• choicelady : You, too AdLib and Murph!

  • AdLib : Night CL! Have a wonderful weekend!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Goodnight!

  • AdLib : Take care Murph!

  • choicelady : AdLib and Murph – I’m going, too, and had a wonderful time with you both and everyone tonight. GREAT discussion. See you next week I hope!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice and AdLib….thanks for all of the input…

  • choicelady : Murph – we’re all interested, and it will be a huge discussion Tuesday I’m sure. I will feed you all I learn from our US Attorney. My one fear about him, whom I have known for years, is that when Perez goes to Labor, HE may be recruited as the Civil Rights head in DC and then I will just curl up and die from losing him here. He’s amazing.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Well folks. I am certainly glad I stopped by after my less than happy meeting tonight….this was a boost. Until next time.

  • AdLib : Murph – Yes, you can’t be tried twice for the same crime but the Feds can charge a murderer for violating the civil rights of another citizen or for hate crimes, both of which would be charges other than murder but connected to the murder. And SYG has no bearing on either.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- direction re. what the hate crime possibilities might be.

  • choicelady : Murph – those who watch FOX are just never going to be happy. Just are not.

  • choicelady : Murph – direction in which “this”? If it’s ACA in CA you won’t find anything. Otherwise – I’m lost here.

  • AdLib : Murph – Yes, I think he had been thinking about all of this for some time, years probably, but this outrage probably crystallized what he wanted to say and gave him the opportunity to say it. This was the earnest speech of a black man who acts as a President for all of us but knows the pain that a big part of the nation is dealing with.

  • choicelady : Murph – that’s a very cool story, but it’s also kind of sad. I do know – I’m white – that it happens.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib and Choice….Before the meeting I had to stop at a local hardware store. There was a group talking about the speech in very unflattering terms…Many were citing Hannity’s analysis that Obama is now identifying himself as a gang member and pot smoker…..so here you go.

  • AdLib : Murph – What he did, speaking from his personal knowledge and experience as a black man, was become a bridge between communities, sharing the hard realities that black men and women have to live with while being able to speak to white Americans in a way that makes them receptive. Quite a feat, one that no other President has ever done.

  • choicelady : AdLib/Murph – what is amazing to me is that his talk today was not seen by anyone I know (admittedly an unusual crowd of people) as making him a “Black” president. It was so broad and comprehensive and so inclusive that tons of white people who care but not deeply involved were really touched by it all. OK – I know no Baggers at all, but it resonated with millions of people who are NOT Black.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- I need to get some more direction in this. I will do some reading.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- my sister tells a story of pulling up to a stop light with our mom when we were living in Texas and a car with a bunch of black kids pulling up next to their car. My mother told my sister to lock the car doors on her side while my mother did the same on her side (manual locks). The man driving the car, with what were probably his kids, clearly saw what they were doing. He said something and then he and his kids all waved at my mother and sister. My sister waved back and my mom made a turn that took her out of her way- she could not deal with it.

  • AdLib : CL – Love all you said and I hope you’re right. I do think the DoJ wants to get everything they possibly can to help them build a strong enough case to proceed so they’re pulling out all the stops. Agreed, just as he was there for the Aurora and New Town families, he wanted to be there for the whole black community who rightly feel victimized by this verdict. It was unprecedented, this speech should be the start of something bigger too, he should continue to stand tall against racism and lead us as a people to be a better nation. He can be that kind of great President, he has been remarkable but this could signal a new stage of his Presidency.

  • choicelady : Murph – not necessarily, but I do not think the feds would go after him on murder. I dealt with that in NY when the state court and federal court both went after the assassin of an abortion provider. They both charged murder, and even had he gotten off on STATE charges, the federal FACE law permitted the feds to charge him with it under different standards. Same here though I get NO rumblings that they will do that. But hell – I get no rumblings at ALL. I will see our US Attorney Tuesday. I’m sure this is THE topic for our quarterly Hate Crimes Task Force meeting! I will let everyone know what I learn.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- the state trial provides him with immunity from prosecution for the murder does it not?

  • choicelady : Murph – oh my yes, and it made it especially wonderful to have him ‘speak from the heart’. That’s another reason he waited – to be sure of what he wanted to say to be able to say it without having written it down.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- and your thinking is also sound. I need to spend some time with both excellent responses. Did it seem to you both AD LIB and CHOICE that the remarks seemed extemporaneous- no notes, no prompter….or is this just another example of Obama’s considerable memory?

  • AdLib : Murph – I don’t know that beating the murder rap in a SYG state really means anything to the Feds who don’t have that to deal with. It may be tough but I think a case of racism could indeed be built against Zimmerman though whether it would be strong enough for a hate crime conviction, I don’t know.

  • choicelady : Murph – that maybe was the most important part. I loved that. I know he’s right about the locking of car doors, and the dis-ease of white women in elevators. He really nailed it by pointing out the fear that divides us.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- one more thought…I also think he wanted to broaden the discussion to take in the entire experience of growing up black, and especially as a black male.

  • choicelady : AdLib – may I answer, too? I don’t think Holder would have issued that alert via our US Attorneys if there was NOTHING they could do. I do think PBO worked through the week to find his “voice” on this, and knew he wanted to say something positive and energizing and uplifting to everyone especially the Black community but to us all who are of good heart. Yeah – I think the community organizer part but also the presidential mode. But he’s measured and thoughtful and wanted to get it correct, not just off the cuff. He also probably needed to sort out his own feelings – he had to be as shocked as anyone at the verdict. What he did was amazing. He is the best president of my lifetime. He will help us all keep focused, keep moving.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- very sound thinking. I believe that all apply. I do not see a civil rights complaint having the legs it needs to run the race successfully. The bar is SO high. And given that the murder rap was beaten finding a wedge to drive a complaint through is very tricky. So….I think he acted for the reasons you lay out and quite clearly.

  • AdLib : Murph – A couple of possibilities in my mind on Obama’s speech. Maybe he’s discussed with Holder that a fed case isn’t going to happen so he gave the black community something else to hold onto? Maybe he felt that as President, he couldn’t let this evidence of racism in our judicial system go unanswered by the first black President. Maybe he sees how upset and scared the black community was and had to do something about it. And maybe, as a former community organizer, he saw this as a pivotal moment to bring people together to solve this problem he has fought to fix all his career. What do you think?

  • choicelady : Murph – as they used to say on “The A Team” (which I loved for whatever reason) “I love it when a plan comes together.” Well that’s ACA.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice/Ad Lib- my read on the Mo insurers is like yours. This strategy seems to be one that is bound to lose.

  • choicelady : AdLib – all insurance is regulated by the states. Even federally expansive corporations are still different state by state. But the federal plan can totally undermine them all. Suddenly – MO has single payer. HAH!

  • AdLib : KT – I like your thinking! We sure do need to have a little chill out time, sounds great!

  • choicelady : Murph – Nope. He just did it when he could do it. It was pretty damned amazing.

  • AdLib : Murph – Interesting, I don’t know how that would play out with the insurers in state, aren’t they national insurance companies? If so, I would think the Feds would have far more leverage with them. And yes, it’s just magical thinking for Repubs to think that having a majority in the Senate would change anything about the ACA. The Dems could filibuster as the Repubs did and Obama won’t sign away his signature achievement. Ridiculous thinking. They may go kicking and screaming but the ACA is the law of the land and so are exchanges, the state can’t stop them.

  • choicelady : ADLib – HOPE is indeed important!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : I noticed that you all talked about the President’s impromptu address re. race today….did any of you figure out why today, why in that way?

  • choicelady : KT – that sounds just GREAT for a theme. Have to have smiles along with the seriousness!

  • choicelady : Murph – I have read that if private insurers won’t be in the program, the feds will keep one going anyway, MUCH cheaper and comprehensive. It spins off the High Risk Pool experience which worked GREAT. So I think they can opt out – but it won’t help them at all. Federal insurance in MO should run about $200 per month for individuals and not much more for families, while private is $1200 and up. So…

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, With all the anger about injustice and inequality, I thought it would be nice to just enjoy some summer tunes. I could make the thread about anger and injustice every weekend, but that would soon become boring. We need some sunshine smiles, at least for a couple of days.

  • AdLib : GOing back to our discussion about the Repubs winning in 2010, they won based on outright lies which is why I see HOPE as important, a bulwark against Repubs doing that again.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- I know that a number of the big insurers here are under a lot of pressure from the state not to cooperate in the exchanges- again I think that this is all about delay until the GOP takes back the Senate and pressures Obama to further modify ACA….I think it’s nonsense but that seems to be the strategy. As to medicaid- I remain astounded when I think of how many poor people vote GOP in this state.

  • choicelady : And I – but it’s 10, I know you’re tired, so if you want to pack it in, I’m fine with that. Sorry to miss Murph’s response, but we’ll pick it up next week.

  • AdLib : Well, I’m still here!

  • choicelady : Where’d MURPH go now? We keep losing people!

  • AdLib : Night Killgore! Looking forward to the Music Thread as usual!

  • AdLib : Murph – As to the RW grip on power in some states, doesn’t it seem more desperate? What policies for a better future does the GOP have to offer anymore? They have the loyalty of the religious extremists, racists and gun nuts…but their percentage of the population is pretty rapidly shrinking. How is there a future for them? I think they will continue to try and disenfranchise Dem voters and stay committed to the Bagger mentality and eventually, just not be able to sustain themselves.

  • choicelady : Good night, KT – look forward to the music. Do you have a theme yet?

  • KillgoreTrout : Well good people, I think I’ll say goodnight and begin work on the weekend music thread. Have a wonderful weekend.

  • choicelady : Murph – NO ONE knows how horrible the private contractor is save for the groups such as mine that were awarded contracts to promote ACA and help people find ways to enroll. Several of us are on the warpath – a palace revolt is in the offing because it’s hideously dysfunctional. I think the actual program MAY be OK if this contractor has no role, but as far as promotion and setting up enrollment – they are in charge and just ruining it. NO ONE knows this at all – I am one of the people leading the angry charge. We will go public if we must, but we’re trying to keep it quiet for the moment. Don’t want bad publicity – just want it FIXED.

  • AdLib : CL – Whoops, I meant Medicaid, right! If the Feds can do that, it will be so sweet!

  • KillgoreTrout : My learning from the Tao Te Ching makes it possible, but also teaches me that it is to be worked at.

  • choicelady : AdLib – it’s Medicaid they’re refusing, not Medicare. And the feds will sneak it in via ACA.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- the PR associated with the CA plan is so over the top positive that your assessment surprises me. I need to do some research

  • KillgoreTrout : Agreed Murph, but it’s not easy.

  • choicelady : Murph – although I had family in Gentry County and later in Kansas city, I’ve never lived in MO. But yeah – TN, KY, MO even IN are very much alike.

  • AdLib : Murph – The upside is that the Feds will be running the state exchanges in MO and that will be more likely to assure their success than MO Repubs trying to sabotage it. As for the Medicare refusals, unfortunately, I think the red states that are punishing the poor in their state (and in MO that includes a lot of white people too), will be suffering the financial and health fallout. They will be putting themselves at a growing disadvantage.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- TN is pretty close to what life in Mo is like I think.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ah Ad, that is why such importance lies with raising strong children. I think as we get older, we become somewhat jaded or semi-resigned to the way things are. Children know different and should be encouraged to “question authority.”

