it was the Bay of Pigs and our Missiles in Turkey.

KillgoreTrout : I once told my mom that it is no wonder the children of the 60s went so berserk. All the very real threats you mentioned were enough to make any young generation a bit crazy. Remember the civil defense drills, duck and cover? It’s no small wonder that our generation was so into living in the moment. Nobody knew that it wouldn’t be our last moment.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL…My field of history is contemporary U.S. (basically 1900 to the present) with specializing in political and social history. Most of my teaching was in this area.

KillgoreTrout : I don’t see how the danger of Soviet, intermediate thermonuclear weapons at our door step could be blown out of proportion. Eighty million American lives were at stake, just from the missile installations in Cuba alone. Washington was in range of these weapons. I just don’t see how the gravity of the situation could have been blown out of proportion!

MurphTheSurf3 : CL…the Missile Crisis shook JFK to the core. The June ’63 speech at American University announced the development of the Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty and his decision to unilaterally suspend all atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons as long as all other nations would do the same. Kruschev responded positively to it and it led to a Partial Nuclear Test Ban Treaty. As to dismantling the rest of the cold war apparatus? Not much beyond that. Mutually Assured Destruction remained the primary deterrent. Eastern Europe remained walled off from Western Europe. Nato faced down the Warsaw Pact. South America remained a powder keg. And fear of the spreading communist influence led JFK to double the budget request for the Military Assistance Command Vietnam and quadruple the Foreign Assistance Act of 1962 request when it was recertified, to provide “…military assistance to countries which are on the rim of the Communist world and under direct attack.”AND…. his administration “encouraged” the coup that toppled Diem in order to set up a military junta.

choicelady : KT -forgot the U2. Those were just troubling days, weren’t they? I actually hated the 60s – every bit of them -except the Beatles of course. I was so scared so often. From the murders of the civil rights workers to nuclear holocaust, the world just seemed so scary.

KillgoreTrout : Murph, the chilling thing is, that both Krushev and kennedy knew that they were dangerously close to setting off Armeggedon. They knew the monumental risks involved. Niether party could be seen as weak. Kennedy took a huge risk, but I think, deep down, he knew Krushev would not initiate global destruction. You are right that one SOB who didn’t get the word, could have doomed us all. The U2 that was shot down, had to be ignored to prevent further escalation.

choicelady : Murph – I do recall the lagging economy in the early 60s. Did that have a role in Kennedy’s focus on foreign policy to deflect our attention? I think I recall we had a short but surprising recession c. 1961? He peeved the steel companies no end though I no longer can recall how or why. It was very complicated to me as a young teen and hasn’t grown a whole lot less opaque since.

choicelady : Murph – I’d never heard that analysis before. All very thought provoking! Contemporary political history is NOT my strong suit at all. I have done collateral work on the growth of the transnational corporations and the power behind them, but actual governance? Nope.

MurphTheSurf3 : KT and Choice- last thought Again his administration was very young and it had been bogged down in one emergency after another. Frankly, without the missile crisis it is likely that Dem losses in the House would have been significant and the gains in the Senate would have been unlikely. There are those who say that the crisis was ramped up as a means of turning around a souring electorate. Again, we will never know. Like Obama, he had lots of ideas and plans.

choicelady : KT – but look at the backlash. It is so sad to see how little some sectors have changed.

choicelady : KT – I do not dispute that analysis, especially on civil rights.

KillgoreTrout : Obama is also president in a time where the country has advanced beyond what the country was like in the early 60s.

choicelady : Murph – I’m sorry, I don’t think I know what kind of history you taught? Was this period something you’ve researched? I DO pay attention to all you say no matter what!

KillgoreTrout : CL, I have a great regard for president Obama. It’s just that Kennedy’s brilliance and courage was snuffed out before his presidency had the opportunity to make some great change. He certainlly did with his contributions to civil rights, in which Jounson got most of the glory for.

choicelady : Murph – I’ve thought, and this is NOT my field of history, that the Cuban Missle Crisis was a turning point. I could NOT believe the June 1963 speech in which he basically dismantled the entire Cold War responses to everything. It was not just mythical or hypothetical, it was a clear call for ENDING the war machine America had built. I think that may have sealed his fate. He had almost no time to DO anything about it.

MurphTheSurf3 : KT- The blockade made it clear that we were serious about…..well I am not sure….were the warheads already there (some said so)….or were they arriving on those ships (no proof of that)….but it was the kind of gesture that expressed his administrations position. The problem of course is that all it would take is one incident sparked by “some poor son of a bitch who doesn’t get the word” as the Kennedy brothers were fond of noting. The longer the blockade held the more likely that something would happen. Recall the the Central Committee wanted action on a U.S. promise to get missiles stationed in Turkey decommissioned- further Castro was demanding proof positive that the USSR really was on its side. JFK never seemed to understand the chips Krushchev had in the game- forcing him to fold was dangerous- but I think he regarding the gamble as too dangerous.

choicelady : KT – I’d say Obama is not only as sincere but even more competent in terms of achievements. At least, thank goodness, he made it through a whole four years. May he survive the next 3 1/2.

choicelady : Murph – I’d not dispute the romanticizing of Kennedy. I just wonder whether he wasn’t on the way to changing the entire mentality of American foreign policy in ways that were entirely dangerous to entrenched power. We will not know these answers if there is evidence to contradict the accepted view. But your basic take is accurate – he has been mythologized. He has ALSO (thank you Nixon for trying to deflect the attention away from Watergate) been smeared. I still hold with Shirely McLaine who said of JFK’s womanizing v Nixon’s actions, “I’d rather have a president who was doing it to a woman than one who’s doing it to the nation.” Good analysis.

KillgoreTrout : Murph, you are right, we will never know what he could have accomplished if not for his killing. He did do some pretty great things in his limited time, namely his advancement of civil rights, and I think also that he really understood what spirituality and humanity were all about. I may worship him a bit, but I have yet to see a president that was anywhere near as sincere as JFK was.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL…correct I am a history and I look to primary documents and the commentary of contemporaries.. .let’s say the jury remains “hung” in regard to many aspects of JFK’s legacy.

choicelady : KT – I know. I have been deeply troubled by all that ever since. The entire doorframe that apparently had the bullets simply disappeared. It is posited – and we don’t know – that it would have shown the presence of another (at least one) gun. How do you “lose” a DOORFRAME?

KillgoreTrout : Have a good one murph. Hope your crops thrive.

MurphTheSurf3 : KT- some last thoughts. JFK was mostly about “promise” and “possibility”. We will never know what he might have been. His death created the energy that has generated a mythology that colors every question about him. It is not that I do not care for him as much as I am skeptical of the Saint Jack persona which was grafted on to him post assassination.

