Displaying 1,201 To 1,230 Of 3,237 Comments Huffington Post Goes NSA on Its Members Hi Funk, This is to inform you that you have been “Verified” as another very nice, very insightful, and praise-worthy person….of course that verification was in place long ago and well known to your family and friends. Thanks for your very kind words. I agree there are good people working in bad organizations toward ends that do not serve those they really do want to serve. I have great confidence in a half dozen people I have come to know at HP but my sense is that they are not in charge of the big decisions like this one but are left holding the bag when they come down. We are the commodity that commercial blogs like AOL/HP deal in…that is a painful truth. I feel badly for the good folks. I do. What are you going to do, or have done? I am sticking at HP BUT I am doing so because I have a null FB page- nothing on it and all locked down. My name is not my name, my birth date is not my birth date, my gender is the extent of my sharing. SO I have no worries. If my phone number gets out, I change it but I have good blocking and filtering software there too. I don’t know what I will do there yet but I want the option to act. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On December 13, 2013 @ 2:00 pm This is very valuable. Thank you. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On December 13, 2013 @ 1:43 pm Left you a note- the notification system is working but the “You can go to The Planet to view and/or reply to this comment by clicking here: View This Comment” is not functioning. Click it and it brings you to your story and the top of the comments. I need to scroll down for a while to get to mine. I have several new replies. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On December 13, 2013 @ 1:37 pm Hello Ad Lib…several managers at HP are now reading the Planet…I wonder if any eyes will be opened. As you say….the independent and open minded can deal with differences in opinion. I refer to it as having the capacity to disagree without being disagreeable. I just noted to Sally that I have thousands of fans, and more than a thousand friends at HP, but the number there that I really care about is far fewer than those at this much smaller community. Quality over quantity. There are hidden forces at work at HP. I agree. Their motivations may be as you and others say: money. Or it could be a desire to shape the public mind; or to provide a platform for favored stakeholders. I don’t know. I do regard the way that this was done as ham-fisted. The loss of so many, especially a number of fine pundits with broad perspectives and the ability to argue from the facts pains me no end. I and several others were consulted about the changes being made at HP and we were provided with a number of avenues on which to make comment and to make our suggestions. I am sad to say that many of those suggestions were set aside and the result, I fear, is this mess. I do think the size of the site, in member numbers, in staff numbers, in multiple platforms spanning the globe, in topics covered, makes for a very complex operation. I respect the challenge that this implies and while I love the Planet, it is not a mass media environment. For a while at HP I felt that many, many, many were being touched by those who were truth speakers…now I am not so sure. Lots of conversations feel empty. Like I said, sad. Your belief that if HP was really interested in authentic moderation of its site, it would invest in enough moderators to do the job. I have real doubts about this. Why? The quality of the moderators. I have had any number of pieces deleted or just not published. I have followed up on every one of them. Since HP does not notify you when a comment is deleted, something I have argued for strenuously, one has to be the obsessive person that I am to know it happened. Why does it happen: Sometimes it was an auto function triggered by filtering software looking for certain words, phrases, logic streams. Sometimes it was a moderator reacting to a number of flags thrown down by those who did not like my Point of View and the moderator, overwhelmed by the number of comments, hit delete. And then there are the deletes/failures to publish that happen because the moderator does not understand the comment. I do not know this for sure but I suspect the moderator corps is mostly young, very inexperienced, members of the tweeting generation, and do not stay long at HP. I made a suggestion long ago that HP go back to letting trusted members “remove” offending comments but that removal was to send them into a limbo where they would be reviewed by well trained moderators Those moderators would decide if the removal stuck or not. More importantly they would keep the data that showed who was being flagged the most. I suggested that this would quickly point out trolls. Once that became known, troll activity would be slowed considerably. The idea never got much traction. Why? Some were legal arguments about what such action implied vis-a-vis the authority of those with the power to send for review. I did not buy it. Still don’t. One argument that did seem to have value was- how does one come to trust those with the authority to do this? My response- choose