AdLib : Looks like time to bring tonight’s edition of Vox Populi to an end. Thanks Sally and everyone else for making it another great evening and discussion. See you next week!
AdLib : Get some sleep Murph and please do fill us in on what you see and hear!
AdLib : Murph – Ike was a military man and McCarthy was attacking the military as having commie infiltrators in it, he wasn’t a man to back down.
MurphTheSurf3 : Well, I think we have whittled the crowd down to a nub. And I must get some wisdom sleep. So….let us away. Great closing point Ad Lib.
AdLib : Murph – Great point, I think you’ve put your finger on it. The desperation comes from their realization that winning the WH is slipping away. And the comment from the business owner fits the cliche but true image of Repubs today, they would rather have their own lives damaged than have their party not “win” power.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….I agree with you re. the rush comparison. Still one of my points of admiration for Ike focuses on his repugnance for McCarthy – he knew the guy was no good and decided to take him on.
AdLib : Night Chris!
AdLib : Night Kes, sleep well!
AdLib : Take care CL and take care of your back and have a nice weekend! And no disappearing!
MurphTheSurf3 : ALL….I am really mulling over the comment I shared with you. The crowd at tomorrows GOPfest will have a number of folks I know as neighbors but there will be others and I need to have my wits about me. AdLib’s great image of the burning bridge comes to mind. I do not want to be a spark. I think folks here are getting desperate because they see the chance to get rid of Obama at the ballot box slipping away. A friend who runs a pretty sizable home repair/refurbish ment business told me that his partner (who is the business guy in their work) told him that it was almost too bad that their business had picked up so much in the last 8 months….becaus e it made Obama look better….desper ate.
AdLib : Murph – The McCarthy story is sort of a Rush Limbaugh situation. People were in fear of the power he wielded in his anti-commie campaign and begrudgingly followed him but once he was weakened, they were happy to discard him ASAP.
ChrisR266 : Golden slumbers, Sally and Kes, and I am out the door with you. I have an extended date with my laundry equipment tomorrow. Keep the faith, all.
SallyT : Night Kes and I am out the door with you.
kesmarn : As it nears 1 a.m. here I really should say good night, too. It’s been so interesting tonight! Have a great weekend, all!
choicelady : Good night AdLib – talk with you soon!
choicelady : ‘Night Sally! Thanks for sending the rain – we needed it!
choicelady : kes and Murph – Good night to you both. Murph – do let us know all about your Great Adventure tomorrow! Best of luck getting through it all! Have a good week, kes!
SallyT : Night CL! Will see you later!
choicelady : Goodnight Chris – you do the same. And float away on dreams of your cruise! We want to hear more about it!
kesmarn : G’night, c’lady. Rest that back!
MurphTheSurf3 : Choice….adieu
kesmarn : Sally, if we get control of Congress and when the Prez gets re-elected…wel l then my optimism will be unbounded!
ChrisR266 : Good evening, Choice. Take care of you.
AdLib : Murph – Thanks for the kind words. I think most Planeteers are the same, we don’t look for conflict but we won’t run away from it. When we’re on solid ground, as we are, we can absolutely prevail. As we’ve discussed about McCarthy, when others stand on the shaky ground of lies and prejudice, they can and will be upended by us, sooner or later.
choicelady : Well everyone, my aching back tells me it’s time to bid you all adieu. It’s clearly MY weak link these days! So off to get horizontal and wish all of you a great weekend. Talk with you next week – sweet dreams all!
ChrisR266 : AdLib: I get you. That’s why the force is apt. It works for good and evil.
SallyT : If the President gets elected for a second term, correction, when the President gets reelected, it will be different because he can make changes that worried him when running for election. If we get control of Congress, people will live with changes for the good of them and the country.
kesmarn : Yes, AdLib. It happened almost overnight, it seems. I long for that sort of epiphany to happen now.
MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib….the hearings were important, but mostly because McCarthy was abandoned by the rest of the GOP…..and indeed attacked by them…why…Ike hate McCarthy and let it be known that anyone supporting him was in big trouble with the Prez (and you did not mess with the General). Murrow gave the whole thing a popular spin….but it was McCarthy’s isolation then and in the months to come. He died a broken man abandoned by all.
ChrisR266 : Murph: Oh wow. That is the sort of desperation born of deep seated fears. I am not suggesting that those fears are at all founded, but I do think that so many of these desperate folks like this man/woman see “their nation” slipping away, and know at some level they are powerless to stop it.
AdLib : Kes – Yes, that’s what I’m referring to, the “have you no decency” speech made at the Army McCarthy hearings shattered McCarthy’s image and campaign. But many others like Murrow hammered it to pieces.
choicelady : Murph – that IS a disturbing and very accurate statement. It’s what we all fear. But I think he will survive and will be re-elected. I just would prefer he not go the way of A. Lincoln in his second term. I deplore the violence that exists against him – it’s truly scary.
kesmarn : What did he mean by “a lot of desperation” Murph?
MurphTheSurf3 : ALL- Part of my conversation tonight in prep for the GOP Mo. caucus tomorrow was this statement: “Hey Murph, do you know what it’s going to take for Obama to win a second term?…..Stay alive….there is a lot of desperation in the ranks of our people right now…..” I said nothing. Disturbing statement (wrapped in what I suspect the speaker imagined to be “welcoming”)
AdLib : Chris – I look at it from the other direction. When people lose the things they’ve taken for granted in life, when their freedoms are being taken away, they get mad and they get out in the streets.
choicelady : Murph – the real push was during the uptick in the Depression years. By 1936 the major industries were starting to make profits (I once did a year by year assessment, and that was the year.) That led to the CIO, the sit down strikes, Little Steel strikes, the Wagner Act, and a number of other major changes. The GOP did adopt the demands of the returning vets, but they had to do it by repudiating the Cold WAr extremists who are the predicates to the Baggers and GOP of today. The Right of the 50s were the SAME DAMN PEOPLE as they are today – just younger. I think a big loss this election will push the Right back toward the middle. I hope that happens.
kesmarn : Yes, AdLib. I sometimes wonder if McCarthy collapsed due to one simple sentence. “At long last, sir, have you no decency?”
SallyT : Nothing wrong with being prepared.
ChrisR266 : Murph: and, to face the dark side effectively, you must understand the power of the force. Indeed.
AdLib : Murph – McCarthy was brought down by the Army McCarthy hearings, by folks like Edward R. Murrow and brave writers and other Americans who stood up to him. We have many brave folks like that today, OWS is proof of that to me.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….you are being a MIGHTY PROGRESSIVE WARRIOR tonight against the forces of GOP inspired doom and gloom….A*P*P*L *A*U*S*E……bu t like LUKE in Star Wars we have to face the Dark Side……
kesmarn : Chris…good points!
choicelady : ADLib – I LIVE for a better SCOTUS!!! You know – one that actually obeys the LAW???
ChrisR266 : Choice: on this we agree.
choicelady : Chris – that’s quite true. The strongest movements are not from those in dire poverty but those standing NEXT to them who have the resources to act. Starving people do not make a strong movement, but those feeding the starving do. That is what I think is happening – people coming out of complacency and using their resources well.
kesmarn : It’s a bit daunting to realize that we have to fight basically the same battles OVER and OVER. Women’s rights…union rights…civil rights… it never seems to be settled once and for all. Each generation or two –we have to re-invent the wheel!
AdLib : CL – If we fight hard this year and if Dems take back Congress, I think Obama will be in a strong position to make some big Progressive changes to this country. That is a powerful incentive for us to work hard for his re-election. And if he could replace one of the evil 5 on the SCOTUS???
MurphTheSurf3 : Choice, the 1930’s- the great depression galvanize opposition but it did not become effective until WWII shifted power back to citizen soldier cohort who came back from war demanding their piece of the pie. The GOP adapted to that.
ChrisR266 : Kes: Might I also add something? It seems that people’s vision clears when they have a bed in which to sleep, a place to do that which is relatively safe, and the capacity to feed themselves and those they’re responsible for. When living is not such a struggle, it’s easier to see more clearly.
choicelady : kes – what galvanized the opposition was the draft. What may do the same thing is the war on labor AND on women as well as the attempt to roll us back to Jim Crow. AdLib is right – they have over-reached, and all the money in the world won’t stop the anger of people disenfranchized.
MurphTheSurf3 : Kes…McCarthy was brought down by Ike and GOP establishment. Do we have a similar internal reform movement available today?
AdLib : Murph – The Obama Admin is blocking the voter ID laws one by one. Fox is no stronger today than it was in 2008 and Obama won. RW talk radio is on the run right now. I like our chances in Nov.
kesmarn : One thing that seems hopeful to me is that things were pretty grim during the McCarthy era, and the Dark Side really seemed to be winning. But — and it seemed to happen fairly quickly — it seems as though peoples’ vision cleared and they saw it for what it really was. And rejected it.
choicelady : Sally – remember that we’ve been through this before in the 1890s into the 1920s. YES the money did a huge amount of damage to the labor movement and other issues, but it did not win. We got through the Progressive Era with MAJOR changes in their power – a massive inroad into their dominance – that came into its own in the 30s which is about where I think we are now. At least I hope so! They were unfettered and ALL powerful, even MORE than now, and they still lost. I hope that movement continues – and I see it growing.
