Vox Populi – 11-04-2022

Vox Populi, our weekly live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7:00pm PDT. Hope to see you then! AdLib 6 hours ago

Hey Ad how’s it going? twilson117 5 hours ago

Hey TW! AdLib 5 hours ago

Things are going okay this way. How about you? AdLib 5 hours ago

Enjoying the weather here taking things one day at a time. twilson117 5 hours ago

Another good jobs report, the unemployment rate went up to 3.7% but growth in all the areas that get measured. twilson117 5 hours ago

Getting a little cooler here which is good since the Santa Ana winds came in which sometimes cause fires. AdLib 5 hours ago

I hope the reality under Dems in power will overcome the lies and propaganda of the RW and MSM. AdLib 5 hours ago

I understand this time of year can be the fire season for you out on the west cost, let’s hope that doesn’t happen. twilson117 5 hours ago

Ad MSM keep crying the blues twilson117 5 hours ago

The colder weather definitely helps…but it’s not MA cold. Just in the 50s at night. AdLib 5 hours ago

Believe it or not the temp out here has been in the low 60’s twilson117 5 hours ago

I’m fed up with all the doom and gloom, I know it’s to pump up their ratings. It does just the opposite with me, I don’t need to watch or read media that is tipping the scale just for ratings. AdLib 5 hours ago

I think we might just get a couple of major snow storms in Jan and Feb, we’re over due, but if it doesn’t happen it wouldn’t bother me at all. twilson117 5 hours ago

Wow, that’s pretty nice! It’s 70s here during the day, 50s at night but we’ll see if we get warm spells, Climate Change has changed everything so we’ve had some very warm Winters. AdLib 5 hours ago

I voted yesterday twilson117 5 hours ago

Congrats!!! AdLib 5 hours ago

It was easy. No crowds, and on my way out thanked the poll workers. I don’t believe we’re going to have any problems here but you never know. twilson117 5 hours ago

I completed my sample ballot and here, you can use a QR code at the polling place to quickly select everything on your ballot that you picked on your sample ballot. I always like to prep so my wife and daughter have my picks to use wherever they want to. AdLib 5 hours ago

I was listing to Lawarence Odonnell talking about the ballot he was filling out, it sounded like it was pretty long. twilson117 5 hours ago

I think MA should be okay for the most part but in really red areas in many states, especially swing states like FL, AZ, PA, MI, etc., I think there could be a lot of intimidation and interference at polling places. I heard some Repubs are promoting for Repubs to send in their ballots with fake signatures then claim their ballot was stolen and proof of fraud from mail in ballots. AdLib 5 hours ago

Agree with you on that. Repubs determined to dismantle democracy twilson117 5 hours ago

It was a very long ballot, over 50 votes including propositions that are local and state, judges, city offices, etc. Took a long time! AdLib 5 hours ago

Yes, that’s what he said. You all have stay on top of a lot of stuff. twilson117 5 hours ago

Murph is in the house!! twilson117 5 hours ago

Hey Murph how is going in your state? twilson117 5 hours ago

It seems a majority of Americans recognize that Repubs are trying to bury democracy but these polls the MSM waves around says they don’t. I will wait to see what really happens, as I’ve said here many times, I think polls have become undependable for a while. AdLib 5 hours ago

Hey Murph! AdLib 5 hours ago

Ad, not paying attention to the polls. They’re all over the place. twilson117 5 hours ago

TW – I had to carve out an hour minimum to go through the whole ballot and research judges and all the ballot issues. AdLib 5 hours ago

TW – Same here! Though I am inundated with emails from the many candidates we’ve contributed to. Don’t blame them but we have donated a decent amount already. AdLib 5 hours ago

Ad and TW…..Missouri is Misery……the knives are out. Il….my candidate should win. I am doing some phone banking for the Dem Party as they direct. MurphTheSurf3 5 hours ago

Nikki should Kikki Ass. AdLib 5 hours ago

Ad was watching Michael Moore he seems to think Dems will keep house and senate and he is telling people not to pay attention to the polls. Seems he sees a something the pollsters don’t twilson117 4 hours ago

Our Ballot here is has only a few contests with Dems and GOP…..5….10 with only GOP. 4 Constitutional Amendments and 1 callfor a National Constitutional Convention. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Murph – I wonder what states like MO will be like as they are dominated by destructive madmen? I don’t expect the cultists to ever wake up but the oppression of citizens would seem to change the US to a virtual authoritarian Confederacy attached to a democratic Union. AdLib 4 hours ago

