Thank you everyone who joined us for Debate Night Live, we hope you enjoyed it. The conversation now continues here on this post.
Please vote for which side you think won the debate then join in on the discussion here on the issue, the debate and your reviews, comments and suggestions on our new feature, Debate Night Live!
[poll id=”7″]
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/us/politics/15health.html?_r=1&hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1258293763-EqeDSCHZnDSpXri+Pn661g
From the New York Times:
“”In the official record of the historic House debate on overhauling health care, the speeches of many lawmakers echo with similarities. Often, that was no accident.
Statements by more than a dozen lawmakers were ghostwritten, in whole or in part, by Washington lobbyists working for Genentech, one of the world
Wow, great find, javaz. This is why I push back when people say the NYT is useless. This is great work by Robert Pear. I’m starting to collect the names of reporters who are still doing tough, honest journalism.
I’m not surprised by this story. Watching those proceedings, it looked like the GOP has all been giving the same crib sheet. But it’s nice to see it pointed out for people who didn’t have the time to spend all day in front of C-Span.
Hi: I’m sorry I missed the debate, I had to work. From he comments I’ve read, it seems to have been a thought-provokingly wild success. I hope I can catch the next one.
Nice of you to say! It was very engaging! Hope to see you for the next one!
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Sorry I missed the debate; we had out of town company and were in “entertainment” mode. It is a great idea, and it seemed to have really generated some very thoughtful conversation. Thanks, Planet!
It was a whirlwind, to be sure!
The next one will be even better!
I am so disapointed that I missed this, we lost power for a little while last night due to the storm. It looks like reading the comments here that the debate went off pretty good, oh, well next time….
Goodnight and a huge thanks to KarateKid for debating me on the Planet. I know I was sure on my heels but I know most importantly we agree in much of the same principles on healthcare. My personal situation just makes me look at the situation much more pragmatically.
Goodnight KQ and sleep well. Gokosama deshita!
Well, folks, I must turn my attention to the household.
Thanks, this was fun. Have a good night everyone. And sweet dreams.
Night.
Night, nellie. I’m signing off too. Good eve all.
Night. I’ll be moseying off as well.
Night Nellie, thanks for being here for our Debate debut!
Night nellie. It was fun.
Sorry missed this. Goodnight nellie. Take care.
Bringing up Abortion is the right wing
Exactly. Wedge issues are all that the GOP has had pretty much since Nixon.
I will say this, people have underestimated and thought the worst about the Dems and Health Care reform but in the end, they’ve overcome what others said they couldn’t.
I think they will moderate the amendment to simply leave things the way they are and throw a bone to the Blue Dogs to say, “See, we won’t use this money specifically for abortions?” even though women will be free to have plans that provide abortions.
Let’s see. I do remember when the public option was declared dead too. Let’s not underestimate the gamesmanship of the Dems and Obama.
I agree. I still have a sense that we’ll get a bill passed and they’ll be able to offload this Stupak amendment.
It’s so annoying that the right wing is never called out for this ploy. They had the White House, the House, the Senate, AND the Supreme Court for years and didn’t whisper the word abortion. Now, all of a sudden, it’s front and center.
Maddening.
Also why I laugh whenever they bring out their so-called HCR alternatives. Yeah, ’cause it was such a priority for them all those years…
That’s what is so shitty about the Stupak amendment it brings up an issue that will divide Dems now on the issue of healthcare. Because face it Repubs are just a non-factor in the healthcare bill because that’s what they want.
Thank you KQuark and Karate Kid for pioneering this fun, new PlanetPOV event. I look forward to more of these.
Thanks it was kinda fun but I would much rather be on the sidelines for a few weeks.
Anyway, the long and the short of it is that Stupack fucked us.
This amendment is golden for the thugs, regardless of it being in or not.
A win-win for reactionaries.
It may not survive the conference. We need to see what happens in the senate.
Maybe they should start talking about the Catholic church’s tax exemption….
Now wouldn’t that be a nice “amendment” to cram in there? Let’s pay for this by getting rid of tax exemptions for religious groups.
