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Debate Night Live – 11-13-09

December 11, 2009

Debate for 11-13-09:

Did Democrats compromise too much on the Health Care Bill?

Debating:

Pro: KarateKid
Con: KQuark

nellie : Moving to the thread now… see y’all there
AdLib : The Event is closed, please join us at the post on the debate, click this link to go there: «link»
KQuark : The first SS bill was barely a passable bill. Actually worse than some of the compromises now, even the Stupak amendment. It expressly discriminated.
nellie : The antitrust exemption portion of this bill is very important — that will address costs in a moderate way.
KevenSeven : Yes, KQ’s allusions to Social Security was persuasive.
AdLib : Last call, closing the event. Click the following link to continue at the post: «link»
KarateKid : To be honest with y’all, after the first few comments when I got the drift of what this debate was turning into, I didn’t see much of what KQ was saying because I was typing too furiously.
Athena : OK, Kev7, you are right about that. Cost containment will not be acheived until the profit in health care becomes non-profit.
KQuark : I’m drinking sake again.
KevenSeven : KK, I know we are on the same side, but accusing people of betraying the sisterhood is not persuasive with me.
javaz : Switching now to see what’s going on in the homepage, but KQuark, how could you, being a liberal, support a bill that is the beginning to overturning Roe vs Wade?
Lance : Well K7 you are right about that. But of course once it’s a totally socialist system we can change the model from fee for service to a patient outcome one eh?
AdLib : Folks, the conversation can continue right now at our post on the Home page: «link»
KQuark : I think voting for nothing will be a boon for Goldman Sachs.
Khirad : Indeed KQ, historical perspective.
KevenSeven : Lance! Don’t spell my name correctly! You have outed me!
nicole473 : nellie, agreed.
AdLib : Okay, thank you everyone for helping us debut this new feature. I’m going to be closing this event now, head on over to the post.
nellie : Doing nothing — I don’t see the advantage in it. For anyone.
Khirad : Agreed escribacat: that was a good point too.
KQuark : There are many misconceptions about how bold FDR was.
KevenSeven : Athena, why is the bill no good? because it does not address cost containment worth a good goddam. ONe third of the dollars that we spend on health care is wasted, and almost none of that is considered in this bill. And while I like the idea of everybody getting access, I also like the idea of containing the costs.
nicole473 : KQ, I pronounce you the winner of the right side.
Lance : There is no good argument for doing nothing.
KarateKid : I’m gonna get another beer. LMAO
escribacat : I want a bill but that was the best argument I’ve heard for not doing a bill.
KQuark : I’m fighting not to change the status quo. I think I’ve been unfairly accused.
Khirad : KQ, I liked the Social Security argument.
KarateKid : escrib, and it would be bipartisan, at least more than this one is.
Lance : Kevin, it is just SO much fun watching liberals tearing at each other. I work with mostly conservative people so I rarely get to have this kind of entertainment.
escribacat : KK: I thought your best point was that we could pass pre-existing and other laws without a big bill.
KQuark : I think it’s only a passable too because good for me would be a public plan for everyone.
KarateKid : K7, it isn’t about winning or losing for me, its about getting both viewpoints out there for everyone to consider. We are all on the same side, no?
javaz : Kquark, have you lost your way, in that you think all people deserve rights, and women? How could fight against women’s rights?
bitohistory : Yes adlib please move



	Khirad	Move.
	AdLib	escrib: I’m totally cool with it either way, want to make this better and better.
	Athena	Keven7, you say the bill is not a good one, why not?
	nicole473	move to the post preferred, adlib
	KevenSeven	Lance, you having fun?
	AdLib	QUESTION TO MEMBERS: I was going to end this chat at 8 pm, how many would like to continue or would prefer to move over to the post I’ve put up on the debate?
	escribacat	Adlib you know I’m just giving you shit rigtht
	KevenSeven	KK, you know I love you and all, but you really did not win this debate, not even. I was with you for a bit. But when you write of throwing women under the bus and shit, you lose me. KQ did not write the amendment, and he did not support it, he just recognized that it is a part of what is happening.
	nicole473	JAVAZ, that is wrong.
	nellie	The cost will be less than your current premiums, according to the Washington Post, and for those who can’t afford any coverage, there are subsidies provided for in the bill.
