• AdLib : Night Khirad. Seems like a good time to bring tonight’s edition of Vox Populi to a close. Thanks Sally and Khirad and all of our fantastic members for making it another enjoyable and enlightening evening. Have a great weekend and we’ll see you next Friday at 7!

  • AdLib : Sally – I don’t know of any legislation that Reid and the Dems in the Senate are trying to push forward. It all seems like a passive defense, waiting out the clock until 2012. Have you heard of anything major they’ve brought to the floor?

  • SallyT : Well, AdLib, that would be a start. Even if we can’t get it passed, we should atleast show we are trying to do something and the Repubs are blocking it again and again.

  • AdLib : Sally, yes, I saw that cutting Pell grants is a big item on the Nihlist Party’s shopping list. They really do want to throw the future of America under the bus of corporate profits. It’s so anti-American, just bewilders me how they get away with wanting to do such things and aren’t seen as the radical enemies of the people that they are.

  • Khirad : Well, talking financials is like a glass of warm milk for me. I’m gonna have to call it a night here. ;-)

  • AdLib : Khirad – And with the bankruptcy laws changed under Bush, it’s pretty hard to get out from under debts now. What would be more populist right now than changing bankruptcy laws back to how they were?

  • SallyT : According to AlterNet: Pell Grants for students have shrunk drastically in relation to the ballooning cost of a four-year college, and Paul Ryan wants to cut them even more, pushing some 1.4 million students into loans, more of which come each year from private lenders with little to no accountability. They say it is the next bubble.

  • AdLib : Sally, they tried to get provisions like that and “cram-downs” passed when the Dems controlled all of Congress but the banks own enough of Congress to kill such bills. Now, with a GOP House, it’s impossible. We did lose a number of bank-owned Dems in 2010, maybe if we could replace the Repubs who beat them with real Progressives, we could get such legislation passed.

  • Khirad : Yup, that’s sorta what I was driving at. I never understood why the people weren’t bailed out. I guess I get the solvency issue, and saving GM, but the whole too big to fail thing really bewildered me. I’m no financial genius, but tie it to regulations, quotas on loans, or restructuring the banks (omg, that would not have gone down)… So, what I see is just a cash handout to them, and businesses not hiring, while students and grads saddled with debt aren’t being hired…. brilliant…

  • SallyT : Well, when they are working on the Bankruptcy Law they can include Home Mortages so the court and force the banks to refinance and banks can lower the rates.

  • AdLib : “Since July 1, 2010, all new federal education loans have been made through the Direct Loan program. The loans are made through the college’s financial aid office with funds provided by the US Department of Education. This includes the Federal Parent PLUS loan in addition to student loans. The terms of the Federal Stafford, PLUS and Consolidation loans are similar to the terms of the federal education loans previously available through the federally-guaran teed student loan programs. However, the interest rate on the Federal Direct PLUS loan is lower (7.9% vs. 8.5%) and the approval rate is higher. “

  • AdLib : Khirad, this goes to my big issue with the way Obama dealt with the economic crisis. No bailouts or taking on the debts of the people, only banks and insurance companies. That was a huge mistake. If Tarp payments were restructured to require debt buyouts from home owner’s mortgages and students’ loans, etc., there would be a much more vibrant economy now and a better home market because many people would still be in their homes.

  • Khirad : Yeah, I remember that. A few other moves, too. Need to sell those and contrast them with what the GOP would do.

  • AdLib : Obama got rid of the gov giving banks money for student loans, by borrowing from the government directly, the cost to students was immediately lowered.

  • Khirad : Ooh, I just figured out how to bring the kids to the polls…

  • Khirad : Where’s the student bailout, AL?

  • Khirad : Actually, that’s not true. Obama has talked about several solutions for students, and he hits campuses. I also like the initiative to take any of the “stigma” away from community colleges. I mean, now you can take university courses from the community college, from home, what does it matter? It’s all about expanding educational opportunities, not about snootiness.

  • SallyT : Khirad, I am with you. I only went to a business college but I worry about my granddaughter who is in her final year of college. She just got accepted to the best college for design and we are excited but scared.

  • AdLib : Just saw an article, in 2009, the average student debt was $24,000. Yeow! And with high paying jobs evaporating and cost of living rising, how do you retire that debt?

  • Khirad : It’s friggin’ ridiculous, Sally. It’s a huge problem not really addressed by politicians. When I hear what my parents spent on their degree, adjusted for inflation, my mouth hits the floor and I get really, really, really angry.

  • AdLib : Though I really dislike Edwards and all that he’s done (I saw him as a phony throughout the campaign) my concern is that once the government decides that anything a politician does that could be seen as helping him politically could be criminal if not declared, no matter how ancillary, who’s going to run for office?

  • SallyT : Edwards? Yes, he needs to explain and answer if he mis- used his election funds.

  • SallyT : AdLib, I read that The cost of a college degree is up some 3,400 percent since 1972.

  • Khirad : I’m undecided on Edwards. Legally I hear it’s kinda extraordinary. Emotionally, I don’t care.

  • AdLib : Night Patsy! Take care!!!

  • AdLib : Good point Sally, the amount of debt grads carry when they leave college is hugely more than just a handful of years before. This concept of keeping Americans in debt from school age until death is a serious concern. There is an element of indentured servitude.

  • PatsyT : Opps gotta go and pick up kids… Nighty Night All …

  • AdLib : On a different topic, what do folks here think about the indictment of John Edwards? Is it warranted or not?

  • SallyT : Yes, and they better work on changing the Bankruptcy Laws to allow those students to get out from under that debt they are saddled with and they can’t get a job for years.

  • AdLib : Yep. Though, as you say, spreading the word amng college students that with a Repub pres, their loans and grants will go away and there won’t be Medicare for them when they get old are some solid arguments.

  • Khirad : That’s what I’m hoping for AL. If anyone can do it, that team can. I just don’t want them to get lazy. They need to start generating their viral material now.

  • AdLib : Khirad – I think you’ll see a real strong social media outreach to the youth vote from the Obama campaign. They did an incredible job on that in 2008 and they know how big of an advantage they have with younger voters. Bet on it!

  • PatsyT : Nighty night Cher….

  • SallyT : Cher, you misread. I didn’t say Dems I said those registering as Independents.

  • AdLib : Sleep well, Cher! Have a wonderful weekend!

  • Khirad : They better, in addition to pounding away at Medicare, not forget to tell students (and their parents) and much more Repubs would gut education funding and loans opportunities. Fer chrissakes, don’t just expect the youth vote again. It’s a very fickle constituency. Or no, that’s not fair. It really just needs to be ASKED to vote. Apart from last cycle it’s usually just written off. Well, we saw what galvanizing the youth can do, and we ARE NOT Republican in large part. Whether they make nontroversies over a rapper or bash gays, etc, they just couldn’t be further away from anyone younger than 40.

  • Chernynkaya : Folks, I’m folding and picking up my chips. See you tomorrow I hope!

  • AdLib : I think the Baggers will have their chains pulled by the Kochs et al if they try to run a 3rd party candidate. They’ll be bought off one way or another, they have the money to get their way.

  • SallyT : AdLib, right now we look like the lesser of evils and we may get votes for that alone. To get more we have to look like we got some balls and we will not try to compromise on everything but take a stand and stick to it.

  • PatsyT : Interesting thought Khirad, but isn’t he the one the Koch bros are betting on?

  • Chernynkaya : AL– OMG if only they woukd do that! I KNOW it’s a winner. They need to listen to real Dems like Pelosi–she so gets it.

  • AdLib : Khirad, actually, Willard “Mitt” Romney’s not a mole, he’s more like another kind of rodent. Have you seen his new campaign ad? «link»

  • Chernynkaya : Sally then those Dems are foolish, IMO. Protecting what we got is imperative now. Not the time for new. HCR anyone? We lost a ton of center Dems and the Left, yet is was a huge accomplishment.

  • Chernynkaya : I think Romney knows he lost the baggers over Mass. HCR and other things. He can;t completely give them the finger, but he has written hem off.

  • AdLib : I would like to see the Democratic Party to run on a specific and publicized platform. Elect us and give us the House back and we will limit filibusters, pass the Dream Act, end taxcuts for the rich, stimulate the economy and add jobs while lowering the deficit through tax code fixes on corporations and the wealthy and put in place a public option that forces insurance companies to compete at lower premiums.

  • SallyT : Right, Cher, it may not get passed but that is not the Dems fault. They have to keep showing that they are trying. Those registering as Indepentants are those thinking we don’t do anything unless it is to protect something that we have already got years ago but we aren’t trying to better that or get going anything new.

  • PatsyT : Wow Cannibals are over taking the T baggers

  • Chernynkaya : AL the Bagger orgs have already declared they will run a 3rd Party candidate instead of Willard. They hate him He knows he has no support form them he;s going for the Indies–smart.

  • Khirad : AL, you ever wonder if Romney is really a mole?

  • Chernynkaya : Sally, every jobs bill the Dems have put up was defeated. Then union bosses know that, but yes another symbolic vote should be scheduled. Same with Hispanics–they need to keep trying but the Dream Act was just defeated.

  • AdLib : Cher – But being reasonable is a slap in the face to Baggers. They will retaliate at the slightest sign of reason or logic. Watch how they respond to this, Romney will be hammered.

  • AdLib : The Baggers are going to despise Romney by the end of the primaries. If he comes out and says he disagrees that the Earth is flat, Palin will really go for his throat.

  • Chernynkaya : AL–good for Romney actually. He knows he can’t just win the Neanderthal vote.

  • PatsyT : Oh poor Mitty he has a problem with letting the truth slip

  • SallyT : Cher, I think they will support us again but we need to show them with some action. Sure they might not get anything pass the Republ but we need to show that we are at least trying and introducing stuff that they can relate too. SS and Medicare, yes, they can relate to that. Debt, no, jobs!

  • AdLib : A bit OT but just saw this at the “other” place: “Mitt Romney On Climate Change: ‘The World Is Getting Warmer… Humans Have Contributed’ ” Uh oh…is this guy going to be creamed throughout the primary or what?

  • AdLib : PATSY! Hey there!

