Vox Populi – 9-20-2013

AdLib : Great! Night, Murph!

MurphTheSurf3 : Likely so….ok sending you the email. Over and out. MTS.

AdLib : Murph – I don’t think so, this is a case of the Baggers thinking they can extort him again as they did in 2011. Obama no doubt wants the economy to continue growing and either of these would threaten that.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib..I wonder then if Obama is seeking to provoke them?

AdLib : Night Murph, sleep well!

AdLib : This is why I submit that if the Repubs shut down government briefly, it may be for the best. First, they will get their terrorism out of their system, second, the damage is not as severe as with a debt default, third, the public will turn on them then and prevent them from doing a debt default.

MurphTheSurf3 : Our thoughts as well. Good night for now.

AdLib : Fantastic Murph, I do think a strong campaign to bring home the reality and destruction that lies ahead if they stay on their terrible course is a great way to go. An economic crash following their refusal to raise the debt ceiling would cripple the economy and many of those who survived the last crash so while I think Obama has to remain constrained by the Constitution on what he can do, we can do all that we can to prevent it.

MurphTheSurf3 : what I meant was blanket the district with the flyers AND hit every e mail we can get our hands on

MurphTheSurf3 : I have since spoken with a half dozen others and we are preparing a “what will happen to YOU if the debt ceiling is not raised” faq….I plan to have it done by Monday and will hand deliver it to the District Office with a copy of an order for 5000 copies and a promise to blanket the district’s e mails and local newspapers with it.

AdLib : scenarios

AdLib : Murph – Well done but I fear that these types have the convictions of their ignorance. They are so sure that they are righteous that I wonder if anything can penetrate their commitment to harming the country. Such people rarely think of consequences other than the fantasy scenarioa in their heads.

MurphTheSurf3 : My Congressman is not officially Tea Party but he is closely aligned. I told him that if my retirement savings at damaged by a debt ceiling crisis AGAIN that I would make it my crusade to name everyone working for the Congressman and to pin the losses on them along with their boss. There are a lot of retired people around here. He started to give me some mumbo jumbo but I would not hear any of it. I and my associates have had a sort of truce with him and the Rep. but I told him that this is war.

AdLib : Yes?

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad….I spoke with the Chief of Staff at my Congressman’s district office today….

AdLib : Sounds good, Murph, I will pass it along for you! Have a great weekend and once again, congrats on your remarkable day!

AdLib : Murph – No argument there and on many issues we’ve seen how an ignorant public can be misled. Not in this case though, it is just too blatant, all the talk and quotes from so many Repubs and their supporters about shutting down government and not approving the debt ceiling. There is no way Obama is seen as the one behind the push to stop government spending and freeze the debt ceiling, just the opposite.

MurphTheSurf3 : Well Ad…it is you and I again. I guess time to close shop unless you have something more….I will send you an e mail to forward to Glenn and Choice.

MurphTheSurf3 : Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. H. L. Mencken

AdLib : And if Obama violates the Constitution to stop them, he will be bringing the House down on his head and impeached for sure. He can’t do that, he can’t give Repubs an argument to delegitimize his Presidency AND the ACA in the process.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad…I live in a part of the U.S. that convinces me that Mencken was absolutely on the money.

AdLib : Murph, even Repubs are coming out against this acknowledging that they are the party that’s responsible for what happens. No way this ends up as Obama’s fault in the minds of Americans.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- my fear is that whatever happens will be blamed on Obama and given the incredible stupidity of the public as a whole I wonder if we are better off with him taking them on before they crack the economy.

AdLib : Murph – Nope, “we” aren’t destroying anything and if we could stop them, we would. We’re more like time travelers who know that it’s against the laws of nature to interfere with history, what needs to happen has to happen and would always happen. The Baggers will maintain dominance over the nation if they are not fully exposed as the terrorists they are. Words alone won’t change anyone’s mind, all we can do legally is watch them expose themselves as terrorists to those who support them. Then, we have the opportunity to take their power away, fix the damage they’ve wrought and get the country moving again in the right directions. So…maybe it’s more like recommending judo instead of karate, using their own weight against them to defeat them.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL-+- as you may know I have a blood disorder that does some pretty bad things to me but your chronic condition sounds ghastly.

choicelady : Good night Sabrfeen – I’m seriously on my way now, too. See you soon.

choicelady : Murph – LOL!!! I think the GOP are the ones saying that about the village!!! It’s that village Hillary wrote about that is needed to raise kids – they’ve been after that for DECADES.

Sabreen60 : Well folks I’m out, too. See you later and try to behave

choicelady : Sabren – I am, dear friend, and I AM better. In one purely odd result – I have lost 7 pounds in 5 days. HUGE water retention apparently. Man does that feel better! But the capacity to eat and not have pain? Priceless! I just now have to eat five very very small meals. I can do this. Just so there’s wine…

AdLib : Wow, so sorry to hear you’ve been going through that, CL but I am glad that you have a regiment that can address the effects! Damn pharma companies!

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad and Choice…you guys sound like the Vietnam general who said “We had to destroy the village in order to liberate it.”

Sabreen60 : CL, Please take care of yourself. Do whatever you need to do feel better.

choicelady : AdLib – I agree with your assessment. We may just have to tough this out, but millions will be harmed with no federal money coming in. Despicable!

AdLib : Murph – I think Obama has to let the Baggers complete their destruction because his act of trying to save the nation from them will turn the focus to his violating the Constitution, that is a good deed that would not go unpunished. It is a necessary evil in this case, the Baggers must do their evil now so they will be prevented from doing it in the future…and mainly because the Constitution does not allow The President to stop them.

choicelady : Murph – whatever PBO does, and however legal it MAY be, it will result in an impeachment move. That will be horrible.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL-+- good news on the medical front.

choicelady : Sabreen – the CR is critical, but the debt ceiling is THE issue. They probably want to screw with both.

choicelady : AdLib – it’s a problem of long standing that finally came to a head this past week. If you read the story about the gymnast that was in Sunday’s NY Time magazine – that seems to be my problem, too. I’ve been very consciously working on regaining control over what appears to be frozen diaphragm muscles that were harmed by a sulfa drug in 2000. Exercise, breathing exercises, very, very small meals – and I’m worlds better. Good thing – wine helps! And they say there’s no God… I am LOTS better than I’ve been in years, and with just 6 days of effort. But it’s a lifetime commitment I think. It has been very awful for a very long time.

