AdLib : Patsy – They don’t think like that. They live in such denial, I’d bet these types don’t even allow themselves to think about why their family member got cancer.
PatsyT : Nighty Night alll ….
PatsyT : They have been brainwashed be the same crap. What will they do when one of their family has cancer…
AdLib : Well Patsy, guess it’s time to wrap Vox for the night. Have a great weekend, same to hubby. Looking forward to seeing more of you here!
PatsyT : AdLib it is true they are a new breed.
AdLib : Night KT! Looking forward to this weekend’s music thread!
PatsyT : Nighty Night KT !!!
AdLib : Patsy – There is something kind of deviant about those who are rabidly pro-nuke/pro-fos sil fuels. I mean, what would it matter to them in their actual lives if their energy came from renewable sources? They are afraid of change and hateful soldiers for the RW and their corporate bosses.
KillgoreTrout : Well folks, I too must retire for the evening. Have a great weekend.
AdLib : Patsy – They use PsyOPS people from the military to brainwash and disarm the public from stopping them…and are told to treat Americans like the people in the countries the US invades. This is some seriously evil stuff.
AdLib : Been thinking about writing an article about how sinister the NG push is. The first stage is drilling everywhere and making the country dependent on cheap natural gas. Once that happens, Step 2 is hiking up the price and shipping supplies out of the US so supplies are low and prices are high. Step 3 is to own water rights and sell what used to be public water supplies for high prices once the groundwater is contaminated by fracking. When you have a growing population in this nation whose water supply is contaminated, imagine the scarcity of water and the skyrocketing price of it. A very evil plan.
PatsyT : I battled many a pro nuker on the local newspaper threads they are are a sick bunch.. how sad that these folks think this is a path for them .
PatsyT : AdLib.. I saw the same doc. .. how fascinating they used the same techniques that the tobacco companies used . Oil Coal Frack Gas and Of course NUKES all the same PR approach
KillgoreTrout : Something is definitely wrong when you can use a garden hose as a flame thrower. Holy Shyte.
AdLib : Check out this trailer for Gasland 2: «link»
KillgoreTrout : Amusement Park Temporarily Closed?
KillgoreTrout : Ragtime in the Canyon?
AdLib : Patsy – Watched Gasland 2 on HBO this week, talk about something toxic and widespread that’s spreading wildly, fracking for natural gas is Evil with a capital E.
PatsyT : Black and Yellow skull and crossbones
PatsyT : AdLib they should have…
AdLib : Patsy – Did they wear shirts with skulls and crossbones on them?
PatsyT : I hope to be here more often too AdLib… That crap really sucked the life out of me for a few years… The nuke people are TOXIC beyond reckoning
AdLib : Have a great weekend Funk and beware of letting them give you a makeover!
KillgoreTrout : Good point Ad.
AdLib : KT “Ragtime”? Hilarious!!!
AdLib : KT – I’m thinking more of the unmarried women in the GOP, they would seem to be much more affected by all of this.
funksands : Ad, yes! Now Patsy and subsequent 12 generations of family will concentrate on the waste from the plant.
KillgoreTrout : Have a great time funk.
AlphaBitch : Glare back, Funk! But don’t look ’em in the eyes. Night night all.
AdLib : Patsy – Hope we’ll see more of you here now that you’ve defeated Big Nuke!
funksands : Folks, I’ve about burnt out also. My now-9 year old has a friend over for a sleep-over and I am getting glared at. Have a wonderful weekend!
AdLib : AB – Brilliant! That’s more than 60 people you and the Blov will help vote, very cool!
PatsyT : vOh yes funk that eternal gift that keeps on giving
KillgoreTrout : I didn’t say that, did I?
KillgoreTrout : Ad, Jazz Time Rag?
AdLib : Night AB! We may have to have a parody thread on tampon inspired songs!
funksands : Patsy: Oh yeah….that.
AlphaBitch : Just an FYI: Cafe Press has a whole line of “bacon” tee shirts. Got one for my hard headed Pashtun boy that says: Come to the dark side. We have bacon…..
KillgoreTrout : Ad, the sad thing about republican wives is that they are the victims of their husband’s mind control tactics.
PatsyT : Hey funk, I have lots to catch up on you know life and fun and … …now I spend my time reading up on this shi### «link»
AdLib : Night glenn! Have a great weekend!
AdLib : AB – Good to hear, that could be a trend! Women in the GOP really have to reassess at this point what world they want for their daughters. If their daughter is raped, should she be forced to have the baby? Really? It’s not her decision to make, it’s up to old white men in the legislature?
AlphaBitch : $15/head, Adlib. And I’m talking some friends into anteing up too. We can be drivers and funders. I have unlimited DMV patience, having had to get IDs for the chirren. I know a secret to getting it done ASAP
funksands : Patsy, what are doing with all of your free time since you’ve saved California from nuclear annihilation?
KillgoreTrout : Patsy, it’s from the scene where the Dude goes to see Maude and she looks at him and says VAGINA, hoping for a reaction. Her thought being that men were afraid of the word. Funny scene.
AdLib : Night Murph! Sleep well!
AlphaBitch : Night cold tator.
AdLib : AB – you and the Blov rock! That is fantastic! At this point, without the VRA to stop these voter ID oppression laws, the focus does have to turn to getting IDs for those who would have trouble doing so. And $1,000 will help a lot of people with that!
funksands : Night Glenn, Night Agitator
KillgoreTrout : Sleep tight glenn.
AlphaBitch : Perzactly AdLib. They’re a bunch of Zimmermans, thinking they are all tough with their guns. There’s a whole fuckin’ mob of people ready to kick ass, so good luck.
PatsyT : Tampon Revolution … oh yes its time
AdLib : Night Sabreen! Take care!
AdLib : AB – Hate to say it but to have a real social revolution, and we need one, there have to be a number of outrageous acts by Repubs in power to whip people up. And as if on cue, that’s what they are doing with their Voter ID, anti-abortion, anti-immigration crap.
AlphaBitch : Love you guys. Think of us in TEXAS when next you see a Tampon………. …
PatsyT : KT which scene?
KillgoreTrout : Have a great weekend Murph.
glenn : Okay, folks, I’m next. Good night.