SallyT : I guess, AdLib, if those guys thought that Obama was going to put them in FEMA camps, they are already prepared for a fight. That doesn’t make me feel to safe if one of their guys get into power.
AdLib : Sally – There are more Dems than Repubs so we can’t be spread thinner than them. We do have to accept that in some states, we are a minority and will have a difficult time reversing attacks on the people there. But Repubs will lose many governorships in the next few years and legislatures can be taken back too. For example, if WI recalls Walker and takes back two seats in the state Senate, Walkers assault on his citizens can be reversed.
MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib…I hope you are correct but I feel that Citizens United coupled with block the vote, the power of media outlets like Fox (and the talk radio crowd) plus the organized strategy (think ALEC) has made the GOP a greater threat today.
SallyT : If it was just the Republicans that we were up against, I might stay but it is not the Republican Party of old and there is so much money that controls everything now.
choicelady : Sally – yes. For Jesus. And that is no longer playing well. People who are not in those camps are getting mad that THEIR values are not being respected!
kesmarn : Murph,yes…ther e don’t even seem to BE any moderate Repubs to support any more!
kesmarn : Sally, I see what you were saying now.
kesmarn : I can see why younger people would be more tempted to leave. I recently had a 30 year old woman say to me: “Until now, I have never in my entire lifetime seen what a functional government looks like.” I hadn’t thought of it in those terms, but she was right.
AdLib : Murph – Their ignorance and hubris is always their downfall, the Repubs always get wrapped up in the power they attain and deluded. It has always led to their loss of power and it always will.
SallyT : Oh, Kes, I know you fought back but the point I was making was that if there were even more states with these happenings, we will be spread thin and not so powerful. Did that make sense?
MurphTheSurf3 : kes….which is why my agenda has become to defeat every Republican everywhere….wh ether good, bad or indifferent….w e have to destroy their power base given who is at core of the party
kesmarn : People did fight back (through the system) here in Ohio, Sally, on SB5 (the union busting one), but they are moving quickly on a number of fronts here. It never ends.
SallyT : CL, and of course they would be saying that it is for the cause of Jesus and we others are just wick for not understanding.
MurphTheSurf3 : Sally, Choice….again backing up your POV….despite the winds that seem to be blowing against them…those state based GOPers are pushing even harder at their agenda….they really believe they cannot lose in the long run and that blitzkrieg tactics are what is called for
AdLib : To be honest, I have considered moving to another country, if McCain/Palin won. If Romney was to win though, I think I would instead choose to put my Bush-era armor back on and join in on battling him and the rest of the GOP once again.
SallyT : Good night Cher, and hope to see you later!
choicelady : Cher – kiss kiss to your great hubby, and you have a wonderful weekend! Be well!
SallyT : You just have to look at Wis and Ohio and the other states that have Repug Governors to see that if there was more of them and the WH and Congress, that they could move so fast that we wouldn’t be able to stop them. I know we would try.
choicelady : AdLib – that IS what I worry about! The Lefties already are in that “Obama can round up American citizens” camp. I don’t want to be wacko. But I also don’t want to be unprepared. They are crazy and already have compounds (e.g. Ret. General Boykin and Blackwater) so we need to be sane AND open eyed!
kesmarn : Go make hubster happy, Cher! Have a wonderful weekend!
MurphTheSurf3 : Cher…goodnight
AdLib : Night Cher, so nice to see you here! Have a great weekend!
AdLib : Sally – One reason was their fear that Obama would take their guns away but their story was that it would be Obama’s first step before taking Repuubs away to FEMA concentration camps.
Chernynkaya : Guys, I’m getting “the look” from hubster. He’s lonely. I’ll bid you adieu and hope to see you tomorrow! Great discussions tonight AdLib, thanks!
choicelady : Murph – while I totally think Saintorum is sex obsessed, the larger issue IS free access. When you think Santorum, think American Taliban.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….my worry is that the crazy stuff the rightist said the Left was going to do to them was nothing more than projection- what they plan to do to the Left.
choicelady : kes – now who could hate a bacon-armored warrior princess?
SallyT : AdLib, mostly they were purchasing guns and ammo because they thought Obama was going to change the gun laws.
kesmarn : I love your optimism, AdLib, but they are the guys who designed and ran Gitmo for real. That’s scary stuff.
choicelady : Sally – you GO! Cher – you as well! We ALL will. But I think we need to think about a compound. And you all want to go South, but hubby and I hate hot weather. See – yuppie concerns can screw up the best revolution!
MurphTheSurf3 : Choice…just because you are paranoid does not mean they are not out to get you.
AdLib : Kes – My concern is that we may start sounding just like the Repubs when Obama was elected. There were record purchases of guns, Repubs were sure they would be rounded up and taken to FEMA camps, etc. We can’t allow our fears to take us down the wrong path.
choicelady : Murph – it IS paranoia. But I have a very high profile with the religious right especially, and it’s been about 20 years of dodging them in various ways. I’m never sanguine about what they are capable of doing. They’re pure, unadulterated evil.
MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib and CL…social media, very important and our bulwark BUT one of the persistent attacks from the right is on the openness of the internet….toda y’s St. Orum attack on porn is about his screwed up sexual notions but it is also about controlling the net.
ChrisR266 : Murph: No waters adventures this trip, unfortunately. But, I am a water and beach worshiper, so we reveled in the sand on both Jamaica and Grand Cayman. 7 mile beach is nothing short of amazing.
kesmarn : I might invest in bacon armor and then when they turn on the heat ray, they’ll just turn it a lovely golden-brown…p erfect with some scrambled eggs.
SallyT : CL, I won’t have a tinfoil hat but I will have feathers in my hair!
Chernynkaya : AL, agree!
AdLib : Cl – I think it’s far different today thanks to social media. I disagree, people do turn out and engage. As they did and are with OWS, as they have against Rush, good people are out there and will mobilize.
Chernynkaya : Not tinfoil, Kes–steel! Call me Road Warrior-ess.
choicelady : Sally – as you’re Native American, I find it quite fitting that the attack cry is “GOP!!! in revenge for a century of “Geronimo”!!! I think that’s marvelous!
kesmarn : AdLib, you mean it finally might be the case that WE are the ones in the tinfoil hats??
MurphTheSurf3 : CL- some may call your concern paranoia….I call it realism given the headlines we are confronted with everyday now.
ChrisR266 : Kes: Yep, especially when they see the tan on this pre-sunscreen skin, ha!
Chernynkaya : Sally, even when hubby hugs me, Zorro attacks!
SallyT : Cher, I think I might have to buy a gun, too. And, teach the dogs that Republican means ATTACK!
AdLib : Kes – FWIW, police brutality and the attack weapons they’re acquiring only work on crowds of people who aren’t prepared for it. If things went downhill and we need to go out in the streets, helmets, thermal jackets, goggles and breathing masks will be invested in and distributed. They may have the brawn but we have the brains.
ChrisR266 : Choice: First Spring break trip ever for me. I always taught on quarters, so no time to live it up like the students. Now that we’re on semesters, I actually could enjoy a break for once.
MurphTheSurf3 : Chris….did you do any underwater fun (scuba, snorkel)- one of the reasons I am MurphtheSurf
choicelady : AdLib – but remember what happened in the 50s? People got investigated and never worked again. When the Right wins, it takes YEARS to unsnarl the mess. And I’m not sure if we cannot win an election that in fact we have the numbers to protest! Most people just retreat to be safe in their own lives. It’s quite understandable. Who spoke out for Muslims after 9/11? Japanese Americans. Not a lot of other people.
kesmarn : Your fellow faculty will be soooo jealous, Chris!
ChrisR266 : Thanks, Kes. It was and we did it up brown.
Chernynkaya : But CL, you are part of a large community of faith-based institutions. THAT gets press, doesn’t it?
choicelady : Chris – that sounds wonderful! I knew it was break time, and I’m so glad you got to use it well! Sounds perfect!
kesmarn : Chris, that sounds wonderful. Glad you got the chance to get away.
Chernynkaya : If Romney wins–and he won’t–first thing I do is buy a gun. I wanted to anyway, in case of the Big Earthquake here. I know L.A.–anarchy.
choicelady : Cher – and we’d find YOU, but what of others whom we don’t know well? That IS the problem with “orderly arrests” – they don’t show on the radar, no press or TV, no ripples in the water. Just gone.
ChrisR266 : Choice, Hi: The Husband, Daughter and I took a cruise. Our first real vacay in 4 years, so well overdue. At sea, Jamaica and Grand Cayman. Wonderful time was had by all
AdLib : CL – Your concerns are fully justified but no one’s taking you away! We’ve got the numbers on our side and we may try to use reason but we’re not timid.
kesmarn : Sally, I read that the latest “toy” being sold to police departments for “crowd dispersal” is this “heat weapon” that makes one feel that their skin is on fire. “You will feel it,” was the comment.
choicelady : Chris – yes, my Y’town folks said it was in the 60s I think. How bizarre!
Chernynkaya : CL, we WOULD find you–AdLib would let us know!
choicelady : Hey Chris! Where were you and was it fun?
ChrisR266 : Howdy Cher!