Sabreen60 : CL, The Repubs could shut the government down by not funding the continuing resolution. Correct? Or they could refuse to raise the debt ceiling. I think they will pass the continuing resolution but may play games with the debt ceiling. Am I confusing something?

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad…ok, there was that…

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice…I wonder if he is going to risk armageddon because he doesn’t have the “legal authority” There is a whole school of thought that the entire idea of a debt ceiling is unconstitutional because it restricts the Executive from doing that which it is obliged to do.

AdLib : Murph – At least we like your suggestion about Songs About Midget Olympians.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib and KT…I am still smarting from your rejection of my offer last week– harmonicas, juice harps and kazoos…

choicelady : Murph – Obama has NO leverage over the House vote. Nothing he can do legally. If he directed the Treasury to pay, impeachment would be the next order of House business. It’s despicable, and it’s all the GOP’s doing.

AdLib : Sorry CL, didn’t know you were under the weather. Hope you’re feeling better over the weekend! Get some rest!

AdLib : Night KT, looking forward to your return at the Music Thread helm!

MurphTheSurf3 : CL…I wonder if Obama has a nuclear option in mind regarding the debt ceiling…..his new tone and stance is one of not taking shit….would he order the Treasury to honor all notes and continue paying the bills?

AdLib : Sabreen – That’s an even scarier proposition, Boehner and the establishment Repubs have been trying to stop the shutdown by turning to the debt ceiling as the real extortion tactic they should use…and that’s like going from an IED to a nuclear explosion. Like their fellow terrorist, they do wnat people scared of what they’ll do and many are prepared to do it. Giving them encouragement are all the ignorant people out there who think raising the debt ceiling is like raising your credit card limit so you can spend more and they oppose it…not understanding that it’s really about paying the bills for what we’ve already bought. They quote polls showing support and feel they have the country behind them.

choicelady : Everyone- I also need to bid adieu. I’ve been having some health problems, now getting under control, but I’m purely exhausted by it all. I’m toddling off to bed at this ingloriously early hour! Hope to see you next week! Be well everyone!

KillgoreTrout : Thank you so much CL. I always value your input.

MurphTheSurf3 : Bye KT= terrific having you aboard the Planet Express tonight

Sabreen60 : Nite KT. Take care.

choicelady : KT – welcome home! We missed you. Glad you had a wonderful time. See you soon.

choicelady : AdLib – I’ve seen no shred of evidence corporations are landing on the GOP at all. I cannot explain that other than investments in hedge funds where you bet AGAINST your nation. I just have not heard a peep out of them. That’s scary!

KillgoreTrout : I too will bid you all adieu! I need to start working on the weekend music thread. Love to all of you.

choicelady : Sabreen – the debt ceiling is how they can shut us down. By NOT passing it, they will destroy our nation’s credit, cause us not to pay bills, and make governance totally impossible save for Social Security and a couple of other mandated expenditures. Horrible. ACA ironically is prefunded through the first of this fiscal year – so they won’t get rid of THAT fast enough to do them any good!

AdLib : CL – I think corporations will throw some weight around with the GOP to stop the shutdown and debt default but I don’t know if it will be enough to stop the Baggers. They have been wanting to blow up government for so long, they’ve been sitting on their political IEDs and are sick and tired of it. I can absolutely see them refusing to change course and run the US economy and the GOP off a cliff.

KillgoreTrout : Have a wonderful weekend glenn. Always nice to chat with you.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL…you are “in” Will do.

Sabreen60 : AdLib, I don’t think they’ll do it now. The debt ceiling is looming, so they just may wait for that.

KillgoreTrout : Sleep tight Homie. Take good care of yourself. We need you here.

choicelady : Murph – I’d like to read more about your time with Obama, too, and AdLib has my email.

MurphTheSurf3 : Good night Glenn. I will ask Ad to send on a more complete version of my Obama experience. You seemed quite interested.

choicelady : Murph – that’s too bad. I hate the idea people don’t want REAL news. But that seems to be the case…

KillgoreTrout : CL, no doubt. I think that president Obama has tried to live up to his belief in our constitution. I think that now he sees that his opponents could care less about that wonderful document.

Sabreen60 : Nite glenn. Take care.

choicelady : AdLib – I am very fearful it will. I do not see Boehner having the balls to be a leader and prevent it. He’d lose his position, and status is more than patriotism to him.

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice…even as a market share on the cable/satellite where they are being carried….low.. .perhaps too serious for U.S. audiences…

AdLib : Night glenn, have a wonderful weekend!

AdLib : SO back to Kes’ question, what do folks here think about the likelihood of a government shutdown? Will it happen or not?

choicelady : glenn – lovely to see you. Sweet dreams!

glenn : Good night Kes.

glenn : Alright folks, time for me to “tune out”. Great conversations tonight, as usual. “See” you all over the weekend, hopefully.

MurphTheSurf3 : Good night Kes…thanks for the conversation.

choicelady : Murph – of COURSE they have low ratings if major cable carriers won’t carry them.

Sabreen60 : Good nite Kes. You have a great week, too!

MurphTheSurf3 : Sab, Ad, Glenn…write them an appreciation note….they need the support…very low ratings at AJ

choicelady : kes – have a SMOOTH weekend. enjoy and rest and heal and all that good stuff!

AdLib : Night Kes, rest well my friend!

choicelady : Murph – I am SO ENVIOUS that you get Al Jazeera! I now have ATT U-verse, and they don’t carry it Many letters are being written to MAKE them put it on with the other news channels. We will see.

kesmarn : Well, kids, I think I may have to sign off for now. Have a wonderful weekend, and fasten your seat belts. I think we’re in for a bumpy ride!