AlphaBitch : Night,Murph. I’m right behind ya. I have a whole friggin’ weekend off! Whoo hoo…..
KillgoreTrout : Patsy, that reminds me of a scene in the movie The Big Lebowski.
AlphaBitch : Ad – I heard from a VERY reliable source that Repub WOMEN from Dallas are up in arms.
glenn : Night Murph. Sleep well.
PatsyT : Oooo Sabreen Sorry for the mis spelling
KillgoreTrout : Sweet dreams Sabreen.
AlphaBitch : …oh it was a fighting ladypart! (To the tune of “Jim Bowie, Jim Bowie, Jim Bowie, oh he was a fighing man” a song known by TX schoolchildren my age)
KillgoreTrout : Or logic.
funksands : Night Murph
KillgoreTrout : Ad, quite true. I guess I can’t expect fanatics to employ reason.
AdLib : AB – True but you know that the loyal Repub voters in TX are majority white males so my thought was just that there are many women Repubs who may jump ship after this.
MurphTheSurf3 : Sorry guys I am falling asleep at the keyboard….earl y mornings are doing me in….night all.
PatsyT : Nighty Night Sabreem!
PatsyT : Vagina Vagina Vagina ….
glenn : Nite Sabreen.
KillgoreTrout : I think the Elephant’s Graveyard will be filled to capacity in the next ten years.
AlphaBitch : STAY sane, Sabreen? Shirley, you jest!
funksands : Night Sabreen
Sabreen60 : It is the bewitching hour. So until we meet again, stay sane. Nite y’all.
AdLib : KT – And they can’t sustain their PR BS for long anyway, they just hate too much. Remember after Obama’s re-election how Repubs were all conceding immigration reform had to be approved by Repubs? Now look at them, they will alienate women and minorities for generations!
AlphaBitch : Ad – and BGTX will be calling them. Blov and I are donating $1000 out of pocket to take anyone who needs an ID (close to the election) to the DMV to get one. We’ll drive.
funksands : AB: Word
AlphaBitch : I truly do believe that there IS a big class war starting up. And I say: Damn time.
AdLib : AB – Very encouraging to hear that. I think that as the 2014 elections grow, the polarity will intensify and many more women who weren’t voting Dem, will be.
Sabreen60 : Talk about dysfunctional. Red state legislatures doing the crazy and Repubs in Congress is right along with them. Denying students a lesser interest rate; no immigration bill, etc etc. Boehner is truly pathetic.
AlphaBitch : Lots of guys are showing up, too Ad. Texas men can strong with TX women. It’s an insult to anyone with a BRAIN, not just a vagina.
funksands : Glenn, that’s good news
AdLib : AB – What would be interesting would be if younger women, who are hit the hardest by these laws, join together and tell their boyfriends, “No sex unless you help us vote out these women-haters!” Even the most right wing guys would have to give in!
AlphaBitch : Luchador matches. Lowrider festivals. And take time to tell them WHY there is no head start, why food stamps are being discontinued. S
glenn : AB–I read today that OFA, in this second quarter, has doubled the money raised in the first quarter. So, it’s not just women getting riled up. Sure hope Dems/Progressive s/Independents show up to vote in mid-term elections. We need to overcome gerrymandering.
KillgoreTrout : AD, the GOPTP just doesn’t get it. They can make their platform as PC as they want, they just don’t understand that it’s their actions that people take note of.
funksands : AB, they know that long-term they’re doomed. They are frantically passing everything they can because they know that most of this bullshit will get repealed as they get voted out of office. But what remains behind leaves legal claw-holds for future bullshit.
AlphaBitch : Ad – BGTX does. ONE group got 250 new voters at a concert. We were hitting 4th of July events and concerts heavily.
AlphaBitch : I think women need to pull a Bizarro World sexual revolution, and shut that whole thing down.
funksands : Sabreen, yes. And the Heritage folks. It’s really brilliant what they’ve done. In an evil genius way of course. A very very very small group of right wingers and their interns have created the perfect packaging for the ultra-right to pop open and set up. Who wants to be burdened with writing laws and debating them. Just hand them a LRE (Law Ready-to-Eat) and watch them go.
AdLib : AB – That’s what it seems, like this latest overreach will once again backfire on them and give energy and defections over to Dems opposing these anti-woman laws. DOn’t you think this legislated misogyny might hasten a Dem takeover in TX?
KillgoreTrout : AB, I love it. Did you get a lot of candy?
KillgoreTrout : Ad, and they have the nerve to call Obama a Maoist.
KillgoreTrout : Patsy, indeed I did.
PatsyT : ADLib I think they would celebrate that sort of thing
KillgoreTrout : AB, true, it could have been much worse.
AlphaBitch : Funk – I just don’t understand the herd mentality. This will rile up women over the whole damn country, and not every state is as badly gerrymandered as TX
Sabreen60 : Funk, ALEC?
AdLib : Patsy – I’m willing to try that…as long as they have coed dressing rooms.
funksands : All of these legislatures are following a script. It’s the same law down to the exact wording repackaged and passed in a different state. Sociopaths have no problem doing that because its simply the most efficient means to an end.
KillgoreTrout : funk, never did like my in-laws. That’s part of the reason I got divorced, many moons ago.
AdLib : KT – Absolutely, just waiting for Fox to begin a Bagger version of The Mao Tse-Tung Hour. Whoops, that’s what they do 24/7!
PatsyT : KT you had some creative pals
AlphaBitch : KT – true story. I once wore a white leotard and tights with the top half – and a beenie -dyed red and went to a Halloween party as a tampon. In Houston. And at least it was tied to your FINGER
Sabreen60 : I’m right across the river from VA and the Gov & legislature have lost their minds. If fact, it all Red states the teabaggers are insane.
funksands : KT, I guess that’s better than waking up the morning after visiting your in-laws….
funksands : All these bills have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with power.
KillgoreTrout : AB, I once woke up the morning after a wild party, completely naked with a tampon tied to my finger. With red Magic Marker on it.
glenn : Funk–They’re not banning cameras from the legislature because they’re afraid of losing their souls. They’re banning cameras from the legislature because they hate to see their idiocy played over and over again in the social media as well as the MSM.
