We have come far enough from the Christmas attack to start to draw some conclusions. For this discussion, I will not assume that there was any deliberate effort to stitch up Obama. I am coming to the conclusion that this was a classic and not amazing example of turf warfare among the 16 intelligence agencies and the various other departments.
Loch Johnson, Regents Professor of Public and International Affairs, University of Georgia had some interesting points to make this morning. In the wake of 9/11 an assortment of reforms were mooted, and many were adopted, many not.
A new Ober intel chief, the Director of National Intelligence, was established. This office took many of the responsibilities of the Director of Central Intelligence. The DCI had theoretically had the responsibility to coordinate all the intel agencies. Now the DNI has that theoretical responsibility and power.
In both cases that power does not actually exist, because the DNI does not have the power to punish and ultimately, fire the various agency directors and assistant directors, nor the budgets of the various agencies.
Johnson’s thesis is that until that power is granted the DNI, we will continue to experience the turf wars that give us the undies bomber.
This authority was proposed for the DNI in 2004 when Congress was considering the reforms of the intel world. Now, I ask you to guess who it is that persuaded the (Republican) Congress to not have any authorities outside the Pentagon with power over the military intel agencies? Hint: a pompous ass.
Rummy just did not care to allow civilians to have power to fire the military intel chiefs. So we can thank Rummy for the undies bomber. Him and the (Republican) Congress.
I am looking to the president’s meeting with the various intel chiefs with the hope that he fires a few people. But Congress needs to give the DNI the power he needs to do his job effectively.
Hey all: Just back on for a bit. Wow. Hot debate, and well done, too.
Question: how many of us have actually READ the Qur’an? I’m interested in knowing. And I know that some feel it’s not really reading it unless you read it in the orginal Arabic; to that I say: I do the best I can, and I’m pretty sure God speaks in many languages. If I come across a passage which causes me confusion, I ask them to take out their “official” copy, and to read it in Arabic then translate it for me so that we can discuss.
My question is – for ALL religions – how well do YOU know YOUR book? By reading their book (even in the English language), I am able to engage in spirited and informed debate. And with that, we have come to realize there are many things upon which we can agree, or if not, how we can learn to respect and tolerate other beliefs. I tell my Muslim friends (and teachers) that I can agree with certain aspects, not others. I am not afraid to point out the call to jihad and defense of lands found in my own religious text, as well as questioning aspects found in their book. And I speak honestly with those aspects that I have found hard to accept (the final prophet thing being one). It always seems to make sense to them in some way when I tell them honestly that I cannot lie to them, and say something false just to appease them, because God truly knows what I believe in my heart, and how COULD I lie to God?
I do think we should have this as a topic. Misinformation creates many unnecessary chasms. The Blovicator and I belonged to a Tri-Faith Dialogue group for many years. We also had atheists, agnostics and pagans as part of the group. No one converted, but everyone learned. But let’s wait a few days/weeks. I can’t STAND missing this!!
Adlib: I am over here at the Help Desk just for the reply space: the reply tabs on the thread on which you just commented, the comment being on the subtopic of the prayer rug, are blocked out. So I can’t reply there. Should a Christian have his cross taken away, you ask, if a Muslim can have his prayer rug taken away.
My view is that no matter what the religion is, if a person is wanting to commit acts of terror and is using his religion as a springboard for that, then he should perhaps be limited in the practice of his religion until he learns that religion is not meant to be a springboard for any such thing. Whether I’d go as far as taking a prayer rug away, or a cross, I don’t think so.
I don’t know what the limitations would consist of, who would decide them, whether they’d be fair… or not fair but a violation of his right to worship as he pleases. It’s all quite complex. But no one should get to use their religion…any religion… as a springboard to commit acts of terror.
And jan, I never said in any post that I agreed with taking the prayer rug away, please read those posts again. I said that over here it would not be taken away, and why. If my use of ‘coddle’ made you think I want them to take his rug away, that is unfortunate. Best to ask someone what they mean by a word or phrase, or by the use of a word or phrase, than to just assume you know. I’ve had to learn that myself.
Always feel free to start a new comment when the replies get too skinny and reach their max.
I think the issue is one of human rights. For many, religion is a pillar of their identity. To pull that away from them, to cause them to even believe that they will be damned or bound for hell will do far more harm than good.