Sabreen60 : Murph, Me too. When I turn on the news – it’s AJM.

AdLib : Murph, I’ve been intending to spend more time on AJA, I have held out hope that they would bring back real journalism to cable news and so far, it seems like they are.

glenn : Murph–I agree about AlJazeera. I quit watching msnbc a while ago–I catch Maddow once in a while–but I am tuning into AJA more and more.

choicelady : KT – the GOP 2009-11 had some OK people. After the Baggers won, it’s been horrible. PBO has actually pulled off some major good stuff even so, but no longer, and he KNOWS the differences. We are not dealing with rational people.

MurphTheSurf3 : AD LIB..I have been impressed by the talent at Al Jazeera AMerica.

KillgoreTrout : I think our president has had enough of trying to be bipartisan. I think his revelation is a few years too late. The GOP said, openly, 4 years ago, that they would work to see president Obama fail. That should have been a pretty solid hint.

choicelady : AdLib – he posted some fact on Twitter, and I replied – See? That wasn’t so hard was it? No reply…

kesmarn : Always has been, c’lady. A totally venal weakling.

AdLib : glenn and Sabreen – Chuck Todd is a no talent hack and establishment tool trying not to be found out as one. Looks like he might have finally blown his cover.

choicelady : kes – you’re right. Cowardice is Boehner’s FIRST name.

Sabreen60 : Murph, I posted the tweet down thread that quoted that “mess with me” line.

kesmarn : glenn, yes. The clock is ticking.

choicelady : Murph – his strength and willingness to call out the extremists is critical to the major part of our nation seeing what is REALLY happening. I’m very happy he’s doing that. Whether Boehner has the cajones to lead as opposed to pretend to do that – we will see.

kesmarn : c’lady, that would be totally consistent for Boehner. Cowardice, that is.

glenn : Kes–the question I have about that is what happens if the “defund Obamacare” bill goes to the Senate–the Senate rejects it–and sends it back to the House. What happens if the House doesn’t pass a budget?

AdLib : Kes – I really don’t know. The buzz on the right is that they will prevent a shutdown but I don’t know that they can really corral in the Baggers the way they think they can. What do you think?

MurphTheSurf3 : I was at the OBAMA RALLY in Liberty Mo. today. Key line: ‘THEY’RE FOCUSED ON TRYING TO MESS WITH ME’ Is Obama throwing down the gauntlet? Is he mad as hell and not taking it anymore? He called Boehner this afternoon to tell him NO DEAL on anything…WAHCA THINK?

choicelady : kes – I seriously think there is a chance that yes, it will. I think Boehner may not let it, but there is too good a chance he will revert to cowardly shit and let the Baggers win.

Sabreen60 : Yeah, but AdLib – do we really want to use the bagger definition for anything. Twitter tore Chuck Todd a new one because he said he was obligated to correct lies. So these people in the media don’t even know the first principle of journalism is to tell the truth. BTW, that article by zizi is somewhat long, but it’s good.

KillgoreTrout : CL, I would have told the smug rich man that intelligence begins when we realize how much we DON’T know. It’s the true source of all investigation.

choicelady : Sabreen – I read that by zizi this morning. BOFFO article!

glenn : Ad–well Chuck Todd DID say that it wasn’t a journalist’s job to put out the facts about Obamacare. That was the president’s job to “sell it”, not the press’s job to give the facts. Mind-boggling.

AdLib : glenn – It’s more important to these types that their beliefs are affirmed rather than they turn out to be accurate or true. So any challenge to them is seen as a personal attack on their values and such insecure people do a kneejerk scramble to affirm their beliefs even more so.

kesmarn : Before I fade out, friends, can I just ask if you think the government really is going to shut down?

choicelady : kes – Cahio works for me!

choicelady : AdLib – I see too much of the media capitulating to phony ‘objectivity’ rather than thoughtful inquiry. Chuck Todd said it’s not their job to promote facts. SAID that this week.

KillgoreTrout : CL, I don’t know. My only “aquaintence,” with Spencer is the quote I provided. It is entirely correct. I see it all the time among RWers. They condemn what they have not learned or studied.

kesmarn : “Calabama”! or perhaps “Cahio”?

Sabreen60 : When you get a chance I recommend this article by “zizi” on TOD site. I think it’s a good read. See what you think: «link»

choicelady : KT – And you can see how all the rich people are ‘superior’ (cough). I asked a rich guy once why money made him smarter than I am. How did he know that just because he had more income I might not have better ideas. He honestly entertained the notion – and had no answer. We are friendly, so it was a nice conversation.

AdLib : glenn – The Bagger definition of a liberal press is a press that doesn’t spout RW propaganda and thinks the truth matters. So that does cover most of the press.

glenn : Ad–because to be a true “believer” you have to suspend facts. Otherwise, you would be fact-based, and your opinion could change. But to believe, really believe, you have to ignore facts.

kesmarn : Here’s that Yale study that was just released along those same lines KT and c’lady: «link»

choicelady : KT – Spencer was correct. Of course wasn’t he the promoter of ‘Social Darwinism’ positing that the rich are rich because they are innately superior? THAT philosophy is back wrapped in Jesus’ salvation and aristocratic privilege today.

AdLib : Kes – A study was out a while ago that showed that the more you confront a “true believer” with facts, the more they dig in their heels against them. As I often say, you can’t use reason to convince someone out of an opinion they didn’t use reason to acquire.