	PatsyT	excribacat has a great point about the box and font
	Lance	Health Insurance Companies. 23rd most profitable industry in America. Spends 80% on health care and 3% on dividends for its stockholders. That leaves 17% for Executive pay and all those EX-doctors deciding that KQ’s heart condition should prevent him from having insurance.
	KQuark	I’m defending myself.
	escribacat	Adlib: excuses excuses
	javaz	I think Kquark is a Liberal, yes? From his argument, I hated him. and I know that was wrong. but jeepers.
	KQuark	I like that we have more Dems in congress but I would like more progressive Dems. The plan was to get conservative Dems out of Repub districts but how do we get more progressive Dems out of moderate districts?
	KarateKid	AdLib, there should be another debate on this after the whole thing is done, it would be a more substantive debate. And my biggest nightmare for my President is to have to choose between reform and women.
	nicole473	KQ, thank you for defending the uninsured, 45000 of them die EVERY FREAKING YEAR.
	AdLib	escrib: Don’t know if I can change the font, larger font would put us back in the same situation where the box wouldn’t be able to display as many comments even if enlarger. I’ll play with it.
	escribacat	What I don’t know is how much is it going to cost me to buy insurance…that ‘s t he big question for me.
	nellie	Congress is no longer paying attention to us, unless we’re on the phone to them. They know they MUST pass something, and they will.
	Athena	If the public option is for the self employed. The self employeed have virtually no reasonably priced options at this time, right. So if the bill solves this problem it is worthwhile.
	Athena	If the public option is for the self employed. The self employeed have virtually no reasonably priced options at this time, right. So if the bill solves this problem it is worthwhile.
	javaz	karate kid, you did great, but being a woman, I was shouting, screaming at my computer!
	nicole473	I didn’t bring up a div & conquer theory, Adlib. I said that the insurance companies want us to do what we are doing. In-fighting and eventually we will just stop and give up. No bill. Ins. cos. happy.
	Khirad	AdLib: or more interested in keeping his local seat.
	escribacat	Adlib: I suggest a bigger font size and a bigger(longer) box.
	KQuark	Yup.
	KevenSeven	Lance has a point, don’t kiss and make up. Move on!
	AdLib	Escrib, don’t know but may be able to enlarge the box by next week.
	Lance	I think Stupak is more ProLife than Pro Democrat but who knows.
	KarateKid	Lance, that’s what a debate is all about, when two people are passionate about their views.
	javaz	wow, this is an awesome thing?
	KQuark	I’m going blind myself.
	AdLib	Nicole: My curiosity is at this “divide and conquer” suggestion against a Dem. That would mean Stupak is against the Dems keeping control of the House?
	nellie	Oh sweetie, keven!
	KQuark	It’s allot better than 70% though.
	escribacat	Adlib: any way to make the chat box bigger??
	KevenSeven	Nellie may disagree with me but she is still the best!
	nicole473	Exactly, Khirad.
	nellie	The public option will also be available to small companies with fewer than 20 employees.
	KevenSeven	Lance has a good point. Demanding that the insurance companies pay out 85% is not a victory.
	nellie	The public option is available to people who are unable to purchase insurance through their work, or unable to afford private insurance.
	KQuark	LOL
	nicole473	LOL, javaz.
	Khirad	Nevertheless, the Insurance Companies had to be applauding Stupak for doing their work for them.
	Lance	KK and KQ, you can stop appologizing to each other for being mean.
	Athena	The public option is going to be available to whom, exactly, in the House bill?
	nicole473	stupak is a conserva dem, adlib. a pro-lifer.
	AdLib	Cheers KarateKid!
	javaz	may I make a request? And karate kid did do a great job, but the next time you do a debate about woman’s right, that you include a woman. I am hoarse from screaming. and my dog was scared and my husband laughing, but then again, David laughs at me a lot!
	KarateKid	KQ, before the debate I said you were my friend, and you still are. I don’t disrespect your passion.
	KQuark	Stupak was pure extortion.
	nellie	It doesn’t have everything it should have, but there are important provisions in that bill that will mean the difference between life and death to some people.
	AdLib	Khirad: But Stupak is the one who pushed this bill, divide and conquer from another Dem against Dems?
	nicole473	agreed, kevenseven/
	Lance	KQ, Right, in 1990 it was 95%. Progress that.
	nellie	I disagree that the bill is pathetic
	KQuark	KK did you catch what I said about Stupak?