ChrisR266 : Evening, AdLib: I trust you are well?
Chernynkaya : Hi Chris!
Chernynkaya : Kes, still melded!
AdLib : Hey Chris!
ChrisR266 : Hi Kes: Don’t know! was out of the country until today. Heard the weather was unusually warm.
AdLib : Kes – Right with you on that. The OWS movement did the right thing by not returning the assaults by police but if the police forces in this country were to turn on the general population if they come out to protest, it would be another story I think.
Chernynkaya : AL, TPM also has a poll average with PBO ahead, and HALF their polls were Rasmuessen. Also, David Frum kinda outed Gallup ar polling more Rs than D’s.
choicelady : Cher – yes, but what awaits me and others in my organization is a full scale “investigation ” of our support for GLBT rights. Every one of the candidates signed the pledge to investigate groups such as mine. It’s the ‘picking off” of individuals that makes this dangerous. OWS has a focus, but who among you would even KNOW if anything happened to me? I’d just disappear. You have no clue how to find me. Only AdLib does. So that is what they would do. And if any of you disappeared, how would WE know where you are when we don’t know WHO you are in “real life”? If they do this one by one, it’s the perfect tactic and it’s insidious.
kesmarn : Chris! Hey! Did you get thunder, lightning and hail last night?
SallyT : I heard somewhere that with the military budget being cut that those manufactors where trying to sell to the local police some of the weapons. Like ever small drones.
ChrisR266 : I know it’s late, but just popped in to say hi to y’all. Hope everyone is well.
kesmarn : Yes, Cher! That’s eerie. That’s the third time we’ve said virtually the same thing!
Chernynkaya : Kes, the police were terrifying–real ly gestapo-like. Did you see my comment about the HS students below?
SallyT : Well, they arrested George Clooney, Murph, but isn’t there any other rich actor?
kesmarn : When you see the reaction there was to the OWS protesters last fall…that was frightening to me. The brutality of it. And the way that police departments were so totally at the service of the powers-that-be.
choicelady : Murph – let’s face it. Carter was a sap. He had no spine, and yes he got totally screwed. I believe and will always believe that Reagan cut a deal with Iran to keep the hostages even though NO one ever wanted to really investigate that. But Carter was a wimp and apologetic and a poor leader. PBO is NOT any of those things. AND he is a master tactician. If anyone deserved to get beaten it was Clinton – and he won on the strength of likeability which PBO has and a great machine which PBO has.
AdLib : Cher – Great point, Rasmussen polls artificially depress Obama’s average and yet he’s still ahead!
Chernynkaya : CL, I know that you are being targeted by your good work, but I honestly believe if it became more widespread, Americans would fight back. Look at OWS for a tiny preview. OTOH, I read today on Thom Hartman that a HS in Maryland tried to protest the firing of teachers with a walkout, and the cops sent attack dogs. So we are near a tipping point.
MurphTheSurf3 : Sally T…Can’t we get a sugar daddy to pop for a national id cards drive….state by state getting the new cards for everyone on our side of the issues.
AdLib : Murph – Romney is no Reagan and there is no Iran hostage crisis being manipulated by the Repubs. The situation in 2012 is very different. Romney is strongly disliked, Reagan was very liked.
SallyT : CL, I am with you all the way. I am afraid of these people and how far they would go to have it their way.
kesmarn : I was contacted by the Arbitron radio ratings people yesterday to report radio listening habits for a week. I’m hoping there’s some way I can register on their polls as being extremely anti RW talk radio.
SallyT : And, remember that they are keeping people from being able to vote!
Chernynkaya : AL, and RCP uses Gallup and Rasmuessen in their averages–both known repub biased pollsters.
MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib….At this time in the campaign, Carter was killing Reagan…25 point lead….worry, worry, worry
choicelady : everyone – if we lose the White House it really may not be safe for people such as we. These extremists know no bounds, and they are slavering to round us up. What they are doing to women and labor anbd minorities is SO beyond the limits of anything we ever thought we’d see again we have to understand they have NO LIMITS.
AdLib : Night Sabreen!
Chernynkaya : On a positive note, look what happened with Komen, and Limbaugh. I think that proves how passionate people are about these issues.
AdLib : On RCP, the poll average is Obama over Romney by 4.1% (some individual polls gave Obama a double digit lead). Romney should be well ahead of Obama in polls now. Kerry was ahead of Bush at this point in 2004. With the economy and jobs so tough, Obama should have a low approval rating and ROmney should be well ahead in the polls…but he’s not. If this is Romney’s best opportunity to be ahead, how will he fair in a GE against Obama where his lies and flip flops won’t be overlooked as much as fellow Repubs allowed. Romney will lose convincingly…a s long as we work hard to GOTV!
kesmarn : To be fair, c’lady, I don’t know that he’d leave immediately. But his goal would be to get out asap, whether before or after he gets that degree, I’m not sure.
choicelady : kes – that’s pretty heavy with your son having gotten such a great opportunity at Purdue! That says a great deal about his commitment to democracy! Wow.
Chernynkaya : Night, Sabreen!
SallyT : Good night Sabreen! See you later!
choicelady : Good night, Sabreen! Keep up the great work!
kesmarn : G’night Sabreen! Have a great weekend!
kesmarn : My son said the same thing. If they win, he’s leaving the country.
Chernynkaya : Funk, yep. I can’t believe it’s Constitutional, but it takes years to get it overturned, unless a Circuit ct steps in. whcih they did in one state already.
Sabreen60 : Adlib those are my top issues as well. And with that, thank all of you for all the info and have a great week. BTW, there are far too many women who are not paying attention. Never be afraid to inform. Good night and stay safe.
funksands : Cher, my wife has told me under no uncertain terms that she is moving with the kids to Australia if Romney or Santorum win. She’s not kidding
choicelady : Cher – if we lose, I personally will have no choice but to leave. It will not be possible for me to stay.
SallyT : Cher, I agree that this election is very important. I am not ready to sell everything and leave the country but I will.
SueInCa : cher so do I but I am only staying if there is an army of us a few alone cannot do it
AdLib : Funk – Yes, the party that doesn’t want government to come between you and your doctor, has passed a law that not only comes between you and your doctor but demands that he lie to you. That’s the Repub version of smaller government…sma ll enough to fit inside a doctor’s brain.
MurphTheSurf3 : CL-+- agree re. RCC….yesterday ‘s positioning re. birth control as abortion and completely affordable by all and not requiring insurance or government support….feeds into a message- we are no longer interested in life in the real world.
Chernynkaya : Sue, I got into an little argument with my son about moving out of US. He said, Why should WE leave and have to start over? This is MY country–I’ll stay and fight, let them leave. I disagreed with him, but I see his point too.
choicelady : AdLib – I saw something on yahoo news today that PBO now has a 51% approval rating. This is evidence that our hard work really DOES matter.
kesmarn : AdLib, your staunch optimism is such an encouragement. Keep it coming. And Cher, I agree. This election is the election of our lifetimes!
choicelady : Murph – I do not see the papacy changing toward VAtican II and Pope John XXIII who was simply amazing. They are retrenching – it’s the death knell of any organization, but they see it as “preserving” the church. It will not work.
SallyT : CL, you know I read everything from you! I remember!
Chernynkaya : Kes, I truly believe this election is the most important one of my life.
AdLib : Kes – We’re not going to lose this war, we will win again as we did in the actual Civil War. I actually welcomed that outlier poll this week that got pudnuts saying, “Obama could lose due to gas prices,” because we do need to fight hard in the election against the voter suppression and hundreds of millions of corporate SuperPAC money trying to foist Romney on us as President. But I do believe we will prevail. We can’t afford to lose, absolutely, so we can’t lose.
MurphTheSurf3 : Kes…anarcho-Ca tholics
Chernynkaya : Al, right there with you! And he WILL.
MurphTheSurf3 : Choice….found it «link» strong links to Opus Dei….but give Benedicts failing health, who is the papacy
funksands : So its now legally required in Kansas for doctors to lie to women, and also now illegal for women to sue doctors for lying to them? Wow
kesmarn : Murph, if I may answer. In short, a Catholic that is “more Catholic than the Pope.” Ultra-conservati ve, ultra-traditiona l except on issues of social justice.
Chernynkaya : I know this is MoveOn, but this ad speaks to and for most women: «link»
choicelady : Sally – remember my discussion with you about our missionaries pressing their message on indigenous people NOT because they thought y’all were wrong but because they feared you were right? Well today’s contemporary Protestants are definitely paying attention to corn. And kes – to CHEESE! Protestants are seeing the need for deeper spirituality grounded in the natural world and reverence for what indigenous people bring to us about spirituality. So CORN is good! Cheese too!
SueInCa : Kes you are right. If we lose this one watch out – Costa Rica is nice
SallyT : AdLib, and SS, too.
kesmarn : Cher, just this evening was talking to my son about the civil war situation. Saying this feels like a really epic battle (at the risk of sounding melodramatic) and the biggest national split since the Civil War. If we lose this one, it’s going to be major.
AdLib : Cher and CL – My top issues for Obama to push: Protect Medicare, Fight against The War On Women, Protect the 99% and tax the wealthy.
