Vox Populi – 9-21-2012

AdLib : Just the reverse here, things didn’t grow well in our garden, too short a Spring? DOn’t know but very disappointed. Night to you too!

SallyT : Goodnight, Adlib.

AdLib : Well, thanks again for helping me close down the Vox bar! Grab a drink for yourself on the way out! Have a great weekend, Sally!

SallyT : We tried to have a garden this year but it never got hot enough for anything to really grow.

AdLib : It’s still sweltering down here in LA but the cool evenings are back. I do hate Climate Change too, bad all the way around.

SallyT : That is good!

AdLib : I am really nauseated by fast food, I can count on one hand how many times my daughter has had fast food from a corporate chain.

SallyT : Well, I won’t keep you. I know you are probably tired after all you have been at this all night. I just got here. You take care and have a good weekend. It has turned cool here. We did not have a summer! I hate this climate change but I guess we didn’t have it as bad as other parts did.

SallyT : I don’t want to live in the past but sometimes all those simple things were better. Especially food! Fast food and everything they put in it now is making us sick but people can’t accept that. They want it cheap and fast and easy.

AdLib : Then, once they see it works and isn’t scary, they embrace it.

SallyT : That’s right.

AdLib : Sally – That’s the way these things always go. All the Baggers howling about ending DADT and how it will destroy the morale of the military…now after this time reports come out saying that there is no change. Same with any big changes, people are just afraid of the new.

SallyT : I grew up with a slop bucket but we took it out to the pigs!

SallyT : Another funny thing is you can recycle the pizza box with the food scraps.

SallyT : People are so stupid, AdLib. At first they were all complaining about there going to be rats and stuff. But, where was their garbage going before? In the garbage can! Dumb how people hate a little change for the good. They are all happy now, tho.

AdLib : Remarkable! That seems futuristic and big-picture thinking to me! We’re not there yet even here in LA.

SallyT : It has cut down on garbage pick ups.

SallyT : Yes, AdLib. It goes with our yard waste and it is recycled as fertilizer.

AdLib : Sally, I didn’t know about that, very interesting and progressive!

SallyT : Oh, and we recycle our food waste separately from other waste here in the city. We actually have slop buckets that the city provides.

AdLib : Thanks for staying up with me KQ and Sally! I’ll get the empties, you can hit the lights and lock the Vox door! Sleep well tonight and have a great weekend!

AdLib : KQ – The truth is, a Bloom Box would hugely transform things. Isn’t it about 80% of electricity that’s lost going across the grid? If people had their own electrical generator and none of the power was lost, and the power they weren’t taking from the grid anymore was preserved…that could mount up to a huge amount of available and affordable energy in every direction. If I were President and Bloom had a solidly working residential box, I would pass a subsidy to get them in millions of homes and there could be a huge economic transformation.

SallyT : I just showed up to turn out the lights for AdLib.

SallyT : Me, too, KQ.

KQµårk 死神 : Man I got to go my eyes are getting blurry.

SallyT : The oil companies hate mass transit.

KQµårk 死神 : I think politics is even hurting technologies like the Bloom Box because conservatives still control the purse strings of business.

SallyT : Of course, AdLib, we have a Dem Governor.

SallyT : Portland is also getting pretty big on small communities again. That is why bikes are so popular. Our traffic is a real mess and people hate getting stuck in it. We will be taking the lightrail over to Vancouver WA in the next year.

KQµårk 死神 : Oh absolutely AdLib. Those things are just alchemy. The worst thing they do is raise expectations so when a hybrid type thing comes along like the Bloom Box people expect too much.

AdLib : Sally – Now that’s even bigger and better. Light rail, subways, mass transit in general would make a huge difference if built out much more dramatically. Obama was trying to do that and then these Bagger Repub Governors refused it! Scott in FL and Christie in NJ! Pigs who doomed folks in their regions for years if not for good.

SallyT : We have expanded our lightrail so far now that we are almost to Salem from Portland!

AdLib : KQ – Remember the Cold Fusion fraud? And the water as fuel hoax has been around a long time though the gimmick a while back was that by dropping some pill or chemical into your gas tank after filling it with water, you’d have fuel. Uh-huh…

KQµårk 死神 : That’s really cool sally. Probably the least thing we talk about in this country is mass transit and we need much more.