KillgoreTrout : There is a wonderful thought, expressed by Herbert Spencer that says, “There is a bar against all knowledge, and that bar is contempt without prior investigation.”

choicelady : kes – there was a move in CA to do that tax system, too We started calling our state Calabama.

glenn : CL–if we had a liberal press, then that video of Grayson’s questions in the Benghazi hearings would be all over it. That’s another sad thing about right wingers–they truly believe we have a liberal press.

choicelady : kes – that goes back to “When Prophecy Fails” about the 1950s UFO cults. The more their ideas failed, the STRONGER the belief!!! Facts not only did not persuade, they were a negative influence on rationality. Wow.

kesmarn : c’lady, that’s what happened in Ohio. $6000/yr income tax cuts for the wealthy. Increased sales tax. Regressive is the word for it.

choicelady : KT – yes, and they want an aristocracy with them in charge.

choicelady : Murph – WHAT liberal press????

KillgoreTrout : The Libertarians want to take us back to the 1800s.

kesmarn : glenn, there was a study just released today — I think from Yale — that said that very thing. That facts do not change the minds of ideologues like them!

choicelady : kes – sales taxes are what you levy on the poor because the rich can elude them. In AL basics are taxed such as milk but high end hair styles? No taxes. He who controls the tax laws rules the class system. That’s why Marcus wanted Michelle to do tax law. Look where HER head is.

glenn : CL–if they want no federal government, then why do they keep running for office in the federal government?

glenn : Kes–there are many things the right wingers don’t realize–even if you tell them the truth to help them realize it, they won’t listen. That’s the sad thing.

choicelady : Sabreen = the Libertarians want NO federal government. They want private armies free from Constitutional limits to wage war for private corporations. I’m not making this up.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL…they believe their Liberal Press Clippings.

choicelady : Murph – some day we’ll talk about the arrogance of their failed campaign against the death penalty. They totally squandered a GREAT opportunity through sheer arrogance.

kesmarn : glenn, the sad thing is they don’t realize that virtually everyone pays taxes — if only sales taxes!

Sabreen60 : CL, I know they believe in states rights. I thought it was limited government they wanted. Not “no government”.

KillgoreTrout : Be back in a few.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL- It was a phone solicitation. I doubled down with an e mail. No reply. Of course. Arrogant. I have little use for them.

choicelady : glenn – well if you got that nickel, then you’d own property and could vote. They better watch out – you’re gaining on ’em!

choicelady : Murph – did you ever get a reply from ACLU?

glenn : CL–You are right about “property rights over human rights”. If I had a nickel for every time I see a post that says “if you don’t pay taxes, you shouldn’t have the right to vote”, I’d be a rich woman! Well, maybe not rich, but quite comfortable!

choicelady : AdLib – the ACLU is in a group I’m working with on initiative reform, and they refuse to expand democracy with longer times to collect signatures because – I am NOT making this up – it helps people who want to take away people’s rights. So because it MIGHT do that, we will LIMIT democracy. Sure…that makes sense.

KillgoreTrout : Why did they side with the SC on CU? That boggles my mind.

kesmarn : That is it in a nutshell, c’lady. Well said.

MurphTheSurf3 : KT and CL AND that is why I stopped giving to the ACLU….I told them they were too stupid to be trusted with my money…ask the Kochs. I really did.

KillgoreTrout : Ad, “What is hip,” is what the Tower of Power called, “the eternal question.” I think they were right.

choicelady : kes – that is only one of MANY things they wish to eradicate. That’s why the Libertarians are making headway I the GOP – property rights over human rights, human rights reserved to the propertied. They are pernicious.

AdLib : KT – Oh yeah, the ACLU supported Citizens United and since them, they are no longer on my list as the good gguys, they have helped destroy our democracy and I will always oppose them for that.

choicelady : Sabreen – that WAS the issue of the Civil War, and they are still fighting for states’ rights triumphant.

kesmarn : glenn, my sense is that the fed govt is the only force large enough to enforce regulations on predatory capitalism, hence it needs to go away.

glenn : Murph and Kes–Murph, thanks for the link. Kes, yes, I thought Grayson’s questioning was brilliant, too. He was calm, cool, and collected.

choicelady : KT – “Money is free speech”. Swear to god – that IS their reason.

Sabreen60 : CL, Really? You think they don’t want a central government? So every state will be able to do whatever? Geez. Unbelievable.

AdLib : KT – So true, once you start trying to be hip, you come off as artificial and unhip.

choicelady : AdLib – I HOPE that you are correct that the debt ceiling issue will cause the ‘coalition of the absurd’ to disintegrate. Multi-partisan BAR BRAWL!!!

AdLib : Sabreen – yes, saw him give that speech, it was excellent!

KillgoreTrout : CL, I didn’t know that the ACLU had supported CU. What was their reasoning?

glenn : CL–I just don’t get that “no federal government” thingy. It truly makes no sense to me.

choicelady : AdLib – See? Fifth columnists. Even when they’re just being contrarian, they make pacts with the Dark Side to do it.

AdLib : CL – Let’s see what happens with the shutdown/debt ceiling and the 2016 elections, I think the whole Fifth Columnist thing is about to crumble in on itself.

choicelady : Thanks for the links, Murph and Sabreen.

kesmarn : Sabreen, he’s right on that too. They are indeed trying to mess with him.

KillgoreTrout : Ad, trying to be hip, was never hip in the first place.

choicelady : glenn – the Right thinks we should not have a federal government. Good luck to ’em. They get the most money from it.

glenn : Ad–I agree–repubs/tp s make perfect AlQueada models. “How to bring down the American government without firing a shot.” Have these people thought this through? What are they going to do without a federal government?

choicelady : KT – but to hear the RW screaming about NSA, you’d think they had donated to the ACLU. Of course ACLU supported Citizens United, so maybe that is NOT such a stretch…

Sabreen60 : Anyone watch PBO’s speech today. PBO said “They’re focused on messing with me….” I’m not sure this Twitter link will work. «link»

MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn and CL here is Good Grayson doing what he does best: «link»

AdLib : Sabreen – It’s that “hip” thing that media types love to slip into, liking someone who’s the opposite of all they ever talk about. Bill Maher embraced Bush for going to war in Iraq. You see this kind of thing time and again, some questionable liberals thinks it gives them more legitimacy to have an “enemy” that they can say they like at one time or another.

kesmarn : glenn, I saw that vid of Grayson and I must admit, he was brilliant! I don’t always agree with him, to put it mildly,but he was amazing with his questioning of that witness.