PatsyT : OK all men, I dare you to show up here and try on a few items .. «link»
AlphaBitch : Ad – no, they like people looking into the lady bits so that they can keep on breedin’ those geniuses like Gohmert.
AdLib : Funk – Glad to hear though that instead of funding public schools, they’re building an enormous ark.
AlphaBitch : Perhaps those males doing transvaginal probes should experience a transpenile probe in return???
KillgoreTrout : Ad sure is Ad. Shades of “Network.” I know you love that movie too.
funksands : Ad: No, but they are banning cameras from the legislature because they’re afraid that they’ll lose their souls.
KillgoreTrout : glenn, unless they’re from Fredrick’s of Hollywood.
AlphaBitch : What the hell are patny hose???
glenn : KT–I know–that’s exactly what I thought, too about personal responsibility. However, it does fit right in with the Adam and Eve thingy and Eve “leading” Adam into sin. Where’s choice lady when we need her?
PatsyT : Glenn… thats it! I will werer my panty hoe round the clock and I will be safe
AdLib : Any truth to the rumor that Repubs in TX want to outlaw gynecology as witchcraft?
AlphaBitch : Patsy: I once had to go onboard a ro-ro ship to interview sailors. When I asked my friend what I should wear, she replied: Crotchless pantyhose?? And I once did a dance at a wedding wearing patny hose on my head.
KillgoreTrout : glenn if that’s not the height of insanity, then I don’t what is. Of course the man can’t have the responsibility to control himself. This from the party of “personal responsibility. “
AdLib : KT – With this trial almost over, you know that the Dzhokhar trial will move to the MSM’s front burner. Kind of depressing that the public can be so tunnelvisioned by the MSM like this.
glenn : Patsy–can’t get a vaginal probe through panty hose!
PatsyT : More men need to try the panty hose thing
PatsyT : Next they will infiltrate our panty hose… now that is where I draw the line…
AlphaBitch : I keep saying – he REALLY wants to be U.S. Atty General. Trust me on this one. If someone else (as equally dim witted – Bueller?) can become Pres and appoint him, he’d have a Ted Dream.
MurphTheSurf3 : Thanks AB
AdLib : AB and Murph – Happy to send it along!
glenn : KT–And the SC of Iowa has just ruled that a woman can be fired for being too attractive to her employer.
MurphTheSurf3 : REGARDING CRUZ….watch Good Night and Good Luck and see how close Cruz is to McCarthy.
funksands : I keep seeing AB circling the Ted Cruz supporter from above in a helicopter like Marlin Perkins….
AlphaBitch : I’ll let you know via email to AdLib, Murph. Don’t want to share on public site. NSA, you are welcome to it.
KillgoreTrout : Speaking of trials, Massachusetts has three high profile trial going on now. Whitey Bulger, Hernandez and Zokar.
PatsyT : That poor Gov Perry could use some spice.. The Perry Pad !! The Ted Tampon … Ladies will love it!
AdLib : Get it through your head, Tampon Ted!
funksands : Worthy effort Glenn. LOL
AlphaBitch : The Lady is a Tamp.
MurphTheSurf3 : AB…why did you spend so much time with a Cruz supporter…seri ously…I spend so much time with those on the opposite side of my own world view that such encounters interest me.
glenn : Ted-a-tamp Cruz-a-ton?
AlphaBitch : Ding Ad! winner!
AdLib : Tampon Ted!
AlphaBitch : Oops. Tampick Perry
funksands : Tampapult
AlphaBitch : Glenn – that’s Tapicks.
AdLib : AB – Tampullets?
glenn : Patsy–how about Perrytons?
funksands : «link»
AlphaBitch : Did you send some naughty shot again, Funk?
PatsyT : Ted Tampon Cruz
funksands : Whoa! That didn’t quit turn out right! Oops.
AlphaBitch : Oatsy: Ted Crupon?
glenn : AB–Love it!
PatsyT : Lets name all tampons after Ted Cruz
funksands : AB:«link» trimshot.com
AlphaBitch : I know where I would “hide” my ‘pon.
AlphaBitch : glenn: Tampedos!
AdLib : AB, I wonder…could protestors attend the legislature with little tampons in their guns instead of bullets? Who would question or check???
KillgoreTrout : AB, exactly.
glenn : Funk–Stay in your truck and arm yourself with tampons!
funksands : My wife lived just outside of Sanford for years. She was decidedly not shocked that this happened there.
AlphaBitch : KT – because he’s a big pussy??
KillgoreTrout : Another thing I thought of, why would the man with the gun be screaming for help?
AlphaBitch : Funk: My truck has a gun rack with a twirling baton in it!
AlphaBitch : Murph – looks good to me. I just spent too many hours in courtrooms for it to lure me to TV land. Can’t do it.
funksands : AB, next time just stay in your truck.
glenn : AB–If you spent several hours today with a Ted Cruz supporter, it’s no wonder you can’t type!
funksands : Ad, they plan for it every night before they slip under the covers of their hoods…I mean sheets.
AlphaBitch : Glenn – I’m good. Rooting for the thousands marching in Austin. All kidding aside, I spent several hours today with a Ted Cruz supporter. Must have had a tampon in my brain….
KillgoreTrout : Sabreen, I agree. Z wanted to impress the cops.
glenn : Murph–exactly! But then people like Z only have the courage of their convictions until someone confronts them with their so-called convictions!
MurphTheSurf3 : AB – what is your take on my scenario…..
AdLib : Funk – Oh yeah, they would love to have race riots to use as proof that black people are just violent enemies of “true Americans” and all should band together to kill them and keep them out of the WH.
KillgoreTrout : Like I said, why should the person with the gun, fear another person that has no gun. That just doesn’t make sense to me.
Sabreen60 : glenn, as the Prosecutor said, Zimmerman is a wannabe cop. He couldn’t cut it. So he lives in his fantasy world where he is a cop. Actually, I think the police Dept. should be on trial. They wouldn’t have brought charges if the public, including Rev. Al hadn’t raised hell.
glenn : Hey AB–other than not having any tampons, how are you?
MurphTheSurf3 : AB….yours is a sort hand version of my narrative.
MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn….Z could not take a chance on stand your ground….such for courage of convictions….
