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AdLib On June - 28 - 2013
AdLib is online.
  • AdLib : Thanks CL, you sleep well too!

  • choicelady : Always glad to do it when I can! Yes, you stay cool, too. This climate change is for the, well, hot weather lovers. Be careful out there! Good night – sweet dreams!

  • AdLib : Thanks CL, I should be here but very kind of you to offer. You are the official Vox Populi Guest Host now!

  • choicelady : Hope to see you on Vox next week. Will we be having it? If you’re taking the weekend off for the long Fourth, let me know. I can sub in again. No plans.

  • AdLib : Heat wave here too! Stay cool and have a great weekend!

  • choicelady : I should let you get some rest. What’s your weather like there? We’re slated for about 106-108 for tomorrow, and that’s just not fun. Hope you all are much cooler!

  • AdLib : No problem, I don’t blame you for getting upset.

  • choicelady : Thanks, AdLib – you’re a mensch letting me whine!

  • choicelady : Yeah – as you can imagine, Nancy’s not my ‘go to’ role model!

  • choicelady : I appreciate your letting me blow off steam. If I’d not found that demand from the contractor I’d NOT be this angry. I’d pretty much gotten past what happened on the idiot conference call.

  • AdLib : The only time you might compare yourself to Nancy Reagan!

  • choicelady : Well – thank you so much for letting me whine. While I was locked out of Vox I found the demand to change our start dates and just said NO in a very Nancy Reagan kind of way.

  • AdLib : That is your sword!

  • choicelady : I think what’s sharpening – I can feel the strop already – is my TONGUE!

  • choicelady : They will let us bill the first two weeks ONCE – then it’s monthly. But I don’t understand this at all – it’s going to be hard on everyone.

  • AdLib : Hope so but you have to keep your sword sharpened and handy anyway.

  • choicelady : Once we get going, it should be better, but the ramp up is going to be dreadful.

  • AdLib : Oh.

  • choicelady : The state of CA always has had a 45 day window. Sucks.

  • AdLib : How is that legal? A month seems like the max you could do.

  • choicelady : It’s not even all that clear to me. I started to look at their web site – it’s very poorly organized. I could have done better, and I am well known as a technological idiot. It’s worrying.

  • choicelady : AND they pay after 45 days. That makes our Education staff WAIT a month and a half after the first day of work. Where is the logic in THAT?

  • AdLib : Nope, the main knock against the state exchanges and the ACA is that no one understands it…and Lee can’t communicate that to others? That’s not acceptable.

  • choicelady : It did not inspire confidence when an ally in LA told me she’d gone to the public meeting with Peter Lee, head of Covered CA. She said NOTHING he said was clear, he could not or did not answer questions well, and everyone left MORE confused than they had been. NOT auspicious, is it?

  • AdLib : If they won’t let you and the other folks do what needs to be done, ensure the trust and faith of the people in this, then you do need to band together and force them to back off.

  • choicelady : Thank you! At the core of this project lies the capacity to either re-energize public confidence or kill it entirely. We all were selected because we are ‘trusted messengers’ with key populations. If our folks think we are delivering unclear info or make them confused, it’s really not WE who will not be trusted – it’s health reform itself. THAT is a disaster. We all believe in it. We want it to work. They are not helping us to do that.

  • AdLib : I know you won’t let these consultants run you and HC down. Thank goodness for that, glad you’re there!

  • choicelady : I do understand, and you are entirely correct! They are a disaster. They are violating their OWN RFP requirements!!! But all of us – 48 groups and who knows how many subcontractors – are all hung out to dry. They won’t be. Unless Alice Huffman and I take them to the cleaners! I will not be their sacrificial lamb, and she – head of NAACP – certainly will not either. There are others equally as pissed off. We will rebel and go public if we have to.

  • AdLib : CL – My point about Halliburton is just how private industry is not the magic bullet to take care of things.

  • choicelady : Taking care of real business? What is this mythology of which you speak…???

  • choicelady : OK – these folks can’t quite do Haliburton type damage, but if the program, health care, is to be a success, one of the keys is leaving some discretion to us about what we say AND HOW WE SAY IT. Telling us – and they will sneak their own people into our trainings – how to do this is counterproductiv e. We are the best guides to delivering info to our own folks.

  • AdLib : Sounds like people who don’t know what they’re doing so they focus on “how”. If you’re busy taking care of real business, you don’t have the time for that kind of private industry BS.

  • AdLib : Anyone remember Halliburton in Iraq?

  • choicelady : During all the Booz Allen fiasco – this kept coming to mind. I have BEEN a private contractor for small federal projects, but we had clear directions, and it was WE who had the work to accomplish. We did not get a series of late changes – we just did the work and did it well. These people are obsessed with the minutiae of it all – they put out a STYLE manual for how we ‘write’ about Covered CA. WRITE? To whom will we WRITE? It’s a total joke. No BASIC materials but they have time for a STYLE MANUAL???

  • AdLib : Hasn’t it been proven that private industry is not smarter than public?

  • AdLib : So the contractor may be entitled to use tests to qualify people and orgs? If that’s the case, this is why I said, it’s always a nightmare when government delegates too much power to contractors.

  • choicelady : I have taken a lot of time off over the past four weeks. I was nauseated making all the changes – each one took me FOUR DAYS. I worked all weekend through three weekends to do the first revisions, then managed to get the last one done in two week days, but it left me absolutely a wreck.

  • AdLib : Man, what a waste of time, having to dance around with all of this!

  • choicelady : I actually have no idea whose exam it is. Possibly Covered CA but more likely another wing job from the contractor. I can’t even remember their name – they’re based in Fresno and impossible to reach.

  • choicelady : Under outcry and pressure they will have simultaneous translation for three of the 31 sessions for Spanish. THREE! And we have a significant number of people who speak Korean, Hmong, Lao, Cambodian – all of which they required of us and NONE of whom they are prepared to train. Lucky for us at the Council, all our folks are English proficient. Whew.

  • AdLib : Whose exam is this, the Feds?

  • AdLib : That is the kind of bureaucratic confusion and incompetence we’ve come to expect. How hard is it to envision that some folks might speak, I don’t know, Spanish in CA?