  • choicelady : Murph – the feds will have a program, and it will be very good. Many will benefit, and once that happens, the anger will subside. My CA experiences with the Exchange are SO AWFUL that I actually think states with federal access will find it is much better. CA was to be the leader – and for a whole lot of reasons, it is looking horrible from really bad planning about turning management over to a private contractor that is doing HUGE damage. So you might be surprised if MO turns out better than CA! I won’t be. I am totally fed up with what’s happening here!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT- yes….the injustice that both verdicts represent is powerful AND makes it clear that we must fight for systemic changes and not just react to the wrong being done at the gut level.

  • KillgoreTrout : The term “emo progs,” is an interesting one. It really does give a place to those who mean well, but let their emotions block their reason. I experienced this myself after the Zimmerman verdict and then again on reading about the woman in FLA who was sentenced to 20 YEARS for firing a warning shot to stop her abusive husband from attacking her…again.” It’s just horrifying to consider.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- as you may know Mo. is one of the states decided not to set up its own health insurance exchange and not to take medicaid expansion funds….both will slow down ACA’s impact here very significantly AND the very people who should be outraged at this are blaming it on Obama

  • choicelady : Murph – having lived in TN in the darkest of days, I am aware of the power of hate. You already have made change. That is all you can do. Or move which seems highly impractical what with your farm and all. But you DO make a difference.

  • AdLib : KT – Yes but in some cases, you have to bide your time until you’re at your strongest to combat those more powerful than you. I don’t fault anyone in a red state for feeling scared about standing up against most of their neighbors, customers, co-workers, etc. Those of us in Progressive and moderate states need to get the train rolling first so others can jump aboard.

  • choicelady : KT – glad you’re OK – when you drop off the ‘balcony’ one worries.

  • choicelady : Murph – I think you may become the beneficiary of ACA in MO. Once people find they can finally have health care they can afford, suddenly “that one” won’t be so scary. You already helped families, and now more is on the way. People begin to change when they stop being frightened OR they’ve hit bottom OR both. I have no GREAT hopes for MO, but I do for the nation. Just hang in and keep doing what you’re doing – it all counts. ALL of it.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ha cl, just a brief step into the kitchen. Glad you asked.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- your thoughts on the unhealthiness of progressive movements in progressive labeled states are very interesting. We seem to have little organized common ground here and efforts fall apart easily after the energy associated with peak events passes. And yes, I am in a sucky state with religious and political zealotry riding high.

  • choicelady : Yikes – what happened to KT???

  • AdLib : If you look at the RW places like Fox News, you see that there is a total lack of awareness of how many of those they attack are standing up and fed up. They are in their little bubble, preaching to their choir and thinking that every event is just fodder for them to attack the ones they despise. They don’t understand what’s happening right now, just as they didn’t when OWS started up. I think big things will be happening and 2014 will be a big year for the black community and Dems.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT- I do agree

  • choicelady : Murph – my grandfather was from Albany, Gentry County, and he was ultimately a racist, anti-Semitic Libertarian, so I have a sense of what you’re up against! My family!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- as you point out- in states like Mo. the risk of getting in front of the parade is really great but national movements are usually dismissed as not being applicable here (by both sides). This is a very insular place. My experience is the same in SC.

  • KillgoreTrout : Murph and Ad, I’m sure you agree that silence is complacency.

  • choicelady : Murph – you just happen to be in a really sucky state. With Springfield the center of Assemblies of God, and Branson host every year to white supremacy campaigns, and the Ozarks meth central, and your politics – yeah. It purely hurts to think about it. But it is NOT all that way, and part of the effort has to be building alliances that are strong. You probably have the dubious distinction of being a non confederate state with HUGE confederate leanings – it was a slave state – but all is NOT lost. It’s just harder. Hang in there!

  • AdLib : Murph – Thanks for posting the NAACP petition link, many have signed on because of it, well done!

  • KillgoreTrout : I agree Murph. There is no complacent majority in this. Except for the racists.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT- happy to have raised the NAACP petition banner here. The numbers there are encouraging.

  • KillgoreTrout : Well Ad, if they are taught to be strong, they will overcome the weak old ones, which may involve punishment. The main point is to raise strong children, physically and morally. I think that is what JFK was trying to get across to all Americans.

  • choicelady : Murph – to be blunt, the worst state I’ve been in for progressive politics is CA. It is incredibly “ol boy” ridden with too many forces unwilling to do really challenging work. In addition to the obvious union stuff in WI, MN, etc,m Ohio, PA, Western NY, even OK are doing MORE but getting no notice. That’s what energizes me – I am getting to see the underground work that is just getting stronger by the day. Check out Business Alliance for Local Living Economies.See if there are people in MO (a quick check did not let me know that) because there are amazing networks of people doing superb things. BALLE is its acronym.

  • AdLib : Murph – Well, Obama did win two elections, the nation favors gun restrictions, gay marriage, pot legalization…I ‘d guess that the states you mention wouldn’t really be behind most if any of those. So I think the case can be made that the majority does want progress and change but a sizable minority want to keep the white, male conservative superiority and power thing in place. Those latter areas will be among the last to change but that doesn’t mean that change isn’t coming for most of the country.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- getting to know the law is key- we agree; and the agents of the law-ditto. To date there has been some effective push back, but I fear that a multi front assault from the state assembly is going to be hard to counter.

  • KillgoreTrout : I surely hope the petition on behalf of the NAACP and right thinking people everywhere is successful in bringing a civil right’s complaint against Zimmerman. Thanks again Murph for supplying the link. I know millions are outraged about the jury’s decision.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sue- the UN….this could reanimate the John Birch Society! Seriously, what could the UN do? I like the idea; the principle of the thing but could the UN have a real impact?

  • SueInCa : Now I think I am going to fly fly away. Thanks to all for a great evening.

  • AdLib : KT – I’m all for doing both, having our strong children punish bad old men.

  • SueInCa : If it gets bad enough Murph, the UN WILL step in, make no mistake about it and the right will howl that much louder. The Charter gives them that right to insure free elections. They almost did it in 2012. No I did not go all the way away lol

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- well perhaps they were lucky in 2010, and perhaps because I have spent the last 10 years in states where the light of progressivism is a flickering candle I am a bit gloomy. It would be good if your predictions are more on target than mine.

  • AdLib : Murph – CL was talking about this earlier, how difficult it is and how risky to safety and income for people to stand up against a RW white majority in a state. SO it would seem that the reaction you’re describing is not as surprising. I wouldn’t expect the black and Progressive communities in red states to be at the forefront of a racial equality movement but if it catches fire across the rest of the country, maybe they will feel freer to join in.

  • choicelady : Murph – don’t give up on Arizona v Inter Tribal Councils of AZ that forbid voter ID to register. Not to say they cannot demand it elsewhere, but it significantly undermines their efforts. Get to know your US Attorney – I have no clue who that is or where (or how many districts you may have) but working with that office can empower you to know the laws and the alternatives you have via the feds if any. I’d imagine he or she is in St Louis and they tend to be willing from my experiences in several jurisdictions to tell citizens the rights and appeals they have available – and what you do NOT have. Always good to know.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sleep tight Sue. Wonderful seeing you here, as always.

  • AdLib : Same here, Sue, great chat tonight! Have a great weekend!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- in Mo., as I think you know, we have a solidly GOP legislature and Dems in most of the executive positions- schizo government. The voter id thing is alive and well here along with efforts to limit absenteeism, early voting etc. The push to deflate the dem centers is really on.

  • AdLib : Murph – I don’t think the Repubs were brilliant to win in 2010, they just told the public what they wanted to hear, “Things are STILL bad and Obama’s been in office for a year! Do you want to keep suffering or do you want us to wave our magic wand and make everything better by cutting the deficit…and stopping the Death Panels of Obamacare? Huh?” I don’t think they will ever get that kind of luck for a very long time. You’re right, we’re stuck with an over-representat ion of Repubs until 2020 but we still should be able to pry their hands off of power along the way.

  • choicelady : Murph – let’s just be kind here. Missouri NEVER was a hotbed of change. True to form, they are doing what they’ve always done. I’m sad for YOU, but I’m not at all surprised.

  • KillgoreTrout : Yeah CL, I thought so too. What great wisdom.

  • choicelady : KT – GREAT sentiment!

  • choicelady : Sue – have a great week! Hope to see you before long if the gnomes running our grant program LET me. Another week of disastrous bad planning. Sigh. Glad you worked with me on a GOOD project. You’d have shot me by now on this one.

  • KillgoreTrout : I’m not sure if I have this verbatim, but I read a wonderful quote lately. “It is more productive to raise strong children than it is to try and punish weak old men.”

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sue- good night and thanks for the cheering.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice-Sue-Ad Lib….perhaps because I am one of the heartland states that is not often thought of as being “confederate” and have lots of other midwest contacts, I am more sanguine when it comes down to seeing the movement that you all are seeing. Here- the response to the Martin verdict is anger but its rather listless. Tonights meeting was not promising and some of our best attended.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I want to see this happen. It was my parents’ legacy in the 30s, I lived through it in the 60s and wish to do so again. But unless we REALLY grow up, it will backtrack. That makes me glad I am old enough for it NOT to probably happen before I croak.

  • AdLib : CL – Love hearing about those kinds of things. The seeds are all being planted and the chutes are rising up, the question is more of a “when” than “if”. The elites can’t help but make the same mistake over and over, greed pushes them to keep taking money, rights, lives, etc. and they never see that there is only so far you can push the public until they snap back and slap you. They will never know when the final straw is laid on the camel’s back…until it is too late. Perhaps this was it, maybe not but the time is coming.

  • SueInCa : Well guys, I must sign off now. What a interesting and scintillating convo tonight. I really enjoyed even if some things were not settled. Open discussion is always the best. Have a good evening everyone

  • choicelady : Murph – it’s going to be interesting to see what those redistricted states do next year. There are rumors of people moving INTO white conservative areas to vote then going home. THAT will feed the voter fraud issue to a fare thee well, but…maybe there is no alternative.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad…I agree that this is a battle of inches and not miles. The demographics work against the right wing agenda, but they have proven adept at winning critical, and often off radar battles (like the 2010 midterm where all of those state legislatures fell guaranteeing them control of redistricting and securing a dominant role until at least 2020).

  • choicelady : Murph – I think MO is an purely embattled state. I know a LOT about Springfield and its politics, and they are horrible. The Ashcroft legacy really did dirt to MO, and his unleashing of the extreme racists and RW is going to be hard to counteract. But – the first two civil rights movements were very erratic, too. Not uniform, not all states at the same time. YOUR role is huge – you help people become empowered. It just is not going to happen overnight.

  • SueInCa : Also the majority of black and latinos are not prone to settling in the mid west.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, Manson actually took advantage of the race riots, like in Watts, and the rise of Black power. He based the war to end all wars on this. He knew, but he was a psycho who thought the Beatles were talking to him, explicitly, telling him to spark Helter Skelter. The lyrics “I’m coming down fast but I’m miles above you,” had a particular interest for Charlie. Basically, Manson was striking back at all the percieved injustice he felt from half a lifetime in the prison system.