Murph, it’s got to be tough on you. twilson117 4 hours ago

Ad…Nikki deserves a win. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

I am planning on closing down the association….all of the members agree. It is time to accept the gruesome reality. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

TW – I hope Moore is right, it’s what my gut is telling me, the majority want women to have rights and democracy to continue. AdLib 4 hours ago

Murph what do want to admen in your constitution? twilson117 4 hours ago

Ad, that is one of the things Moore is saying. Hey, he called the Clinton Trump election. twilson117 4 hours ago

I overheard four women mocking the Dems for their Abortion “scare tactics” claiming that all will be well. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Murph – As TW says, it has to be a burden to watch elections in MO but I hope your good work for Nikki balances elections for you a little. Most Americans are good people and do care about supporting good people and good agendas, the minority are hateful pawns. AdLib 4 hours ago

TW…there is a law in Mo. that requires this be on the ballot every 10 years. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Murph – What do you mean? The association is being blackballed out of existence? AdLib 4 hours ago

Murph really? That’s interesting, does that have something do with them being allowed statehood? twilson117 4 hours ago

TW – Yep, I was annoyed at Moore in 2016 until the election then thought, he must have more insights from being boots on the ground than me. But 2016 was a corrupted election due to Russia’s involvement, anyway you slice it and Comey’s last minute re-opening of the Hillary investigation sure seemed to be the final corrupt move that doomed her. AdLib 4 hours ago

Ad…it is becoming foolish to antagonize those who will be able to act without governmental checks. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

TW unsure of what you are asking “statehood?” MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Murph – Those same four women no doubt mock victims of racism, anti-Semitism, homophobia, etc. The whole tip off about Repub women is an utter lack of empathy for anyone who isn’t a white, straight man. AdLib 4 hours ago

Murph I was referring the MO compromise twilson117 4 hours ago

Ad yep a lot went wrong in 2016 the most of all getting the fat blob Trump twilson117 4 hours ago

Murph – How is an independent association antagonizing anyone? Like anyone who wasn’t a member of the Nazi Party was attacking Nazis? AdLib 4 hours ago

TW……maybe I am too tired but I may need more coaching from you on your questin. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Ad…our very existence is a source of antipathy. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Murph – You mentioned that every 10 years, a measure has to be put on the ballot. I think TW is asking what that measure is. AdLib 4 hours ago

OH…the measure is to add Mo. to the list of states that are calling for a Constitutional Convention. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Image a constitution convention with those bastards at the helml. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Murph I was wondering if having to put your constitution up from amendments every 10 if it was a condition for them to gain statehood prior to the Civil War the MO compormise. twilson117 4 hours ago

Murph – But what are the farmers who aren’t white supposed to do, join racist MAGA co-ops? AdLib 4 hours ago

TW…oh…no…this was a action passed by the state assembly when John Ashcroft was a big player here. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Ad…..the idea of a co-op, association, is, in and of itself, abhorrent (socialist!) MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Murph – The evil people including Koch, Mercers, Thiel, etc. behind the Constitutional Convention push may get close but there is no way for them to get the full number they need. AdLib 4 hours ago

How many states have signed on to push for a constitutional converntion? twilson117 4 hours ago

Aren’t they getting close to the number needed? twilson117 4 hours ago

34 are need and 28 have called for it. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Murph – Exactly but we know there is no capacity for shame in the MAGA GOP, they happily accept Covid relief checks, tax credits, SS and Medicare while hollering out of the other side of their mouth how socialism is evil. AdLib 4 hours ago

TW – I think they can get up to 30 or so but they can’t get to 34 states. Thank God. AdLib 4 hours ago

Ad…..their duplicity and dishonesty knows no bounds. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Murph, so they only need 6 more. The way things are going in the country that’s a bit scary. twilson117 4 hours ago

Ad say more on why you think they can’t get the required number twilson117 4 hours ago

Guys I have to say that my anger, dismay, disappointment and disgust are at their highest levels since I first became involved in elections. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

dismay, disappointment and disgust = dystopia MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Murph I truly believe this set of Republicans want to end democracy as we know it. As we’ve discussed in the past it all about power for them nothing else. twilson117 4 hours ago

