bito : “We’re a citizens’ think tank, a public blog open to all where real people can express real opinions on politics, news, social issues and enjoy political humor”
Chernynkaya : We love Patsy! Well, I guess this concludes a great evening of Vox Poluli. Thank you all for helping me out and have a safe and great holiday. PS–Khirad, I’ll join you in that drink now! Really.
PatsyT : Yum schnapps …
Khirad : I think now’s the time that AL usually starts kicking us out. I’m raiding the liquor cabinet one last time though.
Chernynkaya : Night KQ–thanks for stopping by!
PatsyT : I Have to say goodnight .. Love you all !!!
Khirad : Night KQ.
Chernynkaya : He never gets riled or takes offense and that makes me feel that we can really debate unemotionally.
KQuark : I’m gonna get some sleep too. Take care all.
KQuark : Exactly Khirad I like people who play devil’s advocate because it makes me think as long as they don’t get personal. I know on issues like energy I’m a devil’s advocate of a sort.
PatsyT : AD is pretty cool I like that he is curious
Chernynkaya : Take care Chris–and thanks for the help!
PatsyT : Nighty night Chris… All the Best
Khirad : Night Chris.
ChrisR266 : Good night, everyone. Have the best weekend, please.
Chernynkaya : PAtsy we will!
Khirad : I think sometimes AD just plays Devil’s Advocate to be difficult, and that it’s done in fun.
Chernynkaya : I got a scholarship to art school too from my HS and my art teacher was my idol. We stayed in touch about 20 years until she moved.
ChrisR266 : And, Cher, that’s ok by me. Once you learn how to learn, you’ve got the greatest tool of all.
PatsyT : Cher … we got to get together!!
ChrisR266 : Patsy: Even today, I heard from a student that it was one teacher who took interest, who showed them caring and provided encouragement, that motivated that student to try harder and aspire to more.
Khirad : My English teacher was a mentor to me. And my German teacher was quirky too. All my other teachers thought I was a loser but they saw past appearances. Seems to me a lot of High School teachers teach High School just cause they loved it so much the first time. I hated all those teachers.
Chernynkaya : Patsy–that sound exactly like me! Exactly!
PatsyT : Hey Bito, I hope it is not from listening to my parent have at it… but yes I love to get to the truth
Chernynkaya : Chris that’s a wonderful story. But I think I’m done even though I learn informally now all the time.
KQuark : I like he’s not rigid and intellectually honest in a debate.
bito : Patsy, I can see your love of debate. It requires research of facts to base your opinions on.
PatsyT : Khirad, the thing that got me through High School was that my Art teacher believed in me and gave me my own studio to work up my portfolio for admission into art school. Iit was a great feeling to know someone liked me.
ChrisR266 : Cher: The year I finished my dissertation and received my degree, my compatriot from the department at the ceremony was an 87 year old woman who decided 6 years before that to do what she had always wanted–go all the way. The department paid her a stipend to teach and waived her tuition, and she went all the way. Me at 27, her at 87. It was grand.
Chernynkaya : KQ he is! He knows so little but learns so fast. I’d say that to his face too!
Chernynkaya : Oh Chris, I finished in 2001. I’m retired now and too old and financially unable to go back to school. But thank god for the internet.
Khirad : Patsy those are the only places I got A’s. And it was Honors English. The only advanced placement class I was ever allowed in.
ChrisR266 : Cher: Yeah, AD was schooled a bit, y’all did good.
PatsyT : I worked to potential on Art, Music, English and Debate … sorry not math … but now I am able to help my girls see the importance of Math and Science
KQuark : Cher AD is great to debate with.
Chernynkaya : Khirad–If I never see that sentence again it’ll be too soon!
ChrisR266 : Invient: Rhetoric and Public Address.
Chernynkaya : Well, we’re mostly chatting now. No fireworks tonight although I think we educated ADonai on the FAirness Doctrine.
ChrisR266 : Ha, Khirad: I always thought that was such a compliment! They knew how GD smart you really were!
KQuark : Not yet Cher but I play my wife’s team in the first game which is always fun.
ChrisR266 : Cher: There’s going to be a hell of a shortage of profs in about 5 years. They’ll be begging you to do that graduate work and paying you to do it, too. Hang on.
invient : Chris, what is your field? Just asking out of curiosity.
KQuark : Fine but a bit tired.
Chernynkaya : KQ! Did you win your fantasy football thing?
Khirad : That was on like every report card I ever had.
Chernynkaya : Patsy–I can relate!!
Khirad : “Does not work to potential”
PatsyT : Hey KQ How are you tonight?
ChrisR266 : Patsy: Debate and Individual Events speaking is how I put my self through undergraduate school–best thing I every did for myself.
KQuark : Hi folks.
Chernynkaya : Chris wehn I get my degree in 2001 the profs told me I’d enjoy teaching college level. I wish I could have stayed and gotten a PhD. although the way CA universities are now, it’s best I didn’t. So may layoffs.
Khirad : They did something on boys in school being let down a while back. I really enjoyed it. Wish I could remember it. Not only not pushed, but the learning styles are different than for girls, which thrive with verbal/auditory lessons.
ChrisR266 : Cher: yes, it can be. I know there are programs in CC’s around the state of Ohio. There are four year programs, but they are not easy to get into (Ohio State’s, being one).
PatsyT : Cher, I was one of those that frustrated my teachers, smart, off the charts with the I.Q. tests but my family had lots of problems, so concentrating on academics was not my stronghold. I did very well in art and music and debate.
ChrisR266 : Cher: Oh, girl, indeed. That’s why I never left, LOL.
Chernynkaya : Hospitality is 2 year?
Chernynkaya : Khirad–Indeed! But as Chris pointed out, it might be too rigorous for her. I didn’t know what I wanted when I was in school either but I knew I likes school. I could go to school forever.
ChrisR266 : K: Yes, Hospitality would work. And most associate’s degree programs are pretty damned good.
ChrisR266 : Cher: Most of these programs in 4 year schools are PR degrees, and students still have to take a rigorous curriculum in writing, even if they want to go the event planning route. There might be something more directly interesting to her at CC.
Khirad : A hospitality degree could work for a few things.
ChrisR266 : You’re right, Khirad. But even with that, Boys have it harder, I think. They’re not pushed as hard by their parents, and there’s some strong research that demonstrates that the system doesn’t push them either. Still chromosomal privilege is structural.
Chernynkaya : Patsy, were you a decent student?
Chernynkaya : I think that’s true Chris, and valuable. What young person can really know what they want to do the rest of their lives. But she doesn’t enjoy the process but she loves the people–she is a people person so event planning could work. And she has a good work wthic.
Khirad : At least by this age boys know that if they didn’t get a scholarship, they’re not gonna be a pro-athlete.
ChrisR266 : Cher: aw, cripes. Thank Tyra Banks for that. Hell.
PatsyT : Cher, I liked partying in my day, I got over it, It can happen, hang in there.
Chernynkaya : The closest I came to an idea was fashion, but she didn’t seem to bite. She wants to be a model.
ChrisR266 : Cher: I do think we have moved back into a cycle of college becoming a time of exploration, a preparation for the rest of life. We’ve moved out of that horrible time when students came to college to get “a degree” and back toward a time where they’re there to figure out what they want to do. It is a very different thing.
invient : night clady
PatsyT : Cher … «link»
Khirad : Event planning! Ha. Perfect!
Chernynkaya : Chris–what a fantastic idea! I will look into it and thank you!
choicelady : ‘Night everyone!
Chernynkaya : IO wish I had raised her–she’s bright but unserious. I think she should learn a trade–she is not a student.
choicelady : Cher – one last. She should major in event planning. There are whole degree programs in putting parties and conferences etc. together. You go with the flow!
ChrisR266 : CL: love the weekend, enjoy it.
ChrisR266 : Cher: I understand, I have a few of them in classes this semester.
Chernynkaya : Cl–have a great slothful weekend!
Chernynkaya : My 20 y/o step daughter goes to Jr college and has no idea at all what she wants to do except party. I don’t know what to tell her to do.
choicelady : Cher – OK – I will stay in touch with him. It would be GREAT! And my computer is acting up. Always does when we get this far into the GREAT conversation, so I’m saying good night to all before it crashes. Happy Labor Day all!
Chernynkaya : CL–Details. We are planning this around when Funk is in town and I din’t know the date. But that sounds fascinating!
ChrisR266 : I do believe it is incumbent of us all to remind the younger generations, while we still can, that what is available for them wasn’t even conceivable for the majority of us in the 1970s and most of the 1980s. My students still can’t quite grasp that there were no varsity high school sports for girls in the 1970s and early 80s.
Khirad : There was another German town or two which made their street lamps motion sensitive. How neat is that?
choicelady : Cher – Oct. is going to be VERY dicey – I am planning on being in NYC for a UN convening Oct.10-13 then have a conference here Oct. 21-23. If you can squeeze this in somewhere other than those times… And what the HELL are the deets? God I’m getting old…
Chernynkaya : Er. “town” FFS= fat finger syndrome.
Khirad : Great insight about why there were no guilds in the Colonies CL, I never thought about it that way, just thought it never crossed the Atlantic. Now that you put it that way and I connect the two things, of course there weren’t. It’s why we had to send lumber back to England to have it assembled into furniture and such. Ridiculous stuff like that.
invient : clady, yeah my professor constantly likes to remind us that we are not the google inventors…. he is a bit of a cynic a-hole though
Chernynkaya : Col German twon, Patsy.