It will only enrage people more. And again, I disagree that prison should be a place to psychologically harm people…even though the reality is that it is that way today.
I absolutely agree, no one should be permitted to hide behind religion for committing horrendous acts. However, someone in prison would not be practicing their religion to commit acts of terror, they’re in prison.
What would become troubling is the prospect of determining, prior to any evidence that one is conspiring to commit terrorism, to act preemptively to restrain or limit the practice of religion based solely on one’s opinion of whether or not it may lead to terrorism in the future.
We could always have Brit Hume come in and convert them.~smile~ (sorry, to interrupt a serious thread)
I hear ya, bito! I enjoy reading all of them; serious and smiley ones.
Brit Hume annoys me, tremendously. ~~smile~~
You are forgiven. tsk tsk…
Adlib:I don’t know how to start a new comment. You don’t mean do a new article, I am pretty sure…where do we start a new thread for comment? Without doing a new article?
I agree with most of what you say. However, over here at Belmarsh where they keep some of the most dangeorus terrorists, they are given computers and they get to write frantic letters to the EU Commission on Human Rights and talk about their ill-treatment. This after blowing up a bus, with kids on it. I can’t bear this.
As for battering prisoners…I think you used that phrase in one of your comments? if not, my mistake… I don’t believe in that.
I think Jan is right that this would make a good topic for an article but I suspect the thread would be a hot one.
For now, I don’t think Christians should be treated better than Muslims all because they are in a Christian country; here I am talking about Christians who, like some Muslims, might be in prison.
I’ve heard that sometimes when these Muslim extremists pray, they rant, and talk about death to Westeners and infidels. That might be untrue. If it is true, for all I know some Catholic extremist is, even as we speak, doing virtually the same thing while saying his rosary! I.e. ‘Death to all Protestants!’ or something like that.
(I still can’t get used to being able to type some of these words I’ve used, here and in other posts, freely, without having to disguise them for a word-filter. Like ‘Muslim’, ‘death’, ‘Catholic;’, etc. I hope I get used to it soon, because it’s lovely to be able to just…speak. Thank you.)
abby
Abby, just go down to the comment and start all over with your thoughts. If you want to catch someones attention, address them by name to start.
Oh, that. Boy do I ever feel dumb. I forgot about going to the bottom of the page, how you can do that on Word. I am so used to being at hp…
Thanks.
Abby says:
“I
I suggest nothing beyond what I have said. If there are too many questions you can get some answers by Googling some of these topics, as I do, as we all do sometimes. As for our laws, yes, they are pretty lax. Have you ever lived in the UK? I mean in the past 5 years or so.
…not as hot as Guns, Knives, and Bricks…
heart you abby 😉
(My apologies to abs and everyone, I simply couldn’t resist — fifty lashes with a we noodle or send me to the Corner for time out.)
That thing you mentioned about blogging, I think a woman in full niqab still does. I saw it in Christiane Amanpour’s “The War Within” [clip may or may not include the segment]. Perhaps it’s best to allow them limited freedom in this regard though, perhaps we might catch them communicating with someone? To be honest, I don’t exactly know what her privileges are, I just saw her in some sort of detention facility in front of a computer.
Speaking of Catholics and the UN and complaints and rants. Mind you, I’m not comparing the two, and understand the emotion, but from an attempted standpoint to view this legally and dispassionately – would we feel differently if it were Bobby Sands or the Birmingham 6? Not to say I believe these Islamist neo-jihadi radicals locked up are innocent.
This point is a weak one, and I’m not fully prepared to defend it. Just throwing it out there for fodder for any who wish to dismantle it. 😉
Go to the bottom of the page.
For those Rummy haters among us, I offer up another little tidbit. It seems he was one of the executives of a pharmaceutical company and held quite a bit of stock in said company before he came to power.
If you remember, we had the big “Bird Flu” scare during the Bush years. The MSM and the government had us believing that millions could die…and that the ONLY drug available to fight it was “Tamiflu”, coincidentally made by Rummy’s outfit. There is no doubt in my mind that he made absolutely millions from the scare. The US government alone bought millions of dollars worth of the vaccine.