Murph – Nope, it is a real shame that the wealthy and corporations don’t see the blowback from allowing or supporting the cementing of cruelty, dishonesty and bigotry into swaths of this country. And meanwhile, the Mississippi River is dwindling down severely, potable water around the nation is reducing greatly, Climate Change will require states and people to work closer together and this division that the wealthy and powerful are funding will damage everyone soon. AdLib 4 hours ago

It looks like the school board here is going to be seized. The superintendant and five principals have made it clear that they will resign. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Pushing toward nationalism and autocracy. twilson117 4 hours ago

Ad…..to see the nation so reduced as the crucible for a resurgence of democracy is horrifying…..this is the path to third world living. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

TW – Here’s a map of states supporting constitional convention, They have 19 that have passed (in green) others that have proposals (blue) and nowhere near enough to get to 34. AdLib 4 hours ago

I see the life draining from my fellow dems here. All believe that the Valentine campaign is the foreshadowing of all dem activism….a bought and paid for sham. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Ad well that is a little more comforting. twilson117 4 hours ago

Link to map of states signed on: https://conventionofstates.com/states-that-have-passed-the-convention-of-states-article-v-application AdLib 4 hours ago

There is a rumor afoot that Obama is being urged to run again……a last hope? MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Murph he can’t run again he’s had his two terms. twilson117 4 hours ago

Murph – I don’t know what the future holds for MO and other MAGA dominated states. Will the suffering of the people under extremists ever change their loyalty or will the cultists just swallow explanations as they do now, that everything bad in their lives is stillt he fault of Dems and everyone who isn’t white and a cultist for MAGA? AdLib 4 hours ago

TW…..yep….but that is how much grabbing at straws there is. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Ad….I think you have named it well. And sadly. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Murph they are gabbing at straws if they are hoping for that to happen twilson117 4 hours ago

Murph – This is the plan in red states. Destroy education, fill failing schools with propaganda, use gerrymandering to prevent democracy from unseating them from power and steal the assets of the people and the state for the wealthy, their benefactors. AdLib 4 hours ago

Ad….that is how I read it. I will turn inward. Marshall my personal resources and watch the suffering. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

All, democracy is the worse form of governing but we have to consider all the other which are far worse. That was the opening to the TV series Slattery people. It’s proven to be true today, because Trump and his horde of election deniers are pushing for on party rule which will end the free enterprise system they value so much. Free enterprise doesn’t exist without a democracy. twilson117 4 hours ago

Murph – Extrapolating out from what we see now, it would seem a greater balkanization of the U.S. is inevitable, at least for the foreseeable future. Those who want to live in “free states” will move there, those who like the racist and misgonyst based states that oppress the people and their rights will stay their willingly or unwillingly if they lack the money to move. The divide would seem to only get worse and in a sensible world, red states will lose valuable population and blue states will gain. AdLib 4 hours ago

Ad I you’re describing something I’ve been fearing for a long time another civil war, because that can’t work. twilson117 4 hours ago

Ad….your scenario is quite possible….but remember that the GOP plans to retake the WH…..in two years and to take the House and Senate now….and with control of the state political process that allows them to dictate the results as they like them I fear that red gulag will be national. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

TW – I see it as less of a civil war in terms of war but like an East and West Germany, where an invisible wall seperates democracies from dictatorships and states where citizens have rights and where they do not. AdLib 4 hours ago

TW….a civil war……I suspect its first stages will look like the Vietnam War protests. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Ad, if that happens it’s only a matter of time before some level of conflict breaks out. There is no way the states can sustain themselves under such a constrcut. twilson117 4 hours ago

Murph – I can guarantee that Blue states will not surrender to a Repub authoritarianism. There will be a New Civil War if the presidency is stolen and dictates come from that dictator to NY, CA, MA, etc. We will not cooperate. AdLib 4 hours ago

Ad…..and the federal troops will be called out….. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Murph – Nope, Federal troops are forbidden from operating on U.S. soil and Generals and leadership up and down the military will either refuse or turn against such an Admin. AdLib 4 hours ago

The military should be more feared by an authoritarian dictator of the U.S. than the people. AdLib 4 hours ago