  • SueInCa : But Murph, they will go national if they can. That is where I would look. And perhaps there are enough to represent them as well from other states. No one wants to see more killings, but rights are essential to all citizens

  • choicelady : AdLib – Black and labor communities all over the Rust Belt are doing amazing things on employee ownership, legal squatting in abandoned houses (you can own it if you fix it up – common law) and other innovative strategies. It’s very exciting.

  • AdLib : Take care Funk!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sue- I would think the Latino community would be where you say yours is. Here in Mo. both black and Latino communities keep their heads down to avoid being seen as trouble makers and boat rockers….hard to get any leaders to step up.

  • SueInCa : I also think the really well off states are not your southern states, they are northern states, coastal states. But I am ashamed to have relatives from NC I can tell you that.

  • AdLib : Funk – That is great to see, Rahm has tried to pull the rug out from under the community there and they just won’t back down.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sue- yes the Wake County victory was important but its the exception in the state. The Million and Billion club has lots of cards in their stacks and they just keep playing them until inertia takes effect.

  • choicelady : Sue – no, but you also have Alabama Arise which has been going on since about 2005 and still holds liberal whites and the Black community together over tax justice. That ought to get a jump start. It’s not uniform, but it IS happening.

  • SueInCa : I read it too Adlib on a night I was all alone at home….bad decision

  • AdLib : KT – Right, it’s been a while but I read Helter Skelter, fascinating book and look into Manson. He was of course hoping to start a race war…little did he know it was already in progress.

  • SueInCa : NC is not a representative state either. It is not as NC goes, so goes the nation. Night Funk

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Take care funk…

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, thanks, but how would you define murder? Is killing in war murder? Often times it is. many soldiers have been killed needlessly and many soldiers have killed, needlessly. Where is the difference between the two?

  • funksands : Folks I have to roll. Sorry to be popping in and out, very distracted. Stay safe and have an awesome weekend!

  • AdLib : Murph – I do see this as a protracted social war, the South didn’t just drop their racism and accept the Civil Rights Act. I think it will take the more Progressive and moderate states to come together, win elections and move the rest of the states kicking and hollering into the 21st Century. BTW, I know there are plenty of Progressives in those states, in TX, MO, GA, etc., they just happen to be in a minority right now so not grouping all the people in any state together.

  • SueInCa : Wake county fought them and won Murph, they are the minority.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- NC….here is the problem….a very wealthy man and his allies has pretty much bought up the state government. Art Pope and the Kochs have seized school boards, district planning boards, legislative districts and they have a stranglehold on the state assembly and the governor’s office. Their agents are using Moral Mondays for fund raising and crowd rousing outside of the capitol – saying that “they” want anarchy and immorality while “we” are the good guys.

  • SueInCa : I do believe that is what August 28 is all about Fuynk

  • funksands : CL, he’s at his wits end. Furious. I love seeing that asshole angry.

  • choicelady : Absolutely – and seeing the faith community rise again is very exciting for us!

  • funksands : CL, once they start working together they’ll steamroll. They are getting closer.

  • choicelady : funk – but at lest Rahm can sort of deal with the new organizing. Were it Daley the elder, not so much!!!

  • choicelady : funk – I do agree. And the labor community is highly integrated, and I see an interesting commitment to civil rights over Section IV of the CRA from the LGBT communities around the nation. Put all those pieces together – majority rules.

  • funksands : Chicago is once again leading the way in urban organizing. They are driving Rahm batshit right now. I love it.

  • SueInCa : Murph I think you might be reading the Latino community wrong. I have a very large latino family by marriage and I can tell you most are very outraged because they have experienced the “other” or the gun at their head for being brown

  • funksands : It took a whole hell of lot of outrage and offenses to goad the union and civil rights movement. It’s a cumulative effect. This just adds to the pile. Pile is getting bigger. Is it at the combustion point yet? Nope. But the pile just keeps getting bigger.

  • choicelady : Murph – I agree with AdLib that when the racial injustices got so clear in the jury verdict, it energized millions throughout the nation. I do know that white people are joining in, and all our organization’s member denominations (Protestants) are making this a BIG deal in their work over the next years. Big changes, very recent, and very much unnoticed at the moment. I’d hope the MO Council of Churches would follow suit, but they’re pretty much dissolved anyway, so we’ll have to see if anyone emerges to lead in either faith, secular, or both communities.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, as Vincent Bugliosi told Manson, all you did Vharlie was play a bunch of prison games on naive, gullible children. Manson was actually scared to death of the Black Panthers. He tried to pin the Gary hindman murder on the Panthers, plus he shot one of them in a drug deal gone bad, thinking he had killed the guy. He was terrified of retribution by the Panthers. Thus his whole Black man rising, then losing scenario that he called Helter Skelter.

  • AdLib : Sue – These emoprogs rise in visibility at times but they are mostly impotent. Hedges, Smiley, West, they have few real followers in the black community and elsewhere. They will be passed over once again.

  • SueInCa : That is what I am seeing to CL and FAWN is very active.Faith Action for Women in Need

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- you could be correct, but I have contacts in Missouri, South Il., Kansas, Nebraska, Wi and MI and we are all seeing the same thing….an excited left jumping on to its next cause; an emotional black community with limited Hispanic support, and white support from the left but none of us have much confidence in its staying power….or its spreading into other communities.

  • choicelady : Sue – Yup!

  • choicelady : Murph – I’m drawing down form NON Blue states here. The push in North Carolina and midwest states is growing by leaps and bounds. The media are not paying attention, but Moral Mondays in NC and similar types of reactions (just look at TX women!) are not going away.

  • AdLib : KT – I oppose drone killings without judicial review for the same reasons. That is why innocents have been killed in our name.

  • SueInCa : CL when you confront them with running on their own ticket, it always outs them

  • choicelady : Sue – Rand’s anti-war position is phony. He voted for Iraq invasion. What he opposes is any and all governmental role in doing discernment on the morality of war. He’s fine with private armies and predatory mercenaries! Just no constitutional limitations or tax expense. Corporations’ wars? Perfectly fine with him.

  • AdLib : Murph – I’m sticking my neck out on this but I would say that those folks are going to be very surprised. Newtown was a tragedy, Zimmerman is an outrage. An entire race, that I would guess is not very represented in that group, is becoming unified along with many of other races who are ashamed and offended by what this trial proved about institutional racism. So, I think those in the NRA strongholds will be energized about killing a black teen and getting away with it and be too tunnelvisioned to see how the majority of Americans feel.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- I completely accept that the energy is real in your environment, but if there is going to be the kind of change where it will do the most good then states like Mo. are very important….if the energy for reform is concentrated in CA, in MA, in WA, then the purple and red states will say that it is more of the us, true americans, against them, liberals, blacks, hispanics, the poor etc. They play the game well.

  • KillgoreTrout : Oh, no doubt Ad. It’s the difference between old and new testaments. I know, Christians usually go by the New Testament, but I think many also use both. It basically comes down to the ten commandments. Keep in mind, there is also a thing as Christianity ala carte.

  • SueInCa : I just do not get him anymore Funk. His hatred for Obama is palpable and he is calling for Liberals to clean up their act but not the right wing? It is all very puzzlling I think he is in love with Libertarianism. I posted an interview he gave to Real News today.

  • choicelady : Sue – I’d agree most people haven’t a clue how RW the Libertarians are. They’re despicable.

  • funksands : I like Chris Hedges a lot. But he is an Objectivist. Most of what he says has to be viewed through that prism

  • SueInCa : I think most I encounter do not even know what the true libertarian platform is, if they did, they sure do not know how to express it

  • choicelady : Murph – I am not seeing the cessation of activism. I think MO may be an exception, but around the nation there is a lot of renewed activism. The ‘stand down’ on guns is entirely inside the beltway NOT among ordinary people who’ve just plain HAD it with lax laws. CA is exceptional, I know, but we’re poised to pass a multi-bill package here in CA in August. I think it will help. And on civil rights? HUGE energies. My husband and I are going to the March on Washington, and I think it will be HUGE. PEOPLE’s momentum is NOT waning.

  • funksands : I like

  • KillgoreTrout : Dahmer made a plea deal and got life without parole. The inmate who killed him was a lifer who wanted to make a name for himself. That often happens with high profile inmates. Were there other reasons that guy killed Dahmer? If there was, it was because Dahmer had killed underage victims.

  • AdLib : KT – Love the epistemological explorations, very good point. I would say though that the difference between nature killing and humans killing is that we have minds and make decisions to kill or not to kill and that is how we divine between what is and isn’t a crime. You can find the same thing in nature, murder is rare in more advanced animal communities and upon seeing one of their group dead, animals express sadness. So, where there are minds, there is a sense of what is good and bad, right and wrong.

  • funksands : Libertarians only exist in Rich 1st-world countries with a strong social contract. That’s what I find so hilarious about them. No libertarians in the 3rd world.

  • SueInCa : I used to admire him but something went so wrong

  • SueInCa : I think we all need to see what the call is in DC. Will they make a call for civil discourse with a plan to hammer it out or are the streets the only place to do so. Chris Hedges seems to want to incite hate against the President and the right.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice….thanks for the update on Glenn and AB

  • choicelady : Sue – i don’t think the Libertarians are growing much despite the EmoProg fantasy with them. Once their homophobia and anti-abortion stances are clear, the Left will ignore them, too.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, how do you feel about killing by drones? Completely lacking any judicial process?

  • funksands : Ad, packs of rabid weasels will always turn on each other eventually. In the meantime, just make soothing noises at them, back them into a corner, put them in a sack and drown them.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : I don’t wish to be a downer but the common sentiment in our group was that this feels like the reaction post Newtown….and that it will peter out….EXCEPT that the NRA and the race baiters seem to come out stronger in their base communities. As several of you have pointed out I am in an area where the assumption is the that the Right Way is the right way.

  • choicelady : funk – when REAL crime falls among Black men, nothing like a lot of trumped up stuff to keep the pistol whipping boys happy.

  • AdLib : Sue – It’s been one overreach after another, it seems to have just piled up so heavily now, it’s inescapable that the elite and Repubs are bent on oppressing 99% of the nation, one group of Americans after another.

  • SueInCa : I agree CL I just hate to see the Libertarians take their place

  • funksands : Crime by black men at a 40 year low…. Lot of bored white vigilantes with guns out there.

  • choicelady : Sue – I think it is the Right’s final call, but it won’t all transform overnight as it did not 1950s to 1960s.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, I completely agree. nature kills by the thousands, good people and bad. Are we not, in a civilized form an extension of Nature? Are we not Nature itself? Deep stuff, and sort of Nietzsche like.

  • SueInCa : I hope it is the Right’s final call…..

  • AdLib : Murph – The consensus here from folks who are working with groups and churches is that a real tide is turning and people are energized to make real change and fight back this racism that has been infecting our society.

  • choicelady : Murph – I’m glad you have places to talk about all this. I hope they remain forever safe places for you?

  • choicelady : Murph – AB has a funeral of a beloved “illegitimate auntie” and glenn has to go to FL to deliver bad news to her mother, though we did not ask what. So we wished them well. Hope they both will be here next week.

  • SueInCa : Do fill us in Murph you have the most volatile community, if you know what I mean

  • choicelady : AdLib – one thing for sure. I am NOT investigating it! I have enough evil doers breathing down my neck, and I don’t want anyone on me who’d slice said neck, thanks. So it remains a purely intellectual discussion. I’m NOT suicidal!