AdLib : Sally – Bikes are great and make so much sense when you’re just going a little ways. And as you say, horse “exhaust” actually has beneficial uses…unlike CO2.

KQµårk 死神 : I still keep on seeing charlatans trying to sell cares fueled by water now. Unfortunately the few cranks are spoiling a true possibility.

KQµårk 死神 : I think costs too will eventually create a H2 clean future because batteries do contain elements that will get rarer and rarer. Of course H2 technology uses fuel cells so you have smaller batteries too.

AdLib : KQ – Yep, and if someone could invent a device that could distill hydrogen from the air or water into an engine, it would be an earth-shattering development in the progress of human society.

SallyT : Here is Portland, we have gone back to bikes and trolley cars (lightrail)

SallyT : Yes, AdLib but their exhaust is good fertilizer.

KQµårk 死神 : TC Smurf

AdLib : Night Murph! Take care!

KQµårk 死神 : The best thing about a clean H2 future is it’s a true clean mobile fuel that could even be used for jet planes.

MurphTheSurf3 : going to sign off….things are popping….

KQµårk 死神 : I just checked the Bloom Box website AdLib. I see the discrepancy. If you use industrial methane you get a little CO2 emission but if you you bio gas or naturally generated H2? (not sure) there are no emissions.

AdLib : Sally – We could go back to riding horses and carriages. They ran on hay and grass, a cheap fuel source…but they had very dirty “exhausts”.

AdLib : KQ – From all I’ve read, the technology for hydrogen cars is still at such an early stage and the issue of filling stations would be huge, whereas people can charge electric cars at home and at many public places. So, I think the electric car will flourish and the hydrogen car, unless or until they invent a way to fill it with water that can be used for fuel, will be taking a “back seat”.

AdLib : Murph – that’s good news! It’s great to see you’re helping to put out a bogus fire like this before it gets too much oxygen. Too bad so much time has to be spent on shooting down intentionally false claims but it needs to be done. Thanks for doing this!

KQµårk 死神 : For H2 powered cars I knew they used Methane and electricity to make it so there must be enough net electricity generation to make H2.

SallyT : Of course we had windmills on the farm to run the water pumps for the water tanks for the cattle. It is amazing how if we just went backwards in time a bit, we solve a lot of things.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib-+- got back four responses so far and they are sending the material to their contact lists. I got a call from the store owner a few minutes ago. We are having lunch tomorrow.

AdLib : Sally – Well, weren’t we supposed to get jet cars by now?

KQµårk 死神 : OK that must be a development I even missed.

SallyT : Well, a windmill on a car would make it a helicopter wouldn’t it?

AdLib : Sally and KQ – Yes, someone joked that Romney knows you can’t put a windmill on the top of a car, that’s where the dog goes.

KQµårk 死神 : Of course for Romney putting dog energy on your car is no problem.

KQµårk 死神 : Sally that reminds me of one of the dumbest things Romney ever said. He said talking about ending the windmill credits that you can’t put a windmill on a car. But in essence you can indirectly put a windmill on your car with a plug in electric hybrid if you have a home receiving electricity through wind energy.

AdLib : KQ – Actually, the Bloom Box uses a small amount of natural gas but its exhaust is hydrogen! So, for those folks wanting electric or hydrogen cars, you have your own very cheap filling station!

AdLib : IMO, that could be the path to pull this economy up quickly. Subsidize Bloom boxes for residential customers, bring the cost of energy way down, build a quickly blossoming alternate energy movement that cuts oil use, helps fight climate change and will foster so many industries and inventions that would rely on a cheap and plentiful amount of energy.

KQµårk 死神 : Oh I forgot to tell you I researched that more and the emissions are a fraction of just burning Methane. Of course that cold fusion thing just kind of died and I have not seen anything about it for about a year now.

SallyT : AdLib, I want my own windmill.

AdLib : KQ – I can dream, can’t I? As for tech stuff, I’m still waiting for Bloom to make a residential Bloom Box. That I would buy…since it would pay for itself in a few years then virtually free electricity!