	KevenSeven	The simple fact is that the Dems will get fucked with their pants on if we do not pass a health care bill, no matter how pathetic it is. This bill is pathetic, but I am all about building the party, so I am for it.
	KQuark	One of the best parts of the bill is it forces insurers to pay 85% of premiums towards claims.
	escribacat	Is there anyone here without insurance who does NOT want some sort of bill passed?
	Lance	Nicole is right about the Insurance companies. If ever there was a waste of money it is paying them to deny their customers the health care payments they promised.
	escribacat	Khirad: What you said too.
	Khirad	I agree with nicole. Divide and conquer is their plan, and it’s working splendidly.
	KQuark	I hope you understand that.
	bitohistory	Please slow down for this old man, kids
	nicole473	THank you Kalima.
	javaz	because they did not know where to find it
	PatsyT	What can we agree on
	KQuark	KK in every debate you have to defend weaknesses in you side and Stupak was my flank for sure. I don’t believe in it or support it but because of this debate I had to have an answer for it.
	escribacat	What nicole said
	Kalima	Ok guys, this is all moving too fast for my poor eyes, so I’m taking a break but not before I say that you all have to move to get this bill passed, warts and all, believing that down the line when people are used to it, finding it much better than before, there will be amendments added or removed. I’d rather have half a dream than none at all.
	AdLib	Javaz: What do you mean about people making fun of it?
	nicole473	Well, lets just throw our hands up, refuse to settle for less than perfect, and do nothing. Just what the insurance cos. want.
	javaz	because they did not know where it was
	KarateKid	If a company participates in the Exchange, and who would not, they cannot offer a plan privately that contains an abortion clause. THAT is what separates it from Hyde.
	Lance	Stupak is bad. We can hope some of the supporters will understand that by the time Pelosi is squeezing their balls.
	nellie	It does not affect women’s private insurance purchases — Unless I’m mistaken.
	javaz	No offense but it’s hard to follow and please forgive me for interrupting the debate when I did, but people were making fun of it,
	AdLib	Thanks escrib and nicole, just throttled it down.
	nellie	It goes beyond Hyde for women using the public option.
	KQuark	Yep that’s a big problem.
	KevenSeven	Lance : Damn right I did. Like becoming a great-Uncle was any treat for me!
	KarateKid	KQ, read clause 3 of the Stupak Amendment. It goes way beyond Hyde.
	escribacat	Khirad: LOL
	nellie	Exactly KQ
	bitohistory	According to the Goldman-Sachs report leaked to day the best thing for ins. corps. is to do NOTHING. most profit– do nothing
	Khirad	Too fast. I canna take any more captain!
	KQuark	Because of the Hyde amendment
	nicole473	AdLib….a little too fast for me…
	Lance	and dam is how you spell it when you mean holding back water.
	escribacat	Adlib: Moving too fast…
	KQuark	The poorest woman on Medicaid have to pay for their own abortions now.
	nellie	Nothing is being taken away from poor women. Women do not currently get federal subsidies for abortion.
	KarateKid	These Pro Lifers bomb clinics, kill doctors, they will not stop until Roe v. Wade is defeated. They’ve already made it more difficult in some staes.
	javaz	LOL
	Lance	Damn right I did.
	AdLib	An aside, what do you folks think of chatting this way?
	nicole473	KK…..planned parenthood can kiss my derriere.
	KevenSeven	Lance : Re: Women planning for abortions. Personally I think they need to plan for it before ‘electively’ having sex. Lance became a grandpa too young!
	Lance	Don’t see how Nicole.
	nellie	KK, we have waited 100 years to get this far. Personally, I don’t think waiting longer is prudent.
	javaz	They are taking the way from poor women to have a choice
	KQuark	I think the pressure will mount to kill the worst parts of the Stupak amendment as well.
	AdLib	Khirad: Wiseguy!
	nicole473	Medicare is a whole different thing, Lance.
	KarateKid	Nicole, Planned Parenthood does not agree with you
	javaz	Yes they are
	Khirad	I was mostly kidding, AdLib.
	nicole473	Javaz, no one is throwing anyone under the bus. THat is ridiculous.
	nellie	Women are in no worse position with the Stupak amendment in place than they are now.
	KarateKid	Nellie, to answer your question, the pressure will mount on the recalcitrant Blue Dogs, someone will introduce a more moderate bill in the House and it will be more bipartisan.
	Lance	If Medicare isn’t a foot in the door for single payer how will a public option be?
