• AdLib : See you then!

  • Beatlex : LOL,See you tomorrow AdLib!

  • AdLib : Not today but you do him honor!

  • Beatlex : Anyone seen SmotPoker? I poked some smot in his honor

  • AdLib : Hat Trick – That sure sounds very complimentary to CL’s work on community banking and employee-owned businesses.

  • Hat Trick : CL – One last thing. I would like to see development of a new type of financial institution rooted within our communities with fiduciary duties reflecting that relationship and public procurement programs used to re-cycle public funds to create a multiplier effect benefiting those within those specific jurisdictions.

  • AdLib : Well, it would seem like a perfect time to wrap Vox Populi for the night. Choicelady, Beatlex and jjgravitas, wishing you a very Happy New Year and positive things in 2014 for all of us!

  • choicelady : Good night Murph – Happy New Year!

  • AdLib : Cheers Murph – Get some rest!

  • choicelady : I think I’m toddling along, too, everyone. The ‘mini crud’ I’ve been battling this week is doing me in. Good night and Happy New Year to all!

  • AdLib : Hat Trick – Very pleased you joined us tonight, hope you enjoyed it and will join us again! Have a very happy New Year!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Back to say so long…been watching this conversation with an appreciative eye. Need to get to bed.

  • AdLib : Hat Trick – That’s very true but it’s not an unanticipated result of the trade policies like NAFTA. The corporations and wealthy are perfectly fine with governments losing lots of revenue because the less money they have to spend, the less power they have and the less they can enforce laws against them. So the destruction of domestic manufacturing is a win-win for them.

  • choicelady : Good night, Hat! Happy New Year and a great 2014!

  • Hat Trick : Thanks for permitting me to join you. Time for me to say good night.

  • choicelady : Hat – we recognize this and are building relationships with embattled cities to renew infrastructural development, too. Hence the Reading, PA initiative. That is our focus in many deindustrialized areas. That is my background for 30 years – and this is the ONLY alternative that seems to be working.

  • Hat Trick : CL – I think we have common ground.

  • choicelady : Beatlex – can you send it WEST so we can MAYBE get some rain out of it? Hope your new crops – winter wheat? survive.

  • Hat Trick : CL – Employee ownership is one component. But, more is required. The leakage of wealth creating capital assets from our communities is similar to a reservoir drying up. Once the water is gone, the floor of the reservoir crack. And, any rain that falls falls thru the cracks rather than recharge the reservoir. Once the wealth creating capital assets are gone, the tax base is gone.

  • choicelady : Hat – we are also building alternative financial systems. The new agreement in October between the National Cooperative Development Bank here with Laboral Kutxa, the credit union at Mondragon, just opened alternative financing in a HUGE way.

  • AdLib : Beatlex – That’s going to be very tough on a lot of people.

  • AdLib : Hat Trick – Which is why the job growth, especially in TX, is for minimum wage service jobs. The transfer of wealth ahs become obscene and yet the way of the wealthy is to decry anyone who wants them to stop picking the pockets of the 99% as committing “class warfare”. When the wealthy are conducting a war against the 99% it is free market capitalism. When the 99% try to stop them, it’s class warfare. Ridiculous.

  • choicelady : Hat – go find my union coop reply to you. We are working in those rustbelt cities with everything from one employee owned business to a major initiative WITH entire cities such as Reading, PA. We intend to rebuild manufacturing, obtain living wages for employee owned services, etc. It’s very exciting!

  • choicelady : jjgravitas – but it is also about blocking things if we have a lousy congress, banks that block lending to new businesses owned by employees, etc. They can’t stop Obama. They can slow him down.

  • Beatlex : We have a Flash Freezing warning for Calgary.We have a cold blast coming that you in the northern states are going to feel

  • Hat Trick : One of the long lasting problems we have here is the continued loss of wealth creating capital assets from our communities (like Cleveland, Buffalo, Elkhart, El Centro, Kannapolis, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Gary, etc). When we these machine tools, molding machines, and assembly lines leave, communities lose their tax base and the slide begins.

  • AdLib : CL – It’s a lot more difficult for the GOP to interfere with a post-presidentia l Obama. Far too many avenues for him to proceed down for them to interfere. Many wealthy people will be on his team as well. Repubs can’t filibuster Obama setting up alliances and programs independently. They can try to sabotage his efforts but they’d be fighting on too many fronts including against the current Dem President.

  • choicelady : Hat – Bernie is rooted in state interventions such as raising the minimum wage. State solutions tend to be necessary but not sufficient to the kind of change you’re talking about since it’s another form of corporatism. It’s going to be largely up to us to do this OUTSIDE government though we hope WITH their support for funding, good laws, etc. CA just started a new caucus, End Poverty in California – the old Upton Sinclair movement – in which I am playing a minor role (for the moment) in pushing employee ownership solutions along with the usual. Bernie is not interested in these sorts of things at this time. So he will work on his end. We will work on ours.

  • jjgravitas : choicelady youre right but post administration it wont be about passing bills but more about public opinion.

  • AdLib : jj – That’s what I’m thinking too. Obama could become even more powerful outside of the WH by becoming a national and international leader for change. He was a community organizer, after being President, the whole world can be your community.

  • Hat Trick : What’s Bernie Sanders up to next?

  • Hat Trick : AdLib – It’s only fictional because it wasn’t actually employed. That doesn’t mean it wouldn’t work.

  • choicelady : jjgravitas – I think the GOP has EVERY reason to get in Obama’s way in his post-presidentia l work because he is a MAJOR threat to their entrenched corporate power!

  • AdLib : CL – Great that the WH is supporting the employee ownership movement! Very good news!

  • Hat Trick : His focus was on healthcare change, not this. But, he could have done it. The re-write will be for a Latina.

  • AdLib : Night Sue and Happy New Year to you!

  • choicelady : Good night SHTR! Happy New Year!

  • AdLib : Night seehowtheyrun! Have a very Happy New Year!

  • choicelady : Hat – B Lab is part of this network of alternatives and has been approved in CA last year. I have some reservations about their competition with non profits, but overall I like them.

  • jjgravitas : AdLib Obamas post-presidency could be very exciting with the Republs having no reason to get in his way.

  • AdLib : Sue – Good that Hedges has learned from Occupy about the need for a broader, global coalition. BTW, I don’t think one person could lead it but Pope Francis could come together with Obama and other like-minded world leaders and together, only together, working with the people they lead, they could build a global coalition.

  • Hat Trick : He had the first option.

  • choicelady : Sue – Good night!

  • Hat Trick : CL – How familiar are you with low-profit limited liability company (L3C) business entities?

  • choicelady : AdLib and Hat – we have the support of the White House on building employee ownership!

  • SueInCa : Well I am gonna have to get out of here, sorry for the short visit but any visit is a good one. Night all and Happy New Year.

  • AdLib : Hat Trick – It is a fictional concept right now but imagine if a real leader…like a post-presidency Obama, took that on!

  • choicelady : AdLib – Anuradha is an amazing woman who is changing the world!

  • AdLib : CL – Very cool, I will check Blessed Unrest and the Oakland Institute out!

  • choicelady : Hat – there is a movement based in urban areas that my organization and I are deeply engaged in doing and that is building cooperative employee ownership of businesses. NOT small consumer coops but manufacturing, services, etc. on small to large scales. It is the result of an agreement between the United Steelworkers and Mondragon Cooperative Corporation that is now selecting groups (mine is one in CA) to build out support to move in and prevent plant shutdowns, do buy outs, start ups, etc. It has its strength now in Ohio, PA, NY but I’m working on it here in CA, and there are efforts in many states – IL, WI, CO, even TX to do the same. It’s a powerful way to create sustainable self sufficiency for workers and communities.

  • Beatlex : A little background music?(«link» utu.be/eRGoGLo5b Q8)

  • SueInCa : Oh KT, missed it, good night

  • Hat Trick : Beatlex – He already did. His first act as Pope was defining.

  • seehowtheyrun : Well, good night everyone. Happy New Year ! I hope 2014 will start to bring some real change.

  • SueInCa : Adlib I think Chris learned from the Occupy movement and they are not dead, by any means but it is going to have to be global. If Pope is the one to lead it, so be it. But someone has to start it. Perhaps like the Arab Spring, there will be on incident that raises people’s consciousness.

  • AdLib : Night Sabreen! Have a great New Year!

  • Hat Trick : We live in interesting times. The times they are a changing.

  • AdLib : Night KT – Saw the Music Thread up and waiting to be scheduled! Thanks so much, pal! Sleep well!

  • AdLib : CL – It is terrible that those trying to stop hatred, war and division instantly put a target on themselves but knowing that is the case, all those who attempt it should operate with plenty of security and safeguards.

  • Hat Trick : AdLib – imagine a fictional narrative that articulated a way forward by discussing the steps taken to align interests, solve persistent public problems, and reweave the social, economic and community lattices. If done properly, it might just change the status quo.

  • choicelady : Sue – one of the great books about people moving toward self sufficiency globally is “Blessed Unrest” by Paul Hawken. There are movements most of us know nothing about that are transformational . Anyone interested in land issues in Africa and Asia should look at the Oakland Institute web site (oaklandinstitut e.org) for the work a dear friend, Anuradha Mittal is doing to preserve these people’s movements.

  • seehowtheyrun : Sabreen: I got a digital antenna and a streaming box. I love them. No more cable. I get about 40 stations: many of them in HD for FREE, and unlimited Netflix streaming ($7.99) on my Roku box, plus a bunch of free channels on there. I got the antenna before disconnecting just to be sure. I’m not going back.

  • SueInCa : Night Sabreen

  • AdLib : Sue – Thanks for the link, have the page open and skimmed it but will read fully later. It does seem inevitable that at the least, as they oppress the people around the world beyond the amount they can tolerate, there will be a push back and it could be intense. It could be global too, like an Arab Spring but for the rest of the world. You can only push people so far, especially after they already know what freedom and democracy are, they won’t tolerate growing oppression forever, there is a breaking point.

  • Sabreen60 : It’s after midnight. My one drink Patron has caused my words to slur :) Therefore Good Night all and please have a safe and Happy New Year.

  • Beatlex : AdLib-Great post about Pope Francis,it would be great if he could start such a revolution,it is overdue

  • SueInCa : It is past time for a People’s Movement, but it will need to be global.

  • jjgravitas : I second the call for a Peoples’ Pushback. Its time we redefined what ‘socialism’ should be all about. Its not what the right would have you believe.

  • KillgoreTrout : I think it’s time I parted also. The Weekend Music Thread is done. Hope to see you all there tomorrow.

  • Sabreen60 : KT, I so want to cut off cable. I just haven’t mustered up the will.

  • choicelady : AdLib and Hat – this is what the RW fear, a Pope, two Presidents and others bringing the disaffected together across national lines. This worries me a lot – and I laugh but seriously mean that it’s GREAT Francis eats in the common dining hall. No food tester needed. I think all of them are at risk – note the murder today of one of the Syrians who was working to end strife in that nation. This is a HOLY WAR of the peacemakers vs. the entrenched powers of hate, money, and greed.

  • SueInCa : I might add, this was actually something I could partway agree with Chris on, he has been a bit screwy for awhile but I think he is changing

  • KillgoreTrout : See ya later VB.

  • AdLib : CL – You’re going in the same direction I was, I do think that the real game changer is for the people and their good leaders, religious and political, to come together globally.

  • Sabreen60 : Nigt VB and Happy New Year.

  • SueInCa : Adlib I read something and I cannot remember where it was but it was referring to the people finally going global, I think it was Chris Hedges on Alternet…..her e is the link «link»

  • seehowtheyrun : It is absolutely time for a global pushback AdLib.

  • Sabreen60 : Found him: Frank Schaeffer

  • choicelady : jjgravitas – I knew a kick ass nun, one of the coolest people EVER, who called Benedict The RAT (for his given name, Ratzinger). She died just after Francis was chosen. I hope, somehow, she knows! She’d be thrilled!

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, you mean the “libral commie new guy,” in the Vatican? ;)

  • AdLib : Happy New Year’s back at ya, VB!