AdLib : Murph – Glad we could help! Facts are indeed kryptonite to the Bizarros on the RW and all of their lies.

KQµårk 死神 : Oh God yes that Tesla is amazing of course it would take every penny I had.

KQµårk 死神 : The spray tan was so obvious and you know those inhalants really can have that effect.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib et. al. Just sent out a packet of links to 15 operatives regarding the false 40 and the accurate 28. Thank you.

AdLib : KQ – Mitt was on a Coppertone high, I think. The fumes of it must have gotten to him, he sure sprayed on enough, trying to look dark as a Latino.

AdLib : KQ – I’m looking forward to getting a plug in electric car one day. Love what Tesla is doing, they should be coming out with an affordable all-electric car in the next year or so…but the Model S…which ain’t cheap and is on the road now, is a dream car!

KQµårk 死神 : I don’t know if anyone noticed but it really looked like Mittens was on something when he was in FL. Could he be Breaking Bad.

AdLib : Sally – That’s good to hear. I know AARP supports the ACA, it closed the donut hole in prescriptions and provides free preventative services.

KQµårk 死神 : I’m still deciding call me selfish but when I get a flexfuel car I won’t mind paying under $3.00 a gallon for gas.

AdLib : KQ – Yep, if I was Obama, I would be like a bear trap on Romney, waiting for him to step into it then clamping shut on his dishonesty and hypocrisy, noting in a pleasant way that he’s doing it again.

KQµårk 死神 : Exactly AdLib and that’s why looking at the debates I try to put myself in the shoes of someone undecided. No doubt some of the progressive pundits are going to be maddening with their ‘dissapointment ‘ with articles saying what they would have said.

AdLib : KQ – I don’t support ethanol subsidies for corn, for switch grass, sugar cane, etc., those things that are also good for the environment and food supply. But we grow way too much corn to use it for ethanol and high fructose corn syrup, unnecessary to subsidize it.

KQµårk 死神 : Sorry I meant patient of course.

SallyT : In my AARP Magazine I got last month, it had a huge article on the ACA and how good it was for the elderly and retired. I think that may have contribute to Ryan getting booed.

AdLib : KQ – I agree. Obama is ahead and he should act like the adult in the room. Calm, not angry, “correcting” Romney on his lies and coming off thoughtful. Meanwhile, in contrast, Romney will come off hostile and desperate. Some Dems may be disappointed by Obama’s modest demeanor but that works well for indie voters.

KQµårk 死神 : I also think Obama needs to be impatient AdLib. He will make mistakes and change some positions within debates let alone between debates if he thinks it will satisfy the crowd.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- thanks for the WSJ link.

KQµårk 死神 : The one I’m most conflicted on is ethanol subsidies.

SallyT : Murph, I know it wasn’t his speech today because he was getting booed at AARP but is was a few days ago.

MurphTheSurf3 : Sally T- thanks for the Ryan heads up….yes that could be the source of the current surge in this.

KQµårk 死神 : I agree with what you say AdLib. But I also think knowing Obama he will play it safe. He won’t take as many shots as people will like but he’ll have to counterpucnh well.

AdLib : KQ – I’m all for subsidies to get emerging industries off the ground, it’s an investment in the future. I oppose subsidies for mature industries though.

AdLib : Murph, here’s a WSJ article that includes it too: «link»

KQµårk 死神 : I agree 100% Sally. Things like oil subsidies are ridiculous too. I’m even a bit conflicted on some renewables they are not all the same either.

AdLib : KQ – Hey, we know that all Romney wants to run on is the economy. So Obama should be well armed to deal with him and his lies on that. Secondly, we know that he only has lies to run on so play the bigger game, underscoring his reliance on lies and instead of people focusing on the smaller message of each issue, paint the picture of Romney as the liar and fraud that he is. “I accept that you believe the things you say, I just don’t know whether to believe what you said last month or today.”

KQµårk 死神 : One thing or sure AdLib if Romney’s strategy is to try and shake up Obama it will be a huge lose for him. Hillary got Obama a little of base during the debates because he had to keep her supporters in the fold. But obviously he does not have to worry about he GOP base.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- using the 28 percent number I have found reports in Reuters, Financial Times, Forbes (not the Wall Street Journal). I am prepping files to send off to a bunch of people tonight. Thanks for the leads.