KillgoreTrout : CL, I really don’t think Sirhan killed Bobby. He did fire 8 rounds from a .22 caliber pistol, but he in front of Bobby, and Bobby’s wounds were clearly inflicted from behind. Powder residue was found in large quantity on the back of Kennedy’s right ear lobe. This suggests that the shot was fired no more than 3 inches from his ear. Sirhan never got that close.

choicelady : Murph – have a wonderful weekend! We all want to see you next week or before as you can pop in. Be well!

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice Just popped back in…the farm is all I do right now. See you around.

choicelady : KT – add up the unanswered questions about Rev. King’s murder, RFK – evidence missing, money from sources never known, people with code names (I think Ray was telling the truth) – it just is terribly scary. The Family had founders in the 1930s who were part of the attempted coup against FDR. They later were THE source that brought Nazis – not aeronautical scientists but full fledged Nazis – into the IS and gave them protection. There is just too much we have not known that begins to knit the threads of a RW conspiracy.

choicelady : KT – I am increasingly of the same belief. Too many other things call his guilt into question.

KillgoreTrout : CL, I remeber calling out to my mom, who was in another room, “Mom, someone just shot Oswald.” She thought I was joking. at first. Amazing to see such serious history, as it actually happened. I still think Oswald was a patsy, just like he claimed to be.

choicelady : KT – when you read the things OUTSIDE the official assassination sources (or even the ones that support our concerns) it opens a huge can of worms. The power of the Dominionists (Sharlet’s “The Family”) coupled with the CIA (Confessions of an Economic Hit Man and many other things) make the possibility of conspiracy real, and the goal – keeping Kennedy from altering the power of the military industrial complex very possible. Oliver Stone’s film may have flaws – Garrison may have been flawed – but much of the evidence is just overwhelming. CHIEF among these issues – why would Oswald who had renounced his citizenship (though it was never formalized) be allowed back in the U.S. without a single debriefing or interrogation? That just NEVER happened to people who’d made declarations of allegiance with the USSR. Just did NOT happen. But it happened with him. Why? Those sorts of things coupled with Lifton’s tracking of evidence tampering is just chilling.

KillgoreTrout : Murph, the naval blockaid most likely prevented war heads from getting to Cuba. But, at the time, we certainly did not know any different. We had to entertain the possibility that some warheads were already there. Krushev did not want world war any more than Kennedy did. It all came down to “saving face,” and still find a peaceful solution.

KillgoreTrout : Have a great weekend Sabreen.

KillgoreTrout : CL, I agree. He did make mention of getting rid of the CIA. I don’t know if that led to his killing, but considering the era, it wouldn’t surprise me.

choicelady : KT – Murph is off. I think he’s being very pragmatic and a pure historian which is his background. He is very evidence based. We – you and I – have simply consulted different sources. None of us will know, for sure. Whatever emerges will come out long after we’re gone if it contradicts the official position.

KillgoreTrout : Murph, I get the impression you didn’t care much for JFK?

choicelady : KT – Yup. Saw it, too, same reaction.

KillgoreTrout : Sabreen I saw Ruby shoot Oswald, live on CBS television. I was very young then, but I knew just what had happened. I couldn’t believe it at first, it was like watching a Hollywood movie or something, but it sure was real world. Just think, a real life murder on national TV. Simply astounding.

choicelady : Good night Murph – where are you ‘at work’ – on the farm or elsewhere? Wherever you go, do so safely and be well. See you soon I hope!

choicelady : KT – I think that is indisputable, and the Zapruder film upholds the timing. There is more here than we’ve been allowed to see. Ironically the BEST work done at the time was by David Horowitz in Ramparts. Too bad he’s gone to the Dark Side. He’s plumb nuts.

MurphTheSurf3 : well I am packing it in…I am at work by 7 AM…..thanks all for an intesting discussion.

KillgoreTrout : Sabreen, Governor Connelly said that he heard a shot and then Kennedy grabbed his throat in pain, and about 2 seconds later there was another shot that stuck Connely in the back. Two distinct shots, two differnt bullets. The Warren reports finding that one bullet struck them both was bogus. I mean, geez, I would think Connelly knew what he was talking about. He was there.

choicelady : Murph – I’m a big supporter of face saving measures!

MurphTheSurf3 : KT Both face saving measures.

choicelady : KT – the missle crisis was the first time I realized the massive destruction we all could face.

KillgoreTrout : I was too young to know what was going on then, but now I see just how close we were to total destruction.

choicelady : Murph – years ago Saturday Review had a long article about the role Pope John XXIII played in stopping the hostilities in the missle crisis. Wonder how it would read today? I am going to see if I can find it somewhere.

KillgoreTrout : The deciding factors came down to two thing. A promise that the US would not invade Cuba and the removal of our obsolete missiles in Turkey.

choicelady : Murph – that’s fascinating!

MurphTheSurf3 : KT…KGB papers which have become available make it clear that the Soviet Central Committee, its Presdium, was maneuvered by Kruschev into backing down out of fear of an American over-reaction. There is a good bit of evidence that there were never nuclear warheads in play.

choicelady : Good night Sabreen – where ARE you in the EDT zone if you don’t mind saying? I used to live there, too.

Sabreen60 : It’s after midnight so, I think I’ll say bye for now. Take care everyone.

choicelady : ‘Night funk! Enjoy the movie!

choicelady : KT – I agree with all that you posited. I think the Bay of Pigs was the first turning point, then the Cuban Missle Crisis. I think Kennedy just saw that things had to change radically, and he was starting to make that happen.

KillgoreTrout : Happy trails funk!

Sabreen60 : Good night Funk!

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- we all have a romantic memory of JFK….I think his death just two years into his first term has problem created the halo effect.

KillgoreTrout : The Bay of Pigs fiasco worked against Kennedy’s handling of the missile crisis. Soviet and American military saw Kennedy as incompetent to find a peaceful solution. The Joint Chiefs were almost begging for an invasion of Cuba. Thank heavens, Bobby and Jack kept their cool and figures out a way to avoid global thermonuclear war. Kruchev was being second guessed by the Soviet military commanders. They clearly wanted war. Adele Stevenson really helped in saving the day.

funksands : I’ll leave you with Frank Schaeffer re: the Faith and Freedom conference. Enjoy «link»

choicelady : Sabreen – all of that and the surrounding deaths. Very scary stuff.

Sabreen60 : Oooh, the typos. I “SAW” Oswald get shot….

choicelady : funk – what movie are you watching? At any rate – go, enjoy, spend time with her! Hope to see you next week!

Sabreen60 : CL, Yes I do. I never bought the “one bullet” theory. If I remember correctly, even the Warren Commission said it was like more than one bullet. I say Oswald get shot on TV and always wondered how Ruby managed to get so close to him. I can’t say I buy Stone’s theory, but I definitely believe it was more to the assassination than the public was lead to believe.