PatsyT : YES Cher, It’s a opportunity
choicelady : Cher – yes, the decline of parental encouragement is sad. I’d say a lot has to do with the loss of control over our own futures that has taken the hope from everyone. My own nephew never finished college – why should he? There was nothing but a grind out there for him. He went his own way, did his own thing, and now is filthy rich. Have NO real idea what he does, but it’s something in computers. But he is an exception – most kids of his peer group had college ed and may or may not have jobs. Sad.
ChrisR266 : Damn. I shouldn’t watch house hunters international on a Friday night. I wanna a beach real bad.
PatsyT : Nighty night Kes… hope Ohio is treating you well
Chernynkaya : Patsy I was thinking the same thing about the AZ contingent!
PatsyT : A German town … off the grid !!! «link»
Chernynkaya : Kes–sleep tight!
choicelady : Khirad – BETTER than unions. Guilds controlled the entire process of production, the standards of the items produced, AND the prices. It was the wrenching away of that control that led to revolutions in Europe. In the US we never did that much because we were, as a colony, forbidden to produce export goods of much quality. There were individual apprentice-journ eyman-master relationships, but they were not within guild structures.
Chernynkaya : Kirad–you schmuck! When didja get here?
PatsyT : Khirad … the Germans are making many great strides
Chernynkaya : CL–Adlib has the deets, and I told him to see if you could maybe come down in October.
choicelady : Khirad – HI!!! I am with you on the guilds! First – I believe in apprenticeship. Full out, no holds barred. Why?> Great way to learn a skill and craft. Second – no parent is meant to raise his or her own adolescent. Not natural. Seriously! Guilds also would give back control of production to the producers. Could be very cool. I’m fine with that! You are SO wise!
kesmarn : Have a great Labor Day weekend, friends!
Chernynkaya : CL–I don’t doubt you at all! But I see where these kids are not encouraged by their families and they go to third rate schools. These are bright and sweet kids! I’ll have to write about Peter one day… another 19 y/o neighbor.
invient : good night kes,
Khirad : Night, kes.
PatsyT : YOu know any AZ folks can scoot over and join
Khirad : Proto-unions one might say.
ChrisR266 : Enjoy the weekend, Kes.
PatsyT : Wooo Hooo we will make it happen !
ChrisR266 : Khirad: That’s a great idea that no corporatist will let fly now. One scary step of organizing short of Unionizing…
kesmarn : G’night, funk! Hello, Khirad! And I must say good night myself. Almost 1 a.m. here! But a final note of agreement with c’lady. I have known brilliant tradesmen and women. And they were happy, too. Doing meaningful work.
choicelady : Cher and funk and Patsy – if there’s a Planet Party, just let me know and I’ll try to get down there!
Chernynkaya : Excellent, PAtsy!
Khirad : Let’s bring back the Guilds.
choicelady : kes – I so agree. The smartest people I know are blue collar ones, many now skilled from on the job learning. There is a GREAT saying (I forget from whom) “The manager’s brains lie under the workman’s cap”. That was totally what I learned from the men – and women – who worked in steel mills, auto factories, machine shops, etc. LORD they were smart – and management depended on their smarts, too! I loved learning how much people valued their skills and knowledge – and many of the older ones ALSO had a pretty good HS education, too. They were NOT stupid. They were smart in a different way.
ChrisR266 : Hi Khirad: We agree about this.
Chernynkaya : Chris–that is so true about voc ed! Well said!
PatsyT : Cher I am all in, that has to happen!
Chernynkaya : Funk–we are going to try to get togther–hope Patsy can join and dare I say–CL??
Khirad : In Germany’s school system they have university and trade schools, wherein there still exists a sort of apprenticeship kind of system. I think saying university is for everyone is shortsighted for a society.
ChrisR266 : Choice: you and I are in total agreement about this issue.
kesmarn : Wow…Chris! I didn’t know that only 1:20 districts were offering Vo-Ed! That’s shocking. And yes, then the scammers move in.
PatsyT : Kes that is noble and then some
choicelady : Cher – I do know that some parts of immigrant communities feel beaten down and thus cast out of the system. Why wouldn’t they be? But this survey was of teens who lived in pretty normal Latino communities – not wealthy at ALL – but who had been given a chance. That’s true of ALL the people with whom I work – they were gien encouragement, and they flourished. Today at the Capitol the “best and the brightest” are ofen Latino/Latina, Black and Asian young people whose minds are just AWESOME. The dullards tend to be white. From Orange County. I am NOT making this up.
ChrisR266 : Good to interact with you, Funk. Stay cool, and take good care of you and the family.
ChrisR266 : Kes: I absolutely DO have the feeling that not everyone should go to college. But you know what happened? School districts around the country started cutting those programs that would help students find their ways into trades and crafts in the early part of this decade. By the time we hit 2005, 1 out of 20 school districts were still offering vocational ed options. What else were these kids to do but take out thousands of dollars of loans and go to college, community or 4 year? That’s exactly what happened, and the profit mongerers caught wind and started robbing these kids blind.
PatsyT : Think of all the costly issues that would solve…..
kesmarn : I agree invient. If folks want that degree, they should be able to get it without going bankrupt. But I don’t think people should be pressured or made to feel inferior because they’d rather farm or repair trucks. That’s noble labor too.
Chernynkaya : One of my biggest blessings in life–in my whole life–has been my teachers. I have had spectacular teachers. I went to 7 elementary schools and then one jr high and two HS. I went to Jr college and then university and studied in various classes as an adult. All my teachers were amazing. A true blessing in my life.
PatsyT : Amen invient!
invient : Kes, I would say that anyone who wants an college education should be able to get one, that the initial investment by society is worth it, and it should be provided for free…
choicelady : Chris – I really value high level voc ed. I think anyone who sneers at that is in great error. I worked at a couple of junior colleges that had focused programs and programs for more college-bound people, and they were GREAT. I dislike tracking – I think it’s racist too often – but programs HAVE to exist for those whose passion and interest is not book learning but working DOING something they really want to do. We’ve let that entire population down which is why they are in debt up to their necks at these for-profit schools – DeVry, Phoenix, etc.
funksands : Gotta go. After Labor Day my life gets way crazy at work for a couple of months. So I think I’m going to throw up a post about the future of our workforce this weekend and then vanish for a while. Remember, any of you SoCals, I am down in LA the first week of October…..
Chernynkaya : CL–Northridge– great school!
funksands : Thanks Chris, that means a lot.
kesmarn : And Chris, don’t you have the feeling that not everyone really should go to college. The world needs good electricians. And they can be well-informed citizens too.
Chernynkaya : C’L I think that’s so uplifting. I don’t believe that immigrants don’t want an education, but I live among Mexicans whom I also love and admire. I can tell you that for a certain segment–and I have no data about how large–education is seen as a nicety, not an urgency. This maybe class issue, or a regional issue or a poverty issue. But none of the many kids and grandkids around here are pushed the way say an Chinese immigrant is–I know those too. I think it’s an issue to be confronted honestly and openly.
ChrisR266 : Funk, you know I regard your facility with words highly.
ChrisR266 : Choice: Thanks for sharing that. It doesn’t surprise me, because access for that population is so difficult and by effect (I think) more valued in effect. They know it’s the ticket. But mainstream cultural messages in the 90s through today have always made higher education sound like it was something everyone should do, kind of like going to prom. When you implicitly align its import with something really nominal, people tend to attitudinally adjust to that reality. Just my two cents.
kesmarn : Yes, c’lady, it’s so clear that you were taught — not only to write — but to THINK.
PatsyT : invient, kudos to you for the calc.
funksands : You are both too kind and way too generous. But thanks.
choicelady : funk – writing just takes practice, and frankly I can’t see anything wrong with what you do here. Try listening to yourself on tape then writing (paraphrasing) what you said. It needs to get done again and again. Writers are not all intuitively good – practice, practice, practice. You do GREAT here.
kesmarn : funk, I think you’re a very fine writer!
invient : When I entered calc I in college, I can say I was unprepared… I remember having to learn properties of functions that were not taught to me in HS…
PatsyT : Geeezz Funk I think you are mighty fine with the writing
kesmarn : Yes, Chris. And a lot of them went to Catholic U in DC or Notre Dame in South Bend in the summers, too, and hung out with the rock stars of whatever field they were in. Amazing women.
choicelady : Chris and kes – my teachers were all public school teachers, and I got a great education in the 60s. Cher – which Cal State? I’m Dominguez Hills-BA and LA-Masters. Which one – Long Beach?
funksands : I fake it. I can’t write worth a damn and it drives me crazy. I think I have a way with words, but I can’t construct something coherent if I tried. I write like I talk. I may go back to school to re-learn.
kesmarn : Yes, Cher. Writing skills are underemphasized, as is “hard” math. In 5th grade science, they are blowing bubbles in the local system. With no scientific theory attached!
choicelady : Chris and Cher and kes in particular – I went to a presentation of a poll by Latinas about young Latinas on education. Their aspirations were OFF THE CHARTS. They all wanted a good education, valued it for itself AND its contribution to a better life. This flies in the face of other polls that “show” immigrants don’t value education. BS! They often cannot GET a good education and learn to settle, but they WANT what we all have and want not to be victims of systems, and that means you have to be smart. It was VERY heartening to hear.