SallyT : You are right, KQ, some subsidies are needed to help build but not for companies that are making record profits or are in the business of making us sick. Just a pet peeve of mine. (You know how I feel about industrial farming. )

KQµårk 死神 : Again kind of playing armchair political strategist that’s just what I would do AdLib. There’s not much else Obama can do but have a good strategy of what he is for.

AdLib : KQ – True, the Obama team needs to prep him on responses to such a wide array of possibilities but if I was them, I would say that whenever in doubt, smile and do the Reagan/Clinton thing, “There you go again!” then explain why what he said is just not true.

KQµårk 死神 : Agreed Sally. There are good subsidies like solar energy but most are a waste.

AdLib : KQ – Which is why I think your theory will prove to be correct, Romney will follow the push of his camp to fire up the base and use small minded lies, attacks and quips…which I think will hugely backfire with the public, especially after Obama exposes one lie after another.

SallyT : KQ, I am feeling better tonight so thought I would see what you guys were discussing on here.

KQµårk 死神 : SALLY! how are you.

SallyT : Like the oil companies and industrial farming subsidies on corn syrup that is making us FAT!

KQµårk 死神 : Agreed AdLib I’m just saying it must be a preparation nightmare for the Obama team.

AdLib : Hey Sally!

AdLib : KQ – On one hand, you’re right about the unpredictability of Romney but consider the built in flaw to that, if he is seen as not credible and flip flopping, won’t more flip flops just reinforce the big picture of him being a lying, greedy fraud? The subtext will defeat the context.

SallyT : Beside the Corporate Tax rate and closing loopholes, they need to cut their subsidies, too.

KQµårk 死神 : About the only trend I saw from the GOP debates was that Romney’s small mind followed the issues of that time so whatever his campaign is saying at the time on the stump or in ads will probably be said by him in debates.

AdLib : The story is covered by many outlets, Obama wanting to cut corporate taxes to 28%. That is fact and documentation. As for the 40%, they have no facts, it’s just BS and no more documented than these same people’s beliefs that Obama is Kenyan. Once you provide documentation, that’s all an intelligent reasoned person needs to see. Those who would believe undocumented rumors over facts are too dumb to reach anyway.

KQµårk 死神 : Going back to the debates a sec. The biggest thing that strikes me is how many unprecedented things are happening during this election. No presidential candidate has lied nearly this much before and no candidate flip flopped this much before. That just makes me a bit uneasy only because you don’t know what Romney’s going to say. It’s like preparing for a football team that plays differently every week.

AdLib : Murph – Just gave you a link an article.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- The 40 percent number is all over the rightwing blogosphere and as is SO typical of our side….nothing that I can find in a quick search that deflates the claim. So annoying.

AdLib : Of course the RW wants to make up lies about Obama raising corporate taxes and wanting to take away guns, lies are all they have left to convince people to vote for them.

AdLib : Murph – From that NYT article: “President Obama will ask Congress to scrub the corporate tax code of dozens of loopholes and subsidies to reduce the top rate to 28 percent, down from 35 percent, while giving preferences to manufacturers that would set their maximum effective rate at 25 percent, a senior administration official said on Tuesday. “

KQµårk 死神 : Well Romney himself by paying more than he could said he’s not qualified to be president remember that line?

AdLib : Murph, from Feb of this year: Obama Offers to Cut Corporate Tax Rate to 28% «link»

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- a quote from romney used at the meeting…“Fifty -four percent of American workers work in businesses taxed as individuals,” Mr. Romney said at a fund-raising event in Montana on Wednesday, repeating a figure he uses often. “So when the president wants to raise taxes on individuals — as he’s proposed from 35 percent to 40 percent — he kills jobs.” Of course nothing follows this by way of source.

SallyT : Murph, Ryan gave a speech yesterday or today about how the 40% Corp Tax was killing jobs. I don’t know if that is why it is a hot issue now.