  • SueInCa : I think you may be right KT but not sure. I know some of the girls came up for parole and were denied I would have to go back and read the case again

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- what is going on with AB and Glenn…if that is in the open? As to reaction to the President…..I was at a meeting tonight to talk about the Post-Martin trial and the president’s remarks were front and center.

  • AdLib : Kt – Right, that’s exactly what happened with Manson.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, Manson prides himself on being an “outlaw.” I have seen many, many interviews of Manson. He gets off on these interviews because they ultimately give him a chance to do some chest pounding and attempts to scare people. Manson’s whole trip was instilling fear. No doubt that Mansone is a bad guy. He’ll tell you himself that he is. I am just saying there is a difference between Bundy and Manson.

  • AdLib : CL – I’m not ruling it out, it is not a far reach to imagine the banks who profit from money laundering and the Reagan criminals behind Iran Contra making sure their revenue producers were strongly rooted in the communities that would be best for them and worst for their political adversaries.

  • choicelady : Murph – we just lost AB and glenn. Both have pressing and sad family issues, but the rest of us are debating not race but the death penalty. How are you faring in your community – any positive reaction to the President today?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Greetings Ad Lib

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- looking at the roster of who is “here” I would agree…

  • AdLib : Hey Murph!

  • choicelady : Murph – kind of you to say! But that would fit us all, including YOU. Great to see you!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Howdy Sue…

  • SueInCa : Hi there Murph

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- you are really more of a somebody than an anybody….

  • KillgoreTrout : Manson was originally sentenced to death, but CA abolished the death penalty, in 72 if memory serves me right.

  • SueInCa : It would save money KT

  • choicelady : Murph – define “anybody” and we’ll say HI if we fit your description!

  • SueInCa : California Assessment of Costs by Judge Arthur Alarcon and Prof. Paula Mitchell (2011, updated 2012) The authors concluded that the cost of the death penalty in California has totaled over $4 billion since 1978: $1.94 billion–Pre-Tri al and Trial Costs $925 million–Automat ic Appeals and State Habeas Corpus Petitions $775 million–Federal Habeas Corpus Appeals $1 billion–Costs of Incarceration The authors calculated that, if the Governor commuted the sentences of those remaining on death row to life without parole, it would result in an immediate savings of $170 million per year, with a savings of $5 billion over the next 20 years.

  • choicelady : AdLib – what some mobsters pushed was weed and some heroin. The cocaine, crack, etc. – have to wonder if the Contras did not find the inner city a fertile field. And they were backed by major banks, Reagan’s administration, and everyone wanting to undermine a strong, Black community. I just remain DEEPLY suspicious since it’s too damned coincidental in timing.

  • AdLib : KT – As I mentioned, look at the RW Christians in the South who are fervent about the death penalty. Some have Christianity as a reason to oppose the death penalty, others have it as a reason to support it.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Is anybody still here????

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, I have heard that argument many, many times. i don’t actually believe it to be true. Once a person’s appeals run out, that about it concerning costs beyond incarceration. It doesn’t cost millions of dollars to execute someone.

  • SueInCa : It was AB and a book she was reading KT

  • choicelady : KT – sure, and most of my allies do believe that. I’m just saying we were not. The issue came up about conservative Christians who use “biblical” stuff to promote capital punishment for everyone they hate. I’m just saying our reasons HERE were not religious in nature at all, not even mine.

  • AdLib : CL – SOme of the mob dealt and deal in drugs but you’re right, it was rejected by a number of them. The Godfather movies use that as a major subplot, how those mobsters who were dealing were fighting with those who opposed it. The mob did fall apart in the 1980’s so it isn’t unusual that other drug dealers and cartels stepped in to fill the void.

  • SueInCa : KT if I can ask, what did you think of the prisoner taking Dahmer’s life into his own hands? I cannot remember if he was death penalty or not. It was A

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, not you, or maybe anyone here (although I did see mention of the bible and Christianity). Religion is often used as an argument against capital punishment. The concept of the sancitity of human life is almost always used by those opposing captial punishment. I mean really, surely you know this.

  • choicelady : Sue – I agree about NO WAR. That’s why distracting ourselves with upsets on drones misses, for me, the HUGE issue about war at all. We get sidetracked from the critical issue.

  • AdLib : I get what you’re saying KT and I think it is totally reasonable. It’s not that I have strong feelings about such monsters not dying, it’s that once you give the government power to kill who they decide deserves to die, the obvious cases may not be an issue but there will always be more complicated or even mistaken convictions and that power could commit the very kind of murder of innocent people that the state claims to abhor and find necessary to execute others for.

  • SueInCa : Funk all the times I have been to Mexico and never drank a coca cola

  • choicelady : ADLib – I have a friend who is the nephew of a major – MAJOR – mob leader in New England. The traditional mobs that held sway until the 1980s DID NOT DO DRUGS, not even heroin. They hated it, and they had nothing to do with it at all. Heroin was always pretty small potatoes – and the huge drug push came in the 1980s. Too damned coincidental to me.

  • SueInCa : KT I don’t think we are talking those confessions, they were probably right on, but many others have not been And CL to me no war means no war plain and simple in no shape or form.

  • choicelady : KT – I hear you. I still think life is worse for them, better for the victims.

  • KillgoreTrout : Absolutely CL. That happens more often than socieity is willing to admit.

  • choicelady : funk – well at least she’s addicted to the GOOD stuff. I no longer can drink dark sodas of ANY kind. Do NOT agree with me.

  • AdLib : CL – I wouldn’t doubt there are entanglements but organized crime always preys on the poor and politically weak. Reagan’s criminal Admin may have been in bed with drug dealers but the dealers were there before that. Still, might they have helped those and other dealers get a foothold in black communities? That is possible.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, actually it was an emptying. ;)

  • choicelady : AdLib – the issue with drones to me is that it is so much less lethal than bombs. I remember when Bush bombed constantly in Iraq – and the deaths have gone WAY down. Innocents ALWAYS pay a price in war. We need to debate WAR, not just hardware. We have to get OUT of Afghanistan, and I think we are.

  • SueInCa : I also do not believe in war or drone attacks. I am not sure how Obama sleeps at night but I can disagree with him on that and not stop my support, just like I can agree with friends we think differently, that does not stop our friendship, it enhances it.

  • KillgoreTrout : Was Ted Bundy’s confession false? Gary Ridgeway? Who, by the way was saved from execution for showing authorites where all the bodies were buried. Dahmer, was he falsely accused? The Hillside Strangler, was he falsely accused? I am not talking about accross the board executions here. I think you folks know what I am saying.

  • funksands : CL, that’s it. It tastes like Coke used to taste. I thought she was full of crap until I tasted the two side-by-side. They do taste different.

  • choicelady : AdLib – what I cut off was – never forget the US and UK in the 19th century and the Opium Wars. We did it then, so what’s to stop us now?

  • choicelady : funk – isn’t that the one still made with sugar instead of high fructose syrup? I heard it’s delicious.

  • AdLib : KT – The only excuse I could accept for killing another person is that they represent an imminent threat of death to others. I can’t justify the killings of innocents in war or drone bombings, I am upset by and opposed to that as well. It’s wrong, it’s a crime to kill innocent people.

  • SueInCa : Funk I have an addiction and am trying to wean myself consequently my Friday treat

  • choicelady : AdLib – I used to pooh pooh the idea that drugs were planted in the inner city until Iran Contra. When I lived and worked in inner city Philly, NO drug problem at all. 1960s. By 1980 HUGE problem after Reagan. Before that it was weed – then it got serious. And knowing the Contras sold hard stuff to raise money and knowing that simultaneously BANKS were being hauled up by the feds for laundering drug money, well… I know there are gangs out there now, but in the beginning there was, who? Ot

  • SueInCa : lol I come from a long line of North Carolinians on my dads side, New York and Scotland on my mom’s

  • KillgoreTrout : Any innocent who is executed is a terrible wrong. No system is perfect and never will be. Does that mean we must support monsters that have admitted their monsterous crimes?

  • funksands : My wife is having a temporary addiction to Mexican Coke. I’m trying to wean her off of it.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, how about allthe peole we kill in our trumped up wars? Women, children, old people who have nothing to do with their government’s actions. How do we spiritually justify their murders. How many innocent Iraqis have been slaughtered because of Bush and his cronies?

  • choicelady : Sue! That is so SOUTHERN! You GO girl!

  • AdLib : CL – I don’t know that it began or has sustained as part of a conspiracy but I think the elitist and RW powers that be are very happy to keep the war on drugs rolling to keep oppressing and undermining the black community.

  • SueInCa : I have put it off for as long as I can this week, I am going to have a Cocola

  • choicelady : funk – yeah. I can see that. I will stop then.

  • funksands : I find when I stop screaming at my screen, my typing improves.

  • choicelady : funk – ohhhhh – is THAT the secret? Thanks!

  • SueInCa : Well Manson and his tribe sure did terrorize all of us and he did revel in the telling of the killings.

  • choicelady : KT – my husband once interveiwed Manson. He got his rocks off on the power to direct those killings. To me, Manson is THE WORST ever.

  • funksands : CL, stop typing with your fists. It helps me!

  • choicelady : funk – sorry, there ARE some rumblings… What IS happening to my good grammar?

  • KillgoreTrout : Manson didn’t actually kill anybody himself. Yes, he did order the death of others, but he did not revel in the act of killing, raping and getting off on the cries of those being killed. He is not comparable to somebody like Bundy, who was sexually aroused by murdering young, innocent girls. Is Manson a killer? Of course he is. He is just not the same type of serial killer that Bundy and others were.

  • choicelady : There is some rumblings that make me hope that CA is finally growing up.

  • funksands : CL, that’s really good news!

  • SueInCa : Not saying I could KT but you never know what life will throw at you. I forgot about that CL

  • choicelady : Sue – we just ended Three Strikes for petty offenses. NON violent felonies will no longer count. Was on last year’s ballot. We won!

  • SueInCa : Nor can I KT but I don’t think killing the guy is my choice, I do want him to think about it the rest of his life and if at some point I can forgive, I would have that chance.

  • choicelady : KT – it is FOR victims’ families that many LEOs opposed the death penalty. When that happens, ALL supports for the family disappear. When it’s life – they remain in place. It’s far better for the families to keep the supports. Nothing either way would bring back your daughter.

  • AdLib : KT – The amount that it costs for a death penalty to run its course is far more than imprisoning someone for their life.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, victims also have families, in most cases. I can’t imagine what I would do if my daughter fell victim to somebody like Ted Bundy.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I am possessed of the belief that there IS a conspiracy to feed drugs into inner cities by white privileged people and grind the users out the other into the private prisons. Never discounting setting kids up – the subject of “the New Jim Crow” book about how often and horribly that is done to young Black and Brown males.

  • AdLib : Here’s a link to a similar version of the graphic, it’s outrageous: «link»

  • funksands : Many prisons have convinced state and local reps that their citizens are more valuable to the local economy IN prison than OUT. Pure evil

  • SueInCa : I saw it today I think Adlib

  • SueInCa : Don’t forget the three strikes CL

  • AdLib : And with the privatization and the prison industry dependent on more and more prisoners, they throw their money around to keep and expand mandatory sentences and laws that can help to imprison more and more. Don’t know if you saw the graph I posted about how incarceration rates have skyrocketed since 1980 and The War on Drugs began.