MurphTheSurf3 : KT…13 Days is good drama but largely hero worship. Missiles of October has a lot of good stuff in it including a key role for Kruschev who it seems is the one who pulled the plug because he feared that the leadership in the U.S. simply did not know how to play the game….it cost Nikita his premiership and a forced retirement (but not a sudden death as so often happened with Soviet leaders who were pushed out)

choicelady : Sabreen – not possible! I think of you (before learning your age in 1963) as about 30! We all need to meet someday. We will blow one another’s minds!

funksands : Well, kiddos, I must go. My wifey has a movie starting in a bit. I really enjoyed the conversation tonight. I could get used to Sabreen’s husband being preoccupied and Ad doing whatever it is that he’s doing. Take care and happy father’s day to the fathers out there.

choicelady : Murph – I think, had he lived, JFK was on the way to moving beyond the ‘domino theory’ and the idea of perpetual war. I think that made his assassination almost inevitable. He was evolving so dramatically – and those who benefited from eternal war could not take the risk.

KillgoreTrout : Murph, I recently watched the film “Thirteen days,” and the other ffilm about the Cuban missile crisis, called Missiles of October.

choicelady : Sabreen – I was just a few years older than you when Kennedy was murdered, still in HS, and it’s as if just the horror but not the shape and issues linger with me. I’m not a devoted “assassination buff” but do think there are tons of scary, unanswered questions.

Sabreen60 : CL, Ain’t that the truth. My son is 37.

funksands : CL, like what… 10?

MurphTheSurf3 : KT and Choice….JFK had what Ted Sorenson has called his “Communist Puzzle”. He oversaw the Bay of Pigs, a huge debacle that cost him dearly with the anti-communists. The Cuban Missile Crisis was regarded in the popular mind as a win but many regarded it as a sign that communist incursions in “our” hemisphere were now a part of the Soviet strategy, Central and South America were boiling with revolutionary fervor, and Europe, oh my! A withdrawal from Vietnam, the next domino (in the popular mind and the cold war warrior mindset)….not likely.

funksands : KT, ha ha. I showed my wife your post. She got a good laugh.

choicelady : KT and funk – the ONLY reason I think funk is younger is that he has younger kids and talks about them with the kind of energy we are all long past!

Sabreen60 : CL, KT I was only 14 when Kennedy was killed. But I had become very interested in politics and war. It’s so engraved in my memory. Maybe because my mother had died the year before. But anyway, I probably have forgotten I lot that I knew. I just remember the horrors I saw and then read about all through high school and until Johnson ended the war.

KillgoreTrout : Wow, really funk? From your steady display of wisdom, I would think you were much older! Seriously.

choicelady : funk – I was much,much older at the end.

choicelady : KT – in 1964 I was working as an exhibit demonstrator at the world’s first Picturephone exhibit at the Museum of Science and Industry. A young man came in – he was on his way to Vietnam. Then there weren’t any more. Until August and the Gulf of Tonkin lie got us into it full tilt. LBJ was going to pull out – I think we discussed that here with Nixon’s treasonous pact with the South to prevent LBJ’s peace settlement so Nixon could win the election. No one could out Nixon – he’s been hacked by the CIA. Oh the irony!

funksands : I was in kindergarten at the end of Vietnam. Sorry.

KillgoreTrout : CL, it’s really good.

KillgoreTrout : Very true Sabreen, and I think, it was a clear violation of the 1st amendment. Gagging the press.

choicelady : Sabreen – you know, I don’t recall ever NOT seeing the horrors. CBS did not stop, that I remember. Cronkite would not permit it if he had anything to say about it. That and mags such as TIME kept on keeping on.

choicelady : KT – don’t know it, and I will check it out, thanks.

KillgoreTrout : Wow, thanks for the further info, but it is my firm belief that Kennedy would not have sent combat troops to Nam. I guess we’ll never know, now. I do know that MacNamarra really bent Johnson’s ear in favor of escalating our involvement there.

choicelady : Murph – I do agree he said that, and I even (yikes) remember it, but there is clear evidence on other sides that he would keep arms moving but not boots on the ground. Those who wanted full court press were being denied. That is what scared me with the RW today – those who want boots are being denied. It’s at these moments I actually hope Marx was right – “history repeats itself, the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce.” I would breathe more easily if it would STAY at the level of farce.

Sabreen60 : I remember the Vietnam war so vividly. Every night on the news videos of bloody bodies – alive and dead. Then the powers that be said to stop showing those images on TV. Then future Americans forgot the horrors of war because we no longer saw those images.

KillgoreTrout : CL, I just recently watched a great doc called “God in America.” It was wonderful and very informative. It explains just how the fundies came to such power. You may have seen it already, but if not. you have to check it out. It’s on Netflix streaming.

funksands :

choicelady : funk – LOL!!! I am so sorry!

MurphTheSurf3 : KT…JFK quadrupled aid to Diem, sent in 16000 advisers, dispatched significant CIA resources, and said: In September of 1963, President Kennedy declared in an interview, “In the final analysis, it is their war. They are the ones who have to win it or lose it. We can help them, we can give them equipment, we can send our men out there as advisers, but they have to win it, the people of Vietnam, against the Communists. . . . But I don’t agree with those who say we should withdraw. That would be a great mistake. . . . [The United States] made this effort to defend Europe. Now Europe is quite secure. We also have to participate—we may not like it—in the defense of Asia.”

funksands : CL, that was my nickname in high school “powerfully creepy”.

choicelady : funk – that is powerfully creepy to equate tides and NSA waterboarding. YUCK!

funksands : Ad, “time and tide and the NSA wait for no man” – Chaucer

Sabreen60 : See ya AdLib. Have a good week.

choicelady : Sabreen – someday you and I will talk about those years I spent with these wonderful amazing people. I miss them terribly.

KillgoreTrout : Go easy Ad! Have a great weekend.

Sabreen60 : Cl, You never cease to amaze me!

choicelady : AdLib – don’t waste water! Keep your snorkel handy and come back safely!

choicelady : Sabreen – that’s GREAT! I loved “the Piano” because I was privileged to be part of a group of people for whom those chants and stories were how we wound down the day. I actually cried with the sheer pleasure of seeing that tradition on the stage – and having been included (on the perimeter as all the women were) as the men told the stories, sang the songs, did the chants. It was the happiest time of my life. So I remember it through Wilson. but ALL his work is amazingly wonderful. Cannot get enough,and I refuse to die before I’ve seen them all!

AdLib : Sorry for the quick drop in! Have to run, can’t keep the NSA waiting! Wishing a great evening and weekend to all! Bye!

funksands : CL, sincere thanks. I will check that out.

KillgoreTrout : Murph, I watched a video where Kennedy said that, after all, this is there war. He clearly meant to pull advisors out of Nam. It wasn’t until April of 65 that we sent full combat troops to Nam. I don’t see any Kennedy involvement at that time.

choicelady : funk – if ever you get to see any of them, especially the ones about pre WW II, I cannot recommend them enough. “Ma Rainey’s Black Bottom” is the MOST profound and heartbreaking story of racism ever. Others are just marvelously funny. I love them and worked the “hill district’ at one point, so I know the area about which he writes. Super stuff.

