DEBATEThank you everyone who joined us for Debate Night Live, we hope you enjoyed it. The conversation now continues here on this post.

Please vote for which side you think won the debate then join in on the discussion here on the issue, the debate and your reviews, comments and suggestions on our new feature, Debate Night Live!

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javaz
Member

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/us/politics/15health.html?_r=1&hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1258293763-EqeDSCHZnDSpXri+Pn661g

From the New York Times:

“”In the official record of the historic House debate on overhauling health care, the speeches of many lawmakers echo with similarities. Often, that was no accident.
Statements by more than a dozen lawmakers were ghostwritten, in whole or in part, by Washington lobbyists working for Genentech, one of the world

nellie
Member

Wow, great find, javaz. This is why I push back when people say the NYT is useless. This is great work by Robert Pear. I’m starting to collect the names of reporters who are still doing tough, honest journalism.

I’m not surprised by this story. Watching those proceedings, it looked like the GOP has all been giving the same crib sheet. But it’s nice to see it pointed out for people who didn’t have the time to spend all day in front of C-Span.

seehowtheyrun
Member
seehowtheyrun

Hi: I’m sorry I missed the debate, I had to work. From he comments I’ve read, it seems to have been a thought-provokingly wild success. I hope I can catch the next one.

Mogamboguru
Member

!

AlphaBitch
Member
AlphaBitch

Sorry I missed the debate; we had out of town company and were in “entertainment” mode. It is a great idea, and it seemed to have really generated some very thoughtful conversation. Thanks, Planet!

KevenSeven
Member

It was a whirlwind, to be sure!

The next one will be even better!

BigDogMom
Member
BigDogMom

I am so disapointed that I missed this, we lost power for a little while last night due to the storm. It looks like reading the comments here that the debate went off pretty good, oh, well next time….

KQµårk 死神
Member

Goodnight and a huge thanks to KarateKid for debating me on the Planet. I know I was sure on my heels but I know most importantly we agree in much of the same principles on healthcare. My personal situation just makes me look at the situation much more pragmatically.

Kalima
Admin

Goodnight KQ and sleep well. Gokosama deshita!

nellie
Member

Well, folks, I must turn my attention to the household.

Thanks, this was fun. Have a good night everyone. And sweet dreams.

KQµårk 死神
Member

Night nellie. It was fun.

Kalima
Admin

Sorry missed this. Goodnight nellie. Take care.

escribacat
Member

Night, nellie. I’m signing off too. Good eve all.

Khirad
Member

Night. I’ll be moseying off as well.

Khirad
Member

Night.

Athena
Member
Athena

Bringing up Abortion is the right wing

KQµårk 死神
Member

That’s what is so shitty about the Stupak amendment it brings up an issue that will divide Dems now on the issue of healthcare. Because face it Repubs are just a non-factor in the healthcare bill because that’s what they want.

nellie
Member

It’s so annoying that the right wing is never called out for this ploy. They had the White House, the House, the Senate, AND the Supreme Court for years and didn’t whisper the word abortion. Now, all of a sudden, it’s front and center.

Maddening.

Khirad
Member

Also why I laugh whenever they bring out their so-called HCR alternatives. Yeah, ’cause it was such a priority for them all those years…

nellie
Member

Thank you KQuark and Karate Kid for pioneering this fun, new PlanetPOV event. I look forward to more of these.

KQµårk 死神
Member

Thanks it was kinda fun but I would much rather be on the sidelines for a few weeks.

KevenSeven
Member

Anyway, the long and the short of it is that Stupack fucked us.

This amendment is golden for the thugs, regardless of it being in or not.

A win-win for reactionaries.

nellie
Member

It may not survive the conference. We need to see what happens in the senate.

Maybe they should start talking about the Catholic church’s tax exemption….

KevenSeven
Member

The repugs benefit if the amendment stays in, the repugs benefit if the amendment is dropped.

See?

nellie
Member

I think the GOP loses when this bill passes — in whatever form. That’s why they’re so hysterical right now.

Khirad
Member

You mean when the people whipped up in a frenzy realize that the USSA never materialized and that they were duped?

Yeah.

Then again, some of those hardcore loons already think it’s here. No hope for the fringe. I’m just talking about bystanders that have fed into this scaremongering crap, but may come around.

My grandma was funny when I visited this past fall. Really conservative, especially socially (she moved to live across the street from her evangelical church). But, she also lived through the Depression and just put it: what, do people really think the government is going to treat them worse than the health insurance companies?