  • choicelady : KT -NO one is using religion as an issue against capital punishment. Not even me.

  • KillgoreTrout : funk, in many states, there is no death penalty.

  • choicelady : Sue – most of the ‘three hots and a cot’ folks do petty stuff to get put in the local pokey rather than prison. But long term offenders DO reoffend because they cannot cope outside.

  • KillgoreTrout : I do not begrudge any of you for your beliefs on such a serious topic. I am certainly not advocating capital punishment in every case. No, not at all. I just see no ggood reason to keep alive, at socieites expense, people like Ted Bundy, the Hillside Strangler, Dahmer and others. I am saying there is a limit to my compassion and belief that all human life is worth saving. I can feel that way because i do not kill, harm, maim, rape, rob…etc. I also don’t believe that religion is the only sort of morality and logic.

  • choicelady : funk – CA is finally making strides on minors and crime. FINALLY.

  • SueInCa : then there are some who want to go in because it is the only bed and three squares they can depend on

  • choicelady : Sue – the ‘rehab’ in our system is a joke yet clear data show that those who get it, who are treated well and engage in restorative justice reduce recidivism hugely. It’s about 15% as opposed to 90% for those with NOTHING.

  • AdLib : CL – TX executes the mentally ill too which many countries would never do. And the GOP loves putting so much of the black population in prison and never giving them their right to vote back after they’ve served their time.

  • funksands : CL, kids are a totally different issue. We are completely out of touch when it comes to child crime.

  • SueInCa : Sometimes a person can go into the prison system and come out a rapist, murderer for the things they endure in there

  • choicelady : KT – I understand. Your bird feeder needing refills, right?

  • choicelady : ADLib – last year we FINALLY passed SB 960 (I think it was) to give a second chance to minors sentenced to life. We discovered the US is the ONLY developed nation doing that, and that kids, in their immaturity, won’t squeal while their adult perps, the ones DOING the crimes, roll over. The kids then get life for just BEING there while the perps do a deal and walk. GOT to stop this. So now we have a way out for them.

  • SueInCa : See how we can discuss the most weird things? lol

  • AdLib : Funk – Though as you said, the application of justice is necessarily uneven and unfair when you have a system that has so many flaws.

  • SueInCa : me too KT

  • KillgoreTrout : Sorry folks, I had to step away for a moment. Nature called.

  • SueInCa : they are the creepy feeling you get when you know a wrong is done right before you get mad

  • choicelady : Sue – what ARE hackles anyway?

  • AdLib : I’ve seen various documentaries about young suspects who were intimidated into confessing to crimes they didn’t do.

  • SueInCa : mine too cl

  • choicelady : Sue – yes, I know, but it still raises my hackles!!!!

  • funksands : KT, I totally understand where you are coming from. I feel the same way. Application of justice should be that clear-cut.

  • SueInCa : brb

  • SueInCa : Again it depends on the circumstances of that confession

  • choicelady : KT – but confession is not always valid. Some weird people confess to things with which they were NOT involved. The rush to close cases makes taking those confessions way too easy.

  • SueInCa : I know I qualified it with my Republican statement lol CL

  • choicelady : AdLib – PRISON MINISTRIES!!!! Well, some are really good, but the Dominionist ones are just HORRIBLE.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, I am saying that those who confess, have removed all doubt as to their guilt or innocence.

  • choicelady : Sue – huge disparities in cons. My friend’s son got to do two college courses IN prison, walked out, got an apartment, job, and car all in two days thanks to friends, and no Black person has that ever happen to him or her.

  • AdLib : And if killing innocents is a crime, isn’t the state guilty of crimes when they execute innocent people…dependi ng on a criminal justice system that is racially prejudiced and favors the wealthy over the poor?

  • SueInCa : Oh unless they are republican then they can set up a prison ministry or be hired by any number of republicans. Republicans are the only ones who paid their debt. Colson, G Gordon Liddy, Abramoff…..Lib by

  • KillgoreTrout : I don’t condone the killing of all people who have taken a life. Almost the opposite. There are many reasons why a person may take the life of another. Crimes of passion, self defense, accidental deaths because of too much force…etc. I am talking about the worst of the worst. People who kill for the thrill of it. People who rape and murder children. Those are the ones I have no objection to killing. It’s like killing a rabid dog or dangerous animal that poses a direct threat to people.

  • SueInCa : The whole thing is a moot point until we truly have rehabilitation in prison and prisoners are accepted back in to society. Until then, the prison population will continue to grow and will return because society will not welcome them back. They always have a monkey on their back

  • choicelady : funk – NO! I’m horrified that man who slaughtered over 70 people for his Dominionist anti-Muslim views will walk out in a few years. HORRIBLE.

  • funksands : Ad, that’s a good question for sure.

  • choicelady : Sue – yeah, I’m NOT at all interested in releasing someone who ‘found’ Jesus on Death Row. Sorry. You get out for ONE reason: the Innocence Project proves you’re not guilty.

  • AdLib : So the question is, it it acceptable collateral damage to execute innocent people in order to execute mass murderers who are already imprisoned?

  • funksands : Norway has a maximum of 21 years in jail. Is that good enough?

  • AdLib : KT – Those are horrible people but there are also people who get the death penalty who may be innocent.

  • choicelady : KT – are Bundy, et al. any different from Manson? From the men who shot my friends over political issues? Bombed my other friend and his wife? Life in prison keeps them off the streets AND should muzzle them better than it does. I am NOT in sympathy with anyone who hollers about Manson’s “right” to harangue his victims’ families or society. Screw that. Sorry – humane treatment, fine. “Civil rights” – wrong!

  • SueInCa : Ok one more thing and then I will shut up. The killer has family too and how does it help to make them suffer as well? Many people do come to a forgiveness of the people who have murdered their own. And like I said no one I know has ever escaped from death row. Bundy, Dahmer were all people, they were sick. And James Dobson befriended Bundy and tried to get him off death row simple because he claimed tofind Jesus, lots of prisoners find him until they get out

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, ws Ted Bundy a “person?” Gary Ridgeway? Jeffery Dahmer, and many others? I see them as being sick, so sick that they are beyond rehabilitation. Just like cancer cells that radiation can not kill, so you cut them out for the good of the body.

  • choicelady : AdLib – yup, those Old Testamentarians are ruthless!

  • AdLib : KT – Actually, I’d say that it is the RW Christians who are most pro death penalty, they believe in God as punishing, vengeful and vindictive and think that the “evil” ones should be destroyed. I think atheists for the most part don’t believe that or in the death penalty.

  • choicelady : Sue – that IS the great leap. Jesus broke with the traditions and brought entirely different values to bear. It’s why they killed him. And today’s conservatives cannot abide his message either!

  • funksands : KT, it certainly wouldn’t hurt my feelings if the death penalty was abolished. The system is so flawed now that perhaps it would be better if it was. I have no confidence in the majority of the legislatures and Governors to handle it appropriately.

  • choicelady : KT – I think you’re not reading my stuff here. We don’t disagree. And the points of the Bible are of an evolving society moving from superstition to justice. There are no “Christian” principles involved in the death penalty so much as pragmatic concerns about the harm it does to society and to the victims.

  • SueInCa : It happens all the time CL

  • SueInCa : But KT Jesus Christ came to make a new covenant, I believe that God was tired of it all.

  • KillgoreTrout : Funk, I most definitely agree with you.

  • choicelady : KT – they mostly don’t confess, KT. One law enforcement guy I dearly love said HE opposed the death penalty because somewhere down the line, every perp wants something after 10 or 20 years. That’s when they get confessions of accomplices, other crimes still unsolved, etc. I think the families of victims deserve that – and he told me it happens ALL the time. They want better food, more TV, something – and the start singing. I am waiting for a friend’s killer to do that – to finger who set the murder up. I want that with every fiber of my being. And he’s in for LIFE so it WILL happen.

  • KillgoreTrout : AD, as I said, I am not a Christian and do not believe as most all Christians are taught. Look at the viciousness and vindictivness of God in the Old Testament. He wiped out entire cities and peoples that didn’t go along with his laws.

  • SueInCa : Sure CL I would like to talk to them.

  • SueInCa : Ok KT what about coerced confessions? Not everyone in that situation is as smart as you or I and could very well be put in a situation to confess to something they did not do. I know to keep quiet and I know the police cannot do a thing about it, their good cop bad cop would not work.

  • AdLib : KT – So are you saying that only those who confess to their murders should get the death penalty?

  • choicelady : Sue – within my circle of advocates, I work with a LOT of people fighting the criminal justice system because it’s more criminal than just. If you’re interested, I can hook you up with some like the very cool Quakers. They ROCK.

  • AdLib : KT – In the scenario you describe, the issue for me is killing someone who is already extracted from society. He can’t harm anyone ever again if he is securely imprisoned for life. So killing him is not a necessity to protect society.

  • KillgoreTrout : No doubt that there have been some innocent people executed. But when a person confesses to these horrible, gruesome murders, I see no good reason to keep them alive, especially at the expense of people who are not murderers.

  • SueInCa : Don’t get me started on penal reform CL I am one who believes there is a serious problem with our justice system for the exact reasons Adlib just stated. There is no justice for all, there is only justice for some and that means the sytem is broken

  • choicelady : KT – I don’t have an intrinsic belief in the goodness of people on death row (or a whole lot of ones walking around may I add) BUT you cannot look at the numbers of the innocent now freed from Death Row and not gulp. Wow – that’s just WRONG. Executing innocent people makes me absolute sick to my stomach.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, that’s OK, it’s what you believe and I have no doubt that belief is sincere. I just don’t share that belief.

  • SueInCa : I cannot Adlib

  • choicelady : AdLib – THAT is the reason we need penal reform BIG TIME.

  • AdLib : CL – We’ve just seen a Caucasian murderer released penalty-free. Zimmerman is among us now. And we’ve seen a black woman convicted of a crime for trying to scare off her abusive husband and not harming a hair. In that kind of judicial system, who can assure that all of the black men convicter and given the death penalty deserve it? The death penalty is a roll of the dice on killing innocent men, especially black men. How can a society live with that on its conscience?

  • funksands : CL, couldn’t agree more. Just because I philosophically think a death penalty is okay doesn’t mean that states are applying appropriate standards in practice. That’s the #1 argument against the death penalty in my opinion. In theory its appropriate, in practice the State is run by humans and they don’t get it right all the time.

  • choicelady : Sue you are among a very large number of prolife prochoice people. THAT is the norm in America. What’s right or wrong for you is not shoved onto others.

  • SueInCa : That is a pretty good description CL

  • choicelady : AdLib – the OT is evidence that ancient society was very much a ‘work in progress’!!! The view I have of it is evolution – from people who stone bratty children to death to a message of universal love and justice. Those who adopt the harsh rules are not Christians but Old Testamentarians with Jesus as their ‘get out of jail free’ card.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, I don’t see how it is not a religious thing.