	AdLib	Khirad: No line item veto for presidents. Bush wanted it, Congress has to pass it and if they did, it would be ceding much power from Congress to the Pres.
	javaz	You are throwing women under the bus, and it’s the same for gay rights, NEVER give up what it is believe in and we as liberals believe in the rights of all people.
	nellie	And for insured people, what is the advantage in doing nothing?
	nicole473	KK…it may not change at all for me immediately. What it will do is get the proverbial foot in the door for single payer for all.
	KQuark	For uninsured like me absolutely no advantage.
	Khirad	Well said nellie.
	KevenSeven	escribacat : Fact is, we don’t know what’s going to be in the bill. So what? We should stop debating? What is your point?
	AdLib	KQuark, that’s the real issue. If the Stupak amendment is never going to be kept anyway, then this is only entertainment for the GOP.
	nellie	I’m just wondering what advantage there is in doing nothing.
	KevenSeven	escribacat : Fact is, we don’t know what’s going to be in the bill.
	KQuark	I’m the last one who would throw woman under the bus. I did not make the Stupak amendment like it sounded.
	KarateKid	Nicole, I thought about your situation. What will change if there is no public option? You’d be buying insurance for you and your son from a private company, right? Is it affordability? And if so, what makes you think the insurance companies will substantially lower the price if there is not competition? Do you think they’ll take all this lying down?
	Lance	I hope the Senate will not let Stupak through. If it isn’t in the bill from then it should die in conference and Pelosi should still be able to get to 218.
	javaz	This is about control over women, and yes it is, and anyone supporting the bill, is missing that,
	Khirad	What’s the status on line-item?
	PatsyT	Nicole YOu have a great point, if take abortion out of it, what are the rest of the issues?
	nicole473	That is not the debate here, Lance.
	KQuark	No Adlib.
	KevenSeven	KK, also,you lose with me when you accuse people of throwing a victim class under the bus. That was a poor method of moving your argument forward.
	Lance	Re: Women planning for abortions. Personally I think they need to plan for it before ‘electively’ having sex.
	AdLib	Does anyone truly believe the Dems will pass and Obama will sign the Stupak amendment?
	nicole473	I don’t. Heart condition.
	escribacat	I’m not the only one here who can’t get insurance due to pre-existing conditions, right? Who’s got insurance?
	Khirad	Why not next year or the year after? Mid-terms, political capital, momentum — now or never (or not for 15+ years).
	javaz	How dare you in taking my control over my body and hand it over to government or religious control.
	KQuark	That’s the problem two terrible choices Kalima.
	nicole473	@Kalima……… YES.
	KarateKid	I know it’s not, Nicole. I stated my objections to the entire process.
	Kalima	Shouldn’t people be giving more thought to the 122 people who die for lack of health insurance every day?
	AdLib	Criticize the position, not the person.
	nicole473	Javaz is speaking as an insured woman.
	KQuark	That’s part of the problem escribacat.
	AdLib	Folks, let’s keep this collegial please.
	KarateKid	Thank you javaz, I have two daughters and I want to be able to look them in the eye.
	escribacat	Fact is, we don’t know what’s going to be in the bill.
	nicole473	Karate Kid…….aborti on is NOT the only thing to be concerned about.
	KevenSeven	Sorry. I kept hitting return to create a damned paragraph! The bill stinks for good reason. KK, of course KQ is speculating. Why the fuck do you feel the need to point that out? He is not god. All his speculation on the future is speculation.
	javaz	How dare you, take my rights away when it comes to contraceptives and abortion.
	Lance	Re: Democrats in 2010. They need to pass heath care reform or they will lose seats and it will be the Blue (running) Dogs out first.
	Khirad	Lord, that was hard to sit through without jumping in…
	AdLib	THE CHAT IS OPEN! PLEASE FEEL FREE TO JOIN IN EVERYONE!
	KarateKid	What woman plans for an abortion? Think about that for a minute.
	KQuark	The format was difficult but I thought part of a debate was attacking the opponents position. Sorry if anything sounded personal.
	Lance	Re: Republicans wanting reform. They don’t want reform because they get paid by those who profit from the system now. Making insurance purchaseable cross state borders will just cause a rush to the bottom of regulatory control (ask Mr. Elizabeth Kuinich).
	Kalima	I’d like to as KK, what the percentage of Progessives is in the DEmocratic party or indeed in the whole of the population of the U.S?