The dreaded bird flu never really materialized except for a few isolated cases. My point here is about the scare tactics of the Bushies and how lucrative it can be to scare the crap out of the American people!
The recent H1N1 scare may be somewhat more serious, but it does make one wonder how much is hype and how much is a little scheme to make a fortune! If you have friends in high places who can spread rumors and fearmongering, you can make a bundle!
He was behind the “Poisoning of America with Aspartame” too…
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_don_hark_080321_aspartame_and_rumsfe.htm
ATTEMPTED Christmas attack. I love how the MSM is framing this as a successful terror mission. There was not doubt an intelligence failure and screening failure but the attack was NOT successful.
I’ve always said and this attempt validates what I thought to some extent that if the passengers and crews on the before 911 knew what the terrorists were up to before 911 that the attacks would have been thwarted or at least mitigated meaning like the plane that went down in PA only the planes would have crashed. But the ‘give they hijackers what they want’ policy before 911 had allot to do with the success of the attacks.
With all the focus on the DHS I think the efforts of the DNI have been short changed. The 911 commission wanted much more reform than just creation of a DNI type watchdog. They wanted to actually merge many of the functions of intelligence agencies like the FBI, CIA and NSA but remember Bush fought against it and we have this DNI with very few resources and a shitload of responsibility and another bloated agency in the DHS.
KQ, another disservice by the MSM is to give the impression that a zero-risk state of affairs is totally achievable. They administer paregoric to the American population, instead of delivering a dose of truth. At least the Vatican security people–whatever their faults–had the guts to say that there’s no way they can anticipate and prevent every psychotically devious plan that every eccentric can come up with. Not that they don’t try. But it really is–at the end of the day– a worthy goal that is, realistically, not achievable.
Mornin’, Kes! Hope you are well today!
I agree with your point. I remember a line from the movie, “The Bodyguard”…something to the effect that if a person is completely committed to killing and is willing to forfeit their life to do so, there is practically no way to stop them.
Where I believe the US has dropped the ball is in ignoring our ports and borders. Only a very small percentage of shipments into our ports are even scanned for nuclear material or the like. We can never be totally safe, but we certainly should put more emphasis on our own borders. The “bad guys” only have to get to Mexico to make it into the US. This has nothing whatsoever to do with immigration…it has everything to do with our safety!
Em! Good morning!
Your point on the dangers of ignoring ports and borders as potential areas of vulnerability is so true. I remember those issues coming up repeatedly over the whole second Bush term. And it was always the “la-la-la I can’t hear you…” reaction.
Sigh. So many mistakes made. So much to rectify…
Unfortunately, today’s a work day, so I’m off to the shower. (Unlesssss…I gets my coveted “on-call” call…)
Bye, till later, Em and all!
Kes, I hope you have an absolutely super day! I’ll look for you back at the end of the shift! 🙂
“…I remember a line from the movie,
Abby, you’re right as usual.
I am opposed to the death penalty in general. I would imagine that life behind bars without possibility of parole would be worse than death. It certainly would be for me!
And sorry, Abdulmuttlab…no prayer rugs are included for the length of your stay! 🙂
I don’t mean to make light of this. I’m just in one of those moods this morning.
Over here they get their prayer rugs because of the EU Human Rights thing. They get all kinds of things, on human rights. David Cameron wants to opt out of the EU one and do our own Bill of Rights, like America has, because the EU one is so-wide-ranging it virtually coddles people. Which people? Somehow always the victimizer and never the victim.
Oh no doubt he will get his prayer rug, a copy of the Koran, and a special diet made just for him. I am sometimes appalled at the coddling of our criminals…many of them have access to computers, law libraries, and are even able to complete college degrees while in the “clink”.
I take issue with this, please see my reply which posted just above.
The question is then should crosses be taken away from Christian prisoners?
I do agree with Jan that prison was never originally intended to psychologically batter prisoners but to remove them from participating in society.
What has been lost is the recognition that most prisoners will likely be out on the streets again and filling them with fury isn’t the best idea.
A while back, the idea was to reform prisoners while in prison so they could return to society as productive citizens.
Now it seems primarily about retribution.