ChrisR266 : Kes: Yeah. They taught, then went to BGSU, Toledo and OSU to take classes during the summer. They were the Jedi of catholic educators. Still are.
Chernynkaya : Funk–the very phrase “sorely lacking” belies your claim!
funksands : Cher, that was something sorely lacking in my education. Writing skillz
kesmarn : Chris! I had Sisters of Notre Dame, too. They were freaking brilliant!
Chernynkaya : Yes, Kes. I went to get a degree at age 50 at Cal State. I was one of the few who could write a coherent sentence.
ChrisR266 : Funk: Glad you’re here.
ChrisR266 : Cher: I do understand what you are saying and where you’re coming from. I had eight years in the 60s with the Sisters of Notre Dame–every freaking one of them had Ph.D.s. But I do recall that even in that environment there were the recalcitrants, the resistors who had parents who didn’t give a rat’s ass how they did in school or whether they were really learning anything. It may be that there were just not as many indifferent parents then, because education was valued differently by most of our parents.
choicelady : Cher – I’m with you every inch of the way. There is NO incompatiblity between understanding basics well and respecting cultural and racial diversity AND the contributions those have made to the core values and the growth of the nation. Good teachers know that – bad teachers don’t care. Corporations don’t WANT people to know that. I learned phonics to read, tables to add, subtract, multiply, divide – to do away with that and all the other basics is just leaving kids ill prepared to be active citizens. Back to – corporations don’t WANT that.
kesmarn : Cher, the public schools are troubled. My son teaches college math and fewer than half of the kids from the public schools can function in college without remediation.
Chernynkaya : The Pauls are NOT true Libertarians–ca n’t be if you restrict a woman’s right to choose.
funksands : Overworked, under-appreciate d and fabulous. Just like always. Thanks for asking nice lady.
kesmarn : c’lady, I agree with your take on the Pauls, pere et fils. Hard righties.
Chernynkaya : Chris and Cl– I used to be an Ed. major my first round of college. I remember how important I used to think the salad bowl model was–and still do. I guess what I am promoting is more back to basics and this has a LOT to do with the role families and society as a whole play in education. In my day (said the old fogey) we feared teachers to a degree–respecte d them as authorities. The 60’s changed that and there were some unintended consequences I think. In any case, my step daughters are getting a MUCH poorer education than I had in public schools.
ChrisR266 : Funk! how are you sir?
PatsyT : Nighty Night ADONAI
funksands : Chris..chris…c hris
choicelady : ‘Night AD!
ChrisR266 : Golden slumbers, AD.
ADONAI : Well,don’t get me wrong. I like stuff. But if someone came and took it, I wouldn’t be sad. I’ve been without before. Night folks!
choicelady : kes – but he’s from Kentucky. They are just odd. He’s also a closet dominionist. That is why he scares me. He and his father are MUCH more ultra right than really libertarian. They are indeed scary people.
ChrisR266 : Patsy: Yes, you are correct. The eighties were so full of monumental shifts we may never get to the end of it all.
PatsyT : Love your open mind ADONAI !
kesmarn : I think there’s a reason that Rand Paul guy got elected and it’s making me nervous….
funksands : Adonai is a nihilist with a heart of gold.
ADONAI : I bookmarked it Patsy. i will watch it
choicelady : AD – OK – you’re an anarchist. We might have a lot in common. But I am a social anarchist. Big difference.
PatsyT : Check it out ADONAI Please.. latter if needed .. Regan Abolished the fairness Doctrine ……. I Like the Kennedy take on the fairness doctrine «link»
choicelady : kes – you know what helped me get real about the Constitution? I got one of those laminated versions in racks at bookstores – seeing it all laid OUT made it a LOT more clear. I can’t explain why.
ADONAI : choice, Libertarian? I have been accused of that before. But I don’t believe in property. The fact it isn’t in the Constitution make me smile. I just don;t believe in telling people what to do.
ChrisR266 : Yep.
kesmarn : The little crawler is back.
kesmarn : c’lady — you knowz yor constitution!
ChrisR266 : See, once you let google come to the party, you just can’t keep the little lush out.
choicelady : AD – look at my post before you go about private property! It will give you nightmares. But sleep well, friend. Sweet dreams.
Chernynkaya : Peace, AD–thanks for joining!
funksands : Later Adonai.
choicelady : AD – you are a little libertarian at heart, aren’t you? Before you go overboard, do look hard at the Constitution – there is NO defense of private property at ALL. There are two points about just compensation in eminent domain (5th Amendment) and unjust seizures (4th Amendment) but nothing at ALL – not one freaking WORD – about the RIGHT to private property. Case law? Up the wazoo. But not in the constitution.
ChrisR266 : Have a great weekend, Adonai.
kesmarn : Don’t go to sleep listening to AM radio, AD. It’ll warp your brain!
invient : Later AD
ChrisR266 : But both the FD and equal time were really co-opted by the time big politics money and cable hit the scene in the late 70s. It is really the private ownership of media outlets that perverted both phenomenon.
ADONAI : Well kids, it’s past my bedtime. I know, it’s sad. But we knew this time would come. Know that you live on in my thoughts. My terrible, twisted thoughts. Good night folks! Peace be with you
Chernynkaya : CL–I knew you knew ALEC! Also as you mentioned, the De Vos family.
choicelady : funk – well yes. Well put! Sneeze guards indeed!
kesmarn : Right Cher. So a bunch of liars on FOX who were pretending to deliver news would have had to allow the opposing POV to speak on FOX in the “old days” of fairness. Now they can spew uninterrupted and still claim it’s impartial.
ADONAI : O.K. I get it now. I guess that’s fair. The audience probably doesn’t give two shits about the rebuttal but I guess it’s good for getting the whole picture. I just don’t like the idea of telling them what to run.
funksands : What we need is a sneeze guard for the salad bar.
choicelady : AD – yes, campaign commercials, interviews on news programs, stuff like that. That’s what it was. It never made networks put on SHOWS, only candidate information equally.
ChrisR266 : Choice and Cher: That’s why neither the melting pot or the salad bar are now considered preferentially when teaching about culture.
PatsyT : I could say the same for FOX They give that crap away on basic cable and of course free to commercial establishments so you can see it in your local Jiffy Lube for free!
invient : ALEC is the initiative to basically to pass laws in state governments that favor right wing agendas… they literally write the legislation and get it passed, or buy the supreme court seats and then start a litigation process that leads to said supreme court ruling in their favor… They accused this one judge of corruption by obtaining funds from one of his wealthy friends, but it was total bull… they guy got elected but was dragged through the mud.
choicelady : Cher – OH! ALEC!!!! I’m looking for some educational acronym and forgot that!!!
Chernynkaya : AD, the Fairness Doctrine never forced stations to program anything. But if they had an editorial on the news, or a guest on a news (not a talk ) show who had a POV, they were required to give 60 seconds for opposing POV.
choicelady : Cher – I think one can have a balance between the melting pot AND the salad bar. There are common historical, economic, political things we all should KNOW. The smartest and best people I lobby with are children of immigrants, people of color who have mastered the system AND kept their identity! I LOVE them – they have fire in the belly and get stuff DONE all the while totally in charge of how the system WORKS.
ADONAI : choice, I don’t get what you’re saying? Do yo mean campaign commercials and things like that? Cause I could go for that.
ADONAI : I had world civ and civics and all kinds of good stuff. Loved world civ. passed with straight As bitches!
choicelady : AD – it’s not forcing conservative stations to play liberal programs, it’s to assure that news programs and public affairs programs MUST give candidates equal time. It’s not demanding that (what’s the big owner?) has to give Randi Rhodes her own show. Wrong issue. It’s about civic responsibility around elections.
kesmarn : AD Clear Channel give away shit like Limbaugh for FREE. They could care less about making money.. Their goal is so indoctrinate. The ads are just for crap that Limbaugh has an interest in peddling.
Chernynkaya : CL OMG ALEC? You know ALEC: «link»
choicelady : Patsy – this is almost entirely AdLib’s doing – HOPE. We are working with Common Cause and some other groups to see if it’s “ballot worthy”. We will explain more. I think it’s really up to AdLib to “tell all” since it’s his brain child.
Chernynkaya : CL– I meant that everyone got civics, but the very curriculum was a unifying force. One can argue that it was stifling, or nationalistic. But like the draft army it also made us a melting pot. When I was in HS that was disparaged and the idea of a Salad BAr was more popular.
kesmarn : Is that the sleazy outfit that writes rotten legislation for lawmakers too lazy to do their own dirty work?
ADONAI : choice, If we’re just talking about taxpayer funded outlets, then I agree. But most conservative radio is on networks. Networks that sell commercials to make money. It’s not “fair” to force a loss on them with liberal radio.
choicelady : Cher – I forget – what is ALEC?
kesmarn : They need to be just smart enough to work the register at Taco Bell or change oil at Jiffy-Stop. No smarter.
choicelady : AD – why is equal time stupid? If you have candidates on the airwaves that are taxpayer supported, then yes every candidate SHOULD get access. No one asks it for cable.
PatsyT : Love that Idea Choice HOPE !!! Love it!
choicelady : kes – I agree. It’s no secret that the powers that be prefer dumb people. The demise of civics and real history or economics, all of which I had in High School began after the 60s – we want dumb people. Look. It WORKS.
Chernynkaya : Kes yes–ALEC has been systematically ruining public education deliberately.
ChrisR266 : Short break: don’t say anything important till I get back! LOL.
