Vox Populi – 3-15-2013

AdLib : Night, CL!

AdLib : It’s a gradual climb in The House and we may lose some in the Senate because of how this 2014 cycle works but in 2016, the stars could be aligned.

choicelady : Good night! Lovely weekend to you and yours!

choicelady : AdLib – oh I HOPE you are right! We have to undo the decades of harm and restore the primacy on sustainable self sufficiency and jobs. We shall see what comes in 2014. I hope we take BOTH houses.

AdLib : Night Choicelady, really looking forward to Friday with some solid HOPE. Have a great weekend!

AdLib : CL – Oh, they will be back at it and they will replace their racist reasons for hatred with misogyny. The key is that by then, the 2010 Repub sweep is finally reversed and the Dems once again control Congress.

choicelady : AdLib – see you Friday, and funk – see you SOON I hope. I am also heading to bed. Been a long and busy week. Take care – have a lovely weekend!

choicelady : Good night, Murph. Lovely to see you albeit too little due to my call.

AdLib : A good night back to you, Murph! Rest well!

MurphTheSurf3 : Well, it is nearly 12:30 here…a marathon..well done all. Good night to you Ad Lib and you CL….and belatedly to Funk.

choicelady : AdLib – What scares me is that if there is a residue of Baggers and conservatives, the SAME STUFF will happen. They hate her. She will be LESS able to navigate the dirty waters than Obama who has a will of iron. I’m NOT convinced she won’t be just like Bill, for different reasons, caving to the conservatives. Her heart is there for far too many issues.

AdLib : Murph – The Baggers are very effective with it on their side, Progressives need to throw their weight around with whoever gets the nom in 2016, especially Hillary who has a track record and a family on the right side of the middle.

MurphTheSurf3 : Funk- do you think OFA is really progressive or is it an Obama, govern just left of center, position? I know a number of OFA operatives and they are young, savvy and practical. I wonder.

AdLib : Sorry about that Murph!

choicelady : Murph – well, knock the server right back! The nerve of them!

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- like your progressive push scenario for Hillary…that may be viable.

AdLib : CL – Yes, I’ll be there and looking forward to seeing you!

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice…i am here…just got knocked off the server

choicelady : Well AdLib – will I see you Friday? As far as I know our CC friends are still on. Mama’s again. Yum. Hope we can do this, all four of us.

AdLib : CL – Maybe whoever called you just called him?

AdLib : CL – It will be a situation with Hillary of the Progressive Dems pushing her hard on Prog issues and nominees for cabinet (assuming she wins). She is more conservative than Obama and friendlier to the enemies of democracy, namely Wall Street. At the same time, being the first woman POTUS, she may be very mindful about leaving a better legacy than her husband’s conservative destruction.

choicelady : What happened to Murph? Missed saying goodnight!

choicelady : funk – we WILL find a way!

AdLib : Have a great weekend, Funk! We’ll do it again next week!

choicelady : ‘Night funk!

funksands : CL, don’t tease me.

choicelady : funk – sorry I was out for so long. Missed talking more. Have a great night. We are scheduled to head up to Lummi in probably July, so if all goes well, THIS time, maybe…?

funksands : Folks I am a pumpkin. I’m turnin’ in early. Great discussion tonight! Wish I could have gotten here earlier. Take care Ad, Murph, CL

choicelady : All – I never again will be totally comfortable with Hillary since finding out she admired and hung out with David Coe of “The Family” – the C Street leader. That just purely creeps me out. Of course Gore liked him, too. Cannot explain the flesh crawling I get when I think of it. BUT that said, she did a huge, great job as Sec’y of State indeed. Maybe she has outgrown Coe. PLEASE!

AdLib : I remember Hillary pandering to the conservative vote in 2008, attacking Obama for being too liberal and saber rattling about war with Iran. Will that be gone from her next run or will it be a rerun?

funksands : Ad, I don’t either. She couldn’t have handled herself any better as SOS. She’s incredibly popular and respected for good reason. The only wild card is if Biden runs, a third person could sneak in.

choicelady : AdLib – well it turns out they weren’t the screaming phoners. They say. I believe that. And there is a huge rift between CNA and the group that did that. I will just have to see how it plays out – but I told my friend who called from CNA – are we going to discuss real strategy or sit around politically masturbating. She cracked up. (It maybe was not my finest moment, but still…) We have to stop the self congratulation and DO THE WORK. CA prides itself on being a leader in all issues, and I’ve yet to see ONE since I returned in 2000. This will be a most interesting meeting. Either the start of something good – or the absolute end.

AdLib : Just being pragmatic, I don’t see how anyone beats Hillary in the Dem Primaryeven if she’s positioned as a conservaDem.

choicelady : funk – AH! Yes! Thank you!

AdLib : CL – Sounds very interesting indeed, please do keep us updated (and even feel free to write a post about it when it develops more). Hope they’ve learned their lesson after sabotaging themselves the last time around.

choicelady : Murph – we had a major catastrophic failure last year over our single payer bill. And I laid a lot of the cause to the people I’m meeting with. They had a roomful of doofuses who sat around saying, “We’re going to overthrow capitalism” and such stuff. So whether they can actually address the DETAILS and do the intricate analyses of cost that are esstential? Jury (me) is still out.

funksands : CL: Governor of Maryland

AdLib : Murph – I could be wrong but I think that once Hillary is officially running and memories are jogged about Bill’s terrible policies, many Progressives will want to ask those questions. And being contrary is a natural cycle for Progs and even the MSM. At the same time, there will be many Dems who act like Repubs, swearing full allegiance to Hillary the moment she announces and attacking other Dems who dare question her.

funksands : One thing I think is overlooked is that the OFA is now a creature of its own. And it is run and staffed and operated by a lot of progressives. It is going to raise a shitload of money and have a huge impact on the next race. If you are going to be a Presidential candidate that gets the benefit of that organization you are going to have to shape your message to fit it. I think that could be enormously beneficial and a real game-changer

MurphTheSurf3 : CL…I wonder if stories like that in time showing how profit is the real villain in the medical costs issue are driving the discussion back toward sngle payer, i.e. medicare for all…

choicelady : Oh wow is this embarrassing – who is O’Malley?

choicelady : Murph – had a VERY LONG phone call I needed to take. Sorry to miss so much of the discussion!

funksands : I like O’Malley. I need to know much more, but I like what I see.

choicelady : Everyone – I have been invited back into the single payer discussion with the very people who, I thought, wanted to see only my backside. It’s the CNA and other unions. Suddenly they are saying what I said about needing to grow up and do the work organizing and educating. They are DSoc folks largely, and I will be VERY interested in whether they have moved on from trashing Obama to seeing they need to move forward, not set fire to ACA and the world. It will be a revelation which i will dutifully report to y’all.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- how do we address the issues you raise re. Hillary? To be truthful I wish that the talk was so much focused on her (and then to Biden who really will be too old) and then where O’Malley…

AdLib : Hey CL! Welcome back! Yes, the Hillary I saw in 2008 was pretty distasteful. The one I’ve seen since as SoS has been impressive. Has she changed? I don’t know.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL Yuppers

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- you are back….good to see you.

choicelady : Murph – one thing you could always trust with Bush.However bad things were, he would make them worse.

MurphTheSurf3 : funk- well, what passes for progressivsm these days…I agre

AdLib : Murph – That is the big question. Is Hillary just biding her time to pull the nation back to the corporatist Presidency of Bill’s or has her experience since then changed her views? Don’t forget how Bill publicly chided Obama for speaking out against corporate greed and Chelsea worked for a hedge fund and is married to a hedge fund manager. How does that bode for a Hillary presidency? Would she sign bills unfavorable to the rest of her family?

funksands : Hi CLady!

choicelady : Hi all – hi funk – sorry to drop off. See we’re discussing Clintons. Loved Bill – until now. Loved Hillary – until 2008. Her corporate and Dominionist ties are too worrisome. I agree AdLib – Bill’s desire to be liked allowed him to be sucked into agreeing with policies that have done HUGE damage to America.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- your assessment is one with which I agree- the real pain that his legislative agenda would reap was delayed by a robust 90’s balloon economy which was deflating just as he left office. Bush did get a raw deal with that, but he made it so much worse

funksands : Murph, real progressivism? No way. Acceptable Democratic candidate? Maybe. I can’t think of any progressive in a position of power in the Democratic party. Pelosi is the closest and even she is a stretch.