AlphaBitch : “Less than 8, they skate”. sorry this typing thing is confusing to me. Now where did I put that tampon????
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…the RW response to anything that runs counter to their favored outcome is……conspira cy.
AlphaBitch : Here’s the AB projection: if the jury deliberates LESS than 8 hours, it’s Not Guilty. If more than 8, it’s either guilty (they are deciding which charge) OR it will be a mistrial. Either way, in 20 years of trial practice, the barometer is
KillgoreTrout : What’s up AB? How is Texas treating you these days?
AlphaBitch : Murph – here’s the breakdown. A kid goes for a walk and a fat assed wanna be cop decides to get tough. The kid stands HIS ground, but ends up dead. Fat ass should have not been thinking big.
glenn : Murph–Somehow or other, I was kicked out of the site, and couldn’t get a response in. Anyway, thanks for checking on why Z didn’t use SYG. The way I see it, he was a coward from the beginning. When he didn’t get hailed as a “hero” for shooting a “thug”, he realized he had to make up a story about self defense.
AdLib : Murph – Of course the RW will howl at the dishonesty of anything that doesn’t support their delusions. When unemployment went down, they claimed it was rigged by Obama. When Obama was elected, he was a Muslim with a phony birth certificate. All these cavemen know is to hate whatever happens that they don’t like and brand it a fraud. Lunatics.
PatsyT : Race riots ?? Sure bring them on … … we can sell more fire arms and all the extras that go with it.
Sabreen60 : So they were taking the tampons but allowing guns in the court. Amazing!
AlphaBitch : Funk – just take away the right to wear tampons and prepare to see a real mess. No kidding.
MurphTheSurf3 : For all…as requested….a reprint from earlier…My read on this whole scenario is this. Zimmerman believing that black guys were targeting his neighborhood and that the police were way too slow to respond allowing the bad guys to escape decided he was going to score one for the good guys. Trayvon came his way. He followed him in his car, called the dispatcher, ignored the advice not to continue the following, left the car to continue it and in between the buildings found himself face to face with Trayvon. Trayvon had notice he was being followed and decided to face down his pursuer (not necessarily the smartest thing to do). Zimmerman panicked, pulled his gun. Martin panicked and went for Zimmerman. A smack to the nose, a scuffle, Zimmerman goes down on his back (thus the head abrasions) and Martin tumbles down on top of him. Zimmerman or Martin is screaming in panic. Zimmerman fires and the screaming stops (either because Zimmerman is in shock or because Martin is dead).
funksands : Perhaps it is time for tampon permits. For women’s safety of course.
AlphaBitch : AdLib: Sign me up for a case, even though I lost the Ute about ….12? years ago. Do they have your gravitar emblazoned on them, or is that a little Prince Charles-ish?
PatsyT : WND are sick MF ers
AdLib : AB – Any word on that bill coming up in the TX Legislature to require licenses for women?
funksands : Murph, these guys want race riots sooooooo bad.
MurphTheSurf3 : World Net Daily and Breitbart are reporting that Z is not guilty on all counts but will be found guilty of manslaughter to keep race riots from breaking out….I wonder if they have a bad feeling about the case…
AlphaBitch : Hey Sabreen! How’s it going?
PatsyT : Sorry AB I am going to horde my tampons and pads…
AlphaBitch : Hey Murph! Have not had time to read through. The Z trial? Sigh. Too many years as a paralegal to care. Sad to say.
AdLib : AB – I will be branding PlanetPOV Tampons at Zazzle for all our TX friends!
Sabreen60 : Hi AB!
MurphTheSurf3 : Hello AB
PatsyT : How soon can we get these nut jobs out of office?
AdLib : Funk, I do think that John Guy was far stronger than Bernie de la Rionda, wasn’t as crazy about the latter’s summation but I think Guy hit at least a triple if not a home run today in his rebuttal.
AlphaBitch : Oatsy! Don’t make me ride the mattress! Surrender your tampons!
Sabreen60 : Regardless of what Zimmerman’s lawyers say, Trayvon was a teenager walking alone in the dark. A man starts following him in his car and then gets out his car and starts following. On Hannity Zimmerman say Trayvon was not running away he was “skipping”. I lie not. Then he changed his story that Trayvon was running away. Trayvon’s friend whom he was talking to on the phone at the time told him to run, because the guy could be a “sexual pervert or something”. If anyone was scared, it was Trayvon.
funksands : Regardless, I can’t wait for the trial to be over. Having the scab picked off on of America’s festering wounds for this long is exhausting.
PatsyT : No Tampon in Texas!!
AlphaBitch : Yo ho, boys and girls. Anyone have any tampons I can borrow? I’m fresh out.
PatsyT : Funk same here I thought the rebuttal was very powerful!
AdLib : Sabreen – Yes, this claim of being scared by Z is so phony. He was brimming with hatred, that was evident in the 911 call, not fear! And you’re right, what sane person doesn’t just stay in their car and drive away if they think a dangerous (black) man is “circling” them? And who would walk towards their direction? And who would claim they needed to see a street sign of the street you drive down to and from your home for 4 years? It’s all so obvious, I hope the jury will really focus on all of his lies and as you say, bring back a manslaughter conviction (I don’t think a 2nd Degree decision will happen).
KillgoreTrout : Yeah funk, sadly, I do. Florida is not known for it’s approval of diversity.
funksands : I guess the jury was really moved by the Prosecution’s rebuttal. I hope so.
funksands : KT, I think you know the answer to that…
KillgoreTrout : Another factor is that Trayvon was not committing any crimes, unless it’s a crime to be a black man in a virtual white neighborhood.
funksands : Murph, good point on SYG
PatsyT : I am sending honest mom sprit to those member of the jury… I hope they can get it.
MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn….I found an answer to your question regarding why no “stand your ground” defense….BECAU SE that would have required a pre-trial hearing, a judge’s decision….and that would have put Z on the stand….and his statements from the stand would be admissible in a later trial. Too risky.
AdLib : glenn – Yes, the SYG law is a factor in this. That law encourages murders and provides a framework for anyone who wants to murder someone else, a roadmap as to how to do it and legally get away with it. If you wanted to kill someone you hate in FL, stalk them, taunt her, infuriate them, goad them into attacking you then shoot them. You’re just standing your ground and you can’t be charged with murder. Ain’t that a society for the 21st century?