  • SueInCa : I am still not sure when life actually begins, I believe not until at least 20 weeks but I also know abortion would never be right for me. I don;’t believe in forcing what is right for me on to others, I believe in choice. To me there is no gray area when you take an adult life, you know it is a person

  • KillgoreTrout : Is killing a depraved killer, that preys on the weak in our society thae same as Murder? I don’t think so. I see it as a means to protect society from further harm. Why should I give consdieration to a person who has no consideration for others? I think that answer lies in religious teachings. I. am not religious and I see mass murderes and child rapists and killers as a cancer on the larger spirit of humanity.

  • choicelady : funk – now that’s an interesting standard. But with the Innocence Project releasing over 130 people, I think it’s pretty clear the ‘justice’ system is anything but. And that does include a few federal prisoner later proven utterly innocent. Ugh. THAT to me is a pure horror!

  • AdLib : CL – Look how many “Christians” on the far right are saying Zimmerman was right for killing Trayvon. The 10 Commandments say “Thou Shalt Not Kill” but the Bible has plenty of killing with God’s approval.

  • choicelady : Sue – oh wow – I KNOW!!! It’s the ‘innocent life’ vs. ‘sinner’ thingy with them. Of course you cease to be innocent the second you’re born, but what the heck.

  • funksands : I think the death penalty is acceptable. But it should be a federal standard and very very rare in only the most heinous of situations.

  • SueInCa : CL watch them go ballistic when you talk death penalty and abortion

  • AdLib : KT – Well, it can be proven that innocent lives have been taken via the death penalty as well so the odds of someone on death row escaping versus an innocent man being executed tips towards the innocent man’s situation.

  • SueInCa : No problem, we are really not that far apart

  • KillgoreTrout : Thank you Sue. I agree.

  • choicelady : AdLib – conservative Christians think the OT rules on stoning people to death are fine, the death penalty is perfect justice, and that they can judge others despite Matthew 6. oh, well…

  • SueInCa : I know that KT but I am just not willing to sanction taking a life just because a prisoner might do so. We have to stop the cycle somewhere

  • AdLib : No worries, KT!

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, taking such a chance does not only involve your life and safety.

  • choicelady : KT – it also should be said I have no problem with self defense. REAL self defense. I am not a pacifist. Too much ugly stuff in my life made that clear to me. But I also don’t have guns because, well, I also discovered that I’m not always rational when I think I’m in danger. So…

  • AdLib : KT – Many atheists are opposed to the death penalty and many Christians support it. I don’t think it’s a religious thing.

  • SueInCa : That is what thoughtful debate is all about

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, I respect your views, but I do not share them.

  • SueInCa : I know that was my point. And at the end of the day we can move on and still be friends

  • choicelady : AdLib – I think it’s going to be huge in DC in August. Just HUGE.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, I respect your views on this. I just don’t share them.

  • choicelady : KT – I don’t think anyone SAID all life is sacred. I don’t believe that either!!! I think some people are so depraved they gave up the ‘human’ label. I just have no interest in making society be complicit in doing murder that rectifies NOTHING even for the victims. When it’s over, victim families discover there is no solace at all – especially if there are unanswered questions. At that point all help to the families ENDS. And they are left alone, still bereft, and empty. It’s just useless as a method of justice.

  • SueInCa : And KT that is your right, iI am surely not going to try to persuade you to follow what I believe because I respect you. We just have different beliefs on the subject and that is fine too/

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, none that I can think of off hand. How many murderers have been let go, and have killed again? I think there have been several, at least.

  • AdLib : CL – That’s what I’m hoping, as the 50th anniversary of the original march, in light of the VRA being damaged, Trayvon’s killer free and being held up as a hero by the RW for killing an unarmed teen, the Voter ID laws, on and on, it could really be the engine that drives this movement into top speed.

  • choicelady : Sue – LOL!! BOTH ways probably apply to me!!!

  • KillgoreTrout : Well folks, i just don’t share the Christian ethic that all life is sacred. Who ever said life was sacred in the first place? We did. Enlightened self interest. But when someone chooses to kill, without rhyme or reason, and does it repeatedly? I say just remove them from this world.

  • choicelady : KT – look at that horrid man, one of the few whites executed for killing a Black man, the white supremacist who dragged James Byrd to death in TX. He LOVED being the limelight when he was executed. Solitary would have been far worse for him – all that time, no audience, no final ‘fuck you’ statements. Nothing.

  • SueInCa : That sounds cool cl, you sure have been around, and I mean that in the nicest way

  • SueInCa : I guess KT I would say I am willling to take that chance, but death row is very difficult to escape from, it just does not end in death like now unless it is natural

  • AdLib : CL – Very cool and a real accomplishment to be proud of!

  • choicelady : AdLib – I agree with you. It’s not about the murderer. It’s about our becoming murderers.

  • choicelady : One of the proudest moments was working for the Rhode Island NAACP doing a 30-second public service announcement (when those existed) in 1983. They were having HUGE problems – could not fill even one bus. My ad came out – eight buses filled up and went!!! I was very happy I could do that for them.

  • AdLib : KT – My thought is that if a society is to stand for rights and principles, they can’t be conditional. Either taking the life of another human being is unacceptable or there are always exceptions that can be subjectively made. And IMO, forcing a killer to spend their lives in jail is far more of a punishment than killing them.

  • SueInCa : How many death row inmates have you heard of escaping?

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, there is no guaruntee that a prison won’t escape, or kill other inmates. I’m talking about the worst of the worst. I am not a Christian and have no qualms about the sanctity of life for murderers. That sanctity ends when murders begin.

  • SueInCa : Please do CL

  • choicelady : Sue – there may be. I can put you in touch with NAACP and see if they are doing that.

  • choicelady : ADLib – I think this march – the 50th since Rev. King and the 150th year since Emancipation Proclamation will see massive turnout. MASSIVE. I would love to encourage all WHITE people who care and who can do it to be there. It’s important to make the statement.

  • SueInCa : I wish there was a bus going, I would probably be on the first one

  • AdLib : CL – DO you think the march will be as powerful as it seems it will be, in light of all of this?

  • choicelady : KT – Bundy et al. should really be in solitary. I know people rail against it, but…

  • SueInCa : KT you put them on death row but you do not kill them. They are separated but alive

  • choicelady : Sue – it’s probably $400 plus for the airfare, but look around We do SW, but I bet you could find cheaper.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sweet dreams AB.

  • AdLib : Whoops, you beat me, CL!

  • choicelady : AdLib – I call ’em Fifth Columnists. Same principle. Collaborators. Filth.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, point well taken. Modern technology is reducing those numbers now. Mainly DNA testing. What do you do about the Ted Bundys and Gary Ridgeways of the world?

  • AdLib : The march on Washington is August 28, right?

  • choicelady : AB – the march is Wed. August 28. The rest is up to you. There is a Civil Rights conference on the 27th, but I can’t do that. You can find out more about that by Googling 50th anniversary march on washington. The march itself has no agenda posted yet. Remember non Southerners – in August in DC you gargle the air.

  • SueInCa : Night AB I will be thinking of you tomorrow

  • AdLib : Night AB, have a wonderful weekend!

  • SueInCa : I have a friend in MD I could stay with CL it is the airfare….

  • AlphaBitch : Night all. Sweet dreams to you, too. And KT, keep pouring!

  • choicelady : AB – sweet reading and sweet dreams!

  • AdLib : CL – Emoprogs are useless for anything constructive, just whiny little twerps. They remind me of Nazi collaborators since they de facto are fighting to accomplish the enemy’s goals.

  • SueInCa : I have to disagree KT, there are methods to keep stone cold killers away from the population and the Innocence project has been successful in proving that some are there without being guilty. I watched the Clint Eastwood movie on it and changed my mind real fast

  • AlphaBitch : Dates, CL?

  • choicelady : AB – I will read it now since YOU recommended it! Thanks!

  • choicelady : Sue – I AM going to the 50th anniversary March on Washington. Hubby and I have our reservations already. Taking our organization’s banner and determined to BE THERE. I hope there are millions who will come. BTW – in answer to earlier question, it ain’t cheap. But it’s also surprisingly not that awful – hotels rates are down for that week, cannot explain it.

  • AlphaBitch : OK Troops. Time to turn in. Mr. Aslan’s book beckons. Are you going to read it CL?

  • AlphaBitch : Working hard down here to invigorate and motivate the Hispanic vote to get out and do the work. I’d take them over the emoprogs any day!

  • KillgoreTrout : Absolutely AB. order seconds at your own peril! Or if you have a soft surface around you.

  • choicelady : KT – with the Innocence Project finding 130-plus people on Death Row conclusively innocent, it means there are at least 130 murderers running around scot free.

  • SueInCa : What about the march on Washington DC this year?

  • AlphaBitch : Nope. They’re cheeto eaters too. Too busy patting themselves on the back for being progressive and all that.

  • choicelady : AB – the one group ostensibly on ‘our’ side who won’t do squat are EmoProgs. But they never do, so who cares?

  • AdLib : CL – It’s very encouraging, the only way to fight back this racism is for the people to rise up. Our government is too infiltrated with Repubs who want further bigotry enshrined in law, they just can’t be counted on. Tomorrow is a day of protest for Trayvon and racial inequality in our society and judicial system. Hope it is a big success.

  • KillgoreTrout : Capital punishment is not only a moral issue. It’s also an issue of public safety. Even the safety of other prisoners is at stake with stone cold killers. Convicts have been known to escape and kill again. I sometimes see capital punishment as a cancer ridding action.

  • AlphaBitch : Amen, CL. And I for one will be reminding them.

  • choicelady : AB – NONE of the people the GOP has screwed will forget. Next year is not going to be without stupid shit from the GOP, and they won’t forget THIS year either. Women, people of color, immigrants, working families – all of them will remember who gave benefits, who screwed them over.

  • AlphaBitch : Or a big old HERicane to wipe out the south.

  • SueInCa : Adlib there is a current and I think everyone feels it, we need a catalyst to go out and actually be it. Perhaps Trayvon is that catalyst, I don’t know but talk of his case could lead to broader social issues and the work will begin

  • AlphaBitch : Ad – I honestly think it’s why the R’s acted now on abortion legislation, hoping that women will “forget” by 2014 and be distracted by whatever shiny bobble of fear they dangle before them. But I don’t think it will work this time. Too many women are too upset.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I’m the wrong person to ask because our members are highly energized by these various experiences. I carry about 1.5 million people along, and they are just well and truly fed up with the RW agendas and implication that only white people and MALE white people matter.

  • AdLib : AB – My question is whether we have an energized public to step up now, after TX attacks women, black Americans are killed without it being a crime, students are financially oppressed, etc. or if people are just too apathetic to step up until things get even worse.

  • choicelady : KT – they just read as lethal recipes. Good though!

  • AlphaBitch : KT: Ground, meet face?

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, they are deceptively great tasting. About a half hour or so after having a couple, wow. look out ground.

  • choicelady : AB – got the point. We have to be better than converting society into stone killers, too.

  • AlphaBitch : GREAT ideas CL! LOVE it!

  • choicelady : AdLib – there really is a nationwide discussion and action around race. It’s going on everywhere, and no one is noting it at all. Media go to Black churches only – they don’t hear and read the incredible uprising of white and integrated bodies of people on behalf of Trayvon and the issues. Today United Methodist church posted a story about the verdict – and the photo was of an altar with bread, wine, iced tea, and Skittles. We ARE having this very open conversation AND actions around anti-racism everywhere. MAKE your local media cover it!!!