MurphTheSurf3 : funk- I wonder if you hav hit on it…have the two become voices for real progressivism as a result of their own pilgrimages.

AdLib : I like Clinton as an Ex-Pres but I didn’t like him as Pres. He supported legislating prejudice against gays, he destroyed protections against Wall Street destroying our economy, he devastated manufacturing and unions and the blue collar middle class. Personal likeability aside, he really damaged this nation in the long term.

funksands : I don’t know about Hillary Murph, 4 years ago I didn’t vote for her because of her husband’s legacy. She seems different now, but that may be my imagination. Hell even Bill seems different now.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- where is Hillary in this? Is she what we need for her to be?

AdLib : Murph – I wonder about Clinton…did he not agree with all of this conservative garbage? I think he did and I also think he was thinking more about his legacy as a President who got a lot of things done rather than doing what helped most Americans. How did any of those big issues I mentioned help Americans as opposed to hurting them? So, I don’t see those as decisions he needed to make on our behalf, he made them on his behalf.

funksands : Ad, exactly. That’s why he re-released it again before the March 27th budget deadline.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….and in your analysis of Clinton you nail down why I am not a huge fan of the Clinton legislative agenda- I think he did what he had to do in the long run but that was in no small part due to his lack of leverage

AdLib : Well, didn’t the Ryan budget begin with killing the ACA, Wall Street regs and privatizing Medicare?

funksands : Murph, that would make it an excellent opening negotiation stance then wouldn’t it?

AdLib : Funk – That is a better way to do it than means testing, just get more contributions but still pay out.

MurphTheSurf3 : funk- imagine how much money will be poured into GOP coffers to get your 99 percent solution dead on arrival.

AdLib : Funk, so true, Clinton and his Triangulation accomplished a lot with a Repub Congress…a lot of the Repub agenda that is. Killing Glass-Steagall, NAFTA, DOMA, DADT…he got a lot done because he went along with the Repubs.

funksands : Ad, that’s not too tough to overcome. Your SS taxes are withheld from your check prior to receiving your money. Their tax is simply withheld at a 99% rate once they have hit their maximum benefit.

funksands : SS is the most successful anti-poverty program in the history of the world. That is why the GOP wants to “fix” it. Period. Stop.

MurphTheSurf3 : funk…good addition to the conversation…a minimum pay out…

AdLib : Just projecting into the future, if there was means testing and those who made above $1 million would not receive SS, they would no doubt use the politicians they pay for to give them some private SS tax loophole, money flows out of SS and the wealthy then gain a new avenue for sheltering money from taxes. And as you say, SS then becomes the “47% solution”, so much easier to attack as handouts by Repubs…who will be in power again one day in the future.

funksands : Ad, I think Clinton fell into this trap. Do something for the sake of doing something. And he left us with garbage.

funksands : Murph, that might only work if there was minimum benefit that every American qualified for regardless of situation. Even then, not sure.

MurphTheSurf3 : funk Got it….is it possible to return to FDR’s vision of Social Security INSURANCE…like fire insurance- you get it if your house burns down…smaller premiums because fewer qualify? Just asking.

funksands : Both sides do not have to share pain to fix a program that is not broken.

AdLib : Funk – Making an easy deal should never be the priority over making a tougher and better deal. There’s a reason why something is “too easy”, one side is giving up way too much and the other side is happy to grab it. As for means testing, I used to be open to it but the more one considers that the wealthier people would then end up bailing out of SS because they’re not going to get benefits from it, as you say, it all falls apart.

funksands : Murph, if you turn SS into a welfare program it will lose its most valuable political shield.

MurphTheSurf3 : funk…why the opposition to means testing for SS

funksands : Tax Romney on his extra benefits at 99%. Pay him what he is owed, and tax him at 99% on any benefit above the maximum benefit

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- agree but the politics will only work IF both sides have to share some pain. Make the CPI reduction less than is currently being considered and make the the payroll cap more acceptable as well.

funksands : The day SS gets means-tested is the day it signs its own death sentence.

funksands : 1. Life the cap 2. Raise the Tax 3. No means testing

AdLib : The biggest fraud though is saying that SS needs to be reformed because of the deficit.

funksands : Ad EXACTLY. I think there is some very natural human emotions at play here that in another setting and time probably would not occur. There are no GOOD solutions to HELP SS being discussed, so the remaining available discussion point ends up being the default offer? No thanks.

AdLib : Murph – I don’t know if you even need chained CPI if you lift the payroll cap. No need to take more from those who have the least when the wealthy can easily pay their fair share and thus sustain SS.

AdLib : Funk, that would be great! Really looking forward to that post!

MurphTheSurf3 : funk that would be first class, thanks

AdLib : Chained CPI is the easiest way out for Dems and the easiest to get Repubs to agree to…which isn’t a good reason to do it by itself.

funksands : Murph, I will take that challenge. I had been planning on a piece anyway. I think it is a very interesting political story.

MurphTheSurf3 : I say do chained CPI AND raise the payroll cap…everyone gets skin in the game

funksands : Ad, agreed. What’s bothering me about chained CPI is that it simply seems to be acting as the path of least resistance. Dems seem kind of squirrely to do SOMETHING and it feels like chained CPI is the least offensive sop they can hand the GOP to fulfill their cuts oath.

MurphTheSurf3 : Chained CPI- I have read such conflicting analyses of this that a good Planet article would be a value.

AdLib : Funk – Don’t blame you for being annoyed because you’re taking the family to DC. Hope you’re getting passes from your senators or Rep to go to the Capitol!

AdLib : Funk – Haven’t had a lengthy discussion about chained CPI, would be good to do a post on it to familiarize people with what Obama seems available to agree to. If only we raised the cap on contributions, that wouldn’t be necessary even to discuss.

MurphTheSurf3 : well…we are down to three…..anythi ng else pressing….I am willing to hang in a bit longer if there is

funksands : Family is headed to DC this fall. I’m a little pissed about the WH tours frankly (as shallow as that is)

AdLib : Murph – I think that’s how Dems may take back some seats in the South, the Repubs just go too extreme. Just as happened with Akin and McCaskill.

funksands : Politico. Duh. Thanks Murph

AdLib : Funk – It’s the specifics like that which will begin piling up on the Repubs. Real people are getting hurt and all they can talk about are WH tours?

MurphTheSurf3 : Funk- CPAC on line «link»

funksands : Ad, as long as they keep losing…..takin g power seems to marginalize the splinter groups.

AdLib : Murph – Yep, I like that the MSM meme is that the Repubs are in a civil war or a house divided. It is surprisingly accurate (for the MSM) and sets the stage for a truly hostile battle down the line. It’s coming…

funksands : Has anyone here been chatting about the “Chained CPI” discussion?

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- thanks for the V prop

AdLib : Night Sally! See you over the weekend!

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- he is an old guy and the local GOP machinery is broken. In local elections we are now seeing candidates for the Libertarian, Tea Party, America First and GOP on the right side of the ballots. A county supervisor position went to a Dem in November because of this- she was a local business woman.

AdLib : Sally, it just illustrates how the RW are able to create their own bubble and reality for their minions via Fox, Rush, etc., that has no resemblance to our actual reality. We discussed here one night why people are satisfied being pawns, the old slave/master mentality. It is a hard one to accept.

funksands : Is there a live feed of CPAC online or on the telly?

AdLib : Murph – I’m with Funk enjoyed the “V” reference!

AdLib : Murph – A principled man wouldn’t be in that position. You support what helps your constituency, not what satisfies the extremists because your priority is your own re-election. Whoever this pol is, he’s going to have to make that decision.

MurphTheSurf3 : Night Sally.