	Lance	I assume so. Re: Opt in/Opt Out. Since we want the Public Option to succeed at first, have healther populations able to join it rather than unhealthy (Red State) populations I’m all for Opt in.
	javaz	Are we open now to taliking?
	Lance	Re: Only letting 5% of people get the Public Option being a foot in the door for single payer. We have lots of STUPID compromises between left and right that make our system a living hell, such as Welfare before Clinton’s reform. If we have a Public Option there is all the posibility it will just become one more stupid compromise.
	AdLib	Thank you KarateKid and KQuark and everyone watching the debate. You may now join in. Those members who do not see a text entry box just need to refresh their screens. We will keep this open for a little while to see how it goes.
	Lance	Re elective abortion coverage. If private insurance does not cover elective (CHOICE) abortion how is the Stupak amendment a lose of anything for women? Women lose something if they are able to buy insurance that covers elective abortions.
	Lance	Okay, time to start.
	nicole473	KK……this is not selling women out. The fact is that it maintains the status quo on abortion for the most part. As a woman, this is not important to the degree that ALL Americans have health care insurance.
	KarateKid	Keven, that’s why I asked AdLib about the process. KQ was jumping all over the place and began attacking me instead of talking about his beliefs. The format sort of fell apart after that.
	KQuark	At least you have insurance KK.
	KevenSeven	Sorry, don’t hit the return button while typing! Anyway, I agree that the bill stinks to high heaven, and for many reasons not mentioned in this debate.
	KQuark	I don’t want to sell out tens of millions without insurance.
	AdLib	K7, please wait.
	KarateKid	This is a bad bill. I will NOT sell women out, not after how hard they fought for their rights. It should not even be called Universal Healthcare, it should be called Uninsured Healthcare. What about the rest of us who are near breaking point paying onerous premiums (for my wife and me, it’s 950/month). You can’t put the genie back in the bottle once it’s out.
	KevenSeven	KK had me for the first few minutes, but, and you know I love you and all, your debate fell to shit.
	KQuark	The time is now for healthcare reform and if the Dems cannot get it done know with 60 votes in the Senate it will not get done in 15 years maybe our lifetime. I see many people with principle and insurance standing on principle on this issue. But for the uninsured principle does not pay for you doctor visits or your Rx. Do we just shirk our responsibilities and throw our hands up or get healthcare reform done to start the process?
	AdLib	A note to our guests, after closing statements, the chat will be open to all members to discuss the issue.
	AdLib	CLOSING STATEMENTS ?-??-??-??-?-KQU ARK THEN KARATEKID.
	KarateKid	I live in Jersey and we are more open minded up north, I guess.
	KarateKid	My positions are more Progressive so don’t waste your time trying to paint me as an R.
	AdLib	Whoops, I mean closing statement!
	KQuark	I live in GA and no Repubs want reform I’ve talked to.
	AdLib	KQUARK AND KARATEKID: We have just a few minutes left in our debate, at this point I’d like to ask KQuark to offer an opening statement then KarateKid.
	KarateKid	Yes they do, just not the way it’s being proposed.
	KQuark	Sorry but you did say Republicans want reform as much as Dems. I thought you implied they can give us the same reform.
	KarateKid	I am just stating my positions and what I know from conversing with many people, left, right, center, R, I, D.
	KarateKid	I don’t. Now you’re putting words in my mouth.
	KQuark	You favor republicans handling reform why?
	AdLib	Hang on bitohistory, the debate will officially end in a few minutes then all can jump in.
	KarateKid	I know a lot of Republicans who want it.
	KarateKid	Yes they do.
	KarateKid	15 years, yes, but with a Republican Congress for 12 of those years and a Republican in the WH for 8 of those years.
	KQuark	WRONG the Republicans do not want to reform. Only one has voted for reform. Do you really think they will bring better reform?
	bitohistory	Medicaid is opt out. and no states do.
	KarateKid	What is there to stop, IF the bill does not make it to BHO’s desk, someone from introducing a bill next year? Or after the election. Republicans want a reform also, just not with a PO or a mandate.
	KQuark	Medicare is opt out for states now, sure bring it up.
	KQuark	We already so them try in 1993 and we are now over 15 years later arguing the same issue worried about perfection. History is on my side.
	bitohistory	May I bring up the opt-in/opt out for states? Thoughts?