  • choicelady : BTW – no one knew about the exam for Educators until last week. It’s not part of the RFP, nowhere in any of the materials does it say that, and it was sprung on everyone at the Management Training. The non-English speaking groups are besides themselves with worry their people won’t pass.

  • choicelady : Several groups with Educators who are NOT English proficient because the goal was to HAVE people with indigenous language skills available are just frantic. The trainings and materials are ONLY in English. This is a disaster for them – the Educators have to take an online exam to pass and be certified. And no one has made the 300-page guide available in anything but ENGLISH. Yowie.

  • AdLib : Sounds good! That’s what it’s going to take.

  • choicelady : Herb knows me well enough to know I don’t bitch unnecessarily and that I keep MY promises. The other person who will do the same is the head of the NAACP. She started the angry confrontation last week in our Management Training – she takes no hostages!

  • AdLib : Excellent, that would be a great card to play if they keep this up.

  • choicelady : It’s a CYA no doubt about it. But they err on the fact that the Region IX Director of HHS is a friend of mine. I start whining to him, he will listen.

  • AdLib : Are they doing this purposely so if the state or feds come down on them for not hitting targets, they can point at all of you?

  • choicelady : This is the grant that they have made me – and all of us doing statewide projects – revise FIVE TIMES. They cannot give us clear parameters. I do not know what I’m supposed to promise – am I being paid for outreach to 100,000 people, for education (longer time with people), or for actual ‘leads’ from 100,000 people? I have no idea, and they steadfastly refuse to make it clear.

  • AdLib : Give someone an inch of power and they’ll take a mile.

  • choicelady : What part of “contract” do they not understand? We follow all the rules. Now they must as well.

  • AdLib : Agreed! This isn’t their fiefdom, they shouldn’t be able to jerk everyone around.

  • choicelady : That’s a kind understatement! I did not even wait to get Rick’s approval – I just said NO. They confirmed the dates. Why should WE change?

  • AdLib : That’s messed up!

  • choicelady : Oh I sooooo agree with you! The contractor has highly rigid rules for us but has prepared NOTHING by which we can meet their demands! They won’t pay anyone until they go through the training and take a test for certification. So we got CONFIRMATION of our Sacramento trainings two days ago – and the head person just wrote late today to demand we change to a week later. I have refused based on their confirmation that led us to make employment offers to people. NO NO NO NO I will not change this!

  • AdLib : CL – Well, don’t risk anything, wait until you feel it is an appropriate time.

  • AdLib : Even so, hiring experienced people instead of contracting with a company seems like a better idea.

  • choicelady : If I can figure out how to discuss it without revealing myself, you’re on. I probably should not do anything until we actually get up and running to see what happens, but by later in August I’ll have a handle on it. I do think an expose may be in order – even the head of the state NAACP is boiling mad. There may be a palace revolt from a number of us!

  • choicelady : The health care plans themselves are not managed by them – it’s the grant to do the outreach and training and probably the enrollment work. The admin of health care is with the state, just not the outreach which is a $43 million grant from the feds to the state. At least I HOPE this contractor has nothing to do with the actual health care management! I don’t think so.

  • AdLib : Only if it wouldn’t compromise your participation but a post on what’s going on would be very interesting. I don’t understand though why even in CA, the same dumb mistakes of hiring contractors to run gov’t programs keeps going on. They almost always become headaches.

  • choicelady : It’s being managed by a contractor, yes. So all our work on outreach and ed is handled by them. They are SO disorganized, and we are being jerked around. Not just us – everyone. It would take all night just to explain what went wrong TODAY.

  • AdLib : What do you mean, the state is using a private contractor?

  • choicelady : And here I thought it was all free market capitalists! Speaking of which – the PRIVATE CONTRACTOR handling the new health program is simply screwing up EVERYTHING. I just cannot believe how dreadful they are!

  • AdLib : Hope it’s all ironed out. I hate when my computer rebels! Damn socialists!

  • AdLib : Hey CL! Got your email, sorry about the trouble you’ve been having getting on Vox! Is it fixed?

  • choicelady : Well I got in just in time to say goodnight! Timing. It’s all timing! Have a great weekend AdLib!

  • AdLib : Night KT!

  • AdLib : During OWS I was advocating a fund for goggles and respirators. Cheap and effective. And wearing longsleeve shirts!

  • KillgoreTrout : Tear gas can be guarded against.

  • AdLib : I will, pal!

  • KillgoreTrout : Take it easy Ad and keep thinking about a new approach.

  • AdLib : Much better. Though you never know about the tear gas…

  • KillgoreTrout : No camping permits to worry about. No sleeping in the cold.

  • AdLib : Cool! Looking forward to it as always! Have a great evening and I’ll see you at the Music Thread tomorrow!

  • KillgoreTrout : Well, I think it’s to get busy on the music thread. I think I’ve come up with a fitting one.

  • AdLib : KT – Yep, it might feel a bit new and novel to the young people who were part of OWS or wanted to be…but were disappointed by there being little focus on goals.

  • KillgoreTrout : Good point Ad. I certainly agree. I think there are probably many many young people who would love such an opportunity. The ones who feel they missed something in the old civil rights marches.

  • AdLib : Let’s think about it, I do like the idea.

  • KillgoreTrout : I don’t know, more brain power needed.

  • AdLib : And that kind of grass roots activism would be a good thing in this era of electronic distancing.

  • AdLib : As long as you can get a permit for a march, that’s true.

  • KillgoreTrout : More of the Martin Luther King approach.

  • KillgoreTrout : I’m thinking marches instead of sit-ins. They can’t stop people from marching if they break no laws.

  • AdLib : Night Murph, stay cool and get some rest!

  • AdLib : KT – Yes, lots of reasons they were problematic but add to that, local governments decided when there was enough protesting and used militarized police to end protests. What Constitution?

  • KillgoreTrout : Have a good one Murph.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Well …. to be continued…..ha ve an early morning meeting…a cool five days ahead…needed

  • KillgoreTrout : OWS had no real leadership and too many infiltraters. It was good cause but a poor effort.

  • AdLib : And Mayors.

  • AdLib : Well…I think most protests would succeed but I do remember what happened to OWS when Governors decided they had enough.

  • KillgoreTrout : We teach them about registering so they can do it themselves. Subversively if necessary. They can’t outlaw protests without violating the 1st amendment and possibly the 14th.

