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SueInCa On March - 9 - 2010

I was originally going to write this series of articles in tandem with a partner however I have decided to  move ahead on my own.  I hope I am up to the challenge.   What I will attempt to do is provide some history to understand the Religious Rights beliefs and behavior, but will concentrate more on current activities of the people and organizations of the Religious Right so that you will be able to identify them and their players.  I have found this to be extremely beneficial when watching various newscasts.  It is amazing how many people who have a hidden agenda in any given subject are brought in to the discussions as “subject matter experts”.

It is my hope that when I have finished, I will have shown you a comprehensive picture of all the different factions and how they are ultimately connected.  I will give you a bit of history because that is important in understanding their beliefs and practices but will also help to unravel the secretness of their current day plans.

Their plans really started to gel back in the 70’s with the Moral Majority and The Christian Coalition and their push to insinuate themselves seriously into the political arena.  While The Family has worked the political scene for over 60 years, the religious right is fairly new to the scene in comparison.  While they came on to the scene at different times, their beliefs and intentions are one and the same.  At best, there is a very blurry line between them, but make no mistake they are working in conjunction to dominate the world at large.

What I plan to do is to break it down in to several mini articles, and these articles will be:

The History of the Christian Right

The Mindset of Christian Evangelicals

The Players, Their Organizations

How these Organizations Impact America and the International Community

The Consequences of their Influence/Reference Material

Wish me luck as I try to relay to you all I have learned through months of research and clicking on link after link to dig deeper in hopes of uncovering the truth.  And that truth is that these people are insinuated into every facet of our lives with a mindset of Dominionism and forcing their brand of religion on ultimately the Global community at large.  My first article of the series will be out this coming Wednesday, March 10, 2010.

I also want to give a big thanks to Adlib for helping me to name the series.  I am not having problems with content but was stuck on what to name the series.  Anyway, thank you Adlib, I knew your creative mind would come through for me.

Written by SueInCa

I am a soon to be 59 Nana to Anthony who is 11. I live in Benicia CA with my husband and Shih Tsu. I worked in Banking and the Financial Industry for 24 years in Fraud, Risk Management, Account Management, Program Management, Project Management and Customer Service. I was a Fraud Investigator for Credit Card and Merchant Business and investigated internal fraud and responded to Bank robberies. I was also management in most of these positions. Now I am content to find a part time job where I am just a worker bee, no more corporate BS for this gal. I also make jewelry. I can spend hours in a bead shop just touching all the fine baubles. Only another beader would understand that one.

227 Responses so far.

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  1. Emerald1943 says:

    Hi Sue! And hello to all my friends! I have missed you all and apologize for my abrupt withdrawal into my own problems. I will not go into detail, but suffice it to say, I found that I had to “take a break” from politics. I believe it was literally making me sick. One can only feel just so much frustration when dealing with some of these issues without it taking its toll…the bane of passionate people who care deeply!

    Adlib dropped me a most kind email a couple of days ago and I replied, saying that I would return…just not sure when. Well, I’m back, for what it’s worth.

    Sue, I feel like a grade-A heel for dropping the ball on this. I am so happy to see that you have continued to dig and I look forward to reading your articles. As I dug deeper into “the Family”, I was astounded and appalled at the influence that these people have on our government. Their reach pervades every agency, even the Supreme Court. Kudos to you for keeping up the good fight!

    I am gradually “recovering” and even allowed myself to watch the news yesterday and today. I am even slightly encouraged to hear of the letter in the Senate supporting the public option! Maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel…and it’s not that on-coming train!

    Love to you all…it is good to be back among the living!

    • KQuark says:

      Everyone needs a break Em but it’s great you are back. 😎

      I have not watched the talking heads or any TV political news for months now. If you want the news it’s literally at your fingertips now so why wait for someone to tell you what the news is when you can find out for yourself.

      I just hope your break had a very positive affect on you.

    • SueInCa says:

      Welcome back Em. Not to worry, I would have gone ahead with it and actually now that I have put out two articles in the series, I am finding it easier. Perhaps I won’t cover The Family in detail and when you feel up to it you can take that one on.

      Believe me I have my hands filled with all the groups I found by clicking link after link. It takes you deeper and deeper so I am going to cover a bit on the family but really want to highlight as many of the groups as I can. They multiply like cockroaches.

      And so glad to see you back. Take it easy. Take it from me, I limit the news I watch and stay completely away from PuffHo these days. Our friends here keep us updated and it is a natural to add something I run across in the OT category now so we all participate.

    • kesmarn says:

      Em!!! It’s so good to see you back! I’m glad you gave yourself a sabbatical. It’s a wise person who recognizes when some time for retreat and reflection is needed.

      I know there are days when I have literally gotten migraines over trying to juggle more than I, in reality, was ready to cope with. Our bodies have a way of saying: enough!

      Anyway, I’m so relieved that you chose to come back. Sometimes the laughter around here is the best medicine, and lately we’ve been indulging in a lot of medicine!

    • Chernynkaya says:

      Emerald! So great to see you again! And believe me-- I get it, no explanation necessary.

    • Blues Tiger says:

      Welcome back Emerald!!! 😀

  2. BigDogMom says:

    Sue good luck and look forward to the first installment….

  3. Kalima says:

    Just want to wish you all a good night and be safe.

    My kitty food for the week has just arrived and I could do with a small crane to help me lift it into the kitty food cupboard, so off I go.

    Take care.

    • KQuark says:

      Afternoon K. God my Arthur is eating like he’s pregnant or something. I never had a cat that ate so much. I put him on some “diet” cat food with more greens and stuff but he stinks up the whole townhouse when he uses his litterbox. I don’t know what to do. I should have not named him after King Arthur because he thinks he’s Henry the VIII.

      • Kalima says:

        Hi yourself K, I hadn’t logged off yet, the cupboard looks daunting.

        Have you checked for tapeworms, I suppose you have, it is sometimes a cause of overeating.

        Now I’m ready to log off. See you later.

        • KQuark says:

          Oh yeah it’s just him packing it in and it shows. The problem with the “diet” food is he likes it so much he eats almost twice as much. I guess our always having some food in their bowl approach is just not working for Arthur. The only problem is Penny does not eat enough. She’s never been over 9 lbs while Arthur is getting close to 24 lbs. Arthur is a big cat and at 19-20 lbs he looks normal but the extra few lbs show.