It’s the Catholic church that pushed for the Stupak Amendment. If they’re going to start playing political hardball, I want them to make their proper contribution to our revenue stream.
The original concept behind not taxing the church was separation of church and state.
Now that “church” is no longer separated from involvement in “state” by their own volition, why should they get tax exempt status when they’re not keeping their end of the deal?
Think how many poor people and children could be helped by social services and education spending if the churches paid taxes.
Jesus would approve.
Absolutely. After all, they provide a “product” and generate income like all other corporations.
I wonder if the LDS have to pay taxes on all the bucks they make off of ancestry.com.
It said volumes when I first visited Temple Square and saw their corporate building next to the Temple. They’ve covered themselves on that stuff, legally.
This was a mixing of church and politics.
Nothing new there.
Who needs Satanism when “Christianity” exists?
With apologies to all good Christians who practice those lessons from the sermon on the mount.
Apology accepted AC because I know exactly what America is up against.
I didn’t know that. Yet another reason to feel the way I feel about them.
They did some major threatening.
I have a question??
What kind of $$$
are we looking at if some of the
“churches” pay some tax dollars?
PatsyT, don’t have numbers but my rough guess is that it could pay for single payer insurance for All Americans with plenty left over.
Good question. It’s hard to say, but considering their revenue intake — a lot.
Fucking ay right.
Chuckle, Chuckle, Snort, Snort.
That would be SO cool.
Did I piss you off or something Lance?
Escribacat: Who is this new person? I missed out on some things last night obviously. Just want to be up to date!
BTW, good morning.
Like with the LDS.
The repugs benefit if the amendment stays in, the repugs benefit if the amendment is dropped.
See?
I think the GOP loses when this bill passes — in whatever form. That’s why they’re so hysterical right now.
Now there I agree. I guess I was talking tactics, not strategy.
I agree 100% nellie, they lose big time and so will their benefactors from the competition. Can’t wait for more miserable Repub faces in Washington.
You mean when the people whipped up in a frenzy realize that the USSA never materialized and that they were duped?
Yeah.
Then again, some of those hardcore loons already think it’s here. No hope for the fringe. I’m just talking about bystanders that have fed into this scaremongering crap, but may come around.
My grandma was funny when I visited this past fall. Really conservative, especially socially (she moved to live across the street from her evangelical church). But, she also lived through the Depression and just put it: what, do people really think the government is going to treat them worse than the health insurance companies?
I think there’s more people out there like that who don’t think of the gov’t as the enemy, and that’s why the Repubs depend upon social wedge issues.
What Pelosi agreed to is only that she would allow him to put his amendment up for a vote. She did that, there was no commitment to keep it in the bill, especially in conference.
The Dems have a handicap, Blue Dog douches who would rather see thousands of Americans die every year than not be re-elected.
They need to either join the GOP and stay in the minority or start believing in evolution and evolve into 21st century human beings.
Adlib one of the technical problems I had was that my first statements were cut short by the chat limitations. There was obviously a limit on the number of characters in a chat line. I will put that limit in my debate notes for next week so the people debating knows it.
I will look into that, I wasn’t aware that there was any limit. Did the text box just stop allowing you to enter characters?
Nope just some of my comment was clipped.
It seemed like a sentence or two was cut off.
That could have been a glitch, I will test it out with a long bit of copy to see if it repeats.
Ouch.
I can’t keep up with it all, but it worked.
I apologize for interrupting again, but people, and me included, we did not know what to click, and it was the live chat thing.
You’ve got to spell it out for those of us who are technically challenged!
I am not alone!
YEAH, baby!
You must hate me, no?
I’m a bother.
I was married before the husband I have now, and not only was he a Republican, he hated me, too.
What?! Surely you jest! I really appreciated your letting me know, I rushed over to the posts and put up a link for everyone to join us.
Thanks!!!
Good night everyone! And thanks again to KK & KQ for tackling this divisive issue.
Gute Nacht nicole, take care.
Good night, nicole.