  • AdLib : Sally, You mean Trumka? Here too, I feel it’s more of an empty threat to rattle the cage, the unions know how disastrous it would be for them if Repubs take over the WH and Senate.

  • PatsyT : I resemble that remark

  • Chernynkaya : Well, hey–it’s the Patster!

  • PatsyT : Hey guys, Nice to see you all

  • Chernynkaya : That’s a relief,Sally.

  • SallyT : I saw the AFLCO guy on one of the shows just a few days ago and he said he wasn’t pulling all support but would focus more on local election and not national unless they see more action from there.

  • AdLib : Hey Khirad!

  • AdLib : SAlly – Dems are typically skittish about everything, they keep dipping their toes in the water until their triple-sure it’s not too cold. We, the people, have to lead on this. We need to organize and energize and the reticent Dems will get behind us. Repubs have it easy, they’re all about following the blindly confident leader off a cliff if necessary. Dems are more about collective thought, we need to share and promote purpose to bring our far more diverse party together. As they say, it can be like herding cats. With Repubs, it’s more like blindly following a Judas Goat into the slaughterhouse.

  • Khirad : How can I see the Dem Party of my parents if I wasn’t alive? I see the GOP, and that scares the shit out of me. Ergo, Democrat. That’s enough.

  • SallyT : They are registering as Independents because they don’t see the Democratic Party of their Parents. We aren’t that. We need to be again. Our politican need money from big business and have neglected the people that work there. And, they haven’t worked to keep those jobs here. We need to do more and focus on our base.

  • Chernynkaya : No help for you from me, Khirad!

  • Chernynkaya : Take care Chris!

  • Khirad : Speaking of, I was just trying to figure out how to post a hashtag (#PalinHistory) on my FB page. And wouldn’t you know it, at 31, I’m a confused old timer. Couldn’t figure it out.

  • Chernynkaya : Sally, my understanding is that they won’t give to the DSCC or the DNC. Is that incorrect?

  • ChrisR266 : Golden slumbers to you all, enjoy your weekend. See you next week.

  • SallyT : Cher, labor is pissed but they didn’t say all Dems but those not showing support for them. More Dems need to show up and speak up because they have the money and the voice.

  • KQuark : OK I’m really leaving I just had to set up my home pages with FB.

  • Chernynkaya : Sally–not so sure we still have the numbers. This country moved right and many more are registered as Indies now. But I do hear you.

  • AdLib : Sally, I think there is indeed a real coming together of real people all across America who’ve had enough of the oppression of the GOP and wealthy. It seems like an authentic grass roots uprising is happening all across the country, in WI, OH, MI, FL and on and on. I think 2012 could be the fruition of this and put to shame the bogus populists like the the Baggers whose power is hugely disproportionate for their numbers. They will be dwarfed at the polls, I think and the country will be nudged a bit back in the right direction.

  • Chernynkaya : Labor is saying they won;t give $ to the Dems. They are pissed about Card Check I guess but they are wrong to withold support!

  • SallyT : We are not the weak party. We use to be the loud party. We need to be again. We may not have the money but we have the people and our people are the ones feeling the pain and the one the Repub wish to inflict more on.

  • ChrisR266 : Sally: WI will lead the charge, I agree. Those folks are angrier that I remember, even when Tommy Thompson first became Governor and pulled some wild-ass stuff. And, it is the firefighters in Ohio leading the way now on the SB 5 referendum petition. It will be on the ballot in November.

  • Chernynkaya : I have to join FB first KQ!

  • Chernynkaya : Great to see you here, KQ. Sleep well.

  • AdLib : KQ – Hope you friend PlanetPOV!

  • AdLib : Night KQ, so glad to have you on Vox tonight! Sleep well!

  • SallyT : AdLib, he needs to. You only have to look at Wisc to see how fast and how many will react to their cause. And, the young stands up with them. Come on, it was us Dems that protested the Vietnam War and we pushed for equal rights for Africa Americans and Women. Hell, we got abortion legalized!

  • AdLib : KQ – Exactly. Obama’s point is that everything he does or says is coming from the man who can sign or veto any and all legislation. So Wall Street, much as they may despise him for many things, hang on every word he says. Pelosi, Boehner, Reid, Cantor, whatever they say is just talk. What the president says is an indicator of the way things will be.

  • KQuark : Don’t forget to friend me Cher. ;-) I feel so alone.

  • Chernynkaya : KQ–it’s sure not what it was–especially for this dissed Prez.But I remember that OBL announcement. He just said, basically, “I have an announcement” and the world stood still for a minute. He can;t use that all the time, but he still has the power.

  • ChrisR266 : A pleasure, KQ. Golden slumbers to you.

  • KQuark : OK this old bear needs to call it a night.

  • KQuark : :lol: I wish

  • ChrisR266 : I’m watching House Hunters International–a ny of you folks have a second home in Fiji?”

  • Chernynkaya : AL– Yes there is a balancing act on the debt ceiling, but there are plenty of other truths to tell that the public can hear–his approval ratings are high.

  • AdLib : Sally – Obama has been doing better at reaching out to the Unions, OFA helped organize protests in WI against Walker and there seems to be a lot more recognition of the unions. He could and should be doing more but he is doing better I think.

  • SallyT : Believe me, even the old will listen to Labor. They haven’t forgotten they were once with them.

  • ChrisR266 : Bush always looked scared. That was the most unsettling thing about his Presidency.

  • Chernynkaya : Sally –great point!

  • KQuark : I mean think about that dark day in 2008 when Bush looked all frightened about the financial crisis. I think that made things worse even though the words he used to explain it were not that bad.

  • AdLib : Really, Obama could be doing the GOP’s work for them by coming out fiercely and using the bully pulpit to rail against the threat they represent to America and the world. I actually agree with this strategy, the less he reacts like he sees this as a severe threat, the less negative impact it has on our economy. Yes, it is having a negative effect but I think it is far less than what it would be if the President came out publicly expressing concern.

  • Chernynkaya : KQ– I actually don’t think the ME speech was wasted in the end. For a change, the media shot down the false memes. Even Netanyahu capitulated, and yesterday, there was a great debunking that American and Israeli Jews were angry at Obama. The J community shot back that they support him, and pudnuts covered it.

  • KQuark : I hate to get Faux News on it ADL but you are right about the debt ceiling. Obama cannot sweat on it or look too concerned.

  • ChrisR266 : KQ: now it is “the squeaky wild-ass wheel gets the grease.” The wheel doesn’t even have to work well anymore, as long as it squeaks like we haven’t heard before.

  • SallyT : What the Democrats and Obama need to focus on is the Labor movement. They have numbers in voice and they are the base of our party. We have neglected them.

  • AdLib : Cher – I read about the discussion Obama had with the Dems who visited the WH. He is concerned that as President, when he shows concern at the threat of the debt ceiling not being raised, the stock market goes down. When Cantor says something, it’s just Cantor saying something. I think he is trying not to rattle the markets by showing concern publicly and just floating the message that he’s confident this will all be resolved this month.

  • KQuark : See I think the bully pulpit in this age is an illusion.

  • KQuark : I mean Cher look how many times during the HCR debate Obama and the Dems spoke and still the media did not listen to the Dems because their message could not be put on a bumper sticker.

  • Chernynkaya : Obama has a really hard time getting heard. But he still has a bully pulpit and the network news has to cover him. I’d love him to give a talk titled, The Plain Truth. And use it to tell it–about health care, the economy, and what the other side wants. i expect after his reelection, he might just do that.

  • KQuark : Cher case in point. Obama’s speech on the Middle East was totally drowned out by the MSM where they focused on four letters “1967” and the drama from Netanyahu and the GOP afterwards.

  • AdLib : Cher – You are so right about never assuming something speaks for itself. The reason the Bagger town hall BS took root is Obama assumed the absurdity of the government wanting to kill granny was so obviously ridiculous, no one would believe it. By the time he realized people were believing it, it was too late and HCR was nearly killed. Never underestimate the gullibility of the public.

  • Chernynkaya : Oh– I see what you mean now , AL. Yes–negotiating !

  • Chernynkaya : It is incredibly tough, KQ. But possible. He can go on talk shows, he can give speeches and once the election gets closer he will. He needs to do more like that OBL announcement. He need to demand air time, by making news.

  • KQuark : You are right the Ryan fiasco was amplified by the MSM for once. But you can’t get the MSM to deliver every message. If not for people shouting back at the GOP in TH Ryan could have gone under the radar.

  • ChrisR266 : Exactly, KQ. The damned market cares only about making money. It is amoral and aethical. It is fundamentally at odds with any notion of functional society/communit y. The GOP cannot and will not admit to this fundamental flaw; instead, they bow to it (or bend over, pick you favorite).

  • AdLib : Cher – I think that when the negotiations over the debt deal become more public, the cutting of waste in Medicare will be a main theme of Obama’s and Dems. As for Medicar for all, this is how smart people negotiate. The other side reaches for something much more extreme than is acceptable, you counter with asking for far more than you’re seeking. That way, you settle on something reasonable. Consider this, even though it would never pass, if the Dems initial position was Medicare For All and cutting waste and the Repubs were Kill medicare and slash benefits for 99% of Americans…whic h party will be thought of best at the polls in 2012?

  • KQuark : Cher how do Dems explain anything in this media environment. I alway here that but there is no solution as I can see it.

  • Chernynkaya : KQ I think that this time the GOP medicare fiasco was obvious. But I think we should NEVER, ever say again that anything “speaks for itself.” There is no overestimating the ignorance of the public. After 2010 I never will.

  • KQuark : And if you look Chris the one thing in the ACA the Repugs are attacking know is the fee-for-service problem which is one of the roots of the cost problem in Medicare. But Repugs simply don’t want to fix Medicare they want to make all healthcare CouponCare which would give the insurance companies and providers the biggest profits.

  • Chernynkaya : AL that’s no gonna happen. But they should at least talk honestly and tell people about the real waste in Medicare. California is doing that–so are the Feds, but they are not explaining. CA will no longer pay hospitals for mistakes. People can understand that.

  • KQuark : If there is anything I realized about Obama is he does not back losing causes. I really think it has to do with how many things he has on his plate.

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib: Reich is correct, and I hate to admit that because I don’t even like that guy. What things are increasingly coming down to is a fundamental flaw with free market capitalism that–until we face it–will always keep us and all politicians from fixing the real problems of rising health care costs.