          • choicelady says:

            KQ -- the only hope is taking up any food after meals. And then you have to live with the pitiful meowing of a clearly starving cat. If that negatively impacts Penny -- if she’s a nibbler -- then that won’t work. I guess I’d go back to the un-diet food and see if ironically he eats less. I have two cats with the same problem -- the male is a Maine Coon BUT is also porky -- and have no real solution. I think mine does need to be checked for worms, but it sounds as if King Arthur is just a glutton. Hard to control =- good luck!

    • Chernynkaya says:

      Good night, Kalima-- and all. I have to turn in now too. What a night!

  4. choicelady says:

    Thank you all for your kind words, but it is Sue who is doing all the heavy lifting on this series! I get to sit back and coast. My hat’s off to you, Sue! I can hardly wait to read it all!

    I find the religious insights of everyone, lapsed or practicing Catholic to Agnostic marvelous! I think I’ve said before -- despite my job, I do not belong to a church. Spirituality and, more important, moral decency, are not confined to a religion or to religion as a whole. I think you all would find my allies in my world totally in sync with each and every one of you and would not give a rip if you did or did not believe in God. Because, among othe things, who can REALLY say who/what God IS? I tend to come down on the side of whoever said once that the only honest thing you CAN be is Agnostic. So I’m a hopeful agnostic but with a real commitment to the teachings of, yes, Jesus, Maimonides, Buddha, Muhammed (pbuh), MLK, Jr., Gandhi, A.J. Muste, and even that old reprobate, Bertrand Russell. And I find Oscar Wilde and Groucho Marx useful, too. The United Church of Christ has a seris of slogans. One is “Don’t put a period where God only put a comma.” It’s on their banners and in their churches. The author of the comment? Gracie Allen. Enlightenment is everywhere.

    Difference between us and “them” (besides the fact I never EVER owned that much make up) is in the BEST T-shirt slogan I ever saw:

    “Lord please deliver me into the company of those searching for the truth, and save me from those who have found it.”

  5. Blues Tiger says:

    Makeup lesson with Tammy Faye Bakker


    • Chernynkaya says:

      As much as I ridiculed her and disliked her brand of Christianity, when I saw her before she died, it was one of the saddest sights I’ve seen. This poor, desperate person. Here she was, literally dying, and still couldn’t give up her version of vanity. If Vanity is a mortal sin, this personifies why it is is thought to be, for me.

      I warn you, this is Tammy Faye on Larry King and it’s painful.

      • Khirad says:

        I notice the same irony from the most Christian right politicians. They are dressed in war suits, often, but clearly concerned about looking appealing. It’s always perplexed me, on many levels. I think it has more to do with the propensity to authoritarian conformity to standards of beauty in a repressed form. In cases like this and Crouch, obviously, overcompensated and a whole different level of some sort of psychological manifestation.

        I really do think these women more often than not have to have had, whether admitted or not, a history of abuse -- most likely sexual, as children. It really does fit. This type of, oh, how do I explain it? Sorry, I can’t quite complete the thought. I think someone like Questinia could do a better job of grasping where I’m going with this. I’m definitely getting disturbingly pop-psychology here.

        But seriously, it is really sad. And I mean that. I really think they turn to this type of black and white version of religion for the certainty of comfort it provides. Of a male father figure who will always be there and always love them (when I truly believe the teachings of Jesus are much deeper than that, it is a legitimate component). I think they really need it, and I’ve always felt guilty taking that away from people. Of course, when they go to lengths to try to force their beliefs on me, or disparage my beliefs, well -- all bets are off to me being a gentleman and simply respecting our differences at that point, when they can’t respect my beliefs.

      • escribacat says:

        Holy shit.

      • Kalima says:

        I saw that when I was still at HP and was rather shocked by the profanity used by some of the posters there. It was a literal free for all about her suffering and it left a bitter taste in my mouth as I then still believed that I was on a “Progressive” site.

    • Kalima says:

      I haven’t seen eyelashes that length since the black and white photos of the Mary Quant “Swinging Sixties” make-up and what a very untidy make-up bag.

      Can anyone remember the last time your nails were that long after washing, cleaning, scooping out kitty litter, washing up dozen of cat plates after your own, scrubbing loos etc??

    • escribacat says:

      Can you imagine being so hollow that your identity revolves around false eyelashes? Wow.

  6. Blues Tiger says:

    You might not enjoy this…


    • Khirad says:

      Yes, yes, yes, the purple haired lady! I used to watch TBN ironically in my teen years. Quite frankly, I can’t take it any more. I had a friend who used to live near their studio. Even the outside is full of gaudy gold.

    • choicelady says:

      Is there some reason she does not move? Will her make up crack or something? It’s very weird. I mean above the obvious weirdness.

    • PatsyT says:

      I have seen female impersonators with more restraint

    • escribacat says:

      Is that a spoof or did she actually tell them to give their “little grocery money” to the church?

    • Chernynkaya says:

      OMG. I am just so bewildered about-- forget her theology for a minute-- WHY does she look like that? I understand the fundie LDS women dressing very conservatively, I get that. But she is trying to look so tarty. And from the 70’s. I see several of her ilk on TV, and what’s the deal? And the men too-- all blow dried hair. I am hardly a fashion plate, but I do know what is considered stylish and she is no style I can think of. It is clownish, and I don’t understand who that appeals to in 2010.

      • choicelady says:

        I also wondered when it was that “born again” women (we used to hear them say they were “saved”) looked so tarty.

        Well, one anti-abortion protester once turned to a group of pro-choice people and told them to F*CK off. When one of the pro-choice people gasped in mock horror, the anti said, “I’m born again. I can do anything I want.”

        There you have it. It’s apparently a ‘get out of jail free’ card.

        • Chernynkaya says:

          C’Lady-- if only it was a get out of jail free, I might reconsider! 😉 Well, they find out about that eventually, huh?

          Here’s a funny irony that my non- believer, Chinese husband doesn’t seem to get:
          Whenever he talks about these born-agains, he always says, “They’ll be sorry when they are in Hell!”