  • AdLib : KT – Remember how Rick Scott in FL got laws passed preventing outside organizations from registering people? It got blocked thanks to Section 4 of the VRA which is now gone. I could imagine Perry doing that in TX and other Repub Govs too.

  • KillgoreTrout : Fight astro-turf with real grassroots efforts.

  • KillgoreTrout : What a lovely sight that would be. We could recruit out of state volunteers to go to these states and organize and educate. Run fund drives to help get the poor the needed IDs. That would take a lot of organizing, especially in these complacent times.

  • AdLib : KT – You saw how freaked out Rick Perry got from just 150 people protesting in the legislature…im agine 100,000!

  • AdLib : Murph – PA is more of a purple state that leans Dem…but has some pretty RW Repub areas. That is a state where it is a back and forth battle but strongly blue states aren’t having that issue on Voter ID, since its only purpose is to suppress Dem votes, it makes no sense for anyone other than Repubs to push so hard for it.

  • AdLib : Murph – We can take some confidence from the AA turnout in 2012 that was a rebuff to the Voter ID laws. Hopefully, this will again piss off so many that they will get out there and vote.

  • KillgoreTrout : Maybe it’s time for more marches in the south, were most new voter ID laws will be passed. A Massive info campaign to help educate those that will be the most affected.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….yes to red states, but in all but the most blue of blue states the NO to voter id’s approach is just too easy to label as a Dem scam…..look at Pennsylvania…i t keeps coming up.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT one reality is that those who most need to vote are among those who vote the least- in some cases because they cannot but in too many cases because they are not motivated enough to take on the process and do it. That is where folks like you allude to come in…..voter rights IS, at its heart, the core of civil rights activism.

  • KillgoreTrout : Maybe circumvent the intention of Voter ID laws.

  • KillgoreTrout : Maybe we can come up with some of the old civil rights advocates methods of getting the word out and assistance to those that are most effected by this new ruling.

  • AdLib : Murph – In red states, that’s unfortunately true, the ALEC and Koch money has bought its way into the minds of too many. Here in CA, a Voter ID bill would fail big time and I think that would be the case in many blue states. So you are right, in a red state, it’s a whole different ballgame and has to be played differently.

  • KillgoreTrout : I guess if we can’t go through them, we can go around them. Voter ID drives and education programs to help better inform minorites in these states that are implimenting the new decision.

  • AdLib : KT – The usual when it comes to Federal matters, sign petitions, call Congresspeople, contribute to or support candidates who support fixing the VRA. Otherwise, since it’s a federal law, nothing we can really do locally unless you live in a red state…then work to get rid of the Repub legislature and governor and replace them with those who will get rid of Voter ID.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib. Of course what you say is true but that does not matter. Having fought this for two years, I have come to the conclusion that the facts do not matter. In the popular mind there is a “of course, it’s commonsense” associated with the notion that without ID’s there is massive cheating going on. SO….I have adopted the Georgia approach. It is drawing supporters since it places the GOP in the position of having to be accountable to a much broader base than they are wont to serve.

  • KillgoreTrout : To help change…

  • AdLib : I wonder how much money has been spent by all states combined on fighting the legal batters for and implementing Voter ID across the US. Imagine if all that money was instead spent on schools, police, fireman, infrastructure, feeding poor children, jobs, etc. Sad how Repubs wail about government spending but when it comes to their agenda, no price is too high.

  • KillgoreTrout : I was just wondering what a private citizen can do to change the SC’s decison on the VRA? It’s seems like a pretty big obstacle.

  • AdLib : The sad thing about this though Murph is that Voter ID is the real fraud, an unneeded expense to states that should be using that money to help those in need. So while the co-opting is a smart strategy, it is a pity that this fraudulent program is being allowed to drain money from taxpayers to provide a service no one needs or wants. In the end, it’s a scam. I do however recognize that with Repubs in power, Dems can’t stop it without time consuming suits so adapting to it does make sense.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Good article on the George voter ID program. «link»

  • AdLib : KT – They would lose out big time if we let TX go but of course that would never happen. Some days though, I do wonder what it would be like if The South had at least won a standoff in the Civil War and were a Confederacy today. They would be just devastated since it’s the other states that generate the most revenue and have the least need.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib – my thoughts on VRA are in my “article” from last week….so let me add a little something. The Dems are going to have to take a more proactive approach in the states now excused by the vacating of the Section 4 formula. Take a look at how the Dems took on and took over the Voter Id card movement in Georgia. By cosponsoring it as a “means to ensure that ALL Georgians entitled to vote got to vote” they were able to kill the GOP talking point about the Dems as pro fraud. Once that was done, the Dems pushed for and got a two year phase in, coordination by the DMV with all of its facilities and mobile centers to supply licensing, cost free for citizens, a massive awareness and education effort, and reasonable id requirements (with the means to grant excepts based on special circumstances- like the 90 year old born in her home by a midwife who has lived in the state all of her life and is known to one and all as Miss Hattie)

  • KillgoreTrout : That’s a sad truth, for sure.

  • AdLib : KT – There are a lot of good people in TX (like AB and some of my wife’s family and friends) but they are outnumbered right now by the haters and small minded.

  • KillgoreTrout : Maybe we should just let them leave the Union.

  • KillgoreTrout : Well some will get what they deserve, but I feel bad for those who won’t.

  • AdLib : And TX is no place to be poor, services for the poor, public school graduating rates and the social safety net in general are being torn apart each year.

  • AdLib : Just think what TX will be like in 10 years with at least thousands of unwanted pregnancies, no health care for over 25% of the population, minorities being oppressed as 2nd class citizens, what a nightmare! Assuming it will be at least 20 years until it turns purple or even blue, millions of Texans are going to go through hell between now and then.

  • KillgoreTrout : Yeah, that’s probably true.

  • KillgoreTrout : Worse than Mississippi.

  • AdLib : KT – I don’t know, TX still hasn’t got a big enough minority vote to turn Dem. But when they do, and the day is coming, the Perry types will be very sorry.

  • AdLib : Between the racist voting ID and redistricting going on in TX and the anti-abortion madness, TX is becoming the toilet of the US and the most backwards state in the union.

  • KillgoreTrout : Perry just may be cutting his own throat.