  • KQuark : See in Obama’s case I just think it’s I put Medicare cuts in the ACA and I’ll move on to the next thing. I mean the overreach by Repugs was so obvious it speaks for itself on Medicare.

  • AdLib : What Obama and the Dems should be pushing back on with regards to Medicare cuts is…Medicare for all!!! It could help finance Medicare and greatly reduce the huge expense of the uninsured and the billions taken out of the economy due to ridiculously expensive premiums.

  • Chernynkaya : KQ– I agree. The Left is really dense.

  • Chernynkaya : Honestly, if the Reeps weren’t so baaad, the dems should be sued for malpractice. If the Reeps were actually smart we’d be toast.

  • ChrisR266 : Sally: {{ clink! }}

  • KQuark : Actually the baggers knew right away and most progressives still think it was a loss if you ask me.

  • SallyT : Okay, I will have another one and relax even more!

  • AdLib : KQ – SO true! I mean, let’s consider the basic assumption that Medicare needs to be cut. The one thing Reich said in an interview that I did agree with is that Medicare isn’t an issue, the rising costs of health care are, for Medicare and all of us. Why isn’t this basic BS being refuted by Obama and the Dems in Congress? WHy do they keep letting the Repubs set the terms of the debate???

  • Chernynkaya : All solved, Sally!

  • ChrisR266 : Everything’s fixed, Sally. Have a drink and relax, LOL.

  • KQuark : we can’t without you sally.

  • Chernynkaya : Yes KQ the cuts were minimal. But eventually, the pudnuts of the Right caught on.

  • KQuark : Tell me about it Chris. :roll:

  • SallyT : Gee, I got called away. Have you guys solved our problems yet?

  • Chernynkaya : AL– it was SO satisfying to hear him say it.

  • ChrisR266 : Is anyone else getting tired of the politicians turning inappropriate words into verbs? Demagoguing? Seriously? Sheesh.

  • KQuark : Exactly Cher didn’t the CBO say the cuts ended up being something like $3MMM from last years budget

  • KQuark : ADL I just don’t see where even in the progressive punditry that anyone ever challenges basic assumptions anymore.

  • Chernynkaya : Chris is was a WIN!

  • AdLib : Cher – I missed that quote but he said just what I was waiting for Dems to say. For two whole years, the Repubs demogagued Obama and the Dems on the Stimulus, HCR and Obama being a foreign enemy of America. Now, when they get hammered justifiably, they whine “Stop it! You’re mean!!!” Fuck them and the Baggers they rode in on.

  • Chernynkaya : AL– all that you say about the Planet is true, but I still honestly believe we are plain smarter! Really. They are not all cynical, but they are definitely conformists–mos tly.

  • KQuark : Yup ADL the pundit media is all aggregation and agglomeration these days.

  • KQuark : Cher allot of that was because of the “progressive” media that could not discern a victory versus a loss.

  • ChrisR266 : Cher: I did, and it was a slam dunk retort.

  • AdLib : Cher – I think The Planet folks are smarter then pundits BECAUSE they’re not pundits and they don’t operate the way pundits do. Pundits surf around seeking out the trendiest opinions or those that make them feel cleverer or more daring than other pundits. We have no agenda like that, we seek what feels true and I think we’re ahead of the curve and see right through the BS memes much sooner because of that.

  • Chernynkaya : Howdy, K!

  • KQuark : I guess I just have not seen enough sanity in this bunch of baggers to think they will listen to Wall Street.

  • Chernynkaya : I see your point AL. I was just thinking that after Obama bamboozled the Goopers last time, he got little credit. He always seems to get too little credit. But I see him changing. Did you see his quote today? He told Ryan–who had just complained about demagoguery: “I am the grandma killing, socialist, not born here President.” Pretty cool, huh?

  • ChrisR266 : Indeed, KQ.

  • KQuark : We’ll see if he’s in the best position Aug 3rd.

  • ChrisR266 : Whether the President is scary smart or in the midst of a celestial alignment, he is in the best of all possible positions right now.

  • KQuark : Democrats always have to fight that woeful urge to govern. That’s always the problem with this new GOP.

  • AdLib : KQ – It sure is a lot easier to win by saying no than having to pass something. If Obama just says no to tax cuts, his no wins out. And, those Progs who were upset by his 2 year extension of them will be pleased.

  • ChrisR266 : Evening, K.

  • KQuark : There’s one K. Heya Khirad.

  • Khirad : Boo.

  • KQuark : I always wonder who the guests are. hmmmmm.

  • AdLib : Cher – Yep, the BS memes that the MSM creates for drama and ratings over this is part of the problem. However, if they are framing this as a showdown and Obama knows Boehner and the Repubs are bluffing, which he does, if he wins the showdown as he should, he’ll come out looking even stronger as a leader. I think that this BS scenario could help Obama and continue to separate his support for re-election from the jobs numbers and economic issues.

  • KQuark : C’mon KT I cya lurking.

  • Chernynkaya : That’s what I thought, AL–about the Kochs, but was’nt sure. I can tell you–I follow all the smartest pudnuts on Twitter and I want to tell you–we are smarter!!

  • KQuark : Exactly Chris. Beyond slashing the budget and drying to repeal the ACA baggers and the rich had nothing in common. And really the rich don’t mind the debt as long as it goes to the industrial complexes.

  • AdLib : Cher – The Kochs are backers of Freedomworks. They NEED the debt ceiling raised but they have to conduct the charade, to keep the clueless Baggers under their thumb, that they will stand up against the raising of it. With one hand, they signal to the Baggers, “We won’t let this happen!” while with the other hand, they shake hands with Repubs in Congress on raising the debt ceiling no matter what, if their blackmail does or doesn’t work.

  • KQuark : Obama has one option now he did not have when it was all Dems. Remember the Dems wanted progress back then. If Obama just holds the status quo including letting the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy expire it’s an option he did not have before.

  • Chernynkaya : AL– totally agree. And I know they are smart enough to get it. What’s unfortunate is that the pudnuts need blather for the next few months. “Will O cave? Will he blink?” See, those questions are just filler, but the very questions undermine the President and he needs to get in front of them now.

  • ChrisR266 : KQ: I think you are correct about the TPers. Rich they are not. I think the monied backers might have become too comfy thinking that they could manipulate and remain in charge of their own destiny. That is not going to happen.

  • AdLib : Cher – Agreed on Medicare, he won’t fold on that. But I also think he can’t fold on the tax cuts for the wealthy. He went back on his word once and swore never again, he simply can’t run on, “But they were threatening me and all of America, I had to give them their tax cuts!” What he and the Dems should do is portray them as the terrorists they are as the clock ticks down, spread that meme, that they are willing to blow up America’s economy if they can’t steal from the poor to give to the rich.

  • KQuark : See I don’t think there are real rich baggers. The rich created them but don’t believe what they do.

  • ChrisR266 : KQ: And the baggers already are working to make them pay. Even the faithful in Boehner’s district are going rogue. 2012 may be a kind of ugly we’ve never seen before.

  • Chernynkaya : Bamajitsu! I love that.

  • Chernynkaya : My question is still about the backers of the baggers: What do those Americans for Prosperity types want? What do the backers of the TP want now? Not only Wall street are they? I mean the rich ideologues. Anyone know?

  • KQuark : I wonder what the Bamajitsu move is here like he did with the budget bill.

  • KQuark : I just don’t know since they did it to the baggers already.

  • AdLib : Chris – I agree. They have painted themselves into a corner by selling their soul to the Teabaggers but having their fingers crossed, really loyal to Wall Street. For the election, Baggers and Wall Street were on the same side but now that the GOP has power in the House, these two camps are in total conflict. Baggers have the votes, Wall Street has the campaign cash and they each want opposing things. What’s a GOP to do but BS both and promise each everything but ultimately, money talks and baggers walk.

  • Chernynkaya : Hey- I’m typing Gaelic now!

  • KQuark : Right Cher. Obama already cut Medicare with the ACA and if the Repugs want to play everything including tax increases will need to be on the table.

  • ChrisR266 : Cher: I agree with you about Obama and Medicare. I think he has dug in, as you suggest. Very smart indeed.

  • Chernynkaya : Nigth funk!

  • KQuark : TC Funky

  • Chernynkaya : Obama will never cut Medacare–I am certain of that. But there are other issues–like the Bush tax cuts and he said recently he won’t let them stand. So i think he has to stand pat. Unless he learns something we don;t know about the Reeps. but I can’t imagine what. He might hear from all those Wall St peeps in his administration– the one the Left freaked out about–that WS is not gonna pressure the Reeps–that would be the only reason to fold I guess. And now doesn’t it seem smart to have kept those people close to him?

  • KQuark : Like you ADL the thing I don’t get most is that it’s the full faith and credit in the US we are talking about here and not abstracts. That’s why it’s so frustrating this building narrative on the right and left that it will be OK.

  • ChrisR266 : Ad: indeed. Either way, the death knell of the GOP.

  • AdLib : Night Funk, have a great weekend!

  • AdLib : Chris – As with the budget, Boehner and the GOP regulars will simply turn to the Dems in the House to help pass the raising of the budget ceiling.

  • ChrisR266 : Pleasant and restful slumber, Funk. Enjoy the weekend.

  • funksands : Goodnight everyone. First nice weekend of the year here. You all enjoy yours.

  • AdLib : The Kochs would lose billions if the debt ceiling isn’t raised so it’s not hard to figure out their position. As with the rest of these weasels, they are supporting the bluff and hoping it gets them what they want but when it starts getting too close to that time, they will kick the GOP in the butts to raise the ceiling. Not a doubt in my mind.

  • ChrisR266 : I think the GOPers have more to fear from all those TP freshmen and women in the House who just aren’t going to line up when zero hour on the debt ceiling hits and the vote has to go. This was the worst gamble the party made, and it was the most risky, I think.

  • KQuark : Like usual though it’s ultimately up to the Senate holding too.

  • AdLib : Cher – I think that if Obama loses this game of poker, he will lose all of his chips. If he KNOWS this is a bluff, he has to play it tough and I think he will. If he panics and folds, he will be agreeing to cutting Medicare and oppressing the poor as Ryan and the GOP wants and he will lose massive amounts of support. There is only one way to play your cards when you know your opponent is bluffing and being a pretty good strategist, I think Obama will stand tough.