SueInCa : CL I believe it after reading the Const Party website.
choicelady : ADLib – I hope that’s the case. I REALLY hope women have just about HAD it with the Right.
MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- ultramontagne Catholic? this means?
Chernynkaya : Choice I pretty much agree with you about older blue collars and War On Women, but I’ve been reading from them too–they have daughters and granddaughters. They are not selfish by and large.
choicelady : Sue – Leah found ties between the Pauls and the Dominionist movement. He may be fringe, but he’s there.
SallyT : My dogs believe in corn, too.
AdLib : CL – Agreed, the 99% argument is the most universal for Obama to make and he should. But from a strategic POV, if Obama can get a strong majority of indie women voters, he’ll win the election.
kesmarn : Yes, I’ve seen the pet thing too! There’s a sucker born every minute.
SueInCa : Santorum and Gingrich for sure Romney has his own white horse prophecy to complete and Paulson would go with anyone to be in the WH. He is more the Constitution party guy
choicelady : Murph – Newt, Santorum (he’s what we call an ultramontagne Catholic in league with the New Apostolic Reformation dominionist church movement – he’s NOT a good Roman Catholic at ALL), and yes, even Ron and Rand PAul. Romney is not – but he sucks up anyway.
Chernynkaya : AL, Oh my dear God!! What?? Is there no end to their inanity?
choicelady : AdLib – yes, I know the site on post-Rapture pets. Amazing isn’t it!
MurphTheSurf3 : Sue, Choice….of the four left to the GOP….who are the dominionists?
choicelady : AdLib – given the relentless drumbeat of pursuing massive inequality in America, women are the logical place to start. It’s more dicey with minorities since some are “Christians” but women are fair game, as are union people. I really do want the War against Women to be a big issue, but it cannot be the ONLY issue since conservative blue collar people who are older and not directly impacted by these laws can see their relationship to women if and only if we point out what has happened to their right to be compensated justly, etc. The issue is bigger than JUST women – it is everyone who is not a business owner and a larger owner at that. We have to have unity so that people DO see their own interests. Women won’t carry this alone – we may be over half the voters, but not all are wise and certainly not all are Dems. ALL people being stomped under the heel of unfettered Dominionist Capitalism need to unite and have their issues articulated.
AdLib : Holy shit…I was Googling on the Rapture and this came up…I thought it was a joke but it looks like a real site! Hilarious! After The Rapture Pet Care: «link»
Chernynkaya : I guess the bottom line for me is that for a variety of reasons, we are actually in the midst of a cold civil war. Half the nation wants good, progressive things, and the other half wants to go back to the bad ol’ days. (not really 50/50 but roughly.) So we can expect these maddening issues to remain for a while. At least, that’s what I tell myself. It’s just part of the pendulum I guess.
SallyT : Got ya, AdLib. But not that planet that the Mormon’s have?
kesmarn : Boy are they in for a rude awakening.
SueInCa : CL the Dominionists are dead set on building that new temple where the mosque is in Jeruselem. they also are trying to breed the red cow to fulfill prophecy so they can hurry up and wait for Jaysus
AdLib : Sally – The Dominionists think that they can patronize the Jews long enough to get the Apocalypse to come then wave bye-bye to those suckers as the Dominionists are all taken up to Heaven.
Chernynkaya : AL, great point. And I think many people still don’t know what’s going on with these repressive laws. It takes MONTHS for news to spread–people aren’t paying attention yet.
MurphTheSurf3 : ADLib …the references to an electric grid wipe out and slamming the governments net adds a lot of credibility to the entire scenario. Israel has 8 high altitude bombers only and they would target the grid which is almost entirely above ground. And Israel has demonstrated its computer hacking expertise already. The commando raids get past the problem of the the sites being underground. Just the kind of plan to panic an enemy.
kesmarn : Sally, if we all became cornicators, the world might be a more peaceful place.
SallyT : Cheesy Corn, that works, Cher!
choicelady : Sally – one big point: this is NOT Christian belief. It’s Dominionist belief. Christians overall do not believe in Armageddon and for SURE don’t promote it!!!! Catholics and Protestants are united on that point. Evangelicals for the most part see it as something for the VERY distant future. Only the Dominionists take it as a fact. It has to do with our current timein literalist views: 4000 years creation to Jesus, 2000 years til now. That’s 6000 years which is equal to the six days of creation when the End will come. Only the Pentecostals morphing into Dominionists believe this. VERY small numbers, very large influence!
AdLib : Cher – I don’t think women across America will take what’s going on apathetically. For most women and men in America, they’re only “activist” on election day. I strongly believe that the Repubs that have gone so extreme and overplayed their hands will be taken out of office by voters…especia lly women voters.
Chernynkaya : Sally, I believe in cheese!
Chernynkaya : I should have added: at least not the way Christians do.
SallyT : Cher, I know that but the Christians think they should be. NOT ME! I think you all should believe in Corn!
SallyT : CL, that is what I thought and yes they never really talk about that . But the Mormon’s will probably have them all convert to them by then anyway…..
Chernynkaya : But Sally, Jews don’t believe in armageddon anyway.
AdLib : Murph – Exactly. If Israel was planning an imminent attack, the last thing they’d do is leak all this info about it. This is intended to rattle the Iranians and scare them into negotiating. Usually, just before Israel attacks, you don’t hear a lot of threats flying from them in the press.
Chernynkaya : Cl. that is spot on!
choicelady : Sally – yes, Jews die if they have not converted. That message gets left out. Seriously.
Chernynkaya : CL, I am gobsmacked by the apathy too. There is a big part of me that says, Well, you voted for these governors and legislatures. Live with it. You got what you want. But I can’t really believe that most Americans will stand for it. If they do, then Rev Wright was right: God damn America!
SallyT : CL, but according to the Armageddon and Christen beliefs, don’t all the Jews get killed?
kesmarn : Glen Beck is feeding into all this war-mongering, too, if I’m not mistaken.
choicelady : Cher – the Orthodox have become blind to anything but their slavering hatred of Muslims. “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.” When you have people such as the idiot stalking me coddling and celebrating their way of life (on the surface – they want them to convert or die in reality) they think they found a new BFF. Especially if $$$$ is directed to their work within Israel.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….your point re. Israel is backed by the apparent transparency of the Israeli plan…”we can do this and we will” is what Israel seems to be saying.
SueInCa : CL I found it very disturbing the things the evangelical military are saying to jewish soldiers. seems they can say what they want when no one is listening? One comment referred to smoke…it was dispicable
choicelady : Cher – they think everyone but us unreconstructed liberals wants what they want. And the thundering silence of AZ women AND the AMA/ACOG all seem to be evidence that yes, Americans want a return to Biblical America!
SallyT : No problem, Cher. My comment got lost so that lead to the confusion.
Chernynkaya : CL, I just cannot understand why the orthodox don’t see that. I know Bibi does.
AdLib : I don’t fear The Big One. Israel sure isn’t going to drop a nuke without the US supporting it and Obama never would. I do think an Israeli strike is possible but unlikely in the near term. They need to threaten attacks at this point, for internal political reasons and to give the US the best chance at negotiating an agreement. This does make a lot of sense as a negotiating position. An actual attack would weaken Israel though, unite a troubled Iran and turn the world against Israel. I think threats of an attack will grow stronger but any actual attack would be delayed until Iran turns its back on negotiations…a nd Iran knows that.
Chernynkaya : Oh, sorry, Sally. read too fast.
Chernynkaya : But here’s the thing about the Dominionists: if they were smart, they’d lay low and do their behind the scenes plotting. But they’re riling up social issues–war on women, etc, so now they’re on the radar. Stupid.
MurphTheSurf3 : Kes- Jane’s thinks it is a done deal and the Iranians know it. They are very much along in the region.
choicelady : Cher – the guy behind my stalkers is head of the “West Coast Christian Embassy”. He lived in Israel for 20 years pushing the Dominionist-Isra eli alliance. He got ejected for proselytizing, but I have to think he was hardly alone. The fusion of Hagee et al. with the Orthodox is what keeps the latter alive – they Christian Dominionists feed the coffers and the zealotry. The Israelis HAVE to wake UP and see how disgustingly they are being used! I’m not making this up – Dominionists are taught to be nice to Jews during the “tribulation” which Obama’s administration is becoming for them. The reason? So Christian extremists can take over Israel and fulfill prophecy for Armageddon.
kesmarn : Hmmm…don’t know if I would count on that either, Murph…
SallyT : Cher, I know. My comment was meant to follow CL that Israeli would expect us to back them up. But Obama says no.
MurphTheSurf3 : Kes- forgot Jane’s says the plan presupposes the support of Jordan and Iraq both of which hate Iran. They would close their eyes to the intrusion.
SueInCa : Because Bush the first agreed to the waivers in the first place? Perhaps it is Geithner or someone else but the CFTC is the agency who can stop it.
Chernynkaya : Sally, Obama said he would not back up Israel if they attack Iran.
kesmarn : c’lady, that is my sense, too. The Dominionists have been angling for a show down for years and they don’t want to be thwarted now.
SallyT : CL, they want a war in South Africa, too.