Ad…that is only if the integrity of the military is maintained…think of an army of Flynns. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Murph, yes they would, but I have a feeling some will do like they did with the civil war broke out. I believe there is a large contingency of military who will want to follow the Trump like idiots .s twilson117 4 hours ago

But they aren’t an army of Flynns, the US Military leaders take great pride in protecting America and its democracy. The military is the American people, and their greatest ally against a dictatorship. AdLib 4 hours ago

TW…sadly I agree with you. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Guys I wouldn’t count on the military reaming true to its oath. Wasn’t there a recent report on how Trumpism penetrated the military? twilson117 4 hours ago

Look at General Milley, he is reflective of most military leaders, he was preparing to step up against Trump if he tried to commit a physical coup. Look at the huge amount of ex-military leaders who came out against Trump when it was feared he might declare martial law and/or the Insurrection Act. That is the reality, military leaders are trained through their lives to protect America and its democracy. Some nutjobs like Flynn get in but they are not plentiful. AdLib 4 hours ago

Ben Franklin was walking out of Independence Hall after the Constitutional Convention in 1787, when someone shouted out, “Doctor, what have we got? A republic or a monarchy?” To which Franklin supposedly responded, with a rejoinder at once witty and ominous: “A republic, if you can keep it.” MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Ad….if the military culture changes – and it could- your scenario will not hold. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Ad do not disagree with you on that, but, I believe there is a level of unrest in the military that is not being fully reported out. Also, there were a number of flag officers who signed a letter supporting Trump. twilson117 4 hours ago

I have members of my family who have served in the military, they have shared how they are trained and how order is maintained in the military. Being part of an armed rebellion against the very people they are trained to protect doesn’t really fit against that. AdLib 4 hours ago

I would never have dreamed how willingly so many in government would turn as they have. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Ad put it this way I wouldn’t want to see it happen, but, I fear there is the possibility. twilson117 4 hours ago

Murph – Anyone can claim anything can change into whatever they fear. Can all the MAGAs change into empathetic people? It’s just as provable as the entire military command becoming invading enemies of the American people. It’s made up. based on nothing and just borne out of fear. The facts will set you free. AdLib 4 hours ago

Murph you’re correct in what Franklin said, the operative part “if you can keep it.” Even then he knew how fragile democracy was. twilson117 4 hours ago

There is evil afoot in the land and MAGA is its face. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

The thing about losing our democracy is it will be done using the very principles it was founded on. The courts, free elections. The tools that we have can and will be used to dismantle it and armed rebellion if need be. twilson117 4 hours ago

Yes, MAGA is evil and many people have been corrupted but here’s my question to both of you, how many Dems have fallen into being MAGA cultists? How many military officers have done the same? You can count on one hand. The point I’m making is that people, including military officers, who are principled, patriotic and intelligent, would not be prone to becoming cultists nor part of a racist/fascist overthrow of American democracy. Yes, some in the military are MAGAs, maybe officers here and there, but Generals don’t become generals by being soft on American Democracy and the need to protect it. AdLib 4 hours ago

I think that MAGA will be normalized and we will see if those who have stood firm so far remain so. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

As you both may recall…..I have regularly critiqued our constitutional structure as one that is inherently unstable. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Ad good points. I believe the question focuses on are there more of the type you speak of than those who want to move toward and authoritarian form of governing twilson117 4 hours ago

TW – As with Nazi Germany, Russia, etc., the mechanics of democracies are always corrupted by the authoritarians and then once they take over, become hollow shells and facades of the real thing. Elections, the press and media, courts, they all continue to exist as facades but they are just functions of an autocracy. For the proposed scenario to happen, all existing judges aside from the small minority who are MAGAS, would have to disappear. The MSM would have to be taken over by Fox News (the MAGA state news org). The entire military leadership would need to resign or be assassinated. Are all these things possible? Yes. Are they practical to accomplish? Not that I can see. And all the state governments opposed to an autocracy would have to be decapitated or agree to bend the knee. Don’t see that all happening. I do see the rise of MAGA fascism and they could force a loser into the WH but that will be the beginning of a massive, national conflict, not the end. AdLib 4 hours ago

TW – I have no proof I can offer but the proposition that a majority of our military leadership would be willing to support a fascist coup over our democratic government seems very far fetched. AdLib 4 hours ago

Murph yes you have. Although I wonder if those who desire to move away from democracy truly understand free enterprise ends once we move toward autocracy? Do you think the truly understand that? twilson117 4 hours ago

