“The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.” Former NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre following the Sandy Hook  Elementary Mass Shooting in 2012

“Good guys with guns stop bad guys with guns…” That has been a core argument offered by the NRA to combat efforts to limit access to weapons. It joined the other standard defenses for virtually unlimited access to a variety of weapons and other equipment that are regular features at events where multiple casualties occur.

Nearly every state implemented new gun laws after the Sandy Hook shooting, BUT about two-thirds enacted laws that actually made access to guns easier and gave more rights to gun owners, the New York Times reported in 2013. That trend has continued.

Experts on violent crime say such incidents make clear that despite the NRA’s post-Sandy Hook justification, relaxing gun laws to let more people to arm themselves has done nothing to prevent mass shootings.

In states where Republicans have control, laws that loosen gun restrictions increased by 75% in the wake of mass shootings, according to a 2019 Harvard Business School report.

Texas––which has long had permissive laws on guns––was among the states that expanded gun rights, by reducing safety training requirements to apply for concealed-carry permits. During its 2019 session alone, the state legislature passed 10 laws making it easier for gun owners to keep and carry their weapons. The laws, which take effect Sept. 1, will, among other things, let Texans carry guns in places of worship and prohibit schools from barring licensed gun owners from bringing their weapons onto school property, so long as they are kept in a locked vehicle.

Similarly, Ohio has also expanded rights for gun owners since the Sandy Hook shooting. In 2017, Ohio lawmakers passed a law that allows people with concealed-carry weapons permits to bring firearms into day care centers and onto private planes and lets employees bring guns to their company parking lots.

So where were those “good guys with guns”?  If by “good guys” you mean law enforcement personnel, then they were there and they responded speedily (in 32 seconds in Dayton, and in six minutes).

In Dayton, police were already nearby when the gunman, armed with an AR-15-style assault rifle fitted with a 100-round drum magazine opened fire. He fired at least 41 times in the seconds it took for six officers to respond and kill him. The shooter killed 9 people and wounded 14 in 32 seconds.

In El Paso, police were not nearby but were able to respond to the situation within six minutes. By that point, the gunman had stopped shooting and left the scene—leaving 22 people dead and 26 wounded.

While mass shootings have not increased in frequency since 2012, they have become deadlier, according to a 2017 analysis by Politico. Five of the 10 deadliest mass shootings in U.S. history have occurred since Sandy Hook (El Paso ranks no. 7). These include the two deadliest attacks––the October 2017 shooting in Las Vegas where 58 people were killed and more than 500 injured, and the June 2016 shooting at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando, where 49 were killed and more than 50 injured.

Both in states where access to arms is easy and where gun ownership is very high.

Given the nature of the attacks, gunmen can inflict horrific casualty counts within seconds, before anyone can respond. The have the advantage of surprise with the chaos that ensues, soft targets and weapons built to fire rapidly, and be reloaded rapidly. There have been a number of cases where shooters have been “dressed for combat” sporting body armor, helmets, goggles, and ammo bags. All easily available.

Experts point out that were civilians to open fire it is very likely that such action will make things worse. Stanford Law School professor John Donahue’s research has focused on gun violence and policy. “Unless you’re very well trained, you usually add more to the body count than you subtract,” he writes. Donahue points out that in cases like this a chaotic scene is made more chaotic by those who show guns but who are not easily identifiable as law enforcement. Lacking the coordination that communication equipment and command centers provide, the chances of shooting in error or in being shot by someone else increases exponentially. “Most gun owners understand this and choose not to pull out weapons they are carrying,” says Donahue.

There was at least one armed citizen at the Walmart in El Paso during the shooting. Army Pfc. Glendon Oakley said in interviews that he was carrying a licensed handgun and drew it when he heard the gunshots on Saturday. “That’s what you do,” he told the military publication Task & Purpose. “You pull your gun, you find cover and you figure out what to do next.”

But, he said he didn’t see the shooter and so instead focused on rescuing as many children as he could in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. “I holstered my weapon and hid it so that I was just focused on the kids, I wasn’t really worried about myself. So just put my head down and just ran with them as fast as I could,” he told CNN. “They were anxious, when they were in my arms, they were trying to jump out of my arms but trying to keep them as tight as possible. They are kids, so they don’t understand what is going on.”

It’s extremely rare to find instances of armed civilians responding to mass shooters in public spaces, even when they have the legal right to carry weapons––like most residents of Texas and Ohio do. Typically, mass shootings occur in crowded, populated areas—and people never respond exactly how they might imagine they’d react, says Joe Hendry, director of risk assessments and a national trainer at the ALICE Training Institute, which focuses on response strategies to shootings.