Chernynkaya : AL, Israel, being Parliamentary, gives too much weight to their Ultra Orthodox–who are insane. Israel as you know is secular–the vast majority is NOT even religious. But the govt coalition is heavily Orthodox right now. It seems to be a Western world phenomenon.
choicelady : kes – NOT having Israel’s back will unleash the hounds of hell on Obama. The Dominionists think this IS the End Times and will be in a rage. I fear for our president.
choicelady : Cher – that is my thought. Dominionists will try to seize power if Obama doesn’t do what they want. They are pushing this and are behind the drumbeat in the MSM. It’s not all AIPAC. It’s the extremist faux Christians, too.
AdLib : Sue – But why would it be an issue for Obama to go to the CFTC and pull the waivers?
kesmarn : PBO warned them in advance: if they go it alone, we won’t have their back. That’s all he can do, I guess.
MurphTheSurf3 : Kes- Israeli copters (both transport and attack) are among the best in the world. Jane’s said they would penetrate the border defenses with little loss….esp. with a dead electrical and computer grid.
SallyT : CL, and we will be there to back them up.
SallyT : I know, Cher!
choicelady : kes – yes, I worry about that, too! It’s scary having an “ally” who is so unstable and bold as to think they can do anything they want.
kesmarn : Murph, those helicopter pilots would have to be semi-suicidal. That would be a ridiculous risk.
Chernynkaya : Well, that’s what C Street and the Fundies want: Armageddon.
SallyT : WAR is never usually what the populations of any country wants.
AdLib : Cher – A good point was made last week, that Israel, Iran and the US are in the run up to elections and thus are sabre rattling for political reasons…yet it doesn’t mean they won’t act on it. It is a dangerous time.
kesmarn : I think this could really possibly ignite the Big One. Not to be an alarmist, but…wow…
choicelady : Murph – That’s a really good source, Jane’s. haven’t looked at that in years. I will though. Thanks!
Chernynkaya : Me too, kes. And the way the US media is repeating the same BS that they did prior to Iraq enrages me.
SueInCa : I agree Cher he is a crazy one
MurphTheSurf3 : Kes…the Israelis (per Jane’s Fighting Forces)are projecting their plan. Their limited air force knocks out the electric grid, a huge viral release in the Iranian Government Computer Net, helicopter and skidboat launched commando raids against 50 sites aiming to destroy the sites from the inside out.
kesmarn : Cher, that’s just what I was going to ask you. This prospect terrifies me.
SueInCa : Al Because he would have togo to the CFTC and demand they remove the waivers given to these Financial institutions under HGWBush that allowed them to get into speculating
Chernynkaya : Thanks, Sally!
Chernynkaya : Kes, 70% of Israelis say NO to striking Iran. But Bibi will do it, IMO.
SallyT : AH!!! THat’s my CHER! I’ve missed ya!
kesmarn : Cher, we are really in mind-meld mode tonight!
Chernynkaya : Speaking of destabilizing oil–and the ME–may I just add: FUCK YOU, Netanyahu.
AdLib : Murph – And they are worried about Iraq and Iran so they don’t want the US being financially pressured to pull back.
kesmarn : Does anyone think that Israel may indeed go ahead with a unilateral strike on Iran?
MurphTheSurf3 : AL….the Saudis do not want to be dealing with war mongering GOP….they have SO MUCH to lose with the reckless destabilizing of the Gulf region.
funksands : Murph, a SINGLE speculator can hold up to 25% of all deliverable oil at one time under the CURRENT restrictions. A federal judge may overturn even those rules.
Chernynkaya : Ooops, jinx, kes, on the oil reserves!
AdLib : Murph – I’m a bit bewildered by that as well, why isn’t Obama moving to curb speculation on oil which is a real way to reduce gas prices permanently? BTW, the Saudis have agreed to keep providing higher levels of oil so that seems to be stabilizing prices which haven’t gone up this week.
SallyT : CL, we are having flood here too.
MurphTheSurf3 : Funk…..that makes sense but without those limits the CFTC is a clanging gong.
choicelady : Sally – CA is the “all or nothing” state! Today – it’s ALL.
SallyT : I am watching Game Change with the hubby right now. He hasn’t seen it yet. I have twice.
Chernynkaya : AL, I’m sure he’ll use that. But it still is defensive. What he HAS been doing is educating via speeches that there is not much we can do. He blames speculators now, and big oil a little. But I think his main goal is not to use the issue, but to try and solve it through calming eveyone. He and Cameron are also releasing some oil from strategic researves.
funksands : Murph – The administration may be waiting for the result of the lawsuit against the CFTC for their position limits that they already impose. Just a guess.
choicelady : kes – I bet that’s it. Tapping the reserves IS presidential, and that squelches speculation faster than anything. Good for PBO and even weird Cameron.
AdLib : Sally – Yep, thanks for asking. Hope all is well your way!
SallyT : You got rain, CL? Figures that when you did it would be too much all at once!
choicelady : Sally – I’m OK now, but a hell of a day. Tons of rain and flooding, witnessed a purse theft, my boss witnessed a MAJOR shoplifting, we had leaks in our building, and plans for a conference I’m doing late April just fell apart. Other than that – great day. How’s about you?
SallyT : Hi, AdLib! Having a good night?
AdLib : Hey Sally!
AdLib : Cher – That’s what I would think, most people know, despite the MSM hammering this into them, that the President doesn’t control gas prices. Obama has such a great pivot to use on this too, hammer the oil companies and their billions in tax money they get from us, hammer on taxing them a windfall profits tax and taxing the wealthy and get that money back into Americans’ hands through the jobs these taxes would generate.
SallyT : Hi Sabreen, and yes she did the inner city tonight and FOX is going to have a hard time putting her down now because she showed the other side in not to good a light.
kesmarn : Did I hear that PBO and Cameron were talking about tapping oil reserves? Seems every time that subject comes up, prices stabilize.
Chernynkaya : Oh, Hi Murph. Didn’t see you!
choicelady : Cher – isn’t she just. I plotzed when I found out she’s supposedly “liberal”. Yeah. Right.
Chernynkaya : Hi Sally!!
SallyT : CL, my friend, how are you?
MurphTheSurf3 : ANYONE….why is Obama not pushing hard on the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission in re. to gas speculation. Standards were voted in October. A coaltion of Dem House and Senate folks has asked the WH to push, but nothing (that I know of)….worth between 60 cents and a One Dollar a gallon.
Chernynkaya : He LOVES Paul Ryan. And Mika is a mewling prissy nothingburger.
Sabreen60 : Hi Sally!
SallyT : Hi Kes and hello Cher, I haven’t see you in awhile!
choicelady : Hey Sally – didn’t see you come in! How are you?
kesmarn : Hey, Sally!
choicelady : Cher – Morning Joe wants RYAN?????? Mika should beat him up on the air about that. RYAN??????
Chernynkaya : Cl, the petrol market is so convoluted I can’t figure it out.
kesmarn : It’s about 3.90/gal here in NW Ohio.
SallyT : She did the inner city tonight and that is the one Sabreen was telling you about.
choicelady : Cher – something odd is happening here in Sacto. Gas has stabilized. Cannot explain that. It’s outrageous, but it’s stable. What’s up with that?
Chernynkaya : CL, last week he was still hoping for a constested convention, He wants Christie, Daniels or his fave, Paul Ryan.
AdLib : Sabreen – I think she was doing it in conjunction with Maher’s show. And next she’ll be doing one in the inner city.
Sabreen60 : Hi Murph!
Chernynkaya : Actually, AL, although many polls show that majorities know that gas prices are not Obama’s fault, if gas were to go to say $6 0r $7 a gallon, I’ll be very worried. And we know the GOP is doing whatever it can to make that happen
AdLib : Cher – There is no positive reason to vote for Romney that has any import. Yeah, he’ll give us all ponies but Romney has only one path to winning, destroy everyone else and just be the last one standing.
funksands : Murph, I suspect your caucus will be like mine: Quiet
MurphTheSurf3 : I suspect the Pubs are going to hang a huge “D” around my neck to be sure no one listens to me.
choicelady : But Cher – whom does Joe WANT as a candidate? Romney is the best of this wicked awful lot! What the HELL does that say about Morning Joe?
choicelady : Hey Murph! Wow – the work of infiltrating the caucuses is spreading, and some of our fave guys are leading the way! THIS is excellent, and we look forward to your report!
Sabreen60 : Adlib, I didn’t know that was the entire documentary. Geez.
kesmarn : Hey, Murph! Good luck tomorrow!
AdLib : Hey Murph! We expect a full report of your adventures in Baggerville.
Chernynkaya : Al, I may be living in my bubble, but I have not seen ONE article by a repub that isn’t lamenting Romney as a candidate. In fact last week, Morning Joe was wonderful: Joe wanted to hang himslef in despair.
funksands : AL – Or fix my damn gutters!! What a snob!
kesmarn : Thanks for the recommendations, c’lady. I appreciate them.
AdLib : Funk – But Obama won’t lower gas prices!
MurphTheSurf3 : Hello All…I have arrived…Taaaaa Daaaaaa…..spen t a fun hour on the phone being prepped about the Mo. caucus tomorrow AM. I am attending as a “Democrat Leaning Guest” of my county’s GOP. Whoooopeeee. Missouri went solidly for St. Orum in the beauty contest.