Sabreen60 : WOW CL. I am a fan of August Wilson.

choicelady : Murph – I will read that, thanks. KT – that’s funny!!!

funksands : CL, thank you. I love hearing about artists I’ve never heard of .

KillgoreTrout : CL, you were right, it was Sorenson! I was wrong about the name. I’m hooked on phonics!

choicelady : funk – August Wilson was a marvelous Black playwright who wrote 10 plays, one set in each decade of the 20th C. about Black life in “the Hill District” of Pittsburgh. I intend to see them all- they are amazing. One is “Joe Turner’s Come and Gone”. Sorry – I love his work but it’s not widely known!

MurphTheSurf3 : KT and Choice…forgot the link «link»

KillgoreTrout : I’ll buy that funk.

AdLib : Hey Funk and CL!

Sabreen60 : Hiya AdLib!

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice and KT..here is an example of evidence gone awry. A oft quote set of conversations about pulling the troops out…which get reported as a Vietnam decision but as American Heritage points out- it turns out to be a reference to Mississippi.

choicelady : KT – now I’m feeling brain dead. I think – thought – it was Sorensen (son). That’s what happens when you’re not paying attention anymore!

funksands : Choice….. August Wilson? You got me there….

KillgoreTrout : Ad, I hope you’ve drip dried by now!

funksands : That’s okay Ad, Americans have a short attention span. You’ll be fine in two weeks.

KillgoreTrout : Yeah Cl, I messed up the spelling. Thanks for correcting me. He’s the one I meant.

choicelady : funk – we’re like a August Wilson play, “Ad Lib has Come and Gone.”

AdLib : Had to rush off to Hong Kong after I spilled the beans on the NSA’s use of our pets to spy on us. I am totally in the doghouse now.

KillgoreTrout : Ted Thorenson, Kennedy’s speech writer.

funksands : Hi Ad!

choicelady : Murph – I’m thinking we ought to bone up and have a long talk in November on the – gasp – fiftieth anniversary. FIFTY? Tell me please I’m NOT that OLD!

choicelady : AdLib – glad to see you! You dried out yet?

MurphTheSurf3 : choice…we will need to discuss this at some length.

choicelady : KT – that, besides Rawanda, is one of the most blatant acts of genocide indeed. I have a friend who went there time and again working with women – Croat, Serbian, Muslim – trying to develop programs to support them all. Survivors of the most horrific events, they banded together. When they wrote a ‘women’s constitution’, chief among the rights was “I have the right to sleep”. Because they never could.

funksands : KT, for sure. Don’t get me wrong. I sincerely admire Power very much. She was a Balkan war correspondent and her book “A Problem From Hell” is THE definitive study of the issue. The point I was making is that some people in their zeal to prevent one thing sometimes cause other problems.

Sabreen60 : I stepped away for a minute. Good night gleen and take care.

KillgoreTrout : Murpf, he never got the chance. Someone blew his brains out in Dallas. The escalation of our involvement didn’t occur for nearly 2 years after Kennedy was killed.

AdLib : On the run but had to drop in to say a quick hello to all!

choicelady : glenn – thanks, but it’s YOUR good job! Thank you for always having great contributions!

KillgoreTrout : If there was any genocide going on, it was surely in Bosnia.

funksands : Night Glenn

glenn : CL–forgot to tell you–good job tonight!

KillgoreTrout : Sweet dreams glenn.

choicelady : KT – Sorenson?

KillgoreTrout : Kennedy had talked about removing all military advisors in Vietnam and Laos. BTW, the peace speech was brilliant. A combibed effort by Thorenson and Kennedy.

choicelady : glenn – get good rest. Lovely having you here! Have a great weekend.

choicelady : Murph – whatever doubts I had about that ended when I saw that speech. Lifton’s book, “Best Evidence” makes a powerful case for whoever killed JFK to have been deeply grounded in the highest levels of power. He meticulously notes the massive discrepancies in how JFK’s body and evidence were handled. It is the MOST chilling thing I ever read. Add in several other NON assassination books – Perkins’ “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man”, Sharlet’s “the Family”, and it begins to make sense as you see the levels of power the prowar, extreme RW achieved. I have a personal tidbit that adds to it from the son of a man who was very powerful in TX and had reason to know that LBJ’s brother – NOT LBJ himself – who had ties to “the Family” bragged about “getting” Kennedy. We will never EVER know until we’re all dead and gone.

KillgoreTrout : CL, I have long believed the same thing. I never bought into the theory that it was the mob that killed Kennedy.

glenn : All right, folks. It’s time for me to call it a night. I so enjoy talking about issues with all of you. You make me think, and expand my horizons. Thank you, and good night. Have a good weekend, everyone!

funksands : Sabreen, Syria has been Russia’s only toehold in the Mediterranean and the Middle East since the 60’s. Their ties are really deep. They have $20 billion (est.) in investment in Syria right now.

KillgoreTrout : I wouldn’t use the word genocide in respect to US military involvement. We weren’t out to wipe out a race of people, or a religous group of people. Iraq was inexcusable and many, many died without reason. But I don’t think it was genocide.

funksands : KT, she can come right back and say that Iraq and Afghanistan had nothing to do with genocide, and intervention in Bosnia came after the deed was done.

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice-+- the JFK is pulling us out of Vietnam meme does not really hold up under examination.

choicelady : KT – a few days ago PBS or C-Span showed JFK’s peace speech in June 1963. It has been hypothesized that it was THAT, coupled with his directive to begin pulling out of Vietnam, that led to his assassination. It would have killed the war machine.

KillgoreTrout : Funk, Powers.

KillgoreTrout : CL, it wasn’t very long a period between WWI and WWII, then came Korea, and Vietnam. We are always producing and selling weapons.

choicelady : Murph – that creeps me out.

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice…arms provided to the rebels would come from several channels….cove rtly through third parties directed by the CIA, directly through arms shipments from American arms producers (or foreign products purchased by the Pentagon) paid for by the U.S. and then shipped through mideast countries aligned with the U.S.

choicelady : KT – I think Powers did not see Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan as stopping genocide but STARTING it. I think she’s wrong about Bosnia et al. The rest – yeah. She’s right.

Sabreen60 : Funk el al, Explain to me Russia’s agenda. Why do they support these oppressive governments? They must see some advantage for themselves. I just don’t get it. I can’t just ascribe to them the Bush philosophy that they are just “evil”. They have something to gain, but I haven’t been able to figure out what that is.

choicelady : funk! I did not think of that! Helping Russia find a way out! Well let’s hope so!

funksands : KT, who?

funksands : Choice, I don’t know. Robert Gates has said many times that Russia has been looking for a face-saving way out of Syria for years. I wish we could help them find it. I think constant engagement with them is the only way out of this. Seriously, bribe the Russians to make the call on Assad. Give them something incredibly valuable. Make the call. Sometimes bribes work.

choicelady : KT – after WW I, the defense industry collapsed. No war, no profits. The Cold War after WW II breathed new life into the process and kept it running at full tilt. PBO threatens to slow if not stop the profit mill. So again – who would be the arms suppliers to Syrian rebels – would it be OUR military industrial producers?