“Carrying a concealed weapon is basically for the defense of yourself. It’s a whole different level of training and expertise to defend others. Being able to defend others takes intense training, frequent drills, well developed plans and command/control services in place,” Hendry said.

Even law enforcement officers, who receive training to respond to mass shootings, often don’t react as expected. For one thing, police usually respond to shootings once they are already underway—whether they appear on the scene within a few seconds or several minutes, the damage has already been done. According to Hendry, only about one in five rounds fired by officers responding to shootings hit their targets.

“It’s a very difficult thing to shoot in a room that’s full of people, while someone is shooting at you,” he says.

And even with the proper training and being in the right place, armed citizens cannot always stop a shooter before the assailant opens fire.

Off-duty Border Patrol agent Jonathan Morales was hailed as a hero for pulling his concealed gun and responding to a gunman who entered the Chabad of Poway Synagogue in Southern California in April.

“It happened so fast, literally within seconds,” Morales said. “With our police training and shooting scenarios, you already know what to expect but he was moving so fast and there were so many people in the way, I could not get a clear shot.”

Ironically, it was an unarmed Army veteran, Oscar Stewart, who chased the gunman out of the synagogue while shouting at him. As the shooter got into his car to flee, Stewart wrestled his weapon away from him. That’s when Morales fired four bullets into the car.

Principle Source Material Drawn From: https://time.com/5644578/good-guys-with-guns-el-paso-dayton/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=the-brief&utm_content=20190807&xid=newsletter-brief

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Proud to be an Independent Progressive. I am a progressive- a one time Eisenhower Republican (from 1965 through 2004)who is now a Democrat. I live in a very RED STATE and am a community activist with a very BLUE AGENDA. I was a professor of history, and am now a researcher and gentleman farmer. My political positions are mixed - thus my preferred identification as a Progressive Independent. I am conservative on matters of military intervention, in regard to abortion, immigration, the public school system, gun rights, taxation, voter ID. But I am a traditional conservative, a Buckley, National Review, Eisenhower Republican..... I am a liberal on matters of health care care, funding education, taxation (yes one can be both liberal and conservative on this), civil rights, and alternative energy development/climate change.

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NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

Excellent job, Murph! In your own powerful way, you’ve utterly demolished —
may I say shot to pieces? — every false argument of the good as demented
gun lobby and its fanatical supporters.

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

x

Kalima
Admin

Happens to me all the time with Apple spell check. All fixed now. 🙂

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

Wow, you’re Kalima on the spot! Arigatou gozaimasu!

Kalima
Admin

Just caught it on my afternoon rounds.

Doitashimashite! You are very welcome.

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

That was very lucky for me! While I can’t say I never
make a mistake I don’t catch before I post a comment,
to my knowledge this is the first time I made one like
that!

Kalima
Admin

My eyesight is bad. I make mistakes all the time because I have to use a magnifying glass. Usually I catch them, sometimes I don’t. Yet I can often see mistakes in news stories and headers, so we are capable of doing it.

Here at the Planet, nobody minds.

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

I’m very sorry to hear you have to use a magnifying glass. I don’t know anyone who never makes a mistake, and having to use a magnifying glass just makes it more difficult to find and correct one.

But speaking of noticing mistakes, a very long time
ago I happened upon some of English home- and classwork from elementary school and was very surprised to see how atrocious my spelling was for several years.

I was mortified — for as long as I can remember,
without even looking for spelling or grammatical errors, they almost literally leap at me from a page.

Kalima
Admin

Oh, my bad eyes started when I was sic after a childhood illness and I always wore glasses, then I developed cataracts and had both eyes operated on one year apart. After asking me if I wanted far vision or near, I told them near because I was short sighted. Unfortunately I can see much better far, but have blurred vision if I’m too close. From childhood I loved to read and that has become difficult.

Bought The Mueller Report on Kindle and they have a Cloud reader so I can read a few pages in a day. It will have to do.

The fact that we share the same ability to spot someone else’s spelling mistakes is funny.

Well, let me wish you a peaceful weekend, and I should call it a night as hubby is off to Shanghai in the morning for work. Hopefully the deadly typhoon will have passed before he arrives.

See you soon and take care.

Kalima
Admin

Lol! A stone head as my mother used to say. Have had a lot of health issues thrown my way but why mope when I’m still alive. When life hands you lemons, make lemonade.