Ad…you actually make my case very well. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Murph – How’s that? AdLib 4 hours ago

Ad- your outline of the shape of things to come is convincing….you tinge it with a hue of hope and faith among key groups…..I am not confident in this. MurphTheSurf3 4 hours ago

Ad as with Germany and other countries it didn’t happen overnight. But, when it did take place it rushed in like a furious storm overtaking the people and causing them to lose their minds and humaity. twilson117 4 hours ago

Ad the conditions are here in the US for what you outlined to happen. I hope it doesn’t because if we were to come back we can’t put the yoke back into the egg. twilson117 3 hours ago

Murph – The mistake all those who try to grab overwhelming power miss is that there is always blowback that they never anticipate. As TW points out, an economy under fascism crumbles. Here’s a more positive exercise, consider what blowback would come from an attempt at a fascist takeover in such a massive country with hundreds of millions of people who oppose it. AdLib 3 hours ago

Ad….I hope that your hope is well founded, I do not have confidence in my fellow citizens…they have, by and large, proven unworthy to carry a democracy forward. Ignorance is not bliss. It is a blight. MurphTheSurf3 3 hours ago

The conditions indeed make an overthrow of democracy possible, I agree with both of you. I’m just trying to point out that it doesn’t end there. As they reach out to cement fascism in the country, there will be blowback and millions resisting, along with states, courts and other institutions. AdLib 3 hours ago

Let me toss in another angle. If the Dems manage to hold off the takeover…they are going to have to be very aggressive and likely have to engage in behavior every bit as forceful as the GOP have done….tame the liars on the air waves for a start. But how? MurphTheSurf3 3 hours ago

Murph I understand your concern about your fellow citizens. From what I read and seen far too many people are ill informed around what it takes to keep a democracy going. Too caught up in what is going on with singers, movie stars not enough reading and paying attention to world events. Glued to their lates tic tock video and far to willing to believe the world is against them. twilson117 3 hours ago

TW….an accurate descripton. MurphTheSurf3 3 hours ago

And if fascist MAGAs are in control of the national government and states, courts and the people stand against them, the country they are trying to dominate becomes a much bigger mess than they can even imagine and that turns allies against them. How would the corporations and wealthy feel about supporting a fascist leadership that is killing the economy, robbing them of wealth and power and decimating growth? They are greedy, they will support what best benefits their greed and a New Civil War is not in their interest in the havoc it will cause to markets and profits. AdLib 3 hours ago

Once again I recommend reading How Democracies Die. twilson117 3 hours ago

Your last point is actually one of the elements that hold out some hope to me- the plutocrats rising against the autocrats….of course that did not work out in Germany, or Japan. MurphTheSurf3 3 hours ago

Ad the way the courts are stack at the moment I wonder about that. twilson117 3 hours ago

All of this points to the necessary action on my part……retire into the shadows. MurphTheSurf3 3 hours ago

Murph – If the national government overthrows democracy, it will be up to the state governments and courts to stand against them. There is no pragmatic way for the Feds to prevent a big state like CA or NY from having Sanctuary Cities, legal marijuana, etc. if they so choose. You can’t use the military to force CA to arrest women and doctors for abortion. If we get into a battle with the Feds over funding because they demand CA follow their fascist demands, CA can stop sending tax money to DC. CA loses more than it gains in taxes vs. fed money, it would be a net gain for CA and a net loss for the fascists and red states that depend on CA tax money. AdLib 3 hours ago

Guys one of the points we’re missing I believe is all the dark money pouring into the coffers of Republicans. twilson117 3 hours ago

Ad….your CA scene is quite possible…..and could mark the start of open warfare. MurphTheSurf3 3 hours ago

TW – Don’t forget what happened when Trump tried to overthrow democracy, 60 out of 60 courts including the SCOTUS refused to side with him. AdLib 3 hours ago

And that includes Trump judges. AdLib 3 hours ago

Ad….if the overall atmosphere……that which exists beyond Trump….poisons…those courts will turn. MurphTheSurf3 3 hours ago

Ad yes I know but I was thinking about the SC. twilson117 3 hours ago

Murph – You’re the expert on the situation in MO, I trust your wisdom to do what’s best there but your efforts in IL are very appreciated and valuable. AdLib 3 hours ago