Sabreen60 : Hey Murph!
KillgoreTrout : Sabreen I whole heartedly agree. I think the fact that Z decided to stalk Martin has a whole lot to do with motive. He was told that the cops were on the way.
PatsyT : Thats it Sabreen! AND AND Why get out of your car if you are really afraid ?
funksands : Sabreen, I agree with you. I think its too hard to prove the third part of the 2nd degree murder requirement.
AdLib : Murph – Well done, I think that is a very strong theory. I think it is logically inescapable that Z was the aggressor, the follower, the stalker and that he had the gun in his hand already when the struggle was going on, in order to fire at point blank range. Trayvon, IMO, was fighting for his life, to prevent Z from shooting him…and sadly, he lost that struggle.
Sabreen60 : KT. Zimmerman should not have gotten out his SUV. The dispatcher told him not to. One of Zimmermans lies was that he was scared. Well if you’re scared, why get out the car? The police are on the way. He wasn’t scared. He profiled Trayvon as a young black thug when he said “these fucking assholes always get away and when called “them” punks.
PatsyT : Hey Murph
glenn : Murph–your scenario fits perfectly with the logic that “the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.” Sadly, Martin did not have a gun, but I truly believe you have nailed Z’s motivation.
PatsyT : Zimmwemurderman is a lier and he makes me sick.
MurphTheSurf3 : Howdy Patsy
Sabreen60 : I think they come back with Manslaughter. But I have heard prosecutors say it’s definitely 2nd degree. I really don’t see how they let him walk away with no consequences.
KillgoreTrout : If I were Zimmerman, and had a semi-auto pistol, I would never have let Martin anywhere near me. I would have shown theapon quite clearly and told the other guy to back off If he didn’t I would have shot him in the foot. There was no good reason Z had, to take Martin’s life.
glenn : Ad–Doesn’t your question go to the “stand your ground” law as well? If you even think you’re being threatened, you can shoot the other person and stand your ground.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib, KT, Glenn and Sabreen….My read on this whole scenario is this. Zimmerman believing that black guys were targeting his neighborhood and that the police were way too slow to respond allowing the bad guys to escape decided he was going to score one for the good guys. Trayvon came his way. He followed him in his car, called the dispatcher, ignored the advice not to continue the following, left the car to continue it and in between the buildings found himself face to face with Trayvon. Trayvon had notice he was being followed and decided to face down his pursuer (not necessarily the smartest thing to do). Zimmerman panicked, pulled his gun. Martin panicked and went for Zimmerman. A smack to the nose, a scuffle, Zimmerman goes down on his back (thus the head abrasions) and Martin tumbles down on top of him. Zimmerman or Martin is screaming in panic. Zimmerman fires and the screaming stops (either because Zimmerman is in shock or because Martin is dead).
AdLib : Patsy – With you on that! I do think there is a possibility of a hung jury too which would be terrible but better than an acquittal.
PatsyT : Lets hope this jury has its head on straight !!
KillgoreTrout : Hey hey Patsy.
Sabreen60 : Hi Patsy!
AdLib : Hey Patsy! Great to see you!
glenn : Sabreen–can’t get much finer than that. I’m well, thanks.
PatsyT : ADlib that is the crux of this
Sabreen60 : Hi glenn. I’m fine as frog’s hair How are you?
KillgoreTrout : glenn I’m sure that’s what Z was thinking.
PatsyT : Happy Aunt here!
AdLib : And one more thing I would have liked to have said to the jury, “If you let this murderer go unpunished, you are telling everyone out there in this state, whether they’re rational or irrational, “If you start a fight and you start losing it, you can just shoot the other person and never have to pay a price for it. Is that the state you want to live in?”
glenn : Patsy–how goes the little ole aunt?
PatsyT : Hi Guys Long time
Sabreen60 : There was a fight, obviously. Hell, guys use to fight and whomever stayed down lost. Maybe Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked and shot Trayvon rather than take an ass whipping. However, he lied when he said his head was slammed on the concrete dozens of times. Come on.
glenn : KT–Well, what’s the point of having a gun if you can’t use it?
KillgoreTrout : Ad, I agree with that. Like I said, if I were Martin I would have stopped any form of assault upon seeing the gun. I think Martin would have stopped too. I don’t think Z gave him the chance to “give up.” I think Z wanted to use his gun all along.
glenn : Hey Sabreen–I was gone for a minute–and when I came back, here you are! How are you?
AdLib : KT – The holster was on the back of his hip, right about where your right kidney is. He demonstrated that in a video. Now how do you grab that when your arms are being held down over your head by Trayvon’s knees AND his body is too far in front of you to shoot him in the heart?
Sabreen60 : KT, the gun was in his waistband in the back. Trayvon would have to reach around Zimmerman to get the gun.
AdLib : KT – The key thing is, if Z pulled the gun at any time other than when he alleges Trayvon was on top of him and beating him “to death” (with cuts measuring centimeters and yes, a smacked in nose), then he has a very hard time proving self defense. Knock that out and show what a liar he is and he goes down. And yes, I have a law license from a Lucky Charms box.
MurphTheSurf3 : Hello Sabreen…..
KillgoreTrout : Doing great Sabreen.
Sabreen60 : KT. I be fine darling. Hope you and everyone here feels okay.
KillgoreTrout : Ad I read that Z kept the gun in a holster, at his side.
Sabreen60 : AdLib – NO! I think Zimmerman had the gun out and Trayvon was fighting for his life. This is based on the evidence I have seen and the lies Zimmerman has told – lies he’s been caught in on tape and on Hannity’s show.
KillgoreTrout : Hey Sabreen how you be?
KillgoreTrout : Murph, I’m going by what Martin claimed, that he pulled out his gun after Martin was getting the best of him. Of course, I don’t believe Z’s story for a second. If I were Martin and indeed on top of Z, I would have gave up as soon as I saw a gun pointed directly at me.
AdLib : Hey Sabreen! Tampongate indeed!
AdLib : Does anyone here believe that Z pulled his gun while he was laying on top of it on his back, with Trayvon’s knees on his shoulders?
Sabreen60 : Hi Everyone. Can we say Tampongate? Geez!