          I keep trying to point out to him that he can’t say he doesn’t believe in God if he believes in Hell. But he doesn’t seem to get that. :-)

          • choicelady says:

            I don’t know, he might be on to something? Maybe there is no judge and we self-select by the degree of our stupid hypocrisy. The world we inhabit perhaps has a trap door that tips open under the weight of self righteousness? Or make up.
            Or both.

            • Chernynkaya says:

              Well, I believe in God but not in Hell, so I suppose to some that’s an irony too.

              I love the trap door idea though! Especially one that opens at too much make-up. :-)

      • Kalima says:

        “Giving it to God?” she’s wearing half of it on her face. I can’t believe that someone would fall for this even if they were a mile high, 24/7 a day. Before I clicked on the video I thought it was a commercial for garden gnomes.

        Pass the “barf” bags please, I need some for my kitties too, they’ve turned “a whiter shade of pale.”

        No Cher, this is not fashion now, it’s a leftover from “Dallas.”

        • Chernynkaya says:

          😀 And that’s an insult to garden gnomes! It really just baffles me!

          • Kalima says:

            It makes me feel physically ill to see and then hear women like this. She is not exactly a spring chicken, she looks and sounds like something out of an early 70’s “B” movie where directors thought that breathless or squeaky voices were cute. Pleeeezze, I hear that over here all the time and have the same reaction.

            My apologies to all garden gnomes btw. :(

            • Chernynkaya says:

              Same here, Kalima. She is like the Joker-- or worse, she is like a caricature of women by someone who hates women! She is actually an insult to womanhood! She is like those sick people who are addicted to plastic surgery.

              This just occurred to me: Someone who is so plastic herself, who hates her natural state to this degree, is someone who makes religion plastic and phony. She has no clue what authenticity is.

            • Kalima says:

              Yes I agree with your “insult to womanhood” and about the plastic surgery, this is what I meant about her “giving to God” and wearing half of it on her face, the money people are stupid enough to give her I mean.

              I live in an immature culture where any woman over 25 is considered old, so you can imagine how I react when I see the over 60 year old women on tv, acting and speaking like 20 year olds. It infuriates me that they feel that they have to do this. I throw things at the screen and curse a lot.

      • Blues Tiger says:

        Well, I am sure it’s more frightening to see her first thing in morning without all that!!! 😯

        Just thought I would provide the visual…

        heh heh heh

      • escribacat says:

        Like Tammy Faye Bakker. It must be a sect called the “Floosarians.”

    • PatsyT says:

      That is freaking me out !

    • SueInCa says:

      That stupid beeyatch. She is why seniors resort to eating cat food. If I could find her, I would rip that wig and the eyelashes and that stupid necklace off her body.

      “You have that little bit of grocery money, send it to me I need a roll of toilet paper to wipe up the stink in my house…………….”

      • escribacat says:

        Agreed. She’s about as low as you can go.

      • Blues Tiger says:

        As I said I am an Agnostic, not because I am not familiar with Christianity but because I am very familiar with Christianity,religion and biblical history…
        I saw Paul Crouch dressed in fatigues using a pointer to point at a Map of Europe with pictures of missiles on it blessing our nuclear war heads… I don’t know if you are aware but Crouch and some of his End Time buddies have connections to Rev. Moon…

  7. PepeLepew says:

    Honestly, and I mean no offense to anyone, but I’m having a bit of an issue with non-Catholics posting that the Catholic Church calls Jews “Christ Killers.”

    If any actual honest-to-goodness Catholics want to respond, I will welcome their points-of-view.

    I don’t want to hear, “well, this is what I heard…” from non-Catholics.

    • KQuark says:

      There are always conflicts with religions because in the end many of them think their beliefs are the most righteous. All I can do is relate my personal experience with the Catholic church I went to and it was always very friendly with the Jewish community. Even more so that with the Protestant community to be honest. Living in NE NJ we always had a relatively large Jewish community and I personally treasured that fact.

      Cher knows I can be pretty biased towards Israel and other Jewish causes because of my life’s experiences which include our churches openness to the Jewish community.

      • Chernynkaya says:

        Absolutely, KQ-- more forgiving than I am on occasion. Please see my apology to Pepe and any other Catholics who I might have offended above.

        • KQuark says:

          I also meant to say you have every right to comment because it does not matter what end of the discussion you come from, everyone’s opinions should be heard.

          I had one Catholic aunt who said antisemitic remarks that really shocked me the last time I visited her before she died. I frankly don’t know where that came from because I’ve never heard my father or other aunts and uncles say anything antisemitic. Prejudices come from all places and people with very similar experiences act quite differently as adults.

    • Chernynkaya says:

      I am glad you are being straight, Pepe. I never once stated that the Catholic Church, today, in the US, teaches that Jews are Christ-killers. They did historically, and I think on that we can agree. I am terribly sorry if you took it to mean that, because I don’t want to leave anyone with that impression.

      What I am saying is that I --and more to the point-- my relatives in Poland and Russia-- were victims of anti-semitism. I was raised in the US, so I never encountered the worst of it, but my experiences as I recounted here were real. I said earlier that I am not saying the Church in the US still teaches that Jews killed Christ.

      And I think it’s best to just drop the subject. I have no terribly strong feelings about this and have no desire to argue about it.

      • KQuark says:

        I’m also not oblivious to the fact that conflicts still exist between the official Roman Catholic church and Jewish people. Just recently the Pope had to explain himself for accepting a conservative bishop back into the church who denied the Holocaust.

        http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1084209.html

      • PepeLepew says:

        What you did say, is “Kids I knew told me this …”

        You want to drop it because you’re wrong and you know it.

        • Chernynkaya says:

          Here’s my quote:

          “Kids I went to school with in LA were taught that. Now, whether they heard it in Church, I don

          • PepeLepew says:

            I guess my frustration is that I feel that people who never attended Catholic Church, never went to Catholic Sunday School, never went to Catholic School somehow think they know what Catholicism is about.

            Look, Catholics have not had to put up with anything remotely close to what Jews have had to throughout history. In fact, throughout history Catholics have been some pretty evil fucks. But, in modern history, Catholics have had to put up with a lot of crap in the U.S. and Canada, a lot of discrimination, etc. A lot of evil shit with abuse by priests, etc. So, I get deeply, deeply frustrated with non-Catholics thinking they actually have a clue of what Catholicism is about. I was frustrated by your statement of “Kids I went to school with in LA were taught this.” Well, you don’t know where that came from, and that statement was to me an indictment of the entire faith.