  • AdLib : Hat Trick – I do think Pope Francis is opening up many avenues for people to come together under principles shared by many different political parties and religions worldwide. Wouldn’t it blow the minds of the wealthy to see a solidarity grow between the people of a variety of nations. After all, corporations have become global, isn’t it high time that The Peopl go global and use their combined numbers to push back on the corporations?

  • jjgravitas : take care VB

  • choicelady : VB – Happy New Year. Hope to see you next week. Steer clear of those Big Gulps!

  • KillgoreTrout : I ditched my cable about two years ago. Haven’t missed it one bit.

  • SueInCa : Night Vegas

  • seehowtheyrun : Happy New Year VB !!!

  • choicelady : Sue – thanks. Now I remember.

  • VegasBabe : Well, time for me to head in folks…love you all and iffin I don’t see ya, HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, you are aboslutely right. A&E used to be a pretty good network, but it HAS been trash for quite some time now.

  • jjgravitas : Hat Trick I like Francis much better than the previous guy – Benedict the Bezerker.

  • choicelady : Hat – think of the triumvirate: PBO, Pope Francis, Rouhani all three of whom are speaking PEACE and humanitarian cooperation. Something is definitely changing for the good.

  • SueInCa : Hat Trick the Pope is gonna force the RR to out themselves in a horrible way. I can feel it coming

  • VegasBabe : CL: LMAO…Yes and the sad part for her is, a little MORE weight would do her a world of good…but then, who cares? She’s a monster.

  • KillgoreTrout : Yeah Ad, and that is disgusting. The Almighty Dollar, you know!

  • SueInCa : CL it was Francis

  • Hat Trick : The Pope might be the most provocative character on the planet for his uncanny ability of saying what needs to be said about those who speak and act in ways that seem repugnant to the Pope’s understanding of Christianity and the role church leaders could be playing in their communities. And, when the Pope speaks or writes about things that have been fuel for ugliness, he provides individuals with an appealing alternative to those who spew hatred.

  • AdLib : Sue – Easy enough. Bravo too.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I’d boycott A&E except I never watch it anymore. It’s been trash for several years now. Can’t boycott what you never watch.

  • SueInCa : Lifetime, Discovery and a few others

  • SueInCa : I wish I could Adlib but I never watch them, but I can boycott other stations of theirs

  • seehowtheyrun : AdLib: He’s back on the air. SMH. I already don’t watch that channel.

  • choicelady : Sue – what was Schaeffer’s daddy’s name? I can’t remember his given name.

  • AdLib : And I read today that A&E has basically said, “Screw gays and blacks, Duck Dynasty fans and our ratings are more important.” He’s back on the air. Screw A&E, I boycott

  • SueInCa : Sabreen It is Frank Schaeffer – Crazy for God fame

  • choicelady : VB – remember when she did the “Big Gulp” at one of her presentations? She did not seem to be able to stop. I maintain it was the first nourishment she’d had in DAYS and the sugar rush stunned and captured her.

  • KillgoreTrout : What the duck dummy said Beatlex was definitely more political than Christian. You are absolutely correct. He was playing right into their hands, and still is.

  • seehowtheyrun : CL. Beach Blanket Babylon. I had written about Babylon by the Bay when I meant Baghdad by the Bay. I think it was because I had just worked with beach Blanket babylon so they were on my mind. It’s a show in San Francisco: musical variety, with singing and dancing and the performers wear really big hats.

  • Sabreen60 : jj – No not Jimmy. I was trying to find him. He has a blog and he tweets.

  • choicelady : VB – that’s what happens when you go anorexic. She is looking haggy these days, indeed.

  • AdLib : The Better Business Bureau? Heh! ;-)

  • Beatlex : The R’s came to the Dumb Dynasty dude’s defense to appease their redneck base

  • choicelady : Ohhhh – Beach Blanket Babylon!!! Slow on the uptake, sorry!

  • VegasBabe : Thanks adlib.

  • SueInCa : Oh I get it, that must have been interesting Beach blanket babylon

  • AdLib : VB – Mentioned it below to Killgore but recommend you read Sue’s series on Dominionism that she wrote at The Planet, here’s a link to the first of the series: «link»

  • seehowtheyrun : CL: They ARE heretics.

  • VegasBabe : and that ain’t even the worst of it…Palin is losing her looks! What ever will she do??? LOL

  • choicelady : SHTW – The Better business bureau? Don’t know what BBB is.

  • KillgoreTrout : Yeah VB, she did. Palin doesn’t like to read. It hurts her little pea brain.

  • seehowtheyrun : I’m a musician and I was playing in a symphony holiday concert which featured performers from BBB.

  • choicelady : VB – Palin didn’t need to read the article. She KNOWS what he said because he shares her world view.

  • SueInCa : VB THAT woman is an idiot

  • KillgoreTrout : I certainly agree Ad.

  • SueInCa : the people you worked with?

  • seehowtheyrun : Sue. Could you rephrase that?

  • VegasBabe : KT: Apparently Palin supported him without even reading or knowing first hand what exactly he said….sheesh!

  • choicelady : Sue – ADORED Molly. We’ve got only one left: Jim Hightower. And he’s only in books and online, NOT in a major paper as she was.

  • SueInCa : See how curious, I would be interested to know how that was, you are talking RR?

  • choicelady : KT – they have their following, and Palin, Bachmann, etc. are the cheerleaders for hate, racism, etc. being covered by the banner of “Christianity” which, in fact, they are NOT. They are at best Old Testamentarians for whom Jesus is the “get out of jail free” card they HOPE to play upon death. They’re heretics.

  • Hat Trick : Aligning interests is an art form.

  • SueInCa : Hat I was trying to remember where I heard that name, Molly Ivins was it

  • seehowtheyrun : CL: I just worked with some of them, so they’re on my mind !

  • VegasBabe : Thanks CL. I have been fortunately in my life in that with an intuitive nature, if anything or anyone for that matter does “feel” right, from the door, I generally avoid them like the plague which is true of a great many “Christian” organizations who have approached me at one time or another in my lifetime. But dominionists is something new to me and I am looking forward to picking up the book

  • choicelady : SHTR – LOL!!!!! I can see that!!! VERY funny!

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, just look at all the disgusting support that the duck dummy has received in the last week or so. He said some really unChrist like things, and RR nut jobs loved him for it.

  • SueInCa : Adlib I agre with you on th msm, what a letdown the whole has been for this country. It is just another area of dumbing down of the population

  • Hat Trick : Lou co-wrote several books with Molly Ivins.

  • seehowtheyrun : CL; That’s right. I was confused with Beach Blanket Babylon !

  • choicelady : Hat – I’ve not really read Dubose – I will check him out, thanks.

  • choicelady : Hat – Steffens is, indeed, long dead.

  • choicelady : Sue – yes – but it’s “Baghdad by the Bay”.

  • choicelady : VB – it’s a long book and hard, but the definitive work is “The Family” by Jeff Sharlet. I am horrified to tell you that I know and have tangled with every single person he notes in one chapter, “Through a Glass Darkly”. Scary stuff to me – I’ve lived with it since I was a kid. Growing up in a very central midewest town as the daughter of Unitarian Democrats, it was NOT a good fit.

  • Hat Trick : CL – I like Lou Dubose’s writing in the Washington Spectator.

  • SueInCa : LOL thanks See

  • seehowtheyrun : Sue: San Francisco.

  • AdLib : CL – The complete moral bankruptcy of the far right fundamentalists has been proven beyond a question of a doubt. It is a fact but just like other unpleasant facts related to powerful religious organizations, it is not presented as fact by the MSM…which is owned by corporations that would never want to alienate that segment of their customer base. SO we continue with this charade that racists and the religious haters are just the opposite side of the opinion coin.

  • Hat Trick : Well, my guess is that Lincoln Steffens is worm food.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, I did, but it’s been awhile, for sure. I think it’s worth another look see.

  • SueInCa : Babylon by the Bay?

  • jjgravitas : Sabreen60 Jimmy Swaggart?

  • choicelady : Hat – Yup – Lincoln Steffens, any of the muckrackers, Ida Tarbell – where ARE they?

  • choicelady : It is his son, Frank Schaeffer. His father was appalling. Frank – whom I slightly know – is better though he carries the ego if not the politics!

  • VegasBabe : I’m researching the dominionists as in all honesty, I know nothing about them.

  • seehowtheyrun : Thanks Sue. They were a pretty big presence and there are a bunch of Christian school in the same area now, even though, it’s just outside of Babylon by the bay.

  • SueInCa : Frank Schaeffer Sabreen

  • Hat Trick : Cl – Or Lincoln Steffens. He could write.

  • choicelady : AdLib – back to the basic question: opposition to the ACA also comes from the Dominionist view that they are The Elect – the rich – and that ‘giving’ health care is thwarting the natural order in which the masses should serve, starve, and die unless they convert.

  • Sabreen60 : CL, I drawing a blank. Who is the former minister who was instrumental in the success of the religious right? He has disavowed them. I see him on some political shows.

  • SueInCa : KT you never read it? I guess it was awhile ago that I wrote it

  • KillgoreTrout : Thanks Ad. I’ll bookmark it.

  • SueInCa : CL those two were CCC

  • choicelady : Sue – if we started naming them all, we’d be here all night!

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, if a person can manage to get the title reverend or pastor in front of their name, they can get away with saying almost anything, as far as the media is concerned. At least the news media.

  • choicelady : AdLib – thanks for the link to Sue’s work!

  • SueInCa : The other guy was Loren Cunningham, I think. It is in my series on these Dominionists

  • choicelady : Sue – Yup. Iraq it is now admitted by Bush was part of his religious zeal. Ain’t that grand.

  • Hat Trick : If we look at all these various groups as wave cycles, one can appreciate how it was possible for them to get in sync for certain moments in the past. Fortunately, some of those cycles have shifted. Now, if one wants to see an alternative universe, one has to work those cycles we can influence and help align them so that the results desired are in sync.

  • AdLib : KT – Sue wrote a great series on the Dominionists titled, “Coalition of Church and State”. Here’s a link to the first installment: «link»

  • choicelady : AdLib – where is Edward R. Murrow when you need him? We don’t have such serious journalists and general writers. Every damned book out about inequality today is bloodless, and no one so far has linked the Religious Right’s influence to that inequality when, IMO, it is the MAIN reason you get dumbfuck people like Ryan pretending to be Christian. The Religious Right has embraced Libertarian principles and found one or two vague Bible verses to justify eternal inequality and immiseration. NO ONE is calling them out on that. Maybe Pope Francis will help – thought Dominionists see him as the Anti Christ. Oh well…

  • seehowtheyrun : YES Sue. That was the CCC.

  • KillgoreTrout : Good idea CL.

  • seehowtheyrun : Exactly. AdLib. The MSM condemns anyone for expression any kind of negative sentiment toward any Christian group, no matter how extreme. And of course, anyone who can’t make it financially, is seen as morally weak.

  • SueInCa : CL that is why Palin referred to Iraq as God’s war – Babylon.

  • Hat Trick : CL – He could.

  • KillgoreTrout : Scary people, for sure.

  • SueInCa : See that was probably Campus Crusade fo Christ which is a beginning for the Dominionists I think it was Bill Bright who founded it.

  • choicelady : KT – If you go back in the PPOV archives to Sue’s amazing work, she wrote a ton about all this and did it brilliantly. It’s worth finding and reading.

  • AdLib : There is a facade over the true nature of the nation we live in. You don’t see the MSM portraying the nation as a place where radical Fundamentalists attack, harass and kill innocent people. Where millions are poor and struggling, where children are poorly educated, where adults are trapped in minimum wage jobs, where a wealthy elite campaigns to take away voting rights and safety nets from the most needy…on and on. If this BS of American Exceptionalism and the godliness of unfettered capitalism was truly stripped away, the sight might upset many but the deeply roted problems could be confronted and we could work towards being an exceptional nation again.

  • KillgoreTrout : Thanks Sue. You and CL know much more about these people than I do.