SallyT : There you go, Murph has the numbers.

funksands : Night Sally, good seeing you however briefly.

funksands : King Co. here has stopped issuing Section 8 housing vouchers. Tuition assistance for veterans has been suspended. Pay full freight, drop out or go back into active service the only choices. hanford also fuloughing a couple hundred people right after they had a leak

MurphTheSurf3 : Sally- the number was 209 to 7 in the last two weeks

SallyT : Okay, I am going to leave this to you guys and say good night.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….that is what I think is going on….we talk about the GOP as a house divided so are the media (and at times the Dems)….this is a period when the paradigms are in high shift.

AdLib : Funk – It is tougher now to hold the Senate with more Dem senators retiring but the mood of the country is markedly against the Repubs.

SallyT : AdLib, someone said that FOX has had 200 shows on the White House Tours being canceled and nothing on Preschools cutting back.

funksands : I am very tuned into lame.

MurphTheSurf3 : Funk…thanks for being so tuned in to my rather lame reference.

AdLib : Murph – At the same time, the MSM had no problem making a big deal about Obama mixing Star Trek and Star Wars lingo. The MSM is about distraction from the salient facts that would energize the people against corporations and those working against the American people…because they’re one of them. That doesn’t mean they don’t have conscientious people working for them who genuinely do try to serve the people’s interest.

MurphTheSurf3 : Here is a side note….the sequester is cutting into a local program here involving farm funding….it is getting nasty pretty quick as we are on the brink of planting season here. Our local Congressman, who is a decent man, an old time GOPer, but scared to death of the TP, is trying to duck and cover but he keeps getting pinned down by calls from the local farming organizations that are mainstays in his campaigns. A rock and a hard place.

SallyT : Wow, Murph, I am watching out of the corner of my eye and Rummy and Chainman really took control of Ford! I will have to watch this again!

funksands : BTW Murph, props for the “V” reference.

funksands : Ad, maybe but the hard core conservatives always show up. Low turnout means GOP keeps the House and re-takes the Senate. We have to hold AK, AR, WV, LA, MT, SD, NC.

AdLib : Funk – I think you’re right but there is a flaw in their plan. If people blame the Repubs primarily for their cynicism about government, the 2010 Repub sweep could be reversed by 2016 and then they will have self-destructed.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- I am puzzled. The media coverage of both stories was muted- even MSNBC did not tout their own show the way I thought they would. And Time- the med lobbies are very powerful, med advertising is very powerful….ever y time I get someone to look at either of these great pieces of work they gasp…..but the media remains quiet.

AdLib : Funk, I like that, Shakesfeld! Will Kramer still be Kramer?

funksands : I think the GOP is accomplishing 1 of its 2 missions very well: Making Americans so cynical of their govt. that when its stolen from them they don’t even notice.

MurphTheSurf3 : Funk- Shakesfeld….go od.

AdLib : Murph – I just think the Repubs have so overwhelmed the public with crises and outrages that people more or less aren’t as floored by the next outrage or the exposure of a past one. What do you think?

funksands : Murph, I think you have the makings of a hit sitcom there. “ShakesFeld”.

AdLib : Hey Funk! Just chillin’…

AdLib : Murph – It does seem quite prominent that the GOP Elite and the Baggers are firing shots across each others’ bow…but I’m waiting for the real war to break out. I wonder if the 2014 elections will cause that or if it will take the next GOP primary? Either way, I’m looking forward to things coming to a fast boil.

MurphTheSurf3 : Funk…we few we happy, grumbling, snarky, insightful, sharp, few.

SallyT : I watched the Inside Story the other night and that was an eye opener. Makes you mad and wanting to throw rocks!

funksands : Evening. You all fading or holding strong?

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad LIb- Hubris wraps the whole thing up in a nice Shit Sandwich. The show has not gotten nearly enough exposure. Wonder why? I have the same reaction to the lack of energy around the time March 4 issue. Is the fix in?

AdLib : Sally, just remember, they will always be seen as evil and terrible by history and each day have to live with that and a President Obama undoing their evil. They failed, they lost their control, they are unhappy, hateful people who will live out their lives devoured by their hatred.

SallyT : Hubris is very good, AdLib. You know the outcome but it is interesting seeing how we got there and why.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….I was at a briefing on the Democratic effort in 2014- the disarray you refer to in the GOP is very clear. All they have is what they have had….no new tactics or strategy because they are now a very fragile coalition that is in danger of flying apart.

AdLib : I also need to watch “Hubris” from MSNBC, it’s gotten very strong reviews.

SallyT : I think you are right, Murph. I can’t stand to look or hear him. And, all the players are there! Rummy has just showed up!

AdLib : Murph – If anyone is a cold blooded reptile, it is indeed Cheney.

MurphTheSurf3 : Sally- I suspect you will find the Showtime effort engaging in a nauseating kind of way.

AdLib : Sally, you are a friend indeed! Though I do want to see it, the filmmaker lets Cheney just expound about all his evil and expose more than he realizes, from what I hear.

MurphTheSurf3 : Sally and Ad Lib…saw the Cheney show….it is worth seeing- the interviewer is skilled at getting Cheney to be Cheney….the reptile beneath the skin shows…like watching an episode of V

AdLib : Murph – I always believe in the “thou protest too much” theory so when I heard Mitt Romney poo-pooing the media for saying that in light of the 2008 and 2012 elections, conservatism and the GOP are growing less popular, I think it was an acknowledgement that it is in fact the case and they don’t know what the hell to do about it.

SallyT : Okay, for you AdLib, I will watch it. I wasn’t going to but I will for you. Is that not a friend or what?

SallyT : Well, so far he has been kicked out of Yale and arrested for drunk driving twice. Yes, fine young man.

AdLib : Sally, can you post a comment recapping the highlights? Wish I could see it but don’t have Showtime.

AdLib : Murph – One can only hope that this supports the greater GOP civil war many have predicted. If Rand runs in 2016 which was Ron’s plan, to carry on for him, the primaries could be just as extremist if not more and even more divisive. And what if the Baggers were to win and nominate an unelectable candidate like Rand Paul? Against Hillary Clinton? It would be like having a prize fight against a toddler.

MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib I have been paying close attention to all the CPAC numbers and I think they are way down. They issued 2000 press credentials- about 600 at the last minute…filling out the rooms?

SallyT : On Showtime right now is World According to Dick Cheney.

AdLib : Dick Morris, Donald Trump, Sarah Palin, Mitt Romney…who says the Repubs are just a bunch of hasbeens?

MurphTheSurf3 : It is interesting observing how Rand Paul got a greater rise from the group that any of the heavy hitters from the GOP Proper….the libertarian group is isolationist and that is definitely contrary to the neocon wing….CPAC is showing up the shatter points in the Grand Old Party

AdLib : Murph – The pundits say that attendance for early morning speakers is lower (Repubs are that lazy…or hungover) so it is interesting that Trump was scheduled at that time.

SallyT : Yes, they are certainly bringing in the clowns.

AdLib : CPAC is indeed like a circus sideshow. Next up, The Headless Lady!

MurphTheSurf3 : Dick Morris had more of an audience than Trump-+–

SallyT : Well, it is the weekend, maybe more will show but why, I don’t know!

MurphTheSurf3 : Palin is on tomorrow

SallyT : Has Palin spoke yet?

AdLib : Very funny about Trump! Hope NBC and Macy’s saw that and finally figure out that he’s no draw.

AdLib : The wealthy can afford to walk away from an upside-down house, they were the biggest abusers of that. They have the money to just turn around and buy another house.

SallyT : Did you see that there was hardly anyone there today when Trump spoke?

SallyT : True and they can walk away from them, as they did in many areas, and not be hurt. Look at Trump!

AdLib : They’re investments, Sally and the profits are capital gains so they don’t even pay a decent amount of tax on the money they get from it.

SallyT : It’s all a write off for them.

AdLib : So true, Sally. I mentioned here last week, Priebus spoke out taking credit for Repubs for the record heights of the stock market. This is the same weasel who blamed Obama for high unemployment and a declining stock market previously. Of course, everything good is thanks to Repubs, everything bad is because of Dems and Obama.