ADONAI : They can’t compete with conservative radio. Forcing their way in is kinda douchey.
kesmarn : c’lady, I think there’s a reason they aren’t taught Civics. An informed citizen asks questions, knows how things are SUPPOSED to work…
PatsyT : They only way they can get ahead is NOT on a level playing field.
choicelady : AD – it mostly pertained to networks which get free air time. Cable is different. Radio that is personality driven would also not. But news? Yes indeedy.
ChrisR266 : Ad: Yes. And it still is. Now they call it “rebuttal”
ADONAI : Oh. O.K. Well, Equal Time was stupid.
ChrisR266 : Kes: exactly!
ChrisR266 : AD: that was equal time.
choicelady : Cher – now even native born kids get no Civics, have no sense of “nation”. But if there skin is clear and their hair is nice – self-esteem.
kesmarn : Yes, Chris, when Biden and Palin were treated as “equals” in their debate, it felt like we were “through the looking glass.”
ADONAI : Fairness doctrine? Is that the stupid thing where radio stations HAD to play liberal radio if they played conservative radio even if the liberal radio lost money?
choicelady : funk – THAT does not surprise me! But there is a big difference between self esteem and self respect, and we’ve failed to teach that the latter is more important and gained with accomplishment NOT just false pride.
ChrisR266 : Patsy and Kes: Yes, I think the demise of the Fairness doctrine and the perversion of equal time has had an impact.
ADONAI : School doesn’t need to be stricter or harder. Just better.
funksands : Bingo Patsy. He oozes it.
PatsyT : funksands … so is Perry … #1 in self esteem … nothing else
choicelady : Patsy – you make a REALLY good point! How did we get to the place where the fairness doctrine is BAD? We need to hear every view. We now get what money can buy. AdLib and I are working on a possible answer – we will let you know if we can do something about Honest and Open Political Elections (HOPE). Still in the draft stages…
Chernynkaya : Patsy schools 50 years ago were much stricter and harder. I remember. And I see the difference now with my step daughters. Also, they were a homogenizing force for good or ill. Immigrants came, learned English, learned Civics, learned to be one country.
kesmarn : Yes, funk. They’ve got the self-esteem nailed.
ChrisR266 : AD is right about the kids today. They’re not stupid. In fact, they’re better prepared in some knowledge sets than we were. But, when education shifts perceptually from a privilege to a “right” as it has for many middle class families, the urgency–need we had and fight we harbored–to pursue it with vigor changes very much.
ADONAI : choice, there are many kids out there like that. Just because they can’t perform in our system or lack “curiosity” is on us.
funksands : What was it that I saw recently? American kids are number 1 in one category world-wide: Self-esteem
kesmarn : What’s her educational background, c’lady? Public school? PRivate?
PatsyT : Would we have half of this shit right now if we had the fairness doctrine?
choicelady : AD – I agree about standardized testing. But I do NOT think our kids are all that smart. Too many are lazy and lack curiosity about ANYTHING. I just got a new intern who will start in Jan. She’s GREAT – one of the most curious minds I’ve run into in many a year. Only 17 and smart as anything. Knows she doesn’t know stuff so wants to find OUT. I love her!
PatsyT : Yep Kes me too …
ADONAI : Good lord. Are we really at that point? Let’s do better than South Korea? A country the size of Jersey.
kesmarn : How I miss the fairness doctrine, Patsy.
Chernynkaya : invient then a Republican in office is a given if you are correct.
PatsyT : Was anyone better informed then? Or was it the fairness doctrine that saved us from complete ignorance?
invient : I would also like to see compensation for teachers the same as in South Korea, where teachers are actually paid a living wage and are truly valued members of society.
ChrisR266 : AD: That’s better.
ADONAI : My bad Chris. do you care for the Ferengi?
ADONAI : Kids aren’t stupid. they’re actually pretty smart. Standardized testing is no way to gauge our country’s intelligence. The current education system fails our kids. If they’re ignorant, it’s our fault.
ChrisR266 : AD: DO NOT go on insulting the Borg. Sheesh.
funksands : Bad link Cher, I’ll try to find it on the planet
PatsyT : Well what was it like for schools 50 years ago?
kesmarn : Michelle should come to Ohio in her stilettos during an ice storm and see how that gravity thingy works.
Chernynkaya : «link»
choicelady : Shhhh everyone – Google’s back. Hide the gin!
invient : Cher, I think the average voter thinks of politics and economics in the short term… i.e. they vote for the other party if their situation is negative, and for the party in power if it is good
Chernynkaya : OOPS bad link–hold on a sec…
funksands : Chris, if we don’t fight it we all end up Reavers.
choicelady : kes – Michelle is in for a rude awakening about that gravity thingy…
Chernynkaya : Funk–please read my link–I think it refutes that.
ADONAI : Resistance is futile
choicelady : Cher – it’s a wise woman who understands she is NOT the norm. It is very difficult to ‘read’ these voters and the up and down polls.
funksands : Choice, it was a recent study that I saw, I’ll try to find it. It was an eye-opener
Chernynkaya : CL I tend to agree. But I have learned that the polls are all over the place–one day they say one thing and the next refute it. And I learned that I am NOT representative of the average voter. I am out of step with the electorate and they seem incomprehensible to me–and bipolar. So at this point I honestly don’t know what will happen.
ChrisR266 : Ad: I will not succumb to the sucking, howling sound…
choicelady : funk – I find it hard to believe that our schools are that good even with the bottom 10% out. So many middle class kids are just ignorant! They see no premium in education at all.
ADONAI : I use to know the capitol of every country on Earth. fat lot of good that did me.
kesmarn : Michelle probably believes she’s immune from gravity anyway. She’s special.
funksands : Guess we should stop counting them or start caring about them.
choicelady : kes – I’m thinking even Michelle wouldn’t fall for that job – gravity tester.
funksands : Cher, did you know that if you take out the most-poverty striken kids, just the bottom 10% that our schools are the 3rd best in the world, behind Finland?
ChrisR266 : Patsy: yes.
ADONAI : Oh well. nothing worth knowing is learned in a classroom anyways.
choicelady : Chris – I think you are destabilizing the Bell Curve – your students LEARN things! You may NOT be typical!
PatsyT : Chris the experience in academia is much different then the perception of the culture of the U.S.
kesmarn : Yes, c’lady. I think we could say gravity is a theory, too. maybe a few of them would volunteer to test it?
Chernynkaya : I posted this today on DP–kinda long but show how poorly we’re doing on education:http:/ /www.thedailybea st.com/newsweek/ 2011/08/28/why-c an-t-u-s-student s-compete-with-t he-rest-of-the-w orld.html
choicelady : Cher – I do think fear has a big role in this, but I think they will FEAR the fundies! They ALL want to end Social Security, Medicare – look at the GOP Town Halls – HUGE crowds calling them out on those things! One of ’em even arrested DEMS who dared to question him. Old ladies with walkers! That is going to get more and more visibility for Obama as the adult, the steady hand on the helm.
funksands : Not one in three Americans, apparently: that’s the proportion that said in a 2008 First Amendment Center poll that the constitutional right to freedom of religion was never meant to apply to groups most folks think are extreme or fringe
ChrisR266 : Patsy: should I hook Perry up with Google, they could go bar crawling…
kesmarn : Chris, as funk said, our colleges are wonderful. What the hell happened to the rest of the citizens, though?
funksands : Number 11 is the scariest.
ADONAI : I run into number 7 a lot. Peopel who think Christianity is older than Judaism. And people who think it’s older than Hinduism. Dumb.
ChrisR266 : You’re kidding, right, Funk? Hi ya,
funksands : Our colleges are great, the envy of the world.
kesmarn : True, true Patsy.
choicelady : kes – I still can’t believe people think evolution is “just a theory”. I think it’s because we use “theory” when WE mean “I have a hunch”.
ChrisR266 : Kes: I have exchange students from Belgium and England in classes this semester. They love being in U.S. College classrooms, and do not understand how all the messages they get is how stupid we are on this side of the Atlantic.
funksands : Ta-da
PatsyT : Kes, If he hangs with the bohener … he might be persuaded
ADONAI : good lord
funksands : Kes, I hear meth is good for your hair and your manly squint.
ADONAI : Now, if we’re just talking Perry winning the primaries, I can see that. But he’ll fail miserably in the general election.
funksands : Adonai: «link»
kesmarn : Patsy, that’s true! If Perry doesn’t smoke, do you think we could persuade him to start?
Chernynkaya : Let me play Devil’s advocate on Perry’s nom. The BAggers vote. Indies don’t although Mitt is still ahead marginally. Perry seems to be raising money. But most of all, I still think Bubba got it right when he said, “When people are sacred they prefer wrong and strong over right and weak.”
ADONAI : No they don’t. that’s retarded. Really? 20%?
PatsyT : I believe you funksands
funksands : 20% of Americans think the sun revolves around the earth. I shit you not.
ADONAI : Yes. Yes you did
kesmarn : Cher, the other day I read that 36% of the population does not believe in evolution. What must people in Europe think of us?
ChrisR266 : LMAO, ok AD, I lit the neon sign for that one, didn’t I?
PatsyT : I think Perry is a few decades late … He would have made the perfect Marlboro Man
ADONAI : Ohio does suck
ADONAI : Denial is my choice.
ChrisR266 : Bwwwahahaaha, Cher.