KillgoreTrout : How can she even say non intervention? We intervened in Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia…etc. How can she ever make a claim like that?

choicelady : funk – and with Russia on the side of Assad – how can we get that united front to make a difference in Syria?

KillgoreTrout : CL, absolutely. People in the defense industry owe their livelyhood to weapons production. I find it very telling that America always has a military confilct going on somewhere in the world. Death and destruction are the very means of making a living for thousands and thousands in the US. I find it very, very immoral.

funksands : Choice, there is no answer to this. The only tool I have is to examine the environment in which it takes place. Rwanda and Sudan were fairly static, simple situations of inter-tribal and inter-religious slaughter. Syria is multifaceted, complex and incredibly unstable. Saving the Syrian people may not be possible without the US, Russia, and China all putting troops on the ground and putting the whole country in lockdown. Even then, the aftermath is highly unpredictable.

choicelady : funk – I’d disagree with her on her new boss! I remember the Institute for Policy Studies saying that the 300 troops PBO sent into the Congo and Uganda were to ‘take their oil’ when in fact it was to help – FINALLY – with training indigenous troops in resisting Kony and other mass murderers. (You don’t go after oil with 300 troops!) PBO has steadfastly resisted reinstating our role in the School of the Americas, in supporting the RW dictatorships in Honduras, and is making slow careful steps toward the kinds of interventions that block or at least minimize the power of genocidal acts. Is it enough? Of course not. But is it different from previous admins? Absolutely!

Sabreen60 : Funk, I think you are correct. We have entered modern wars for the wrong reasons. Now I think Americans are just plain war weary. Had we not fought dumb wars maybe we would be more amenable to intervene to stop genocide.

glenn : CL–That is the dilemma, isn’t it?

KillgoreTrout : I totally agree funk. It’s one big hornet’s nest.

funksands : It is daunting to acknowledge, but this country’s consistent policy of nonintervention in the face of genocide offers sad testimony not to a broken American political system but to one that is ruthlessly effective. The system, as it stands now, is working. No U.S. president has ever made genocide prevention a priority, and no U.S. president has ever suffered politically for his indifference to its occurrence. It is thus no coincidence that genocide rages on.” – Samantha Power

choicelady : funk – for those of us in the faith community, you’ve nailed the moral deliberation – how can you be anti-violence AND a supporter of ending genocide? The Quakers have wrestled with this for centuries. They have no good answers yet.

glenn : Funk–thanks for the info. about Powers.

Sabreen60 : I don’t know. Unless we can get majority of ME countries and our allies to jump on this wagon, I don’t see how this will turn out in kind of positive way for us.

funksands : Glenn, Power’s life work is about identifying and preventing genocide. She advocates for any solution that will prevent that. You can’t argue with that, but it doesn’t make her a pacifist by any stretch.

choicelady : KT – you can give out gas masks, but many chemical weapons burn the skin or penetrate it. The deaths are SLOW and incredibly awful compared to bombs. I think you’re right on the ‘metalevel’ but people are more horrified by gas and chemicals for their infliction of long durational suffering.

KillgoreTrout : Thanks Murph for that info. The more I learn about all this tells me that this could one tremendous cluster fuck for the US.

choicelady : KT- Assad’s assaults on his own people by any means are horrific.

choicelady : KT – that’s true, of course, but again – gas can go where bombs do not. That’s the scourge of such attacks – NO ONE can hide or survive them.

KillgoreTrout : CL, I’m not sure about that. Chemical weapons need a delivery system. My point is that Assad is killing his people, and the method, to me, doesn’t make all that difference. He clearly has no concern for civilian lives.

funksands : Murph, the Saudis and Qataris are openly sending weapons to extremist jihadist groups inside of Syria. The US could start there.

choicelady : KT – the military industrial complex arose in WW I and has been a driving force every since.

choicelady : funk – that is helpful info about her, thank you.

funksands : Sabreen, she is an interventionist for the right reasons, as her life’s work is bringing light to and preventing genocide. As a result, she is rather hawkish in certain situations. Libya for example.

choicelady : Murph – that is mind boggling. The eternal Shi’a Sunni battles are more perplexing than Northern Ireland. Hezbollah as a supporter of Palestine now becomes problematic in very different ways. This is so scary because we in the West really don’t understand it all – cannot wade through it!

glenn : Funk–why does Samanth Powers think Syria is a “prime candidate for intervention”?

funksands : Hezbollah, Waahabists, the Saudis and Qataris, Iraq, Iran, Israel, Russia, China, Turkey are all in this stew. You CANNOT insert yourself militarily into this puzzle without causing serious consequences.

KillgoreTrout : War is big business. A very large part of our economy and job creators are in the military industrial complex. Gotta keep churning out those objects of death and destruction. It’s good for the economy. I really hate to admit that, but I believe it.

glenn : KT–considering that our veterans administration cannot handle the number of wounded vets we now have, I am not willing to set up more of our soldiers to have to deal with the VA.

Sabreen60 : Funk, I didn’t know that about Samantha. I mentioned earlier that Bill Clinton has another case of foot-in-mouth disease implying that PBO is a wuss if he doesn’t intervene. Hillary has long ago taken a harder line on Syria.

MurphTheSurf3 : Let me repost this as a number of you are discussing it…The Free Syrian Army (Arabic: الجيش السوري الحر‎, al-Jaysh as-Sūrī al-Ḥurr, FSA) is an armed opposition structure operating in Syria during the Syrian civil war. As of December 2012, Islamist or jihadist groups are fighting the government in Syria. These groups include al-Nusra Front (with 8,000–12,000 volunteers) and Ahrar al-Sham with several thousand volunteers. They have allegedly fought alongside the secular rebel groups a number of times. Some jihadists have also allegedly joined other FSA-aligned groups. Many have connections to the Al Qaeda network. Most of the FSA’s members are Sunni Arabs—Syria’s largest community, which is now facing widespread Shiite support for the Syrian government. Hezbollah is now involved. is a Shi’a Islamic militant group and political party based in Lebanon. It receives financial and political support from Iran and Syria, and its paramilitary wing is regarded as a resistance movement throughout much of the Arab and Muslim worlds. There are large numbers of Hezbollah in Syria acting in support of Assad and his government. Then there is Iran, and Russia, and China….

choicelady : funk – that’s scary. Do we know what she means by ‘intervention’ ?

funksands : Samantha Power’s nomination to the UN further complicates matters. In her view Syria is a prime candidate for intervention.

choicelady : KT – ever since WW I, we have acted differently about chemical and biological weapons since they do a very different kind of harm. No foxholes can protect you. Doing this to civilians is the same – it is a wholesale slaughter from which no one can escape. Dead is NOT the same – think of London’s subways during the blitz. Bombs could not kill them. Gas would have killed them ALL.