  • Chernynkaya : funk that’s true, but it has to be done way before that could happen. And I agree with AL that the bankers will not allow their Party to default. anyone know where the Kochs stand on this issue?

  • KQuark : The Republicans are overplaying their hands here again. There is going to be another budget debate in the fall so it’s even beyond them to hold the debt ceiling hostage for too long. The biggest problem I see unlike the budget the drop dead date for default is fuzzy. So the damage can be done without really defaulting.

  • ChrisR266 : In the end, I just don’t think any of these stubborn GOPers have the balls to hold fast. Their banker backers will yank their chains hard enough to cause pain. They have already proved they don’t play a good game of chicken.

  • KQuark : That’s what they are really holding the country hostage for funk.

  • AdLib : Thanks for the info, Sally. I think that Wall Street knows all of this and wants the GOP to push their ultimatum only to a point then raise the debt ceiling. What has been talked about are incremental raises, just as happened with the budget, which lets the Repubs keep Wall Street happy but keeping Dems and America under their blackmail constantly. Obama should refuse anything other than a full annual raise.

  • funksands : Cher, the only sure fire way to raise the debt ceiling is to let a Republican win the White House.

  • Chernynkaya : AD- This is not the same as OBL, I don;t think because really the consequences are far greater. One could see Obama thinking that he can’t allow the destruction of the US. It all boils down to if he believes the terrorists will pull the trigger. We here don’t. But maybe he does. Maybe he will figure the consequences are too dire. And then he might really lose the election. Because the economy will double dip with all the spending cuts. but he will have saved the world from his perspective.

  • KQuark : Sally your explanation sounds like the right mix for double digit inflation to me, No?

  • ChrisR266 : Funk: Interesting question you pose to Sally.

  • funksands : Sally, it seems like the rest of world is deeply afraid that we are NOT more afraid. Don’t you think?

  • AdLib : Hey Sally!

  • AdLib : KQ – My bet is the GOP will pass the debt ceiling even if there were no cuts, they HAVE to or their owners, Wall Street and corps, will lose billions including money that would go to their campaigns. Just as Obama did with the budget, he will likely use a smoke and mirrors approach to allow them to brag about cuts that really aren’t so severe.

  • SallyT : I think the point is, this isn’t a US problem only.

  • KQuark : Cher I guess that’s all that would do it.

  • KQuark : wow great info sally

  • funksands : KQ, you have hit upon the issue that I’m concerned about. Glass Steagall had one sentence in the whole bill that was used to break down the wall between investment banking and regular banking.

  • Chernynkaya : KQ you have Wall St tell them that they will not contribute to their campaigns unless they sign.

  • SallyT : If they get what they wish for, the party could be over for the whole economy. The Chinese are dumping U.S. Treasuries, and the Fed is backing off from its “quantitative easing” program, in which it has been buying federal securities with money simply created on its books. When the Fed buys Treasuries, the government gets the money nearly interest-free, since the Fed rebates its profits to the government after deducting its costs. When the Chinese and the Fed quit buying Treasuries, interest rates are liable to shoot up; and with a frozen debt ceiling, the government would have to default, since any interest increase on a $14 trillion debt would be a major expenditure. Today the Treasury is paying a very low .25% on securities of 9 months or less, and interest on the whole debt is about 3% (a total of $414 billion on a debt of $14 trillion in 2010). Greece is paying 4.5% on its debt, and Venezuela is paying 18% — six times the 3% we’re paying on ours. Interest at 18% would add $2 trillion to our tax bill. That would mean paying three times what we’re paying now in personal income taxes (projected to be a total of $956 billion in 2011), just to cover the interest.

  • AdLib : Cher – Obama showed a lot of guts in his decision on sending in the SEAL team for Bin Laden. He took that calculated risk, this should be a cakewalk for him compared to that. And the irony is, the GOP is acting like a terrorist, holding a gun to the head of the nation’s economy and threatening to shoot if they don’t get $4 trillion dollars. This is how the situation should be framed.

  • KQuark : But the thing is how do you get the GOP crazy house to pass the debt ceiling without something crazy in it?

  • Chernynkaya : About patriotism–yes- -it has no meaning any more. We are decidedly in the midst of a civil cold war. I know I am.

  • funksands : Cher it’s like you and I talked about before. The key is to view this as a fight to the death. It is.

  • funksands : Even W. I hated that dumbfuck, but I didn’t ever want him to fail. If he does, baaaaad things happen.

  • Chernynkaya : AL–completely agree! The huge question will be if Obama stand his ground. This is another case where we won’t know until it’s done, one way or the other. And I can’t see any reason he should cave. Not one. Even if the debt ceiling isn’t raised. This is poker of the fate of the world–no hyperbole there.

  • KQuark : We are seriously in a cold civil war with ourselves.

  • AdLib : Cher – The concept of Patriotism has been hijacked into a political weapon, the Repubs now claim (as Palin did in 2008) that only those who are with them are Patriotic. It has no constructive meaning anymore, it is used to divide, not unite, as it always had been before.

  • funksands : KQ, I’m with you. It’s a bit surreal.

  • KQuark : Cher it’s amazing the difference in this country since I grew up. I just don’t remember people wanting the president to fail and the country to do bad just because their party was in power.

  • ChrisR266 : So, are we discussing the debt ceiling mess?

  • AdLib : Here’s the game as I see it. The Repubs know the Baggers are pissed off at them for the budget deal so they pass the Ryan budget and threaten not to raise the debt ceiling if their ultimatum on savage cuts to 99% of Americans aren’t agreed to. Meanwhile, they are wholly financed by Wall Street who knows the economy would crash if the US defaulted. Wall Street and corps want the GOP’s blackmail to succeed, less money going to 99% of Americans means more in their pockets. So, there is an understanding between them. The debt ceiling will of course be raised but the GOP will pretend they’re willing to oppose it to get the cuts and privatization of Medicare Wall Street is drooling over. When the day comes though, they all know they’ll vote to raise the debt ceiling even if they don’t get what they want. This is a phony threat and Obama and the Dems shouldn’t buy into it for a moment.

  • Chernynkaya : KQ– i know we are. The debt was due last month.

  • funksands : Ouch! My sympathies Chris.

  • ChrisR266 : Funk: yeah, me too. Taught my last class of the academic year today. I have two months to get ready for a switch to semesters. No summer off for me.

  • Chernynkaya : I was watching TCM movie earlier and they had those shorts between feature–the ones from the 40’s about America. Boy, is this country a different one than then. The patriotism was palpable. And this was after the war.

  • funksands : Burnt out, overworked. Fabulous. :-)

  • KQuark : People don’t even know we are really in default now without Geithner cooking the books.

  • ChrisR266 : Hey Funk, how are y’all?

  • funksands : Hi Chris, long time.

  • ChrisR266 : Thanks, Cher, it was so bad I just had to type it.

  • Chernynkaya : Chris–OUCH!

  • ChrisR266 : I tried buying some hot dogs today, all I could find were Franks and Weiners… WTF?

  • Chernynkaya : Yes, AL–I understand. I don’t blame the public on this one issue because it’s not a sound bite. But I blame our leaders who can’t explain it.

  • KQuark : Hear! Hear! Cher.

  • KQuark : Yeah ADL all anyone cares about is Weiner’s Weiner.

  • Chernynkaya : In all seriousness, calling for default is treasonous. Where’s the outrage? Maybe it’s not there because the people in the know realize that this is kabuki.

  • ChrisR266 : Evening, Ad.

  • AdLib : Hi Chris!

  • AdLib : Cher – You can’t blame the general public right now for being uninformed about what it means not to raise the debt ceiling. I mean, all the MSM has presented is the Repub BS that we should just stop raising it and going deeper in debt. Americans respond by saying, “Yeah, let’s stop deficit spending! Put a limit on our charge card!” What they want is out of control spending to stop, what they don’t understand is that you can’t turn a huge cruise ship around in a minute. It takes time. And in the meantime, Dems and the MSM have not communicated in much depth what will actually happen if the debt ceiling is raised and how it is impossible to maintain our economy without raising it.

  • ChrisR266 : Hi Cher and KQ. Hope everyone is well.

  • Chernynkaya : Hey Chris!

  • Chernynkaya : KQ–It kinda tickles me in a good way! (Google, ie. :lol:

  • KQuark : hiya Chris

  • funksands : 70% of our debt is held by the citizens of this nation. By pushing default, the GOP is giving America the finger.

  • ChrisR266 : Good evening, all.

  • Chernynkaya : So, the thing is, the forces that understand–and that includes Wall st, need to get some good PR out there about the consequences of default. educate the public–god knows they have done that before–for the wrong reasons.

  • KQuark : Google is crawling. I feel dirty.

  • KQuark : I mean how can a country where 41% of it’s population does not know who the VP is prosper.

  • KQuark : Alas et tu cher.

  • Chernynkaya : Night caru.

  • AdLib : Night Caru! Hope you’ll be back another Friday night for VP!

  • KQuark : GN Caru

  • Chernynkaya : I saw that too, funk. But I think it’s only an important matter to9 the far right.

  • KQuark : We are on the exact same word on the page ADL

  • funksands : AL, exactly.

  • Caru : Goodnight, everybody.

  • AdLib : KQ – If the US said in essence, “YOu can’t trust the dollar, we’re willing to devalue it when we feel like it”, the dollar will lose permanent value if dropped as the international currency. CHina has been fighting for the Yuan to replace the dollar as the international currency and this would give them a huge opening to press ahead. The permanent damage that would come from that is beyond what many consider when discussing the acceptability of defaulting.

  • Chernynkaya : KQ– I have lost a lot of faith in the American public. I know that people are starting to wake up–and it’s encouraging. But a lot of people just have no clue. And that includes Dem voters too–about the debt ceiling anyway.

  • KQuark : Exactly the debt ceiling should be a no brainer and the damage the GOP is doing by holding it hostage now could is at the very least making any recovery shakier. But that’s what they want to win an electon.