  • choicelady : KT – that’s all Dominionist. Some Evangelicals see it as a distant prophecy without substance. These folks believe they not only will live to see it but are called to MAKE IT HAPPEN. Beware of “god’s little helpers’!

  • seehowtheyrun : CL. when I was an Undergrad back in the late 1970’s, , there was a growing Christian population on my campus, the book ‘666’ which deals with the rapture, was extremely popular.

  • SueInCa : KT they are also referred to as New Apostolic Reformation

  • choicelady : Hat – that’s a very interesting insight. I hope he can pull it off.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, what about armegeddon? The final battle in the holy lands?

  • choicelady : Sabreen – fighting the religious right is very much a cornerstone in my and my organization’s work. I’m lucky to be part of an organization that backs me up on doing this!

  • choicelady : KT – Dominionists ARE the Rapture believers. EXCEPT for groups such as The Family that, IMHO, believe nothing but their own power. The notion of the Rapture is really very recent – under a century – and very much tied to Pentecostal beliefs. Not even Evangelicals believe as these extremists do.

  • Sabreen60 : Good Night Fergie!

  • Hat Trick : CL – PBO has the intellectual curiosity and capacity to entertain amorphous and esoteric topics. He has more runway to do what needs to be done here as the adventures overseas are shifting to a new level. If he desired, he could put forth in his next SOTU a vision to correct persistent public problems is a manner that politically engineered to reflect the strategic effectiveness of the F-22 program (1,000 suppliers in 44 states involving 100,000 workers). [I have had that on my list to Santa for a couple of years now].

  • Fergie1 : A Very Happy, Healthy and Safe New Year to all at the Planet and indeed to the world at large. A kinder, gentler world would be oh so good. Bye :)

  • VegasBabe : Night Fergie

  • Sabreen60 : You do great work CL and you should be proud!! Thank you for the info. I knew about Uganda, but not the other information.

  • AdLib : Seeya Fergie1!

  • jjgravitas : Bye Ferfie

  • SueInCa : Bye Fergie

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Night Fergie…nice having you with us.

  • KillgoreTrout : Have a great weekend Fergie.

  • choicelady : Fergie. Sorry – dyslexia of the fingers.

  • choicelady : Good night Ferfie!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, what do the dominionist think about the Rapture?

  • SueInCa : Scott Lively, CL, that who is being charged.

  • seehowtheyrun : Good night, Fergie1 !

  • choicelady : Murph – I did know that your security was about them as mine is about them. It’s scary. Stay safe?

  • Fergie1 : I’m going to have to say a warm cheerio to one and all.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – They are keeping pretty low since they were outed around Sanford and the Jeff Sharlet. That does NOT mean they’re gone. They have shifted a lot of their action to Africa – they are responsible for the ‘death to gays’ laws in Uganda, Nigeria, and anti gay actions in Russia as well. Center for Human Rights has brought charges against one of them for violations of human rights. It’s being tried in MA and the judge is letting it move forward. I helped get that started!!! I’m very proud of that!

  • Fergie1 : Murph agreed re – the three “GOPs”. I can’t type as fast as I want and so truncate my thughts here! :)

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice-+– bad folks….recall how here on Vox a while back I described my new security system…it is aimed at them and theirs.

  • SueInCa : see – it is difficult to sort the evangelicals out but once you are versed in what dominionists are about, one word spoken will tell you what they are….

  • choicelady : Murph – I can only imagine. Those are the folks who vandalize my car and commit acts of vandalism around my house. Have ’em on tape, and the ringleader stupidly came to my door trying to make me let him in to plant a device where he could listen to my conversations. I did not recognize him then but suspected who he was and found his photo. So I do know that for sure.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I have a hard time telling the difference.

  • Beatlex : I think Christie’s chances are a bridge too far

  • KillgoreTrout : They really are jj. They aren’t as violent, but I think they would be, if it weren’t for our laws.

  • Sabreen60 : CL, We don’t hear anything about the “Family”. Do you know what’s going on with them?

  • Fergie1 : CL, think you may have missed my point also. Or perhaps I didn’t say it well enough.I’m saying that GW was devoid of any knowledge outside the US and that is not an acceptable thing.

  • VegasBabe : There are some so called Christians who need to be put in their place. The sooner, the better.

  • seehowtheyrun : CL: I had no idea of the differences. It does need to be clarified, because my tendency is to shun them all.

  • AdLib : Fergie1 – I don’t think so, primary voters for the Repubs are the Tea Party and RW types and I absolutely don’t believe they have any grounding in reality or know what the word “compromise” means. They’ve had to grin and bear it while the establishment Repubs like McCain and Romney became the noms, I think we’ll see a very Ted-Cruz-type rebel mentality against the mainstream Repubs and Christie would be at the top of that hit list. They’re going to want one of their own this time, they think the reason Repubs have lost is that they’re not RW enough. So I think Christie has a massive problem with trying to win the Repub base’s vote in the South…and without that, he can’t win.

  • SueInCa : VB I agree with you and you never know, if she put out feelers perhaps Clinton would step aside, she keeps saying no…….or Clinton could pick Warren, that would blow the top off the looney right

  • choicelady : Sabreen – that’s important, and he DID have foreign policy experience in the Senate. That’s what any future president will need. SOME exposure to those issues.

  • KillgoreTrout : Yes, and they think the government should be run by the bible and NOT the constitution. They hate the 1st amendment.

  • choicelady : KT – they are NOT evangelicals. They are far worse. The New Apostolic Reformation churches are ALL Pentecostal. Evangelicals are like Jim Wallis and others who are not extremists. The Southern Baptists WERE Evangelical – been hijacked by the Dominionists. So we need to sort this out because we need allies wherever we can find them.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice…I have a local pastor who belongs to the crowd you are naming…despica ble.

  • Sabreen60 : CL, PBO is brilliant. His critics never talk against his intellect. If you read “The Bridge” then you know how brilliant he was in college. So no, he may not have foreign affairs experience per se. But he was extremely well versed – unlike GWB.

  • choicelady : VB – Evangelicals are actually NOT the problem. It’s Pentecostals and roll your own fundamentalists. Many Evangelicals are actually liberal. The Dominionists – those who want a theocracy – are very dangerous and very embedded in American power circles.

  • VegasBabe : All I’m sayin’ is there needs to be a strong movement in this country with progressives and liberals pushing for Warren to run…she doesn’t have the money is no excuse. Neither did Obama,but he won. YES WE CAN

  • KillgoreTrout : I agree CL. VB, yes, many of them are also evangelicals. What is cary about them is that they can’t wait for armageddon.

  • jjgravitas : KillgoreTrout, good point. Fundamentalist Christians and Fundamentalist Muslims are opp0site sides of the same coin.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Fergie….there is no “GOP” – there are three “GOPs”; the tea party crowd, the neo con crowd and the old order…they all hate each other and will not compromise…thu s the stalemate in the House…Boehner did not pass much because he could not do it…the next GOP Primary Season will be much like the last.

  • Fergie1 : VB, sorry, I don’t get your drift. I’m saying that GW hadn’t a clue. At least Obama had traveled and was more worldy both in education and experience.

  • SueInCa : ****Christie, that is and he will

  • seehowtheyrun : Yes KT. And they are trying to institute their own version of Sharia Law right here.

  • VegasBabe : kt: You mean…evangelic als?

  • AdLib : See ya PPO!!!

  • choicelady : KT – of course we have the Fundamentalists. And they are NOT going to lose their influence without a major fight.

  • SueInCa : Hat Trick – “don’t lose that famous temper of yours” is what will happen to

  • AdLib : Fergie1 – So true! Bush didn’t even know who many foreign leaders were when he was elected, he had zero foreign affairs experience. So what happened? He had to turn to the neocon cronies around him including Cheney and became the biggest disaster of a President we’ve ever seen in our lifetimes.

  • VegasBabe : Night PPO

  • KillgoreTrout : VB, we DO have an American Taliban. Fundamental Christians.

  • choicelady : Good night Pink – enjoy the pancakes!

  • Fergie1 : Murph – absolutely. He knew where his bread was buttered to win in NJ and that he did. But the GOP are so desperate, they might and I use the word ‘might’ reservedly, take him over anyone who doesn’t stand a chance in hades.

  • choicelady : VB and Fergie – Cabinet members do not substitute for deep knowledge by the president. Of course it mattered NOT in Georgie’s case, but I think people will want a future president to have SOME experience in foreign matters.

  • Sabreen60 : Good Night PPO!

  • SueInCa : BYe Pink, I have followed him to some extent, Adlib, he is a shell with nothing good inside

  • VegasBabe : jj: I think I was saying that the al quaida aren’t in America.

  • Hat Trick : I hear what you say about Christie. I concur. But, he’s got more staying power than other characters who have toyed with running.

  • KillgoreTrout : Night PPO. Hope to see you on the music thread tomorrow.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Bye Pink…

  • seehowtheyrun : Happy New Year PPO.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I will say the old mustache Petes had a lot more class.

  • choicelady : VB – yes, exactly. They have found bodies at the border without body PARTS that were excised and sold for transplants. Some poor person forks over $5000 to get to ‘freedom’ in the US and THAT is what happens. I got this from a refugee monitor who has SEEN the bodies, so it’s not urban legend.

  • pinkpantheroz : Oh, dear, gotta fly. Good luck to all and have a Great New Year! I’m off to do the Chores. What Chores? I’ll have a gin and tonic, thanks. Byeee!

  • AdLib : Sue – I wholly agree with your point, Christie’s obnoxious everyguy act works in NJ but how would this obnoxious northerner who hugged Obama play in TX and the rest of the South he’d have to win to get the GOP nom? I think he is fatally flawed as a candidate BECAUSE of his character.

  • Hat Trick : AdLib – Warren is great where she is. And, she will be a great leader for the Ds and the country by saying what needs to be said just because it needs to be said. The US domestic agenda still needs an overhaul to address problems that have lacked attention and resources. Warren will be crucial in these efforts.

  • VegasBabe : Fergie1: Right on…foreign policy isn’t everything and that’s one cabinets are for.

  • VegasBabe : CL yes I just wanted someone else to point that out.

  • choicelady : KT – well of course. You cannot be a mobster and be SANE!

  • KillgoreTrout : A good president selects a good cabinet.

  • seehowtheyrun : Every time I see Chris Christie, I expect him to pull out a big wad of bills wrapped up in a thick rubber band: the kind that’s around bunches of broccoli. But he’s probably a bigger time thug than that.

  • jjgravitas : Lo siento

  • choicelady : Sabreen – I get that, for HIS sake! But I would like to think electing people for the ‘content of their character’ SOMEDAY will become the norm.

  • VegasBabe : jjgravitas: well for that matter those Hispanic gangs in mexico cut off heads…al quaida isn’t in America.

  • Fergie1 : AdLib, a bit scary to even mention it, but how much foreign policy did GW have?! Ziltch. Don’t think he had even been outside the US of A!

  • jjgravitas : VegasBabeI misread your msg – so siento.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I would say “mourn.” They really were a bunch of sociopaths.

  • AdLib : Sabreen – I like Patrick but Booker has exposed himself as a pawn of the Banks/Wall Street/Hedge Funds. He is not trustworthy IMO.

  • choicelady : VB – OMG yes – FAR worse. The old mob did not hit families, the Colombian and Jamaican drug gangs are vicious beyond belief. They’re also only part of the story. Russian and other E. European mobs handle much of the sex trafficking and stop at NOTHING the old Italian guys would never have done. Kids for one thing. It’s VERY scary.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Fergie- and Christie is no fav with the right wing either.

  • VegasBabe : CL: there are gangs more dangerous that the mafia? SAY IT AIN’T SO!!! :

  • Sabreen60 : CL, I like Deval Patrick more than I like Cory Booker. However, given the bullshit PBO has had to deal with, I’m in no hurry to another African American in the WH anytime soon.

  • jjgravitas : VegasBabe , how about Al Queida?

  • Hat Trick : Patina -+- copper turns green when oxidized.