Sabreen60 : glenn, we know there ARE good guys, but how do we tell them from Al qaeda or wannabes.

glenn : KT–good question. Why do we draw that line?

KillgoreTrout : Sabreen, that is my concern as well. Glenn, that is another aspect of this mess. Are we really willing to have more US military killed?

KillgoreTrout : CL it is a puzzle to me why a line was drawn between chemical weapons and the use of conventional weapons. I mean. dead is dead, no matter the means. Why do we draw such a line?

funksands : I always thought Sudan was a good country to intervene in because the situation was not terribly complex and verged on genocide. Syria however is a Frankenstein’s monster of competing factions, countries, sectarians and interests. This is nature’s way of saying “do not touch”.

glenn : Sabreen–Isn’t that the problem in a nutshell? “We really don’t know who the good guys are.” All we know are the bad guys.

choicelady : glenn – I agree about the troops which is why PBO is not about to put them into battle. ENOUGH already! How can McCain and the GOP desire more death, injury, chaos for Americans? That’s just so cold!

Sabreen60 : KT, I sure hope that’s not going to happen. We really don’t know who the good guys are.

glenn : KT–agree about the innocents–but what about our troops? They are innocents, too.

funksands : $4 billion in a UN aid package will help a lot more, but Jordan is going to get sucked under unless they get a lot of help.

choicelady : glenn – I think it’s both refugee aid and attempts to give ‘rebels’ whoever they are some help. The proof – and I’m glad PBO waited to get this – that gas attacks had occurred just make our isolation impossible from humane standpoints.

KillgoreTrout : I agree glenn, but those innocents still in Syria face a very dim future. It’s the innocents that make my views on all of this so difficult.

MurphTheSurf3 : Funk…I just copied, pasted and archived your Syria Thumbnail. Bravo

Sabreen60 : Funk, No just out of the room to watch a movie. I can chat and drink my Friday night Patron in peace

funksands : Well, we’ve already put together a $100 million food and aid package for Jordan and Turkey, but there are millions and millions of refugees on their border. Almost 1 million of them are IRAQI refugees that fled their country several years ago.

glenn : Funk and KT–so shouldn’t the US be doing something to help the refugees? I would much rather do something to help them rather than get involved in Syria itself.

KillgoreTrout : I guess the current plan is to set up a limited no fly zone, to protect civilians. I’m not sure what that even means.

choicelady : funk – apparently Syrian refugees are invading ALL kinds of nations. It’s horrible for them and the host countries.

funksands : I heard something from the SecState’s office the other day: Syrian refugees now make up 20-25% of the TOTAL POPULATION of Jordan. Holy crap…..

choicelady : KT – I’d not heard about the 8000 troops in Jordan. Wow.

funksands : (bowing)

funksands : Hey KT!

choicelady : funk – I think I never heard foreign policy so beautifully summed up before! It’s funny but very powerful!

KillgoreTrout : Hey funk!

glenn : Funk–like that analogy!

funksands : Hi Glenn! I’m good thanks. Ready for the weekend.

funksands : If Syria was a hitchhiker, it would be wearing a hockey mask and holding a chainsaw. Sometimes you just need to keep driving.

KillgoreTrout : Sabreen, we now have 8,000 troops in Jordan, waiting for further instructions. I guess one plan is to bring Syrian rebels to Jordan where the US can “train,” them.

glenn : Hi Funk–how are you?

choicelady : funk – I’ve been thinking of you and your Solstice picnic. Hope the weather is good so you can read outside until 10 pm. Are you doing it again this year?

funksands : Hey Sabreen. You send your husband away again tonight?

glenn : CL–I understand what you’re saying, and I agree on one level. How can we as a supposedly compassionate and free nation stand by and watch another nation tear itself apart? On the other hand, I think about how I would feel if another country tried to intervene in our politics. To me, therein lies the problem that President Obama faces. And, as has already been said, I would not have to be the one to make that decision.

funksands : Choice, fabulous. Beautiful night tonight. Probably be light until 9:30.

Sabreen60 : Mr. Funksands, hiya doing?

choicelady : funk! How are you? How’s life in the wilds of northern WA?

choicelady : Sabreen – I agree about PBO’s good judgement.

funksands : Good evening folks!

Sabreen60 : I don’t think PBO will put boots on the ground in Syria. I trust his judgement which is why I voted for him. But aside from that we don’t have the boots.

KillgoreTrout : CL, that is a big concern that I have. Syria could be a proxy war between Russia and the US.

choicelady : KT – those “End Times” folks may well see themselves as “God’s little helpers” and create more fresh hell for Obama and us along their path to glory.

choicelady : glenn and KT – the problem as always is that NOT getting involved is ‘decision by indecision’ just like not voting. Sometimes there are NO alternatives that are positive, only ones that are less awful.

KillgoreTrout : CL, I agree. There are those that are just itching for the “End Times.”

glenn : KT–As one isolationist to another, I completely agree about not getting involved in another country’s civil war.

choicelady : KT – AMEN!!! Syria, not Iraq and Afghanistan, may be our latter day equivalent to Vietnam.

KillgoreTrout : Another consideration concerning our involvement in Syria, is Russia. Russia seems to be supporting Assad. This smells an awful lot like Vietnam to me. I question the wisdom of getting involved in a civil war in a foreign nation.

choicelady : KT – not to add to this problems, but it scares the bejeezus out of me that the ‘unseen hand’ is the Dominionists who WANT an Armageddon. They hate Obama for NOT making things worse so there are excuses for wholesale war of all against all. But if we make our way through the landmines of Syria, this will be good for the world – and really dangerous for Obama at home with these End Times zealots.

glenn : Murph–you always know the facts. It sounds like a morass to me, and something we should definitely not get involved in. But, IMO, that has always been the problem with US involvement in the Middle East–sorting out who is who, and sorting out when to leave.

choicelady : Sabreen – there are so many leftovers from Bush/Cheney it could be anyone.

choicelady : Murph – I am as impressed with your analysis as I’ve always been with Khirad’s. I will keep that and read it more thoroughly. I think, unlike Egypt et al.,that this is THE most dangerous world crisis we face precisely from the factionalization you’ve explained. VERY scary stuff.

KillgoreTrout : CL, McCain, like all the others in the PNAC are just itching for another war in the Middle East. Their whole political philosophy is centered around American intervention in the region.

choicelady : All – I have a serious, not silly, question. If we supply arms to a group we thing is less evil than others, WHO provides the weapons? Is it our government directly or do we broker with arms dealers? I honestly don’t know that.

Sabreen60 : CL, McCain was on national TV leaking info that his “source” gave him about weapons to Syria. I have stopped watching MSNBC, but did turn on Rachel long enough to hear her talk about all the leaks coming out in the last couple of weeks. Sure seems like someone in the Obama administration is a saboteur.

glenn : CL–sure hope you’re right about PBO not dragging us into another war. I was glad to see that he is not going with the “no-fly zone” option.