  • AdLib : Night AB! And if it’s not too much trouble, can you turn TX blue by next year?

  • KillgoreTrout : Smack!

  • KillgoreTrout : Yeah, no one saw that coming! ;)

  • AlphaBitch : Mwah. (That’s a screen kiss for each of you)

  • AlphaBitch : KT -what a shock, eh?

  • AlphaBitch : OK, troops. Off to sleep. I have to get up early tomorrow. See you gators later! Don’t use all the fish guts. Mosquitos are bad here now.

  • KillgoreTrout : Yeah AB I hear Perry jumped all over the chance to discriminate.

  • KillgoreTrout : Try not to think about it Ad! Whoa!

  • AlphaBitch : Ad, I am pissed off beyond belief on VRA. Look what is already happening here in TX.

  • KillgoreTrout : Polar opposite decisions Ad. The SC who voted for that pretend there is no longer racism in this country. They know there is, for sure. They are among them.

  • AdLib : AB – Of course, shampee!!! I’m afraid to ask what you’ll use for conditioner…

  • KillgoreTrout : Growing up in Ohio, I never had the chance to know any Native Americans. just imported Europeans.

  • AdLib : So what do you think of the Voting Rights Act decision coming just before the DOMA decision? My main complaint is characterizing the SCOTUS as having different views, only one man had a different view between VRA and DOMA, Anthony Kennedy, so the SCOTUS isn’t that deliberating, just one man didn’t conform to his usual vote with the conservative 4.

  • AlphaBitch : Personally, I like the Hopi best among the Pueblo tribes.

  • KillgoreTrout : Shame on me!

  • AlphaBitch : KT Yes sir, you did say that.

  • AlphaBitch : Ad – that’s my NA shampoo. Only they used pee.

  • KillgoreTrout : Is that for a golden shower? Did I say that?

  • AlphaBitch : I actually have a friend that listed “Native American” on the “Religion?” question on the hospital admittance form. Caused quite a stir, as they did not know how to contact someone to come pray over her, if need be. Fortunately it was not.

  • AdLib : AB – Shampee???

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, and we called them savages. I think it was the other way around.

  • AdLib : This is a big difference though between the fundamentalist Christians who believe that humans must dominate the Earth whenever and wherever possible (see: GOP) and many Native American religious beliefs that we coexist and need to respect the rest of nature.

  • choicelady : Murph – like anything, each culture, each nation, each tribe is different, but we lumped them together and determined our way was better. We needed to learn a lot from them. Now we are.

  • KillgoreTrout : The Spanish priests tried to stop the pueblo from practicing their own religion. The Pueblo tried to practice both. The priests just went too far.

  • AlphaBitch : P’rhaps it’s time for me to drink a bunch of water and crash out as well. After all, I need to shampee tomorrow!

  • AdLib : Night glenn, sleep well!

  • KillgoreTrout : Have a great weekend glenn

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Bye Glenn

  • AlphaBitch : Nighty night glenn. Naughty girl.

  • AlphaBitch : Your NAs were nicer than mine, Ad. Mine stunk of fish guts in the sun and pee hair.

  • AdLib : One other not so fun fact about CA NAs: “The Population of Native California was reduced by 90% during the 19th century—from over 200,000 in the late 19th century to approximate 15,000 at the end of the century.” So, maybe they had a reason to be pissed off a little.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I wasn’t faulting the Pueblos. I just meant that you can only push people to a certain point, then they’re going to push back. The priests fucked up, royally.

  • glenn : Alright, folks, my turn to call it a night. Wish you all a pleasant weekend. Looking forward to the Weekend Music Thread and the Sunday funnies. Take care, all, and sleep tight.

  • AdLib : AB – Some info about CA NAs from Wiki: “The indigenous people practiced various forms of forest gardening in the forests, grasslands, mixed woodlands, and wetlands to ensure availability of food and medicine plants. They controlled fire on a regional scale to create a low-intensity fire ecology that prevented larger, catastrophic fires and sustained a low-density “wild” agriculture in loose rotation.” Today, the US doesn’t even do that.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- I hear what you saying about indigenous peoples but we have a tendency to romanticize them esp. those who actually displaced, often through war, a people who occupied land eventually held by them. Samoa, which is perhaps best represented by the culture of Savai’i is among the most pacific in the world- communal and based in family relatinships devoted to the principles of alofa (love), tautua (service), fa’aaloalo (respect) and usita’i (duty).

  • choicelady : KT – do NOT blame them. I had a friend who bought the house attached to the San Gabriel Mission that was the priests’ home. It has an escape hatch in the pantry leading to a tunnel that took them from the Mission to the house securely in case of, you know, pissed off indigenous people. I cannot go to the missions – I find the history of violence and slavery against indigenous people unbearable.

  • glenn : CL–I truly don’t think Deen is evil–I truly think she is just clueless as to why there is such a “fuss” about her. Although, I also think the “fuss” has been blown way out of proportion!

  • AlphaBitch : CL: Maybe the Karankawas and Tonkawa didn’t die after all, but rather became Lee Atwater. See? At – water. All coastal and everything.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, oh, I wasn’t faulting them. I just meant to illustrate that even the most peaceful people will push back when they are pushed too far.

  • choicelady : AB – American indigenous people were cannibals? Wow. News to me. Thought that was the GOP…

  • KillgoreTrout : Yeah, but the Pueblos did finally kill most of the priests because the priests wouldn’t allow them to continue to follow thier own religion. Bad move on the priests part.

  • choicelady : glenn – she actually does really good work now on recipes that taste good but that respond to her own crisis – diabetes. I was going to buy her newest book since meds are raising my husband’s blood sugar to ‘prediabetic’ levels, but I think I will look around more…

  • AdLib : KT – I don’t know that I can blame an indigenous people from turning on those who discount their religion and push their religion on them. At the same time, the Padres out here in CA did do a lot to help the NAs who had a rough time living out here in the deserts.

  • AlphaBitch : Oh you guys. The Karankawa and Tonkawa tribes of coastal Texas were the roughest. They would smear fish guts over their bodies to keep the mosquitos from biting. AND they gussied up their hair with urine. They partook in what was called “Secondary Harvest”, meaning they would eat the scarce grains in the salty, sandy soil – then as their digestive systems functioned -would eliminate the seeds and “re=harvest” them. All that, and they were cannibals as well. So that’s where I’m from. You???