	KarateKid	It’s an assumption on your part.
	KarateKid	That’s not snark.
	KQuark	Snark is not debating.
	KarateKid	That’s speculation.
	KQuark	Yes but how does a 15 year delay make the delay faster?
	KarateKid	Some reform
	KarateKid	The timing. There will not be full implementation for four years. The PO went from 129 million to 5 million.
	AdLib	Let’s keep the debate rolling for 10 more minutes. KarateKid, please feel free to respond to my question to KQuark.
	KarateKid	Sorry, I got disconnected
	KQuark	What other substantive points do you have besides the Stupak amendment and saying I’m throwing women under the bus?
	KQuark	That is the worse part of the real healthcare bill because of financing. But the crack in private insurance will lead virtual single payer eventually.
	KarateKid	I can answer that if KQ is done. I’m not near finished.
	AdLib	NEW QUESTION: KQuark, what about the compromises made to delay many of the changes for 4 years and the fact that the Public Option, if passed, would only cover 5% of the population? When the public is fully informed of these facts, will they begin to sour on it?
	AdLib	KQUARK AND KARATEKID: I’d like to ask a new question on this topic to KQuark:
	KarateKid	The haste and lack of foresight in the legislation is evident in the outcome. They allow Stupak to submit and amendment but not Weiner or Kucinich.
	KQuark	I had fun see you on the flip side.
	KQuark	Not elective check facts. They all have clauses about that.
	KevenSeven	Lance, stay out until they are done.
	KarateKid	How is it a double standard?
	KarateKid	Yes, they do offer it. Check your facts.
	KQuark	Hmmmm. nice double standard.
	KQuark	Not giving Social Security to minorities and woman is not selling out?
	Lance	about 86% of private insurance plans offer elective abortions.
	KarateKid	And mandating that one has to buy insurance even if you can’t afford it isn’t very progressive.
	KQuark	Insurance companies do not offer elective abortions in most cases now. You are trying to make the healthcare bill an abortion bill and have been dodging the bigger issue.
	KarateKid	Selling women out is not very progressive.
	KarateKid	There was nothing as heinous as the Stupak amendment in those programs.
	KarateKid	You are comparing apples to oranges.
	KarateKid	And how are low income women going to get healthcare with an abortion clause IF all the companies participate in the Exchange. They won’t be able to offer a private plan even to those who want it
	KQuark	Just like Social Security, Medicare and the S-CHIP program they all started with major compromises especially Social Security. Because of the socially conservative Dixiecrats FDR had to deal with the first version of Social Security was highly discriminatory. It did not cover occupations that were dominated by woman and minorities. Furthermore it did not even cover government employees. But could you imagine what our fragile safety net would be like today without Social Security if FDR had v
	KQuark	The public plan in the House bill is the first crack in the damn to single payer. While the crack is small any crack will lead to the ultimate deluge that will result from the damn breaking. A deluge in the form of a virtual single payer system. Instead of giving up now and getting about the same thing in 15 years we can take the first step now and in 15 years be well on our way towards virtual single payer while in the mean time curbing the predatory practices of profitcare.
	AdLib	NEW QUESTION: KQuark, what about the compromises made to delay many of the changes for 4 years and the fact that the Public Option, if passed, would only cover 5% of the population? When the public is fully informed of these facts, will they begin to sour on it?
	KQuark	I hear the ideological purists all the time as well and they have done nothing but whine about no progress when it’s being made all the time.
	KQuark	Low income woman who have Medicaid don’t get government money for abortions now. Insurance does not pay for elective abortions now.
	KarateKid	Pragmatic, that’s what I hear all the time. I call it caving.
	KQuark	Most progressives think independently and don’t worry about passing litmus tests like you are stating. I have the pragmatic position while you are lining up with the conservatives in no matter what perfume you put on it.
	KarateKid	And you ARE throwing low income women under the bus by voting for a bill that contains Stupak, even if you personally oppose it, it’s moot cuz it will be in the bill or it won’t pass.
	KarateKid	Well some of us have principles we won’t compromise.
	KQuark	Lines in sand has killed any progress very well in the past.
	KarateKid	I am taking the true progressive stance, you are not. You are selling it out.
	KQuark	My side has history do you really think a healthcare bill will ever get all we want. That’s a bit naive and refusing to observe history.
	KarateKid	I am drawing the line, no gains for Pro Life forces, plain and simple.