KillgoreTrout : Many of the differences between Putin’s government and the GOP are not differences at all. The GOP has no qualms about stepping all over American’s rights. They don’t abide by our wonderful constitution.

choicelady : glenn – OK I will give Grayson credit for doing ONE thing OK. I used to send him money, but he has become a dishonorable lying narcissist, and there will be no more moolah from me.

choicelady : ADLib – the convergence of Libertairans, RW extremists, and EmoProgs is very scary. That is what happened in Spain during the 1930s. Fifth columnists are the most dangerous presence. I am quite concerned at what is growing at home.

glenn : CL–I was EXTREMELY pissed with Grayson over the Syria issue. However, I did come across a video where Grayson is questioning a state department officer regarding Benghazi and he did an excellent job. The state department guy admitted that there was never time to get any other help to Benghazi except the two guys who came from Tripoli. I’ll have to look for the video and post it here on the Planet when I find it.

MurphTheSurf3 : KT Good point

KillgoreTrout : Murph, I did not like McCain’s response to Putin. He merely emphicised the whole American Exceptionalism thing, playing right into Putin’s hands.

choicelady : Sabreen – I had the good fortune to be in Freeport-Lucaya before the hotels arrived = endless beaches, nobody there. My ex father I law was a Episcopal priest who took a church there for the summer in an entirely Black community, so I got to see a whole different side of life from the touristy one. GREAT people – such grinding poverty!

AdLib : glenn – Too true. And the Repubs holding American hostage under an extortion threat to destroy our national economy? Aren’t they more of a role model for Al Qaeda?

MurphTheSurf3 : KT- Putin MAY have been a Marxist but I do not know. I strongly suspect that he is a thorough corporatist today and wants a return to Russian imperial glory.

kesmarn : A classic case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend with the Teabillies and Putin.

AdLib : CL – Emos are like baggers in that their hatred justifies them crossing any and every principle in order to pursue their hatred of Obama. And Emos seem to think the President IS a dictator who can make anything happen that he wants so that’s a connection for them.

choicelady : Murph – it’s like Alan Grayson citing that RW extremist paper on his diatribe against Syrian action. WHAT? McCain can’t be bothered to remember the Communist paper. Grayson made alliance with RW extremists. It’s all down to narcissistic convenience.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL- Putin GOOD because he is opposed to Obama…..

Sabreen60 : Haven’t been to those CL.

KillgoreTrout : That’s quite true glenn. They do not see Obama as “their,” president. They’re still fighting the American Civil War.

MurphTheSurf3 : Did you all read McCain’s op ed in Pravda. It was pretty good (I just had to set the so-called author aside). But what was weird is that McCain did not realize that Pravda today is a distant cousin (and a sad one at that) of the Communist State Paper so not many Russians saw what he wrote (which was never put into print but only on line in English).

choicelady : glenn – back to the Taliban. I TOTALLY agree.

kesmarn : Right, KT. Even when Chavez said that he could smell sulfur at the podium after Dubya had spoken at the UN, I thought it was funny, but didn’t really repeat it too often because it was a bit disrespectful of the office. These RWers have no such compunction when it comes to Pres. Obama.

glenn : KT–The problem is that many of the right wing nut jobs do not see President Obama as “their” president. They say that over and over again. When I remind them that, regardless of who they voted for, if they are American citizens, President Obama is their president just as much as he is mine, they get really pissed off! I just tell them to give up their American citizenship then!

Sabreen60 : I have pretty much no longer watch MSNBC. But I tuned in during Syria and couldn’t believe Chris Hayes was siding with Putin and giving him all the credit.

choicelady : Sabreen – I’ve been to Nassau and Freeport-Lucaya but really did not like them for the incredible poverty and racial barriers. Creeped me out.

AdLib : Sabreen – Of course that’s it, they know Obama wasn’t President when Katrina hit but it shows that Repubs are willing to lie and twost anything and everything to express their hatred of the black President.

KillgoreTrout : Murph, Putin is old school KGB. Communist to the core.

choicelady : Murph – that IS the point. The KGB has listened in on more conversations than almost any groups in the world, and yet the Libertarians and Emos SWEAR Putin is an upholder of civil liberties.

KillgoreTrout : glenn, you just hit the proverbial nail on the head. You are absolutely correct.

KillgoreTrout : Hey kes, I know what you mean. It’s unbelievable, yet it’s not, considering the hatred these scumbags have for their own president. I hated Bush (and still do)but I would never side with a guy like Assad or Putin over my own president.

Sabreen60 : CL, I loved it. Of all the islands I’ve visited, I love Barbados the most.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL…Putin is not Communist KGB but he is Nationalist KGB….KGB is the key.

glenn : AdLib and KT–The right wing has more in common with the Taliban and the Muslim extremists than they do with Americans.

choicelady : AdLib – that IS the connection, yes indeed. But how do the Emos deal with it?

choicelady : Sabreen – I see the lure of Barbados. I seriously do.

AdLib : KT – Then again, doesn’t the GOP and TP have more in common with an anti-gay, brutal dictator who rigs elections?

choicelady : KT – Oh Putin’s not a commie anymore. He wears a cross on his manly bare chest. He support civil liberties, right? (Do NOT bring up LGBT people or Pussy Riot or the opponents who mysteriously died of implanted nuclear material. Just a freaking coincidence, y’know…)

Sabreen60 : CL, I am so glad I live in MD. Because honestly, if I didn’t I probably would have given up on this country and moved to Barbados.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad…I admire the state. I just find CA sooooo complex. It is the size of a nation and just as diverse.

glenn : KT–I, too, cannot get over the right wing nut jobs falling all over Putin. Can you imagine if the Democrats were saying how great Putin, the communist is? I did tell one stupid fuck on HP that we now know where the communists in Congress are–all those repubs lovin’ on Putin!

kesmarn : KT, the other thing I’m hearing is a defense of Assad from the RW! Unbelievable. Well…no it’s not actually.