TW…your point about dark money…..are those who give it possible points of resistance to MAGAism do you think or is that just what they were hoping for. MurphTheSurf3 3 hours ago

After this discussion I believe I’m going to purchased Sheldon Whithouse’s book, The Scheme where he talks about how the dark money is influencing everything. twilson117 3 hours ago

Hi – very late but here. choicelady 3 hours ago

CL is in the house!!! twilson117 3 hours ago

CL…hi…. MurphTheSurf3 3 hours ago

Murph – Yes, there are many blowback scenarios, such as blue states refusing to send tax money to DC, that can handcuff a fascist regime. Fascism is hard in any situation, easier in countries with populations who have lived through it and more easily resigned to it. But the U.S.? That would be madness trying to control the whole country. Try controlling Detroit, let the start there! AdLib 3 hours ago

I just snuck in through the doggie door. Sorry – life has intruded. Hi TW, Murph, Ad – good to see you. choicelady 3 hours ago

Hey CL! Great to see you! AdLib 3 hours ago

CL glad you made it. twilson117 3 hours ago

I like some of the suggestions on fighting fascism/. There are more of us than them, so yes, why not? choicelady 3 hours ago

Murph – That’s not the way things work, judges can’t be removed en masse nor will principled judges, which makes up the vast majority, suddenly flip to supporting fascism because a MAGA is in the WH. AdLib 3 hours ago

Murph I believe the dark money is to get what they want from congress, all the way to favorable legislation to judges on the court to rule in favor of things they want to control. twilson117 3 hours ago

CL – Exactly, that’s my position. It’s easier for a minority party to cheat democracy but a far messier and harder thing to try and be dictator to hundreds of millions of people who oppose you. AdLib 3 hours ago

TW…that is my take on dark money as well…….as long as the state serves them anything goes. MurphTheSurf3 3 hours ago

Murph correct me if I’m wrong, Wasn’t the original idea of having a SC to really settle land disputes not so much constitutional law? twilson117 3 hours ago

Ad…what can be done en-masse depends on how much force is available to do so. MurphTheSurf3 3 hours ago

Dark money is just the hiding of the greedy 1% we already know are trying to make the US a plutocracy. We basically know our enemy, the money isn’t as dark in reality. AdLib 3 hours ago

TW……Washington and John Jay designed the court to settle differences among the governmental bodies…and land disputes were among the most commn. MurphTheSurf3 3 hours ago

Ad, CL Murph what hit me when I was watching the lecture Ziblatt one of the authors of How Democracies Die, was our constitution was based on our agrarian society as much of the country was farm land. twilson117 3 hours ago

Ad….the dark money has managed to free itself of the few constraints place on it in campaign finance law. MurphTheSurf3 3 hours ago

TW – that is indeed my understanding of the original SC. But in the 20th C. those disputes were increasingly Constitutional after issues of civil rights were raised. One MIGHT argue it goes back to a customary dispute, SO. Pacific RR V Santa Clara County where a CLERK, not the Supremes, declared corporations had personhood. Once the Constitution is breached by issues of slavery, citizenship, rights, etc., it is either handled well for people or used corruptly for preservation of power and elites. choicelady 3 hours ago

CL, Murph thanks for clearing that up for me. That is what I thought. CL your point of the change is insightful. twilson117 3 hours ago

Murph – Anything can be imagined by anyone but to me, the challenge in predicting what will happen, is factoring in the details of who judges, Generals, governors, etc. are and how responsible they feel they are to their oaths and their constituents. Every soldier, judge, Governor, etc. has a family and friends, they go through life dedicated to accomplishing what they accomplish. They don’t just decide on a whim to be a judge or a general, they commit to their calling. People are complex, they have inner lives that drive them to do what they do. Just assuming that good people will become bad people if they’re scared really underestimates people. For instance, I have no question in my mind that no matter how fascist MO becomes, you will not join their ranks. Because you are a good and principled person. So are judges, generals and governors. AdLib 3 hours ago

I look at what is happening in Wi…the home of progressivism……gerrymandering has resulted in a virtually unassailable GOP lock in their state legislature that has now set its aim on neutering the governor. MurphTheSurf3 3 hours ago

And once again, Congress can regin the SCOTUS back in to prevent it from ruling on social issues or really any area they so deem aside from conflicts between branches of government. AdLib 3 hours ago