MurphTheSurf3 : The Free Syrian Army (Arabic: الجيش السوري الحر‎, al-Jaysh as-Sūrī al-Ḥurr, FSA) is an armed opposition structure operating in Syria during the Syrian civil war. As of December 2012, Islamist or jihadist groups are fighting the government in Syria. These groups include al-Nusra Front (with 8,000–12,000 volunteers) and Ahrar al-Sham with several thousand volunteers. They have allegedly fought alongside the secular rebel groups a number of times. Some jihadists have also allegedly joined other FSA-aligned groups. Many have connections to the Al Qaeda network. Most of the FSA’s members are Sunni Arabs—Syria’s largest community, which is now facing widespread Shiite support for the Syrian government. Hezbollah is now involved. is a Shi’a Islamic militant group and political party based in Lebanon. It receives financial and political support from Iran and Syria, and its paramilitary wing is regarded as a resistance movement throughout much of the Arab and Muslim worlds. There are large numbers of Hezbollah in Syria acting in support of Assad and his government. Then there is Iran, and Russia, and China….

choicelady : All – if there is ONE things I believe about this president it is that he will NOT drag us into another war.

choicelady : Murph – sorry, I think I over-reacted. See what exposure to hair on fire folks will do to one? I take your point, thank you.

KillgoreTrout : Sabreen I agree. Obama has some very hard decisions to make. I know I certainly don’t have the answer. Part of me is isolationist in regard to yet another war in the Middle East.

glenn : Murph–agree completely with you about people like Greenwald only in it for the story and then walking away. In Greenwald’s case, walking away all the way to somewhere in South America–I think it’s Venezuela, but I’m not sure.

choicelady : Sabreen – gotta agree about NOT wanting PBO’s job!

choicelady : glenn and KT – sometimes there are just NO good answers. Some other bloggers pointed out that McCain had had photo ops with some pretty despicable people! But if anyone can walk the fine line, I really do think it’s Obama.

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- agree with your reading of GG and Snowden….my comment is meant to address the system….I suggest that a system like I propose would make actions like Snowdens so easily labeled criminal, exploitative and irresponsible that anyone doing so would be easily subject to the kind of penalties that will put a plug in the leaking. AND I think that people like GG need to be looked into – I think they mislead people like Snowden and Manning to get a story and then walk away.

KillgoreTrout : CL, I have mixed feelings too. Supposedly, the Syrian rebels and also involved with al Qaida. I worry about very deadly weapons getting into the hands of the rebels, but I also recognize what a monster Assad is. As usual, it will be the innocents that will get caught in the crossfire.

choicelady : glenn – when Snowden heralded Russia as a bastion of liberty and free speech, over at The People’s View I simply said, “Snowden? Meet Pussy Riot.” I knew a wealthy privileged Brit back in the 60s who sneered at the U.S.as a place of repression. He then went to Cuba – and was jailed for criticizing Castro. He kinda shut up after that.

glenn : KT–I think we should stay out of Syria. But, then, I think we should not be involved in wars anywhere in the world. I do think I’m an “isolationist” . And, in the case of Syria, I’m a little “gun-shy” about being on the side of the rebels in Syria. Only because, historically, when the US has intervened in the Middle East, it never seems to turn out well for us.

Sabreen60 : KT, First let me say I wouldn’t want President Obama’s job for all the money in the world. Syria is really hard, IMO. So many people have been killed. It’s a civil war, so should we just let them kill each other? Do we know who we’re arming. Bill & Hillary think we need to do more. I read an article on a blog that said Bill’s comparison of Syria to Kosovo was dumbest thing Clinton has ever said.

choicelady : KT – I’m watching what Obama is doing. I’m not sure yet how I feel about it, but I am oddly confident he will find the best path he can. CAN being the operative word.

choicelady : glenn – thanks, I will read that.

choicelady : Murph – Snowden wasn’t a whistleblower, IMHO. He is an opportunist, probably set this up (GG was working with him two months BEFORE he got the job with Booz Allen) and has not done anything but create potential harm. He gave over our intelligence info – such as he had it – to China. That just is not helping anything. He and GG and the hair on fire EmoProgs are paying NO attention to the changes the courts AND Obama have made in affirming protections for our rights. They won – and we’re still angry. I know the difference between being hacked (my 2003 experience) and NOT being personally attacked (this metadata dump). I am not impressed with phony “exposes” that actually lie about the degree of invasion against us.

glenn : CL–Read an article on AlJazeera that says the Chinese communist party wrote an “op-ed” piece that Snowden should be allowed to stay in HK so the communists can “get information” from him. I’m paraphrasing a little–but that was the essence of the piece.

KillgoreTrout : How do you folks feel about US intervention in Syria? Kalima and i had a good exchange about that.

KillgoreTrout : Martin said that it was Park’s brave stand that made him decide to take up his work, recognizing the religion could bring about freedom.

Sabreen60 : Hey glenn. I’m ok. A little tired of dealing with the hair-on-fire crowd and having to watch them walk backwards. Also, Bill Clinton has gotten on my last nerve in his attempts to mirco-manage President Obama and intimating that PBO is a wuss if he doesn’t intervene in Syria.

MurphTheSurf3 : Snowden, NSA, Secret Surveillance Courts, Electronic Malpractice….i t is all a muddle. To me the key issue is this- there is not a clear path for whistle blowers in the federal government. Inspector Generals embedded in departments are not trusted in matters like this. We need an independent office, probably nested in the Legislative but with Judiciary oversight, and working relationship with the Executive that lets any federal employee know where to go, what to do, and that they will be protected IF they have found something. If they find nothing…..they are also protected under the mantra of better safe than sorry. THEN there should be penalties for media based exposure like Snowden (and Manning and others have done) that would so deter foolhardiness that only a true martyr would seek it out.

choicelady : Sabreen – that is the point. Also that Snowden waltzed in, took things, departed, living in a luxury hotel in Hong Kong. The Civil Rights folks lived hard and dangerous lives for what they believed. We are two days past the 50th anniversary of Medgar Evars murder – Snowden is living with room service. There simply is no comparison.

glenn : Sabreen–you said it so much more succinctly (sp) than I!

KillgoreTrout : If it weren’t for Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King may have never taken up the cause that he did.

glenn : Murph–your crops sound yummy! I love it when zucchini and squash come in–I make a mean squash casserole!

Sabreen60 : CL, I love reading your comments on TPV and agree with the person who said you should write articles.

choicelady : glenn – ABL and the Three Chicks made a point that civil rights people stayed, yes, AND were brutalized and DIED for what they did. Snowden worked 3 months then ran away, seems to have unlimited income, and is betraying his nation. Not comparable to them – or to me.

KillgoreTrout : Lovely to be here CL. Nice to see you hosting.