  • AdLib : CL – Well…how much foreign policy experience did Obama have when he won the Presidency? I do think it will be very good for Warren to get more experience on that but I don’t see it as an absolute. I mean, how much foreign policy experience did Romney have? And if Christie was the GOP nom, how much does he have?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sue- Christie had the advantage of following two terrible governors but I think his act is beginning to war thin now that the national press is on to it.

  • seehowtheyrun : CL. It will be interesting in the primaries: the Mob vs. the Koch’s

  • choicelady : KT – how weird it is that we mourn the passing of the old mob and live so much in fear of the new ones.

  • SueInCa : CL he was also in bd with Christie

  • KillgoreTrout : Absolutely CL.

  • VegasBabe : CL: there are gangs more dangerous that the mafia? SAY IT AIN’T SO!!! :)

  • KillgoreTrout : SEE, at least NJ. I think they still have a foothold there and NYC. Not as much as they did before Gotti was brought down though.

  • choicelady : Sue – Cory showed his true self in defending hedge funds and pounding on Obama. Never trusted him.

  • seehowtheyrun : I think you may be right about Christie, AdLib. I can’t wait until it really starts hitting the fan.

  • Fergie1 : Agree Murph, that is Christie’s MO. Tries to come across as reasonable but we’ve seen the bully side of him and that hasn’t diminished.

  • choicelady : SHTR – the mob is not what it was (I lived around it in Rhode Island). But they still have a lot of turf and pull even as they’re getting driven out by far more dangerous gangs in drugs, sex trafficking, etc.

  • SueInCa : He is favorable in Jersey, has not really been tested on a national scale, he will fail that test

  • AdLib : Hat Trick – I don’t underestimate Christie but I also think he has an “inflated” favorable rating. He may have a regular guy way about the way he speaks but as I mentioned, he has a ton of nasty baggage behind him and all that Everyguy talk won’t sustain him through a full bore campaign that brings all of it up.

  • SueInCa : MTS I have been saying this about Christie for over two years now. All these progressives who “love” him do not see the real man and are not even aware of the inner workings in his administration, Cory Booker too

  • VegasBabe : AdLib: It’s nice to see you support her as well but as for HRC, in all good conscience, I can’t and won’t vote for anymore war and voting for HRC will be doing just that. She’s already said as much in 2008

  • choicelady : KT – that’s what I thought – that Christie was mobbed up. Lots of indicators…

  • seehowtheyrun : KT: with Christie, I guess we’ll be finding out how much influence the mob still has in this country.

  • choicelady : AdLib – Warren will go nowhere until she gets some kind of foreign policy experience which she cares nothing about. That’s always going to be a drawback.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, Boehner is definitely in damage control mode.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hat Trick…Christie ‘ s supposed record of success is a lie and that is now making headlines; his “assertiveness ” is in fact bold faced bullying and that is being exposed; his ability to make allies across the aisle is really about cutting pork based deals and that to is being reported…..not good…for him…for us…OUTSTANDING

  • Fergie1 : Hi SueInCa, yes a bunch of us are here.

  • KillgoreTrout : I still think Christies has some ties with organized crime in NJ.

  • seehowtheyrun : Hat trick: Good points about Christie. And he also kind of an everyman appeal.

  • choicelady : Hat Trick – I first read it as “He has a political piñata…” Did NOT make sense. ‘Cause you didn’t write that…

  • AdLib : As others here have mentioned, I too think that the dream candidate for POTUS for those wanting to reverse the most damaging policies of this nation is Elizabeth Warren. She is the real deal, a woman of principle and grounded with the lives of real Americans. A straight up Progressive. But she’s not going to run in 2016 against Hillary and I don’t think she should. It’s too soon and she’d get buried in Clinton Cash. We do need some strong Progressive voices running against Hillary to force her over to the Progressive side more…or offer a real alternative.

  • SueInCa : Choice I think Boehner is seeing the writing on the wall and is going to blow it even worse than he already did on the baggers…..

  • Hat Trick : AdLib – Do not underestimate Chris Christie. He’s a good communicator. He stumps well. And, he has a political patina that is not going to hurt him. He’s going to keep coming back. And, he could give everyone a run for their money.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL…which baggers….if they are Red Staters than then it is a tougher job with greater risks and likely damage to their subscriber base.

  • SueInCa : Hi Seehowtheyrun. seeing some familiar names from PuffHo

  • Fergie1 : jjgravitas, yes they should. A blizzard of ads could also work!

  • seehowtheyrun : Hi Sue!

  • SueInCa : Hey KT and MTS

  • MurphTheSurf3 : HELLO THERE SUE

  • choicelady : Murph – if the media can ‘out’ Christie, then why can’t they out the Baggers? Grrrr.

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Sue, long time no see!

  • seehowtheyrun : I hope we’re just seeing the tip of the Christie iceberg, Murph.

  • VegasBabe : Sabreen: we can…it’s Elizabeth Warren!! :)

  • MurphTheSurf3 : ALL…Christie’ s supposed record of success is a lie and that is now making headlines; his “assertiveness ” is in fact bold faced bullying and that is being exposed; his ability to make allies across the aisle is really about cutting pork based deals and that to is being reported…..not good…for him…for us…OUTSTANDING

  • choicelady : AdLib – I’m telling you: Christie’s mobbed up. There’s a real stench of corruption from the past I’ve read about. But he’s managed to bury it so far.

  • seehowtheyrun : Sabreen: I’m sad to say, and I hope I’m wrong but I don’t think we can do better than the Clinton’s or Bushes as long as we have privately funded elections.

  • SueInCa : I am with you Sabreen, not with Hillary just yet and hi all

  • jjgravitas : Fergie they should make a movie dramatizing how the Repubs used the TP.

  • AdLib : Hey Sue!

  • VegasBabe : Hey Sue

  • Sabreen60 : Hello Sue! Good to see you!

  • AdLib : SHTR – I think there’s a lot more dirt in Christie’s past than Bridgegate but happy to see that hanging heavy around his neck.

  • choicelady : SUE!!!! GREAT to see you!

  • Fergie1 : AdLib, Ha ha! That’s a good one re Christie.

  • seehowtheyrun : Fergie1: I think it’s the Dems job to make sure that people don’t forget. I hope they’re up to the task : for once.

  • Sabreen60 : I inclination is to say I’d vote for Hillary, but damn! Clintons and Bushes. Surely we can do better. But truthfully, I’m more concerned about 2014. If we could give PBO a Dem House and Senate, he could get a lot accomplished.

  • SueInCa : Hi all just stopped in to see how it is going

  • seehowtheyrun : Murph: I hope Christie’s bridge gate keeps unfolding.

  • AdLib : When it comes to Christie’s run for President, with all the baggage he’s got, just remember the old cliche, “The bigger they are, the harder they fall.” And I would not want to be under him when he falls.

  • choicelady : Murph – I live in eternal hope you’re correct.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice…Re. Christie…he is quickly becoming damaged goods in the “GOP choose a moderate crowd” and he has always been unacceptable to the strong right.

  • VegasBabe : HatTrick: Not only is she smart, one gets the distinct impression that personal gain such as deep pockets doesn’t interest her which implies she can’t be bought and she’s not for sale. I like that about her.

  • Fergie1 : That’s exactly right SHTR. They have said as much. I hope it’s too late and that the public never is allowed to forget how they GOP used the TPers to thwart Obama’s agenda and the working of the Government.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – wasn’t it on TPV that the issue of Deval Patrick came up and some idiot from the media said America can’t elect TWO Black presidents? Made my hair on fire reading that. But I know almost NOTHING about him. I’m really not focused on 2016 so much as Congress 2014.

  • AdLib : Night glenn!

  • KillgoreTrout : Sleep well glen.

  • VegasBabe : Night Gleen…Happy New Year!

  • choicelady : Hat Trick – I agree there is no ‘vision’, but first let’s get CONGRESSIONAL Dems to have one other than “keep my job”!

  • AdLib : Fergie1 – Moderate Repubs? All but one of the House Repubs voted against the budget deal. There ain’t such an ani-mule!

  • KillgoreTrout : I like Debbie Wasserman Schultz too, but she says she is more valuable were she is right now.

  • VegasBabe : KT A female POTUS is alright but more importantly, we need someone not afraid to go up against lobbyists and especially AIPAC..off hand, I can’t name nary a one.

  • Sabreen60 : glenn, Take care and Happy New Year!

  • Hat Trick : KT – Elizabeth Warren is wicked smart. She gets it. She knows why the changes in the bankruptcy laws were wrong in 2005. She knew why we needed to create the architecture for the CFPB. And, her plain spoken, matter of fact questioning resonates. What I have yet to hear is her articulate a vision of a path forward that is complete, comprehensive and actionable. But, then, no one else has offered one either.

  • Fergie1 : ‘Night glenn, sorry I wasn’t here earlier and I’m v. slow with the keyboard! Cheers to ‘ya.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Good night Glenn

  • choicelady : KT – Of course, but think what that means that Christie was THAT popular NATIONALLY. My one enduring hope is he cannot pass the primaries.

  • KillgoreTrout : PPO, I would love to see a female DEM president. The right’s collective heads would explode!

  • AdLib : Hat Trick – Agree with your view on the Congressional races and the gerrymandered districts in TX and elsewhere in the South. What we’re going through are the last desperate gasps of a doomed white majority. It’s just trying to avoid the hell they’ll cause as they eventually go down and try to take the country with them.

  • jjgravitas : The message of 2016 should be what the Dems have accomplished in this administration: one war over and we’re about to end another, Bin Laden eliminated, Al Queida crippled, the economy rescued, the auto industry rescued, we made most of our money back and may even profit from the loans, ACA passed and implemented resulting in many improvements to medical services. And all of this happened despite the GOP saying objecting to everything. That means all of the credit for this goes to the Democrats.

  • VegasBabe : CL: TOTALLY AND COMPLTELY AGREE

  • VegasBabe : CL: totally and completely agree

  • choicelady : Sabreen – well said, my friend. Well said.

  • seehowtheyrun : Fergie: That explains their sudden swerve away from the tea party extremists.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, it’s still way too early for accurate polls.

  • VegasBabe : CL: glad to hear that my friend. I think the exact same thing. I’d rather go with Biden

  • Sabreen60 : I’m hoping that women will realize how much is at stake in 2014. Our rights are under assault just as are voting rights. I never in my wildest dreams thought that young women in 2013 would have to fight for the right to use contraception. However, this is not just a fight that women need to fight. Men need to step to the plate. They have to help support the babies. Evidently Repub men want to keep their women barefoot & pregnant.

  • choicelady : glenn – sweet dreams. GREAT news about your good Christmas. Happy New Year!

  • Fergie1 : Last night on the news it was reported that the GOP are looking for more “moderate” candidates to run in the Mid Terms. Get ready for a bumpy ride and get out the vote.

  • seehowtheyrun : Goodnight glenn. Sweet dreams !

  • choicelady : VB – I never thought Hillary would be a good president. She has far too many ties to Wall Street and the Dominionists.

  • glenn : Alright, folks, getting late here, so time for bed. Enjoyed chatting with everyone tonight–such insight, intelligence, and just plain fun on this site! Hope to “see” you all around over the weekend. Take care everyone, and I hope your new year has a great beginning. “Talk” to you all next week, for sure.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice and Glenn…for all of Warren’s panache she is a newcomer to the political scene and Hillary’s connections mean a lot, a whole lot….AND Warren really does want to be in the Senate and for the long haul.

  • choicelady : SHTR – Totally agree about Warren’s value in the Senate. She is the mouthpiece for PBO’s economic policies and fearless about all that. She’s powerful there.

  • VegasBabe : Well, I am no longer certain HRC would make a good POTUS and I don’t know if I can support her until I hear loud and clear that she wouldn’t “obliterate” Iran if they threatened Israel and more importantly, that continued support of Israel needs considerable discernment particularly with their continuing to create settlements on territorites disputed.

  • seehowtheyrun : CL: I think Warren is more valuable in the Senate.

  • KillgoreTrout : Good point VB. I would vote against her in the primaries. But if she should win the nomination…..?