AdLib : Sally – Yep, I’m sure they’re happy to flip homes (and increase prices in the process) or lease out to those who can’t afford homes. The end result they would be most happy about is owning the real estate of the nation and turning Americans into modern day sharecroppers.

SallyT : Right, AdLib, I wonder about that too. It always goes way up before it hits bottom. The President won’t get credit for it going up but he sure will get the blame if it collapses.

SallyT : You are probably right. I just wonder if they keep buying up and no one can afford to live there, well, you still have to keep up the repairs, utilities, and taxes. Of course, that doesn’t matter if you have lots of money. However, lots of those mansions are up for sales now. But, there probably are buyers for them, too.

AdLib : What I find a bit spooky is how the stock market keeps going up despite the upcoming economic hit we’re going to take as the sequester takes hold. Many top people including Warren Buffet are pulling back from the market.

AdLib : Sally, I don’t know, their buying up homes props up prices and the market is still lower than it will be.

SallyT : Good night, Sue. I will see you around somewhere this weekend. If not, have a great one.

SallyT : Well, I am sure the banks are taking care of them rich guys. After all the banks didn’t lose anything in the housing collapse.

AdLib : Night Sue!

MurphTheSurf3 : Take care Sue.

SueInCa : Well I better go. I have to finish two bracelets that I got distracted from when I signed on here. Night all.

SueInCa : Sally remember corp can still file BK even though it is harder for a person to file personal BK just like tort law is almost gone too. It has all been set up for the rich and corp

SallyT : AdLib, I wonder if that isn’t going to fall apart down the line like all that house flipping.

SueInCa : I like the city better than Berkeley. BErkeley is a zoo

SueInCa : Adlib I knew that was gonna happen back in 08 when we saw vultures buying up blocks of homes. Slumlords and I believe it was designed this way. If we knew half of what goes on, we would be in the streets, well I think we would be…..

SallyT : Not so much that but she has to be close to school and she has two jobs. She doesn’t have a car down there.

AdLib : The big thing now is hedge funds buying up private homes to pump up prices and become landlords to the same people who would otherwise have been able to buy that house.

SueInCa : But living in the city can be so exciting Sally.

SueInCa : Sally there is a townhome near us for rent in Benicia(little ole town) for 1495 a month

SallyT : My granddaughter is going to school in SF and she has a small studio apartment and it is $1000 a month.

SueInCa : See Sally how different things can be? When we left Reno and moved back here, our car insurance went way down.

SueInCa : That sounds about right now Adlib. They are starting to move up again but not as fast as the 2000’s. Hey people who were buying normal homes in LA were paying close to a million during the boom. Same here and sometimes way over

SallyT : I know that when I moved out here the price of car insurance shocked me. It was like triple. I was told that Oregon was influenced by Calif and that there were more cars here. I guess none of them had ever drove in Kansas City!

AdLib : Sue, that is reasonable indeed. According to the article, the Average Home Price in SF is $809,667

SueInCa : The taxes are what get us in the other areas of CA. Depending on your county it is as high a 8.75% for sales tax. I live in Solano so ours is lower.

SueInCa : Thanks Adlib I am going to read it.

AdLib : Whoops, here’s the link: «link»

SueInCa : Wow I know SF has the most billionaires in the country so this all does not surprise me. But if you live in other cities it can be very reasonable now. We bought a 1500 sq ft townhome in Benicia for 180 thousand. The condo we sold at the waterfront sold for 390 thousand in 2002.

SallyT : Wine is cheap here, too, AdLib. Oregon and Washington have lots of grapes.

AdLib : Sue – Found this in Kiplinger’s report on the most expensive cities: “Housing prices, at nearly three times the national average, are the main culprit for the high cost of living. Only housing in New York City (specifically the boroughs of Manhattan and Brooklyn) runs more than in San Francisco. One of the few things that is cheap in this California city is wine, which sells for 15% below the national average. Napa is just an hour’s drive north. San Franciscans can afford to stock up by the case. The city’s median household income surpasses the U.S. median by almost $20,000 a year.” «link» nger.com/slidesh ow/real-estate/T 006-S001-most-ex pensive-u-s-citi es-to-live-in/in dex.html#yZzUTpW BLyeU702h.99

SallyT : I think you might be surprised at the cost of heating oil there, too.

SallyT : I don’t think she meant it for real, AdLib. The point she was making is that they don’t care unless it hits them personally.

SueInCa : Hey Adlib according to the weeper of the house some of his family is really really poor lol. Remember he swept the floor of a bar. No wonder he has the vodka challenge now

SueInCa : I am referring to the heating oil areas. Maryland, MA, NH, VT, ME, Wi MI anywhere where people have to pay for oil or propane.

AdLib : Sally, right! Then the problem there is that most Repub Congresspeople are wealthy and so are their relatives so it is harder to find Repubs who might have poor relatives to whom they are sympathetic. Keep in mind, these types often look upon the less fortunate as lazy, even family.

SallyT : Car insurance is much lower, too.

SueInCa : My highest bill here in our new home was 142 the month of Christmas

SallyT : Natural gas in both places.

SueInCa : But did you heat with oil? And that was awhile ago, right? Not saying you are old Watson

SallyT : I never paid a $200 heating bill in Missouri but I do here.

SueInCa : So it is really inaccurate to claim all of CA or NY is over priced.

SallyT : No, AdLib, she meant the Congressmen, not the voters. If their families were affected, they might have a change of attitude like portman. So, I say we hold up their salaries.

AdLib : Sue – NYC is #1 and SF is #2 in most expensive cities in the US to live in.

SueInCa : Right Sally but there are also trade-offs like paying for oil to heat homes etc. We have mild weather out here.

SueInCa : night Glenn have a great weekend

MurphTheSurf3 : Take care Gllenn

SallyT : I don’t know about Calif but Oregon’s cost are high because of Calif influence. It is cheaper in the mid west on many things.

glenn : Okay, folks, time for me to say goodnight also. As always, enjoyed my time here at the Planet. Looking forward to the weekend with music and funnies. Have a great weekend, everyone.

AdLib : Sally, the problem with that is that the majority of Repubs are lower middle class or in poverty yet their devotion to the GOP, like a religion, makes them so lemming-like in following the GOP’s class warfare.

glenn : Sally–the republican primaries of 2012.

SueInCa : Adlib do you think it is more expensive in CA? I found when we lived in NV that there were trade offs, some stuff was higher there and some stuff was the same

glenn : Sally–it was Rob Portman. We were discussing him earlier and his absolute hypocrisy during the republican primaries when he was so anti-gay. He’s known his son was gay since 2011, according to the stories out today.

SueInCa : Actually no Glenn it is not but the idea is they are trying. Adlib it is the idea that they are trying.

AdLib : Sue – Who could live in SF at $7.25/hr if they weren’t living with their parents…and even then…

SueInCa : Adlib that is what more and more of corp amerika is doing

glenn : Sue–is that enough to support families in CA? Not trying to be snarky, I just know it’s expensive out there. At least, it’s a start.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…bullseye!

SallyT : Rachel Maddow tonight said that since that one Congressman came out for gay marriage after his son came out, that these things have to hit close to home for Repugs to go for it. So, she said we need to get poor people into those Repug families so they will be for helping the poor.

SueInCa : I know I thought the quote was perfect. It was Gore Vidal who said it

AdLib : Murph, that’s the corporate mentality. Build up a desperate workforce and view employees as expendable and replaceable. Start them at a low salary and keep them down, use up years of their lives if possible then when they’re not able to continue at that low wage, get rid of them and hire someone who will. Rinse and repeat.

SueInCa : San Jose CA just raised their min wage to 10 dollars an hour and SF is 10.55

glenn : Sue–and there are many scoundrels hiding behind their so-called patriotism in the republican/tpart y.

SueInCa : Glenn someone said Patriotism is the last resort for a scoundrel

glenn : Sally–well of course they did. It’s not “patriotic” to only hold one job. Get two or three! If one job is “good”, then two or three must be better, right?

SallyT : Another reason some of those people have to work 3 jobs is because they make just enough to disqualify them for food stamps.