  • KillgoreTrout : I have to admit, some southern food is delicious!

  • choicelady : KT – My HERO is Pope the Tewa! He kicked butt! Resisting imperialists does not make you warlike. Makes you smart!

  • choicelady : AdLib – eeeuuuuww.. Even worse.

  • glenn : AdLib and CL–I just love it that the “free market capitalists” are the ones who are dropping Deen like a hot potato. Although her cookbooks are flying off the shelves, I hear.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, probably a Fruedian slip.

  • choicelady : Murph – Thanks – did not know that.

  • AdLib : CL – Scalia on a spit with an apple in his mouth?

  • choicelady : glenn – it’s my understanding she has not used the N word as an adult – she WAS for Obama. That means she has grown some.

  • KillgoreTrout : I think the Pueblos were the most peaceful of all the nations. But, even they turned on the Spanish priests.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice…the Lakota, one of three major subgroups and the largest, was a hunting and warrior culture- very territorial.

  • AdLib : CL – That’s exactly what I get from Deen, not an evil person but someone who is oblivious to the racism she’s matter-of-factly adopted as a child in that kind of environment…an d passed it on to her kids as was done to her. On the other hand, her phony too-white teeth are a bit ironic at this point.

  • choicelady : AdLib – Scalia as a pot sticker just is NOT working for me.

  • choicelady : Murph – but it was not just First Nations people we dismissed. It was all indigenous people many of whom, Samoans and other API folks, had deeply spiritual and highly tranquil societies that we decimated with our cultural and religious imperatives.

  • glenn : CL–I agree, but would add that Paula Deen is a smug, white, thoughtless, Southern person. I’ve seen people defending her who say she “grew up” with “racist” attitudes. I say, it’s time she got over what she “grew up with” and joined us all in the 21st century.

  • KillgoreTrout : AB, memories.

  • KillgoreTrout : I’m sure Paula Deen grew up hearing the “N” word all around her.

  • choicelady : Murph – I was under the impression the Sioux were quite pacific. More preyed upon (Pawnee) than aggressors.

  • AlphaBitch : KT – then why do they need Cialis???

  • AdLib : AB – Let’s hope Scalia leans a bit too far over the vat and becomes the fried pork on a stick that he could be.

  • choicelady : AdLib – oh please. I do not even WANT to think about why Robertson has mouth wrinkles. Serious – way way TMI.

  • KillgoreTrout : AB, only the good die young. Pricks seem to live forever.

  • choicelady : AdLib – what is so sad about Paula Deen is that she supported Obama. Jesse Jackson thinks the Black community should try to rehabilitate her. I think that’s most kind hearted of him. I doubt she’s an evil bitch, just typically smug white thoughtless person.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- Yes to the Algonquin Federation (and no accident that among those native American people’s whose cultures have remained distinctive and yet have adapted are a number of tribal groups within it) but as you start to move South, or West- it is much less the case until you get to the Pueblo and Navajo peoples.

  • KillgoreTrout : Will there be black waiters in neat little white jackets?

  • AdLib : glenn – Oh!!! That’s why Pat Robertson’s got those wrinkles around his mouth!

  • glenn : AB–hey, the only “naughty” I get nowadays is what I can make up, so I try. (I refuse to say I “try hard”). :)

  • AlphaBitch : Ad – let’s hope she makes some fried butter for Scalia. About a ton of it. He’s 77; how much longer can he last???

  • AdLib : Paula Deen may have nothing left but to be The Official Chef and Racial Sensitivity Consultant of the 2016 GOP Iowa Caucuses.

  • choicelady : Good night kes – sorry I got locked out so we could not talk longer! Keep getting stronger every day! Love to you!

  • AlphaBitch : glenn – you naughty!

  • choicelady : Murph – one has only to view the Algonquin Federation to understand that violence was not unknown pre Europeans. But out of that federation came enormous peace AND served as the foundational arrangement for our own form of Federal government.

  • KillgoreTrout : Barump bump CL.

  • glenn : AB–you do know that mouthing too many corn dogs gives you wrinkles around the mouth, don’t you?

  • AdLib : CL – Yes, very funny!

  • KillgoreTrout : That was Paula Deen who wanted the fried butter.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Night Kes

  • AlphaBitch : I think we need to have a photo contest of corndog mouths.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sweet dreams kes. It was good “seeing,” you again.

  • AdLib : Night Kes, so nice to see you here at Vox. Get some rest!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- while intra-tribal life had many of the characteristics you list; in general inter-tribal life was far more contentious and often very violent.

  • choicelady : Speaking of hot dogs, you know the New Yorker cartoon of the yogi buying a hot dog saying, “Make me one with everything.”

  • AdLib : AB – Yep, Bachmann probably did ask that IA corndog to marry her! Or was it that fried stick of butter?

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, they had the good sense not to trash the planet.

  • glenn : Good night Kes, good to “see” you. Enjoy your new computer. Sleep tight!

  • choicelady : AdLib – that’s why a lot of mainstream Protestantism is embracing indigenous views of life, Mother Earth, Gaia, all other faiths that see us as one with nature.

  • AlphaBitch : Oh Kes. I lubs ya. See you soon. Sleep tight.

  • KillgoreTrout : Well, a corn dog is the closest thing to weenie Michelle has seen in years!

  • kesmarn : Well, kids, eleven o’clock here in corn country, and I’m afeerd that my nightowl days are on hold. So I must bid y’all good night!

  • AdLib : CL – Fascinating, the general Native American philosophies were humanitarian, anti-materialist ic, ecological and on and on. They weren’t perfect, they had some issues too but on the whole, a far more peaceful and in tune people.

  • AlphaBitch : CL: Now THAT would make a lovely bumper sticker.

  • glenn : KT–missed last night’s show. Did John take down some pubs?

  • choicelady : AB – TMI, AB. TMI. It was so funny but sooooo gross!

  • AlphaBitch : KT – no, not yet. Everything is recorded but I’ve had no time for the T.V.

  • AlphaBitch : How could you, CL? It was a classic.

  • KillgoreTrout : Did anybody see last night Daily Show? Hilarious.

  • choicelady : AB – OMG – I’d forgotten Michelle and the corn dog!