            In a weird way, a lot of Catholics feel like the only people allowed to criticise Catholicism are Catholics.

            OK, I don’t want to fight, and I respect you. But, you offended me.

            • Chernynkaya says:

              Pepe I agree 100% that the only people who have the right to criticize a religion are those in it-- or maybe those who have grown up in it but at some later point, left it. But certainly it is NOT ok from someone outside a religion to criticize it. And really and truly-- I am not criticizing Catholicism.

              And I am glad that you explained your feelings so that I could respond. And I also now realize that because the Church has come under criticism in North America, you are rightfully upset about that. That is something that as a non-Catholic I wasn’t aware of.

              And I respect you too, Pepe. Are we OK now? I know I am.

            • PepeLepew says:

              OK. :)

      • SueInCa says:

        According to this website, the Catholic changed their teaching about Jews in 1965

        http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_jesu5.htm

        • PepeLepew says:

          Merci!

        • Kalima says:

          I think that the whole point is that if this was the case, even before this, we were not taught to blame the Jews for the death of Christ in our schools run by nuns and neither did our families, relatives or family friends ever express this belief.

          • SueInCa says:

            I spent my fair share of time in Catholic church and I never heard it either. But historically people of the church have made statements and I think there are people out there who for whatever reason are prejudiced. My thought is that is where the term was passsed on. Fanatics will read something like the website I posted and turn it into their own version of the truth or use it for their own prejudices.

            • Kalima says:

              That was my point about Hitler and further down about the leader of the cult Aum Shinrikyo before their two sarin attacks here. A total mishmash taken from dozens of other religions and claiming the end “mess” as their own. Both “leaders” when cornered hid in a bunker and the latter in a small space under one of their buildings proving that in the end, they were just crazy cowards.

      • PepeLepew says:

        I don’t dispute that, but you also said “I heard kids I went to school with in LA were also taught this. That’s what I HEARD.”
        Maybe they went to a crappy church or maybe their parents were full of it, but I’m telling you that is NOT Catholic doctrine in my lifetime.

      • Blues Tiger says:

        I didn’t make that statement either and I did my best to clarify it…

    • Kalima says:

      I understand completely Pepe and agree. I usually keep away from religious threads because my faith is something I have never worn on my sleeve. I think I need a break from this subject too and intend to cuddle a cat.

  8. KQuark says:

    Excellent subject for a series and I’m looking forward to reading it greatly. The religious right is using a strategy that is centuries old and not unique to the Christian faith though most of us are more familiar with the history of Christianity. The Roman Catholic church was the biggest political entity guiding western culture for over 1,000 years from the end of the Roman empire to Reformation. In many ways that control over people’s lives and thought processes stymied progress back then like the religious right is doing today. Combining religious beliefs with political beliefs is an incredibly powerful tool for controlling people and the right knows that and uses religion as a political weapon. I just watched 1984 again last night and the “thought police” are mostly wearing crosses these days.

  9. Blues Tiger says:

    Allow me to say I am not trying to offend anybody or their beliefs… I am an Agnostic, though that was not always the case…

    There have been several questions posed here on these threads and one was about End Time Evangelicals and their beliefs about Jews and the term “Christ Killer” was used… I did my best to answer it accurately… The term Christ Killer is related to Killers Of Christ and whether you were taught in Catholic School or not or whether you ever heard associated with the Catholic Church or not doesn’t mean it didn’t originate in the Early Catholic Church… It did…
    I am not speaking of what you heard or have heard from Catholicism in your lifetime… The persecution of Jews by the Catholic Church began long before the Spanish Inquisition and is well documented…

    I wasn’t taught about Martin Luther and “Jews and Their Lies” in my Protestant Sunday Schools or in Public Schools… I am sure all of us have learned that there was loads of historical information not taught to us or was just BS…

    I am looking forward to Sue’s articles and the vigorous debate it will initiate…

    • PepeLepew says:

      I acknowledge the Catholic church did horrible things to the Jews historically, but honestly, I never, ever, once heard this Christ Killers stuff in Sunday school. Not once.

      • Kalima says:

        The majority of Catholics the world over haven’t either Pepe.

        • Chernynkaya says:

          I wish both of you were correct, but --and this is only my personal experience with some good friends who live in Europe-- Switzerland, Norway and France-- they were taught not only that Jews killed Christ, but one of my friends actually heard from her grandmother that we had horns!

          I don’t think we can paint the Roman Catholic Church with a broad brush-- after all Liberation Theology came from the Church and many Catholics were raised by more liberal elements in the Church. Many Catholics hid Jews during WW ll and saved thousands of lives. But to think that in an institution as huge as the Church there are not more conservative elements-- and anti-Semitic teachings (even if unofficial)is simply not a fact.

          I am not sure what the majority of Catholics the world over actually are taught.

          • choicelady says:

            The Catholic church, unlike the Pentacostals and End Times folks, is NOT monolithic. The “Jew Killer” mentality lived baldly in the Passion Play at Oberammergau while Pope John XXIII rescued Jews by the dozens at no small peril to himself.

            What has changed is a dreadful conformity of thought. Pope Benedict, a most learned man, is trying to abolish the teaching of evolution as real science and introduce some aspect of “Intelligent Design” into the works, dismissing evolution as “merely a theory”.

            We are in the middle of the Great Division that will be as historically significant as the Great Schism. It is no wonder that the Old Guard is hardening in many quarters. It is in peril not from “modernism” but from forces just as rigid and archaic but not the Church. The single biggest threat to Catholicism is Pentacostalism and its ‘charismatic’ fervor. At least until the dirt poor people it selects as its target discover that they are just cannon fodder for corporate America. Pentacostal End times folks do not yet have a Liberation Theology.

            • PepeLepew says:

              I didn’t know that about Benedict and evolution. The Vatican has actually had a brief history of being open-minded about evolution.

          • bitohistory says:

            After reading these comments, let me ask: What do we hear about Islam in this country? Especially from the RR?