KQµårk 死神 : Exactly smurf and AdLib. It was surreal because I never saw a president go down his list of promises so precisely before Obama. Then when he did what he promised people on the right and left complained.

AdLib : KQ – Yep, I noticed that and it smells very fishy to me. Hope someone compares Romney’s income over the last two years to Bain’s and sees if Bain’s went down the same percentage. My bet is that it didn’t and thus, Romney’s change would be manipulated.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….I need some source material on this. Later is ok but this is really a big deal and we need to stop it in the next 24 hours. You have my e mail. Several of the other owners there said their accountants had warned them that this was coming down the road…..the right playing the Big Lie Card.

AdLib : KQ – You were right on both counts, people wanted a dictator to come in and change and fix everything by himself, very unrealistic. And though I supported Obama from the outset of the Dem Primaries in 2007, I didn’t like his stands on some things like the government spying and allowing the communication companies to get away with betraying their customers. I knew Obama was not a down the line liberal but I live in the real world and accepted that most issues we agreed on, some we didn’t. I know you’re the same way as I’ll bet most here are. But too may were living in a fantasy world and when Obama didn’t deliver their unicorn, they howled about betrayal.

KQµårk 死神 : Anyone notice Mittens income when down almost $7 million from his earlier tax estimate.

MurphTheSurf3 : KQ- I think I have said this here before. I worked very closely with the Obama campaign in 2007 and 2008 doing field prep work in five states….I was often disturbed by what I saw as inflated idealism, ridiculous expectations, and low information among so many of his supporters (followers is more like it). So your insight is absolutely on the mark.

KQµårk 死神 : The only nominal tax rates that need to be changed are getting tax rates back up for the rich to the Clinton years. Nudging capital gains taxes up to same and raising the payroll tax ceiling.

KQµårk 死神 : Sounds like a whisper campaign smurf. In fact Obama said he would lower corporate tax rates if they cut loopholes as long as it was revenue neutral.

AdLib : Murph – It’s a fraud. Obama’s plan has been for some time, eliminating deductions for corporations while LOWERING their tax rate with a plan that it would slightly increase revenues but get rid of complexities and loopholes.

AdLib : Get some rest CL and a warm welcome back! You should be back on CA time in a few days but no need to stop drinking Spanish wines!

KQµårk 死神 : I realized before the election even took place in 2008 two things. People’s expectations were way way too high because we were in such deep shit. I also realize liberals thought Obama was far more liberal than he was. I mean he did vote for FISA and said he would attack Al Qaeda more in AfPak but I guess people thought he was no sincere.

AdLib : Night Sabreen! And BTW, didn’t Ann Romney remind you of that YouTube video crying, “Stop attacking Britney!””

MurphTheSurf3 : SOS-+- Does anyone know about a 40 Percent Corporate Rate that is being pushed by the Obama crowd. That has suddenly hit here in Mo. An owner of a local family grocer who is a Dem called to say there was a speaker tonight at his association’s monthly meeting who made the claim and used to both support Romney but also to support AKIN as part of the stop Obama socialism meme. HELP!

choicelady : Well folks, jet lag has not entirely left me. I still think it’s about 6 am tomorrow. I’m going to have to toddle off to bed and hope I can get back in sync with CA time. I fell asleep at my desk today! That’s how bad THAT is! So good night and great weekend to all. Be well!

AdLib : CL – I would try to be diplomatic with stubborn Repubs but I have no patience for self-important, smug Dems who have convinced themselves of BS and need to boast about how clever they are.

KQµårk 死神 : You too sabreen. See you on the twitter pages.

Sabreen60 : Good night Funk and I right behind you. Have a good week folks and STOP IT!!!

AdLib : Night Funk! Have a great weekend!

choicelady : KQ – it is pertty weird living in CA with people who damned well ought to know better but don’t.

