Displaying 721 To 750 Of 3,237 Comments The Irresponsible Electorate and the 4th of July I will follow up on this. I hope your optimism is well place. My concern is that the structure for a constitutional so favors the status quo that citizen based calls are forced to climb a mountain without the tools and the people they need to do it. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 6, 2014 @ 8:27 pm Many good observations here: the subversion of the principle of freedom for AND from religion, tax policy that put most of the burden on the middle class, well financed campaigns aimed aimed at increasing political illiteracy…I fear that your hope that the electorate will awaken may not be a realistic one…. Fireworks of course are non-lethal cannon fire- It is all about war- or the reminder that war is always on the horizon and that nations exist primarily to keep their citizens safe. But there is also the fireworks of political engagement…to keep us safe….. But from what, from whom? The country has lost its way before. In modern times, the gilded age of the 1880’s through the early 1900’s; between WWI and WWII, are two such times when BIG Money tried to “run the table” in seeking control of the electoral process and all mechanism of government. We are there again. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 5, 2014 @ 7:28 am It all exists in support of either the ideology of the controlling party OR under the rubric of “no controversy.” » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 5, 2014 @ 7:22 am I do. There used to be a requirement that every 7th grade get a 80 percent on a civic test as a pre-requisite for 8th grade graduation; with a repeat of this in Junior year….both were the result of New Deal educational reform and both were quietly eliminated in the Reagan years. Civics classes in junior high and in high school were preps for these tests….AND they were tough. Multiple choice,yes. But also fill-in the blank, short answers, matching AND an essay. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 5, 2014 @ 7:20 am And there used to be a requirement that every 7th grade get a 80 percent on a civic test as a pre-requisite for 8th grade graduation; with a repeat of this in Junior year….both were the result of New Deal educational reform and both were quietly eliminated in the Reagan years. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 5, 2014 @ 7:18 am That is the kind of factoid I LOVE…..you might want to read back through the thread as quite conversation has developed around the issue you identify in your comment. After you read through them you might want to weigh back in. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 5, 2014 @ 7:16 am You might want to take a look at my response to the excelelnt observations posted by Vegas Babe in this thread. Let me focus on this statement from you: “The subtext of this poll is what matters, not the context. People are upset because there’s not a lot being done to help the majority in this nation and had they been paying attention just a little bit, they would recognize that it has nothing to do with Obama and everything to do with the Repubs in Congress.” Yes- and that well financed propaganda and misinformation machine has managed to leverage ignorance so that polling like the one cited here (and similar, though less dramatic, polling elsewhere) is now commonplace. I believe, as I stated last night, that the right wing looking at the demographics, looking at the shift in the general populace toward more liberal (liberating) positions reflected most obviously in the Obama election and reelection triggered a coup….and it is happening at all levels of government…..with huge think tanks driving how oceans of money get used to create a Machine. Yes, some of that spending went to naught but there is much more money where that came from and they are using it to buy a government that will do their bidding. It has happened before- in the Gilded Age, and in the interregnum between WWI and WWII for example but I see the creation of a solid, unyielding and uncompromisable electoral base spread throughout the country but with strongholds in the old confederacy and several associated midwestern states as an element in the strategy that is mean to give the right the kind of advantage that unions used to give the left. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 5, 2014 @ 7:13 am You might want to read my reply to Vegas Babe. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 5, 2014 @ 7:04 am You might want to read my reply to Vegas Babe. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 5, 2014 @ 7:03 am I think you are largely correct here. In the 60’s I was against the Vietnam War because…..well at 18 most of my friends were, my father and other olds were not, and the popular political culture was simple minded focused on celebrities, music, acts of defiance….BUT from high school to college I developed a fuller political philosophy as did many of my peers. As I look back it remained remarkably naive but it led me to take on the study of WHY I believed as I did. My generation read more, discussed serious topic more, and were more engaged in civic culture. That was a blip. Since then poitical literacy has declined and much like the the other holes in our knowledge and skills the impact is that we are falling further and further behind. Add to this that this environment of ignoranance is fed by very well financed propaganda and misinformation. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 5, 2014 @ 7:02 am Many are upset, many are fighting back but to counter the power of money what will be needed is a tsunami at the ballot box and I see no signs of this coming. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 5, 2014 @ 6:53 am There is another case making it way through the court that has the potential to be even more disruptive. I have a post coming on that. A comment about your statement that “The republican party has succeeded in blurring the lines between the legislative and judicial branches of government.” The GOP in Congress and its member in the courts have done just that- an activist reactionary judiciary – but let me add that they are not the prime movers. They are agents for the prime movers you identify later in your post: the mega wealthy whose interest in corporate personhood and those cause those persons represent is in the process of undoing the Republic. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 5, 2014 @ 6:52 am Comparing John Adams’ ability to determinedly focus on a priority to your own approach is very enlightening. It explains, at least in part, both why and how you do the Not-So-Funnies every week. Are you and Ad still working on the cross-posting project for DK? I get regular messages over there about his- much interet. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 5, 2014 @ 6:48 am I am speaking of that poll and it is deeply flawed but it reflects most polling. The President is at fault….period….so certain and so wrong. Arrogant ignorance reinforced by well financed propaganda and misinformation. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 5, 2014 @ 6:44 am The Weekend Music Thread-Independence This Land is Your Land
This Land Is Your Land This land is your land This land is my land As I was walking that ribbon of highway, I've roamed and rambled and I followed my footsteps When the sun came shining, and I was strolling, As I went walking I saw a sign there In the shadow of the steeple I saw my people, Nobody living can ever stop me, » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 5, 2014 @ 4:56 pm Religion & The U.S. Constitution: The Official Record I have a copy of it. Available at http://www.amazon.com » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 7, 2014 @ 8:52 pm BTW….I REALLY appreciate having someone of your caliber at the Planet to chat on this topic….you bring real scholarship, integrity and balance to the discussion. Thank you. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 7, 2014 @ 7:50 pm Saw the quotes from Jefferson…. Know most of them. They reflect the complexity of his thinking. I keep imagining him at vestry meetings for his High Episcopal Church – clearly not believing most of the doctrine, and discounting a good bit of the creed…and yet a part of, indeed a leader of a traditionalist Christian church. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 7, 2014 @ 7:47 pm So I see. Right you are. Good catch. I went back to the source (Lambert) and see that he was quoting Paine in relationship to both Founders and Framers. The paragraph remains confusing to me. This is difficult to track down. I suspect that this is in no small part the result of the separation of public association with established churches and private belief. Sidenotes: I ran through the list and recalled that two surprising folks were not there. Jefferson was not a delegate…since he was serving as Minister to France. John Adams was also not there….minister to England and to the Netherlands. Jefferson was a member of the Episcopal Church and a leader of his local congregation, yet his private beliefs are hardly traditional- as that church doctrine represents. Jefferson’s belief system is laid out in “The Jefferson Bible”, or “The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth” as it is formally titled. It was constructed by Jefferson in the latter years by cutting and pasting with a razor and glue numerous sections from the New Testament as extractions of the doctrine of Jesus “cleansed” (he said) of myth. Jefferson’s condensed composition excludes all miracles by Jesus and most mentions of the supernatural, including sections of the four gospels which contain the Resurrection. I suspect he was typical of many of his generation of leaders. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 7, 2014 @ 8:20 am The info is from Frank Lambert. The Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion in America. (Princeton, NJ Princeton University Press, 2003). The 4 include Thomas Paine who was an espoused deist with no church affiliation. Madison was loosely affiliated with the Presbyterian Church but was also a devotee of deism. I don’t know the other names. Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton, and Washington have been called theistic rationalists. As to your perfect 10- all judges votes are secret and kept in a number 10 jar of Helman’s Mao on Funk and Wagnall’s porch. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 6, 2014 @ 8:14 pm Zeke left you a very long comment…want to be sure you see it…..It is near the top of the page. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 5, 2014 @ 5:09 pm Freedom OF is freedom FOR and freedom FROM. You see, the Founders and Framers understood that Freedom OF Religion applies to both the practice of religion and the decision not to practice. It is as much freedom FROM religion as it is freedom FOR religion. Why “from”…because like other institutions in the British Empire churches were instruments of regulation and oppression. The Established CHurch, Anglican, and associated colony specific churches, had many priveleges and for that reason tended to endorse the status quo. And while Christianity was THE Dominant religion in the United States in 1776, and 1789, it came in such variety with differences so profound that protection from excesses by one over others was deemed a necessity. Framers also addressed concerns related to Jews, Deists and Rationalists (i.e. Atheists). Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestant, two were Roman Catholics. That is 51. Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Anglican/Episcopalian, 8 were Presbyterians, 7 were Congregationalists, 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Dutch Reformed, two were Methodists. Two of their number were “unaffiliated” which might mean they were deists. There were two Jews. The leading Founders (Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton, and Washington) have been shown to be supporters of a hybrid “theistic rationalism”. However church attendance and support of a church were the norm to which the Founders held as proper form within society. Throughout the writings of many of the Founding and Framing generation one finds references to the “god of nature, of reason, of providence”…this was the language of the Enlightenment, from which the Founders’ intellectual tradition sprang. It provided common ground, apart from any particular tradition, which was often divisive, to consider the nature and role of the deity. For Jefferson, for example, the deity was best understood as Hagia Sophia…Holy Wisdom. For Franklin, the idea of the Divine Clockmaker was attractive- building the mechanism, winding it up, setting it down, and then walking aware. Both men were formally Anglican/Episcopalian….but their writings show that they were not bound by the Church of England’s creed (as was Geroge Wythe of Va. for example). The Declaration of Independence speaks of “the Creator” of “Providence” and “nature’s God.” NOTE: No God the Father, Jehovah, Yahweh, Jesus, or Holy Spirit. In the Constitution: The reference to the deity is found in one place, the date. Anno Domini. I agree that non-belief was rare and largely hidden in their society but the principle of belief or non belief is certainly clear in the Bill of Rights and in their writing. Recall that adherence to the creed of one denomination over another had divided the colonies, and divided the colonists from the British government. The Enlightenment provided the philosophical foundation for the Revolution, and for the Founders and Framers. And the root of that philosophy was free inquiry and open mindedness. Further the government was deeply rooted in a secular authority not a religious one…the social contract. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 5, 2014 @ 5:08 pm Is The United States Of America A Christian Nation? My source is Historian Gregg L. Frazer who argues that the leading Founders (Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton, and Washington) were neither Christians nor Deists, but rather supporters of a hybrid “theistic rationalism” Gregg L. Frazer, The Religious Beliefs of America’s Founders: Reason, Revelation, and Revolution (University Press of Kansas; 2012) Theistic rationalism is a hybrid of natural religion, Christianity, and rationalism, in which rationalism is the predominant element. Thus reason is the lens through which matters of faith are viewed and weighed for authenticity. Theistic rationalists believe that God plays an active role in human life as a source of guidance, inspiration and support. Prayer is understood to be communication with the divine spirit present in the universe. They accept parts of the Bible as divinely inspired, using reason as their criterion for what to accept or reject.Their belief that God intervenes in human affairs to inspire the actions of the right thinking and their approving attitude toward parts of the Bible distinguish theistic rationalists from Deists. Thus, the Declaration Congress and the Constitutional Convention were “acts of God.” Jefferson is an interesting example of this in practice. Jefferson was a member of the Episcopal Church and a leader of his local congregation, yet his private beliefs are hardly traditional- as that church doctrine represents. Jefferson’s belief system is laid out in “The Jefferson Bible”, or “The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth” as it is formally titled. It was constructed by Jefferson in the latter years by cutting and pasting with a razor and glue numerous sections from the New Testament as extractions of the doctrine of Jesus “cleansed” (he said) of myth. Jefferson’s condensed composition excludes all miracles by Jesus and most mentions of the supernatural, including sections of the four gospels which contain the Resurrection. I suspect he was typical of many of his generation of leaders. I regard most of the references to providence, the divine, God as efforts to transcend the peculiarities of individual churches by embracing this concept of the divine as inspirational and aspirational. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 7, 2014 @ 8:33 am And only a small handful of the framers favored a theistic approach to governance— some because they were rationalists, others because they knew how deep the conflicts were among practitioners and how deeply the nation would be if any particular tradition were adopted. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 6, 2014 @ 8:19 pm KT left you a long post- applies to yours and Zeke’s….near the top of the page. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 5, 2014 @ 5:17 pm Freedom OF is freedom FOR and freedom FROM. You see, the Founders and Framers understood that Freedom OF Religion applies to both the practice of religion and the decision not to practice. It is as much freedom FROM religion as it is freedom FOR religion. Why “from”…because like other institutions in the British Empire churches were instruments of regulation and oppression. The Established Church, Anglican, and associated colony specific churches, had many privileges and for that reason tended to endorse the status quo. And while Christianity was THE Dominant religion in the United States in 1776, and 1789, it came in such variety with differences so profound that protection from excesses by one over others was deemed a necessity. Framers also addressed concerns related to Jews, Deists and Rationalists (i.e. Atheists). Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestant, two were Roman Catholics. That is 51. Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Anglican/Episcopalian, 8 were Presbyterians, 7 were Congregationalists, 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Dutch Reformed, two were Methodists. Two of their number were “unaffiliated” which might mean they were deists. There were two Jews. The leading Founders (Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton, and Washington) have been shown to be supporters of a hybrid “theistic rationalism”. However church attendance and support of a church were the norm to which the Founders held as proper form within society. Throughout the writings of many of the Founding and Framing generation one finds references to the “god of nature, of reason, of providence”…this was the language of the Enlightenment, from which the Founders’ intellectual tradition sprang. It provided common ground, apart from any particular tradition, which was often divisive, to consider the nature and role of the deity. For Jefferson, for example, the deity was best understood as Hagia Sophia…Holy Wisdom. For Franklin, the idea of the Divine Clockmaker was attractive- building the mechanism, winding it up, setting it down, and then walking aware. Both men were formally Anglican/Episcopalian….but their writings show that they were not bound by the Church of England’s creed (as was Geroge Wythe of Va. for example). The Declaration of Independence speaks of “the Creator” of “Providence” and “nature’s God.” NOTE: No God the Father, Jehovah, Yahweh, Jesus, or Holy Spirit. In the Constitution: The reference to the deity is found in one place, the date. Anno Domini. I agree that non-belief was rare and largely hidden in their society but the principle of belief or non belief is certainly clear in the Bill of Rights and in their writing. Recall that adherence to the creed of one denomination over another had divided the colonies, and divided the colonists from the British government. The Enlightenment provided the philosophical foundation for the Revolution, and for the Founders and Framers. And the root of that philosophy was free inquiry and open mindedness. Further the government was deeply rooted in a secular authority not a religious one…the social contract. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 5, 2014 @ 5:15 pm Corporations Are Religious Extremists Too! Remember that the New Testament is written in the first 150 years of the Christian Era placing it 1200 years before even the most basic of the empirical, math and precise observation sciences emerges. The closest comparison would be the work of Aristotle and the Greek Physical Philosophers whose work is interesting but almost entirely wrong in terms of the science of the late Middle Ages and Renaissance. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 1, 2014 @ 10:04 pm Thanks for keeping an eye out for that list from the women’s groups. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 1, 2014 @ 9:37 pm It is not science as we understand it but it was their effort to explain the workings of the natural order. Sometimes we dismiss the description of the universe in Genesis 1 as symbolic mythic poetry but there is ample evidence that the ancient Hebrews regarded the description as an accurate image of the universe as they knew it. If science does not work for you then perhaps natural philosophy is better. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 1, 2014 @ 9:34 pm Those charged with impeachment are those we elect to represent us in the House. SO, there will be no impeachment of any member of the court. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On July 1, 2014 @ 9:10 pmComments Posted By MurphTheSurf3
Pete Seeger, the Boss and a Cast of Ten of Thousands
Words and Music by Woody Guthrie
From California to the New York island;
From the red wood forest to the Gulf Stream waters
This land was made for you and Me.
I saw above me that endless skyway:
I saw below me that golden valley:
This land was made for you and me.
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts;
And all around me a voice was sounding:
This land was made for you and me.
And the wheat fields waving and the dust clouds rolling,
As the fog was lifting a voice was chanting:
This land was made for you and me.
And on the sign it said "No Trespassing."
But on the other side it didn't say nothing,
That side was made for you and me.
By the relief office I seen my people;
As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking
Is this land made for you and me?
As I go walking that freedom highway;
Nobody living can ever make me turn back
This land was made for you and me.
http://teachingamericanhistory.org/convention/delegates/
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