            • SueInCa says:

              Bito
              I will save you the time(wasted) on watching one second of their shows, here she is in living color. Brace yourself, it is Tammy Faye revisited

              http://www.smileofachild.org/about/index.php/20.html

            • escribacat says:

              Wow. You think they take in a few donations on occasion?

            • Chernynkaya says:

              E’cat, it’s the International Village (?!)owned by Trinity Broadcasting network.

            • escribacat says:

              Cher, You mean that’s the Bakker’s “house?”

            • SueInCa says:

              Cher, like I said vulgar. At the very least I would be the decorator police spending my money like that, disgusting

            • Chernynkaya says:

              Here’s their place in So Cal:


            • SueInCa says:

              BT you should see their center, I think it is in southern california. If i was one of the supporters, I would be down there asking where my condo was in the building I helped to pay for. It is beyond vulgar

            • Blues Tiger says:

              Sue, life was quite a bit different out here in Oklahoma before it was invaded by the Crouches and TBN… The built a Station with the strongest signal in the state and blasted their message to every nook and cranny…

              They are one Cali export ya’ll can take back… 😉

            • SueInCa says:

              Yeah, she is a peach, huh? Or maybe she is a cotton candy? LMAO

            • bitohistory says:

              Thanks Sue. Oh I so do miss Tammy. I may not book mark this link, Sue 😆

              Edit: I couldn’t even play it Sue, the picture was way to much.

          • Kalima says:

            I would say that this is an individual thing depending on the families and their own hate, not so much a Catholic norm anywhere in the world.

            For example, if kids hear racial slurs from childhood, more often than not this shapes their views as adults because they are too lazy or too comfortable to learn any real facts. I see it in animals too. When a mother cat is suspicious of humans, the kitten react in the very same way because they are taught to fear humans from their mothers.

            I’ve taken some of these kittens in, and although they trust me, when someone comes, they will hide until they are sure that this person has gone.

            Oh I forgot to mention the great respect shown to grandparents and elderly relatives in Europe while they are still alive. You never start an argument with them out of respect even though you might know that their beliefs are wrong or outdated.

          • bitohistory says:

            And I was told by an RC that Lutherans had horns. Those horns seem to be a handy thing. 😆 What will be the popular prejudice 30-50-100 years from now?

          • PepeLepew says:

            In America, I’ve never heard that the Catholic Church teaches that Jews are Christ Killers. I don’t know anything about Europe.

            • KQuark says:

              That’s new to me as well. I was in Catholic school and even an alter boy and none of our parish priests ever said that. In fact they emphasized the opposite that because Christ was a Jew they did not look down on Jewish people at all.

              But then again I lived in a pretty liberal area of NJ so it might have been different in other areas of the country.

            • Chernynkaya says:

              Kids I went to school with in LA were taught that. Now, whether they heard it in Church, I don’t know-- could have been their parents. And I believe you that you never heard of it.

            • KQuark says:

              I have not been part of the Catholic church for decades so people’s experiences are probably different over time as well.

            • PepeLepew says:

              I went to school in the Cental Valley of California. Never heard it. Not once. My priest is now a Cardinal.

            • Kalima says:

              I would say that they heard it at home where learning really begins before a single day at school.

            • Kalima says:

              Europe and the U.K. no they don’t.

            • Chernynkaya says:

              Pepe, I keep agreeing that you never heard of it. And I am sure you know no one else that did either. But am I to take it that you think I am making this stuff up?

        • PepeLepew says:

          Not for the last 100 years, at least.

  10. javaz says:

    Thank you, Sue, for taking on such an enormous topic of great importance.
    I look forward to reading your series.

  11. Kalima says:

    Thank you Sue, I will no doubt learn a lot of things I might not have otherwise.

    Just to set the record straight about Hitler and his religious beliefs. He was raised a Catholic in Austria but became very influenced by the German Christian Social movement which was in direct conflict with the Catholic Church. This movement, remarkably, resembles the Christian Right movement in America today.

    We didn’t own a Bible, nor did we read from it.

    • SueInCa says:

      And a movement The Family aligned themselves with. As a matter of fact, some of Hitler’s most trusted people worked for the Family in Germany and Austria.

    • Blues Tiger says:

      “And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord.”
      Mein Kampf By Adolf Hitler. Volume I, Chapter II.

      “National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity . . . For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of today, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life . . . These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles!”
      Adolf Hitler Aug.1934

      “We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.”
      Adolf Hitler October 1933

      “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”
      Adolf Hitler 1941

      • SueInCa says:

        Haven’t people through the ages destroyed other people and civilizations all in the name of religion? Hitler, the Crusades

      • KQuark says:

        When anyone say “real” something talking about their beliefs the hair on the back of my neck stands straight up.

        “Real” usual means their person perversion of what a faith is suppose to be.

        Khirad would know much better but I bet radical Muslims claim to be the “real” or “true” Muslims.

        I had a technician once who went down the dark road of fundamentalists (another misnomer) Christianity. He was absolutely convinced that only people that followed his littler sliver group of Christianity was going to Heaven.

        Well I don’t believe in Heaven or Hell to begin with but I made this argument anyway. If God is all loving how could he possibly send billions of people to Hell and a couple of thousand to Heaven because they just have not even heard of his version of Christianity?

      • Chernynkaya says:

        That may be the case, BT, but I think there is controversy about that, at least according to Wilkipedia:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_views

        Anyway, the fact remains that he was certainly the antithesis of any goodness.

        • bitohistory says:

          Is there some person of any religion that has not murdered in the name of their religion? Hitler was not a “purist” of any organized religion. He was a murderer. Jews, RC’s, Lutherans, Roma’s, Poles,Croats………Any one he chose. Not because of his belief in the Roman Catholic Church or Martin Luther.

        • escribacat says:

          I’ve seen a few biography programs about Hitler talking about his interest in the occult.

      • Kalima says:

        He might have said this but he followed the teaching of Martin Luther who hatred for Jews set the standard for Protestant Germany until WW11.

        I am still a Catholic even though I haven’t attended a Church for 23 years but there is a huge difference. I’m neither fanatical, hiding behind religion to make excuses for my actions nor insane.