	KarateKid	Well, it’s going to be in there. What then?
	KQuark	Woman will be the ones who make the compromises and that’s just silly to say I’m throwing women under the bus supporting universal healthcare. I don’t support the Stupak amendment.
	KarateKid	Why is your side making excuses about how the bill isn’t what we wanted, but….?
	KarateKid	If you were poor, where are you going to get the money to buy insurance if you can barely make ends meet?
	KQuark	More speculation than I offered mehtinks.
	KarateKid	Why would you be so willing to throw women under the bus?
	KarateKid	What?
	KQuark	Why would people vote for Dems if they don’t act just like Repubs?
	KarateKid	The Stupak Amendment stays or the Blue Dogs will not vote for the bill, as it was they got it through by only two. Cao will also not vote for any bill without Stupak. The female Dems will not vote for it with its inclusion. So what makes you think this bill will be put on BHO’s desk?
	KQuark	I have history on my side not blind speculation.
	KQuark	Why did Dems lose congress in 1994 after failing on healthcare then?
	KQuark	The Dems will find a compromise on Stupak and female congresspeople will be the last people blocking insurance for the uninsured.
	KarateKid	You’re speculating.
	KarateKid	I don’t think they will lose Congress either way.
	KQuark	Again if healthcare does not pass Dems will get killed in 2010
	KarateKid	The female members of Congress are up in arms and will not sign on to any bill that contains the Stupak Amendment.
	KQuark	Will the Dems lose congress if healthcare does not pass this year?
	KarateKid	I stated my answer to your latest query. What makes you think there will be a bill to sign?
	KarateKid	You guys are jumping around too much.
	AdLib	KarateKid, my bad, I should have said, assuming that a bill is passed by the House and Senate, wouldn’t Obama’s veto cause the Dems to lose seats in 2010 and 2012?
	KQuark	Dems have to prove they can govern. If they fail and do nothing they will properly be just like Repubs. Maybe not the party of NO but the party of we can’t get it done.
	KQuark	That just proves it’s a good bill for the people.
	KarateKid	KQ, now you’re speculating about 2010.
	KarateKid	Just today, BigPharma stated its opposition to the bill and vowed to fight it.
	KQuark	We would absolutely lose seats and any chance at progress. Conservative dems will be replace by more conservative Repubs. History is on my side here for sure.
	KarateKid	AdLib, what makes you think there will be a bill for him to sign?
	KarateKid	Everyone I speak to about this, whether on line or off line, who is for the bill, always start off by saying “well, yeah, the bill stinks, but…..
	KQuark	Private insurance would just love pocketing all billions of extra dollars in profits they will make in continuing business as usual for another 15 years. I put it to you do you really want to extend the hold private insurance has on Americans for 15 years?
	AdLib	KarateKid, if President Obama doesn’t sign the bill, wouldn’t that make them lose seats in the 2010 and 2012 elections?
	KQuark	There is actually much more. Guaranteed coverage for preexisting conditions with no lifetime maximum coverage. No expanding Medicaid to cover families 133% about the poverty level instead of at the poverty level. No subsidies for the working or middle classes up to 3-4X the poverty level making even private insurance more affordable. No portable healthcare plans so if you lose or change your job you will not loss and probably will not have to change your healthcare coverage. Private insura
	KarateKid	AdLib, my answer to your question is this. This bill in its final form will be less acceptable to all. I would suggest that the good things about this bill, 3 that I will address, are the pre-existing condition, the cap and the inability to lose your coverage because of illness can be raised at any time in the House, without the mandate, without the public option. The rescinding of the anti trust exemption can also be brought up in a standard House bill.
	KQuark	Yes I said it’s a terrible compromise and I would like it changed but it’s a compromise that should not block healthcare for the unisured.
	AdLib	KQuark, but if the The Stupak-Pitts Amendment is signed into law, it will be the biggest setback to abortion rights in decades.
	KQuark	Joe Lieberman and his ilk say now is not the time for healthcare reform. They want to kick the can down the road to next year or the years after. In reality if healthcare reform is not done soon we will go through another couple of presidential election cycles, problems will just get worse and worse and in about 15 years people will be at a worse point for reform than we are now. I always thought progressives wanted progress and did not want to kick our problems like the proverbial can down t
	AdLib	Thanks javaz, I will comment in each post.