Chernynkaya : That’s what I’m talking about. How many people actually deny climate change? Can there really be a large segment that stupid or in denial. Oh wait.. Seriously, I doubt it.
kesmarn : YES…everybody stay away from Ohio. Nothing here to like. Move along. Just fertile farm land and access to water…
ChrisR266 : Thanks, Kes. At this stage of the game, I have the utmost confidence Perry will talk himself out of the nomination with absolutely no help from anyone.
PatsyT : Adonai, I hear that from my kids all the time… they hate the local commercials
ADONAI : The topics are can Perry do it and why does Obama’s PR team suck so much
ChrisR266 : AD: Good advice, just so they don’t come and crowd up Ohio.
kesmarn : I joined late, Chris. The talk was about Perry’s chances of being the nominee when I got here.
ADONAI : An iceberg the size of Manhattan broke off from the Greenland shelf and just melted. I advise people to move inland.
Chernynkaya : HOf Hut is alive and well here in Bixby Knolls! we go every weekend because they have an awesome bar in the back that looks totally unlike the coffee shop. $5 dollar drinks and a great appetizer platter and WE lower the median age when we’re there.
ChrisR266 : So, sorry I’m not into catch up reading–what we discussing this evening?
choicelady : Cher – I do know Hof’s Hut is still a chain. Not the same. But the Park Pantry is still there! They had the best BLTs ever – made their own bread. WOW.
ChrisR266 : AD: Indeed. The climate is ‘a changing, yep.
Sabreen60 : Hello Patsy !
ADONAI : I hate local commercials. But I think that is why I love them.
choicelady : Hey Patsy!
choicelady : Cher – it was cruddy middle class when I lived there. I LOVED it. I saw it after 20 years away – it IS very chi chi now. Wasn’t then. It was funky. And great, good fun. I miss Hamburger Henry’s! And Hof’s Hut – all gone!
ADONAI : Chris, August was weird here. Suppose to be the hottest month but it was all mid 80’s the whole month. And now this mini heat wave.
ChrisR266 : Evening, Patsy.
kesmarn : Hey, Patsy!!!!!!
invient : Hey Patsy
ChrisR266 : AD: We had that stretch in the beginning of August that was low 90s for 9 or 10 days straight, but today felt especially brutal.
ADONAI : Hello Patsy!
Chernynkaya : Yay! Patsy!
choicelady : Chris – well then, I’m glad Google’s gone. Glad YOU are here. Sorry it’s so freaking hot and the utilities are eating your pocketbook alive!
kesmarn : OH! I just now caught it. “Mutual Admiration Society” too funny! Like Lucy and Ethel and “Friendship”!
PatsyT : Hi Planet folks I am going to try to read a bit and catch up…
Chernynkaya : CL-Belmont Heights! So chic!
Chernynkaya : No Kes–I meant the video I posted for you. Take a peek later.
ChrisR266 : Choice: google would’ve showed his ass sooner or later. He just doesn’t know how to behave civil. After a few drinks, he gets very unruly.
choicelady : Cher – that’s what I LOVED about Long Beach. Lived in Belmont Heights – almost always cool and wonderful. LOVE the fog when it comes!
kesmarn : c’lady, it’s been quite a summer up here. Electric company is loving every minute of it!
ADONAI : Hottest day in September ever
ADONAI : 93 in Kentucky today. 92 tomorrow
choicelady : Chris – I think Google got offended and left. Sorry!
Chernynkaya : LAat night it was so cool here in Long Beach CA i had to get the heavy blanket!
ChrisR266 : Choice: google’s a whore for the liquor. Make it light.
choicelady : kes and Chris – OMG – I never heard of temps that HIGH in Ohio!!! That’s horrid especially with your humidity! WE were not that hot today – and it’s dry. I’m so sorry!
kesmarn : Cher, I saw your comment and wrote one back. Thanks so much!
ADONAI : 28 kilobytes a second mofos!
kesmarn : Oh God, Chris. Today the heat index was 105 and humid. And kids were trying to play football tonight…
ChrisR266 : Adonai: I miss my netscape very much.
choicelady : Chris – should we provide something soft then for Google? Does he party hearty if given the wrong thing?
ChrisR266 : Hi Kes: it’s 90 some freaking degrees here in Columbus. What is it on the north coast?
Chernynkaya : Oh, and kes–did you see my reply to your comment on your excellent post today?
kesmarn : Yes, Cher…on the false jobs crisis, you mean?
choicelady : Cher – I know unemployement is high, but it’s not a crisis mode the way 9/11 or hurricanes are. It’s almost familiar. People are finding alternatives. It’s steady, not crisis. That’s what I mean. Perry et al. cannot propose one meaningful thing – oh, really? MORE tax cuts for corporations that already pay NOTHING? Not working as a message anymore.
ADONAI : I remember going to Excite on my Netscape browser
ChrisR266 : Evening, Cher!
Chernynkaya : Kes– we said the same thing again!
ChrisR266 : Hi Choice: Me and Google go way back. I remember when he was just a beta. Be careful what you offer him to drink.
ADONAI : Good as can be expected my friend.
kesmarn : Hey, Chris! Hey, Google/
ADONAI : I;m with you on that choice. I think that’s slowly going by the wayside too. People are starting to care.
invient : I’d rather kick google out!
ChrisR266 : Evening, Adonai. Hope you are well.
Chernynkaya : Chris–good to see you!
Chernynkaya : Cl I don’t think we need a terror attack at all. I think many many people are already freaked because of the economy and because f the dysfunctional DC. The Right has done what it set out to do–destroy confidence in govt–without an attack.
choicelady : Chris! Hi! We didn’t know you KNEW Google! Have him in, we’ll buy him a drink!
kesmarn : The “unemployment crisis” is cooked up, too. There’s plenty of money and plenty of work to do, but the right want these numbers to continue to look bad, so they’re holding out on hiring until they get ther way.
ADONAI : Hello chris!
ChrisR266 : Hi all. Google wanted to come so I brought ’em along.
ADONAI : Many people vote on policy. I believe that many times that policy is a sham or poorly explained.
choicelady : AD – I don’t think that Americans are as easily fooled as they were. Look at how LITTLE impact the Koch brothers’ ads are having in Ohio about voting against the union busting bill. The polls are steady. People are most overwhelmed by ads when there is no community – and labor in the midwest HAS community. CA – much move vulnerable since we are all pretty isolated one from the other.
ADONAI : I;m sorry choice but I own the copyright to that story
Chernynkaya : So you’re saying they vote on policy, AD?
choicelady : Cher – I think both exist, but emotion I think overwhelms us in crises and policy in calm. If things are calm – even if they are bad – reason will prevail. I fear very much having a staged assault on the US cooked up by Blackwater and executed by fake Muslims just to get Perry elected. I REALLY fear that!
kesmarn : Then Perry’s in good shape. Nobody lies like he does.
Chernynkaya : People think Perry is Bush on steroids, but he’s more like Cheney on steroids to me.
ADONAI : People vote on Party lines. People outside the parties vote for whichever commercial told the most lies.
kesmarn : I def missed Bush’s charm. Where was it?
Chernynkaya : I got a tingle up my leg, Kes.
invient : except he is an idiot..
choicelady : Cher – I think most of that refers to pop culture, but yeah, once a segment believes something when there is NOT an alternative, it can tip the nation. The difference here is that Dominionism HAS alternatives and they are larger. So no, I don’t think they can tip the nation if it’s based simply on their beliefs. But they still have control of lots of sections of our nation. THAT is scary.
ADONAI : Perry’s not Bush. He has none of Bush’s idiot charm.
Chernynkaya : I think the bigger question is do people vote based on policy or emotion? Or because of something else?
kesmarn : Oh, and howdy, Google!
kesmarn : No, seriously, AD, he doesn’t just just appeal to fundies. He appeals to people who love BS-slinging, tough talking cowboys who strut and swagger.
ADONAI : Country was a lot more churchy a hundred year ago.
choicelady : AD – upon THAT I totally agree. His Dominionism just will NOT prevail I think.
Chernynkaya : CL a while ago you said you read something about how only 10% of the country could change it. I pooh-poohed you. I may have been wrong.
ADONAI : I gotta go with channel cause I have no witty remark involving those letters
choicelady : Cher – I think it’s dangerous to say never. Perry on his own terms, nope. But who KNOWS what chaos may beset us that is planned to undermine America so that we once again respond with fear and look to the guy who claims he’ll make us safe. I never count these people OUT. And I fear even MORE one of them who looks responsible and gets in in 2016. Shudder.
invient : the channel?
ADONAI : Really? This is a Christian country? Do you get AMC?
Chernynkaya : No, AD. But neither did temperance and prohibition passed.
invient : Perry has no chance because there are too many parallels between him and Bush… and Bush is still a bad taste for independents.
ADONAI : I can do that!
kesmarn : Yes.
ADONAI : Perry has no chance. Look at this country. Does ti scream Christian fundamentalist to you?
choicelady : AD – how is it we managed to come around to Charlie’s Angels again? Very odd. Well – it’s a full moon.
kesmarn : It just occurs to me that this would be just a GREAT time for Google to crawl the site…. not/
Chernynkaya : No AD–be Charlie!
ADONAI : And I’ll be Bosley
choicelady : WEll I hope the time never comes when my other plan – running to Canada – ever has to come to pass.
Chernynkaya : But are we agreed that Rick Perry has no chance? Are we whistling past the graveyard?
kesmarn : I meant WE can be the chick militia.