KillgoreTrout : The guy with the gun being in fear for his life? I don’t buy that at all.
AdLib : Murph – No, I don’t think the closing statement by the prosecution hit this point as hard as it could have but he did re-enact it again and ask (instead of state, as I think he should have), “How could he have pulled out the gun and shot Trayvon in the heart?” However, in the rebuttal today, I do think Guy was very strong on this.
MurphTheSurf3 : KT – so in your scenario when does Martin pull the gun and how does he end up on the ground. If the gun is already out, why does Martin go at him?
KillgoreTrout : No Murph. I’m saying that even if Martin was on top of Z, he would have backed off at the sight of a handgun pressed aginst his chest, or even a foot or two away. Nobody in their right mind would continue a fight once the opponent pulled a gun. As I said, I sure wouldn’t.
AdLib : Personally, I think the attempt to show Trayvon was backing up was a waste of valuable time and focus. I know that the idea was to establish Z was not at that point in fear for his life but that energy could have been better spent IMO on the impossibility of Z being able to pull his gun and shoot T through the heart as he alleged. THAT would have taken away the self-defense argument if hammered home.
glenn : Ad–From that account, it sounds as though the prosecution did get some solid facts into their case.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad…you have a much stronger impression from that reenactment than I did….Did the prosecution make this a HUGE point in the closing summation? I missed that too if so.
MurphTheSurf3 : KT – does your idea re. Martin backing away argue against the gun being pulled by Z at all while he was standing up…in other words, are you backing his account of the events?
AdLib : Murph – It was proven through reenactment that it is impossible for Z to have pulled his gun when he said he did. In fact, one of the prosecutors re-enacted it for a defense witness and asked him where the gun would be if it was pulled out at that time and a defense witness testified, it could not have been pointed at T’s heart. Physically impossible.
glenn : Ad and Murph–trying to remember back to the beginning. Why did Zimmerman change his defense from “stand your ground” to “self defense”?
KillgoreTrout : I also think that if it’s true that Z held the gun to Martin’s chest, Martin would have backed away. I know I would, if someone pressed a 9 mm against my chest.
AdLib : Murph – I think Guy’s bringing up race in the way he did, having his hands tied, was not as much as I’d like to have seen but I do think it was a resonant concept for the jurors to imagine if the races of the two were reversed. Not a powerful blow but a lasting thought I think.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- who disproved Z’s contention that he pulled the gun from his back belt holster?
AdLib : Murph – They didn’t need testimony on Z pulling the gun out earlier, they had no testimony on the gun being pulled out when Z was allegedly being held down…except his which has been completely disproven.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- I saw Guy try but I did not sense that his strategy scored. Did you?
KillgoreTrout : Race was absolutely an issue in this case. The prosecution should have said, to hell with the media, we’re going to include the possibility of a racial motivation.
AdLib : Murph – The judge ruled out introduction of racism as a motivation in the trial…which is pretty outrageous to me. SO the prosecution had to dance around that and John Guy cleverly danced along that line today. I was so amused watching the clueless legal pundits on MSNBC today, so confused buy Guy asking the jury to turn the tables and imagine a young black man stalking then shooting a Caucasian guy, then, to avoid the judge accusing him of bringing up race, he said, “This is not about race.” The lawyer pundits were such bewildered doofuses, it went right over their heads.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- my point exactly…I don’t think the prosecution was a match for the defense..$$$$$$, the GOP and corruption…..w hat a team.
glenn : KT–I agree, but as Murph keeps saying, you have to be able to prove that in a court of law beyond a reasonable doubt. And, I do think that the prosecution bringing up race would have been a losing strategy. Of course, not bringing up race still could prove to be a losing strategy, also.
KillgoreTrout : Prosecutors should have been more convincing on the racist aspect AND the wanna be cop aspect. I think both are quite true. Didn’t Z make a few racist slurs to the 911 operator?
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- I don’t think they could have gotten the testimony you are looking for re Z’s not being able to pull out the gun from his back beltline….
KillgoreTrout : glenn, quite true, but I think Z had deeper motivations. Racism being a big part of those motivations.
AdLib : Murph – Zimmerman became a hero of the RW and received hundreds of thousands in donations for his defense from such people. SO he bought the best legal team he could…and his father being a judge couldn’t have hurt.
MurphTheSurf3 : Kt: Z’s motivation….he says that it was about doing his job on the neighborhood watch. Efforts to show his as a racist were tepid from the prosecution side and the cop motivation unsold.
glenn : KT–According to Zimmerman supporters, his motive was to protect his neighborhood which had had several burglaries from a neighboring community of black people.
AdLib : Murph – The bar in a criminal case is beyond a reasonable doubt. My feeling is that had the prosecution presented a case where they alleged Zimmerman pulled his gun on Trayvon prior to Trayvon ever being on top of him, that could be proven by expert testimony that Zimmerman could not have pulled the gun out once Trayvon was on top of him and his arms. All the defense would have at that point would be Zimmerman’s testimony to refute that…and proven to be a liar, I think he would have lost that face off.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad…..I am really curious about Z’s defense….it seemed very well funded and quite adept.
KillgoreTrout : What were Zimmermans motivations concerning his decision to follow Trayvon? Racism? Legitimate concern for the neighborhood, or personal advancement ie, becoming a cop.
MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn – how threatened Z felt he was and how threatened he was could well be two very different things…..it all goes to state of mind and circumstances… .in this case all we have is Z’s report on himself and circumstances that are at best ambiguous….thu s reasonable doubt on the part of the jury.
AdLib : Murph and KT, have you ever seen the fantastic documentary, “The Thin Blue Line”? It is one of my favorites and shows how an innocent man was prosecuted under a false theory by a prosecutor without beyond-a-reasona ble-doubt evidence. This is how prosecutors usually operate, even the evil ones, they present a scenario that they believe is the way something happened and fit all the facts and evidence into it. In this case, the prosecutors could have done that but chose not to.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- I am not an attorney but listening to them analyze the case what I am hearing is that given the quality of Zimmerman’s defense team any prosecution theory would have to be anchored in at least a few demonstrable facts at key junctures. They hoped the 911 call would do it but without expert testimony id’ing the voice as Trayvon they had to look elsewhere and I do not think they found a reputable backup.
glenn : Murph–I agree with your take on “how threatened Zimmerman felt he was”. But, how threatened could Zimmerman feel when he outweighed this kid, and had a gun? I realize Zimmerman didn’t know whether or not Martin had a gun, but isn’t that the whole reason to carry a gun–to protect yourself from others carrying a gun?