Very good points, AdLib. As I mentioned above (I’m not sure where my replies are going until I post them), this sounds like a good topic for another discussion thread. I’m not sure how to set that up, so I’ll just throw out the suggestion.
abby and Emerald, I can’t let this go – I must take issue here. Decent treatment of prisoners, even convicted terrorists, does not bother me at all. I’m far more concerned about keeping these individuals locked away from society (thereby insuring our safety) than about exacting revenge.
I get really upset at phrases like “coddling” prisoners. That’s another right-wing meme, imo, and it just us leads down into thuggery – as well as serving as another recruiting point for Al Quada.
jan: sorry but it is not a right-wing meme. The fact that right-wingers sometimes use the word ‘coddle’ does not make the concept itself a right-wing one. Plus I never said he should have his rug taken away… or that he shouldn’t. I don’t know;I can’t decide and when I do I will need more reply space than I have here to explain my position…
sorry, abby, I think it is a right-wing meme. And I got from your post that you were at least in agreement with another poster who said he should not have a prayer rug.
I’d very much like to hear more of your thoughts on this, as well as from others here. It sounds like a topic for a new discussion thread.
Very well said.
Security is also like a series of concentric circles. You may be able to penetrate a few layer but the final layer is us the public and we can do something about our own security.
The brave actions of the people aboard Flight 93 proves that even the worst intentions of terrorists can be thwarted.
So true, KQ. We can’t always assume that there will be others to protect us in every circumstance. I’m in awe of what the passengers on Flight 93 did to save other lives. They had to have known how the story would end for themselves, but they did it anyway.
And, if I were President Obama, I would give some sort of medal or award to Jasper S. from Holland on that Detroit flight. The word “hero” is overused; but he is one. That took guts!
Sometimes I think about what it must have been like for the earliest settlers in the U.S. Even young kids must have been aware that danger was always “out there.” There was a certain level of risk in just leaving a cabin after dark…bears, wildcats and sometimes hostile humans! There were poisonous snakes, dangerous weather that could roll in unpredictably and illnesses that were difficult or impossible to treat. All this was taken more or less in stride. One did what one could to avoid the worst of it, and after that a sort of stoic fatalism took over.
Not so much in the 21st century.
The experience you describe sounds familiar in a way. From the age of 14 I use to travel NYC with just my 14 year old cousin on the bus to see Broadway Matinees.
Right, KQ! Our family was in a Chicago airport not too long after 9/11 and my then 15 year old son was taking pictures. We were all harassed very rudely by the security people there, and nearly ended up having a very expensive camera confiscated…all for taking pictures! When I later complained about the bad treatment to a friend, all I got was a lecture on how glad I should be that I was “being protected”. I shot back–without thinking–“Hell, I’d rather be dead than live in a police state!” I haven’t yet changed my opinion.
kesmarn/KQuark-I believe that the last admin. liked and wanted us being in a constant state of fear…easier to manipulate fearful person than one who is rational and has independent thoughts.
This fear has been pounded into us daily by the MSN, and like Pavlov’s dog, we salivate.
That’s why it’s so sad when the Obama administration is not trying to leverage fear that the MSM is still acting this way like the GOP’s surrogates. No one is saying don’t take the security breaches seriously and fix the problems in the system. But I think the MSM has already prompted an overreaction.
Isn’t there an enormous disconnect between the right wingers who are quick to attack the government for not protecting them from terrorism while fiercely fighting against government-run health care and gun control laws because they claim that people shouldn’t look to the government to take care of them?
Exactly and suffice to say Americans focus on waste in social programs like Social Security and Medicare.
But the DHS and our other enforcement and intelligence agencies get a pass for their bloated budgets.
Who’s really making these calls here?
Who’s agenda is it to have the MSM to push certain things for us to focus on, like SS and Medicare waste and not other things, like what you are saying…the bloated DHS, intelligence and military budgets?
There are so many things going on in this country and we hear about 1/10th of them…seems that the half naked photo’s of Tiger are more important than a failure of our intelligence agencies.
BDM, so sorry I missed your comments earlier. I was briefly on call, then called in, and now I’m back.
Couldn’t agree more with you and KQ on the way the MSM uses fear in the Republican style to keep the voting public in line.
As we were mentioning earlier, the Founders of this country rejected that kind of craven fear. “Live free or die.” “Give me liberty or give me death.” Those were more than slogans!