Goodnight Nicole, thanks for joining us tonight!
Nite, nicole473!
Night Night.
Well! That was fun!
When AdLib offered this to the charter members, I offered a few suggestions. AdLib said he would consider them for the next time out. I think he is considering them now!
KQ had his arguments lined up and delivered them.
KK, you know I love you and all, but you did poorly. Attacking with “that is just speculation” and “you are throwing X under the bus” is weak, weak, weak.
Of course it is fucking speculation. KQ is not God. Anything KQ says about the future is speculation. “The sun will rise in the East tomorrow” is speculation. You need to anticipate your correspondent’s “speculation” and knock it down with logic.
And this whole “throw under the bus” meme is so tired I cannot express it. KQ did not offer the damned coat-hanger amemdment, nor did he author the dynamic of humanity that makes compromise necessary to achieve progress.
I don’t like this bill, not even a little bit. And coat-hangers are a small part of my disdain.
But I want the victory. I will hold my nose and live to fight another day.
Or perhaps we can elect a Rethug Congress again?
“But I want the victory. I will hold my nose and live to fight another day.”
Ditto that. And I would add that no major legislation (soc. security, medicare, etc.) has ever been passed in this country that didn’t smell to high heaven on it’s signing. These laws were all amended for the better after the fact, and that is what will happen with HCR IF we can be fucking adults, STOP the in-fighting, and GET THIS BILL THROUGH.
I think you’re being too harsh on KarateKid. Going in, he knew he had the minority opinion and didn’t hesitate to accept the role.
That was exceptionally cool of him.
Also, in the after-debate chat, there were members who appreciated KK’s stand on principle.
So, though most here were predisposed to favor KQuark’s side, I think KarateKid deserves big props as well.
I think I was critiquing his technique, not his humanity.
KK clearly did not anticipate KQ’s argument.
That said, I am not sure I could have done better.
Thank you, kid, for doing your best.
Yeah, that’s why I’m not gonna pile on.
Plus, in my opinion, I think it was a hard position to take.
Oh, not really. The bill sucks shit.
Agreed.
Absolutely he did have the tougher position based on the folks here as well. I completely understand the principle progressive position in this case but I know the hard realities not only academically but through my life experience.
I agree with you Adlib. I agree with KQuark’s position so I am predisposed, but KK made one argument that I thought was the best I’ve heard against the bill — which is that we could conceivably take out the best bits — outlawing pre-existing conditions, dumping sick people, caps out payouts, and other important things — and pass those laws independently, without all the compromised bits.
I haven’t changed my position — I’d still like to see the bill passed and the exchange created and I still think this bill is just a foot in the door — as KQ pointed out, that’s how they got Social Security and MediCare in — but if things go very badly and the Stupak becomes a permanent wrench in the works and we end up with nothing…maybe it’s possible to switch to that as a plan B. Optimistic, perhaps.
Going in, he was a man.
Maybe next time you want to debate a woman’s issue, you’ll invite a woman to debate.
You have a point. But, most of the women here were fine with KQ arguing their side. I don’t think that men are incapable of understanding our issues.
Agreed. I didn’t have an issue with that (as a woman).
My point is it should not be a woman’s or man’s issue because it should not be an abortion bill.
Exactly. It’s a health care bill. The Stupak amendment is a red herring — I think designed to put a stop to the bill.
Like I said during the debate if you missed it I think it’s worse, pure extortion.
It’s a poison pill. Happens all the time. I don’t think congress should take the bait. Pass the bill. Revise it later.
Sounds like a plan.
Coming out, he was a man too. 😉
As was said, the debate turned to focus solely on the Stupak Amendment. That was not the focus of the question for the debate (though that’s fine), the question was did the Dems compromise too much.
So, I would agree, if the Stupak Amendment was the debate issue, a woman’s POV would have been ideal to have since only women are directly affected by it.
FWIW, I don’t think there is any way that it will be in the bill that Obama signs.