        • Blues Tiger says:

          Luther hated Jews and it’s not like the historical record of the Catholic Church on Jews is about love… Hating Jews doesn’t necessarily equate to following Martin Luther, especially if your Proclamation of Faith is “

          • Kalima says:

            He admired Luther’s teaching, a little bit of this, a little bit of that goes a long way. I’ve seen this mishmash of religious beliefs to try to give some false sense of respectability to actions that most people would believe to be evil or insane.

            The Aum Shinrikyo in Japan were led by such a man. They murdered people who openly criticized their cult. They stock piled weapons to overthow the government and eventually released sarin gas in the Tokyo subways and in a residential area in Nagano.

            My point is that the leader collected bits and bobs from various religions which would serve his purpose and his plans. I believe that Hitler did the same and there was always his inner fear about having Jewish blood.

            The man was mentally disturbed, you have your Pat Robinsons and his ilk just waiting in the wings, as evil as many truly evil people throughout history. I hope that they will remain contained for the sake of your country and your people. The German population was weak, tired and staving when Hitler made his promises to them, he preyed on this weakness, I hope and pray it will never happen again.

          • javaz says:

            I went to Catholic School from 1st grade through 12th, and we never learned about the Inquisition.

            Somehow they cut out that part of history, even though we covered the crusades, but not in a religious way when it came to Catholicism.

            And I never heard anything about Catholics hating Jews or calling them Christ-killers, because I was taught that Jesus started off as a Jew and then somehow once he was crucified and rose from the dead, He started Christianity.

            Amazingly, I did learn about evolution and Darwin, and it was explained that something started it all and that something was God, so in that, Catholics back then, meaning the early 60’s and through the 70’s for me, were all okay with teaching science.

            When it came time for me and college, I actually placed higher in science and math than the public school kids.

            • PepeLepew says:

              OK, we were taught about the Inquisition. We were told about it. But, we were taught that it was WRONG.

            • Kalima says:

              Exactly javaz, people choose to forget that Jesus was a Jew, amazing really.

              I never heard one word of hate about Jews or in fact people of any religion different to ours. I was taught to respect everyone, regardless of colour or creed by my grandparents who were a struggling young Catholic couple who had just adopted my mother when WW11 broke out and by the nuns in my first school. It’s ridiculous to paint all Catholics with the same brush, it is dishonest.

            • bitohistory says:

              I thought I said hello to you Kalima and it disappeared. I’ll try again. Hello!!!

            • Kalima says:

              We’ve been having a bit of a problem with comments going “poof” in the last few days but I believe that AdLib had fixed it.

            • javaz says:

              Well, I answered you, but it went poof!

              Or maybe I only think that I answered you!

              😆

            • javaz says:

              What’s scary about this Religious Right in our country, and like Sue will report is worldwide, that us Catholics are out of the Christian loop, too, when it comes to the end of days.

              Or maybe that was choicelady that explained that, but kalima, weren’t you raised to believe that you could not get to heaven unless you were Catholic?

              That’s what I was taught.

        • bitohistory says:

          Hello, Kalima, good morning.
          Adolph was neither a RC or Lutheran. He was a sick warped murderous individual. He warped religion anyway he chose into his own beliefs. It mattered not what he called himself. He killed Jews,RC’s, Roma’s, Lutherans. He murdered humans.

        • javaz says:

          I never knew that about Martin Luther -- that he hated Jews -- and I thank you for that enlightenment.

          I thought he was against the Catholic Church and formed the Lutheran Church because he hated Rome’s teachings when it came to the Catholic Church.

          Learn something new every day!

          And here I was thinking to look into the Lutheran Church, even though I dislike that they do not recognize the Virgin Mary or say the rosary.

  12. PepeLepew says:

    Here’s what I believe America would be like if the fundamentalist fanatics actually got what they wanted.
    And I mean, *really* got what they wanted. No constitution, no Supreme Court:
    First things first: All abortions would be illegal
    Homosexuality would be illegal
    Homosexuals would be rounded up and put into “re-education camps” … or worse.
    Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism would be banned. Muslims would be rounded up and deported or put in camps. Catholics, Methodists and Episcopalians, I wouldn’t get too comfortable if I were you.
    Mandatory church attendance on Sunday
    Creationism taught in all the schools. Teaching of evolution, the Big Bang and even geology would be banned.

    Read “The Handmaid’s Tale” sometime.

    • FrankenPC says:

      Or Orwell’s 1984.

    • Chernynkaya says:

      Pepe, I cite The Handmaiden’s Tale often! I honestly think the way they overtook the country is plausible.

      You talk about banning certain religions-- what do you suppose they would do to the “Christ killers?”

      • Blues Tiger says:

        The term “Christ killers” is more based in Catholicism’s persecution of the Jewish people than with End Times Evangelicals…
        Since their beliefs are more based on interpretations of Revelations and Jews conversion of Jews as Gods chosen people to Christianity and the view that Christs death was pre ordained they really don’t view Jews as “Christ killers”…

        Remember Hitler was a Catholic not an evangelical…

        • PepeLepew says:

          I grew up Catholic, and I never heard that. I know the Catholic Church was pretty horrible to Jews in Spain in olden times.

          • kesmarn says:

            Likewise, Pepe. Never heard a negative word from the nuns who taught me regarding Muslims, Jews or Protestants. But then, they were in to marching in the South for Civil Rights, too.

            Argh--unrelated--just got called in to work! Rats. B’Bye, all!

          • Blues Tiger says:

            So you actually heard about it then…

            • PepeLepew says:

              Yes, I’ve heard of the Spanish Inquisition. 😉

            • Blues Tiger says:

              Much earlier than that Pepe… But my post was based on the history of the term not what Catholics heard growing up nowadays…

          • escribacat says:

            I went through a Jesus Freak period in high school. Those cult leaders preached the “Christ-killer” stuff. I was so young and naive I didn’t realize the implications of it until a Jewish friend pointed it out to me.

      • escribacat says:

        Weird — I was just thinking about the Handmaid’s Tale yesterday.

        And yes, I think the “Christ-killers” would be escorted “away.”

      • PepeLepew says:

        Ah, that’s a good one. Honestly, I don’t know much about the fundamentalists’ take on Jews.

    • kesmarn says:

      Pepe, we might add that all women would be compelled to wear long skirts and sleeves that went down to their wrists. They wouldn’t be allowed to wear make-up or cut their hair. Holding jobs outside the home would be out. Homeschooling (not the liberal kind, of course) would be compulsory.