AdLib : Murph – CA has its liberal bastions like LA and SF but we also have some very rural and RW areas in the eastern and southern parts of the state. I will give props though to the state for having gay marriage, $10/hr minimum wage in a few years and drivers licenses for undocumented immigrants. Not bad at all!

choicelady : kes – I know. The numbers of seriously unwrapped people has escalated exponentially even in CA. Good thing he did NOT do anything more than stalk off!

KillgoreTrout : CL, that is creepy indeed. These assholes who have been calling Obama a communist for years now, are suddenly siding with a real communist. They are completely stupid.

choicelady : Sabreen – PBO was a freshman Senator in 2005. Next they’ll blame Pearl Harbor on him because, after all, he WAS born in Hawaii, right? So what if it was 20 years later…

kesmarn : “corrected” not “correct”

kesmarn : c’lady, the store employees were nervous even when I correct him on the Kasich issue. You could tell they were afraid he’d snap (even further).

choicelady : KT – both the Emos AND the RW support Putin in order to deny what Obama accomplished. When you have one goal – discrediting the Black Man in the White House, you find these odd and creepy alliances.

Sabreen60 : AdLib, call me naive. But I think anyone who blames PBO for Katrina is just flat out lying to whomever asked the question. I think the hatred for PBO is so strong that maybe they just say “yeah I blame him”. They blame him for everything.

choicelady : Murph – I know. I work it. Drives me bonkers.

choicelady : AQdLib – to Tea Party member – TMI…WAAAAAAY too much info.

kesmarn : And I’m pretty sure he caused that tsunami is Japan, too.

KillgoreTrout : What has really struck me as proof of the RW nut bags being bad for America is their support of Putin over their own president. They really believe Putin is more “American,” than Obama. They are utterly malleable by the RW talking heads. Disloyal fucks, is what they are. Pardon my French.

choicelady : kes – possibly better you did not. He may have figured out it WAS you and come after you. He will show himself. That sort of loudmouth is NOT usually a ‘lone wolf’ type. He’s probably already under surveillance…

MurphTheSurf3 : CL…Love you of California but your state is one of the most difficult to figure out….three or four very distinctive cultures and a political landscape that boggles the mind.

AdLib : TEA PARTY MEMBER: “I blame Obama for 9/11, Miley Cyrus acting like a stripper and my embarrassingly small penis. Especially that last thing.”

glenn : Ad–I know; I found it interesting also. The article was written by a dual Canadian/America n citizen who has actually researched the issue of renouncing Canadian citizenship.

kesmarn : c’lady, later it occurred to me that I should have gotten his vehicle license plate number.

choicelady : glenn – that is about as funny as it gets. Prove you’re Canadian so you can renounced BEING Canadian to prove you’re a U.S citizen. Yikes. Soap opera time!

kesmarn : Murph, the words you mentioned were almost verbatim what he said, with a threat thrown in.

choicelady : kes – yup. If you’d had an inkling of who he is, he probably should be reported. I no longer give that stuff a pass. But you do NOT know, so it keeps you safe!

kesmarn : glenn, very interesting. I did not know that.

MurphTheSurf3 : Kes- your crazy in the auto parts store could hang with my crazies very easily.

choicelady : Murph – I can appreciate that. I give thanks every day I live in CA where the weird extremism is manageable. CA is NOT actually very progressive in many ways, but it’s not as horrifyingly weird as MO. I appreciate my benefits.

glenn : CL–I didn’t explain it too well, but it does have to do with the timing of when Cruz’s mother moved to Canada. If she hadn’t been living in the U.S. for 10 consecutive years (after her 14th birthday) BEFORE little Rafael was born, then HE is not considered a “natural” U.S. citizen. He doesn’t get citizenship just because his mother is a U.S. citizen. IMO, the irony of this situation is not that the U.S. is asking him to prove his U.S. citizenship, but Canada is, before he can renounce his Canadian citizenship.

kesmarn : It was a little scary, c’lady. He made loud and specific threats against the President.

KillgoreTrout : Sabreen, that sounds about par for the course.

AdLib : Murph – Don’t forget about the poll in Louisiana where a majority of Repubs blamed Obama for Katrina. The haters in the GOP are mindless and just plain stupid. You can’t look for reasoning, they don’t use it to come to their twisted views.

choicelady : Kes and Murph – your folks are seriously weird!

MurphTheSurf3 : CL- Your teeth hurt- my head aches over it all.

Sabreen60 : KT, Twitter was going off on some guy on Hardball, so I turned to Chris. The guy was a Repub Rep from TX. Man, he twisted himself in all kind of knots when Chris asked him Cruz is eligible to run for Prez what was the problem with Obama. The guy was a total moron.

KillgoreTrout : If the TPGOPers do shut down the government, if only partially, they will lose big time come 2014 mid terms.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- You capture the dynamic here well. ANY price is worth paying if that N****R in the WHITE House can be brought low. AND he is a Commie Muslim…all said with real depth of conviction.

choicelady : KT – one birther said they don’t think of Canada as a foreign country. What she MEANS is that it predominantly white. That PBO was born IN the U.S. cannot be accepted if the point is to get rid of the Black guy.

kesmarn : I was at the auto parts store this past week (new battery) and there was a guy in there having a loud, furious rant (almost all of it unrepeatable) at the President over the fact that the Ohio sales tax has gone up. This was Repub Kasich’s doing! I informed him of that fact and was very fortunate. He left instead of pulling out his concealed carry!

choicelady : All – well, as we are now trying to do with presentations on health care, we have to remind people that ONE HOUSE does not make policy. The one thing the GOP extremists CAN do is shut down the gov’t on not validating the debt ceiling. But if we get THERE, we will have more problems with EVERYTHING than we can now imagine.