  • funksands : Cher, 57% in the last poll I saw said “don’t raise debt ceiling”

  • KQuark : Cher I’m afraid the meme that we can default willy nilly is another one of those group though delusions.

  • Chernynkaya : I mean, the fact that this is even a debate shows how bad things have become.

  • KQuark : It’s the X-factor too ADL. The US never defaulted before so like you said the confidence in the green back could be shattered.

  • Chernynkaya : Funk I dunno. Lots of people walked away from underwater mortgages and I bet less than 1% understand the debt ceiling. Few folks care about the Saudi or the Chinese who own a lot of our debt. So I think most people say, sure–let’s default.

  • AdLib : Night AD!

  • Caru : Night, Adonai.

  • Caru : Oh, I gave the Ireland example as a response to the home-owner scenario, not as a response to US realities. I should have made that clear.

  • funksands : Goodnight AD

  • KQuark : Night AD.

  • Chernynkaya : Goodnight, AD!

  • funksands : Dem campaign commercial: The GOP wants to renege on our debts. How about you America?

  • AdLib : Caru – Ireland is in a very tough situation but it is quite different than the US. The dollar is the international currency which gives it a certain value. Also, the amount of debt the US is carrying is so much more enormous, our defaulting would seriously damage those who we owe and a global depression will occur. If Ireland defaults, it will be a jolt but nowhere near as huge.

  • ADONAI : But I dunno. I’m not much of an economist. I do know I am sleepy. America will be fine. Good night folks. Peace be with you.

  • KQuark : I mean bottom line government is 40% of the economy and unlike a budget fight that number technically goes to 0 if we default. It’s the difference between cash flow and budgets.

  • Caru : US default is exceedingly unlikely.

  • funksands : AdL completely agree. The have a two, a joker, a pop tart for a hand. Call.

  • Chernynkaya : AL–I know that is true for all but the freshman TPers. So I am pretty sure we won’t default. Still, it show what they really want.

  • ADONAI : AL, it says, “GDP fell by 4.1% from the spring of 2008 to the spring of 2009” that’s still nowhere near 30%

  • AdLib : Cher – No, this is a hollow threat by the GOP and Obama should feel totally at ease forcing them to fold their BS threat. They are owned by Wall Street and have already assured WS that they will not allow the US to default. This is total theater,.

  • Caru : I’ll give an example: Either Ireland’s export sector – which the government is banking on – grows by over 10% every year for the next few years or Ireland defaults. Under these circumstances default is inevitable. Is it not better to default now than later when more debt has been incurred?

  • Chernynkaya : Exactly, funk.

  • Chernynkaya : I can’t speak to the veracity of those numbers, but look at the section “states response.” It’s bogus.

  • AdLib : AD – “Between June 2007 and November 2008, Americans lost an estimated average of more than a quarter of their collective net worth.[88] Since peaking in the second quarter of 2007, household wealth is down $14 trillion.[89] The Fed also said that at the end of 2008, the debt owed by nonfinancial sectors was $33.5 trillion, including household debt valued at $13.8 trillion.” «link»

  • funksands : Cher, right-wing fascism has generally come to power during times of great economic upheaval. It’s happened before and will again. Now? Maybe.

  • KQuark : There is one big omission in those figures AD. Property values. Those loans are still on the books and the number of banks is not the issue when back then most banks were small and we are in the age of mega banks.

  • ADONAI : This isn’t even the worst recession we’ve ever had.

  • Chernynkaya : Look, there is no argument from any respected economist–and that included the Right–that a default is disaster. The question is, are the Reeps willing to destroy the country and then allow a corporate take-over? because people will become absolutely desperate and might vote for David Koch himself.

  • ADONAI : «link»

  • AdLib : AD – Can you provide some links for your figure of 3%?

  • Caru : That’s in case of a default.

  • KQuark : Exactly ADL the question I should ask AD is would you lend money to someone who just default on the last loan you gave them.

  • ADONAI : We lost 0.6% of banks and our economy dropped about 3%. Bad, but not terrible

  • Caru : The 44% figure is based on 20% + 30% of 80%.

  • AdLib : AD – That’s not correct, we didn’t lose just 3% of the economy.

  • KQuark : The financial sector was 40% of the economy and dropped in half basically.

  • ADONAI : 30%

  • ADONAI : We lost around 305 during the Great Depression. This isn’t even close.

  • AdLib : When wealth is pulled from America by the rest of the world, that is credit or investment that simply settles in elsewhere. There is no automatic return of it to the US. It can be a vicious sycle, other countries flourish and get more investment, the US performs poorly in comparison and stagnates or worsens because of a lack of confidence in its performance. Investments are all about confidence, damage that and money doesn’t come back.

  • Caru : *half*

  • KQuark : Exactly ADL I’m not even factoring in the pure human factor. I’m talking about government employees, contractors, and beneficiaries not getting their checks.

  • ADONAI : 20% of the economy didn’t evaporate. We lost about 3%

  • Caru : That’s 44% in total, nearly have the economy.

  • ADONAI : But raising the debt ceiling isn’t bad? W

  • Caru : That’s a possibility.

  • funksands : al banking industry (someone needs to get the f away from my keyboard). Be back in a minute.

  • KQuark : I mean look we just went through 20% of the economy evaporating because of the financial crisis. So in less than three years you are going to have 30% of the economy collapse because the government defaults.

  • AdLib : Caru – I think that’s a false choice. What about a depression that lasts decades and just levels off?

  • funksands : like it or not t-bills form the foundation of the entire glob

  • AdLib : Funk – Bingo! The moment the US says, “In God We Trust…just kidding, we’re outta here!” Only a sap would trust them with money again, after all, they’ve just told you through their actions that you can’t have any confidence that they won’t default on their debts if they decide they’re too high.

  • ADONAI : KQ, I can’t argue that. I know ti will lead to bad things. But we’ll get over it.

  • Caru : They’re right. ;)

  • KQuark : That’s my point AD the GD was like a big default but in the private sector. The government makes up a much bigger part of the economy now.

  • funksands : My six year old says this topic is boring. :-)

  • Caru : True, though I think the argument is that climbing out of a depression is better and quicker than nursing a broken economy. Not saying that I agree.

  • ADONAI : funk, Europe WAS the world.

  • Chernynkaya : HAHAHAHAHAH!!

  • KQuark : I mean a developing nation is still a developing nation if it defaults. It’s not like they have a middle class to lose

  • ADONAI : SHE’S A WITCH!!! BURN HER!!!!

  • funksands : Adonai, the world was not completely enmeshed fincially then either.

  • Chernynkaya : I touched something and VoxPop disappeared there for a minute.

  • ADONAI : Unemployment was 26% during the Great Depression.Most likely hihger

  • funksands : US Bonds are THE safest investment in the world. Safer than cash, gold, anything. Coming right out and telling our investors and the public “screw you” would be a disaster.

  • AdLib : Caru – I understand, I just think that there are no models or historical examples of how such a default would do anything but plunge us into a massive depression.

  • ADONAI : Those kings weren’t rich?

  • KQuark : Well you have to define destroy. If you want 30% unemployment like SA it’s not good.

  • Caru : Debt is okay if you are the world’s most powerful country, AL. Doesn’t work out that way for most.

  • ADONAI : But I don’t want us to default. it would be shitty. But we WOULD survive.

  • KQuark : It’s worse for a rich country to default because it has much further to fall.

  • Caru : I don’t think that AD is arguing for default, just that it wouldn’t destroy America.

  • funksands : If we default, Japan and China get paid first, not grandma

  • AdLib : Debt is okay but defaulting on it is disaster.

  • KQuark : Yeah ADL debt really is not all that bad if it’s reasonable.

  • AdLib : Is that a good investment or is investing in a country that’s more financially responsible better?

  • ADONAI : KQ, Like most all the countries in South America? Various kings and rulers all throughout the history of Europe. They remained.

  • Chernynkaya : Ad, in all respect, I think you need to look into this further.

  • AdLib : AD – However, the US has a track record of spending far more than it can afford, it’s run a defecit and never caught up in recent memory except for those scant three years under CLinton.

  • Caru : Bye, tex.

  • ADONAI : Cher, what do we use as collateral right now? America. That’s what. They’re not going to walk away from us.

  • KQuark : tc tex

  • Chernynkaya : Take care tex!

  • KQuark : It’s the end of America as we know it AD. Trust me on this one. Look at the history of any other country that defaulted.

  • AdLib : Tex – Take care, nice seeing you!

  • ADONAI : AL, I’m not a country with the largest economy on Earth, a steady workforce, and institutionalize d finances

  • Caru : If you were another bank, yes. A home-owner, no.

  • texliberal : Got to go, after my ex-partner retired he took up running a Security Dept at a local hospital. He’s out of town so I have to go down and check on his charges. They are ARMED and I gotta make sure they don’t get themselves into trouble.

  • Chernynkaya : AD if we default on our loans, who will lend to us? They will want parts of the country as collateral. if at all.

  • AdLib : AD – Let’s consider that proposition. You default on your home loan with a bank then go back to the bank asking for another home loan, saying, “I’m a good credit risk, look, I failed to honor my last loan with you but I won’t be defaulting again on you for a long time because I just did!” What bank would give you another loan?

  • ADONAI : I agree it’s all for show, I’m just saying defaulting ISN’T the end of America.

  • KQuark : Nah don’t see that at all AD. Repubs say the same thing to scare people into worrying about the debt

  • Caru : Hate to break it, but that’s already the general perception. Hey, at least you aren’t perpetual drunkards like we are.

  • ADONAI : So? Fuck the world. We want lenders. They don’t care about that. Just profit from their loans. The less debt we have, the more profit they make.

  • KQuark : Most of all it tells the rest of the world the US is completely disfunctional.

  • Chernynkaya : Reeps believe that they will not be blamed for the catastrophe of no debt ceiling. They think they have nothing to lose politically. But I’m not buying that. That’s all bluster. Wall St. will never let them default.

  • KQuark : Japan and other Asian markets are prime right now.

  • ADONAI : Hyperinflation is coming anyways. I guarantee it.

  • AdLib : Second that KQ, we can’t default on debt owned by other nations or our economy and the dollar will collapse completely. They would never finance any subsequent debt and the dollar and our economy would never recover.