I knew going in the Stupak amendment was the weakness of my position, because it is the worst compromise in the bill. The Art of War says attack your enemies weakness mercilessly and that was the weakness on my side. It think the weakness in the pro side was history and the uninsured and that’s where I attacked his argument. I was also deliberately repetitive with the 15 years history/prediction to leave people with something they would remember from the debate.
The tenuous dem majority is also a strong point.
My head is with KQ but my heart is with KK
So I voted for KK
Only so that the stronger the voices of KK are,
that will fortify the Position of KQ.
In other words
The more the most progressive voice is broadcast-
the more the middle will move to the left.
I agree with you Patsy. Even though I take a more centrist position on this issue (and others), I am glad there are people further to the left of me fighting for movement toward the left. I often don’t like listening to their complaints about the centrist position, but I’m glad they’re there anyway.
You summed it up for me. I have my personal convictions, but I also have pragmatic considerations.
If anything, we could have been more progressive in the beginning. I still would like to know where the Dem leadership learned their haggling “skills”…
Yes. If you’re aiming for 5 you should start out asking for 10, not 5.
Dems are not used to having the power.
It’s like they have the whole amusment park to themselves and are just standing around saying
– I can’t believe how empty this place is !-
Get over it & get busy
Those rides have no lines, go get on them already!
I think you are being a bit hard on KK. I think the format was too loose. The only reason I was more prepared was because I got tips from my wife who was debate champ at one time. But still the format limited much of what I wanted to express. I would be willing to put together a few debate tips we can post on the planet for the next one.
But KK had me on my heals for sure.
Lord, I’m going to sound like the old fart again…but K7 I agree! Legislation is nearly always incremental. Bills for social justice are always incremental!
Hold your nose and get your foot in the door. Universal health care, as proposed in 1912, is a bit too long to not have gotten this close and let die.
exactly.
Wow!! that was good! WOW, I lost the site! Can I just vote this time as just good for all? This is a really good story on Sen Casy about the “Stupak add” he released a statement to saying in part:
Senator Casey has been a vocal supporter of health care reform and voted for the HELP Committee bill in July. He supports the public option to increase competition and reduce costs. And he is offering amendments to improve health care for children. Senator Casey thinks that health care reform should not be used to change longstanding policies regarding federal financing of abortion which has been in place since 1976.
Read more @http://thinkprogress.org/2009/11/13/casey-stupak/
Pretty interesting for a staunch pro-lifer.
So…thoughts and suggestions about the Debate Night Live function? What did you like, what didn’t you like, what would you like to see next time?
I might be the only one but I don’t text, never have so it all just moves too fast for my eyes to follow. Not a complaint, only a personal observation.
Well done to both debaters btw.
Sorry about that, I had meant to throttle back the speed of posting after the debate, finally did towards the end of the open chat.
I will see if I can enlarge the font, don’t know right now.
What Kalima said!
Please don’t fret on my part, it wasn’t the font size, just the speed, I can’t focus with the left eye so it takes longer to read.
I can sit it out, the Chat I mean, read through it later and then comment on a thread like this later if I have anything to say that is.
Like ? Love that you all put all this effort into this.
How about a longer box and maybe the type a bit larger.
Thanks! As mentioned above, I’m on it!
Well, I think that we need more than ten minutes…..
And I think that if the two of them had warmed up, had had a debate off line, then we could have avoided some of the personal chatter.
And I still think teams of two might make it better.
I have reread the opening Pro/Con statements by KQ and KK. Neither one made a clear argument that specifically answered the debate topic. The debate topic was regarding the DEGREE OF COMPROMISE – acceptable or not acceptable. KQ was stronger in his con argument (i.e., the Democrats did not compromise too much. )
I never got a strong sense that KK was arguing that the DEGREE of COMPROMISE was so extreme that the bill was ruined. Other issues got tossed into discussion so that the arguments got very muddy.
Well said.
Be prepared across the threads next time, and maybe allow a roll call (or not, we could see members who were there I guess), within reason.
I was finishing up another thread and got there less than 10 minutes late myself, and am perhaps just trying to excuse my tardiness!