I still clean my own house even after over 30 years of living with RA. I can’t see for monkey nuts but have always liked soft focus anyway. Am recovering from a surgery that saved my life a few months ago. I’m so grateful for what I have left even if it includes my Stein Kopf and a sense of humour I inherited from my dear mother.

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

Very well and bravely said! And as you could expect since I just returned to Planet POV only very recently, I had no idea you had life-saving surgery a few months ago.

Thank goodness you’re still with
us, and I hope you’re making good progress in your recovery. I also hope the surgery will help ensure you have many more productive years of life with
the good health to enjoy it!

Kalima
Admin

I only told two dear friends here because the neurosurgeon had prepared us for all the things that could go wrong and we didn’t know what to expect.

I remember someone calling my name as I woke up in the ICU. My husband who had been waiting patiently in my room for 8 hours. My wonderful doctor asking me what my name was and squeezing my hand when I answered, telling me that I was going to be fine and to please stop crying. 11 days later I was holding our remaining cat at home, and filled with wonder that I could still remember things.

The healing process generally takes about three months so I have a few more weeks to go. My hair is growing back and the energy is coming back too. Life is good and I feel so very lucky that an unconnected MRI found the problem before it was too late.

Plan to enjoy each day as it comes.

Again, thank you for your very kind words. They are much appreciated.

AdLib
Admin

Can’t express how grateful I am for the surgery working out so well!

But nothing and nobody can stop Kalima! Thank goodness!

Kalima
Admin

I gain my strength from the friends and family I love. You and Kes are two of that group and your support during the tough times has always guided me through them. I’m the one who should be eternally grateful, and I am.

Thank you in droves.

kesmarn
Admin

Awww… many thanks! But the balance is tipped very much in your direction when it comes to who has been more supportive of whom!

You have been through so much over the last few years, Kalima, and have given the Planet your all through the whole time. True strength.

AdLib
Admin

And vice-versa! You inspire through your strength and determination. I knew you would come through this with flying colors.

An old simple quote stayed with me since I was a kid is, “Someone who won’t be beaten, can’t be beaten.”

That’s so you!

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

I read that while Typhoon Lekima has already
wreaked havoc after reaching landfall, it was
expected to weaken into a tropical storm with
heavy rain by the time it got to Shanghai. I
pray that your husband got to Shanghai
safely, remains safe there, and has an
uneventful return home to you! Please let me
know when he gets back.

Thank you for telling me why you have to use a magnifying glass. As I don’t know anything else
about your eyes and your vision besides what
you’ve just told me, I can’t even guess if there’s
any chance having your artificial lenses removed
(and I assume they may be the original ones you
got) and be replaced with new ones that could
give you better near vision without using a
magnifying glass.

I know it’s done, but you could have a condition
which would preclude this choice or have already
been told it wouldn’t be a practical option for you
for other reasons.

Kalima
Admin

Thank you for your concern, NoManIsAnIsland. I was worried but he called last night to say that the storm had passed. He will have to extend for a day because the flights to his destination after Shanghai, had been cancelled.

Yes, I think that they could replace the lens in my right eye but the tissue behind the left eye is damaged after a nasty fall on my head in 2010. As I said to Murph, I’m recovering from surgery in June but intend to do something about my one eye as soon as I’m given the go head by my surgeon.

Thank you again for your kind concern. I am touched.

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

You’re very welcome, Kalima.
I happen to be a physician; and
while I’m not an ophthalmologist,
I do know something about the
field of ophthalmology.

But even were I not a medical professional, I’d care just as
much as I do now about
correcting a good friend’s vision
to the greatest extent possible.

Kalima
Admin

Somehow I’m not at all surprised that you are a physician as your advice was very comforting. I might go to the same university hospital where I had my recent surgery though as my rheumatologist there suggested, they might give me much better results knowing my history for the last 32 years.

It would really mean something special to me to come back here to tell you that my vision had improved.

Thank you so much. I am very grateful that you made me feel as if I have a chance.

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

You are so welcome, and it’s very thoughtful of you to let me know this.

Any time I can make someone feel
as if she or he has a reasonable chance of improvement, especially when I think a recommendation for
surgical intervention may be in
order when I don’t and can’t have full knowledge of the situation, I will do it. But as you can can imagine, an opportunity such as this is very rare over the internet.

Hippocrates’ hallowed exhortation to
physicians “Above all, do no harm” also means not offering false hope — which is worse than an inevitable final acceptance of a condition that can’t be ameliorated in the current state of our medical knowledge and therapeutic treatments and procedures.