  • ADONAI : But China is not without debt of it’s own. PLUS we would be a better option to loan to. We wouldn’t default again for decades if ever AND we’re free of debt. Who wouldn’t loan to us? I bet China would.

  • KQuark : If the US defaults it will be instant ten digit inflation.

  • Chernynkaya : AD– I heard that Wall Street also siad that they know this is just for show.

  • Caru : Can we have some of that China money? This EU money is pricey.

  • ADONAI : Cher, that was funny. I can picture it. I;m sure he had the innocent look.

  • KQuark : Cher yup

  • Chernynkaya : KQ They do care–about bringing down the government. And not out of any real thought–sheer ideological stupidity.

  • KQuark : AD if lending was domestic that would be true but it’s not. China has other people it can lend money to. I think you are reading it completely wrong.

  • AdLib : I will take any bets, the Repubs are just making a hollow threat, they will be the ones more anxious to raise the debt ceiling when the moment approaches than the Dems.

  • Caru : Hey, if the US defaults it will give Ireland an excuse to, which is fine by me, since default is inevitable in our case.

  • Chernynkaya : AD- that snded like when my toddler son came running out of his room one night screaming, “Nothing happened!”

  • AdLib : KQ – Do you think there’s even a possibility that the Repubs would stab their Wall Street owners in the back and not vote to raise the debt ceiling? I heard that they actually sent emails to Wall Street corps telling them that their vote against a clean bill on that was just for show.

  • KQuark : Cher it’s the tea baggers they just don’t care

  • ADONAI : If America defaults what happens? Well, number one we are free of debt. That’s a HUGE thing. Now, this is purely conservative economics here so I understand hesitation, but our lenders won’t shut us off. it will be bad at first but we’d get over it. It doesn’t need to happen though. I can’t say we don’t deserve it, the selfish lot we are, but it can be avoided.

  • KQuark : Look at them holding the Commerce Secretary nominee hostage so the bad trade deals can pass with out labour guarantees.

  • Chernynkaya : KQ I puzzels me about the default. can’t believe their backers on WallSt will let them, but the Baggers seem hell-bent. And I see steely back-bone from Obama.

  • Caru : They are also very socialistic. It works well, I’d say.

  • AdLib : Welcome back Cher. We didn’t talk about you that much while you were gone. Really.

  • Caru : I agree about China, AD.

  • KQuark : I’ll tell you one thing though all bets are off if the US defaults. Anything can happen then and I get the feeling Repubs would not mind playing Russian Roulette with it.

  • AdLib : Can you imagine where our foreign and trade policies would go if a Repub was elected? They may howl about China but all of the major corps taht finance the GOP make a lot of money there.

  • funksands : Sweden and Norway are very capitalistic. They simply know the true value of a fed, educated, healthy and employed populace. Tends to keep the streets clear.

  • ADONAI : China isn’t the great threat it’s made out to be.

  • Chernynkaya : I’m back. This is depressing, but we really have to face facts to fix anything.

  • Caru : Scandanavia: Land of Liberal Socialism.

  • ADONAI : America doesn’t really need to bring back it’s blue collar jobs. There are millions of jobs waiting to be created. This lull can’t last forever. It never has. We struggled at the onset of the Industrial Revolution. Change means just that. We will stumble at the dawn of a global economy. But we will right ourselves. We are still the biggest and the best. Do not let anyone ever tell you otherwise. We WILL get this done.

  • funksands : Norway, Denmark, and to a lesser extent Sweden have completely open borders, BUT they force outsourcing corps to pay prevailing Scandanavian wages.

  • Caru : Ah, China. Upheaval will come as soon as your property bubble collapses.

  • AdLib : But we have to give more trickle down money to our job destroyers…I mean creators!

  • KQuark : exactly funk and undervalues their currency

  • funksands : China, our biggest competitor double-taxes their corps that do business overseas in order to protect their domestic industry.

  • KQuark : It really will depend on the seniors ADL.

  • AdLib : Funk – You are right on the money…in every sense.

  • texliberal : Good point Funk

  • funksands : Tex, we are the ONLY first-world country that PAYS it companies to leave our shores. Ending that would be a good start.

  • Caru : Many of the facets of the American economy will go to other countries over the next few decades. Not because of outsourcing, but because – as a whole – the world is becoming more industrialised and modern.

  • KQuark : Absolutely AD just ask my dad who lived through the GD.

  • AdLib : KQ – I would propose that the percentage of unemployed is irrelevant when voters will be deciding between two parties and two men, one of which will kill Medicare and batter 99% of the nation to give more of the nation’s wealth to the top 1% and the other that won’t allow it.

  • texliberal : I believe the same AdLib. So how do we get the blue-collar jobs back?

  • funksands : I agree with Adonai, but it is going to take a long time.

  • KQuark : Yeah and when Obama does start good initiatives like HSR the GOP is so nihilistic that states don’t accept the money

  • ADONAI : I understand tex. America has had many downturns. This is nothing new. And many see it as a sign that things are getting worse. But they’re not. It’s just a moment in time. We’ve seen worse.

  • funksands : America is re-knitting an economy around 4.2 million outsourced jobs in the last 10 years, a real estate bubble bursting, increase competition globally, no lending, no policy, and a malovolent GOP. This is going take a while.

  • AdLib : Tex – We do need a strong manufacturing base, good paying blue collar jobs are what made the middle class. Without them, the economy has become stagnant or declined for all but the top 1%.

  • texliberal : Love your glass half-full attitude ADONAI but I’m not so sure

  • ADONAI : It’s the largest most profitable economy on Earth by miles and miles. I’d say that is pretty good.

  • KQuark : FDR won his second term with it near 15%

  • Caru : Fine is fine, but is it good?

  • KQuark : I think it needs to be around 8% and improving

  • KQuark : based on the economy I mean.

  • AdLib : And this total BS on the news shows about unemployment needing to be at 7.2% for Obama to win re-election…WT F? Show me your damn Presidential Prediction Calculator! What total BS!

  • funksands : UCLA estimated that from 1998 to 2008, 30% of ALL private secotr jobs were from the real estate bubble. Those jobs have vaporized.

  • ADONAI : Our economy will be fine. America will be fine.

  • KQuark : All that being said though ADL. Obama ratings are much higher then where they should be.

  • Caru : True, tex.

  • funksands : Hey everybody.

  • funksands : KQ, they are.

  • Caru : I’ve thought the same, AL.

  • funksands : FDR was also the last VP candidate to lose and then win the Presidency.

  • texliberal : Who else believes without a vibrant manufacturing base our economy is in permanent decay?

  • KQuark : I hope you are right funk. I just think the fundamentals of the economy are worse this time

  • AdLib : Hey Funk!

  • ADONAI : Hello funk

  • AdLib : Caru – Obama is attacked for not closing Guantanamo…whi ch he tried to do but Congress blocked. He’s attacked for not creating more jobs…though he has no power to create jobs if Congress doesn’t fund job programs. It goes on and on. I do wonder at times, would a white president be so readily beaten up by his own party and the opposing party over things he has no power over?

  • Caru : Hi, funk.

  • funksands : June numbers: 10% unemployment, 40% approval rating economy in shambles. The year was 1983, the Prez was Reagan. Lot of game left to be played.

  • ADONAI : Apparently FDR was the first President who actually got to chose his VP. And I can only find one VP who served with two different Presidents, Calhoun, but apparently early, EARLY on multiple nominations were rare but not unheard of.

  • KQuark : Look I’m a Dem and believe in stimulus and all that but once an economy tanks like it did in 2008 government can do so much. And what they did do saved a much worse depression.

  • AdLib : I am a bit tired of all these blabbering pundits on both the right and left, they’re all starting to seem like total tools to me.

  • Caru : When you criticise the President, you tend to forget the existence of Congress.

  • AdLib : KQ – Right with you on Reich. There is a smugness to him that can be grating. And I saw him too, stating that Obama is wrong again for not doing what he can’t do. Yep Robert, Obama can wave a magic wand for appropriations for jobs programs, he doesn’t need Congress, it’s not like that’s one of their specific powers.

  • KQuark : hello?

  • KQuark : I saw Reich again spitting his yang. Saying Obama should try to pass a jobs plan that would not pass. That guy irks me the most because under Clinton he was pure DLC.

  • AdLib : Good question KQ, I can’t recall anyone running twice as a VP, sounds unprecedented.

  • AdLib : Tex – Any debate with Bachmann would be entertaining. Especially the way she stares to the left while responding to Biden who is on her right.

  • Haruko Haruhara : Did Adlai Stevenson have the same VP on his ticket?

  • KQuark : not including incumbent

  • Caru : Palin vs Bachmann.

  • KQuark : Has a Veep ever been nominated twice

  • AdLib : Caru – Facts, reality and humanity have a liberal bias.

  • texliberal : AL, a Biden Bachmann debate? Now that would pure ratings gold

  • KQuark : zzzzzzzzzzzing

  • ADONAI : Romney’s VP will be Sarah Palin. So says the sovereign LORD and so it shall be.

  • Caru : Remember, reality has a liberal bias.

  • Haruko Haruhara : I would guess Bachmann. Sarah doesn’t play second fiddle to anything … not even the facts.

  • KQuark : I agree I think he would go for Bachmann though

  • AdLib : AD – No way, Palin will not run as VP again and give up tons of money just to be a 2 time loser. She prefers being a quitter.

  • ADONAI : Romney’s VP will be Sarah Palin.

  • Caru : Sarah Palin can’t handle being second fiddle.

  • KQuark : or Bachmann

  • AdLib : I’m betting on a serious enthusiasm gap between the Dems and Repubs, reversed from what it was in 2010 when the Dems were on the wrong end of that.

  • ADONAI : Romney’s VP will be Sarah Palin.

  • Caru : Eww.

  • ADONAI : Chickens? No. Everyone knows that society is run and most high level decisions are made through a series of blowjobs. Even if the currency falters, this system will remain in place.

  • AdLib : Or…does Romney successfully pander to the Baggers and choose Michele Bachmann or another Bagger as his VP?

  • KQuark : I thought that post about Repugs lying 39% of the time was proof of that. ADL

  • Caru : A chicken is a perfectly valid bartering item, KQ

  • KQuark : I can’t believe I saw a bagger saying he wants guvment and insurance companies out of health care. What are we suppose to trade chickens.