those who write and reply responsibly and if they abuse the privilege take it away. The metaphor I used was having a few sheriffs and deputies and a big civilian posse. The posse is always under the supervision of the badges. I want to respond to a quote from your reply: “When you treat innocent people like vandals and their written expression like toilet paper, it’s problematic. The correct motto is, “The customer is always right,” not, “The customer just needs to accept what we want to do with them because it works best for us so stop complaining.” HP runs its site by the latter sensibility.” That has not been my experience at HP at all. Perhaps I am not dealing with those who think as you suggest they do, but I am pretty good at reading people and I find those I know to be people who really care. They make dozens of phone calls to members and write hundreds of e mails. They don’t have to do any of it. The pundit program does something that they need not do- elevate a certain group of posters to places of influence- good in and of itself but also the source of headaches for them because we are the principal complainers. Here is where I am. To quote you: “I do not wish to paint with too broad of a brush, there are no doubt many earnest, conscientious and responsible people working at HP.” I also worries me that they may well be those who ” don’t make the big decisions.” Motivation is always multi-faceted and many layered. I know they have been grappling with the trolling, spamming issues for a long time. Having been at the center of several orchestrated attacks, I know of the integrity of those who helped me. But you bring up broader institutional issues that I cannot confidently address. As to the tactic/strategy of HPFB- I did not like it from the first and I argued that if HP wanted to verify accounts using the e-mail/phone/account axis then they should invest in the software to do this because I trusted HP more than FB. I was very unhappy when I saw the rollout and how it was communicated and, more importantly, that the communication seemed to say that privacy was not being protected. Another of your comments strikes me: “All corporately owned websites appear to evolve in a similar manner, they infringe more and more on the privacy of their members and they find ways to profit off of that violation of privacy.” This is the cruz of the matter. What is the game that is afoot? As to mining the data…well in my case, my FB account for HP is an empty shaft. My name is not my name. My birthdate is not my birth date. Gender is correct. And that is all they get. My phone number is my cell but the whole world has that and I have good software to block unwanted calls. The HP staff are busy assuring people that they will have no such mining operation for anyone. I think they beleive it but I am not nearly as confident. A very significant development at HP that argues against your portrayal of increased censorship is the whitelisting of all pundit comments. No more moderation. It has been great and the plan was to expand whitelisting to more and more people who do not violate the now far clearer standards at the FAQ. I have already referenced the promise from HP’s leadership class not to implement the verification policy for current members. I have to confess that I was one of those who regarded such a promise as a bad idea from the start. I objected to dividing the community in this way. It just did not seem fair. I also believed that there were large numbers of trolls already nested in the community and that leaving them out of the verification process made little sense. Of course, at the time, I also did not know that FB was going to be the only option and I did not know what the exposure would look like. I was arguing for an internal HP system, or a twitter based verification. But the failure to address this with the no-questions approach to verification has done a lot of damage. One battle was won: the option not to use the full name but just a first name and initial. Furthermore, additional efforts to authenticate the “real name” were also dropped. So the victory seems a bit Pyrrhic. I am impressed both by the depth and the passion of your anti-corporatist argument. I have to admit that it makes a lot of sense. You say that I am “…everything you describe management at HP to be, dedicated, earnest and conscientious. Many people will agree with you and remain at or join up at HP. My prediction though is that the new situation there will be quite stifling but blogging at HP and HP itself will continue.” I suspect you are correct. My enthusiasm is waning as I see more and more of those I respect walking away. Off to other things in the “real world”. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On December 13, 2013 @ 7:01 am I have friends who do FB and they really like it. I just don’t trust the corporate megalith that is at its heart and their moves on privacy of late have made me even more skeptical. Now, it seems, HP may be going down the same rabbit hole. Still I thank you for the invitation. You are one of the best. It is interesting that of the thousands of fans I have at HP, I have more I care for and about here at this much smaller site. Hmmmmm. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On December 13, 2013 @ 6:13 am It is pretty difficult for me to offer much in the way of meaningful refutation here. You make a lot of sense. I do not know if money is the root of what is wrong at HP, but I cannot help but think that there are motivations at work there that are not working for the community first and foremost. “The HP community as commodity” is a fearsome concept and one that needs to be addressed. You also pick apart the strategy of verification rather well. I am passing all of this along to HP management – whether they read it is up to them. I can tell you this, yours is one of the best critiques I have read and I will be quoting from it quite a lot. Thanks. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On December 13, 2013 @ 6:09 am I understand. I too have been disappointed in the quality of conversation at HP at times but I am not sure if this is all that new. Still, there is little doubt that pundit participation has diminished and that substantive comments seem to be on the decline. I was part of a group consulted about this change of policy and I hav to admit that a lot of what we had to say seems to have been disregarded re. the roll out process. I trust those I know at HP but have a sense that others did not understand what was being recommended or why it was important. Actually, no one pushed me to open a FB account. It was an invitation and I did it but under my terms which I describe in my reply to confused democrat above. You might want to take a look at it. Thanks for sharing your British experience. I was there for 7th, 8th, 9th an 10th grade….and sadly had to return to the states. I really regret that. I am an honorary Old Boy and have more affection for my “public school” than for any other educational institution I attended. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On December 13, 2013 @ 6:02 am Good points all. Here is what I did. I did not have a FB account for the reasons you cite. I do have a twitter account that I hardly ever use- imagine trying to get any idea across in 144 characters! With the FB requirement at HP I had to decide- stay or leave. I decided to stay; opened a FB account which has nothing in it but my name (sort of) my birthdate (sort of) and my gender (on the mark there) and nothing else. Nothing. I also set the privacy controls to ultra. It is the best I can do. I understand the troll control tactic. The literature says that those with multiple accounts are unlikely to be willing to have multiple phones and that the constellation of phone-email-social media account tends to reduce spamming in general. I am skeptical, but as it stands now, I am basically in a null zone re. FB. Here is what I am certain about. Nothing posted at HP will appear at FB. The pipe runs in one direction from FB to HP (and even though HP could have access to FB info that is only true if your privacy settings permit it). As to writing at work- well I am retired (from a corporate structure, working on my own) but when I worked I never did social media for the reasons you cite- never know who’s looking on. Does any of this help? » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On December 13, 2013 @ 5:43 am Yes, I know and the more I know the more I respect your perspective. I have passed Ad Lib’s comment and the discussion on to many including the management at HP. I think that big platforms like HP have problems we do not have here but I also think that this strategy is unlikely to do what its leadership hopes it will do. So we trudge on. Thanks for all you do. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On December 13, 2013 @ 4:09 am I do and you do and as you say this speaks loudly of both the values and the value of this site. I have been recommending this article to many- including the leadership at HP. I wonder if I will soon be on someone’s list as a purge candidate? » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On December 13, 2013 @ 4:04 am I have been one of those who has regularly challenged both the moderating process and the moderators but I have also seen what an unmoderated big site looks like, Poltiico-a mosh pit. I pushed for white listing of all comments for Pundits which was adopted. The Facebook strategy was a mistake based on a desire to certify real personhood of the poster and to limit the frequency of one person holding multiple accounts from which they could snipe troll style at those who wanted to really engage. I fear that the negative outcomes of this are going to outweigh the positive ones. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On December 13, 2013 @ 4:01 am Thank Sally friend. I am a crusader by nature. I used to post at Politico too but I got exhausted by the Mosh Pit there. The Planet and HP are so much better but for different reasons. I can say the same for the Daily Beast and Salon. Much less worthy that either PPOV or HP but again for different reasons. There is nothing about FB that attracts me and HP really had to twist my arm to get me to even open an account. The one I opened has nothing in it and the privacy settings are set at max and that is how it’s going to stay. Still, if folks like you, of your quality and sensitivity find value in it than I must be missing something. So I will look further. So, I do have a level of intolerance that can be reached but HP has not come close yet. BTW- I am reading/viewing your funnies every week and enjoying them thoroughly. Your foreign press coverage is especially enlightening although often a source of confusion which requires some research. What a unique service you proved. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On December 12, 2013 @ 9:18 pm Hi Kalima…I posted my thoughts….gulp…..will be interested in yours as well. I have sent links to the article to more than 150 others including the entire management team that I know at HP. What a mess. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On December 12, 2013 @ 8:03 pm I posted my thoughts….gulp…..will be interested in yours as well. I have sent links to your article to more than 150 others including the entire management team that I know at HP. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On December 12, 2013 @ 8:00 pm I am a proud citizen of the Planet. I have enjoyed being a part of the community here. PlanetPOV’s Vox Populi is a highlight of my week. Ad Lib’s posts are always thought provoking and well crafted. I love the Sunday Funnies by SallyT and the Weekend Music Thread by Kilgore Trout.While Ad Lib posts many of the articles here, any member can. I have and so have many others. The Planet has a number of really sharp, very informed and experienced members. When they write they say a lot. This site works in the way it does because it is usually inhabited by pretty small group of passionate, well informed, honest, real and respectful progressive thinkers. I like it. I like it a lot. And I regularly praise the founders for their gift. ==================== I also like HP. It is a different place and a different experience. It has lots of gimmicks associated with it: fanning, faving, following; badges. It is a platform that features a mix of its own stories and those of is affiliated media sites. Its comment section is often like roller derby. I am a Political Pundit at HP and do a lot of writing and commenting there. I face off against many anti-Progressives; and provide support for other Progressive in original long posts and in my replies. I have gotten to know some of the HP management and I find them to be dedicated and earnest. AND HP is huge with platforms in a bunch of places around the globe. I spend a lot of time at the UK platform as someone who was educated in Britain. I like the variety of stories. I like give and take. But, of late I have found the number of comments usually labeled as “trollish” very irritating. The comments are short, generalization based, nasty in tone, and hit and run (if you take them on, the poster either does not get back to you or gives you more of the same). HP has done studies that show that such people often have multiple names on a site like HP and that the more you nail them down via linking the account to “verified” anchors like phones and accompanying e mails, the fewer your trolls. A piece of this is requiring that persons use their real names (as a first name plus initial or as a first and last name.) Ad Lib has identified all of the reasons why real names are a very bad idea for many. I agree with him. I applaud HP’s intention, but the consequences of such a policy would drive many, many away including me. If one uses a real name facebook account with a lot of info about oneself the potential, despite HP’s stated commitment to keep all that they have access to private, to have one’s life opened wide is very much there. Privacy settings help but are not bank vaults. Furthermore the reality is that many facebook accounts have names that are not real names. Still, linking that account to a phone and e mail and then linking that FB account to a HP account does provide the means to further associate the holder of those accounts with the real world. That’s good but not a huge leap forward. So HP has rolled out this new effort and there have been a number of people who walked away. There is a good bit of confusion. Many do not see the point. And the way in which it was done seemed to be “out of the blue” and arbitrary. I wish they had communicated far more fully, and further in advance. A lot has been made over the broken promise to grandfather in those who already had accounts, but tons of those belong to the very trolls who are targeted in this AND setting up a two tier membership like this would have created a lot of resentment. SO, I, a long time member, said…..”good for one, good for all.” I do not have an answer to the trolling problem but I am pretty sure that this will only help a bit. Last thing…moderating…in principle, at a big site where the members are not committed to each other and to the underlying assumptions at the site, moderation is a good idea. It is also a very hard thing to do well with fairness and consistency. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On December 12, 2013 @ 7:59 pm The JFK Assassination in the Eyes of an American British School Boy I think so. JFK has come to be an icon of pure liberal principle and RR has come to be an icon of pure conservative principle….neither is true but both are widely embraced…. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 23, 2013 @ 7:43 pm Yes…. I have started using this phrase in the last day or so: JFK became more in death than he was in life Your discussion of the persistence of visual and auditory memory connected to the events of the days after Dallas rings true for me as well. Not only can I vividly recall the events in the hallway outside the Head’s office and I can also recall my call home the next morning, the train ride back to Portsmouth for a long weekend with my family (also the Headmaster’s idea) and how alone I felt- without really knowing why-. I recall the train station news stands were every newspaper had the assassination as its headline. I had to wait a while for my dad to arrive so I had some fish and chips. I was dressed in uniform (very distinctive they were too) and when I spoke gave away my American origins. Another customer, a woman in a very tall hat with feathers, turned and looked at me. She said something to a the vendor and then paid for my food. She said: “That’s alright dear….you have had a hard day have you not?” And then she gave me a hug. It was all odd. I was thirteen and of average size for that age. I was definitely too old to have a random lady pay for my food and hug me like I was some lost 8 year old. Still…..I did not say “no, I’ll pay” or pull away when she embraced me….somehow I knew she meant well, very well, and that this was her way of joining me in my sorrow. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 23, 2013 @ 7:41 pm And the ripples continue in the current day….extraordinary. Part of this of course is due to the way in which it was covered. We can, in audio and video recover those moments in an instant. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 23, 2013 @ 10:15 am So very welcome. Another phrase has come to mind: » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 23, 2013 @ 10:14 am Your point regarding who bears the news and who breaks it is on the mark. Great insight. It would have been difficult to have heard it on my own as well. That greeting from Dr. Day: “Young men of America, I have the sad duty to inform you that your President, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, is dead.” gathered us as a family and that was precisely the right thing to so. That Sixth Former- a prefect named Farley- capped off the moment by calling us to sing the National Anthem. Many years later it occurred to me that the Anthem fit the moment. O say can you see by the dawn’s early light, I don’t care for the Star Spangled Banner all that much. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 23, 2013 @ 10:13 am Thank you for sharing this as well. The events just roll right out of our memories don’t they? As a navy kid I lived in a dozen homes (not counting temporary quarters) and our home in England is one the two I can recall because I went home for several days to be with my family after the assassination. Again. our headmaster was very enlightened and realized the need. Anyone who wanted to, could go. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 23, 2013 @ 9:56 am I did not know that so I went looking for more info. Here is what I found at wiki. President John F. Kennedy’s official portrait was painted posthumously by Aaron Shikler by request of Jacqueline Kennedy. It is generally analyzed as a character study. Unlike most presidential portraits, Kennedy’s does not reflect his personality, but instead depicts him as pensive and brooding, with eyes downcast and arms folded, referencing Kennedy’s assassination. Shikler wished not to paint the eyes of a dead man, thus the portrait features JFK with his eyes downcast. Shikler also painted the official White House portraits of first lady Jacqueline Kennedy and the Kennedy children. I have also seen several photos of him in a stance similar to that- staring out the window of the Oval Office during the Cuban Missile Crisis, just prior to accepting the nomination for President, in the last moments before his second State of the Union….I think he had a dark side and that is what we see in this portrait. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 23, 2013 @ 9:51 am JFK became more in death than he was in life AND I thank you for your thoughts. Different memories in many ways but the common core- they endure and with power. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 23, 2013 @ 9:46 am You wrote the following: “Let me just say this about your response Murph. I suppose you live in the United States. If not, that won’t make a difference, my point is this: There are a people in this country who owned this land before Europeans came to rape, rob, and steal here. What would you think if a nation such as Iran, or Saudi Arabia would begin to send billions of dollars a year in military assistance to the Native Americans, what if they helped them build walls around the land they win through war, what if they helped them by placing what is considered an Iron Dome over those lands once they had captured them. What if the Native Americans used the weapons to demolish cities and towns in this nation? Would you say they were correct if they did this. Would you say they had every reason to kill civilian Americans who do not control the government or the military? This is what is happening in Israel, and we