Ad…sadly the path of least resistance has become common highway for the masses. Folks like those here are rare, rare, rare. MurphTheSurf3 3 hours ago

Murph WI is indeed concerning. Makes you wonder if it won’t be a test case for other states. twilson117 3 hours ago

Murph – Good point about WI. This is why we need 2 more Senators and keeping control of The House to pass election reforms including ending gerrymandering. AdLib 3 hours ago

Congress can reign in SCOTUS…they can only try to do this if the Dems have a solid majority in both houses…..not likely. MurphTheSurf3 3 hours ago

All, we also have another problem with the push to ban books and control what is taught in the classroom. twilson117 3 hours ago

All – I don’t think we will know for sure where we are until after Tuesday. Back in colonial days, town meetings began, “Know ye the mind of the town” implying consensus. Well, THAT bird flew the coop years ago, but this election we are asking, “Know ye the mind of the people”. Until that is seen, we won’t know where we are. choicelady 3 hours ago

Murph – Yes but how many of those folks were principled and informed and became slaves to MAGA? I think those who are disinterested in politics and not well informed can be turned but would you ever turn to support MAGA? I can’t imagine such a thing. AdLib 3 hours ago

Murph it is time for term limits and a code of ethics for the SCOTUS. twilson117 3 hours ago

TW – what flaming zealot is banning books where? Where THIS time? choicelady 3 hours ago

TW….high on the agenda of the cabal here seeking to control the school boards. MurphTheSurf3 3 hours ago

Ad…sadly the likes of you, me, TW, and Choice are very, very rare. MurphTheSurf3 3 hours ago

CL – Right with you, I don’t buy into polls anymore because polling methods are not multi-dimensional enough to capture the many different segments of the electorate nor responsive to unique situations like the killing of Roe and a fascist threat to our democracy. That just can’t be reflected in polls because methods rely on polling towards the likely voter stats from the previous election. A fatal flaw in polling nowadays. AdLib 3 hours ago

All – I am related via marriage to Republicans. Oh, not MAGAts. My SIL was a 2016 delegate from DC and stood four hours in the rain to vote AGAINST Trump. I also have a friend – and she IS a friend – who voted Trump then, not 2020. And part of the reason NOT in 2020 was me. Yes, one person at a time. One kind discussion at a time. One obviously blatant illegality at a time. We are winning the incremental war. That does not stop the McVeighs. It can slow the drift to the far right. choicelady 3 hours ago

CL, you would ask, my mind just went blank, it was something I was reading in news feed the other day. twilson117 3 hours ago

Murph – In MO, you’re surrounded with so many MAGAs, I really understand how you feel. But the majority of America is in blue states, I know many principled people out here. I know some Repubs who are nice people but far more Dems as you can imagine and it is never a mistake to assume most people I meet despise MAGA and Trump. Come out and visit sometime if you ever can. Maybe in July when PPO is out in SFO with CL and me. TW, same invitation for you but you know in MA that MAGA support is not so widespread. AdLib 3 hours ago

Murph – your sorrow arises from where you are. I grew up in Wheaton, IL, home of Billy Graham’s college. Horrid little town SO Republican that when my Dem mother “walked precincts” for dems, she’ went to a friend’s house, had a drink, marked her paper, and came home. That was well into the 70s. Hyde was our Congressman. Well to my eternal shock, it is DEM NOW. No one ever thought that could happen. But it did. choicelady 3 hours ago

Murph and TW – when PPO comes again, will you think about coming out? It will be July 2023. It would be freaking glorious to have you here. Ad is in LA 6 hours south, and I am in Sacramento 2-3 hours northeast, but we will do ANYTHING to see you both. Plane, Train, or Automobile! choicelady 3 hours ago

CL Billy Graham, oh how I detested that man. twilson117 3 hours ago

CL – I have heard many stories like that, Repubs who voted for Trump in 2016 then couldn’t do so again in 2020. I think there are more out there like that than polls pick up. The boom in registration by women especially but younger people too is not on the pollsters radar. I tune out the polling/horse race BS right now, I think there may indeed be a welcome surprise in the results on Tuesday. AdLib 3 hours ago

Points of light, Ad, CL and TW. Thanks for the encouragement here….where we can find it. Friends, I need to get to bed. I still have electoral duties to do. I will finish off my work on this election as promised but without much enthusisasm. MurphTheSurf3 3 hours ago