  • choicelady : glenn – Warren wants to BE a Senator, not president. Good on her!

  • pinkpantheroz : KT, you might be right. Just think about 5 years ago. No one ever thought……… . Might just happen, and wouldn’t that be a kick in the nuts for the GOPTP. but I still feel she won’t, more’s the pity. If she does…… fasten seat belts time!

  • choicelady : KT – of course I will vote for Hillary if she is selected, but to see Christie out poll her today?????? YIKES.

  • glenn : KT–I’m with you; I’ll vote for HRC if she is the nominee, but I truly don’t think she is the best choice for the Dems. I do think Elizabeth Warren should stay in the Senate for a while longer; she makes a great spokesperson for Dems!

  • choicelady : Beatlex – so do we all! They’re scary stupid and bullheaded. Cult. I’m telling you it’s a CULT.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I would have no choice if Hillary gets nominated. I’m sure not going to vote GOPTP.

  • Beatlex : Choicelady,I guess,but I still find the Gop”s intransigence maddening!

  • choicelady : VB – I meant Warren not Hillary! Sorry for the confusion!

  • Hat Trick : Sabreen60 – I hear you.

  • choicelady : Fergie – AMEN! The People’s View had a chart showing that in 2010 the Dems did NOT vote. Wasn’t an uptick in the Tea Party turnout but a downturn in pouty and whiny Dems not voting. Ed Schultz – how’s that workin’ for ya? Idiot.

  • VegasBabe : KT: Well, you realize she’s tight with Bibi who remains hell bent in securing more money and US troops in the Me…and she’s in his pocket.

  • KillgoreTrout : I don’t know PPO! She may secretly really want to be the first female president. Big time history.

  • Hat Trick : AdLib – Rove focused like a laser on Congressional races in play. Why? Because, who ever turns the tables, wins control. That worked for the Rs in the past. In 2012, Ohio was in play in the National election. What happens next year in Texas will have repercussion throughout the US. If the Ds sweep, the Rs can’t win. It boils down to numbers. The demographic numbers for Texas exist. If the unregistered … jump through the hoola-hoops they must now jump through in Texas to register AND then, vote on Election Day, even the gerrymandered districts can’t save the Rs.

  • seehowtheyrun : CL: Plus, it’s made it easier for people to have an effect on state politics outside of their home states.

  • VegasBabe : pinkpanther….y ou’ve got to be dreamin’! SHE’LL RUN, SHE’LL CALL IN EVERY FAVOR EVER OWED AND WILL WIN…

  • choicelady : KT – I don’t think she’d be a good president, and SHE said she would not run, so we need to look elsewhere. Tonight one poll had Christie up two points over Hillary – THAT is pretty awful.

  • AdLib : Sabreen, you are so right about the people being in a desperate battle to retain their democracy. I am really hoping that Holder is very aggressive and successful at beating back these Voter ID and suppression laws. That would make a big difference if we can get TX, NC and other states back into the pre-approval regime for any changes to voting laws.

  • Fergie1 : Sabreen, I agree with you about the apathy on the part of so many Dems. So many expect miracles and stay home because not everything was possible to be accomplished and they don’t like some of the current policies. If only they would THINK and ask themselves do they want the alternative and the reason so many things did not happen was because they stayed home in 2010. It makes my blood boil!

  • KillgoreTrout : VB, I’ll never vote GOPTP, so if she is the nominee, then I’ll vote for her. I really like Elizabeth Warren, but I think it may be too soon for her to run.

  • choicelady : SHTR – I agree. And it’s fun for me who mobilizes people to see people, well, MOBILIZED.

  • pinkpantheroz : VB and KT, I don’t think she will. I feel that she doesn’t need the aggravation of the stuff that will no doubt be thrown at her. She MIGHT go for VP on Joe Biden’s ticket. that would surely get Joe across the line!

  • VegasBabe : Hey murph! :)

  • seehowtheyrun : Good point CL. The internet has made it so much easier for people to connect and contact their Reps: no wonder the powers that be are trying to shut it down!

  • choicelady : glenn – the GOP live on lies. That’s all I can say. If they have power they abuse it. And then pretend they aren’t. Used to be a decent party. Now it’s a cult.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Vegasbabe..hello !

  • VegasBabe : Hi Sabreen! Just got here myself so no worries.

  • choicelady : Beatlex – I don’t agree. We’ve made HUGE strides in just 5 years, and we’d make more if we had a better Congress. People are beginning to speak out more. Sabreen – I’m seeing a lot of FORMERLY passive people start to make calls to their Reps. So maybe it’s a turning point. Polls are not the only indicators.

  • seehowtheyrun : Hi Sabreen. Happy Holidays to you as well.

  • VegasBabe : KT: she’ll run, and she’ll win, huge! But who here is behind her?

  • seehowtheyrun : Coming up , VB !

  • Sabreen60 : I know I missed saying “hi” to everyone so let me say it now. Hiya folks. Hope you enjoyed the holidays.

  • glenn : CL–I agree completely with you about Reagan. I don’t understand how repubs can talk about the “big, bad government”, and then do everything they can to become a part of it. And…they never make it smaller when they’re in power. I see no problem with making my government “give me things”–I thought that’s why I’ve been paying taxes for the past 48 years!

  • VegasBabe : seehowtherun, I’ll take a cold glass if you don’t mind :)

  • KillgoreTrout : VB, do you think she will run?

  • seehowtheyrun : I will if she’s the most viable Dem.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – I so agree! No passivity, MUST get out the people who are impacted by these awful things!

  • AdLib : Hey VegasBabe!

  • VegasBabe : I’m wondrin’ whose voting for HRC in 2016?

  • Beatlex : Choicelady,it is a sad state of affairs.What can be done? Progress is almost impossible

  • Sabreen60 : AdLib, I keep thinking how in 2010, PBO kept saying don’t give the keys to car back to Repubs. The public didn’t listen. Too many Dems stayed home. Now we have voter suppression and I’m still suspect of the Diebold machines. I confess. I am worried. We are in a fight of our lives. In fact, I haven’t seen a battle like this one since the 60’s.

  • Fergie1 : Hey Vegas Babe!

  • choicelady : Hi VB – how are you?

  • seehowtheyrun : Hi VB ! I’m here in good company sipping fine wine. How are you?

  • choicelady : Murph – damn. Sorry to hear that. “No good deed goes unpunished”.

  • KillgoreTrout : What’s up VB?

  • VegasBabe : Hey Everybody. How is everyone tonite?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- your vandalism experience reflects my own.

  • choicelady : see – OK – who’s for voting in AdLib as Party chair>

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn…target wants to hear from you re. your problem. Contact them.

  • seehowtheyrun : Adlib for dem party chair. I’ll second that !

  • choicelady : AdLib – I think that’s EXACTLY what the Dems should, and I hope will, do. Can you run for party chair???

  • choicelady : Beatlex – I think our politics have been poisoned since 1979. When Reagan bought the Religious Right it all began, and it’s been a disaster ever since. But there has rarely been the corruption we saw in voting in 2000 on – from the GOP, not hapless POC. The REAL voting fraud is very high level. And the media have been bought, the corporate influence is overwhelming, and it’s like pushing molasses uphill to move anything progressive.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen…at Target I used a credit card I rarely use and notified the company I was doing so. There is much more of this to come in future I fear.

  • AdLib : GOTV will be critical in 2014 and Dems pushing back against the Repubs and MSM crying that the sky is falling because of the ACA will be important. I’ve said this before though, The Dems need to nationalize this election and on one hand explain what more of the same means if Repubs keep the House…and more importantly, give voters an agenda of what they will pass if given the House and keeping the Senate. Why not run on a people’s agenda of raising the minimum wage, killing tax breaks and handouts to the wealthy and spending on education and infrastructure.. .which means jobs and reversing a crumbling America? Think big, Dems! Offer a whole package of bills they’ll pass.

  • glenn : CL–luckily my bank is very close to my house, and the people are wonderful, so it wasn’t that big of a deal; just a minor inconvenience, but compared to having my bank account depleted, well worth the time to do it. When I was there, I got some extra cash, and since I haven’t been shopping for a while now, it’s okay.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Pink I was aware that Australia had a hybrid system like the USA and am encouraged by your direct interaction with it. Thank you.

  • Hat Trick : CL – That means you have a great oak being whacked to death by thousands of cheap shots. Each whack will be damaging. Each whack not contested will draw blood. Each whack will be discussed at length by media outlets who need content and are unwilling to expend resources to do real journalism.

  • Sabreen60 : Good for you Murph. I have NEVER been in a Walmart. There isn’t one that close to me, but I make trips to go to other stores. Costco is great. I really like they their employees are treated. I also have a list of brand name products that I refuse to buy, especially those by the Kochs. Of course, I no longer shop at Whole Foods. I do shop at Target from time to time.

  • Beatlex : I have been following American politics for most of my adult life,for comedy,really.I stopped laughing after GWB was elected.And your politics has been poisoned ever sinc

  • choicelady : pink – that’s a powerful story. Why not add it to the ACA site?

  • seehowtheyrun : Nice to ‘meet’ you here too, Fergie !

  • choicelady : glenn – Oh no! I’m so sorry that happened to you! I got lucky – did NOT go during that time. Good luck and hope it’s faster than that!

  • Fergie1 : Thanks seehowthey run. Wasn’t sure if it was a bit old. Nice to “meet” you here.

  • pinkpantheroz : Murph, nothing ‘s perfect but it’s sure better than no coverage because you’re unemployed or homeless. Coverage is both public and Private. you will get the identical treatment under both systems, except you may have to join a waiting list if you’re public, and you also don’t have the full choice of practitioner. My wife suffered a catastrophic retina tear in her only useful eye and I had to drive her to the hospital. She underwent emergency surgery within hours and it was carried out by a surgeon world famous for her work in retinal surgery. Complete success and saved her from going blind. So I have no problems with Government subsidized medical care. I truly hope the ACA works. It will certainly be better than no coverage at all and people already struggling with the GOP/TP’s version of the American dream, won’t go bankrupt

  • glenn : CL and Murph–unfortuna tely, I used my debit card at Target–went to the bank and I am now in the process of getting a new one. Interesting, too, that the bank officer who processed my new card told me that it will take up to six weeks to get my new one because of all the demand.

  • choicelady : Murph – despite my work, I never put on bumper stickers. My car got vandalized again for my opening my mouth. I don’t need road rage in addition.

  • seehowtheyrun : That is a good one Fergie.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Gravitas- I like your Bumper Sticker….It worked for me and it will work for you.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – children of the silver spoon REALLY should never open their yaps about “working”. EVER.

  • Fergie1 : You’ve probably all already seen an old bumper sticker which says ” Obamacare Is Better Than I Don’t Care”. Although I’m a bit of a stickler for using the correct name of the ACA, thought this was pretty good.

  • choicelady : Murph – that’s very interesting indeed. Hope you used cash or a credit card at Target though. I like Target, and it’s interesting to get your feedback from there.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : GRAVITAS…congr ats and great news. Thanks for sharing this.

  • jjgravitas : Hey, KT

  • Sabreen60 : CL, You must also have worked in the past to qualify for UI. So contrary to Rand, Ryan and their cohorts these folks have worked and are not laying around enjoying the high life on the max of $300 per/wk.

  • KillgoreTrout : What’s up jj?

  • choicelady : AdLib – it’s not even necessarily a strategy but reality. The House will NOT go for extended UI. THAT needs to be our mantra – cutting off families from life sustaining help they paid into.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen…I spent part of my morning buying collectibles for Christmas at several stores including Goodwill, Target and Costco. I shop where ownership and management treats its people fairly. The manager at the Target told me that even with their credit card mess – they held their own with Wal Mart in no small part because a very solid core of Wal Mart shoppers are VERY AWARE of UI cutoff….

  • AdLib : Hey jjgravitas!

  • glenn : Hello, jjgravitas

  • choicelady : Hat – the one budget thing the GOP has done is cut funding for advertising about ACA. Neat trick indeed.