AdLib : Hey Sally! Employees at Walmart need health insurance, a supplemental job and a way out of the cycle of poverty.

SallyT : Yes, Glenn, and the Repugs voted down an increase to the medium wage today.

MurphTheSurf3 : Sally T- have you seen the comparative study that shows how quickly Costco employees move up the salary ladder while Wal Mart employees lag behind by years…..why? WalMart is cheap and wants them to move on.

glenn : Hi Sally–holy cow–what a novel concept. Work at a job and make enough money to feed your family. Just today at CPAC, romney talked about all those “patriotic Americans” who work 2 or 3 jobs to feed their families. Now that’s patriotism!

SallyT : Employees at Walmart need food stamps.

SueInCa : brb

SueInCa : true that Sally.

SallyT : That’s because people that get through working at Costco can still afford to buy food to feed their family.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- my experience as well.

SueInCa : We were also close to UC Berkely and I worked for a professor and his wife. So we were exposed to radical thinking quite young

MurphTheSurf3 : SUe- oh, the Costco old timer. Got it. Sue, I am the son of a navy officer and in my senior year joined the anti-war movement. Not happy days.

glenn : Ad–I know, and recently, he petitioned the court to reduce his child support (or maybe even stop it) because he “lost his job through no fault of his own.” You know the job he lost because no one would vote for him. Once again, repubs stepping up to the plate to take “personal responsibility” , right?

AdLib : Murph – Like that old timer’s line. The folks I see there are hardly the disgruntled and/or lost types you find at Walmart.

SueInCa : Hey Sally, where are you?

SueInCa : Murph I had just come off a senior year where I was called into the principles office for number 1 the boyfriend I had and a term paper I wrote in my junior year against the Vietnam war. What you said about Costco emp

MurphTheSurf3 : Sue- I think i lost a comment somewhere- what was funny?

SueInCa : Murph that is funny.

MurphTheSurf3 : Sue- I worked for McGovern as well. Admired him very much.

AdLib : glenn – Talking about role models, how about Repub Bagger Joe Walsh as symbol of the Repubs. Won’t pay child support and asks the court to cut it while howling about how all the poor and minorities are trying to escape their duty to society. Who is more of a taker than that scum?

SallyT : Driving Hoover nuts was a short putt.

SueInCa : On his campaign not directly for him lol

SueInCa : Murph we had a very active political family in the sense our parents taught us early about voting, candidates so I was active early. I worked for McGovern

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- regarding Costco- at the one I use there is a real old timer. He has a great line. People who work here sound like the people who worked at Walmart when Sam was in charge.

choicelady : Good night kes!

SueInCa : Robert was my favorite. I loved how he drove ole Hoover nuts

MurphTheSurf3 : Sue- I am not a great admirer of the Kennedys. I came to admire Teddy.

glenn : Murph–I’ve always been fiscally conservative and socially liberal. I believe Eisenhower would be absolutely appalled by the republican party today.

SueInCa : But not in the June LA this was in April or March

SueInCa : Murph not me I am a Kennedy Democrat since at least 9th grade when I saw Edward Kennedy in front of the courthouse in Martinez CA where I grew up. Teddy was in LA.

MurphTheSurf3 : Night kes…

glenn : Good night kes. Great chatting with you tonight, as always. Sleep well.

SueInCa : Have a good weekend BFF sleep well

kesmarn : Women are always badgering poor men for cash for unnecessary bread and shoes, glenn. It’s one of the reasons God made us the stronger sex, I guess! And now — I know I’m bowing out early tonight, kids. But I was up and at ’em much earlier than usual today and now that it’s 11 here, I’m starting to fade! Wish you all a wonderful weekend!

MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn I refer to my self as a Eisenhower Republican who found a new home in the Clinton-Obama Democratic Party because it looked so familiar.

glenn : Sue–You’re right–it has been going on for a long time.

SueInCa : Adlib Costco stands alone and that is the problem. Other corp are just not that into what Costco does. People keep lining WallyMarts pockets why should they change?

SueInCa : If you decide to let the bills go, hide your assets first lol

glenn : Kes–well, of course, corporations come before children. Plus, most of the people who owe child support are men, and we mustn’t let greedy women take the hard-earned money of men. Much better for the corporations to get that money!

AdLib : Hasn’t Costco turned out to be such a great role model for corporations? Pro-union, paying a living wage, health insurance and a form of profit sharing…one of the rare times that I applaud a big corp making big profits but this quarter they had huge revenues and far outpace Walmart in a per-store, per-employee salary way.

SueInCa : Glenn I left banking in 1998 that is how long ago things started changing

SueInCa : Actually that is not HQ’d in but just a branch.

glenn : Murph–I know I keep showing my age. Do you think I am a “closet conservative (gasp) by wanting to go back to the “good ole days” when corporations weren’t people and they felt a responsibility to their shareholders/cus tomers?

SueInCa : When the banks all HQ’d in Delaware, usury laws went out the window because Delaware had no ceiling and you can manage that part of the business by the state you are hq’d in(it used to be that way) but I think once they did that then they were able to get rid of the usury laws because so many banks were in delaware

kesmarn : I’ve heard that when it comes to recovering owed money — thanks to GOP legislation — credit cards will get a person’s assets even before child support obligations. How very…Republica n.

MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn- Usury? Why what a quaint concept….nope long gone.

glenn : Sue–thanks for the info. on usury laws.

SueInCa : Murph my uncle worked for Sam Walton and he was paid very well. Sam was a different man.

kesmarn : Wow…thanks, AdLib! I’d heard something about this, but thought it referred only to current borrowers. She’s been out of college about 4 years. This is great!

choicelady : BRB!

MurphTheSurf3 : Sue- saw your mention of Walmart. The Walton heirs have so corrupted Sam’s vision for big box stories in unserved rural America that my coop works very hard to drive traffic away from them and towards more local purchases- not at all easy. If I want a big box story, I go to Costco.

SueInCa : Their are no ceilings in any state anymore CL. Usury laws went out the window

choicelady : AdLib – I may have to break with them. I made my feelings known, and they just basically sneered at me and sent me books about preventing indebtedness.

AdLib : Kes, here are some details: “Speaking to a crowd of college students in Denver, Colorado, the president outlined a new “Pay As You Earn” plan. The proposal would expedite the timeline for an already-approved loan repayment plan that would lower monthly federal student loan payments for Americans whose burden of debt is disproportionate to their earning abilities. According to the original plan, which Congress approved in 2010, borrowers would be able to reduce their monthly payments from 15 to ten percent of their discretionary income as of 2014. Additionally, that plan dictated that the balance of borrowers’ debt would be forgiven after 20 years of payments rather than in 25 years.” «link»

glenn : Murph–Sue–AdLi b–a long, long time ago, back when I was in high school, I took a business law course, and there was a discussion/lesso n on usury laws. Do we still have such things? They seem to have gone out the window with credit cards being able to charge 18.5% interest and the like. How did we get to that point?

SueInCa : I am surprised too CL. The people I met sure would not seem like that? Are these people outside your organization?

kesmarn : glenn, you betcha! These kids need to take personal responsibility for borrowing from their parents and not be deadbeats.

AdLib : CL – You sure you want to be working with those people? Hammering the poor and leaving the payday lenders alone seems so upside-down.

kesmarn : Seriously, AdLib? Even a loan that was taken out under the Bush thievery program? That is great news! I’ll advise her to look into it.

SueInCa : Remember the mayor from San Antonio? Why didn’t I think of that?

choicelady : AdLib – I am pretty upset with my colleagues for not understanding what they’re doing. They want a ‘win’ no matter what. They’ll get it too – regulating the poor is a bipartisan issue!!! Regulating payday lenders? Not so much.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL one of my late mid life realizations is that women are the ones who need to be in charge- more and more I see them as vibrant agents of change because of their courage and integrity. No one works harder than a woman with a purpose in my experience.

glenn : Kes–c’mon that’s easy. Either borrow money from your parents or sell some of your stock. That’s how the “struggling” romneys did it. You can, too!

kesmarn : Oh, BFF, so sorry to hear about your daughter. They need to change this situation.

choicelady : AdLib – I did not know that. I am not shocked.