KillgoreTrout : Murph, that is true. He couldn’t be ordered to stay in his truck, but he sure was advised to. I think Zimmerman wanted to prove something to the cops. He had aspirations of becoming a cop himself.
KillgoreTrout : Ad, are talking about motive?
MurphTheSurf3 : KT- your take is the one I have but everything Zimmerman did was perfectly legal – no doubt- up to the moment of the shooting and whether that was legal depends on how threatened Zimmerman believed he was AND how well he can demonstrate that he felt threatened (via his interviews and his wounds). A tough case for the prosecution to poke apart.
AdLib : Murph – A Prosecutor has to construct a specific theory of what happened and as long as it supports the facts of the case, it can be presented as what really happened. Prosecuters do this all the time, sometimes, when people are railroaded, it is so obvious that their theory was wholly manufactured…b ut they weren’t barred from presenting it. That is one big flaw with the prosecution in this case, they did not state categorically any one theory and that is unusual.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- your scenario is logical but there is nothing to prove it and the prosecution has to offer proof that establishes guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
KillgoreTrout : Zimmerman stalked that kid. He was looking for a confrontation. He should have stayed in his truck and waited for the cops, who were already on their way.
AdLib : Murph – Exactly. No matter what the partial eyewitnesses said, no matter what the experts said, what it all comes down to is whether Zimmerman is telling the truth about shooting Trayvon solely because he was in fear for his life. How can a jury believe this absolute and proven liar?
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- your possible scenario is one of three or four that are credible but they are pure speculation. The job of the defense is to poke holes in every theory and to create doubt, any doubt since that is all it takes to find the person not-guilty. I think they decided a while back that 2nd degree was not possible and that manslaughter was as going as it might get.
glenn : KT–That is the question, isn’t it? How can you sit there on the jury, look at Zimmerman, look at pictures of Martin, and believe that Zimmerman feared for his life?
KillgoreTrout : That just doesn’t make sense to me.
KillgoreTrout : glenn, he could have at least wounded Martin that wasn’t a life threatening wound. Zimmerman clearly intended to kill this kid. How in the world does a man armed with handgun lose the advantage in a confrontation?
AdLib : Zimmerman had to have his gun out before Trayvon was on top of him (if he ever was). So logically, Zimmerman had to have a gun pointed at him when he was not being dominated. End of story?
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad…the manslaughter conviction rests on whether the jury distrusts Zimmerman and you cite just one of half a dozen places where he makes no sense….
glenn : Murph–I think the reaction to the verdict, whatever it is, is also going to be interesting.
AdLib : Thoughts on this, doesn’t it seem very possible that instead of pulling out his phone then getting hit, Zimmerman pulled out his gun then Trayvon jumped at him to fight for his life? I don’t understand why this wasn’t presented as a probability by the prosecution, it answers all the questions about the gun and what motivated Trayvon to fight Zimmerman.
MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn and Ad….the case ignored the underlying social/racial issues…both sides regarded this as too hot to handle and decided to focus on the particulars in the case- in great part this in reaction to a jury of six women, 1 black, 5 white, most mothers…..
glenn : KT–My thoughts exactly. Why did Zimmerman have to shoot, instead of fight? He could have easily overpowered Martin.
AdLib : Murph – Yep, I think we’re on the same page. 2nd Degree would probably need more concrete evidence than the prosecution had but I really don’t think the case for Zimmerman’s self-defense is that strong. The gun being behind his hip and his claim that Trayvon had his knees on his shoulders makes that claim impossible.
KillgoreTrout : AD, I agree. I’ve always wondered why Zimmerman would wait until Martin was on top of him, to pull his gun. I think Zimmerman was hoping for a situation where he could use his gun.
glenn : Murph and Ad–I do hope the jury takes time to deliberate.
glenn : Murph–And the saddest thing is–as you said before–that the racial and social undertones are the underlying themes of the case. It wasn’t difficult to get people to “see” Trayvon Martin “pounding Z’s head into the pavement”, and not at all difficult to get people to “see” how a grown man who outweighed a teenager by probably 100 lbs. could find it necessary to shoot him, instead of fight back.
KillgoreTrout : glenn, state first, then possibly the federal SC. I doubt they would get a good ruling at the state level.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad…you and I are on the same page re. the Zimmerman case. Did you see my comment earlier in this stream? Do you agree that we agree?
AdLib : glenn – It’s a total guess but I would think the jury will not rush themselves on such a media splashed case that’s also a murder trial but I would expect a verdict by midweek at the latest.
MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn- the request for evidence lists this afternoon tells me that they are going to walk through the evidence item by item. I expect a pretty exhaustive deliberation. Several days.
AdLib : KT – I think it is very possible Zimmerman gets convicted of manslaughter and possible he is acquitted. The key thing is if they view him as a liar, as I think they will have to, the doubt they will have is whether he really was in fear for his life. If they aren’t convinced that he was, if they consider that he would have had to have pulled the gun on Trayvon much earlier, then self-defense is out. I think that’s very possible as a verdict.
glenn : KT–To the state SC or the US?
MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn…your comparison to a rape case per Zimmerman is an accurate one. Of course in this case the other person on trial has no voice of his own. He too cannot take the stand. So they were free to frame him as anything they wanted to.
KillgoreTrout : I wonder if anybody is going take this under handed legislation to the SC.
glenn : Ad and/or Murph–So, do you think the jury will reach a decision quickly, or will it take a while?
glenn : KT–I guess that makes “sense”. And now, I can remember, dull side of tin foil goes against dull head. Thanks
KillgoreTrout : Ohio is just as bad as Texas, concerning new abortion legislation.