  • Haruko Haruhara : I think they will hold their noses and vote Republican … or write in Ron Paul’s name, Adlib. Or stay home.

  • AdLib : KQ – Being a Repub seems to have become a psychological disorder too. Living in denial, believing fantasies as reality, paranoia…does the HCR Dems passed cover being a Repub?

  • Caru : Here’s a question. Do they drink tea at all?

  • ADONAI : If the Tea Party really dislikes Romney, I wouldn’t be surprised if they walked out on his nomination.

  • Caru : G.O.P: Greatly Overt Pugnaciousness.

  • texliberal : The thing that is really bizarre is baggers can’t even remember recent history and W’s zero net job growth for eight years.

  • KQuark : They could go third party but all enthusiasm will be faux nonetheless.

  • ADONAI : Wait. That’s genius! A “War on Wars”. America goes to war against war. Is anyone writing this down?! It’s gold! Wait. I’m writing it down.

  • AdLib : SO, if Romney ends up the nominee, what will the Teabaggers do? Will they fall in line? WIll they do what some Purist Dems did in Nov 2010 and just not vote?

  • KQuark : HH the GOP is no longer a political party it’s a personality disorder

  • Caru : History is for the unpatriotic.

  • Haruko Haruhara : You know what’s frightening. Someone BADLY butchering both English and history … and that person’s supporters loving her all the more for it.

  • Caru : Huzzah!

  • AdLib : HH – Let’s celebrate with a big plate of Freedom Fries.

  • ADONAI : A part of the larger “War on Wars”

  • Haruko Haruhara : That was during the War of the Roses.

  • ADONAI : Hey HH! And that was a monumental day for this young country!

  • Caru : Those French.

  • AdLib : Hey Haruko! Nice to see ya!

  • KQuark : PMSL HH

  • Haruko Haruhara : Hi everyone. I just heard today that George Washington crossed the Mississippi River and defeated the French at the Battle of the Bulge!

  • Caru : I don’t think that they have any ideologues with a good shot this time though.

  • KQuark : Well as long as conservative business holds up any jobs recovery anything can happen

  • ADONAI : Exactly KQ. And all the other people in the field will attack Romney. That’s what you do. Hillary and Obama got pretty testy(HA!). You attack the perceived leader.

  • Caru : Can I ask something: If you’ve watched the “West Wing”, would you have voted for the Republican candidate or the Democratic candidate in the last season?

  • KQuark : As much as Dems think Repugs nominate ideologues. They only nominate ideologues they think can win.

  • AdLib : And isn’t it delightful that half of the GOP hates Romney and are trying to destroy him? What fun the next year will be!

  • ADONAI : True tex. Very true. It just ain’t natural.

  • Chernynkaya : Have to take a few minutes–BBL.

  • AdLib : Me too, I say Romney right now.

  • texliberal : Cable news has done to politics what the DH did to the American League

  • Chernynkaya : I have to admit, Romney.

  • Caru : I have no idea.

  • ADONAI : Mitt Romney

  • KQuark : Romney 100% sure

  • ADONAI : And what was up with that? Every time I think “this person can’t get elected” I remember that not only was W. elected President but he was RE-ELECTED! Americas got four years of him and decided, “yeah,I could go for some more”. Thanks Kerry. Who runs Democratic campaigns? Obama is lucky McCain was 100 years old and the jokes just wrote themselves.

  • KQuark : He He ADL

  • AdLib : SNAP POLL – Who do you predict will be the GOP nominee for president?

  • Chernynkaya : KQ It has become unbelievable. I can’t keep up with the outright lies and the outrageous statements!

  • Caru : Ha!

  • KQuark : yeah like Sulivan he’s at least a sane conservative

  • AdLib : The GOP Field – Night of the Living Dead

  • Chernynkaya : AD–RIMSHOT!

  • KQuark : Cher I mean can you imagine a Dem attacking another Dem for voting for a Dem presidential candidate? I mean this GOP is in bizzaro world

  • Caru : GOP ~ The Neverending Story.

  • AdLib : AD – I hate sequels too, especially when they’re named George Bush.

  • Chernynkaya : KQ I am st5arting to read Frum more and more.

  • ADONAI : I wonder why they make pointless sequels to stories that clearly don’t need one.

  • AdLib : Cher – There are a number of ironic lines about Romney in that trailer like that one. And Crispin Glover even looks a bit like him in that movie.

  • texliberal : Despite All My Rage? I remember when my youngest and his friends recited those lyrics, over and over. Drove me nuts.

  • KQuark : Cher Frum’s column on Pawlenty’s ad criticizing Romney was classic.

  • Chernynkaya : Oh you’re so bad! “nothing goes right.” HAHAHAH! I was just trying to find a vid I saw about Romney flip flops but there were too many on YouTube to find it!

  • AdLib : AD – The sequel to Romney’s campaign ad: «link»

  • KQuark : I think it was a song “Ben”. Where is Kalima when you need her? :lol:

  • Caru : What a terrible trailer.

  • ADONAI : Didn’t Michael Jackson write a love song about the rat in that movie?

  • texliberal : Hey AD

  • KQuark : exactly Caru. He came out and said climate change was real. He’ll take it back next week.

  • AdLib : Have you seen Willard “Mitt” Romney’s surprising new campaign ad? «link»

  • texliberal : Hey Cher. Got it KQ

  • ADONAI : HA! trivia

  • Caru : Romney is too Romney to be an evangelical.

  • Chernynkaya : Hi tex!

  • KQuark : No tex I think religions are hugely dangerous if you are an Evangelical type. But Romney is not that guy.

  • Chernynkaya : The only difference, AD is that we can’t ask Willard, “Why the long face?”

  • Caru : A stout-sounding name. Not like him at all.

  • texliberal : Hey AdLib

  • ADONAI : HA! Willard.

  • Caru : Smittens! I like it.

  • ADONAI : Hello tex

  • AdLib : Hey Tex!

  • ADONAI : That’s true Cher. he does have that John Kerry charisma going.

  • Chernynkaya : Sure Caru! But I call him by his given name: Willard.

  • texliberal : KQ, when you stated on the Mormon thread that since all religions are based on myth and legend Romney’s faith was no big deal, you’d didn’t infer religions are benign in their impact on politics, did you?

  • Caru : I really hope that Obama emphasises that record.

  • AdLib : Caru – Or Smittens?

  • Chernynkaya : Also, AD, Romney is really SO DULL. There is no way i can see people canvassing for him or even cheering.

  • Caru : Can we call Romney’s followers “Mittens”?

  • ADONAI : No doubt AL. Obama has a strong record to run on. The Republicans very much do not.

  • Caru : I refuse to play multiplayer online games. I have a tendancy to binge on such things.

  • Chernynkaya : I had to have my hubby phone pried form my hands once I started Angry Birds.

  • KQuark : Twitter oh know I have to do that too.

  • AdLib : I actually smile at ROmney saying, “Obama has failerd America” because most Americans know he’s full of it. They just recently saw him take out Bin Laden, HCR passed, DADT is on the way out and maybe 1 million jobs were saved connected to the auto industry. Meanwhile, under Romney, MA was 47th in job creation and while at Bain Capital, Romney orchestrated the buyout of companies quickly followed by the firing of many employees. Who has failed America? America knows, Mittens.

  • KQuark : I won’t Caru I played one of those online games and almost got addicted

  • Chernynkaya : Of course KQ And I follow you on Twitter I think too.

  • ADONAI : I almost signed up for Facebook a little while back but luckily I came to my senses before it was too late.

  • KQuark : Cool Cher friend me!

  • Chernynkaya : KQ I’m getting ready to sign up for FB too.

  • Caru : Don’t play the games, KQ!

  • ADONAI : HA!

  • Chernynkaya : You knew Sonny Bono?!

  • ADONAI : It is about money to a great degree. Keeping yourself in the cycle.

  • Chernynkaya : I think you’re right AD. Just I am a worrier.

  • KQuark : I was just signing up for FB, ugh yes I made the plunge and was linking the planet.

  • Caru : Has the MSM noticed the saving the Auto industry thing yet?

  • ADONAI : My friend refused to sled down a hill dotted with giant trees and boulders. I told him it was fine and that I would hold his purse for him as we went back down the hill. That’s called motivation. Long story short, I miss that guy everyday. He just never saw that tree.

  • AdLib : I think Romney could end up the nominee thanks to his boatloads of money but he will be so battered and exposed…while Obama cruises through primary season, still the man who saved the American auto industry and killed Bin Laden.

  • Chernynkaya : Heh!

  • KQuark : And Cher and John boy.

  • KQuark : and AD :-)

  • Chernynkaya : Well howdy, KQ!

  • KQuark : Hi AdL and Caru

  • Caru : You’re probably right, Cher.

  • Caru : Hi, KQ.

  • Caru : I love that word, AD! I got it from “Tintin” comics.

  • ADONAI : Hello KQ

  • Chernynkaya : Caru–there are too many polls that all have the same results to atribute it to wording I think.

  • AdLib : KQUARK! So nice to see you on Vox!

  • ADONAI : Good stuff Caru. I’m trying to bring back, “balderdash”.

  • Caru : That’s a great point, AL.

  • KQuark : All of a sudden I hear popping on my computer hi all.

  • AdLib : Caru – I would suggest that the shock at a Dem winning in that NY district is more a statement about how gerrymandering has dominated most states. Dems and Repubs in state legislatures actually come together on re-districting and agree on lines so that all are most protected in their seats, drawing outrageous districts to make them mostly Dem or Repub as much as possible.

  • ADONAI : You’re probably right Cher. he is just a politician at the end of the day. Can’t forget that.

  • Chernynkaya : Teddy Kennedy called him “multiple choice Mitt.”

  • Caru : Yep, AD. But, my English teacher says that vacillating is our new “Hamlet” word, so I was trying it out.

  • Chernynkaya : But AD, Rom. has no honesty or scruples at all, so he will lie, and say he’d now vote for “something like” the Ryan budget.

  • ADONAI : a flip flopper?

  • Caru : It may have to do with how the polls are worded, Cher.

  • Caru : Vacillating is a word that Romney embodies.