  • AlphaBitch : I don’t remember him glenn, but I kept away from the ROTC boys.

  • choicelady : AdLib – you’re on! And I agree – leave the weiners to Perry. The hot dog ones, not the NY ex Congressman ones.

  • AlphaBitch : AdLib – how about corn dogs? Didn’t Bachmann do a number on one in Iowa??

  • glenn : AB–Was Perry a BMOC, or was he a jerk back then, too?

  • AlphaBitch : Baaa….baaaa… .baaa…Perhaps the lady chorus will sing to him from the capitol June 30th/July 1st.

  • KillgoreTrout : Rather fitting for someone who thinks bestiality is the next new thing.

  • AdLib : CL – Why don’t we co-host Vox next week and like a hot dog eating contest, see who can marry the most people? One rule though, no marrying hot dogs, that’s Rick Santorum’s gig.

  • kesmarn : You and Lady Gaga, Frennie…with the bacon wardrobe.

  • glenn : Ad–“May you weave your lives together in happiness.”

  • AlphaBitch : CL: If I can find any extries (as they say here), I’ll send you one.

  • choicelady : KT – well there you go. He knows his sheep.

  • AlphaBitch : I know KT. I went to his same school. Around the same time.

  • choicelady : AB – that is the grossest and funniest bumper sticker maybe EVER!

  • KillgoreTrout : AB, Perry does have a degree in Animal Husbandry. Seriously.

  • AlphaBitch : Frennie, I need to email you a lovely photo. Bacon, bacon and more bacon. I just bought a bacon tee shirt today…

  • AdLib : “Governor Rick Perry, I now pronounce you man and alpaca!”

  • choicelady : Murph and AdLib – Protestant missionaries discovered, albeit belatedly, that for all their rules, rites, rituals, regulations, the people they were trying to convert were closer to the truth. Big shock, major rethink over the last century.

  • AlphaBitch : Oh you guys. I already made the bumper sticker that had Perry’s idiotic face and his quote “When I’m in…..I’m in all the way!” and underneath (as Rick Perry has had to explain to numerous unsuspecting women, men and sheep)

  • AdLib : Murph – I do think that the argument can be made that religions such as the Babylonians’ Gaia beliefs and Native Americans’ beliefs in many spirits led to a more peaceful people.

  • glenn : Murph–thanks. I thought that’s who it was.

  • kesmarn : Yes, and bacon sammiches, Frennie.

  • choicelady : glenn – “marrying” a sheep is a long standing tradition of cowboys of which Perry is a MAJOR wannbe. All hat. No cattle.

  • AlphaBitch : Kes – does he also give sparkle ponies?

  • choicelady : OK – maybe this works. AdLib – you and I will have to vie for who gets to marry someone first. I’ve been asked to officiate on provisional certificate for a same sex couple in Sept. Race to be relevant!

  • KillgoreTrout : glenn it was Henny Youngman.

  • glenn : Ad–sounds good to me. Let Perry marry his sheep if he wants to. As long as the sheep is a consenting adult sheep.

  • kesmarn : AdLib, I think you can also grant pardons and overrule the Supreme Court when you’re moderator.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn…Henny Yougman said it.

  • glenn : Ad–I was going to go with the old joke….”take my wife… please”, but couldn’t remember who said it.

  • AdLib : glenn – Then as I said at the beginning, “Weddings for everybody!”

  • KillgoreTrout : Anything that is NOT considered the “one true god.” that simple belief has wreak most of the havoc in this world.

  • kesmarn : I think I kinda like the idea of the court jester as the challenger to the king — a little more light-hearted…

  • glenn : Ad–I thought, as moderator, you can pretty much do what you want, right?

  • AdLib : glenn – My problem is that I have plenty of people who would volunteer to give me away but no one who would take me. I’m starting to get the idea that something’s not quite right about that…

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- which is why the 1st century idea of Satan as demon, devil, fallen angel…adopted by Christianity is not congruent with the earlier understanding when Yahweh was understood to be one of many deities and therefore in need of good counsel. I think that is healthier myself.

  • kesmarn : Me, me!

  • glenn : Kes–Or, can I give one of you away?

  • KillgoreTrout : Yeah, that is my impression. A necessity.

  • AdLib : Hey, since I’m the moderator at Vox tonight, is that like being captain of the ship, can I marry whatever couples want to be married?

  • kesmarn : You betcha, glenn. You can be mom of BOTH brides.

  • glenn : Kes–Can I be mother of the bride or bride?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT- but the SATAN was not evil. He/She was a agency within the court of the High King- a noble creature doing his/her job.

  • KillgoreTrout : Green ketchup? Ohhhh No.

  • AlphaBitch : Wow – let me read up on this Satan thing (known as Shaton in Dari and/or Arabic)

  • AdLib : Murph – Unfortunately though, in later religions, the concept of being contrary to or questioning the leaders was heresy and an attack on the religion so it makes perfect sense that the role of Satan would be seen as evil.

  • AlphaBitch : glenn – you can be anything you want to be in the Kes&AB wedding of the century.

  • KillgoreTrout : Well, god does need a satan. He wouldn’t be all good without satan. Have to have a point of reference.

  • kesmarn : Jinx, glenn.

  • AlphaBitch : KT – yeppers. And not that green ketchup either. Yuck!

  • kesmarn : Awww…that would be cute, Frennie. And the Pup could be ring-bearer.

  • glenn : AB–Awww-I wanted to be the flower girl. Can I be the ring bearer?

  • KillgoreTrout : You need the Ketchup?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : AB- I too am out of breath on a regular basis.

  • AlphaBitch : Kes – maybe he’ll be the Flower Girl.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….true but the intriguing thing about the concept of the Satan in Job, and in Wisdom literature in general, is that it imagines a good who is in process- who is making decisions based on a variety of thinking- a good who is not omniscient.

  • glenn : Hey Murph

  • AdLib : AB – We lost the pause button but we have a “applause” button if that helps.

  • KillgoreTrout : Well AB you have good taste!

  • AlphaBitch : Murph – I need to catch up. Where’s the pause button here???

  • kesmarn : The Blov can be best man.