ADONAI : Hooray!!!!
choicelady : AD – I know, and we love you, weird sense of humor and all.
kesmarn : Maybe you gals can show me the ropes…er, bullets..whateve r. She can be the lefty chick militia.
ADONAI : I know but I thought it was funny
Chernynkaya : Oh, I am anathema to the Witnesses. All I have to tell them is that I am a Jew and they skedaddle.
choicelady : AD – I believe the word we used was “RESPONSIBLE” gun ownership. Blasting already blasted people is not kind.
Chernynkaya : CL–I can’t think of anything more fun!! HEHEHE!
ADONAI : “honey! There are some Jehovah’s witnesses at the door!” “Get my gun.”
choicelady : Cher – I’m a good shot, too! Whoda thunk a WASP from the burbs would be Annie Oakley. We’ll have to get together at the range someday!
Chernynkaya : Thanks, CL!
kesmarn : I hear you c’lady. I will say that there have been a few moments when knowing that someone in the house (not me) had a Glock and knew how to use it actually calmed me down. That’s kinda sad, isn’t it?
Chernynkaya : I happen to be a crack shot. Very rare for a city woman of my jewishness.
ADONAI : Well, there are some non lethal guns fixing to come to market.
choicelady : It’s Margaret Atwood, and I can’t read her stuff – it’s too scary!
Chernynkaya : Invient, Margaret (last name I forget–the author) has written so many books that are coming true–or could.
choicelady : kes – my friend who infiltrated the Christian Identity and other groups lives in hiding and has guns. I was visiting one night when we heard really creepy stuff in the woods. I was GLAD she had guns, and when I said out loud, “Go get the guns out of the car” all the noises stopped. I’ve never been more scared OR more glad for fire power. I do NOT have a problem with responsible ownership AND in the hands of people who otherwise may be shot themselves by these extremists. That said, I don’t own one. Yet.
Chernynkaya : Kes, huzzy and I talked about arming. But in reality we’d have no chance. I still want a gun though because after the Big One, it’ll be anarchy here in L.A.
invient : Cher, that book does seem prescient… and it’s sci-fi, time to add that to my to-read list!
ADONAI : I wouldn’t go out and buy some guns. That seems counterproductiv e.
kesmarn : Is it bizarre to consider arming ourselves, c’lady, and did I ever in this lifetime think I would say such a thing?
Chernynkaya : OK but that’s not below the waist. I thought you meant another word for fat ankles.
choicelady : Cher – yes, the Handmaid’s Tale is out of the Bible. They believe in that stuff as part of what’s OK!
Chernynkaya : AD I’ll go to Urban Dictionary. Be back in a sec.
choicelady : kes – I’m thinking the “shadow” part is less and less so. I really want to know what we are going to do if they rise? This is so scary!
choicelady : Cher – good article. They are already in dominance in way too many of our institutions, including SCOTUS. YOu want evidence? They just ruled in AZ Christian Conservative Scholarship Organization v Wipple that it is LEGAL to discriminate with TAX credits to ultra conservative students and taxpayers have NO right to protest that. A 5-4 decision. THAT is HUGE.
kesmarn : I think my son read that. I haven’t yet.
Chernynkaya : Yes, it is absolutely terrifying. Anyone here read The Handmaid’s Tale? Totally prescient!
ADONAI : Nope. It means……. someone else tell her.
kesmarn : c’lady that is exactly the same info I have heard. Can we all say “shadow army”?
ADONAI : I saw some stuff on Prince. That dude really does want to run the fucking world.
Chernynkaya : Bachmann has cankles too. [[meow}}
choicelady : Eric Prince (XE founder) IS a RW Christian fantic who told his Blackwater guys to kill Muslims for Jesus. His wife is a DeVoss – Amway family. All very scary. Prince and Jerry Boynkin, another extremist, have camps set up all over the US heavily armed, waiting for “the moment”. I am terrified of them. There is one near here, also in San Diego. Scary as hell.
Chernynkaya : What other one, AD. Do tell!
kesmarn : She does indeed.
ADONAI : She rocks those pantsuits though.
Chernynkaya : We think it can’t happen here. Well I just read this:«link» ionator.blogs.ny times.com/2011/0 9/01/purists-gon e-wild/?ref=opin ion&nl=opinion&e mc=tya1 It’s about how Pohibition was enacted. Think again.
kesmarn : Yes, Hillary, whom I like -+- sadly -+- suffers from cankles. the only treatment is pants suits.
ADONAI : Cankles. so I take it you haven’t heard the other one?
Chernynkaya : I just learned the word cankles from Emerald this week.
ADONAI : But PMCs are gonna run the show. I don;t think republicans will like being overthrown by their own army.
ADONAI : That does sound like something he would write
kesmarn : Xe and RW fundie Christian maniacs are hand in glove.
Chernynkaya : AD, Daily Kos published a fake memo from Rove that showed how they would win by pretending to be disaffected Dems.
choicelady : kes – ALWAYS good to prevent cankles. That’s not anyone’s best look.
ADONAI : kes,I was hoping you wouldn’t bring that up cause I kinda believe that.
choicelady : AD – they very well might. The Dominionists are deeply embedded. They have been stopped from the worst by Gates and this administration, but Perry would let them have at it, and they ARE trying to build a corps of God’s warriors. Go read stuff at militaryreligiou sfreedom.org. They have been fighting the takeover for YEARS. We gain ground inch by inch, and it could change overnight where our troops don’t defend the Constitution but proselytize God’s law. Crusaders for Jesus. It happened under Bush. It WILL happen again if Perry or Bachmann win.
kesmarn : AD, Repubs will take over the country with Blackwater/Xe.
invient : yeah, I was hoping it was real…
Chernynkaya : It was a satire, Invient but good because it rang sso tru.
kesmarn : Good for preventing cankles, c’lady.
ADONAI : What e-mail?
invient : Anyone know if that Carl Rove email was real?
Chernynkaya : Got it kes. HAH–those were the best machines anyway.
ADONAI : choice, Are Republicans gonna take over the country with the US Army?
choicelady : kes – think of the exercise you’re getting!
kesmarn : I think it’s a converted Singer sewing machine, Cher. Treadle.
ADONAI : No. I’m saying only thinking of the now and not the future is what is wrong. You already know I don’t care for either Party. If that is what I meant, I would say it.
choicelady : AD – when the Nazi party got in, that WAS the end of Germany. The devastation they suffered because of it took fifty years to repair. If the Dominionists take over America, they will alter the Constitution, and that will ALSO take generations to repair. It’s not enough to blow that off and say – there’s always going to be an America. Not one that celebrates and protects ALL of the people. That is definitely in peril from them. Not worth the price.
Chernynkaya : KAS!! What are you computing on?
kesmarn : Hey, all. There’s a family cottage here and it has its own “unique” (aka crappy) computer/connect ion. I may not be long for this world on this system…
Chernynkaya : I can’t disagree more AD. What I hear you saying is that there is really no difference between the PArties and either will produce the same result. Am I mistaken?
ADONAI : You do great everything choice. I struggle to not be swayed by your arguments.
Sabreen60 : Hi Kes
choicelady : kes! I love Lake Erie! What took you there? And what has it to do with your computer? You didn’t dunk it, did you?
ADONAI : Hello kes!
ADONAI : only thinking of the immediate future is what gets us into these messes. I see the same problems that have assailed our democracy for centuries. The same extremists with new crusades. America doesn’t just survive, it gets stronger. :Something like America”? There will be America. Because we will stop thinking of now and political expediency and actually start thinking about our children and their children
choicelady : AD – proud to BE your speech writer. I do GREAT bumper stickers, too.
kesmarn : Happy Friday, friends! Sorry I’m so late. Drove down to Lake Erie and am battling this very glitchy (not glitzy) ‘puter.
choicelady : AD – No, you’re missing the point. Indifference to the opponent is the hallmark of danger to any democracy (which Weimar Germany was.) If you do not recognize the common problem – in this case like National Socialism a deeply extremist one – then you’re NOT exercising true democratic action but being irresponsible. It’s one thing to choose between Eisenhower and Stevenson. Quite another to pair up Obama and Perry. Might as well have primaried Eisenhower with McCarthy. The hallmark of democracy is watchfulness against its usurpation.
Chernynkaya : AD, I think you are taking a philosophical view that history bears out only across the centuries. It’s like arguing about whether or not humanity will survive. So yes, I suppose that in one hundred years we’ll still have something called the USA. But that’s really besides the point. It’s like saying nothing. We are discussing our immediate future and that of our kids.
Sabreen60 : When people believe that society has NO role in providing infrastructure, health care, care for the elderly, etc. then IMO those people are extremist.
ADONAI : Damn choice. When I run you are my speech writer.
choicelady : AD – cutting wasteful spending is NOT conservative ideology, it’s excellent stewardship of common resources! Wanton disregard of people’s finances is the hallmark of bloated capitalism! There is a massive difference between cutting waste, privatization, fraud in contracts and cutting BENEFITS. If we don’t make clear that distinction, then we ARE setting up the liberals as “wasteful tax and spend” people. Careful management of resources is very progressive.
ADONAI : So democracy is tantamount to fascism? That’s a new one. We gotta “watch the extremists”. THAT sounds more like Germany.
choicelady : AD – no that’s NOT how our government works when you’re facing extremists. That’s, sorry to say, Weimar Germany thinking. Oh – the extremists, they can’t win. Well, yeah, they can. And if the PL gets stupid, then we are in real peril.