AdLib : Kes – The law Obama signed on student loans will allow your friend’s daughter to have the loan erased after a period of time, if she makes payments along the way I believe.

SueInCa : Adlib if WallyMart the Chinese Emporium can screw someone they will

choicelady : Sue – I don’t have a problem with that. It provides stability if they require a deposit since at Golden1 all you have to put in is like $5. There is a lot to be said for having a secure link to a member owned business that can offer a lot of information and guidance.

kesmarn : I would defy any RWer to come up with a budget for a family of 3 to “manage their money” on $7.25/hr.

SueInCa : Kes my daughter is having that problem and also having a tough time getting a job in the field (medical billing). She is working but not what she studied for. She has a job because she has a degree, the medical training did not help

AdLib : CL – That is an outrageous story, about the focus turning to how stupid poor people are in using the payday loans instead of how the wealthy are preying on the poor. You know of course that since payday lending is one of the most unprincipled businesses, taking advantage of the poor, that Walmart is in that business now.

choicelady : Murph – she sounds GREAT! Would love to meet her someday! Those are the REAL heroes of America, not the stupid sports figures. She and her husband are game changers. SO ARE YOU.

SueInCa : Right but see they tie it to membership CL

choicelady : Sue – thanks! That’s helpful. But I do know a couple of credit unions that set up emergency lending coupled with establishing accounts. Some – not sure if it’s in CA – put a little of the repayment into a savings account for the borrower. We just have to find out which ONES do this.

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- Mama is a country woman who went to law school part time for seven years…she lives on a small farm with her farming husband and fights for the rural poor- She is one of my heroes.

kesmarn : I feel so sorry for young workers who have student loan debt. A friend’s daughter borrowed $14,000 that over time has ballooned to $48,000. (She was out of work for a while, then got taken by a refi scam outfit.) I hear that even bankruptcy won’t clear that debt. She will never be able to buy a house at this rate.

SueInCa : That is why I asked about their credit score. The banks have to work with them but they don;t have to protect their credit you know?

choicelady : Murph – Yea Mama!

SueInCa : CL you are going to find that out in community banks more so than credit unions. You may find some but credit unions typically have to answer to their members

MurphTheSurf3 : Sue- AH….yes, we do work with their creditors (in some cases arm twisting since our coop is known and has both buying and moral power)…the woman who runs this is a tough attorney and you do not mess with Mama!

glenn : AdLib–is george will old enough for social security? He certainly seems to be!

choicelady : AdLib – Oh that’s right, but he did NOT want it until he became a Wealthy Old White Guy. WOWG.

SueInCa : Right Kes….Well Murph do you make arrangements with their creditors or do you just help them set up a plan separate from your debt counseling?

glenn : Kes–I know how republicans struggle with math. Just look at ryan’s recycled budget.

AdLib : CL – You left out that George Will also wants government support for wealthy old white guys…and he happens to be…

choicelady : Murph – a LOT of coops do, and credit unions have alternatives, too. We NEED to come up with a list, so one of the younger staffers whose family went through hard times is joining (quietly) with me to find out which credit unions and community banks do alternative lending for poor people.

MurphTheSurf3 : Sue- I don’t know how to answer your question. Can you give me a little more context. I am not directly involved in this so I need a few more hints.

kesmarn : Republicans struggle with arithmetic, let alone math, glenn. I loved Clinton’s speech: “It’s just arithmetic!” You could almost hear the “stupid!” that was unspoken.

SueInCa : Murph how does the debt counseling affect their credit rating?

choicelady : Murph – sorry about being river bound instead of having the wide Sargasso Sea to enjoy! Someday?

MurphTheSurf3 : CL- the coop I belong to does payday loans for our members and our members families. We also do debt counseling. One of the son’s of one of our members just recently paid off all he owed, after a two year work through, and he has joined the coop as a recovering debtaholic.

SueInCa : Oh don’t get me started on payday loans. We had a credit card like that when I worked at the bank. If you got behind, you were never going to pay it off. I felt so sorry for those folks this was back when there was absolutely no CH education

glenn : Kes–I agree. Perhaps after your son receives his degree, he can teach math to republicans. Oh, wait, I take that back! He should do something enjoyable after all of his hard work obtaining his degree!

kesmarn : Indeed not. Mere coincidence.

choicelady : glenn – Bingo – you got the gold ring. Or something.

choicelady : kes – oh we KNOW you’d NEVER suggest anything that benefited you and yours…NEVER.

choicelady : glenn – the GOP are not alone. I work with a REALLY good group against payday lending, but we’ve not passed anything for years. So now we have a bill curtailing the number of payday loans. I said we needed to figure out alternative resources for people first – and I got trounced on the call. But it’s now NOT regulating the INDUSTRY it’s regulating the poor. And that’s FINE with them – they all say poor people NEED to learn to manage money better, get better jobs, etc. WTF???? I was outraged.

SueInCa : It is all about their needs CL we all know that. I just have a real hard time being civil at all. Murph the dreaming looking out on the ocean is me to a T

kesmarn : Well, in that case I think there ought to be $500,000/yr stipends for people working on mathematics doctorates. The fact that my son is has nothing to do with that.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL- especially when the rivers are starved for water…but even in the best times the best I can do is a leisurely float trip.

glenn : CL–I know, I know, George Will has a child with Down’s Syndrome! Do I win the prize?

MurphTheSurf3 : Sue-what is coastal- a way of thinking and being where the horizons are at a distance that encourages dreaming and the shore reminds us of our limits. How is that?

choicelady : kes – seriously. He has a son with Down’s. And that is a huge issue with him. The ONLY issue with him. What a freaking hypocrite!

SueInCa : Oh what a bad pick they made then. They never really did get a bounce off Ryan and then his own state voted against him. I snorkel Murph but not scuba

choicelady : Murph – yeah, my family was from MO and Omaha. The rivers just do NOT lend themselves, do they?

glenn : CL–Exactly. On all issues, these hypocrites only react when it affects them personally. Their only principle(s) are I’ve got mine, usually through inheritance or working a “government job” for 20 years, and the rest of you can take “personal responsibility” .

kesmarn : Seriously? On the George Will thing, c’lady? Good grief!

MurphTheSurf3 : Sue…..I am SO jealous of CL….My nickname is a reference to my love of snorkeling and scuba diving and I live in Missouri.

AdLib : Sue – I think the main reason Portman wasn’t picked by Romney is that he comes off as a bland, older white guy and no doubt, the polls they did testing his viability came back as a big negative. Like McCain, Romney’s team needed a game changer, someone who would energize their core and Ryan was that guy, Portman wasn’t.

choicelady : kes – George Will opposes ALL government support except for families who have kids with Down’s Syndrome. Guess what…

SueInCa : We all have Kes and it drives us crazy.

MurphTheSurf3 : PORTMAN impressed me in this: he his applied his “conversion” to GOP positions and leadership advocating gay marriage and claiming it as part of bedrock conservativism. Today at CPAC, the one “GLBT” panel was packed- young people are SO over this. However- PORTMAN totally disgusted me because he was forced to do this by his son’s increasingly public profile- Yale and a leader.

kesmarn : I’ve met lots of RWers like that. All unions are bad unless they happen to be getting benefits from one. All people on unemployment are deadbeats unless it’s themselves, etc.,etc.

choicelady : Murph – yes SUE can see the water!!!!

SueInCa : Right glenn that is why I made the comment about the romney campaign. Can you imagine had they gone ahead? The top of the tent would have been blown off

choicelady : I say I’m bi-river. Buffalo River to the Sacramento River. But earlier in my life I lived in Southern CA by the ocean and then in New England, so yup I’m bi-coastal, just not recently. I grew up in Chicago and did my time in the South. Only place I never lived is the NW which I’d love to do.

kesmarn : Right you are, c’lady. I can see Cantor hand in hand with Genentech.