AdLib : Funk – It’s possible the jury could find murder in the 2nd but yes, it’s a steep hill. The jury could consider that someone who lied as much as he did about the killing may very well be needing to because he had a depraved mind. I mean, who else would lie about and slime the innocent young man they murdered? That seems depraved to me, in addition to the intent his calls and his stalking Trayvon showed.
glenn : Ad–I know. What I will never be able to understand is how the sheer hypocrisy of their actions.
funksands : BRB, finishing up dinner. 20 mins. See you soon
KillgoreTrout : glenn, the shiny side. It’s better at deflecting rationality rays.
glenn : KT–Probably. Can you tell me–which side goes out–the shiny side or the dull one?
AdLib : glenn – What is new here though is the dishonesty and secrecy of passing anti-abortion laws. They’ve basically decided now to just cheat and, in a kind of rape of democracy, force their laws on the public. That’s why my parody post uses that theme of rape, they exemplify through this strategy how they relate to rapists.
KillgoreTrout : Are those helmets made of Reynold’s Wrap?
glenn : Murph–The Zimmerman case reminds me of many rape cases, where the victim is put on trial, rather than the defendant.
glenn : Ad–good call on the helmet!
MurphTheSurf3 : Z-I-M-M-E-R-M-A- N…IF the Jury goes by the law in Florida…he skates….his following, his gun carrying, his asking Martin what he was doing…all legal….and then his attorneys built a credible case for his believing he was in fear of his life. Self defense trumps both Murder 2 and Voluntary Manslaughter. BUT, if the Jury discounts Zimmerman as a truth teller and allows the idea of Martin as acting in self defense, in a preemptive and limited move against a likely assailant to percolate…then he gets Manslaughter.
funksands : 1. Must have a dead body 2. With a dangerous act 3.evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, (that’s the tough one)
glenn : Ad–because Zimmerman killed an unarmed black man. Their “meme” of all black men being killers and armed fell apart, and they had to have something to defend Z with.
KillgoreTrout : Hey Ad. glenn, I think he may be convicted of manslaughter. He did cause the death of another, by his actions. He was told to stay in his truck, but he didn’t. He went looking for a confrontation.
AdLib : glenn – Maybe that’s why some men in the Legislature where a helmet to bed?
funksands : Here’s the actual statute.
AdLib : Hey KT! What up???
glenn : KT–I think the verdict will be NOT guilty? How about you?
funksands : The Florida burden of proving all three necessary pieces of 2nd degree murder is too steep I’m afraid. Jury has to feel that its proven that he acted with a “depraved mind”.
AdLib : Murph – Isn’t it telling about the race and social issues underlying the Zimmerman case that Repubs need to support him so desperately? Why? Because he killed a black man.
glenn : Ad–It seems to me that the r/tp’s have now “fixed” government so it can’t function any more and they are setting their sights on abortion providers so they can’t function any more.
KillgoreTrout : Hey funk. I think you may be right.
funksands : KT, hello and guilty of manslaughter
glenn : Ad and Murph–saw a good post on HP today, amid all the blood and Zimmerman support. It said: the NC legislature doesn’t know the difference between a menstrual cycle and a motor cycle!
AdLib : Murph, not a time issue as much as reminding myself to do so. Thanks for that! Looking forward to your comments.
KillgoreTrout : OK folks, what do you think the verdict will be in the Zimmerman case?
MurphTheSurf3 : KT- well as well…got hot here but slightly cooler now.
glenn : KT–Doing well, too.
KillgoreTrout : Quite well glenn. And you?
MurphTheSurf3 : Funk…ah, from the Zimmerman school, I see.
KillgoreTrout : Fine Murph, and you?
glenn : Hi KT, how are you?
AdLib : glenn – Yep, I have a feeling that this sneaky, underhanded stealing away of women’s rights will spawn many more angry citizens out there and breathe new life into the women’s rights movement…and maybe hasten a Dem takeover in TX and other states.
funksands : Murph, I’m afraid their symptoms are too advanced. I’m prescribing Chief with a pillow over the face.
MurphTheSurf3 : KT…how ya be.
KillgoreTrout : Hi Planeteers! What’s shakin, besides the TexASS legislature?
MurphTheSurf3 : Funk…did you inject them in the night crawlers, i.e trolls.
AdLib : Thanks Funk, really appreciate the props!
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…you are entitled to whatever time you need. Just wanted to be sure that there was no malfunction….I owe you about a dozen comments. Maybe tomorrow. You have two articles I want to say somethings about…
funksands : Murph, I had a bad case of that not too long ago. Antibiotics seemed to do the trick
MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn, well enough….heat abating here…good news.
AdLib : Murph! Hey, you are right about that! Before I fell a bit under the weather, I was going to do that. I will be doing that next week with a post, Tweet and Facebook!
MurphTheSurf3 : Hey there Funkster……HP has been a place of much blood of late-+- Zimmerman fever.
glenn : Hey Murph–how goes it?
funksands : Hi Ad, how’ve you’ve been? I really enjoyed your last two articles.
funksands : Muuuuuuuuuuuurf
AdLib : We need a Constitutional Amendment that says we have the right to bear tampons!
glenn : Ad–kinda goes along with the video the other day of the woman being escorted out for speaking her mind.
MurphTheSurf3 : Howdy ALL….AD LIB are we still supposed to be getting alerts re. Vox ?
funksands : “I regret I have but one tampon to give for my country”
AdLib : Hey Funk, this is a treat!
AdLib : glenn, if I was writing a parody of the Texas Legislature, I couldn’t come up with something more telling or ridiculous than preventing tampons from being brought into the Legislature but affirming that carrying guns are okay.
funksands : What up G?
glenn : Hey–the funk is in the house! Hey funk!
funksands : Hey, who’s the early bird?
glenn : Ad–Is there anything more ridiculous to be frightened of? I’m curious–was there a tweet or “call to arms” regarding the tampons? Why did the legislature focus on those particular items?
AdLib : glenn, If it was a gun, that would be one thing but as a white male Texas legislator, tampons scare the hell out of me!
glenn : Ad–Nope, don’t need one any more. I just carry it right out in the open!
AdLib : Hey glenn, do you have a concealed carry permit for that tampon?
glenn : Hi AdLib–Beware–I have tampons, which in the TexASS legislature, is considered dangerous!
AdLib : Don’t forget to say “hi” or “TexAss Legislature” when you arrive!
AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. Hope to see you then!