ADONAI : bito, If you back up a few messages you’ll see I was referring to the Tea Party Trinity thinking they were chosen by GOD. I thought everyone got that.
ADONAI : Oh, that whole deal. I don’t want people to primary Obama but I don’t care if they do. That’s how our government works.
bito : “Verily I say to you, thou shalt primary for my nomination.”x
ADONAI : choice, I agree. Cut spending. Cut bureaucracy That is a conservative ideology. It’s not just privatization. I;m not saying most of the country is Republican.
choicelady : AD – bito and I are responding to things discussed a lonnnng time ago. Apparently he and I hold worries for a very long time! You may have already forgotten!
bito : perhaps I misunderstood.
choicelady : AD – so what? We do have waste, bloat, duplication. That is all fair game along with the rip off privatization of things we once did for ourselves. We don’t NEED Advantage to find our health provider in Medicare – we pay private agencies for NOTHING. That costs billions. It can go.
Chernynkaya : Wait–let me catch up a sec.
ADONAI : Wait a minute. When did I say that? Lemme back up here. If I did I must have worded it wrong.
choicelady : AD – I don’t see a single person can hold a candle to Obama, and primarying him means then yes – you DO open the door to the religious right, and you will NOT like that! No president has ever survived a primary challenge when he is the incumbent. You WANT the RW? I know you think it can work – but you have not got a shred of evidence it can, and who would be better? Kucinich? He would get NOTHING passed because Congress would not let him. He’s barely pased his OWN bills. I love Dennis – but his best role is the constant critic. NOT president. No one else is even remotely smart enough who is remotely interested.
ADONAI : Keeping Medicare and SS is a universal issue. But those same people want cuts, to trivial things, they want a smaller more manageable government. Believe in capitalism and all that crap. Most people are just smart about it. Not beholden to a dogma.
Chernynkaya : Bito, did I miss that? Tonight?
ADONAI : My what with who?
bito : AD your talk of primaries to PBO is ridiculous and self defeating.
Chernynkaya : CL that ansers the topic question. If you are correct, it’s that no one really has paid much attention yet. ANd yet it nags me because the only press Perry has gotten has highlighted his stances.
choicelady : AD – I think the country is center left these days. More and more people are polling concern about the safety net, about raising taxes on corporations and the rich, about putting jobs front and center – and Perry still lambastes the unemployed and calls them lazy. Michelle is just to weird, and Sarah already has baggage a mile wide. These people will hang themselves with their tongues.
choicelady : Cher – I think they haven’t really heard him. Social Security is unconstitutional ???? He will kill his own base of seniors! Just wait til he gets more public exposure. Again – Sarah surged until she got under the national spotlight.
Chernynkaya : CL–it was treasonous what he did about the hostages! And you are right to be worried. I think it’s speak volumes that these RR extremists are no longer hiding or moderating their positions.
ADONAI : I think most Republicans are at this point. They just want to win. The only thing Perry has going for him is that the country is already center-right anyways. Maybe he could push enough of them to the extreme. I doubt it though. That’s A LOT of pushing.
choicelady : AD – actually not nearly as much as you would think. He has set his course for the born again dominionist crowd and is not at all liked by bankers, business, etc. That will be his downfall and fast. All three of them – and yet the RW Christians will block Romney, Huntsman – anyone with a modicum of smarts – because they aren’t “their” kind of Christian.
Chernynkaya : I mean, what the fuck are they thinking? I CANNOT believe so many in this country are that radical. It can’t be.
ADONAI : I think Rick Perry caters to a wide variety of crazy
choicelady : Cher – it’s the REASON Reagan won that terrifies me. There is ample evidence he committed treason in setting up a deal with Iran to KEEP the hostages. I fear another set up. All three of the extremists are tied to The Family that in turn is tied to the rogue CIA, Ollie North, etc. – the people who abetted CArter’s fall. THAT scares me!
Chernynkaya : I am just still so bewildered at how Perry can’t be outright rejected by all but the baggers. Polls show he’s gaining among all Repubs.
ADONAI : I get ya choice. A legitimate reason to oust him.
choicelady : AD – And God sai – “Kids – I’m not the one talking to you…”
Chernynkaya : Good point about their extremism. I was just remembering how I couldn’t belive that stupid Ronnie had a chance and he won in a landslide.
ADONAI : And the Lord GOD said, “Verily I say to you, thou shalt primary for my nomination.”
choicelady : AD – yes, we need someone who can DO what Rahm did but with some intelligence and NOT with the cowardice of policy that Rahm had. He did not like health reform and worked against it – he had to go.
choicelady : Cher – there is night and day, this crowd and Reagan. Reagan hid is extremism and sailed through. These folks wear the extremism in NEON. They are so blunt and outspoken they will eat their feet quite soon. A friend also posits that this weekend – SARAH will announce, too. Too much ego NOT to. All I want to know is how they reconcile “God picked ME” when all three are saying it?
Chernynkaya : Cl not only ONE pit bull–it’s really the entire Dem leadership who seems AWL.
ADONAI : I loved Rahm. he was on Charlie Rose and Charlie was going through all this stuff Republicans were saying about teh healthcare bill. Rahm stopped him and said, “Charlie, let me tell you why that’s stupid and why the people who said that are stupid.” I loved that.
Chernynkaya : CL–well worth leaving us for that!
choicelady : Ad – Rahm was the WORST. We need someone who respects the public which he did NOT. He was cowardly on policy when he should have counseled BOLD. Obama has been better off without him. That said – we DO need a pit bull defender of this president!
Chernynkaya : Cl- Oh definitely. But do you think these are flashes in the pan? I can’t imagine otherwise, but then I was reminded how we all laughed at Reagan.
ADONAI : Cher, that’s a fear many people have. Government will destroy the country. But they can’t. They can bring us to the brink but we have to jump off ourselves. I still have faith in us. Things would get bad. But they would get better. That’s the way it’s been for over 200 years. I expect at least 200 more.
choicelady : sorry all – one of my homeless neighbors needed sandwiches, so I made some for him.
choicelady : Cher – Obama still has a lead on Perry – remember Sarah surged, too.
Chernynkaya : I was actually shocked too. I guess I was naive, and besides, Obama won by 9 million votes so I figured we were beyond it.
Chernynkaya : AD i can’t argue that people really seem surprised after the ’10 election, tho I can’t see why they should be. And I think that if the R’s are re-elected the economy will improve temporarily. But I sincerely believe that it will me a nail in our coffins.
ADONAI : I was kinda shocked that so many people were frightened of a black President. It was 2008. I thought we were WAY past that
ADONAI : I;m all for Obama getting re-elected. Hope to GOD he does. But if Republicans win I can look at it this way. Most people aren’t going to understand exactly what Republicans want until they do it. Either everything goes to Hell or a miraculous recovery happens. We are in an unsustainable middle. It’s gonna go one way or the other. I think either is beneficial in the long term
Chernynkaya : Ad– it is indeed absolutely insane–death panels and so much other insanity. I think a lot of folks really weren’t ready to trust a Black man.
Chernynkaya : And I agree with y’all that Daley is invisable and Obama is in a long slump.
ADONAI : We need Rahm motherfuckin’ Emanuel
Chernynkaya : CL is Lehane the guy who wrote Left Behind or am I hilariously wrong?
choicelady : Cher – I guess Daley is OK, but I think we ALL agree we need a boxer, a bulldog, a fighter or series of them who will go out swinging FOR this president. And that’s not Daley.
funksands : Joe Lieberman was leading the Dems at this point 2003
ADONAI : did not know that choice. It’s happening quicker than I thought.
choicelady : AD – you mean Blackwater IS NOT patrolling? I think they took over San Diego…
ADONAI : It’s been bordering on lunacy since Obama took office. he had to defend death panels! DEATH PANELS for fuck’s sake! Had to go on television and actually say, we’re not killing your grandparents. What tha hell!? I admire him for not going off on a motherfucker.
choicelady : Cher – Hillary’s “vast RW conspiracy” was a term coined by Chris Lehane who then failed to go the next step and PROVE it. A book is coming out (I am trying to do a post but that’s hard on my teeny screen) this weekend – that shows the power of Dominionism which is what it’s currently all about on the Right.
funksands : Can a banker run the most complex political machine in DC? Hasn’t looked to good so far.
Chernynkaya : CLady touched upon my first topic but we can discard it. Here is is: PERRY IS SURGING IN THE POLLS BUT I AM PERSUADED THAT THESE EARLY PRIMARY POLLS ARE POOR INDICATORS. DO YOU THINK they USEFUL IN DETERMINING THE GENERAL ELECTION? IF SO, WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE AND HOW MUCH OF THE ELECTORATE DO THEY REPRESENT?
funksands : Choice I don’t need Obama to do that very often at all. I want his people to have his back
Chernynkaya : Most people in the beltway said Bill Daley was a great choice. He’s even tempered but tough and knows his way around.
choicelady : AD – Obama IS a statesman. Turns out we apparently want a pony show. A table thumper. A bully. We declined the imprerial presidence until Obama got elected, now we WANT one, just on our side. Won’t happen.
ADONAI : Nobody will be laughing when Blackwater is patrolling American streets.
funksands : EXACTLY! This dude is an non-entity. He’s a BANKER
choicelady : OK – it’s BILL Daley (sorry, I misspelled the name) who was head of corporate responsibility for JP Morgan Chase. That job may be the biggest oxymoron around save for John Ashcroft as head of ethics for Blackwater/Xe.