AdLib : CL – It won’t stop Romney but the polls and numbers all point to an improving economy that is recognized by half of the public. So, my proposition is that despite what all the pundits say, the current state of the economy is meaningless to the election. People know that it’s not going to improve overnight so one month’s reports are not pivotal…though good reports will help affirm that things are getting a little better. This election is about believing in Romney or Obama and IMO, there is no way Romney can gain an advantage in that area…especiall y since he is a shameless and compulsive liar. That’s it, people either trust Romney or Obama, the economy is secondary to that. Obama will win…we just have to make sure we keep folks fired up to vote and he will.

choicelady : KQ – I think if these people had not been strangers it would have been better, but I don’t need to have anything to do with them after this. It was just really awkward to see their hostility to our hosts – it wasn’t even disguised and was based entirely on NOT PAYING ATTENTION to what was going on. I felt as if they were all sitting there in the seminars with their fingers in their ears saying “Lalalalalal can’t heaaaar you” so they would be safe in their own stupid prejudices.

KQµårk 死神 : AdLib my head would have probably exploded if I lived where your folks do.

KQµårk 死神 : CL I don’t have nearly as many contacts as you do but me and my wife were able to ‘talk down’ about every ‘dissapointed’ liberal acquaintance we had with cold hard logic. But I also realize the pressure to be ‘dissapointed’ was much higher on the west coast.

choicelady : funk – have a wonderful weekend, and yes, next time I go, please do come, too. That would have been GREAT!

choicelady : AL – LOL!! yes a waste of good wine! We just steered clear once it became obvious what was going on. They were merchants of “Fine Whine” instead of enjoying the amazing situation we were in. What a loss for them!

AdLib : KQ – So true, it looked and felt like an elitist trend, being a Dem attacking Obama for not being perfect enough. “Look at me, I’m too cool, I’m a Dem but I attack my President because my standards are so much higher and I’m so much more principled…whi ch is why a betray my President! Who wants a latte?”

funksands : “one” of us (sheesh)

funksands : Folks I gotta roll, have a lovely evening. Welcome home CL. Next time take of us to Spain instead…

KQµårk 死神 : Yeah I tell myself people will just need to go one step and say to themselves how can I reward people that are trying to put politics before country.

AdLib : CL – Good thing I wasn’t there, I would have lost my license for diplomacy…and wasted a lot of wine bottles conking those people over the head.

choicelady : Well RMONEY can try the energy strategy now, but here gasoline just FELL by another nickel a gallon. Now what is he going to say? There is a real chance that by the debates the unemployment may be DOWN since housing starts and general retail are UP, and various business periodicals are saying this is a solid recovery mode. RMONEY is screwed trying to say nothing Obama did worked.

funksands : CL Jeez what a waste of time. Clowns. Why even go?

KQµårk 死神 : CL face it complaining about Obama just got trendy and you know how people are.

AdLib : KQ – That is a valid concern but I think only some of the dumbest “undecided” voters think that way, that “It’s better to vote for an incompetent elitist who will work against my best interest and help pass bills that make my life worse because at least something, even though it’s really bad for me, will get done.”

choicelady : AdLib – of the 16 people with the group in Spain, only 4 of us were willing to work issues. The other 12 were pissing on Obama all week and yet had done NOTHING to advocate for or against a single issue. And I mean NOTHING. Just bitched. It was disgusting.

KQµårk 死神 : Good point AL.

AdLib : Remember Kucinich was a leader of the Kill the Bill folks in Congress. Where is he today?

KQµårk 死神 : Last election my biggest fear before the Lehman collapse would be that McCain’s all above strategy on energy would work. This time about the only thing that I worry about as an issue is that people will only choose Romney in the end because people will see the GOP as so obstructionist that nothing will get done with a Dem president.

choicelady : KQ – oh,,, I remember WELL the single payer “kill the bill” people. I debated one who is a DOCTOR who wanted to end the help and start over. I asked him how he, a physician, could turn his back on giving help to 30 million people – and I got no answer.

AdLib : CL – A lesson I learned a while back is that however sincere some on the left are about their principles, they can be just as unprincipled about getting what they want as Baggers. Look at the whole Emo-Prog thing…and BTW, what happened to those whiners? They linked arms with Repubs to attack Obama through much of his Presidency, Arianna even said she might vote Repub this year. Left or Right, there are selfish, unprincipled and bratty people out there who want what they want and don’t care how unethical they have to be…or wnat others to be…to get it.

funksands : CL – Amen

choicelady : funk – I cannot believe (though I know you’re right) that we have gotten to the point we want a Big Daddy instead of a democracy. It’s really hard to listen to people bitch who, when asked, never did a damned thing to express their own views or work an issue. Lazy minded people are the death of democracy.