I think there’s more people out there like that who don’t think of the gov’t as the enemy, and that’s why the Repubs depend upon social wedge issues.

Kalima
Admin

I agree 100% nellie, they lose big time and so will their benefactors from the competition. Can’t wait for more miserable Repub faces in Washington.

KevenSeven
Member

Now there I agree. I guess I was talking tactics, not strategy.

Khirad
Member

Like with the LDS.

escribacat
Member

Now wouldn’t that be a nice “amendment” to cram in there? Let’s pay for this by getting rid of tax exemptions for religious groups.

Lance
Member
Lance

Chuckle, Chuckle, Snort, Snort.

That would be SO cool.

escribacat
Member

Did I piss you off or something Lance?

Corgi Lover
Guest

Escribacat: Who is this new person? I missed out on some things last night obviously. Just want to be up to date!

BTW, good morning.

KQµårk 死神
Member

Fucking ay right.

nellie
Member

It’s the Catholic church that pushed for the Stupak Amendment. If they’re going to start playing political hardball, I want them to make their proper contribution to our revenue stream.

escribacat
Member

I didn’t know that. Yet another reason to feel the way I feel about them.

nellie
Member

They did some major threatening.

nellie
Member

Good question. It’s hard to say, but considering their revenue intake — a lot.

PatsyT
Member

I have a question??
What kind of $$$
are we looking at if some of the
“churches” pay some tax dollars?

KQµårk 死神
Member

Adlib one of the technical problems I had was that my first statements were cut short by the chat limitations. There was obviously a limit on the number of characters in a chat line. I will put that limit in my debate notes for next week so the people debating knows it.

nicole473
Member

Good night everyone! And thanks again to KK & KQ for tackling this divisive issue.

KQµårk 死神
Member

Night Night.

nellie
Member

Nite, nicole473!

escribacat
Member

Good night, nicole.

Kalima
Admin

Gute Nacht nicole, take care.

KevenSeven
Member

Well! That was fun!

When AdLib offered this to the charter members, I offered a few suggestions. AdLib said he would consider them for the next time out. I think he is considering them now!

KQ had his arguments lined up and delivered them.

KK, you know I love you and all, but you did poorly. Attacking with “that is just speculation” and “you are throwing X under the bus” is weak, weak, weak.

Of course it is fucking speculation. KQ is not God. Anything KQ says about the future is speculation. “The sun will rise in the East tomorrow” is speculation. You need to anticipate your correspondent’s “speculation” and knock it down with logic.

And this whole “throw under the bus” meme is so tired I cannot express it. KQ did not offer the damned coat-hanger amemdment, nor did he author the dynamic of humanity that makes compromise necessary to achieve progress.

I don’t like this bill, not even a little bit. And coat-hangers are a small part of my disdain.

But I want the victory. I will hold my nose and live to fight another day.

Or perhaps we can elect a Rethug Congress again?

bito
Member

Lord, I’m going to sound like the old fart again…but K7 I agree! Legislation is nearly always incremental. Bills for social justice are always incremental!
Hold your nose and get your foot in the door. Universal health care, as proposed in 1912, is a bit too long to not have gotten this close and let die.

nicole473
Member

exactly.

KQµårk 死神
Member

I think you are being a bit hard on KK. I think the format was too loose. The only reason I was more prepared was because I got tips from my wife who was debate champ at one time. But still the format limited much of what I wanted to express. I would be willing to put together a few debate tips we can post on the planet for the next one.

But KK had me on my heals for sure.

nicole473
Member

“But I want the victory. I will hold my nose and live to fight another day.”

Ditto that. And I would add that no major legislation (soc. security, medicare, etc.) has ever been passed in this country that didn’t smell to high heaven on it’s signing. These laws were all amended for the better after the fact, and that is what will happen with HCR IF we can be fucking adults, STOP the in-fighting, and GET THIS BILL THROUGH.

bito
Member

Wow!! that was good! WOW, I lost the site! Can I just vote this time as just good for all? This is a really good story on Sen Casy about the “Stupak add” he released a statement to saying in part:

Senator Casey has been a vocal supporter of health care reform and voted for the HELP Committee bill in July. He supports the public option to increase competition and reduce costs. And he is offering amendments to improve health care for children. Senator Casey thinks that health care reform should not be used to change longstanding policies regarding federal financing of abortion which has been in place since 1976.

Read more @http://thinkprogress.org/2009/11/13/casey-stupak/

Pretty interesting for a staunch pro-lifer.