TW – I’ll raise you and call you on detesting Billy! choicelady 3 hours ago

CL you win. twilson117 3 hours ago

Ad – On MSNBC there was a commentator (I have it on Sirius radio so didn’t see the name) said as a polling expert he KNEW that all the polling companies are skewing their samples to favor the GOP. Made me gag. choicelady 3 hours ago

Murph – Power through it, we can recognize what you have to deal with in MO but always remember, that is one small state against a majority of good people in many other states. Including those of Voxers! Get some rest pal! AdLib 3 hours ago

TW – you’re very kind. I was NOT taught evolution in biology class because the college raised a hissy fit, and the school board caved. choicelady 3 hours ago

I am off to bed….and yes, I hope and pray that I am totally, completely, absolutely wrong in my doom and gloom predictions. MurphTheSurf3 3 hours ago

Thanks for the good words, Ad…power through… MurphTheSurf3 3 hours ago

CL – I think many pollsters, especially those on the right and leaning right, are skewing their polls to influence turnout, discourage Dems from voting. Do you think mainstream pollsters are too? AdLib 3 hours ago

Murph – love you thought we do, we freaking hope you’re wrong, too! Have a good rest. We WILL get through this. Come see us in SF next July. choicelady 3 hours ago

CL I have a draft of an article I’m writing that I will be posting in Medium over the weekend – if I get it done on voting (I voted early on Thur) which touches on how my religious belief keep me from voting for some time. twilson117 3 hours ago

Night Murph! Know there are better people around you in the country who outnumber the MAGAs in MO. AdLib 3 hours ago

Ad – don’t know who is/is not skewing data. But too may are giving cover to the RW so when they LOSE they can claim fraud even though polling – good polling – would show they WERE losing all along/.\ choicelady 3 hours ago

TW – I would love to see that. I’ll check it out. choicelady 3 hours ago

CL – I think the bogus claim of “fraud” everytime Repubs lose will get tired after this election for the majority of Americans, less will allow for the possibility of that have happened. They can’t cry wolf every election and expect a majority to ever believe them after time and time again. AdLib 3 hours ago

Well last in, I think I need to go to bed. We are having a family reunion here next Thursday-Sunday, and I have a house that fits 7 comfortably with 14 people here for dinner Friday and brunch Sunday. Whether or not you are believers – PRAY for me. This is chaos awaiting me. I just need to get through it. choicelady 3 hours ago

Well, it just the three of us. Ad can you send CL my email address I would like to send her a link to an article I started writing today on voting and how my religious up bringing kept from doing it for a long time. twilson117 3 hours ago

Ad – their “victim” status is earing thin within even the cult. choicelady 3 hours ago

WOW CL! That sounds crazy but fun! Hope it all goes well and you all have a wonderful time! AdLib 3 hours ago

TW – Yep, will send CL your email address! AdLib 3 hours ago

Ad thanks twilson117 3 hours ago

CL I aske Ad to send you my email address so we can touch base on the article I mentioned. twilson117 3 hours ago

CL – Yep, that’s the problem with making the same claim of victimhood for years, it eventually becomes worthless. AdLib 3 hours ago

Ad – please send TW my email? I’m good with that. Off to make menus, finish cleaning the house, etc. All the stuff you do before company AKA the hoards, arrive. I will NOT be on next Friday – I am doing dinner for 14. See you all in two weeks.\ choicelady 3 hours ago

Cl take care. twilson117 3 hours ago

TW – either way. I will connect with you as I have with Ad, PPO, and Murph. Delighted to do that. choicelady 3 hours ago

Will do CL! AdLib 3 hours ago

Good night! choicelady 3 hours ago

Night CL! AdLib 3 hours ago

Well, it’s just you and me for the minute. twilson117 3 hours ago

Hey, maybe we should pop in at CL’s dinner, she’d never notice us amongst the hordes. AdLib 3 hours ago

Good discussion tonight. twilson117 3 hours ago

That sounds like a plan. Must be a pre-thanksgiving dinner twilson117 3 hours ago

Yes. I feel bad for Murph, being stuck in MO and surrounded by MAGA lunatics. It colors his perspective on how the rest of the country is. AdLib 3 hours ago

calling twilson117 3 hours ago