      And, above all, women would be required to: “stay sweet.”

      Or else.

      • boomer1949 says:

        kes,

        You mean like this?


        • escribacat says:

          Boomer, those women scare the bejeebers out of me. At the risk of sounding hysterical, I’d rather be dead than one of them.

          • kesmarn says:

            It’s a relief to know that someone else has that reaction, e’cat and boomer. I would jump off the highest temple spire rather than be compelled to smile sweetly in my Little House on the Prairie costume and “be submissive” to a swine like Warren.

            • bitohistory says:

              I picture in your starched whites, k’es.

            • kesmarn says:

              Arrrrrrrggggghhhhhhh!!

              That’s all I can say.

            • bitohistory says:

              Polished her shoes and cleaned her caps. Then made dinner. Gawd, what was I thinking? Year and a half out of school, her own money…..BYE.

            • kesmarn says:

              You ironed your ex’s uniforms, b’ito!?

              And she let you get away??

              :roll:

            • bitohistory says:

              No, k’es I liked whites (except doing them for my ex). It gave a patient some comfort that they were cared for by someone with knowledge.
              Who was the idiot that came up with black? Have they ever been to a funeral home?

            • kesmarn says:

              Like Nurse Ratchitt, b’ito? Awwwww. You hurt my feelings! 😉

              On that note: the administration at our hospital recently decided that all nurses should wear the same color…no more flowery uniforms. And guess what color they picked? BLACK.
              How’s that for cheerful? There was such an outcry that they’re now re-considering!

        • kesmarn says:

          You got it, boomer!

          But, ironically--those people would feel superior to these people:


          • bitohistory says:

            Those veils must give you, a nurse, the willys, k’es. I can’t imagine the bacteria growing in those dark, warm and humid veils.

            • kesmarn says:

              …especially when they’ve been covered with a generous helping of spaghetti, b’ito!

              Eeeeeew!

              Those poor women. And what is the point of those veils under those circumstances? Are men frequently driven to uncontrollable lust by the sight of a woman eating spaghetti? Help me out here!

            • kesmarn says:

              Brought you right back down to earth, there, my Pal! 😆

            • bitohistory says:

              Lord, k’es, that is a whole different image!! 😆

            • kesmarn says:

              Even if it’s bean, b’ito?

            • bitohistory says:

              k’es, You think that’s sexy, I get really hot and bothered when they eat soup.

        • bitohistory says:

          Don’t forget the hair-do’s. The higher they are , the closer to God.

      • PepeLepew says:

        Good one. I didn’t think of that.
        Though I think attendance at five-day-a-week Bible studies passing as public education would probably be mandatory. Wouldn’t want libruls trying to homeschool their kids.

    • SueInCa says:

      Oh Pepe, you are being generous to them. You forgot waging war on any country that does not agree with their stand. The French better not get too comfortable either. You are either good or evil, Manichean philosophy.

  13. escribacat says:

    Can’t wait to read it, Sue.

  14. choicelady says:

    Thank you, Sue! Lets me off the hook, you cannot know how grateful I am, and brings ME new insights, too. I can’t wait to read it all!

    I would like to say that there is a huge “Christian Left” though I hate that pigeonhole. The mainstream Protestant denominations working in concert with progressive Catholics, Jews, Muslims etc. do have a significant place in the world. We were very powerful in all 50 states in helping shape the better parts of HCR, and we were acknowledged for that presence by Rep. Pelosi, Sen. Sherrod Brown, and many others. Our members were transformative, at least in CA, for moving “Blue Dogs” to support of progressive parts of the impending bill.

    So how do we get thanked? Glenn Beck is urging everyone to LEAVE any church that embraces the Social Gospel saying they are communist or fascist. Jesus was a Commie? Who knew?

    We in this position (I am Public Policy director for a large organization doing advocacy on social justice. We have 1.5 million members in this mainstream, progressive Protestant community of faith) are caught between two polar opposites: the wacko RW frings (OK -- I’ve given up being nice about them) and the secular progressives who can’t believe we are not actually Jerry Falwell Lite just waiting to convert you or tell you that while, yes, we looooove you, you are just a sinner at heart.

    NOT who we are. At ALL.

    The Social Gospel tradition is not about salvation at all, is not at all convinced God exists or certainly not as an old guy with a white beard keeping tally about daily sins in a Big Book. It’s about following the teachings of Christ that radically departed from the Old Testament tribal traditions to find a new, all-encompassing form of universal love. Gooey sentimentality? Nope. A recognition of common humanity, the power of good, the destructiveness of hate and division, the inclusiveness of care for creation. Belief in a Supreme Being just often means knowing there is something bigger than self. However it manifests itself in your own hearts and minds is pretty much irrelevant (so you can keep the Big Book guy if that works for you. I don’t -- unless it’s on take off or landing…)

    I have tangled with the religious right for the better part of my own life. They are the opposite, believing “good works” are irrelevant, that judgement of others is essential (that Ann Coulter discussion of Jews needing to be ‘perfected’ is a case in point), and that personal salvation is the ONLY issue. The fact that you actually cannot find that in the New Testament is beside the point for them.

    In my encounters with the religious right, I’ve learned that they have totally come to believe in what any normal person would dismiss as rank superstition -- the End Times. Because of a faulty set of record keeping, we are supposed to be at the end of the Six Days of Creation (a day is as a thousand years, a thousand years is as a day). They believe it was 4000 years from Adam and Eve to Jesus, and 2000 years til now, so… You can do the math. This means that first will come The Rapture -- the holy are lifted from their graves and the holy on earth will be swept to Heaven leaving only their blood and skin (eeeeuuuuw) on the ground. Then will come seven years of Tribulation during which those Left Behind will be tested to see if they can repent and join the Raptured. That is probably also Armageddon (it’s a little vague) with, finally, all the bad people cleansed from the world so Jesus can come again.

    Jews are OK for now -- Christians are directed to be nice to them for those seven years (must be a comfort after 2000 years of persecution) so they will help fulfill the prophecy and rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem. Hence the coalition between Hagee et al. and Zionist Jews. Of course each prays that at the end, the others will be sent to Hell, but for the moment this works for them. Sort of.