Hey K! Glad you are here!
The MSM is a joke in this country! That being said, this is semantics. If the purpose of the ATTEMPTED attack was to terrorize, then it achieved its purposes. People were/are frightened, never knowing where these fanatics will strike next. So, in a sense, it WAS a successful attack.
I am eager to hear the President’s remarks this afternoon. He is supposed to speak after his meeting with the security team at some time around 4pm Eastern time. He probably won’t give many specifics but will use the time to try to reassure the American people of their efforts to secure us.
Just an aside here…I’ll bet Abdulmutallab is hating his life right now! All he managed to do was to set his crotch on fire! That can’t be a lot of fun!! LOL
Of course you have a point because we are a bunch of scared little children in this country thanks to our media and years of the GOP hyping the Democrats are weak on terror meme when THEY gave up the biggest terror attack in human history.
I choose not to be scared and put events like these into perspective.
Em, says:
“If the purpose of the ATTEMPTED attack was to terrorize, then it achieved its purposes. People were/are frightened, never knowing where these fanatics will strike next. So, in a sense, it WAS a successful attack.”
Was it not also an objective of OBL and his group to force the west into spending ourselves into financial poverty fighting them. Did not BushCo and his merry band of neocons do their best to help with that objective? Trillions for thy war in Iraq?
The attack happened. No point in denying it.
Thank Dog it was a failure.
At least we can agree it was a failure.
He succeeded, the bomb failed for the most part… Heh Heh Heh…
It was kinda funny watching the pundits using terms like suspected and alleged… He had 4 foot flames shooting out of his underwear but he is the alleged suspect…
Actually, it was a partial success, as its purpose is to stir fear and chaos. And to keep Americans at each other’s throats.
The terrorists WANT Cheney’s attitude to be the US’s attitude.
The last thing the terrorists want is for the Israeli Palestinian conflict to come to resolution.
If your point it is way a political success for Republicans and scaring Americans that’s true, but consider the weak willed nature of the audience.
99.9% of the success of 911 happened after 911 in our reaction.
Cheney–whether he intends it or not–is a subversive, a total collaborator, and a non-stop source of aid and comfort to the enemy. People who believe anything he says are simpletons of the most dangerous ilk.
Well said.
Agree totally, the man and his followers scare the heck out of me. They are far more dangerous to us as a nation than Al Qaeda.
Looks like this has Rummy’s sticky fingerprints all over it.
He was/is disgusting.
Before I turn in, here’s another interesting take on the man we love to hate (Cheney) from the site we love to hate (HP) which, every little once in a while, actually runs some good info ~
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/amb-marc-ginsberg/dick-cheneys-role-in-al-q_b_410614.html
Nite, all 🙂
I just finished watching Richard Wolffe & others (but not AH; I couldn’t bear her) on both Countdown and Rachel M Show ~ they’re all leaning away from the deliberate-withholding-for-political-reasons theory and leaning toward it’s-a-turf-war. But really, doesn’t it come down to the same thing?
Wolffe also reports that the President is STEAMING over this – so yes, K7, that meeting tomorrow is going to be veerrryyyy interesting.
Finally, KO made a Brief Comment on Cheney that really told the ol’ Dark Lord what all want to tell him ~
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#34694994
Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy
Hey Jan! Sorry I didn’t reply to your comment last night.
You’re right! When Keith Olbermann called Cheney a traitor, I actually cheered out loud! It’s time for this traitor to shut his “pie hole”!
As I said in my article, the implications of Cheney being somehow involved in this are simply my speculations. But I know he does have his “moles” at the CIA and other branches of government who no doubt are working to undermine the President. It doesn’t take much imagination. I probably would not have thought about this much if Cheney had not been repeatedly making his statements and speeches, trying to knock the President at every turn. Cheney just seems to be the one who has that kind of ugly axe to grind!
No probs, Emerald – I think I was about the last one up on this site way late last night.
We all have concerns about Cheney, and I’m furious at the msm for giving him such a platform for spreading his aid & comfort to the enemy.
As far as your speculations go, again, many of us share them. Rachel M even went so far as to elicit a statement to that effect from Wolffe last night, but he wouldn’t come out and say it. I not betting on those speculations being publicly validated, but, given the nature of Cheney’s reprehensible track record (we do know that he was coordinating a covert hit squad from the VP’s office during his term!), that’s not going to quell the speculations.