have to remember that Israeli’s are not the only people on this earth who have suffered. I would think that people who have suffered in the manner in which you express would be intelligent enough to realize that they are not going to get anywhere through violence, through killing innocent human beings that they have trapped in an area where they cannot escape. Let’s just be clear here, Israel will not be satisfied until they have all of Palestine, they are not ever going to accept a Palestinian state on Palestinian land, that is the crux of the problem. ===========================My response================ I have written extensively at several places in this debate. The foundation of Zionist belief is that THEY, the Jews, the Israelis ARE the people of the Land. There is a good bit of history to back them up on that. They were expelled from their land in the First Century AD by the Romans. The Palestinian do not have the same ancient claim a they are descended from arabic peoples who migrated into the region over the course of the next several hundred year. A quick read of your paragraphs here could be taken as an indictment of the Palestinians who are supported by “foreign” governments and fundamentalist Islamic groups. Lastly, I have no doubt that many in on the Islamic side of this struggle would have no qualms in advocating the expulsion of all Jews from Palestine, at the least they would make it clear that Israel, a Jewish state, ha no claim to exist. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 31, 2014 @ 3:26 pm The All Caps were the only way I could think of to separate your words from mine typographically. The coding for italics does not work most of the time and bold would have been the same thing. I was not making a comment on your health in any way. In the the Muslim world the key question separating Sunni and Shiite believers is one of who inherited the authority of Muhammmad upon his death in 632 AD, 1400 years ago. They have been at war over this for 14 centuries. Past is present. The question of Jews vs. Muslims is much the same. What intrigues me is that the concept of Palestine is a distinctively 20th century. Legal historian Assaf Likhovski states that the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the 20th century as a result of the dislocation of a number of populations throughout Levant created by imperialistic juggling by European nations, the Ottoman empire, and various Arabian rulers. Genetic analysis suggests that a majority of the Muslims of Palestine, inclusive of Arab citizens of Israel, are descendants of Christians, Jews and other earlier inhabitants of the southern Levant whose people were largely nomadic until the 18th century. Their claim in the land is rooting in 19th century settlement. Religiously most Palestinians are Sunni with some Druze, Samaritans, Jews and Chritians mixed in. The Jews of Israel are largely drawn from the immigrant populations that came from Europe post WWII with some Americans and a few native Middle Easterners. Israel’s origins in the 20th century are rooted in the Zionist movement, in the association of that movement with European dynastic efforts in the 19th and early 20th century, the redrawing of the Map of the Middle East after WWI creating ridiculous and unsustainable nation states tied to European powers, the importance of oil in the industrial revolution, geo-political power politic pre and post WWII and into the Cold War, and the Holocaust. I have said, from the beginnng of this discussion that I, unlike some in this discussion, regard the re-establishment of Israel in 1948 as a deeply flawed effort from the first. The question of Palestinian rights and sovereignty was not properly addressed then and continues not to be addressed now. Militancy on both sides is the driving force in the ongoing struggle. Yes, the U.S. (alongside half a dozen European nations) has been Israel’s greatest supporter. Why? The same geo-political forces in play for Europeans in the 19th and 20th century are key, but the Israel Lobby, that odd combination of Jewish and Christian persons with extraordinary influence on the electoral process, is unique. Equally unique is the odd mixture of liberal and conservative support for the state of Israel. This is not a simple matter. What demands can be made that make sense, that make the situation better. I think it may well be unsolvable. I have not posed an answer because I do not have one. I have challenged those that have been posed as movements that would change things but not in the direction of peace. If the U.S. were to withdraw its military support for Israel, it would be attacked by one or more Muslim states with Iran the likely first aggressor in the near future. It would face vastly more armed resistance from Hamas and its asociates with backing from the oil rich Arabian peninsula powers who desire an end to the Israeli state and the various transnational Islamist groups. And yet, I weep for what is happening in Gaza, and on the West Bank. I view the efforts by the Israeli military as too much like those of the SS and Wehrmacht in the ghettos of Europe with yesterday’s attack on the market as the most recent atrocity. At its core, the greatest obstacle is coming down to this: Fundamentalist Jews and Muslims simply cannot work with each other since they believe that they are bound by their creeds to war against the other as the very embodiment of evil. In Northern Ireland the troubles came to an end because of the secularization of the Irish people and the diminishing power of both religion and cultural tradition. That is what it is going to take in Palestine and I see no signs of this on the horizon. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 31, 2014 @ 4:56 am You posted this: I’m sorry Murph, bringing up the persecution of Jews from ancient times just doesn’t work for me, I was talking from the beginning 70 years ago until now. I have nothing against the people of Israel and wish them well, but their government is evil and greedy filled with cold blooded murderers whom they elected. WE LACK COMMON GROUND THEN. 70 YEARS, 700 YEARS, 7000 YEARS FOR MUCH OF WORLD THE CHAIN THAT JOIN THOSE MOMENTS TOGETHER IS FORGED IN STEEL. Someone should have thought more carefully about the consequences of promising Utopia to the first settlers there surrounded on all sides by hostile Arab countries. It makes little sense to me, and please don’t use the word “exile” as a reason or excuse for Israel to continue what it is doing to the Palestinians, or for your government to turn a blind eye to the killing and suffering Israel has caused in the region. You forget that I’m German and already share a lifetime of collective guilt for the crimes against them in my country, so I’m afraid it doesn’t work with me because I have no room left for any more guilt. AS I HAVE SAID SEVERAL TIMES- THE CONCEPT OF A “RETURN” FOR JEWS IN ’48 WAS ILL CONCEIVED AND GENERALLY SUPPORTED FOR THE WRONG REASONS AND NOW THERE ARE TWO PEOPLES STUCK IN A PLACE AND TIME CREATED FOR THEM AND MADE WORSE BY THEM (OR AT LEAST THEIR LEADER). YOU SEE THE FAULT IN THE ISRAELIS MORE CLEARLY THAN I DO. America now needs to feel the guilt for unconditionally supporting a rogue regime who constantly break every international law, and are rarely reprimanded so continue to do as they please even when your government and your tax dollars are enabling this bloodshed. YOU NEED TO INCLUDE A LOT MORE COUNTRIES IN YOUR LIST. 157 RECOGNIZE THE STATE OF ISRAEL. ITS TRADE WITH DOZENS OF NATIONS IS ROBUST AND INVESTMENT IN THE COUNTRY BY NON ISRAELIS IS EQUALLY AS ROBUST. JAPAN HAS TAKEN AN INTERESTING APPROACH- GIVING PRECEDENCE TO ITSS ARAB AND IRANIAN TRADE OVER ISRAEL WHILE SUPPORT ITS CORE PEACE IDEA: A CORRIDOR FOR PEACE AND PROSPERITY IN JULY 2006. THE CORRIDOR WOULD BE BAED ON COMMON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BY ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS. BOTH SIDES HAVE REJECTED THE PROPOSAL. I really don’t have much more to say about this, so you have your opinion, and I have mine, with fuzzy bits in the middle, and that’s fine with me. I UNDERSTAND AND GIVEN THAT THIS PROBLEM HAS BEEN CAUGHT IN A SEEMINGLY ENDLESS LOOP NEITHER OF US SHOULD BE SURPRISED. SEE YOU AROUND. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 30, 2014 @ 8:08 pm Here is another way of looking at this: It is 70 AD and the Jewish people are among the few in the world who stand in opposition to the harsh nature of Roman rule with is forced idolatry, oppressive taxes, cruel law and constant military presence. The revolt against the super power of the day was an act of extraordinary courage and foolhardiness….in the end the city of Jerusalem was sacked, the temple destroyed and the Jewish people exile forever from their homeland….with the final act in the drama at Masada where ahandful of men, women and children withstood a Roman seige for an impossible amount of time and then took theirown lives rather than be taken captive. For the next 1900 years, they would be a people without a home, often persecuted and despised….and victimized with the Holocaust as the most telling moment in their religious and ethnic struggle for existence. That too is a story….their story and that story is part of the rationale behind the re-creation of the Jewish state (plus the other less than stellar motivations of the colonial powers seeking to create a client state in a middle east that was clearly going to toss them out on their ears). And it did not go well from the start. For a short time, during the Carter years I thought that reform forces on both sides, less religious, more secular, less ethnic and more nationalistic would push through. But the reemergence of Islamic Militarism and Israeli Zionism seems to have put an end to that. Today I read of an attack by Israeli forces on a series of buildings in the heart of the Strip and I thought of the seige of the Warsaw Ghetto…don’t they know their own history? In this moment they were the storm troopers, the Nazis, don’t the get it? Nope. I hope you understand that I very much with you in this…but the course you lay out will result in the extermination of the Jews in Israel or another exile. And a failure to do something spectacular leaves the Palestinians an oppressed ghettoized people without hope. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 30, 2014 @ 7:44 pm Moshe Feiglin’s views are controversial and far more complex than Addicting Info represents them. Their use of the phrase “final solution” is a give away. But Feiglin is a Zionist. He is also a libertarian and secularist. Look at his statement on citizenship. “The Land of Israel is our Land and we will never leave it. Israel must declare sovereignty over all parts of the Land that are in our hands, as the Likud Charter requires. Israel’s Arabs enjoy all rights – even more than Israel’s Jewish citizens. The Arabs living in Judea, Samaria and Gaza can be offered permanent residency status. This status will afford them full human rights and most of the services that the State of Israel gives its citizens. It will be forbidden to do to them what we did to our own brothers in Gush Katif. Israeli citizenship will be granted to those non-Jews who have tied their fate to Israel and who have proven their loyalty to the State. Those Arabs of Judea, Samaria and Gaza who insist on voting for an independent parliament as the core of their own state may do so in any one of the 22 amazing democracies that the Arab Nation has established since World War I.” He deserves his own debate. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 30, 2014 @ 7:10 pm I accept your comparison and add a Jewish one. It is 70 AD and the Jewish people are among the few in the world who stand in opposition to the harsh nature of Roman rule with is forced idolatry, oppressive taxes, cruel law and constant military presence. The revolt against the super power of the day was an act of extraordinary courage and foolhardiness….in the end the city of Jerusalem was sacked, the temple destroyed and the Jewish people exile forever from their homeland….with the final act in the drama at Masada where ahandful of men, women and children withstood a Roman seige for an impossible amount of time and then took theirown lives rather than be taken captive. For the next 1900 years, they would be a people without a home, often persecuted and despised….and victimized with the Holocaust as the most telling moment in their religious and ethnic struggle for existence. That too is a story….their story and that story is part of the rationale behind the re-creation of the Jewish state (plus the other less than stellar motivations of the colonial powers seeking to create a client state in a middle east that was clearly going to toss them out on their ears). And it did not go well from the start. For a short time, during the Carter years I thought that reform forces on both sides, less religious, more secular, less ethnic and more nationalistic would push through. But the reemergence of Islamic Militarism and Israeli Zionism seems to have put an end to that. Today I read of an attack by Israeli forces on a series of buildings in the heart of the Strip and I thought of the seige of the Warsaw Ghetto…don’t they know their own history? In this moment they were the storm troopers, the Nazis, don’t the get it? Nope. I hope you understand that I very much with you in this…but the course you lay out will result in the extermination of the Jews in Israel or another exile. And a failure to do something spectacular leaves the Palestinians an oppressed ghettoized people without hope. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 30, 2014 @ 6:50 pm I hear you. The Zionists are the counterpoint to the Islamists. There was a time when both groups were being countered and actually replaced by reformists (both religious and secular). It would seem that in the face of increased militancy on both sides, and each would argue as to whose fault that is, that the voices of reform are heard less and less. Re backing…..there is a lot of money flowing into the hands of pro-palestinian forces- those missiles and tunnels do not come cheap- is it as much as U.S. aid? Depends on how you calculate the numbers but a case can be made. Where Israel really tops the funding is as a result of its own robust economy (as it, admittedly cripple the economy on both the West Bank and Gaza). Yes one side has more power and has more it can do but I argue that the other side would be the same if it had the power. I blame the original model. Faulty from the start. But I have no idea what to do as I do not have a Wayback machine and even if I did the forces I listed in my earlier post that led to the creation of the Israeli state would still be there. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 30, 2014 @ 9:58 amComments Posted By MurphTheSurf3
– a short life but it carries a very long memory.
JFK became more in death than he was in life
– a short life but it carries a very long memory.
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight’s last gleaming,
Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight,
O’er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets’ red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there;
O say does that star-spangled banner yet wave,
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?
But in moments of crisis it speaks of endurance and of a sense of pride and continuity.
– a short life but it carries a very long memory.
You are looking at this whole question from one side…you are entitled to do so….I actually agree with much of what you say here and then I say “on the other hand” and this is where that lead me…
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