AdLib : Cher – Mitt’s trying to use that against Santorum too. My response is, “And neither greedily bankrupted companies and robbed people of their jobs either.”
funksands : Since WW2 Dem Presidents have presided over: Lower poverty rates, better job growth, better stock market performance, smaller deficits, and more al queda leaders killed.
kesmarn : And “firing people who provide services to me…”
choicelady : kes – the one writer I think very wise is Gar Alperovitz. His book, “America Beyond Capitalism” is a very thoughtful assessment of how working people can own and manage businesses and how that, in turn, creates infinitely better chances of democratic participation. It’s a really good place to start reading. Most of what I have read is very arcane – I’d not recommend it. But Gar’s book is superb. And I’m trying to find other works as well that are that thoughtful. He puts the primacy on worker’s brains as the real force behind intelligent production. We did a lot of that work in the cooperative movement back in the 70s and 80s but it got dropped. I hope it gets revived. Also too much of the coop movement got “granolaed” and lost its political primacy. But it’s still an issue. Look up Mondragon – it’s the enormous Spanish coop. The United Steelworkers have an alliance with them and are pursuing looking at ways for working people to own and run businesses of all types.
Chernynkaya : Kes, he only considers a job “real” if it involves greed, millions of dollars in filthy lucre, and the private sector.
kesmarn : HaH! And Mittens HAS??
Chernynkaya : Mitt’s latest lie is that Obama can’t create jobs because he’s nver had a real one.
AdLib : Funk – Yes, saw the Biden speech and it was great. After all these years of bipartisanship seeking, to have Biden and Obama start hammering the Repubs is just what the doctor ordered.
AdLib : Cher – And we know how pivotal debates are in the Presidential campaign. I am so anxious to see Obama face off with the lying, hollow man and just take him apart on the lies that he typically spews.
kesmarn : Biden was here in Toledo yesterday, funk. Fired up!
Chernynkaya : Sabreen, I put up that link earlier. I wish the South had seceded.
funksands : Oops here it is: «link»
Chernynkaya : Funk, I missed Biden today, but saw Obama in Atlanta. He was magnificent. He laid out the moral differences between us an the repubs, without saying that.
funksands : Biden today: Look, I want to tell you what’s real bankruptcy, the economic theories of Gingrich, Santorum, and Romney — they are bankrupt. (Applause.) If you give any one of these guys the keys to the White House, they will bankrupt the middle class again. (Applause.)http: //www.realclearp olitics.com/arti cles/2012/03/15/ vice_president_b idens_campaign_s peech_in_toledo_ 113512.html
kesmarn : Oh Sabreen, I saw the first one in Mississippi with the unreconstructed rebels, but didn’t see the NYC part.
AdLib : Sabreen – I was under the impression that the segment on Maher was her entire documentary. It certainly hammered reality to the cliches of rural Repubs, even if it wasn’t fully representative.
choicelady : kes – yes, the Trilateral Commission still exists, but it is almost unnecessary since they got what they wanted. I’m not sure there are any global think tanks worth much these days as people are beginning to see – even the capitalists who benefitted – that globalism is very dangerous to capitalism. It’s the Golum! You unleash it – you cannot control it. And it MUST be or you get – what we have.
funksands : Did you all see Biden’s speech today in Toledo? If this is how they are going to campaign, they are going to be verrry effective.
Chernynkaya : AL, I am becoming more confident too. I’ve been watching his latest speeches and honestly,no one can touch him. If the economy stays even–not even imporves–he will win in a landslide.
kesmarn : What are some more recent thinkers that you respect, c’lady, when it comes to the workers of the world uniting and the evils of unregulated capitalism?
Sabreen60 : Has anyone seen Nancy Pelosi’s daughter’s documentary. I saw a clip from Mississippi where the attitude is “the south will rise again; Pres. Obama is a half-breed but still black; and even though this guy was on food stamps he hates the government. They want God and not “free” money from the government. Of course she also had to go to the Welfare office in NYC and show 3 black guys who didn’t want to work but wanted government/Obama money.
AdLib : Cher – As Romeny and the Kochs sppend hundreds of millions trying to destroy Obama, Obama’s campaign will be hammering on the War on Women and I am confident, his campaign will be far more effective than their dishonest one.
Chernynkaya : (just as an aside: We are on diets, and hubby has become obsessed with The Food network!–so funny)
choicelady : kes – I have scant use for Karl whose history was dreadful and prescriptions pretty useless. He really knew nothing of industrial production or what in government enhances or does not the participation of working people. His work is really outstanding on class – and then kind of falls apart. But there are others whom we used to call “plain” Marxists who found the analytic principles of class very helpful but who did not have a political agenda as naive as did Karl. Quite a large number of people have spun off that plain Marxism (pretty much defunct now, too) into some brilliant work on how people really organize, how they function on the work floor, how they can unite politically. We have Karl to thank for getting it started, but he’s not where we should look for guidelines today.
kesmarn : Well put, funk.
funksands : Kes, too right. If everything breaks, so much the better. An inert host is easier to feed on.
kesmarn : funk, I’ve come to realize that when there are trillions at stake they will throw anyone under the bus, including their own family members.
kesmarn : Creepy…do they still exist, c’lady?
Chernynkaya : Al, the MSM press is so far behind bloggers and even cable tv on this issue! But if they keep this up, people will gradually become aware. Look how effective we were on Limbaugh.
choicelady : kes – the Trilateral was a global organization or think tank representing Europe/North America/Japan – hence the Tri-lateral. It was to concoct policies that would enhance the development of global markets and free trade. When the three authors outlined this – which included the curtailing of democratic participation which they called “the distemper of democracy”, no one flinched save a handful of us who were horrified. And it’s ALL come to pass. All of it.
AdLib : Funk – Just as the Repubs figured they could co-opt seniors to support the Ryan kill-Medicare plan by promising not to take it away from them…they think everyone is as selfish and immoral as they are.
Chernynkaya : CL, also, Agenda 21: «link» The Right calls this a communist plot.
kesmarn : We need to dig up old Karl Marx again, then c’lady!
choicelady : kes – Yes. When W et al. talked about going back before Roosevelt, they meant Teddy. “Forward to the Past” is their motto. They want NO taxes, no regulation, no labor protections, no organized labor, no civil rights, no freedom of the press, no nothin’. Free and unfettered capitalism coupled with mandatory Christianization of us all.
funksands : There are trillions in looting at stake for the GOP’s employers, why does anyone think the dignity of their daughters and mothers will stand in the way of that?
kesmarn : c’lady, at the risk of sounding like a complete ignoramus: what exactly was/is the Trilateral Commission?
AdLib : Kes – This resurgence of the RW Evangelicals is surreal but we need a more vigorous press to tamp it down and instead, they exploit and validate it for financial gain.
Chernynkaya : Well, I can’t say I wasn’t warned. Whenever there is serious economic pain, people revert to the worst impulses. I guess I just didn’t really want to believe it.
choicelady : kes – Yes. There IS a world-wide script. It was written in 1976 or 77 and it’s called “The Crisis of Democracy” by Michael Crozier, the ever-lovable Samuel Huntington, and Joje Watanabe. It was a Trilateral Commission publication, is still available (try to find it used – it’s expensive) and is being TAUGHT as a guide book to globalism even today. It has the check off list – and everything they wanted, they now have. Jimmy Carter liked it even though today he’d repudiate it. It’s despicable.
kesmarn : Social Darwinism, eugenics, banning birth control…have we flipped back to 1880?
AdLib : Kes – Actually, it’s what happens all around the world. The haves always take from the have-nots…unti l the oppression becomes too much then they revolt.
Chernynkaya : kes, I think there is an unhealthy part of human nature that scapgoats the poor and the sick, because that’s what people are afraid of most.
AdLib : Funk – Ron Paul basically admitted on national TV that someone who is uninsured should be left to die outside a hospital. He said “no” but then said that he shouldn’t be admitted.
Chernynkaya : CL, no, no one of those people consider anything like that!These people are all about punishment and shame. They were raised on it.
kesmarn : The weird thing is that the RW in England is doing the same thing. All the austerity measures are coming right out of the hides of the poor. It’s really awful. Do they have a world-wide script?
choicelady : ADLib – he was within a hair’s breadth of saying that.
AdLib : Sabreen – I was surprised the PA Gov didn’t just advise women to “just lie back and enjoy it.” Disgusting.
Chernynkaya : AL, TX is horrible!
choicelady : Cher – did no one every consider that women who have been traumatized by an unwanted pregnancy will perhaps WAIT until the second tri to get the abdominal ultrasound? Oh now THAT’s progress.
funksands : Hi Sabreen, I say we pivot to Ron Paul’s War on Humans
AdLib : Seeya Sue, hopefully in a bit!
AdLib : How about what’s happening in TX, already at the bottom of the list for states with the most uninsured women, now refusing fed millions and slashing healthcare funding. What kind of sewer is TX turning into?
Sabreen60 : I see we’re discussing the war on women. So what, now we’re suppose to close our eyes when they do whatever to us? I will admit, I didn’t see this coming. Just WOW!