Now you feel as if you have a chance you didn’t have before; and I’m confident that as a very level headed woman with true grit, you will keep your hopes in tight check until an eye surgeon can examine you and give you his or her own expert advice.

As I wrote earlier and must stress again, there are so many facts I don’t and can’t know about you it would have been wrong for me to say anything beyond the qualified advice I offered.

I know you will let me know when you’ve been able to have a consultation; and if it turns out you can be helped and your vision does improve, it will
mean something really special to me
me as well — cheers!

Kalima
Admin

I think that the new lens in my right eye could be damaged as I was diagnosed with “dry eye” months after the last of two operations. My left eye has damage to the sclera, so I don’t hold out much hope. Still, I will never know until I go to get a second opinion and that is what I will do after our weather gets cooler in October.

You will be one of the first to know because of your kindness in reaching out to me. As for the recent surgery, I’m optimistic. Less naps in the afternoon. Able to do a little more as each week passes. Itchy incision site, a sign of healing and rave reviews about my CT scan results. What else does a girl need? 😉

Hubby just called from China. He is being treated like a king and will be home tomorrow evening. I will tell him about you.

Take care and see you later. Many, many thanks.

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

As the replacement lenses for defective
natural lenses are made of silicone or
acrylic material, they wouldn’t be
expected to be affected by “dry eye.”
So if the lens in your right eye has
been degraded, it may have been from
another cause.

Ask the eye surgeon you consult in
October to check to see if the damage
behind your left eye from the fall you
noted is severe enough to make an intraocular lens implant meaningless.

And if there is some hope for the left
eye as well, a corneal transplant
could replace your damaged sclera, and
an implanted lens could you a chance for better vision in both eyes.

It’s wonderful to hear how well you’re
recovering from your neurosurgery.
Keep up the good work!

Many, many “Your welcomes,” and
please tell your Hubby “Konnichiwa”
for me tomorrow evening!

Kalima
Admin

Good to know that dry eye doesn’t damage the lens but it has damaged the surface of the eye I was told. The more I think about my fall, the more I think that a haemorrhage in my left eyeball in 2008 could have caused the damage in my left eye. I was treated for 2 months when they said the debris had all cleared up. Two months later I started with blurred vision and went back. They couldn’t find anything wrong when I went in for follow ups. I gave up and the cataracts took until 2017 to completely cloud my vision but I could still read and use a computer. After the procedure, I no longer could. Hugely disappointing after their promise of better vision in both eyes.

I will explain everything to a new doctor as soon as I make an appointment for October, thanks to your advice.

Yrd, I will most certainly pass on your message to my hubby. It’s been awfully quiet without him here.

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

Thank you for the additional information
about the haemorrhage in your left eye
after the 2008 fall.

As I would have had to know everything
that was written about the fall and what
was observed then and in the years
following to have any opinion on the
condition of your left retina now, I’m in
no position to speculate what harm the bleeding did at the time or what the long
term consequences of it are now.

But I don’t think you have anything to
lose by asking the specialist you’ll see to
look into the condition of your left eye
as well as advising you whether or not removing the present intraocular lens
and implanting a more suitable one can improve the vision in your right eye.

And depending on the eye surgeon’s
background, he or she might want a
retinal specialist to examine your left eye.

I don’t know what time your hubby is
getting in this evening, but I hope he’ll
be on time so you won’t have too many
more hours left to wait for him!

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

x

Kalima
Admin

Yes, I’m aware of the difficulty of long distance diagnosis. Must share a story that just happened a few hours ago with a friend who lives in the US, a former RN, who gave me some great advice about my panic of not planning ahead for important medication I must take every day.

It’s the OBon festival here, usually from the 13th to the 15th when people honour their dead. Most places remain open so when I phoned the clinic I go to, imagine my shock when a recorded message said they would be closed until the 19th. Having only enough medication until Friday, I tried to skip a day but by the evening, my BP had shot up. My friend suggested that I cut the dosage in half to keep it in my system and it seems like a great idea.

Hubby is due back tomorrow and two back to back typhoons are making their way to our island. Hope they hold off until he lands.

Rest well tonight.

NoManIsAnIsland
Member
NoManIsAnIsland

Your friend did give you great advice.

And I hope your hubby lands before
the two typhoons reach Japan!

Opie Cat
Member
Opie Cat

Thanks for this Murph! It is so true. Good guys with guns will get shot just like good guys without guns, along with babies, children and women. Time to throw out these fables/myths and get some good gun legislation.