ADONAI : Cher said it better than me. Skip straight to her comment
Chernynkaya : Cl– I have a theory based on nothing about that. I think the fact that Obama is not seen as a fighter frustrates many Dem pols. He distances himself form the Legislative branch and they have a hard time with that. I also think that personally, while I spend a great deal of time figuring the President out and only then realizing he was right, I too want someone to speak up for me vocally. I feel threatened by the Right–the media machines, the Kochs, the hate, the institutions they have set up, in short–Hillary’ s “cast RW conspiracy” was true. I feel the need to have someone fight back.
ADONAI : But maybe it doesn’t matter. People on the Left, mostly in the media, want Obama to be, dare I say it, George Bush. To talk in rah-rah soundbites instead of complex opened answers. Want’s more chutzpah. Obama isn’t like Clinton or someone. He isn’t a show pony. he doesn’t have the luxury of a nicely timed tech boom to strut around on. He’s just a politician. What we need right now. Not a bureaucrat but a statesman. Having said all that. Why are we still in Afghanistan?
choicelady : funk – you know, I don’t know. It’s not the former mayor, it’s his brother. I’m thinking he was in banking or something, but (cough) I’m not sure anyone in the family is bright enough to get hired even as a figurehead.
choicelady : Cher – that’s despicable. People who support puppy mills is like people treading on apple pie. What is WRONG with these folks?
funksands : What did Daly do before this?
funksands : Choice, it seems like no one is in charge of doing this
choicelady : funk – it’s Daly from Chicawgo. My home town. But he’s a dud in front of the cameras. And maybe everywhere.
funksands : Who is Obama’s chief of staff?
Chernynkaya : Cl–here’s one link to the puppy mill thing: «link»
choicelady : Cher – where are the president’s people? We need a James Carvill (sp?) and others who say this president is A-OK and then say what great stuff he’s done! The polls are in his favor – people in general LIKE him. So where is the cowardice coming from?
funksands : I think Adonai might be on to something. Who is coordinating this?
Chernynkaya : Funk–GREAT point! We have hardly anyone defending the prez on tv.
choicelady : funk – you have a solid point. Where are the Dems standing in solidarity with the president? He’s salvaged SO much for this country, and I don’t see the loyalty!
ADONAI : A lot
ADONAI : I can answer that funk. Obama’s PR team sucks.
Chernynkaya : Sabreen! Good to see you!
choicelady : Hi Sabreen!
ADONAI : Hello Sabreen!
ADONAI : I think Obama realizes he has a very weak field opposing him. He stomped McCain and he doesn’t need a big win here. He needs to salvage what support he may or may not have lost and just watch Republicans implode. They’re still getting yelled at in their own town halls.
choicelady : Cher – somewhere I saw that people who were interviewed all thought it was the GOP that were horrible to put off the speech. Person on the street sorts of things but out of the Carolinas, not the Left Coast. I think the average person gets more of the source of troubles than maybe the inside beltway folks and certainly the PL. I give up on the PL – Obama could indeed rescue puppies and they’d blame him for not rescuing kittens.
Sabreen60 : Hi Everyone: Kinda of busy, but I’m going to read as much as I can. It’s been an interesting week. Well maybe “interesting” is not the right word. Actually, the disrespect President Obama has had to endure has gotten to me this week.
funksands : Cher, I was going to bring this up tonight, but the timing is too good: Does Obama try to do too much alone? I seem to remember Bush and Clinton having armies of lts. that would be all over the tv and radio pushing for and against their political opponents when crap like this happened.
Chernynkaya : CL–they did! And they successfully defeated bills that would have restricted them.
ADONAI : When i was a kid I would say, “I need some money.” My grandpa would say “Get a job.” But then he’d laugh and give me 5 bucks.
choicelady : funk – I LIKED the original Charlie’s Angeles. Can’t say I’m still interested though.
Chernynkaya : I don’t think it’ll matter at all either. What I do worry about is that Obama is doing nothing to tamp down the meme that he caves. I think it’s only smart politics to accept that fairly or not, people believe that. And he understand that because he knows he has to speak to the fears of the Indies and some of the Repubs. Why not make the same effort for the Dems?
choicelady : Adonai – you’re right. And there are folks on the Left who care more about the mills than kids. No one really believes anyone will change those laws, but the fact they WANT to is horrific!
funksands : Choice, Charlie’s Angels is back on tv. This proves there is no bad idea humans won’t get behind.
funksands : Adonai, agreed.
choicelady : Cher – GOOPERS fought FOR puppy mills????? Is there NOTHING they won’t stoop to?
funksands : You get major karma points from rescuing animals from that hell.
ADONAI : They wanna take away child labor laws. I wish puppy mills were the big issue.
choicelady : funk – I have a friend who rescued a puppy mill breeding female, and never was there a more happy little dog! She still can’t believe she’s free!
funksands : President Dole and Perot had Clinton on the ropes 14 months before the 96 election too.
Chernynkaya : CL–there were some GOOPers who actually did fight to protect puppy mills in the last election.
ADONAI : Cher, I think so too but I don;t think it’s gonna matter a month from now.
funksands : Choice its about time you came around on the puppy thing.
choicelady : Cher – NO! The prez cannot command the House, and the Speaker’s botch – agreeing then withdrawing – makes HIM, not the prez look bad. But I’m worried about that puppy mill thing…
ADONAI : Fuck the ozone!
Chernynkaya : I am. But about campaign mode–which I am waiting for–I think that was a bad start.
funksands : So who wants to talk about ozone? LOL
ADONAI : Are you super cereal?!
funksands : Whatever Cher.
Chernynkaya : But General Mills WAS real, you guys! Serially.
ADONAI : I think Obama is in campaign mode.
funksands : General Hospital
Chernynkaya : I think that whole episode was lead footed.
ADONAI : General Disarray as well
funksands : No really. Civil War hero. Look it up
Chernynkaya : Funk, you lie!
funksands : General Dynamics too.
ADONAI : I think people will say eh caved cause the media NEEDS that controversy. Like fucking vampires who live on shame. But no, he’s just being a politician. The best politician in Washington.
Chernynkaya : Did you know that General Mills is named after a guy named General Mills?
funksands : I don’t know. He publicly released the letter he wrote to Boehner requesting that date, which the POTUS never has done. I think it was a ploy. Not sure if it worked though.
ADONAI : He bowed to Puppy Mill special interest cash.
Chernynkaya : OK, I like that topic better than mine! But do we think he caved on the speech schedule?
funksands : Topic 1: Why hasn’t Obama come out stronger against puppy mills? Another CAVE!!!
Chernynkaya : Oh, well, maybe we’ll see ya later, Funk.
Chernynkaya : Yes! Rob Snieder! I love him in all the Adam Sandler movies too.
funksands : At any moment my wife is kicking me off for her Skype happy hour. I’ll try to make it worthwhile.
ADONAI : rob schneider! Funniest thing he did on the whole show. It was very funny but they kinda ran it into the ground. I gotta admit I still do it though
Chernynkaya : “Lording?” That’s adoreable!
funksands : Know what my 7 year old calls praying? “Lording”.
Chernynkaya : AD–we’re like that old SNL skit of the guy who sits by the copier at work and calls out, Hey it Judarina, makin’ copies!”
funksands : Howdy nice lady(ies). Lord.
ADONAI : Labor Day. Just a free ride. Damn liberals.
Chernynkaya : Oh– the Shadow! Hi funkster.
ADONAI : Hola funkarino
Chernynkaya : Where’s funk?
funksands : Lurking. Always lurking….
choicelady : AD – it’s LABOR day meaning don’t. Seems wrong somehow.
ADONAI : My plans for the weekend seem to involve a lot of work around the house.
Chernynkaya : Indolence rocks! It’s my favorite pastime.
choicelady : Hey funk – did not see you at first. How are you?
Chernynkaya : A quartet anyway. Like the Beatles!
choicelady : Hi invient, KQ – good to see you. Cher – my plans are NO plans at all! Utter indolence.
ADONAI : That’s four people. That’s enough to start a pop band.
Chernynkaya : Choice! Hooray! How is everyone? Plans for the weekend.
choicelady : Hi AD!
ADONAI : Hello choice!
Chernynkaya : HEY! Adinai and Invient! Welcome.
choicelady : Hi Cher – sorry I missed AL but glad to see you here! Hi everyone!
ADONAI : Hello invient
invient : Hello!
ADONAI : I was doing some writing. VP always seems to start slowly. People trickle in as it goes along. Also, hello
Chernynkaya : Is everyone except bito and me on vacay?
Chernynkaya : Cool.
KQuark : I just might Cher. Depends how long it takes.
Chernynkaya : KQ and come back later if you have the chance.
Chernynkaya : KQ– We’ll miss you! bUt understood.
Chernynkaya : Good evening! (I said that the way Bela Lugosi would.) Is anyone ready for Vox Pop?
KQuark : Just wanted to say hi. I scheduled my leagues fantasy football draft to start in about 15 mins so have fun without me.
AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PDT. Guest hosting tonight is our mild mannered reporter for The Daily Planet, who in reality is Chernynkaya! Cheers and big thanks to Cher for stepping in for me tonight! Should be engaging and a lot of fun tonight…just one thing, pick up the pizza boxes and beer bottles before I get back, ‘kay?
AdLib is online.