	KQuark	The Stupak is in the bill now and it’s a terrible compromise but no worse than the compromises in the first Social Security bill.
	javaz	People do not know to click on the debate thing, might want to tell them
	KQuark	Trying to say that we cannot get a public option out of the Senate should not be part of this debate since it’s speculation at this point.
	KarateKid	It is included in the bill, KQ. There is no avoiding it.
	javaz	Please let me interrupt.
	KQuark	In this case I agree with the president, the healthcare bill is not an abortion bill and conflating the two by either rescinding abortion rights or adding abortion coverage that did not exist before will unnecessarily sidetrack the main cause of universal healthcare. Do you think the healthcare bill should EXPAND abortion coverage of elective procedures? Should healthcare cover all elective procedures like plastic surgery?
	KarateKid	I think we are getting ahead of ourselves. First, the Senate has to pass its bill, then it has to be merged. It does not look good for the public option in the Senate, and at best we are going to be faced with a trigger. The Stupak Amendment will have to be included or the conservative Dems in both houses will not pass it. Therefore, we are not going to have a final bill that will look anything like this bill.
	AdLib	KQuark, what if the The Stupak-Pitts Amendment is passed along with this bill? Should Pres. Obama sign it?
	AdLib	A question to KarateKid, if this bill is not passed, how do you propose the Dems proceed?
	KQuark	You are not alone in principles that we share but you are talking about voting for the interest of Goldman Sachs types who know any reform is bad for them.
	AdLib	I will ask questions though you and KQuark are free to discuss back and forth.
	KarateKid	AdLib, are you going to be moderating this? How do we proceed?
	KQuark	But n 15 years if we do nothing now do you really think the position of private insurers will be that much weaker or after the Democratic congress is voted out in 2010 because they did not deliver universal healthcare that people will elect MORE progressives?
	KQuark	We may deserve more if we were a progressive nation.
	KQuark	I cannot imagine telling the tens of millions of uninsured Americans that the Democratic congress just cannot agree on universal healthcare now but we may have better luck in 15 years or so. Maybe in 15 years after 60 million Americans are so do not have healthcare insurance there may be enough outrage to pass a little better bill than they could now.
	KarateKid	I want to start out by stating that unlike the Republicans who oppose any reform, I am not for this bill for the opposite reason; this is far less than we deserve. There are many issues we personally face and that affects our views about this bill. I happen to think that there are too many questions. I am not defending any position, I am stating my views and I am not alone.
	KQuark	While we all agree in principle that we WANT more which means single payer for all, you are in the untenable position of defending against what Voltaire warned us against the “best of all possible worlds” thinking while I have the real world on my side. During the Age of Enlightenment when all the great minds were making up their Utopian systems one thinker reminded the intelligentsia that we are still dealing with very imperfect human beings. There are no perfect governmental systems and
	AdLib	In the meantime, I’d like to welcome all our guests for tonight’s debate. After the debate we will open the chat up to all members to discuss the issue and the debate.
	AdLib	KQuark, please type your opening statement and send it after KarateKid posts his.
	AdLib	KarateKid, please make an opening statement.
	AdLib	Okay then. Thanks to KarateKid and KQuark for volunteering to debate on our debut of Debate Night Live. It’s 7:00 so let’s begin.
	KQuark	Greetings and salutations my learned opponent and PlanetPOV colleague. I feel empathy for you my friend because you are in the unenviable position of siding with the party of NO, conservadems and now Goldman Sachs has advised private insurers to go all in and block healthcare reform because they know any progress towards giving all Americans access to universal healthcare so they can no longer pick and choose who they cover which is great loss to their stranglehold on most Americans.
	KarateKid	Good evening my friend.
	KQuark	Yup.
	AdLib	Aha! KQuark, you’re here!
	AdLib	More likely he’s rushing back from the 7-11 with a sixer of Mickey’s big mouths.
	KarateKid	I hope he isn’t copying all the stats….and planning to hit me over the head with it.
	AdLib	I should have hired a standup comic to do warm up before the debate.
	AdLib	Five minutes to go, KQuark, you here yet?
	AdLib	Five minutes to go, KQuark, you here yet?
	AdLib	Excellent! You’ve got the idea!
	KarateKid	Drinkin’ a beer. LOL
	AdLib	Hey KK? ALl warmed up and got your game face on?
	KarateKid	Checking in, AdLib
	AdLib	Debate Night Live debuts on this Friday, Nov. 13th @ 7 pm PST!