AdLib : glenn – So true, these homophobic haters have no compassion for anyone…except “their own”. So if one of “their own” is gay, then they can change their view. Meanwhile, how much has Portman supported the anti-gay haters out there?

glenn : Sue–I know, portman has known about this since 2011. Wasn’t he one of the republican primary candidates in 2012? And wasn’t he anti-gay then? So, the way I see it, the election was more important to him than his son, if he was still spouting his anti-gay nonsense in the primaries.

SueInCa : Ok Murph what is coastal lol? I am on the coast too, closer to the sea than CL

choicelady : kes – probably not. Brown’s bill will pass the Senate, NOT the House. Cantor probably has stock in the company.

choicelady : glenn – someone ought to look at why those without a single GLBT relative and who themselves are straight still support equality. That’s true of ALL issues. I’m NOT impressed with Portman anymore than with Cheney, It’s all about THEM, not principle.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL….a transplanted snow queen…wow…ne ver would have dreamed of it….you are so “coastal”.

kesmarn : Murph and c’lady, I called Sen Sherrod Brown’s office about the med situation and he has just announced he has a bill to address this — even specifically the Avastin situation. Will it get passed, though?

SueInCa : I agree Glenn I cut him absolutely no slack on his sudden enlightenment, he is a hypocrite like all of the right. his is prob worse since he has known since 2011

choicelady : Murph – I thought you knew I’d lived in Buffalo for 16 years prior to my coming to CA. I have a love/hate relationship with the city.

choicelady : kes – it’s my understanding that when ACA kicks in fully, those kinds of drug pricings will be a thing of the past save for a very few rare drugs. The thing the EmoProgs overlooked is that ACA permits bulk purchases of drugs by government, and resale. That will bring prices DOWN in states that participate AND by the feds where they don’t. Those out of ACA with ONLY private insurance are not going to be so lucky though.

glenn : Sue–as many people have observed, isn’t it amazing that an anti-gay conservative can become so “compassionate ” when it involves his own family? Prior to that, not a thought to anyone else’s family. Selfish bastards, they are, to the core!

kesmarn : Sadly, Kasich’s approval numbers went UP recently. 53% What is WRONG with people? Amnesia-inducing meds in the water?

MurphTheSurf3 : Kes- My primary care physician is a woman, an osteopath and a gem. She has someone on her staff who spends her entire time finding alternatives to the ripoffs you just described.

glenn : Kes–I think your mafia imagery is spot on! I see it also as what we used to call the “chinese water torture”–drip, drip, drip. Others have compared it to waterboarding, which is also an apt description, in my opinion.

SueInCa : I agree with you Adlib. I have read alot of the history surrounding WWII and knowing all of that really scares me when I see stuff like MI

AdLib : Kes, Sue, glenn and Murph – I do think this illustrates that the Repub sweep of 2010 will be swept out in 2014. Rick Scott will be gone and despite all that’s happened, Walker may be out in WI as well as people have the chance to vote him out properly.

choicelady : Sue – LOL!! Maybe they saw the glint of humanity and reasonableness in his eyes! A sure job killer!

kesmarn : Murph, small example on Medicare waste. My aged Dad was on Avastin for an eye condition. Cost? About $70/month. Suddenly Avastin “became unavailable” (mysteriously). Another drug (made by same pharma manufacturer) had to be substituted. Cost? $1800/month. Medicare picks up most of the tab.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL Masiello will be getting a close look. I do not think of you as a Buffalo person…..as to the Time article…read the comment I left for Ad Lib about two friends who speak highly of the article- one is a Patient Advocate and an attorney married to a doctor.

SueInCa : does everyone now know why Rob Portman was not picked by the Romney team? lol

choicelady : Murph – just read you follow up, and I’d agree 100%.

glenn : Sue–I did sit it out, but not because I was pissed at the Prez; I really have no excuse. Well, I do, but it was intensely personal, and I will not let it happen again.

AdLib : Kes – It is outrageous that the people of any state or the nation as a whole have to be under constant attack from their Repub government and having to constantly fight off one attempt after another to take away their rights and power.

choicelady : Mruph – have not read it yet, but heard an interview with the author. He has a lot of errors – stuff that IS true now but that will change with ACA and that is a large part of why ACA is structured as it is. Some of the cost containment is up to the states – and that ought to be an incentive to even RED states but apparently isn’t. CA still has to pass the insurance control act – Brown vetoed it. Bastard. There is much in ACA that will help – which is partly why the march to be part of it will definitely appeal to business that would save a fortune by moving out of the existing system.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- I know one of those Patient Advocates the article talks about- an attorney with a wife who is a doctor. They say that the real reason the GOP is pushing to repeal ACA button again, and again and again is because they do not want the Goose that Lays the Golden Eggs killed by reform which the exchanges will introduce into the system because of real market competition. It is the medicaring of the entire system and the lobbies are getting frantic.

SueInCa : glenn I did not sit out and I can say I was so depressed at the low turnout and pissed at some constituencies. Pouting because they had not gotten the instant gratification from the Prez

kesmarn : glenn, yes, the GOP seems to sense when people’s guard has relaxed even a little and then they slide the old stiletto knife between the ribs… Sorry for the mafia imagery but it kinda fits.

AdLib : Murph – Yes, have read it and saw the journalist in interviews. It is a massive scam that no one seems to be doing anything to fix…and this slone could make a bug difference in Medicare funding.

MurphTheSurf3 : AD LIB- thanks for the PPP info…encouragi ng.

glenn : Ad Lib–that’s good news. The wave of tp’s is finally beginning to fall, and fall hard. I’m trying to keep up with news in my part of the world, so I can be prepared for the 2014 mid-terms. I will never again sit out a mid-term!

SueInCa : Thanks Adlib that makes me feel a bit better but you know they will go on to another state and learn from this experience how to be more sly

kesmarn : So cool, AdLib: “every Dem beats Snyder” in the polls!

choicelady : Murph – Tony Masiello, the ‘reform’ mayor, was a thug.I was part of a community organization that had been granted $200,000 by a city council member to develop a community owned coop grocery. The money was transferred to the Ec.Development director – and totally disappeared. We hated his predecessor who sold off snow plowing contracts to his cronies.Masiello sold off chunks of the waterfront.He bankrupted the city, but recievership did NOTHING to improve things. His successor was a worse thug. Sad, sad story for a once great city.

MurphTheSurf3 : HAS EVERYONE READ THE MARCH 4 TIME RE. THE COSTS OF MEDICAL CARE? If not, do it. Stunning. Why does medical care cost so much- it is a HUGE, GIANT, MONSTROUS PROFIT MACHINE

glenn : Kes–you’re so right about people being battle-weary. Do you all remember our optimism when we all said we’d be glad when the election is over, and we could rest for a while? Seems the r/tp’s have ramped it up even more SINCE the election!

AdLib : Sorry for the length of this excerpt but this is from last week from PPP: ” Michigan voters are unhappy with their Republican leaders. More Democrats than Republicans are favored in the Michigan legislature and for the Governor’s race next year. Not helping incumbent Republican Governor Rick Snyder’s re-election race is his current approval rating. Sitting at a 37% approval rating and larger 54% disapproval rating, Snyder has dropped one point in his approval rating since a previous poll in December. Comparing potential Democratic candidates for Governor next year with Governor Snyder, every Democrat beats Snyder. Voters prefer Virg Bernero, the mayor of Lansing and past candidate for Governor, to Snyder 43-38. Voters also prefer Democratic Congressman Gary Peters and former Democratic Congressman Mark Schauer to Snyder 44-37 and 40-36, respectively. Congressman Peters comes out on top of the Democratic potentials for Governor next year with his 7 point lead. «link»

kesmarn : Ha! glenn, at this point I think there would be rioting in the streets if Obamacare were repealed. Just as many here predicted — to know it is to love it!

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- I do not know about the Buffalo issue. Need to look it up.

kesmarn : It wouldn’t surprise me, AdLib. People are so battle-weary. The assaults never stop and people have to work two jobs…

glenn : Hey Kes–Speaking of ramming–don’t you love it that republicans/tpar tiers are STILL trying to repeal Obamacare…you know that bill that the r/tp’s claim was rammed down everyone’s throat?

choicelady : kes – first, GREAT to see you, and second, the very people who cry crocodile tears over the wonderfulness of the Constitution are the first to destroy it when they can. I’d not heard about the referendum constraints.