Chernynkaya : If you haven’t already read this, consider it for later: ‘We Have No Choice’: One Woman’s Ordeal with Texas’ New Sonogram Law «link»
choicelady : Hey Sue – if you’re going for ‘ritas, have one for me, will ya?
kesmarn : Hope to see you back here, Sue!
SueInCa : Well gotta go may be back in a few will see……..
Chernynkaya : CL–great analogy! Exactly the same thing.
AdLib : RW women Repubs and poor rural Repubs, which makes up the majority of the GOP, all vote against their own interests in their mindless loyalty to their GOP church.
Chernynkaya : Quislings sure works, kes!
choicelady : Cher – back to the San Diego masturbator – we all knew that women on the anti-abortion lines would wind up in clinics, and they did. And often went right back out. The capacity for self deception is AWESOME!
SueInCa : agreed Cher and hey Sabreen
kesmarn : I think I called them Quislings, Cher.
Chernynkaya : Hey Sabreen!
AdLib : Hey Sabreen!
Chernynkaya : Repub women are Vichy collaborators, IMO.
choicelady : Hi sabreen!
kesmarn : Sabreen! So good to see you back. We missed you.
choicelady : kes – yes, under the guise of “religious freedom” which means YOU, the employee, have none. This is a Dominionist argument.
Sabreen60 : Hi Folks. Missed y’all.
SueInCa : I dont think Indies will vote for him
kesmarn : Ridiculous. And those two crazy AZ measures were both proposed by Republican WOMEN?!!
AdLib : Sue – Right but I mean in the GE, how can indie women vote for their rights to be taken away by Romney.
choicelady : kes – yes, the Doonesbury strip is amazing!
Chernynkaya : Kes, I did. The script in PA actually says the Dr.s should tell women that abortion causes breast cancer.
AdLib : I have to imagine that the lawsuits will be flying once any of these laws are used against women. The SCOTUS has established a citizen’s right to privacy, such laws are anti-constitutio nal and even this lousy SCOTUS can’t give employers the right to private medical information or allow states to violate a woman’s privacy.
kesmarn : Yes…”abortion s lead to tooth decay, dandruff, ingrown toenails and halitosis”…it says here. Did you see Doonesbury and the reference to the “shaming wand”?
Chernynkaya : I think that for Indies, and even some Repubs, War on Women is political suicide.
SueInCa : AL Republican women are robots not real women
AdLib : Can the GOP win on attacking and insulting women? I don’t get it. And Romney is a collaborator in that, how can women vote for him in a GE.
Chernynkaya : CL–:oops:
Chernynkaya : I did a search on JAMA and the AMA–they came out against unnecessary ultrasounds a few years ago, but only for “keepsake” ultrasounds. And what about those scripts the laws require docs read, lying to patients??
kesmarn : I’ll try to get the link, AdLib.
choicelady : kes – that’s very funny and really scary.
AdLib : Kes – That’s very funny!
choicelady : Cher – TMI!!!! We were trying to pretend we’d not noticed. Rude computer!
SueInCa : Wow funk went to NV causas and it was fun
choicelady : Did anyone hear Rachel when the comment by PBO that he wanted a more compassionate and kinder America was denounced as PROVING HE’S UNFIT TO BE PRESIDENT!!!!
Chernynkaya : Sorry–my computer just farted.
AdLib : CL – I agree, the war on most Americans should be the general theme but without going in so many directions, I think the best path is to focus on the War on Women because it is the most active and repressive and because women make up over 50% of voters.
kesmarn : I friend of my daughter’s posted a list of 14 quotations, some of them by Romney, some by Montgomery Burns of The Simpsons. Most people could not tell who said which thing!!
choicelady : funk – is there any hope of regaining the dispirited white people on SS and Medicare issues? Medicare just took ALL co-pays for basic tests etc. away – it’s fantastic for people to get all that free!
SueInCa : CL you are right it has to be a combinatiion of all those
kesmarn : Good point, Cher. The AMA ought to be speaking out on those ultrasounds. There’s NO medical reason to do those.
funksands : Sue, no. Just dispirited old white people quietly filing in to do their loveless duty for Romney
choicelady : Cher – and ACOG – the obstetricians and gynocologists. Since when do legislators practice medicine?
Chernynkaya : Not just contraception, kes. I think these forced ultrasound laws are infuriating people too. And I keep asking, where the fuck is the AMA?
AdLib : Cher – I know that’s what the polls say and conventional wisdom but if the economy stalls, will women vote for Romney and giving power to the Repubs’ war against them? I think it is now an equalizer against that.
funksands : Ad, I was disappointingly low-key. But I think that also had something to do with the fact that no one other than the Paulites had ANY enthusiasm or energy at that caucus. That fills me with hope for a low turnout. But then again, they are very enthusiastic about the Gov. race.
SueInCa : Funk furthr to AL comment did you see many baggers?
choicelady : AdLib – I think the war on women issue is huge, but I think it has to be tied to the war on everyone: unions, elders on SS and Medicare, the poor whom the private sector has abandoned, working families – the more INCLUSIVE it is that we talke about the GOP drive for embedded inequality and the Dems for freedoms for everyone, the better it plays.
kesmarn : Limbaugh has turned out to be a gift to the Democratic party. He just kept that issue front and center for days!
AdLib : Funk – I would like to think I could be as reserved as you in the same situation. With the guys you described, it seemed to be easier than sitting at a table with seething Baggers.
SueInCa : Kes and it needs to stay on the radar
Chernynkaya : AL, I know that polls still say that for most voters the economy and jobs is the #1 issue. but for pure emotional intensity, I think the war on women and the parallel issues of the RR will take over the conversation. People are inflamed. I know I am.
choicelady : funk – thank goodness for that. The Body Snatchers films all give me the creeps!
kesmarn : I think if anyone threatens women’s access to birth control, they’ve touched the third rail. There’s gonna be “consequences” !
SueInCa : I only worry about his money. It will be up to all of us to keep the issues front and center.
funksands : CLady, it was fun. I don’t know what I was expecting, maybe Donald Sutherland from Invasion of the Body Snatchers? It was less intense than that.
SueInCa : LOL BASKETBALL TO ME IS LIKE GERMAN i DON’T UNDERSTAND IT AT ALL RUNNING BACK AND FORTH ON A WOODEN FLOOR? jUST KIDDIN FUNK
AdLib : Obama has so many issues to run on, protecting Medicare from the Repub axe, taxing the 99% and preventing the Bush tax cuts to continue, funding infrastructure, addressing immigration compassionately. ..so many issues but perhaps the most powerful, especially in the election will be pro-woman vs. anti-woman. What do you think?
funksands : Kes, thanks!
kesmarn : Oh funk, I wouldn’t know a bracket from a brisket! Although…there is this site run by a couple of Episcopalian ministers that does brackets with saints battling against each other. Very funny. Lentmadness.org
choicelady : funk – did you have fun infiltrating? It looked like fun as well as really interesting.
choicelady : Sue! You have enduring and permanent brackets! Wow!
Chernynkaya : Sue–HAHAH–mine too!
SueInCa : Funk my brackets are hangin on the wall holding up shelves
choicelady : funk – my bracket is fine. How is yours?
choicelady : Oh – if it’s Kindle it freaking won’t show up! I have a blurb.
funksands : Hows everyone’s bracket looking tonight
SueInCa : I will see what I have it is on my Kindle
choicelady : Sue – look at the back cover.
Chernynkaya : I certainly hope so, AL!!!
kesmarn : Hey, funk! Loved you article on infiltrating the GOP caucus!
SueInCa : CL hell no I am almost through the complete book
choicelady : Hey funk! Lovely to have you here!
AdLib : Hey Funk!
Chernynkaya : Howdy, funk!
AdLib : This extremist Christian assault on our society and government seems to be at such a high point now…this War on Women could be their downfall.
choicelady : Sue – did you look on the back cover?
funksands : Howdy all!
Chernynkaya : I watched Rachael’s 1st segment tonite on War On Women–anybody see it?
SueInCa : CL and Leah were mentioned in a Book I am reading by Mikey Weinstein he he he
choicelady : Cher – hit the return by accident. She wrote the book “God, Guns, and Greed” that turned out to be mishandled by her pseudo publisher. She has great ties to two brilliant researchers who are looking at all this, and one of them is quietly releasing info for us all.
Chernynkaya : Oh, Sure, I’ve heard of her, CL. Thanks!
SueInCa : Bye Food
Chernynkaya : Try this Sue: «link»
choicelady : Cher – Leah Burton of “godsownparty.c om”
choicelady : AdLib – that story is not only priceless but not at all unexpected. You take a bunch of repressed pseudo Christians and all I ever think is “Look out! They’re gonna BLOW!” They never let me down.
SueInCa : Never mind Cher I watched that last week now I know I thought new
SueInCa : Cher the link did not work I got AL;s link though
Chernynkaya : CL, who is Leah?
foodchain : Cher good to see you again. And all. Helping our daughter pick up a Vizsla puppy!! We seem to be going crazy
choicelady : Cher – some of the research is coming from Leah’s folks. It’s amazing good work they are doing!
kesmarn : G’night food!Rest well!
choicelady : Oh food – so short a time. Have a good night and great weekend!
AdLib : Take care, foodchain! Have a great weekend!