AdLib : Very interesting, glenn. Now I am quite interested to see how Cruz’s citizenship bears out…and if Orly Taitz will be hounding him.

KillgoreTrout : The fact still remains, that Cruz was not born here. A little fact that should resonate with all the birthers.

MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen This part of the state is close enough to St. Louis to have had some Dem influence but not much.

choicelady : Murph – that kind of idiocy just makes my teeth hurt.

KillgoreTrout : Hey Sabreen, glad you could make it!

AdLib : Murph – That is the irony and amazing disconnect, folks in your community are so cemented in their thinking, many are literally voting to have their lifelines cut off. For what? What would they get out of it that would make going hungry a fair price to pay? Destroying the black President’s legacy? Really, that makes any sense?

Sabreen60 : You’re welcome Kes.

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- they blame O for everything bad. I bet if I were to push it this is the kind of answer I would get: “Obama let so many freeloaders on to Food Stamps there is not enough for those of us who deserve it.” Bizarre and stupid.

choicelady : glenn – wow. That’s so complicated my eyes rolled into the back of my head. Amazing. Hope he loses!

kesmarn : Sabreen, that Jonathan Chait article is great. Thanks!

Sabreen60 : Murph, No nothing about denying food or health care to anyone is funny. Have the people in your district always voted Repub?

glenn : CL–The problem seems to have to do with renouncing his Canadian citizenship. When he was born, his mother just put on his Canadian birth certificate that she was a U.S. citizen. However, in order to renounce Canadian citizenship, you have to show that you are going to be a citizen of another country–i.e. you can’t be a “stateless person.” So Cruz might have to prove his mother’s U.S. citizenship–and the date of his birth may not make him a U.S. citizen because of the law about U.S. citizens having to have actually been in the U.S. for 10 years consecutively from her 14th birthday. This issue kind of came up with the President’s mother, too. Anyway, it’s pretty complicated.

choicelady : Murph – HOW can they blame Obama for SNAP cuts? HOW???

KillgoreTrout : glenn there are mixed feelings I think. Mass does have it’s share of very wealthy “care nots.” Those who see the poor and disadvantaged as creating their own problems by not “pulling themselves up by their ‘boot straps’.

MurphTheSurf3 : I find NONE of this funny. The evil, downright evil, in the GOP’s dark hearts is horrifying. Perhaps because I live in a Red state in a County that votes unflinchingly for the GOP and then gets ROYALLY SCREWED by the GOP time after time after time. IF the GOP SNAP reduction were to happen- thousands in my county will be hit by it. AND they curse Obama!

choicelady : glenn – if the media were comparing Obamacare to Romneycare, you’d see a HUGE difference. I HATE Romneycare for many reasons. Obamacare is massively better, far more affordable, and focuses on being affordable for people not just reducing costs to the government.

AdLib : CL – Oh yeah, I know we have a lot of cross-dressers on the Repub side, ask Lindsay Graham about his wardrobe. And he’s as dirty as they come when it comes to his political hypocrisy and war mongering, that will never wash off.

choicelady : Sabreen – always good to see a man who can snatch defeat from the jaws of, well, whining. Cruz is sinking to his natural level.

AdLib : glenn – That would be interesting though from all I’ve heard, his mother is American so that would give him instant citizenship no matter where he was born. And I really want him to run in the 2016 primary, that will be so great for the Dems!

choicelady : kes – nah. Sorority women are far more cultured than the GOP.

glenn : KT–I’ve never understood why the so-called liberal press isn’t all over MA interviewing people about Obamacare–origi nally romneycare. Don’t the people in MA love the program?

Sabreen60 : This kinda funny, but kinda sad. Cruz is an idiot. «link»

KillgoreTrout : Delta House vs Chi Omega!

choicelady : glenn – Wow – had not heard that his US citizenship was in trouble. It should not be since his mum was a citizen. What’s the problem? If he ever VOTED in Canada, he could be in deep doo doo but anything else?

AdLib : Kes – King is a racist, atni-Muslim hater so maybe he’s jealous Cruz has stolen the Intolerance Crown from him?

kesmarn : GOP civil war = Sorority house slap fest?

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- And HE would value that and praise you for it.

choicelady : AdLib – too many of the MALE GOP mud wrestlers wear ties by day and heels by night. If they’d come clean on ALL levels, we’d have a much kinder world.

KillgoreTrout : Yeah, that was pretty much a fluke. The people are a bit different than their elected leaders. Like in most governments.

glenn : Ad–saw an article today that says Cruzie boy may have trouble proving his American citizenship, too. Couldn’t happen to a “nicer” (not) guy.

kesmarn : Sabreen, right you are. King recognizing Cruz as a fraud sure didn’t enlighten him to the fact that he is too!

choicelady : Murph – that does not happen often. GREAT leaders are scarce and rare. He is one of them. I work for a highly NON partisan organization that does advocacy but never campaigns. So I could do almost nothing for him – except keep the message and the work alive. I still am.’

AdLib : CL – Hmm…there are a lot of allegories for the GOP internal battle…how about a mud wrestling fight in high heels?

choicelady : KT – except when MA voters wig out and elect Romney…

KillgoreTrout : CL, Mass is such a progressive state, in many ways.

choicelady : AdLib – some of us have decided the GOP is not having a civil war but a bar brawl and lovin’ it every inch of the way.

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice “worth wrapping your life around” wonderful. A keeper.

choicelady : Sabreen – LOVE yours, too. Nice to see a ‘familiar avatar’ as well.

Sabreen60 : Kes, Yeah I heard King call Cruz a fraud. But King still voted to shut down the gov’t and defund “Obamacare”.

AdLib : Kes – Yep, saw the video! Repubs with the knives out for Cruz? How can you not love it? That con men pushed his BS way too far and is sabotaging himself from every direction. Couldn’t happen to a sleazier guy.

choicelady : KT – Wish I were there. LOVE Mass in general, Cape I particular.

MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn- I just told Choice that a lot of what I do is out direct loyalty to Barack…and that includes being an ACA Navigator.

choicelady : Murph – I can very much appreciate your loyalty. I have something of the same feeling even though I never actually MET him. Something there – something different, worth wrapping your life around…

KillgoreTrout : Yes CL, that she is. The Cape is so beautiful in the early fall. We had perfect weather. Low 70s most of the time.

Sabreen60 : Heh. I so enjoy reading your comments, CL.

glenn : Hi Sabreen!

AdLib : Hey Sabreen!

choicelady : Sabreen! Lovely to see you here as well as over ‘there’.

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- fun and a bond that committed me in ways that I never imagined. A lot of what I do her in Redland is out of loyalty to him and his causes.

kesmarn : So I read that Peter King (R) called Ted Cruz (R) “a fraud.”

AdLib : CL – Daughter has a friend over and they’re running around the house getting crazy with the pup chasing them around. So no, no distractions at all.

Sabreen60 : Hi Folks! GOPerment Shut Down!

glenn : Murph–And now you’re out working helping people figure out Obamacare. You’re a good man, Charlie Brown.

choicelady : kes – you’re our walking case study for soshulism.

choicelady : KT – that’s superb! She’s on Cape Cod if I remember that right?

kesmarn : I’m closing in on that $6 million figure (well — not quite, but…) Thank God for soshulism.

choicelady : AdLib – have you been in the margaritas already? You never make typos!

MurphTheSurf3 : Kes….I was…I worked the campaign from March 2007 on. We had nothing and everyone assumed we had no chance. SC was very important – it made the campaign real.

KillgoreTrout : Pretty darn good CL. Just got back from a great vacation to see my mom. 84 and still kicking.

choicelady : What fun, Murph – those are the kinds of campaign moments that are priceless.

AdLib : “Deductible” that is.

glenn : Kes–well…if you have a bionic arm, who needs tinfoil?

MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn- I had to deliver an envelope with the final text of his Jefferson Jackson speech in Columbia SC to his hotel room. He answered the door and “we had a moment”. A year later at another SC event we had another moment that confirmed the first one. I also cued him to remember “Envelope-Marri ott-Columbia”

AdLib : Kes – You could change your handle to “The Six Million Dollar Woman…With a One million Deductable”.

choicelady : hi glenn!

kesmarn : glenn, see above!

choicelady : KT – things are OK – how about with you?

choicelady : Murph! That’s a wonderful story. I never met him, but I sat about 20 feet away when he made his speech at the CA Dem Convention in 2008 – it was then that I became convinced this was someone important to follow and support.

kesmarn : AdLib — that left arm is so bionic that would actually work!

glenn : Kes–maybe you might need a tinfoil hat?

KillgoreTrout : Hey CL, long time no see! I hope all is well.

glenn : Hi CL–good to “see” you, too.

AdLib : Kes – Just keep your left arm up as the wifi antenna and you should be fine.

kesmarn : So Murph — you were there in the “Fired up!” “Ready to go!” days?

choicelady : Hi AdLib!

choicelady : kes – that proof that the whole world is NOT wired is actually comforting.

KillgoreTrout : Yeah Ad, she’s still going strong at the tender age age of 84. Hard to slow her down.

glenn : Murph–that’s amazing that President Obama remembered you. You really are a memorable person!

AdLib : Hey CL!

kesmarn : Doing well, friends. On the shaky connection at the cottage, so if I vanish don’t call 9-1-1.

choicelady : Hi everyone – good to see so many wonderful people here.

MurphTheSurf3 : kes…I did and, the big story, he remembered our having met twice in SC when he was really a nobody. I was very much involved in what looked like a quixotic campaign.

glenn : Hi Kes–all is well with you?

AdLib : Hey Kes! Evenin’ to ya!

KillgoreTrout : Hey Homie, how goes it?

AdLib : KT – Sounds like a really great time! Glad you got to spend that time with her and in such a wonderful place.

glenn : KT–Likewise–ni ce to hear you had a good visit with your mom.

kesmarn : Good Friday evening, Planet peeps! So Murph — you got to shake the Presidential hand, did you?

MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn. He is. I have a framed picture of him and Michelle on my desk next to my family. I met him twice in SC when all of this was just starting. It is a longish story but it is this contact that sealed the deal for me.

KillgoreTrout : Hey glenn, good to “see,” you again.

AdLib : Think of it, we really have the GOP in a heated civil war with itself, on the verge of destroying their own party through that and forcing a government shutdown…could be worse.

KillgoreTrout : Hey Ad. Glad to be back. Got back in the big C Monday night. Had a wonderful visit with the mom. on Cape Cod. Truly beautiful place, and the best early autumn weather.

glenn : Hi KT–how are you? More like government shakedown, I think.

AdLib : KT – GOPerment meltdown, I’d call it!

glenn : Murph–O.k., I have to ask. Is he as genuine as he seems to be?

MurphTheSurf3 : glenn. I did.

AdLib : Hey KT! Welcome back to Vox!

glenn : Murph–how cool! You met the Prez personally?

KillgoreTrout : Hey Planeteers, Hi ya. Is it government shut down, or government hose down?

glenn : Ad–Well, the weather is nice–as for the political climate–I do live in GA!

MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn…I was at the rally at Liberty Mo. today and got to meet Barack….again.

AdLib : glenn – Sounds very nice there! Finally, we’ve had a stubborn heat wave for months out here with only a brief respite.

glenn : Hey Murph–What’s the story?

MurphTheSurf3 : I do. When?

glenn : Ad–A little cooler here in GA too. It’s actually beautiful weather–70’s in the day; 60’s at night. Very nice!

AdLib : Evening Murph! You’ve got a story to tell tonight!

MurphTheSurf3 : Good evening.

AdLib : Hey glenn, doing very well this evening, cooled down here in LA. How are you?

glenn : GOPerment shutdown, indeed, Ad. How are you?

AdLib : Don’t forget to say “Hi!” or “GOPerment Shut Down!” when you arrive!

AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. Hope to see you then!