  • Chernynkaya : I just think it’s really interesting that Obama get low ratings for the economy, but high ratings as doing a good job. WTF does that mean? People are pretty ignorant. It’s more emotional decision than we want to realize.

  • AdLib : The only reason Romney is ahead in IA is name recognition. It’s way too early to have meaningful numbers and opinions registered. They don’t vote for 8 months. Remember, in December of 2007, Hillary was 20 points ahead of Obama and Giuliani was way ahead of the rest of the GOP field. Then came the real campaign and those early name recognition numbers evaporated when people REALLY started thinking about who they wanted as president.

  • Caru : Do you know that district that the GOP lost in New York? Has anyone else been hearing phrases like this, “The Republicans have no business losing there.”? From both liberal and conservative commentators. It’s really an example of how institutionalise d the two-party system is.

  • ADONAI : I wonder if Romney would sign it myself Cher. I tend to think no since he seems to have views on healthcare that are progressive for a Republican. As much as he wants to run away from “Romneycare” to get the Republican nomination, he KNOWS it was the right thing to do.

  • Chernynkaya : AL–Jinx!

  • AdLib : Cher – Thanks for the Nate Silver info, I was just writing the same thing in my previous comment!

  • Chernynkaya : No one has asked Romney if he would sign the Ryan budget. The press is protecting him.

  • Caru : I wonder if the trend on how accurate polls are closer to the election is going up or down with the expansion of mass media and then new media.

  • AdLib : AD – I completely agree. Though the Pudnuts (Bito’s phrase) on the news channels will push the meme that unemployment numbers could mean a Repub winning, I think it’s BS. The killing Medicare bit will peel off the Seniors and older voters from the GOP who they can usually count on. And younger voters won’t vote for having Medicare taken away. The Repubs are driving off a cliff and they think they’re winning a race!

  • ADONAI : She’s like a combination of Ross Perot, Al Sharpton, Dan Quayle, and that one lady in your neighborhood who feels the need to involve herself in everything.

  • Chernynkaya : Nate Silver had a great column about how the economy/job numbers are by no means the determining factor, kind of filling out that other column I cited. Very interesting and nuanced.

  • Chernynkaya : I hinestly think it is too early to watch any polls but if Romney is ahead in IA, than he’s the one. I think he’s the strongest of the weak field, but he has an outside shot.

  • Caru : Bachman is different than the others, she’s insane.

  • ADONAI : I hope Bachmann runs. She is an endless source of amusement.

  • AdLib : I think Michele Bachmann has a shot at winning in IA. Once she declares and campaigns, I could imagine Romney slipping and Bachmann climbing.

  • ADONAI : Caru, I agree. With unemployment numbers where they are, Republicans had a chance. Cher pointed out to me that almost every President with high unemployment numbers was defeated in their re-election. But the whole Medicare thing, and the Tea Party shenanigans, add another layer to this. The Medicare thing was SO stupid. How did they ever let that get through?

  • AdLib : “Mitt Romney is the Republican favorite in Iowa, according to a report released Wednesday by Public Policy Polling. The former Massachusetts Governor leads the state with 21 percent support from voters who usually vote in Iowa’s primaries. Former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin and ex-Godfather’s Pizza CEO Herman Cain tie for second place with 15 percent. Newt Gingrich comes in with 12 percent, Rep. Michele Bachmann charts at 11 percent and Tim Pawlenty received 10 percent. All other candidates failed to earn double digits.”

  • Chernynkaya : She will lose her job on Fox for one and for another, she isn’t disciplined enough. She can travel around on a bus, but at some point she has to take part in a debate and if she doesn’t I think the only ones who will think she’s running will be her followers. Which aer actually very few.

  • Caru : AL, that’s what I like about him. He rarely doesn’t give it as he sees it.

  • Caru : Maddow is pointing out that Herman Cain is tying in the polls with Palin.

  • AdLib : Caru – When I was at HP, Cenk was the first columnist there I faved. Since then I’ve disagreed on a number of things with him but I think he is a straight up guy.

  • Caru : If the Republican ticket splits, then Obama wipes the floor. Even if the ticket doesn’t split, Obama is probably going to win overwhelmingly.

  • Chernynkaya : I did’nt catch O’Donnell tonight but I have heard him say that. DCan Romney win IA? NH yes.

  • ADONAI : I know almost nothing about Tim Pawlenty.

  • AdLib : CHer – But Palin could run a half-serious campaign, announcing but still refusing to answer reporters. What has she got to lose?

  • Caru : I like Cenk quite a bit, actually.

  • ADONAI : Caru, Nationally? No. But if it splits the Republican Party, that would be enough for her to run in my opinion. Then it’s anyone’s nomination. It all works out pretty well for Democrats. Just sit back and watch the fireworks.

  • Chernynkaya : The TP represents at most 20% according to polls, but they show the power of activism and corp. $$. They are not real people, just corporations.

  • AdLib : Cenk and I are on the same page.

  • AdLib : Lawrence O’Donnell apparnetly has really invested himself in T-Paw winning the nom, he won’t shut up about it and presses every guest to agree with him. My bet is T-Paw is out of serious contention after losing in Iowa and NH.

  • Chernynkaya : AD–once she declares she loses all power and has to answer more history questions. She loves the power of kingmaker.

  • Caru : Is the tea Party really as strong as they’re made out to be?

  • Caru : A point Cenk made on The Young Turks. Palin might run, but not in a traditional way. She already gets free advertising.

  • ADONAI : What about the Tea Party? They’ll back Plain fully I believe.

  • AdLib : Caru and Cher, I’m with you, Palin is not running, at least not in a competitive way. She might run in a tangentiual way just to boost her celebrity but she won’t deplete her PAC.

  • Chernynkaya : That’s a big N-O, Captain.

  • ADONAI : Definitely

  • Caru : T-Paw?

  • Caru : Poll: No.

  • ADONAI : That’s actually a pretty good point Caru.

  • Chernynkaya : AD She’s never gonna run. You won’t ever listen to me–I know all! But seriously folks–I’m starting to think it’ll be Bad ‘n Pawlenty

  • AdLib : SNAP POLL: Is Palin going to run???

  • Caru : Oh, so that’s what those are for, Cher.

  • Caru : Palin probably won’t run. She’d make less money.

  • AdLib : 3-D seems like such a gimmick to me, it’s fine for certain films but others just have it tacked on. The studios make so much more money on them because they charge more for 3-D and people are willing to pay more.

  • Chernynkaya : Caru–you need to put on those red/blue glasses! Hehe!

  • ADONAI : So, is Mitt the front runner now or are we still waiting on Palin to make her inevitable declaration?

  • Caru : 3D hurts my eyes!

  • ADONAI : HA!

  • Caru : Oh, cool.

  • AdLib : AD – Are you hand writing your comments???

  • Chernynkaya : No. I can never see the candles in L.A. anyway.

  • AdLib : Caru – Two things, don’t worry about responding to everyone, pick and choose. Also, for your convenience, there is a “+” and “-” button just under the bottome right corner of the display box, you can size the text box so it works best for you.

  • Caru : That’s a good idea, Cher. I’m one of those that’s either totally chilled or completely impatient. Finding a middle-ground is a challenging thing, and most amusing for my family to watch as I try.

  • ADONAI : HA! I can’t type

  • ADONAI : Does everyone ever worry that the candles in the sky will go out and we won’t be able tosee a tnight

  • Chernynkaya : Oh, AD–guess that’s true.

  • AdLib : Caru – Just take your time responding to anyone’s comment and the thread will be picked up on.

  • ADONAI : I just dunno Cher. Pretty soon everyone will have a 3-D tv so I figure I can wait.

  • Chernynkaya : Caru– it’s only as fast as you can type. Don;t pay attention to the other typers. Just read and answer one person at your own speed.

  • AdLib : Caru – It can move a bit fast when the whole crowd arrives but that’s part of the fun.

  • Caru : Thanks, AL. How fast is this usually? Typing isn’t my strong suit.

  • Chernynkaya : AD–you should see at least one 3D before you die.

  • ADONAI : AdLib, that sounds awesome.I love things like that.

  • Chernynkaya : Hi Caru! Top O’the evening to ya!

  • AdLib : Welcome Caru! So nice to see you on Vox!

  • ADONAI : Hello Caru

  • AdLib : It walks among the crowd and kids go wild.

  • Caru : Hi. I’ve never been on Vox before. It’s the middle of the night here. That’s what I get for taking a long nap earlier.

  • ADONAI : I’ve never been to a 3-D movie. It just seems stupid.

  • Chernynkaya : When I was a kid I loved the natural history museum–well into my teens. I loved the bugs and was just shocked by the coealanthe (sp?) fish.

  • AdLib : AD – They have a live dinosaur show at the Nat Hist Museum that you’d like, a puppet/animatron ic that looks quite real.

  • AdLib : She loves three equally, Natural History Museum and La Brea Tar Pits (Page) and the CA Science museum. Saw 2 Imax movies too, Born to Be Wild and Arabia 3-D.

  • ADONAI : Hooray!!!

  • Chernynkaya : AD==that’s why they built the Childrens’ Museum–for you! :lol:

  • ADONAI : Museums don’t let you touch anything. Yeah, that wooly mammoth skeleton looks awesome, but why can’t I get a picture of me riding it for my Facebook page.

  • Chernynkaya : I used to be a digger at the tar pits–LONG time ago–right after they built the Paige.

  • AdLib : LACMA, CA Science Museum, Natural History Museum, Air and Space and La Brea Tar Pits.

  • Chernynkaya : Oh–very cool. What did she like best?

  • AdLib : Hey AD!

  • AdLib : We actually didn’t go on a trip last weekend, went Museum hopping with the little one all weekend.

  • Chernynkaya : Hey, AD!

  • ADONAI : Hello

  • Chernynkaya : Good! You? Did you have a good trip?

  • AdLib : Hey Cher! How are you this evening?

  • Chernynkaya : Hi AdlIb.

  • AdLib : Don’t forget to say “hi” when you arrive.

  • AdLib : The Vox Populi widget is back! Chat tonight on Vox Populi on its page (under Live Events) or in the widget!

  • AdLib : Vox Populi begins tonight at 7:00 pm, see you then!

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