  • KillgoreTrout : AB, that strangely sounds good.

  • AdLib : CL – So true! I am a very strong opponent of the death penalty but I would never fault a friend or family member of someone who was killed for wanting it for the killer.

  • AlphaBitch : CL: I used to be pro-death penalty until Steve Earle stood on a stage in Nashville, saying you can’t be a Christian and FOR the death penalty, because if you don’t believe in salvation, forgiveness and redemption – what the hell did Jesus die for? And on that topic – just got Zealot today. Will likely check out here early so I can go read a chapter.

  • SueInCa : I hope you are right AB some people still seem so detached, just void of opinions

  • AdLib : AB – Glad justice was served. I know it doesn’t make things better but it does give a sense of closure.

  • AlphaBitch : I think people are catching on, AdLib. SERIOUSLY. Women in Texas. African Americans all over the place. Wait till they can’t get insurance, and Medicaid is cut. Ooooohhh wheeee

  • funksands : be back in a bit

  • choicelady : AB – when one friend was murdered, his widow expressed a desire to have the killer executed. Some of their mutual friends dropped her fast saying she was ‘as bad as the killer’. Oh PLEASE!!!! Family are exempt from political discourse on capital punishement – of COURSE they want the killer dead!!!

  • SueInCa : My heart wants a movement, my gut says Americans are too lazy

  • KillgoreTrout : SYG laws must be changed. Any law that says you don’t have to retreat from a dangerous situation is just plain wrong. Yes, retreat if you can, and if you can, don’t shoot anybody. and if the assailant is retreating, you shouldn’t have the right to shoot him in the back.

  • AdLib : So do you think we will really have a movement to combat the encroachment of racism in our society? Or might this all fade away over the next several months?

  • AlphaBitch : In all honesty, five of us made a pact that whomever was first diagnosed with a fatal disease would actually DO it. No need. Justice WAS served. It just took what seemed half of forever.

  • SueInCa : AB there is a bacon dip that looks like a chopped salad, I will try to post the recipe for you on OT

  • choicelady : KT – sounds YUMMY.

  • AdLib : AB – That’s so terrible, I wouldn’t blame you for wanting to kill him.

  • AlphaBitch : KT – YUM! Now we’re talking. A side of bacon with that, please.

  • choicelady : AB – I get that. I’ve had five friends brutally murdered (all for political reasons) and would LOVE to wrap their intestines around their necks and pull…

  • AlphaBitch : A Clockwork Wall Street, p’rhaps?

  • KillgoreTrout : AB, they are super strong. It’s vodka, Baileys, Frangelica and one other coffee flavoerd liquor, shaken with ice and poured. Whoa! Two will make you walk funny. ;)

  • SueInCa : My idea is more a 9 to 5 situation in reality

  • choicelady : ADLib – it WOULD make a GREAT black comedy. Too many of them are oblivious to the grave harm they do to people. A bit of justice would not be amiss!

  • AlphaBitch : CL: I wanted to kill – actually kill – the man who murdered my friend that I discussed last week. With my own hands. Other than that, I have wanted to kill no one. Perhaps I’ve fantasized beating the crap out of them, but killing? Nope.

  • SueInCa : Where is Kes tonite? I hope she shows up later

  • AdLib : CL – Just tossing it out as a black comedy film plot. Killing is of course wrong in any case and getting rid of CEOs wouldn’t accomplish much, they’d just be replaced.

  • choicelady : glenn – you headed out? Safe journey and good wishes on delivering the bad news. I’m so sorry this is happening to you and to your mother.

  • SueInCa : Personal is for messaging

  • AlphaBitch : glenn – travel safe, lady. Next week.

  • SueInCa : Funk I rarely ever talk personal, I use it for social political reasons

  • choicelady : AdLib – well, we don’t really want to kill them, but some time in jail? Very fine with me.

  • choicelady : glenn – I read about that case. Horrible.

  • SueInCa : I agree AB and I am proud to say I gained friends not lost

  • AdLib : glenn – Thanks for dropping by. Wishing you all the best on your loss and your trip.

  • funksands : I’m glad I’m not on Facebook. All its good for is exposing every detail you don’t like about people you love.

  • SueInCa : there you go Adlib, I have many scenarios where some people are being systematically murdered, it started with the banksters

  • AlphaBitch : Sue: I believe friends are people with whom you share 1) interests and/or 2) values. Best friends (like Kes) are those with whom you share both.

  • choicelady : KT – one case of a white guy in his house telling the 911 dispatcher he was going out to ‘get’ two black teens taking things from his neighbor’s house. His NEIGHBOR. The 911 dispatcher TOLD HIM TO STAY INSIDE, but he grabbed his gun, and yelled jubilantly he was going – and then you hear the shots. Two. Two dead Black kids. And he EFFING GOT OFF ON STAND YOUR GROUND.

  • AdLib : CL – Hey, they all travel for meetings and conventions, they’d only stay safe if they never left the state.

  • SueInCa : Night glenn drive safe

  • SueInCa : Funk there was more unfriending on FB on Sunday than any other day

  • AlphaBitch : Which case, Funk?

  • glenn : Alright folks, you all are on a roll tonight, but I’ve got to go. Take care, and I’ll see you on the Planet next week.

  • funksands : I’ve had some very odd conversations with very dear, rational-thinkin g friends about this case. It’s exposing a lot of nerves.

  • SueInCa : My husband di with Anthony too but he laughed and laughed

  • AlphaBitch : glenn – I heard of that case. Coming up – also in FL. But I had heard he went to his hotel and then sat and ate pizza after shooting the kids. BTW – they were unarmed.

  • AdLib : Sue – How cool! Hooked my daughter on Monty Python and she enjoyed it too (it’s my favorite Python film) but I did have to explain a bit to her.

  • choicelady : AdLib – saw the map, so yeah – lots of fertile territory, but NY is not, I think, one of them so there goes Wall street.

  • KillgoreTrout : Exactly CL, it’s very aggrivating. I was pissed about the Zimmerman ruling, but this one just multiplies my anger.

  • glenn : KT–And the case of the man who shot an unarmed black kid for playing his music too loud is also coming up. That one ought to be “interesting”. The fucking coward shot the kid, then got in his car and went home. Took the police until the next day to arrest him. Then some idiot was defending the shooter because the kid was not “polite” enough to turn his music down when asked! I mean, the nerve of that kid, being in a public place and playing his music too loudly so that an old white fart just had to shoot him!

  • AlphaBitch : KT: Nope, but I think I would like one.

  • AdLib : CL – 30 states or so have SYG laws, that’s a lot of corps and CEOs.

  • SueInCa : Adlib my grandson just saw Life of Brian – he is a new fan

  • AlphaBitch : I’m a space trader.

  • funksands : Ad, easy mistake to make. Just don’t let it happen again.

  • choicelady : AdLib – that works ONLY in places with Stand Your Ground laws. Don’t know if CEOs on Wall Street would come under it. Worth a shot, right. (Pun intended.)

  • KillgoreTrout : AB, ever hear of a Russian Quaalude?

  • SueInCa : KT she has people fighting for her, I think the problem is Angela Cor(whatever the state attorney’s name is) She threw the Martin trial that diondi was a bumbling idiot

  • AlphaBitch : Sue: I often pray I will die 5 minutes before Cheney to watch his face when he tries to get into the pearly gates. These ain’t no Richard Perle gates, sucka!

  • AdLib : How about a black comedy about a gang of anarchists who kill all the corporate CEOs because they feel threatened by them?

  • choicelady : KT – that woman’s case Sue has taken up and most of us have. It is the PROOF that ‘stand your ground’ is for white people only.

  • KillgoreTrout : Not only is the Zimmerman trial decison a travesty, but a woman in FLA was sentenced to 20 years in prison for firing a warning shot when her abusive husband lunged at her. TWENTY FUCKING YEARS, and she hurt nobody. Of course, she was a black woman, so in the eyes of FLA law makers, that’s beside the point.

  • choicelady : AB – keep the carbs low, and the results will be worth it. We will tolerate temporary dementia along the way. You’re with friends.

  • SueInCa : Damn if I had one wish to see someone it would be me and Cheney alone on a street and I dare him to prove I was the one who tripped him

  • AlphaBitch : I’ll drink any kind of Russian. White or black. Although I confess to preferring white.

  • AdLib : Funk – I read the memo from the Liberal Media wrong and became a Mace Traitor for a while. I think I’ve got it right now.

  • AlphaBitch : See what carb deficits produce? Sheesh.

  • glenn : AB–Good one–traitor tot! Is you favorite drink a traitor toddie? A White Russian?

  • choicelady : AB – GREAT name. I just got called that on a blog, and I LOL-ed all over the idiot. Only function of skin? Keeping your guts from falling out.

  • SueInCa : LOL you need to stop right now, my hubby thinks I have gone mad here lauging out loud. That’s Me AB

  • AlphaBitch : Sue! You bad.

  • funksands : No I’m not! Only a DARVO would call me a DARVO Sue.

  • SueInCa : Or you could have asked if he was wearing pants under that dress

  • AlphaBitch : I’m a Traitor Tot.

  • AdLib : Cheers, AB!

  • choicelady : AB – hardy har.

  • SueInCa : You are just a DARVO Funk

  • choicelady : funk – back atcha white boy.

  • AlphaBitch : CL: Picking your nose would surely have won him over.

  • funksands : Race Traitors. All of you. ;-)

  • choicelady : Sue – DARVO – excellent!

  • SueInCa : As a matter of fact we are Funk and will have a day of protest for Trayvon

  • choicelady : Sue – I once looked right into the eyes of the current King of Saudi Arabia. I was in a bus headed to Heathrow, and he was in a Rolls. I was gawking at them, and he looked up and right at me. We locked eyes – and I had no idea what to do. So I did nothing in my inimitable way. But he was creepy!!

  • AdLib : Hey Funk! At least thanks to the RW we realize who’s really to blame for racism against black people…it was them all the time, what a twist!

  • glenn : Sue–thanks. That about sums it up.

  • KillgoreTrout : Yes funk. There is a time for upheaval.

  • AlphaBitch : Hey White Funk!

  • AlphaBitch : AdLib – you’re a Holden Caufield type of prince.

  • SueInCa : “Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender.” DARVO

  • funksands : Good afternoon! Everyone feeling happy with yourself for helping instigate all the race riots? You libs happy????

  • KillgoreTrout : AB, true, but I wanted to be thorough!

  • AdLib : Hey, I’m a prince! Swords for everybody!

  • glenn : Oops–Sue–what is DARVO?

  • AlphaBitch : KT: You could have left off the last two words.

  • choicelady : glenn – it was Sue who knows DARVO – was going to ask,too, but my husband came home, and I had to tell him where his dinner was.

  • KillgoreTrout : The GOPTP, is definitely a group that has very little understanding of psychiatry.

  • SueInCa : That is good too glenn. Am I now supposed to capitalize the G? Saudi Prince Adlib?

  • AdLib : Whoops, Sue, ya beat me to it!

  • glenn : CL–I missed the OT post. What does DARVO stand for?