    But the rest of us? Nonbelievers, Muslims, Hindus, Social Gospel Christians, Catholics -- we are all evil. We must be converted or removed.

    At the core then, government cannot direct our daily lives in ANY way, but theology MUST direct the course of government so that the End Times will happen. We, the evil ones, must be destroyed. Removed. Stopped. Halted. You say you accept GLBTQ people? You are an impediment to Christ’s return. You say you believe in sharing the world’s resources with those in need? An impediment to their uplifting themselves through conversion or, better even, accepting their lot in life and being humble in their starvation. You say you honor women’s autonomy? Gasp! A perversion! Out = all of you OUT!

    Never in the history of human kind has there been such an extensive pre-dispensationalist (get rid of the evil beforehand) End Times notion. You have NO idea to what lengths these people are going to take over the world. It’s global. They are sending missionaries to the most remote parts of the world to “share the word of Jesus” so they can say they did. NO one therefore will have an excuse NOT to adopt their world view. These anti-science people are using genetic modification to breed the prophetic red heifer (some place in Revelations -- can’t actually find it) with only 3 white hairs. Well -- they have five of them now, so they’re on their way.

    The Temple issue though -- still unresolved. It is creepy as all get out that the fundamental issue to the reconstruction is removal of all Muslims. Small wonder to me that we have wars in Muslim nations instigated by a True Believer.

    And here at home we have Christian Identity and a myriad of groups all willing -- eager -- to blast away those whom they hate.

    And that would be us. All of us. Convert or die. No gray, wussy middle ground here. So Glenn Beck is supporting that as is Ann Coulter etc., etc., etc.

    We no doubt live in interesting times. And if you know Chinese proverbs, you know that is a curse.

    So thank you Sue -- this is of major importance. We cannot dismiss these people lightly since time is running out for them (we are now 14 years past the Jesus is Due date) and they are no longer in power. Never underestimate their capacity for extremist revenge. After all, in their eyes, you don’t say “No” to God.

    • KQuark says:

      As usual I always love reading your posts. You know I’m not a believer because I’m just not wired that way. But I do think if people lived their lives like Jesus was said to lead his life in scripture they could not have a better role model. It just seems so obvious that real Christian fundamentalists should be asking themselves on every moral decision “What would Jesus do?”.

      Based on that Jesus would support giving all people good healthcare. Based on his example he would provide shelter and food for all. He said as much. On every issue Jesus would be a flaming liberal, much more liberal than my imperfect human soul could be.

    • javaz says:

      Choicelady, I really appreciate what you’ve written, as you have opened my eyes to the scarier parts of religion, as religion has always been such a big part of my life since I was a small child.

      As I’ve written before, I left home young because of religion and that led to many mistakes in my life, and I’ve paid dearly for some of those mistakes, but I take full responsibility for every single mistake I made, but I do forgive my younger self for being young and dumb.

      I hurt my parents and regret that to do this day more than anyone will ever know, because all they wanted for me was to raise me right, but religion can be stifling and this was way back in the early 70’s, and I was raised Catholic and as Catholics go, once you are baptized Catholic, you’re always a Catholic.

      Even though I am lapsed and no longer participate in that religion, I still consider myself a Catholic, no matter how much I despise and disagree with Rome.

      Catholics, or at least the way I was raised and went through 12 years of private Catholic school; but we were taught that you couldn’t reach heaven unless you were a Catholic.

      And if we managed to talk someone into becoming Catholic, well, that was a big bonus and assured us a place in heaven.

      I have an elderly friend and a Republican, because she believes that if a person is Christian they must be a Republican, and she is a hardcore Catholic.

      Somehow she thinks that Catholics are better than Christians or born again Christians, and I wish so much that she would be open-minded enough to realize that even she would not be of the right religion when it comes to the rapture or end of days.

      I struggle with religion everyday of my life, but not in the way you might think.

      I’m spiritual, and I do believe in a higher power and I do believe in Jesus Christ, but I am not born again and I try to live Christ-like, but if what you describe is true, I guess I’d be persecuted, too, and not deemed ready enough for Jesus.

      I truly believe that Jesus would disavow and most likely be killed, if He were to return today, He would be crucified again by the religious right.

      Jesus was all about love, whereby the Religious Right is all about hate and damnation.

      • FrankenPC says:

        I actually believe prophets have come to Earth many times with the exact same message and lesson over and over (Mohammad, Buddha, Jesus, Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr.). Until we learn that lesson, they will continue to come and we will continue to suffer because we are too primitive/ignorant to get it.

        “It” is simply this: Before we can ascend, we must learn to love and forgive ourselves.

        God doesn’t give a damn about us until we learn and practice that lesson.

        • TheRarestPatriot says:

          Geez,…you completely left Colonel Sanders off of that list. Do you have any idea how precious that scroll of 11 herbs and spices is to us Poultrites?
          ( the collection basket is for bones )
          😉

          • Blues Tiger says:

            I don’t care what they say, it was sacreligious to remove the transfat from “Extra Crispy”…

            • TheRarestPatriot says:

              I felt like picketing when they did that! Absolutely tragic…I remember in the 70s my folks would pick up a bucket and by the time they got it home the bucket was a greasy, beautiful mess….I hated the bucket for wicking away all of that heart stopping goodness…

          • escribacat says:

            I have to confess that KFC is my comfort food. Something bad happens — I’m greasing it up with the fried chicken.

            • Chernynkaya says:

              I like it too. 😳

              But for serious comfort, I’m a mac and cheese gal. The salt/fat ratio is probably similar.

            • TheRarestPatriot says:

              LOL…Right there with ya’…

          • Chernynkaya says:

            😆 !!!

        • javaz says:

          Exactly!

          Jesus was a prophet!

    • SueInCa says:

      A series on the Left would be a good thing too. A kind of window from the right to the left……….hmmmmmm the gears are turning lol.

      It amazes me that they accept the New Testament, yet base most of their doctrine on the Old Testament. But it is “Fear Factor” and it works for them in their efforts to convert. Until people see the real “chruch” they promote.

    • PepeLepew says:

      Spooky stuff!

    • kesmarn says:

      c’lady, I can’t say it too often, or in enough different ways: I love what you write and the way you write it!


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