  • AdLib : Sabreen – I think there are some cynical politics at play with the Dems. They know that there will be an uproar in many of the Repub districts from their voters who lose UI payments and they seem to be calculating that it’s better to preserve their energy a bit and let it all play out. Though, Obama and Dems were out big today in announcing their push for re-funding UI.

  • jjgravitas : Hi yerself, Sabreen60

  • Hat Trick : AdLib – The reason consumer products run ads is because people forget, they get distracted and they become vulnerable to the drumming by another marketer’s messages.

  • seehowtheyrun : Hattrick. That’s a good point. Clearly, it’s worked for republicans. Dems need to counter likewise.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – then this will be THE issue. And Rand can stuff it. You MUST be looking for work and prove it to GET UI. He obviously, child of privilege, never has had to claim UI so what would HE know? Anyone who says it’s better to take a low wage job than UI is a jerk – that is not a responsible thing to do to your family.

  • Sabreen60 : Hi hhgravitas!

  • Hat Trick : AdLib – The is an old advertising story about someone who sees an ad once and ignores it. But, after twenty times, he believes it to be true when asked. People ARE affected be marketing messages.

  • Sabreen60 : CL, And I believe another 1.9 million will lose UI in the Spring.

  • choicelady : Sorry – jjgravitas…

  • choicelady : Hi hhgravitas – thanks for the MD update. Glad it worked for you!

  • choicelady : Sabreen – is it that many? Maybe the figure I head we for just CA – 200,000. That – 1.3 million – will have a HUGE impact.

  • Sabreen60 : Hiya pinkpantehroz

  • KillgoreTrout : See, we must keep reminding them about what the right has done and still proposes to do. We can’t let go.

  • seehowtheyrun : jjgravitas: nice bumper sticker.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : PinkPanther…th anks….tell me how do you find that national system in Australia?

  • jjgravitas : How about this for a message / bumbersticker / meme: “Obamacare – works for me!” I signed up online for healthcare last week through Md stats’s healthcare exchange website and it was a snap.

  • seehowtheyrun : Sabreen: I did see a mention of UE benefits expiring on the local evening news tonight.

  • choicelady : pinkpantehroz – on the whole I’d rather be HERE. I’m in CA where it’s 60 for the high, about 45 right now. MUCH nicer overall than 100. I am assuming, too it’s in Farenheit not Celsius? Because if it’s the latter you need to be evacuated NOW.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Fergie….many have been run off here…and it has created a huge shortage in skilled helpers.

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, I absolutely agree. And we can’t win by being quiet. I bet the public is not aware that 1.3 million people will lose their UI tomorrow. They aren’t aware because Dems are not talking about it. I think most of here are probably political junkies and we read a lot. Unfortunately, a lot of the public gets info from TV. The critics are constantly talking about the Dems messaging problem. Well, IMO it’s not a message problem. The problem is getting the message to the people.

  • Beatlex : Found this in the archive!https:// youtu.be/WWOxzbL apSY

  • AdLib : Hey pinkpantheroz! Nice to see ya!

  • Fergie1 : Hellooo Murph!

  • choicelady : KT – we all have to help make that very clear. The numbers of people cut off on the 28th are small, but we have to make clear that losing their spending power is BIG.

  • pinkpantheroz : Hate to tell you all shivering in the northern Hemisphere, but it’s 100Degrees here today. Phew. Oops, sorry Adlib, off-topic.

  • seehowtheyrun : Very true KT. But people will still blame the party in power.

  • AdLib : Hat Trick – The real question is, won’t people have had enough personal experience with the benefits of the ACA to be “immunized” against the tons of negative ads by Repubs? I mean, if you eat a delicious food then someone yells at you not to eat it because it tastes bad, no matter how loud they yell it, would you believe that over your own experience? I think that’s a big potential factor in defusing this as a Repub strong point.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hat Trick….Hearst gae us language for what you describe…”If it Bleeds, it Leads.” Marketing studies say that negative experiences are passed on 25 times more than positive ones. So the bad stories will always get more play and a wider audience. It is ALL about clicks, ratings, and responses.

  • Beatlex : Found this one in the archives!https:/ /youtu.be/WWOxzb LapSY

  • KillgoreTrout : The economy is always a very big issue, and when the GOPTP cuts SNAP and unemployment, they are making the economy worse. People will see that. People will feel that, too.

  • seehowtheyrun : Happy Hols Pinkpantheroz.

  • glenn : Hi PPO

  • choicelady : Hi pinkpatheroz – nice to see you here!

  • Fergie1 : Hey KT, thanks for the shout out.

  • choicelady : Hat – that’s a very solid point. But we’ve lived through this on many, many issues, and I think if the Dems get serious and not passive, we can deliver the ‘thousand cuts’ in many different ways.

  • Beatlex : AdLIb,or a poke in the eye!

  • seehowtheyrun : AdLib; I still like them, but I was pretty obsessed with them as a little girl.

  • pinkpantheroz : Checking in and hope everyone had a safe Celebration. Living in Aus, I’ve no dog in the ACA hunt, but recognize Murph’s genius in calling out that goon allegedly from the Commission. well done, Murph

  • Fergie1 : Opps, I hit enter before I should have. Just arrived and have to say HUGE Kudos to Murph – brilliant. Beat them at their own game. They should know better that we don’t back down with false inuendo and bully tactics. But you, my friend, were masterful! Thank you.

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Fergie!

  • AdLib : seehowtheyrun – Same here though I was a Stooges fan for a whole longer. There’s something about responding to idiocy with a bonk on the head that still appeals to me.

  • Beatlex : Where is SmotPoker? Haven’t seen him here for a while.In his honor I Poked some Smot!

  • KillgoreTrout : That’s funny Murph!

  • choicelady : Sabreen – I watched Robert Reich (whom I dislike for a whole lot of reasons) cave to a RW guy tonight on upward mobility, decline of the middle class – stupid passivity.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL…yeah doesn’t it.

  • Hat Trick : It depends. Paid ad messages can destroy things. A campaign of a “thousand cuts” – repeating a collection of messages – can bleed anything to death. And, there are some with pots of gold motivated to use those resources to bleed anything they don’t like to death … because they can. And, there are surrogates who will accept pieces of gold to preserve their place in office despite the fact that the positions they might take are at odds with their constituents. Having said that, ACA will provide a plethora of benefits to a wide variety of individuals and stakeholders. Yet, will that be “newsworthy”? Will producers and publishers give the obvious beneficiaries news coverage? Less likely. It’s not a conflict. And, conflicts attract viewership and readership. Unless, there are champions who show … in much the same way that “Wisk around the collar stops ‘ring around the collar”’… that ACA kept this family out of bankruptcy, kept this healthcare provider in the black (instead of the red due to care for the indigent coming thru their ER doors). Texas is the most important state in this regard. The demographic shift in this state in the next 25 years is profound. The real beneficiaries of ACA are currently a minority. And, this minority group has thus far been a “quiet community” without a voice in state or national government entities. If this community ever registers and shows up on Election Day, the implications will be profound. If a Portland Bus Project was to facilitate such effort in the next 18 months, then the ACA will be as popular as Social Security and the Grand Old Flag.

  • seehowtheyrun : Hello Fergie !

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hello Fergie!

  • choicelady : Murph – oh, well. That explains EVERYTHING.

  • Sabreen60 : glenn, I don’t think Dems should get in the mud either. But I do think that they shouldn’t be bullied by Repubs while on air.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT- Come to think of it the GM of the TV station looks like Elmer Fudd.

  • AdLib : Greetings, Fergie1! Glad you survived Christmas. No wonder we’re fighting a war against it.

  • seehowtheyrun : Cheers CL !

  • choicelady : Hi Fergie1 – hope you had a great holiday, too.

  • glenn : Hey Fergie

  • choicelady : Murph – that is scary and why reporters are so wary. Ugh.

  • choicelady : shtr – GO for it! Can’t let a good Syrah go to waste!

  • seehowtheyrun : AdLib: The Three Stooges was my FAVORITE TV show when I was 3-4 years old. My parents thought there was something wrong with me. I’ve probably had that song in my subconscious ALL these years!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL…they said she was on “assignment” and when she came back she was back on the human interest beat.

  • Fergie1 : Hi to one and all! Hope that all of you had a pleasant Christmas. We “survived”! :)

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I still call TPers “maroons.” They always come back with, you can’t spell. Isn’t that rich?

  • choicelady : Beatlex – as glenn and Sabreen know, some on TPV think that it will be the GOP failure to go for unemployment, SNAP, and other things that will be carried as talking points into the election. I read today that people are calling daily about unemployment – and I’m encouraging our members to do so on both issues.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : SHTRun…Huzzah!

  • seehowtheyrun : CL. I opened a Spanish Syrah last night. I need to finish that up!

  • KillgoreTrout : Maybe it was Daffy Duck! Now that I think about it.

  • choicelady : seehowtheyrun – they serve only martinis here. You have to BYOB if you want wine.

  • Beatlex : The Dems are promising to bring up the unemployment cuts,right away.They will have to fight hard for them to be restored

  • glenn : Sabreen–I think Dems have to stick to facts–and speak softly, but carry a big stick–the big stick being the facts are on the side of the Dems. I want to see the Dems “elevate” the conversation–no t wallow in the mud like the repubs do. Instead of “fighting fire with fire”, I think Dems need to throw lots of water on the repubs’ “fires”.

  • choicelady : KT – I think it was “what a maroon”. My brother’s fave when he was a kid.

  • seehowtheyrun : Reading about the media bias and the unconscionable GOPers, where’s my WINE?

  • KillgoreTrout : Murph, what a poltroon! (thanks Bugs Bunny)

  • choicelady : Murph – wow – she was suspended??? That is so creepy when she was just asking a question!

  • AdLib : seehowtheyrun – That comes from Three Blind Mice, the Three Stooges theme song, very appropriate when aimed at Repubs!

  • choicelady : glenn – right from the beginning, Hiltzak simply told the truth about enrollments. Never soft soaped the breakdown of the online system but IMMEDIATELY noted it was working when it was. He’s been accurate and fair every time he’s written in criticism and in praise. I LOVE him. Big, wolly bear of a guy, he’s NOBODY’s patsy.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- a local reporter in the St. Louis Market made a big wave in an interview with the State’s Insurance Commissioner asking him what he suggested the working poor do since they fall into the chasm between medicaid and ACA subsidized private insurance….he looked at her stunned, told her she was misinformed and a tool of the Democratic Party and then waltzed around the question. She was off the air for three days.

  • AdLib : CL – As years go by, there will be a real divide between the standard of living in Southern/Repub states and those states that have the Medicaid aspect of the ACA. Hat Trick was describing how the ERs are full of people who have the flu…in a state where 25% of the population are uninsured. That will only grow there and in other southern states…while the rest of the US has less medical burdens and a healthier, more productive population. It’s a path to destruction they’re paving for everyone in their states.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – we’ve been beating that drum for YEARS. Only Nancy Pelosi sticks it to the reporters, and she’s very soft spoken even when speaking truth to power. We do need more forceful supporters indeed!

  • Beatlex : Christie is the WALRUS! Goo Goo Goo Joob!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I’m ahead of the game this weekend. It’s already done. ;)

  • seehowtheyrun : Murph. I’m invested. I’ve got 10+ years left that I have to pay for private insurance. I just made a local political connection at Christmas dinner, so I’m anxious to get going..

  • glenn : CL–don’t follow the LA Times much; what does Drew Hiltzak have to say?

  • Sabreen60 : CL, I don’t know if the media will not give the Dems air time or if the Dems are sitting on their hands. Where are our forceful Reps? They’re not even on TV talking about 1.3 million people who will lose all income tomorrow. I really don’t understand. I haven’t been that impressed with Debbie Wasserman-Schult z. I think we need in-your-face hard-ass Dems – not uncivilized. But every show I see with a Repub & Dem the Repub beats the Dem over the heat with club.

  • choicelady : KT appears to be preparing his music thread right here in front of us all…

  • KillgoreTrout : CHOOBA CHOOBA!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : SHTRun….great. …we have to jump in early and hard…we are fighting for the future of progressvism in this.