Sabreen60 : CL, Chris Hayes is a doofus. When did Rosa Parks or MLK hightail it out the country?

glenn : Hey KT and Sabreen–how are you all?

choicelady : ‘KT! Welcome! We are fine so far – lovely to have you here.

choicelady : Sabreen – GG is going to the dogs for his lies.

choicelady : Sabreen! Welcome! Love seeing you over at TPV and glad to see you here.

glenn : Choice–You know, that reference to Snowden being compared to MLK really makes me angry. The only thing that is the same between the two is that they spoke out against something they thought was wrong. However, MLK, IMO, had the “courage of his convictions” and stayed here in the U.S., and understood the consequences of his speaking out. MLK was willing to suffer those consequences–hi s jail terms, etc. IMHO, Snowden is a coward for fleeing the country.

choicelady : Murph – WOW! That is amazing and wonderful to read! Do you ship? I’m drooling. I did NOT inherit my father’s amazing capacity to grow anything. I kill it off, no effort. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, beats homegrown tomatoes. I am in awe.

KillgoreTrout : Glad tidings Sabreen!

KillgoreTrout : Hey Planeteers, what’s the rumpus?

Sabreen60 : Hello good folks. I had to read comments before speaking. NSA – seems Greenwald is now declaring he never said “direct access”. Problem is he said “direct access”. This story is falling apart bit by bit.

choicelady : glenn – psoriasis is really a tough thing. It looks disgusting and apparently is extremely uncomfortable, but yeah – sisters would NOT be the most supportive people in teen years!

MurphTheSurf3 : My crops….strawbe rries- boom crop Selling lots locally. The weather really suited them. Blueberries coming in now and seem abundant. Tomatoes (5 kinds), cucumbers (3 kinds), zucchini, squash (3 kinds), peppers (4 kinds), growing well now that I have licked the bugs, and the fungi. I also grow mushrooms in to small barns- all year round- in the dark- 5 kinds. Asparagus, peas, beans and beets complete the list.

choicelady : glenn and Murph – I am on the side of Angry Black Lady and Three chicks etc. who ripped Hayes a new one.

glenn : Oh choice–speaking about the heartbreak of psoriasis–my brother had a really bad case of it when he was a teenager. And, my brother being my brother, loved to wave his “scabby” arms in our faces. And my sisters and I being my sisters and I, screamed and got grossed out on cue!

choicelady : glenn – I would NOT have thought we could talk about it a week ago. The revelations about Snowden’s perfidy have suddenly made this a lot better. There is a sidebar that came out of Chris Hayes’ comment that Snowden is equal to Rev. MLK, Jr, and the firestorm from Black commentators and blog leaders has been fierce and furious. But even that has moved back to more profound concerns about the balance of security and privacy – a very good thing, IMHO.

glenn : Choice and Murph–I think AdLib brought up some interesting points regarding NSA. Do you all think it’s possible for Americans to have a productive conversation about it, or is it all going to be finger pointing and partisanship?

choicelady : Murph – if you’re not engaged in something deep, can you update us on your crops?

choicelady : glenn – next we’ll be discussing the heartbreak of psoriasis…

glenn : Choice–exactly!

choicelady : glenn – LOL!!! That just shows how amazing PPOV is!

glenn : Choice–wellll– in a way. We were talking about grants and peanut breath. Two topics that it is doubtful you’d find on other less progressive sites.

choicelady : Murph and glenn – I KNOW I’m supposed to suggest a topic, but I’d rather leave it to you. Anything burning you wish to discuss? It’s just the two of you – let ‘er rip!

choicelady : glenn – there’s a topic?

glenn : Choice–I must admit, my reference was a little obtuse and off topic.

choicelady : glenn – I missed the NSA reference entirely! Whoooossssh – that’s your comment flying over my head!

choicelady : glenn – I will indeed clean up ‘peanut breath’. My dentist said that’s THE worst!

choicelady : Murph – you sound like our grants manager. When I was whining, she pointed out she has to READ all the stuff 48 different groups submit. I really had to admit her situation was worse. I HATE when that happens!

glenn : Choice–I was trying to be “funny” and referring to the NSA.

choicelady : glenn – I can see everyone in the header – it’s just the three of us at the moment. AdLib is off to his retake.

MurphTheSurf3 : choice- well happy about not rewriting….oth er stuff is still tough…

glenn : Choice–not trying to be personal, but I hope you have plenty of toothpaste, or at least mints! That is, for when you’re all done eating and drinking!

choicelady : Murph – damn, and here I was going to offer you an unpaid opportunity to redo my grants for me. Well, if you insist on being happy…

choicelady : glenn – washing the peanut butter down with Chardonnay. It’s NOT a combo I’d advise…

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- happy I am out of the write, rewrite business.

choicelady : glenn – I am TRYING to take some time off, but once again the grant managers for the health care grant demanded a significant revision in our proposal. I’m pretty sick of rewriting stuff. So I am doubly glad to be here tonight with REAL people, REAL issues.

glenn : Hey Murph–Well, at least Choice knows we’re here. No telling who else is, right?

glenn : Choice–I’m doing well.

choicelady : Hey AdLib – lovely to see you. Are you before or after your retake on the waterboarding? “Ready for my closeup Mr. deMille…” wet rags and all?

glenn : Choice–oops peanut BUTTER

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- yes, and the plants are doing well.

glenn : Hey Choice–What are you washing the peanut down with?

choicelady : Hi glenn – how are you?

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- glenn and I sneaking up on you….Boo!

choicelady : Oh Murph – that weather report is SUCH good news!

choicelady : Turn my back for a snack for ONE moment, and everyone comes in the door! Hi all – no one was here so I went out for peanut butter toast. Glad to see you!

MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn. Weather patterns have returned to norm. No big storms. Regular light rain every three or four days.

glenn : Choice Lady–what’s new and exciting with you?

glenn : Murph–Are you dry? Have the storms abated in your area, or are you still getting them? We had a helluva storm last night here in GA. Two tornadoes, driving rain, and some hail. Luckily, no damage to the immediate area in which I live.

MurphTheSurf3 : Health is good, thanks Glenn.

glenn : Hey Murph–how goes your health?

glenn : Good evening Choice, Murph, and as Murph says, AdLib in absentia.

MurphTheSurf3 : Howdy Choice and a shout out to Ad Lib in absentia….

choicelady : Thank you dear AdLib – may you dry out well, get shot ONLY in electronic terms, and come back to us soon. I do appreciate the observation I’m occasionally peccable. A life goal reached. Welcome everyone – be sure to say “Hi” or whatever floats your boat, speaking of watery things. See you at 7:00 PDT or much later everywhere else.

AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. The NSA said that they needed a re-shoot of my being waterboarded for the Extended Blu Ray version so unfortunately, and for the last time for a very long time, I will be handing over the moderating reins tonight to the impeccable (well, maybe a little peccable) and always remarkable, Choicelady. Have a great Vox tonight and I will definitely see you here next week!