Jan: I just mentioned that in a reply to someone else…Cheney’s hit squad. If one will only take a long look at this man’s history and complete, cold disdain for the American people in general, one can only come to the conclusion that his ideology is all-consuming to him. He is hell bent on imposing his dark visions on the rest of us. Extreme paranoia is a symptom of mental imbalance, to put it kindly. I have serious questions about this man’s stability. And we all know how much damage an unstable ideologue can bring. Remember good ol’ Saddam who gassed his own people?
Addendum: I could imagine some scenario where Cheney was so obsessed with his “war” that he would be willing to sacrifice the lives of American civilians to make his point…and to turn the country to his aims. After all, he was willing to sacrifice American troops for an illegal, immoral war.
Em – I agree. I have long been suspicious of Cheney’s decision to stay in McLean VA instead of in Dallas TX (home of his beloved, Halliburton) or his “home” (what a farce – only because the candidate for Pres and VP cannot be from the same state which would have been TX in the case of Bush43) of WY. He would not think twice – based on his prior historically documented record – of risking thousands of American lives to justify his “war”. He is a cancer on all of mankind, in my mind. That is why I pray for his “release” to God each and every day. I used to wish I could die 5 minutes BEFORE Dick Cheney, Karl Rove and Rush Limpballs so that I could watch them when they approaced the “pearly gates”, only to be told “Sorry!” That way, I would wish them to have a long life (as I myself am not quite ready to go), but would have the pleasure (albeit a guilty one) of watching them get sent “home”. (Note: I don’t really believe in a physical concept of heaven and hell – it’s just a fantasy I indulge in when it comes to these shite-heads.)
That’s weird that you had this in mind and then tonight, this other story breaks. I know what you mean about the time slipping away. I am working on an article right now that is taking a lot of time…working with SueinCa who is very knowledgeable on the C Street right-wingers. I hope to be able to post before the end of the month, but the subject is huge. There are so many familiar names and I want to make sure I get it right.
The reason that I mention this is that it goes to your subject. There are so many right-wing bible thumpers in the Pentagon and other agencies in DC. They are really insidious in their infiltration. They have their agenda, and it’s very frightening. It’s hard for me to believe that this intelligence breakdown could be a simple “turf war” with no hidden political agenda. Some of these people are completely ruthless and would stop at nothing to reach their “goals”.
Oh, I have no difficulty imagining this being simple turf warfare.
I genuinely hope that there is no other ulterior motive!
Me neither. Occam’s razor would make this the likely explanation, even if I can’t but help harbor more sinister motives in the back of my mind.
It’s difficult. As you suggest, you don’t want to multiply entities beyond what is needed to explain something…or, here, multiply suspects beyond what is needed to make sense of this matter… but on the other hand, you don’t want naivety to take over and as a result let some creep off the hook who should be ON the hook.
What is needed here is some kind of machine, like the ones they want to install in airports: body scanners. We need brain scanners…wait, we have those already. Soul scanners?
CIA agents that don’t have personal agendas?
Or just some really good dogs. Like the kind they use on drug raids. We need dogs that can detect MOTIVE the way some dogs can detect crack.
Get working on it, Khirad.
Excellent point, Keven. I assume that you posted this regarding my earlier post about the “deliberate” withholding of information. This is not just a conspiracy theory from me, but from Richard Wolffe’s report on “Countdown” tonight.
As contentious as the subject is right now, I felt that Richard Wolffe would not dare to make some off-the-wall statement without certainty in his sources at the White House.
I don’t know about you, but I would dearly love to be the proverbial “fly on the wall” in that meeting tomorrow. President Obama had “that look” on his face tonight. He is royally pissed off!
Addendum: If there is anyone else as culpable as cheney, it would have to be Rummy!
No, not in reply to you. I heard Johnson interviewed today while I was wiring up a jacuzzi. I determined then to make this post this evening. I had hoped to do a bit of research, but time just slipped away.
Regarding the meeting tomorrow, I understand that Obama is a very cool customer, and I would hate to speculate how it is going to go, but I would hate to be in his sightline when he decides to express himself on this business.