  • choicelady : glenn – I think you’re correct. I see the ‘It was a disaster’ mantra as a CYA move by the liberal leaning reporters to say “See? I’m NOT an Obamabot and can think for myself” thereby proving they do not think for themselves… I’m in love with Drew Hiltzak the BUSINESS writer for the LA Times for telling the truth and damned the consequences. Who knew he’d be my pin up boy?

  • seehowtheyrun : KT: KOO KOO KA CHOO!

  • KillgoreTrout : LOL!

  • Beatlex : Killgore! I hadn’t even thought of that one-Kudos,may I touch your garment?

  • seehowtheyrun : Thanks Murph. I’ll be working hard to help do that.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : ALL- I was at a meeting earlier this week with ACA advocates. Bottom line…WE HAVE TO HOLD THE SENATE….and we have to UNDERMINE THE GOP MAJORITY IN THE HOUSE…if we lose the Senate then….as a legislative specialist showed us there are dozens of routes through which the GOP can sabotage ACA in very significant ways.

  • KillgoreTrout : Beatlex, “see how they run like pigs from a gun!” That’s the TPers for sure.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I don’t ever take PBO for granted, but once people start getting health care including dental, their lives will change, and yes, the Red State impoverishment NOT alleviated with Medicaid will be a factor in those votes.

  • glenn : Sabreen and CL–I think the so-called “left-leaning media” has been so overpowered by the right wing screaming about “bias” that they have gone completely the other way. Not to mention that the so-called “news” departments are now just a part of the corporation; not separate entities, or “loss-leaders” like they used to be. Capitalism at its “finest”, I guess.

  • Beatlex : seehowtheyrun LOL!

  • seehowtheyrun : Thankyou CL!

  • AdLib : I usually call it the ACA since that’s it’s real name, I refused to use Obamacare when it was a wholly owned Repub term but since it’s been taken back by Obama and Dems, I use it on occasion. I do think that despite the Repubs and MSM propagandizing about what a disaster it’s been, millions of people will know by then from personal experience that it’s just not true and though the Repubs will have no choice but to run against it as their main issue in 2014 since it’s the only thing holding their party together, it will be a meaningless campaign to everyone but their hard core supporters. And I do think it could help alienate some moderates who know it’s BS.

  • choicelady : seehowtheyrun – VERY apt image!

  • seehowtheyrun : Beatlex: I wish I had thought of Lady Madonna. That’s a great song. I was thinking like the Republicans were looking like blind mice running around with their tails cut off!

  • choicelady : Sabreen – the Right and esp. the Religious Right captured the media by non-stop complaining, and we must do the same. That and boycotts of advertisers does matter.

  • Beatlex : seehowtheyrun,th at’s funny,you can see by my name I could not resist

  • seehowtheyrun : glenn: It made me very happy to see it. I hope I keep seeing more.

  • KillgoreTrout : I think the TPers did some damage to themselves with the shutdown. Boehner’s in damage control mode, as we speak.

  • choicelady : seehowtheyrun – THAT is a very cool origin. Can’t stop the damned song in my head though…

  • Sabreen60 : CL, We’ve got to push back on the media. Send email, call, tweet, whatever it takes. They have lost their minds. To bad, they want to see a program that will help keep 30 million people alive, but were pretty much lockstep in getting people killed in Iraq.

  • glenn : SHTR–that’s good news about the Obamacare bumper stickers.

  • seehowtheyrun : Hi glenn.

  • choicelady : glenn – yup. That’s the worry. But they did not vote in 2012 either, so maybe we just chalk them off and hold out for REAL Dems. GOTV is the issue especially in Red states with voter suppression.

  • glenn : Hello to you, seehowtheyrun.

  • seehowtheyrun : choicelady and beatlex: no my name came to me during the 2008 Presidential election.

  • glenn : CL–I visit “The People’s View” frequently, and I see Spandan’s and your blogs/comments, so I worry about the faux Dems and the people who won’t vote. They should be worrying about sending the republicans/tpar tiers a message–not the Dems.

  • choicelady : Beatlex – jinx – same idea!

  • choicelady : seehowtheyrun – I never see your name but “Lady Madonna” pops into my mind. Is that where it came from?

  • Beatlex : SEEHOWTHEYRUN!! Lady Madonna,children at your feet,wonder how you manage to make ends meet!

  • seehowtheyrun : Thanks AdLib! Out here on the left coast, I’ve seen several I ♥︎ Obamacare bumper stickers.

  • KillgoreTrout : Absolutelu Murph. The mention of a story in a world wide blog doesn’t hurt either. Power to the Planeteers!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hello seehowtheyrun

  • Sabreen60 : Hi, SHTR!

  • choicelady : Sabreen – PBS news tonight continued the ‘it’s a disaster’ mantra never once picking up on the successes since November. We are nationally on target for enrollments. And still they scream as they did NOT over Part D which was WORSE.

  • AdLib : Hey seehowtheyrun! Welcome to Vox!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT- Attorneys, publishing a story, fullnames….kry ptonite to the ubermensch.

  • seehowtheyrun : Hi Choicelady !

  • Sabreen60 : AdLib, My best guestimate is that the ACA will be pretty successful by Nov. 2014. I also think that people in Red states will be angry with their legislatures for not expanding Medicaid. Unfortunately, I do think the media (MSM) will play a large part in whether people will have a strong positive view or somewhat negative. To date, the media has been negative 24/7.

  • choicelady : Hi seehowtheyrun!

  • choicelady : AdLib – I know, but the GOP live in their delusions, don’t they?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn…my “awesomeness”i s in direct correspondence to the backup I have and the knowledge I got.

  • glenn : Murph–don’t want your car to be torched, so I’ll hold off on the bumper stickers for now. :)

  • choicelady : glenn – I do worry about complacency or faux Dems who will whine about something and “not vote to send the Dems a message’. The cleavage of far left with Libertarians is scary.

  • Beatlex : AdLib,nothing succeeds like success,The R’s want to make it THE issue this cycle,and will have the noise machine at full blast.The President and the democrats HAVE to get out to sell it

  • AdLib : CL – Very interesting! But the Repubs can’t replace insurance for 30 million with no insurance for 30 million. that’s not a replacement, it’s theft. And the people who need the ACA most don’t make enough to save for anything including insurance. So once again, the GOP plan is, give tax breaks to the wealthy and force the poor off of care and into destruction. Sounds about right for them but hardly a popular stand.

  • seehowtheyrun : Hi everyone ! AdLib, I think it will be close, but I think the ACA will be broadly accepted, and both sides will try to capitalize on in the elections.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn…like the slogan…if I put it on my car, it will be torched.

  • choicelady : Murph – YES!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : CL…attorneys, knowledge and sell assurance…trol l busters.

  • glenn : AdLib–I think repubs will TRY to continue ACA as a negative, but I am encouraged by Murph’s reports, and all of the other news about the ACA. However, as you know, I worry about Dems becoming complacent again. If that happens, then we have the tpers all over again.

  • KillgoreTrout : The repubs will do all their evil might to keep on trashing the ACA. Their minions will cling to that like they do Benghazi. That 20-25% that will always be with us. The slaves.

  • choicelady : Murph – totally agree. We use Ocare where we know people are OK with it, but ACA is used by our educators where we tread gently. Stupid, but there it is.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hi Sabreen

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- Like in Kentucky where the state program Kynect sells and Obamacare does not, here in Mo. we use the ACA label and avoid the “O” word…ridiculou s but necessary….so in answer to your question…yes and no.

  • choicelady : AdLib – YES! To answer the first – it WILL be broadly accepted and will be known by the GOP as the Affordable Care Act NOT “Obamacare”.

  • AdLib : Happy and Merry to you too, Sabreen!

  • glenn : Hi Sabreen!

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Sabreen!

  • choicelady : Hat – I LOVE Cleveland, too. Warts and all I’m fond of the Rust Belt.

  • AdLib : TOPIC: SINCE WE’RE DISCUSSING THIS ANYWAY, DO YOU THINK THAT THE ACA/OBAMACARE WILL END UP BEING A BROADLY ACCEPTED SUCCESS BY ELECTION DAY 2014, WILL IT HAVE A MIXED REPUTATION OR WILL REPUBLICANS BE ABLE TO RUN ON IT AS A NEGATIVE?

  • choicelady : Sabreen!!!! Merry merry and happy happy right back atcha!

  • choicelady : glenn – just heard the Rethugs are deciding ACA is here to stay – and they’re gearing up to REPLACE IT anyway with things such as health savings accounts (nice for the rich) and some unknown Ryan plan. So they ACCEPT it – and are preparing to change it. Definitely vote DEM for health care!

  • Hat Trick : CL, Cleveland is not far from Nickel City. And, I grew up there. I took our family to the Chautauqua Institute, not far from Buffalo a few years ago. It’s a wonderful oasis.

  • Sabreen60 : Merry, Merry, Happy, Happy Planeteers!

  • AdLib : Murph – So is it a begrudging acceptance that they’ll swallow their disdain for Obama to get insurance or are they starting to recognize the Repubs have been lying to them?

  • choicelady : Murph – thank goodness you’re there. It helps people to understand the balance between out of pocket and premiums – and having you walk them through is EXCELLENT.

  • glenn : Murph–I think we should have a new slogan going into 2014. “If you like your new insurance, vote for a Democrat.”

  • choicelady : Hat – doesn’t matter, you had that chance to be there. It’s lovely country. Buffalo? Not so much…

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn- thanks the numbers have gotten a bit encouraging. I think this thing is going to stick.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- What is happening now is that I am talking with folks on the phone who are often at computers…..I don’t actually sign them up, but I walk them through the application process…someti mes page by page. It helps. I have had a number of neighbors ask for help and I have witnessed a number of them go all the way through the application process, and then get their results. We review the options. I was shocked when my HVAC man told me that he needed my help. He was going to go for a Silver plan, but he needed a gold….that was an interesting experience.

  • choicelady : KT and Murph = roll out the attorneys at every opportunity. Works like a charm.

  • Hat Trick : It was a long time ago

  • glenn : Murph–you are so awesome! You didn’t let that “officer” intimidate you at all. BTW, did you get his name? Don’t you “love” the way bullies back right down when you don’t play their game? Or, rather, play their game better than they do?

  • choicelady : Hat – St. Lawrence U – gorgeous area! Lucky you!

  • KillgoreTrout : Murph, the mention of attorney’s always makes them think twice.

  • AdLib : Murph – You handled that great but what an outrage! Cowards.

  • Beatlex : AdLib,I’m ready!

  • choicelady : Murph!!!!! OMG – that was PERFECT and yes – the thugs and goons abound in trying to stop people from signing up. Thank you for standing up for yourself and the program!!!

  • AdLib : Beatlex – Just having an initial conversation, topic coming up.

  • choicelady : Beatlex – we haven’t gotten to a topic yet. Just noodling.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- thank you for thinking of me. It has been a hard road. I even got a call this week from the Officer of the Commissioner of Insurance to ask if I was a “licensed agent”. I told them I was not and that all I did was offer advice. I was warned that I might be overstepping and in danger of violating the law. Thugs. I gave them my attorney’s number and then asked for the name and position of the person to whom I was talking. I told him I need the info as I would be writing up my conversation for an article on a national blog. He got very quiet. I loved how he finished: “Sir, I was implying nothing. We just want to be sure that you were aware of the limits. It sounds like you understand them very well…..and uh, thanks for helping out.” Click.

  • Hat Trick : CL & KT, Canton, NY – St. Lawrence U.

  • Beatlex : Glenn,a free for all I guess

  • choicelady : glenn – If Mother Goose suits you, it would be lovely! I always found that image soothing and compelling not at all silly.

  • glenn : Beatlex–what topic?

  • choicelady : glenn – It is so open to ‘creative expression’ that it becomes an opportunity for missed shots, doesn’t it? The troop was excellent – everyone spot on the money in timing and execution of the moves. But I have a deep fondness for the Buffalo one that was far more ‘amateur’ but had THREE of my neighbor kids in it for two years in a row. THAT was fun!