  • KillgoreTrout : AB, G R O A N! ;)

  • AdLib : Murph – Most religions do have a dualistic philosophy and they also incorporate the symbols/holidays /history of others as part of the usurping process in the old days so not so unusual that Satan’s role of contrarian was adopted and adapted by Christianity.

  • AlphaBitch : Yeppers Kes. I’d marry you in a heartbeat. But what about the Blov??? Can CL do the ceremony?

  • KillgoreTrout : Thanks Murph. I hear it was quite a battle!

  • AlphaBitch : KT! I been runnin’ around. Now I’m hittin’ on Ms. Kes and her galcialis. Naughty, naughty.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hello Alpha Bitch, Choice, Glenn….we are getting to crowd size.

  • kesmarn : Duz this mean we’s engaged, Frennie?

  • AlphaBitch : Well kes hon – if you are on Cialis, can I be in the bathtub next to you? All gay-ey and everything??? Hittin’ on ya, Sister!

  • KillgoreTrout : What’s up AB?

  • glenn : CL–Boehner, Cantor, Bachmann, Palin?

  • kesmarn : Love it, glenn!

  • KillgoreTrout : Bon soir, CL.

  • glenn : Kes–okay, got it. Sometimes you have to hit me over the head to make me understand. Perhaps I could be your sister, “HeadHard”. :)

  • AdLib : Whoops AB, you’re right! I’ll trade you one Thomas for one Roberts. They’re both worth about the same…next to nothing.

  • kesmarn : Frennie, I am on some meds, but that ain’t one of ’em!

  • AlphaBitch : Ad – can you count Thomas if he is just Scalia’s hand puppet?

  • AlphaBitch : Ha CL.

  • choicelady : AdLib – who are the Four Stooges?

  • AlphaBitch : I thought Diehard was a Cialis reference.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT….like so many things in Scripture things that do not belong together get lumped together…. the Satan got linked up to the idea of demons (who would dare go against the will of God but one who is evil), the story in Revelations re. the battle for the heavens (Lucifer) and the Zoroastrian idea of a dualistic deity.

  • kesmarn : glenn, I just came through a pretty big surgery and he’s — well — he’s 90! We both have a very odd sense of humor!

  • AdLib : Hey Choicelady!!! How are you this warm evening in Cali?

  • AdLib : AB – The Jeopardy question is, “What were the original names of The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse?”

  • glenn : Kes–okay, I’ll “bite”. Why are you and your dad calling each other “diehard”?

  • kesmarn : Hey, c’lady! My 90 year old dad and I have taken to calling each other “Diehard.”

  • AlphaBitch : YO CL. Wow, what a night. KT, Murph, glenn – yowza.

  • glenn : Hi Alpha Bitch, Hi Choice Lady

  • AdLib : glenn – Nope but thanks to Murph, we can now say that in an historically accurate way!

  • KillgoreTrout : glenn I saw that and was quite surprised. Maybe Huff and Puff is improving?

  • choicelady : Hey everyone – took me forever to log on but to come in and FIND kes here! Wow!

  • AlphaBitch : Which Admin wrote Thomas twice???

  • kesmarn : Yup. Satan Clarence Koch.

  • AdLib : AB – Hiya! Time to play Jeopardy! The answer is Scalia, Thomas, Alito and Thomas. What is the question?

  • AlphaBitch : Clarence Koch? Oh, that is just sad.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….well what is missing with the GOP is that there obstructionism is its own end whereas the Persian model is that differing approaches inform the decision making process.

  • kesmarn : We’ve already assumed Satan’s last name is Koch, Frennie…

  • AlphaBitch : Kes – ha ha! You are in TRUE form, I see.

  • KillgoreTrout : Wow Murph, I didn’t know that. I always heard the fallen angel thing.

  • glenn : AdLib–was there ever any doubt in your mind that r/tp’s are modern day Satans?

  • kesmarn : Frennie! “What is Satan’s middle name?”

  • AdLib : Murph, great background on Satan. So, the role of the entity that disagrees with everything that the leader wants…hmm…so Republicans are modern day Satans?

  • AlphaBitch : Hey ho. BACON. Sorry but am not taking time to read what is going on. Kes – you guessed Scalia or Clarence. Jeopardy:

  • kesmarn : Murph, I never knew that!

  • kesmarn : Either Scalia or “Clarence.”

  • KillgoreTrout : That is a little spooky Ad. What a loss. i feel bad for his little baby girl. She’ll have to be told about him now, instead of learning first hand.

  • glenn : KT–HP posted Carlin’s 1996 tape where he says, “If you’re preborn, you’re fine, if you’re preschool, you’re fucked”. They reran it to show that Carlin had Perry figured out back then. The man (Carlin, not Perry) was a genius. Can you imagine him doing an interview with Colbert in his “conservative” character?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : SATAN…..do you know the origins of the name? In the court of the Persian High King, the Satan was the official charged with disagreeing with the High King….on everything. This was a safety valve to ensure that the High King always got opinion to the contrary of his own. Thus, in the story of Job, Yahweh’s Satan counters God’s observation that Job was a good man with a simple notion: “Of course he is, he has it good.” And thus God sets out to test his thesis, Job is good because he is good, vs. the Satan’s, Job is good because he has it so good. In the end God’s thesis wins out….of course Job’s life has gone to shit but……

  • AdLib : Kes – What’s Satan’s middle name? Scalia?

  • KillgoreTrout : I don’t know glenn. He may be. But it’s always fun to see him riff on Americans, and likewise. The first night he was host, the Daily Sow “correspondents ,” really ribbed him about being British.

  • AdLib : KT – OT but watched an episode of The Sopranos, when Chris and Buschemi’s Tony go to the farm to dig up his first kill. Chris says about Gandolfini’s Tony, “He’s just a heart attack waiting to happen.” Kind of a little creepy now.

  • glenn : KT–no, not written in blood. Written in crayon!

  • kesmarn : I never was sure of what Satan’s last name was, but I’m pretty sure now it’s “Koch.”

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, written in blood?

  • glenn : KT–here’s a question out of left field. Is John Oliver a U.S. citizen? Sometimes I have to laugh when I hear him talking about “our government” or “us” meaning U.S. citizens. He seems to get a little convuluted trying to “fit in”. But, I never miss the point he’s trying to make!

  • AdLib : Kes – Satan is a trademark of the GOP. Any use of his name or actions require the express written consent of the GOP.