AdLib : Hey Kes! Yep, he doesn’t want a repeat performance of the people stopping legislation they oppose. Now will he be able to get that passed?

choicelady : Murph – the flip side is that Buffalo, NY was put under state receivership but retained the elected mayor. Net result? NOTHING got better. Just more of the same. Their solution to income problems? a CASINO!

MurphTheSurf3 : Sue, Glenn- my friends are both black and they are attorneys….the y are desperately trying to get these cases into the national spotlight and on track to the Supreme Court but getting traction has proven very difficult. With Detroit now under economic martial law more than 50 percent of all blacks in Michigan are being governed by those they did not elect.

kesmarn : Good Friday evening, Friends. Meanwhile, Ohio’s Kasich & Co. is trying to make it more difficult for citizens to get a referendum on the ballot. Once they ram a law through, they want it to stay rammed.

choicelady : Murph – I know about BH because my college roommate was from there, so that story REALLY struck home. The Emergency Manager MAY have once served a useful purpose, but Snyder is using it to steal public goods from absolutely everyone – and funny how many of those cities are blue collar and have large minority populations. Coincidence? I think not…

AdLib : Snyder seems to be of the Mussolini mold, dictatorship will make the trains run on time so he thinks the people will be so appreciative that he will be re-elected.

SueInCa : BRB

SueInCa : I was reading about Benton Harbor yesterday Murph

MurphTheSurf3 : CL- I have friends in Benton Harbor….one of the few assets the town has is a fine beach park left to the city by a kind benefactor. BH is under an emergency manager who is trying to sell it to a golf course resort company which will create a segregated little world a stone’s thrown away form abject poverty.

choicelady : Thank you, glenn. I hope so, too. Your strength is very inspirational. This IS a part of life. My sister-in-law’s father – one of the world’s truly great human beings – died decades ago at age 51. THAT was horrid. But we all have to face it. I’d just like to postpone it for quite some time!

SueInCa : Sieg Heil means it is not glenn. That is what worried me so, the police and fire, they are trying facism in MI before they spread it. Doug Coe and his fascination with everything Nazi

glenn : Murph–that’s right–I forgot about that. But, once again, how is that constitutional?

SueInCa : Okay Murph that is what I thought. At any rate I am going to write it up

choicelady : Murph – RIGHT! I’d forgotten that they’d done an end run on the recall of the law!

AdLib : CL – I suppose “Emergency” in Republican terms means “Democratically -led cities”.

glenn : CL–I’m sure you would be very strong. However, I hope you have many more years with your husband before you ever have to find your strength.

choicelady : Sue – I heard that on NPR so it might be ‘findable’ on the site.

MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn. Sue remember that the Michiganders handily voted the Emergency Manager law out in November so Snyder and his GOP Gang passed a new law as a money bill which is exempt from recall…..Seig Heil!

choicelady : glenn – the legislature passed the law. I feel reasonably confident they never intended it to be used to strip assets from cities and to dismantle public structures and systems. But that’s how it’s being used and apparently within the law.

SueInCa : CL I don’t think that is correct but I am going to go back and piece this thing together and write it up

SueInCa : Did she cover how he was replacing police and fire with his own private people?

choicelady : AdLib – I heard just today that the Emergecy Manager system was put into law in MI in 1999. This governor is just using it for evil purposes.

SueInCa : sorry that is in Detroit

glenn : CL–This crap in MI has been going on for a while. I’m still trying to wrap my head around how it’s legal, as well as constitutional, to disband an elected council, and replace it with one person, appointed by the governor. Rachel Maddow covered a lot of this before the election.

SueInCa : The city council told the people to stock up on food and water

choicelady : glenn – I am very lucky. We had an amazing Christmas because we HAD an amazing Christmas. We narrowly escaped what you’ve already had to face. You have already experienced every wife’s worst nightmare. I’m so glad you’re finding the good in your life to keep on keeping on. I honestly don’t know if I could.

SueInCa : It is martial law, that is what it is and I am surprised not many are reacting. I am thinking about writing about it.

AdLib : Sue, I find it incredible that a governor can negate all local elections and appoint people to run cities in America. Maybe in the old Soviet Union but here? In MI?

choicelady : Sue – I follow Chris Savage on Eclectablog and all that he is reporting on MI. It’s terrifying. My family had friends in MI, and I cannot believe what they’re doing.

SueInCa : White Studies for what? How mistreated they are?

glenn : CL–I remember your worry in December. I’m so happy it turned out so well for you!

AdLib : Murph – Read about that, seems that racist feels that white people have been getting the short end of the stick for at least 4 years…hmm…wh en was Obama elected?

choicelady : Murph – I LOVED the people who are now demanding “white studies”. I am sure I don’t need to explain…

glenn : Murph–Those staunch conservatives just can’t help themselves, can they? Is it just me, or are they “coming out of the closet” even more since the election. You know, the election that they are denying they lost.

choicelady : glenn – I’m so sorry that happened to you! I almost lost mine in December. You have my heartfelt empathy!

SueInCa : that should have been Hi

SueInCa : Is any one else seriously disturbed about what is going on in Michigan? He Glenn, Ad and CL

glenn : Hey Sue!

AdLib : Hey Sue!

choicelady : Hey Sue – welcome! GREAT to see you here!

MurphTheSurf3 : CPAC Panel on Transcending Racist Label Breaks Down Into Verbal Chaos. It was a session that was meant to help Republicans transcend the destructive tag. Then a white supremacist started talking segregation and everything went into a tailspin. It hit bottom when a black woman was shouted down because she dared to question what she saw as racial messags in two GOP commercials. Great optics.

SueInCa : Hey all I am here early for a change. Hello

glenn : CL–Thanks–took me over three years, after my husband passed away, to get to this point. I wish he was here with me, sharing this, but I’m accepting that he isn’t and counting, as I said, the good in my life.

AdLib : glenn – Exactly. Though it was meant as a sexist and ageist insult…even though McTurtle is older than Hillary, better to be a Golden Girl than a Lead-Brained Curmudgeon.

choicelady : glenn – what a wonderful life! That’s marvelous!

glenn : CL–I was very hesitant to fully retire; but the volunteer work keeps me involved with kids. Also, it gives me all of the good of teaching without any of the hassles. I am liking it more and more.

choicelady : But glenn – ONLY tarnished old men are running, and if they’re Golden Girls, you will have to think of them in blonde wigs and lipstick! Oh the HUMANITY!

glenn : Hi AdLib, Hi Murph. I say better the “golden girls” than the tarnished, ugly (both inside and out) old men!

choicelady : glenn – I’m aiming for that! Not quite ready for full retirement, but I AM partly retiring at the end of this month. I will work on special projects for my organization – and take long, lazy days OFF. Lobbying I’ve discovered, is a young person’s game. AND there is no such thing as comfortable shoes.

AdLib : Hey Murph! Yep, the Repubs are getting a headstart on the 2016 War on Women.

glenn : CL–At this point in my life, I am very much “settled”. Retired, do a little volunteer work, spend time with my family, generally pretty “laid back”.

choicelady : Hey AdLib!

choicelady : Murph – YIKES – Marco Rubio in DRAG????

AdLib : Hey Glenn! Hi CL!

MurphTheSurf3 : Who says the GOP has a problem with women? Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) on Friday said the field of potential Democratic candidates for the 2016 presidential race looks like “a rerun of the ‘Golden Girls.’”

choicelady : glenn – LOTS is going on in my life, but it’s all muddled and too confusing to relate. Some good, some excellent. Always good when there’s no bad involved. How about you?

glenn : Hi Choice Lady, I’m doing well, how about you? What’s new?

choicelady : glenn – fair to middlin’ at this end.

glenn : How is everyone tonight?

choicelady : hi glenn – how are you?

choicelady : CPAC of Lies! But hi to my friends!

glenn : CPAC of lies. Evening, all.

AdLib : Don’t forget to say “hi” or “CPAC of lies” when you arrive!

AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. Hope to see you then!