  • Beatlex : Whats the topic?

  • glenn : CL–I think you should go with Mother Jones and I’ll go with Mother Goose–how about that?

  • glenn : Murph–good news on the ACA sign-ups!

  • KillgoreTrout : Mother Jones would fit.

  • AdLib : CL – That’s not who you are. Maybe Wonder Woman?

  • choicelady : KT – I am pretty wedded to NOT having a male image tho. And I positively HATE Joan d’Arc (who fundies think was Noah’s wife – seriously). So I’m not coming up with anyone. Mother Jones maybe?

  • glenn : CL–I liked the Nutcracker last year better than this one; they put in a couple of changes that I didn’t think did anything to enhance the ballet, but what do I know? I only go once a year, so I’m definitely not an expert.

  • choicelady : AdLib – it’s the short, dumpy look not the overall meaning that suits me.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I think a Knight would be more appropriate. You do well in battle.

  • AdLib : Murph – So are you getting a higher percentage of sign ups?

  • choicelady : Murph – I got an email from the Region IX Director of HHS saying that ACA enrollments are ON TARGET nationally, and I thought of YOU because w/o you, MO would lag seriously. Thank you.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hat Trick – a special welcome to you…..don’t be shy…or just observe….eithe r way is just fine with us.

  • AdLib : CL – It is ironic, your being a “pawn”. I don’t think so.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I will look into it, but I think the pawn sort of captures me…

  • MurphTheSurf3 : I had SOOOOOO many calls to make for ACA it is hard to imagine….it seems the word is creeping out….no thanks to the Creeps.

  • KillgoreTrout : Hat, where in upstate NY? Beautiful country BTW.

  • AdLib : CL – Just joking, you have to register your own email but it is quick and easy. When you have a few minutes, give it a try!

  • choicelady : Hat – WHERE in upstate NY? I lived in Buffalo for 16 years. Miss it all.

  • Hat Trick : Killgore Trout, I had the option to play and study in Beantown. But, my older brother was captain for his college team there for three years and I didn’t want to be known as … “younger brother” any longer. So, I went upstate NY.

  • choicelady : Hey Murph! How about you? Hope your Christmas was bright!

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Murph!

  • glenn : Hey Murph! My yule was cool; how about you?

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, absolutely! Go Bruins!

  • choicelady : AdLib – I THINK I will trust you to find a good one unless it’s Dana Carvey as the “churchlady”. That – not so much.

  • AdLib : Hey Murph! Happy Mid-Holidays!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Having a Kool Yule y’all?

  • choicelady : KT – I’m so glad you obeyed the Boston laws. Yes – you MUST support the team.

  • AdLib : CL – I’m going to surprise you one day with an avatar if you don’t get one. And I promise, it will be surprising!

  • choicelady : Hat – Oh that’s amazing! Bobby Orr is an in-law neighbor! How cool!

  • KillgoreTrout : I watched plenty of hockey when I lived in Boston. It’s a city ordinance to do so! ;)

  • choicelady : Hat – I’ve been here for YEARS and don’t have one, so there is no rush!

  • Hat Trick : I used to wear #4. Orr lives in same building with my in-laws in Beantown.

  • AdLib : glenn – Mmm…Italian Christmas! Sounds delicious! And the Nutcracker, how fun. My wife loves it, we didn’t get to go this year but hope to next year. What a lovely Christmas! And no break down, that’s a plus!

  • choicelady : glenn – that sounds nice, and I’m really glad you could get through it with peace. We saw the Nutcracker last Friday, and it was wonderful – best I’ve ever seen.

  • Hat Trick : ChoiceLady, I have been busy. I will get one. But, it’s like potato peeling. I can only do one at a time.

  • choicelady : Hat – playing in college must have been fun, but I think you made a wise decision! My claim to fame is that Bobby Orr and I have the same birthday. That’s sort of it. Followed Boston and Buffalo and a few others, but not smart about it or a deeply committed fan, just like it when I do see it.

  • Beatlex : Killgore,for sure,one can get a little more creative at night too!

  • glenn : AdLib–I had a nice Christmas with my family–and made it through the day without breaking down. First time in four years I’ve been able to do that; so it was a good day. Got to eat some of my son’s-in-law outstanding lasagna and eggplant parmesan. We had an “Italian” Christmas–we had our turkey and ham on Christmas Eve after attending the Nutcracker Ballet–a new holiday tradition we began when I moved up here to GA (the ballet, not the turkey and ham).

  • AdLib : Pawns of Avatar – Sounds like a new James Cameron movie, CL.

  • Hat Trick : Glenn, Hi. Thanks.

  • choicelady : Oops – the PAWNS of the non avatar group. I think it means we’re related.

  • choicelady : Beatlex – like your avatar! Hat and I and glenn and a couple of others are the “

  • Hat Trick : Too small for pro. Played college, then realized that I could get more out of college if I applied myself as a student.

  • KillgoreTrout : That’s right CL. There is something rotten in Jersey (Denmark)

  • AdLib : OT but how could one not smile at this headline, especially during the holidays when we’re supposed to be thinking about love and generosity? “Utah, growing desperate, to ask Supreme Court to halt gay marriages” «link»

  • choicelady : Hi Beatlex- I’ve been off for several weeks, so I don’t know if you’ve been here before, but welcome anyway.

  • choicelady : Hat – that’s good to know.

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Beatlex! I consider a late breakfast as a treat.

  • choicelady : KT – I understand the aid has been given to governors of the states hit by Sandy, but that Christie has failed to pass it on. Still and all the re-elected him. Duh.

  • Hat Trick : ChoiceLady, My wife works in an ER in Texas. She sees everything and everyone, as EMTALA makes it possible for all to be screened.

  • Beatlex : Killgore,I enjoy a good breakfast for supper too!

  • choicelady : glenn – it is great I have lots of time off. I’m sleeping a lot, and it’s helping.

  • KillgoreTrout : I read that a lot of hurricane Sandy victims still haven’t received any aid. That’s unforgivable.

  • glenn : CL–Sorry to hear you’re not 100%; but glad to hear you’re not letting it get you “down”.

  • AdLib : glenn – How was your Christmas?

  • choicelady : Hat – that surely explains the name! Were you pro? I confess to a great love of hockey – minus the fights – for it’s amazing pace and tactics.

  • glenn : Hey KT, and hi to you, HatTrick. I love breakfast for dinner, too.

  • AdLib : Hat Trick – What’s similar is that the poorest lose the most, sometimes all they have and aid never seems to trickle down to them to the degree that would profoundly help them.

  • choicelady : Hat – I’m picking up on your wife’s work. Are the people she’s seeing documented and with health care? These are the things that make that SO important – it needs to be universal! I hope SHE will be OK exposed to it all.

  • glenn : Evening, AdLib, sounds like you had a relaxing holiday. Good to hear.

  • Hat Trick : Choicelady, I used to play.

  • KillgoreTrout : I love breakfast in the late evening.

  • choicelady : glenn – I’m pretty OK. Been battling a very low grade but annoying “something” for the last week. Not enough to kill the good times though.

  • Hat Trick : AdLib, It’s quite similar. But, this time, the group affected is different. About half the people affected are Hispanic.

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey glenn. Good to “see,” you.

  • glenn : Hey CL–My holiday is going well; how about you?

  • AdLib : Hat Trick – Pancakes sound great!

  • choicelady : Hat – it’s just the name. Used to hang with a hockey fan, so…

  • KillgoreTrout : I am.

  • AdLib : Evening glenn!

  • choicelady : Hi glenn! How is your holiday going?

  • glenn : Good evening, all!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL is in da house! How goes it?

  • choicelady : Hi KT – hope you’re well!

  • AdLib : Hat Trick – I was spending some time in Louisiana before and after Katrina, I truly understand the devastation you’re describing and how abandoned people feel and are.

  • KillgoreTrout : Same to you Ad. I hope all is well.

  • Hat Trick : Now, Austin.

  • choicelady : Hi AdLib – yes, we had a lovely, quiet day. Going into Berkeley tomorrow to see friends, but that’s the high point!

  • Hat Trick : Maybe. I have lived lots of places.

  • choicelady : Hi Hat Trick – don’t I know you from somewhere?

  • AdLib : Evening CL! We did and hope you did too!

  • Hat Trick : Thanks, Killgore Trout

  • KillgoreTrout : Greetings Hat Trick. Welcome to the Planet.

  • choicelady : Evening everyone. Hope you had a lovely Christmas if you celebrate it, or a day off at least if you don’t.

  • Hat Trick : I know. Believe me, I know.

  • AdLib : Hey KT! A Happy mid-Holidays to you!

  • Hat Trick : I am glad you had a relaxing holiday. Our family did too. We chilled when we could. My wife gets off tonight at 10:00pm. We’re going to have pancakes.

  • AdLib : And TX ranks 50th in those insured so no doubt the ERs have to be flooded with people suffering from the flu. Nearly 25% of Texans have no health insurance.

  • KillgoreTrout : What’s up Planeteers?

  • Hat Trick : I realize their plight. I have seen their homes. They have children scattered with extended families because their personal property (beds, clothing, etc) was destroyed when their homes were flooded with 5′ of water.

  • AdLib : We had a very quiet and relaxing time, usually many more people but this Christmas was a less hectic one…kind of needed.

  • AdLib : Hat Trick – Wow…that’s awful and I fear that the federal aid will be routed away from them and into the pockets of Perry’s friends and allies. There’s never enough money from government after a disaster to fully finance a rebuilding, just a partial amount, the rest would be a loan. And for people living in such difficult circumstances, that would be very tough.

  • Hat Trick : How was your Christmas or Hanukkah?

  • Hat Trick : Yes. In general. My wife has been slammed at work in the ER. Lots of flu in Texas. The girls are on break. The folks affected by the Austin Onion Creek flood are happy to know Tx Gov. Perry asked Pres. Obama on 12/12/2013 for $ to re-build. And, a week later, Pres. Obama agreed. But, families affected are without gas & utilities. They wonder if any Federal funds with “trickle down” thru Texas govt entities to help them re-build their homes. Some are depressed. They know they are SOL. The City of Austin will buy out some property owners. But, not all. So, they are in a Catch 22. They are in a flood plain because that’s what they can afford, but they won’t have enough $ to re-build to comply with requirements to construct 6′ above grade (to be out of the flood plain). So, some friends and I have been trying to brighten their spirits by doing what we can to make their challenges less onerous by doing what we can. Whether our efforts have contributed to anything that has happened is not important. But, I am sleeping pretty well because I know we were not on the sidelines as bystanders. That’s a long way of saying, “Yes, I am having a nice Christmas.”

  • AdLib : Did you have a nice Christmas, Hat Trick?

  • AdLib : Then best that you’re here early. It can get “poppin'” pretty quickly.

  • AdLib : We don’t officially start until 7 pm PST so others will be here shortly.

  • Hat Trick : Thanks. I don’t have my skating legs beneath me yet. But, I will in time.

  • AdLib : Hey Hat Trick, Welcome to The Planet and Vox!

  • Hat Trick : First time for me tonight.

  • AdLib : OK, see you then!

  • Beatlex : See you a little later Ad

  • AdLib : Same here, Beatlex. We usually have a quieter New Year’s. Just not up to the Times Square kind of madness anymore. Nice to celebrate the New Year but not with a huge hangover. That’s Old Year’s for me.

  • AdLib : We like to pretend we’re drunk and drive slightly out of control up to police checkpoints on New Year’s. Lots of fun and a tradition for us.

  • Beatlex : Few friends over.My big bash days are behind me!

  • AdLib : Are you doing anything for New Years, Beatlex?

  • AdLib : We usually have a bigger group over but it was just a few this time, a nice break.

  • Beatlex : Hectic,but fun,and you AdLib?

  • AdLib : Hey Beatlex! Nice and relaxing. How was yours?

  • Beatlex : Early,I know.How was everyone’s Xmas?

  • AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. Hope to see you then!

 

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