  • KillgoreTrout : I hear ya glenn. It’s a crazy, crazy world. Like George Carlin once said, when you are born, you’re given a ticket to the freak show. When you’re born in America, you get a front row seat!

  • AdLib : glenn – Yes, Oliver is filling in some big shoes very well. He reminds me of Colbert in the early days of his show, missteps here and there but gradually the confidence builds and they’re in their groove.

  • KillgoreTrout : glenn, I agree. I think Oliver is doing a great job of hosting. He has his own style of delivery.

  • glenn : KT–Trying to stay sane, or at least give the appearance of being sane!

  • AdLib : KT – Bags of hammers have a restraining order against being compared to Rick Perry, claiming it is demeaning.

  • kesmarn : Satan would be envious of the GOP playbook, AdLib. They’re so much more creative than he is.

  • KillgoreTrout : LOL Ad. He’d certainly have a run for his money.

  • glenn : Hey Kes, Hey AdLib–Don’t forget to add John Oliver to the list of satirists. He’s doing a great job of filling in for Stewart, don’t you think?

  • KillgoreTrout : Que pasa glenn?

  • AdLib : I wonder if Satan came to Earth, if he’d look at the Repubs and say, “Now that’s some evil shit!”

  • KillgoreTrout : Perry is another moron for putting a woman down for NOT having an abortion. The guy makes a bag of hammers look smart.

  • AdLib : Hey glenn! Yep, the jokes (Repubs) keep coming!

  • kesmarn : Hey, glenn! Colbert and Stewart will never run out of material, no?

  • KillgoreTrout : Quite true kes.

  • glenn : Good evening, all. I see you’re discussing the crazies–Boehner , Bachmann, Palin. Nothing like some comic relief on a Friday night, right?

  • KillgoreTrout : Actually, Palin got wrong, of course. If he were a Judas, he would’ve voted against the immigration bill.

  • kesmarn : And in today’s RW circles, that requires real effort and an assist from Satan, KT.

  • AdLib : But she doesn’t matter anymore, there are elected Repubs even dumber and more hateful than she is. Look at Rick Perry, killing the 500th convict while wailing about life being sacred as the reason to prevent women from having control over their own bodies.

  • KillgoreTrout : Well kes, between Bachmann and Coulter, she has to out crazy the crazies.

  • kesmarn : Oh my god…she just gets wackier by the day…

  • KillgoreTrout : Oh I never take Palin seriously. It’s king of like Poltergeist, they’re back!

  • AdLib : Karl Rove is actually a Paula Deen ham.

  • AdLib : Kes – Palin says Rubio and Christie are traitors and gays should go back where they came from…er…

  • KillgoreTrout : She asked today if Marco Rubio got his 30 pieces of silver, for voting for the immigration bill. Same old bible tinged crazy talk.

  • kesmarn : Is Paula Deen doing the catering for that GOP convention?

  • AdLib : Hey, isn’t Palin over? Who actually cares about what she has to say anymore? And her new roommate in Nowheresville is Bachmann.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, that’s the perfect network. Comedy central is too cerebral.

  • kesmarn : What are The Palinator’s latest pearls of idiocy, KT?

  • AdLib : I heard the 2016 GOP convention be televised on Cartoon Network.

  • KillgoreTrout : Oh, they sure are. I see Palin is back to provide fuel for the comedians. She’s always good for a laugh.

  • kesmarn : Hey, Murph! I think I missed your arrival. Hope all’s well with you.

  • AdLib : KT – Exactly!

  • AdLib : KT – Aren’t most of the Repubs cartoon characters now?

  • KillgoreTrout : No lions?

  • KillgoreTrout : Well Ad, he IS a cartoon character. Boehner I mean.

  • AdLib : No bull and no lyin’.

  • AdLib : Wonder if Boehner’s role model is Charlie Brown trying to kick the ball Lucy’s holding?

  • KillgoreTrout : Ha, and I’m damned glad for it! ;)

  • AdLib : Welcome Kes’ new computer. You better treat her right!

  • kesmarn : :-D This is one place where there’s no bull, KT!

  • KillgoreTrout : Ah, they need to visit the “Wailing Wall.”

  • KillgoreTrout : No problem kes. VOX could use a few bears!

  • AdLib : Hey Murph!

  • KillgoreTrout : Ha, good one Murph. I hope all is well.

  • AdLib : Did you see the Repub Congresspeople speaking to the press about how this is the end of America because five dictators haven’t chosen to let God’s law rule? The Taliban must be nodding their heads about now.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ah yes, isn’t it though. I’ve been “conversing with a few of them earlier. They just can’t understand that we are not governed by the bible, or any other holy book.

  • kesmarn : Coming along pretty well these days, thankee. I’m just breaking in a new computer, so there may be a little learning curve as I introduce it to Vox. Bear with me…

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Only KT, Kesman and Ad Lib in the HOUSE….so with me that’s four….about the size of the John Boehner fan club.

  • KillgoreTrout : The SC’s decision on DOMA is truly a monumental one. History in the making, for sure.

  • AdLib : The homophobes behind Prop 8 are wailing out here, it is such a sweet sound!

  • KillgoreTrout : Oooh, good one Ad.

  • AdLib : KES!!! Wonderful to see you!!!

  • KillgoreTrout : Greetings and salutations Homie! I hope you’re feeling much better.

  • AdLib : Well, maybe that explains that Rick Perry is a son of a B?

  • kesmarn : Or Rand Paul to an alien life form? Happy Friday, my friends!

  • KillgoreTrout : Sure, just not in Utah!

  • KillgoreTrout : I think it’s hilarious that Rick Perry’s college major was “Animal Husbandry!” Hmmmmm!

  • AdLib : So can gay dead Mormons marry now?

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey, if the Moromons can baptize dead people, why not?

  • AdLib : He does seem to be looking for permission to do so!

  • AdLib : Hey KT! Just for the hell of it, we should marry Santorum to a sheep.

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Ad, “weddings for all,” who want to get married.

  • AdLib : Don’t forget to say “hi” or “Weddings For Everyone!” when you arrive!

  • AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. Hope to see you then!

Categories: Vox Populi Archives

Written by AdLib

My motto is, "It is better to have blogged and lost hours of your day, than never to have blogged at all."

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