Chernynkaya : Dang Food! Well it was good to “see” you.
choicelady : AdLib – yes, I have Leah and others doing it. They are amazing. What shocks me is the absence of Jeff Sharlet outing the whole mess. His second book, “C Street” shows the ties to the Uganda laws and the fact he isn’t on Rachel saying the people behind the video are part of that is troubling. Jeff is very odd about these things.
AdLib : Kony 2012 Filmmaker Arrested For Public Masturbation – One of the men behind the Kony 2012 video that went viral last week was arrested in California on Thursday night on charges of public drunkenness and masturbation, a local NBC affiliate in San Diego reports. Local police say that Jason Russell, the 33-year-old co-founder of Invisible Children, appeared to be under the influence of drugs or alcohol when he was found by officers “in his underwear” allegedly vandalizing cars and masturbating in public, NBC San Diego reports. «link»
foodchain : Well, I’m sad to go, but late night last night, early get up tomorrow. Take care all
Chernynkaya : For later, here’s the Alexandra Pelosi video. It was on Mahre.«link» .ly/FPQmlC
Chernynkaya : AL–lot’s of exposes around about the Kony people. If you Google I’m sure you’ll find info.
SueInCa : No cher we posted info on his RR connections the metldown I had not heard. I will find it
choicelady : The Lord’s Resistance Army I betcha is funded by C Street folks with whom the “death to gays” laws are attached. All a nice little diversion so we won’t notice their REAL mission.
AdLib : CL – Do you know of anyone investigating the Kony people?
Chernynkaya : I know that’s not the news Sue–it’s that he had a meltdown and was arrested. There is a video of him naked too.
choicelady : Cher – knew it! They want to deflect attention from how THEY kill Africans.
AdLib : Cher – I had to chuckle, of course they’re loons but getting arrested for that?! And they’re worried about gays and sexuality?
SueInCa : CherI think I posted background here on KONY Sally and I had alot of info they are fony
Chernynkaya : CL–they ARE behind the kill the gays laws.
choicelady : Sue and AdLib – a new path to worker ownership!
SueInCa : Cher
choicelady : Cher – we have reason to believe the folks behind the Kony video are the same people behind the “death to gays” laws in Uganda. They likely have funded Kony for years but are tossing him to the winds to prevent scrutiny of their actions.
SueInCa : CL I want to be rich and own a co I think i will go back to work for a bagger sure to catch that one
Chernynkaya : Well, you know the folks behind the vid are fundies, and support kill the gays? Today, one of them was arrested for masturbating in public and nudity–in SDiego.
kesmarn : That bumper sticker should get the car owner pulled over and arrested for hate speech.
AdLib : CL – Sounds good to me, let’s encourage employees in AZ to violate the law then take over the companies!
foodchain : waiting for quiet time to see Obama movie
SueInCa : Cher what and what is Alexandria vid
choicelady : Sue – could anything be dumber than the new AZ law letting your boss fire you if you use contraception for contraception? That’s a federal violation of HIPPA. Anyone does that the employee soon OWNS the company!
Chernynkaya : Obama’s doc was fantastic. Thump in throat–unexpect edly.
AdLib : Cher – What’s the scoop on the Kony guy?
foodchain : Nope. Still catching my breath over re-nig
AdLib : Did you see Obama’s doc?
Chernynkaya : Speaking of videos–has everyone heard what the guy who made Kony 2012 did today?
SueInCa : adlib I will post it here for you all. the usual RR are interviewed. it is a trailer
Chernynkaya : No Sue. I just watched the Alexandra Pelosi vid, and that was more than I could take.
AdLib : Sue – Who’s behind the video?
choicelady : Sue – haven’t looked yet. I will!
AdLib : FC – I like that as a catchphrase for pandering, “Cheesy grits”.
SueInCa : Did everyone see the new bagger vid? Agenda Dumbing down America
choicelady : food – that’s PERFECT! “Pandering gets you cheesy!” LOVE it!
choicelady : ADLib – I think his voting numbers show that pandering gets you nuttin’.
SueInCa : You will like what I sent tonite too
foodchain : pandering in the South created a new politcal truth: cheesy
SueInCa : I think people are smarter than that adlib
Chernynkaya : Wow, CL, your getting deluged.
choicelady : Hi Sue – LOVED your funnies today, thank you!
choicelady : Hi food!
AdLib : Seriously, does pandering like Romney did in the South help?
SueInCa : hey cl
choicelady : AdLib – I think we’re sending it to you. It’s great for the water and awful for the same. Everything is flooded including my DRIVEWAY which is flat, so figure that out.
SueInCa : Mittens Davey crockett Prez Raphael Saadiq I take Prez
foodchain : Hey Choice,
choicelady : Uh – that’s “HEY”. I’m as bad as the Rom Man!
AdLib : CL – Still dry here but the weather folks are saying 3 days of rain starting tomorrow.
choicelady : Jey back atcha, kes!
kesmarn : Hey, c’lady!
choicelady : Hey AdLib – great to see you tonight! Are you all in “sunny” LA under water yet? WE are! I think I’m getting webbed feet…
foodchain : I did like DC when I was a kid, but bears and rodents not close
Chernynkaya : Hey CL! AL–LAX is right!
AdLib : Hey CL!
choicelady : Hi everyone – caught Cher’s loxy bagelies and snorted!
kesmarn : “Kilt him a barr when he wuz only three…”
SueInCa : If I could I would eat fish all the time allergic
AdLib : Cher – More like Romney’d have LAX on his baygulls.
foodchain : shooting varmints that Davey!
SueInCa : Davey Davey Crockett king of the wild frontier
AdLib : Sue – The man has only eaten catfish for the second time! Huh?
Chernynkaya : Someone said, if he went to a Jewish fundraiser, would he have said he liked loxy on his bagelies?
kesmarn : Wish you were here. The trees are just the right height tonight!
SueInCa : It is cheese grits not cheesy he is such a goofball
AdLib : Cher – And a cheesy grits to you too!
Chernynkaya : So good to see y’all! (my Mittens imitation.)
AdLib : Haw-haw!
kesmarn : “Haw”???? I meant “How,” of course.
AdLib : Kes – Not at all, you see, anything dealing with male health or sexuality is protected by God. Laws can only be made against women in the GOP.
Chernynkaya : Hey kes–mouth full of food. Forgive my pronunciation!
foodchain : Cher!
kesmarn : Hey, Cher! Haw are you?
SueInCa : Hey Cher
AdLib : Hey Cher!
foodchain : hey Sue
Chernynkaya : Hi all–just finishing dinner as I read to catch up.
kesmarn : Hey, Sue!
AdLib : Hey Sue!
SueInCa : Hello everyone
kesmarn : And of course, you have to wonder about guys, vasectomies, morality, health care coverage and promotions????
foodchain : Kes, yes, virginity checks! I want that in the SCOTUS. What fun to fight that
AdLib : Kes – Exactly. Little difference between the Taliban’s and the GOP’s view of women.
AdLib : FC – If employers are allowed to violate your privacy, they can and will of course use it against you.
kesmarn : Virginity checks? And you thought that was only a Taliban thing!
AdLib : The Rush Act.
AdLib : Kes – Waiting for the Repub bill that allows employers to perform a full body examination of female employees.
foodchain : so presente.org sent an email that if an employer makes a judgment that it’s immoral to give birth control pills, they also can make a judgment that you are immoral for taking them. And they can fire you. What? Can they?
kesmarn : I’d vote for Trigger, food. Much smarter.
foodchain : GOP should have stuffed Reagan like Roy Rogers stuffed Trigger
kesmarn : YES! And then the boss gets to put you in the slut or cramps categories and promote you accourdingly!
foodchain : Newt does have a globular presence both in his physicalness and in his ego
AdLib : Kes – Wait till they dig up Zombie Reagan!
AdLib : Did you hear about the AZ law that’s passed one house already, that forces women to prove to their bosses why they’re using contraception?
kesmarn : Speaking of lunacy, there’s a commercial against Sherrod Brown on the teevee at the moment — starring Pat Boone!! How old do they think most voters ARE?
AdLib : Newt’s head is a Looner Module.
kesmarn : Lunatica maxima!
foodchain : that’s right-+-this mornin was a long time ao!
kesmarn : Oh,food, I really feel for that kid. I think c’lady is the one who’s close to him, but we were all trying to lend a hand last night.
AdLib : Kes – The Newt Moonologues?
foodchain : Busy week, but good. Hopoe your young friend hears you Kes
kesmarn : The pina colada monologues?
AdLib : Kes – Did you have a monologue in mind?
kesmarn : Hey, food, how’s your week been?
AdLib : Hey FC!
foodchain : howdy all
kesmarn : Hey, AdLib, I thought I might be doing a soliloquy tonight!
AdLib : They may be hanging up their coats.
AdLib : Hey Kes! Good evening to you!
kesmarn : Good Friday evening, friends! Are there 5 or 6 shy people here?
AdLib : Don’t forget to say “hi” when you arrive!
AdLib : Thanks CL!
choicelady : And a shout right back in thanks! It was great! Hope you had a super weekend, AdLib!
AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. Hope to see you then! And a shout out to Choicelady for doing a wonderful job guest hosting last week!