  • glenn : AB–Thanks

  • AdLib : glenn – The RW is always in attack and denial mode. Sue posted a great comment about the DARVO mentality which they are addicted to.

  • SueInCa : Close KT

  • AlphaBitch : Well put, glenn!

  • SueInCa : Maybe they should rename it after the Saudi Prince, watch those teabillies run for the hills

  • glenn : The Bubble-Bobble Heads at Bullshit Mountain?

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, would DARVO mean disassociated, republican vapid oracle?

  • AlphaBitch : Or Load O’Crap News

  • SueInCa : or Bullshit Mountain?

  • AlphaBitch : Maybe instead of FOX “news”, they should call themselves OSTRICH news? At least it’s more polite than “Head up the arse” news.

  • SueInCa : Oh I believe that too Adlib, Glenn it is called DARVO I posted on it in OT today as a matter of fact

  • choicelady : glenn – people who turn statements around are generally suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder. We should pray for them (snark).

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, yes and two other great hits, all in the same week.

  • choicelady : KT – LOL!!! I would have to agree about Willie’s underwear.

  • AdLib : Sue – It’s more that Fox had to shove in a story about nothing happening yet instead of having to cover Obama’s historic speech. Probably needed time to coordinate the Rove meme they all needed to regurgitate.

  • glenn : Ad–I swear, we live in such an “echo chamber”. If Dems say r/tp’s are “low information voters”, then it’s turned around because Dems “just can’t see” all the harm President Obama has done. Or…as you say, we call them on race, they talk about how we’re racists because we can’t see how superior the white race is to all other races, and if we can’t see that, then we’re just “racist.” Maybe it’s not so much an echo chamber as it is bouncing bubbles of nonsense.

  • AlphaBitch : CL: On his face. Chacha might have more info on other dimples…

  • choicelady : AB – you are a fount of inside info. Dimples?

  • choicelady : KT – I never knew Willie wrote that song!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I’m not sure I want to delve into that sort of thing too deeply!

  • SueInCa : I stayed up all night to watch their wedding and I am not given to fluff at all

  • AlphaBitch : KT: I’m from Texas. My uncle Totsy SOLD Willie and his band many of their instruments (but not that guitar). OF COURSE I knew that! I even had the LP with Willie with greased short hair. He has dimples under the beard…

  • choicelady : AdLib – what FOX says is so useless as part of the conversation that well, we just have to ignore them. Yes, I know they influence white people, but… Idiots just spew.

  • SueInCa : Looks like you got out bid there Adlib, but we will be sure to pass on the royal news when it happens. I am sure you will wait with baited breath

  • choicelady : KT – why not? Where is it written a performer can’t be hygenic? Has he NO concern for the people who tend him. Not like he can’t send someone to buy clean and white undies for him.

  • KillgoreTrout : Did you know that Willie wrote the immortal hit “Crazy,” that made Patsy Cline a huge star?

  • glenn : Sue–I agree–I’m looking forward to the royal birth as well. Can’t help it–they are such a lovely couple, as you say.

  • AlphaBitch : KT: From what Auntie Chacha said, he was not tidy nor whitey. He was the definitive FUNK meister.

  • SueInCa : I just like William and Kate, they are refreshing and seem socially conscious

  • AdLib : CL – It was true! Then at the top of the next hour, their response to their racism being called out was to accuse Obama of reverse racism for calling them on it. Then they just piled on more and more racism.

  • choicelady : Sue – I’m a baby fan, too. Sorry sophisticates – I LOVE the royal family and always have.

  • SueInCa : Well Auntie pretty much proved that KT lol

  • KillgoreTrout : What’s up funk?

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey, Willie can’t be expected to be a great song writer, musician and singer, plus a tidy whitey wearer.

  • choicelady : AB – that is the truth.

  • SueInCa : Ok now Adlib, I am so looking forward to that wee one. I think the two are such a sweet couple

  • choicelady : ADLib – I saw that comment about FOX and just thought it a dig, and did NOT know it was the truth!!! LOL!!

  • AlphaBitch : Love the ones you (can be) with. That’s my motto.

  • SueInCa : I still have my auntie and I love her to pieces

  • choicelady : AB – she IS a loss. What a wonderful person she must have been! I’m so sad for your loss of her.

  • AdLib : I had to check out Fox News this morning after Obama’s speech. They had a bigger story on, the royal baby still hasn’t been born. Now that’s breaking news.

  • glenn : CL–I didn’t see the president’s speech live, but I admire what he said.

  • SueInCa : They actually tried it again in the Boston Bombing

  • choicelady : glenn – safe journey. Come home soon.

  • AlphaBitch : Sue – she’s the sister of my “illegitimate” mother (the one I “adopted”). Spent every Thanksgiving with her for years and years at the ranch. It just won’t be the same. she amused me once telling me about working in a laundry and having to wash Willie Nelson’s “nasty old underwear” and would make such a face when she mimed having to fold it!

  • glenn : Ad, KT, CL–Thank you for your kind words and thoughts.

  • choicelady : Sue – LOL!!! Did not know AC reported from ‘the scene’ sixty miles away!!! That MIGHT change my opinion of him indeed!

  • glenn : AB–Sorry to hear about your “illegitimate auntie”.

  • AdLib : Sorry to hear that too, AB.

  • choicelady : AB – “illegitimate aunties” are the best parts of our lives. I’m sorry she’s gone. I miss my own terribly even after many years gone. You’re in my heart!

  • SueInCa : I have one too

  • AlphaBitch : Thanks so much, Sue. She had a good long life and an easy passage. For that, I am grateful.

  • KillgoreTrout : Best wishes glenn.

  • SueInCa : LOL everyone loves the illegitimate auntie

  • choicelady : glenn – I’m very happy for you! You deserve a home that is just as you want it! Yea!

  • AlphaBitch : Thanks CL. It was my “illegitimate auntie” whom I adored.

  • SueInCa : AB will be thinking of you as well

  • choicelady : funk! You’re here so early!

  • glenn : CL–Painting and floors turned out just the way I wanted. I’m very pleased.

  • choicelady : Oh AB – I’m sorry! We are at that point of life – beginning in our 30s – when those we love keep dying. I’m sorry you have to do that tomorrow.

  • AlphaBitch : Funkie!

  • SueInCa : Will keep you and your family in my thoughts glenn

  • AdLib : glenn – Sorry to hear that. Hope it goes as well as possible.

  • AlphaBitch : glenn – so sorry to hear it. I just got sad news all over this week and have to go to a funeral tomorrow. So I won’t be long here either.

  • KillgoreTrout : AB, it sort of like the Scarsdale Diet. Gotta be careful where you go.

  • choicelady : Oh glenn – I am so sorry this is one of the ‘must do’ things. Godspeed.

  • SueInCa : Adlib I thought it was amazing and there is a lot of positive buzz on FB Thank you KT

  • glenn : Ad–Going to see my 87-year-old mother. She lives outside of Jacksonville (FL) in a nursing home. My youngest sister and I have to give her some sad news, and we wanted to do it together. Brother and other sisters couldn’t make it.

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Sue, loved your article on artistry. Very well done.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I did see the speech though not live. I am OVER THE MOON at this president’s amazing empathy for us all.

  • AlphaBitch : Ad: Yes. It was real. And wonderful. In fact, it was real wonderful.

  • choicelady : glenn – how did all the painting and everything turn out when you got settled back -are you happy with it all? And where are you going tomorrow?

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey CL, Ad and glenn! Good to see the gang’s all here.

  • AdLib : So, did you see Obama’s speech today? It was pretty amazing, a President has never, could never say what he did before. It’s being called historic by many in the media.

  • AlphaBitch : KT: Careful on that internet reason diet. You can lose too much too fast.

  • AlphaBitch : Where are you going, glenn?

  • choicelady : Hey glenn!

  • glenn : AB–Can’t stay long–have a long trip tomorrow.

  • choicelady : ADLib – at this point no. We CAN make a huge stink and hope they grow up and do the job. It’s despicable lack of commitment to give us the resources they MANDATE that are now keeping us from doing our job.

  • KillgoreTrout : AB, things are good here. Still consuming all the reason I can find on the internet. It’s a very gradual process. ;)

  • SueInCa : Hi Glenn, KT

  • SueInCa : And there is no shame in that CL, but don’t try to fool me you are reporting from the scene when I know your are 60 miles away.

  • AdLib : Welcome glenn!

  • choicelady : KT! Como esta? (Can’t do upside down question marks, sorry)

  • AdLib : Hey KT!

  • AlphaBitch : Glenn! wow this is turning out to be quite the party.

  • AlphaBitch : Nada KT. Con usted?

  • glenn : Good evening all.

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey hey Planeteers, que pasa?

  • choicelady : Sue – I don’t watch him often enough to have a sense of things, but he got kidnapped at one point, and was in hiding another, and I think he might be just a tad edgy about stuff.

  • AdLib : CL – Anyway to replace the contractor?

  • AlphaBitch : Who’s the PC? Why vomit? I can vomit like a vulture, if needed CL. Just you say the word. I think “Double Bubble” and up it comes. (erp- excuse me – I’ll be right back)

  • SueInCa : Perhaps but since the Arab Spring I have noticed him running from the tough stories.

  • choicelady : AdLib – it’s gone from bad to worse. It’s way too long to describe, but a bunch of us are about ready to vomit. I suggest traveling to their office and having a collective heave.

  • SueInCa : I agree I wrote to Marissa, we will see if she answers I imagine she is being deluged with mail now. Daily Kos has a blogger following her case

  • AlphaBitch : I thought Cooper was amazing on Katrina. No one better.

  • AdLib : CL – Right, you were telling me about them. What a headache!

  • choicelady : Sue – Cooper does some good stuff. Not always, but sometimes.And this looks as if it’s one.

  • AdLib : Sue – Good to hear, it can only help highlight the different justice systems different races have to deal with.

  • SueInCa : Wouldn’t it be something if he and Al worked together? I cannot deal with Cooper normally.

  • choicelady : ADLib – it’s the PRIVATE CONTRACTOR.

  • AlphaBitch : Ad – I’m fine now that it’s Friday.

  • choicelady : AB – but if you’re quick to leave, you miss all the margaritas!

  • AdLib : CL – The CA side is bad or the Fed side or both?

  • AlphaBitch : Well CL – sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you deal with the nuts.

  • choicelady : Sue – I like Anderson Cooper most of the time, and that’s fab news! Thank you!

  • AdLib : Doing fine, AB,, and you?

  • AlphaBitch : Early to come, quick to leave. that’s my motto.

  • choicelady : AB and AdLib – oh God, don’t ask. The bureaucracy of the health care project is overwhelming us all. I’m a nut job.

  • SueInCa : Hey here I am. Leaving a link for Murph on OT. Anderson Cooper is taking on Marrisa Alexander’s case. «link»

  • AdLib : AB, it is Fryday.

  • AlphaBitch : Ad – how ya doin?

  • AdLib : How are ya, CL!

  • AlphaBitch : Choice! HOw’s it going?

  • choicelady : AB! Did not see you – lovely to have you here.

  • AlphaBitch : Hey Bacon lover!

  • choicelady : Me three! Hi AdLib and Sue!

  • AdLib : Hey AB!

  • AlphaBitch : Hey Sue! Early birds, we two.

  • AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. Hope to see you then!

 

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