KQµårk 死神 : CL I’m a little late but that’s how I saw the ACA debate go as well. Let’s not forget the chorus on the left that wanted to ‘kill the bill’ too.

funksands : CL, the left AND right want it. It is a symptom of an utterly broken Congress. It makes people crave an even more powerful Exec. branch.

KQµårk 死神 : It’s hypocritical too because Sanders would rightly be the first one to call out GOP obstructionism on things like the second jobs bill but it was BOTH Dems and Repugs that blocked closing Gitmo and for Dems to use that is the height of hypocrisy.

choicelady : Everyone – it shocks me to my foundations how much the Left really wants and Imperial President just like Bush – but with OUR values. It’s disgusting. They do NOT like democracy any better than the Right does.

funksands : Ad:

choicelady : AdLib – I TOTALLY agree!

funksands : Ad, I think those votes show the advantages and disadvantages of a big tent. These things are going to crop up.

KQµårk 死神 : Well said AdLib that’s probably my biggest pet peeve when the left brings that up.

AdLib : Sabreen – That is one meme that annoys me. Obama DID keep his campaign promise about closing Guantanamo, it was Congress that passed a law preventing him from doing so. How is that his fault? Sanders knows better and is just being a media addict to beat that drum, he is dishonest and that’s disappointing because I have liked him. Same with the charge that Obama hasn’t tried to pass immigration reform. The Repubs filibustered the Dream Act! Obama supported it and helped get it moved up until that point. Every time these kinds of BS attacks are made and others like “Obama said he’d change DC”, I want to yell at the TV, “AMERICA ISN’T A DICTATORSHIP! The president can’t make everything happen by decree! If the Repubs in Congress have decided to block everything, they are an equal branch of government and can stop him? What about US Democracy don’t you understand?!” Okay, glad I got that out of my system. Time for another beer…

funksands : CL, yes WHEN they learn that. I think that’s part of the problem of trying to get people moved before they even understand what’s going on.

choicelady : AdLib – if you watched the Blue Dogs vote on ACA, where people were very engaged FOR ACA, the votes were much, much stronger. Only in states without a lot of activism did Blue Dogs back off and vote against it. People say it was all Pelosi and Obama strong arming the vote – it was NOT. It was people talking, talking, talking and making their views well known. We the people got ACA passed.

KQµårk 死神 : I think yes and no on that AdLib because Pelosi even let some Dems vote against the ACA as long as she had enough votes because she knew they had tough constituents.

choicelady : Funk – vouchers are to Medicare what Romney care is to Obama care. It gives a flat subsidy no matter the cost. Medicare covers your bills (if you have A and B) while the $6000 voucher is about HALF of what is needed. It would be a disaster, and people are beginning to understand. Romney’s plan did the same – flat $200 per month subsidy even when the monthly cost was $900-1200. That is outrageous! Then they added a $5000 deductible that poor people couldn’t use, so the insurance got used as catastrophic, not preventative. When people learn all that – the outcome is VERY different from what they THINK is going on.

AdLib : Funk – Those were both tough votes for Blue Dogs. It was easier though for them to vote for the stimulus because Obama had such high positives with Americans then, they had more cover. At the time of the ACA vote, Obama’s positives were much lower and, IMO, many Blue Dogs cared more about their re-election than what was best for their party and country.

KQµårk 死神 : Amen CL and that’s what I mean when I say even pro life Dems should have respect for woman’s choice because it’s not taken lightly. That’s why the glibness on the GOP pro life side is so different like when the smirk and even joke about woman who get abortions in extreme cases like with rape and medical reasons. I’ll never forget when McCain used air quotes and smirked when talking about a woman getting an abortion for medical reasons. It was probably his worst moment in the debates.

Sabreen60 : AdLib, I totally agree and the same thing can be said of the Bernie Sanders of Congress. He was on TV talking about how President Obama had not closed Gitmo, blah, blah, blah. I thought Congress refused to fund the moving of the prisoners.

funksands : Ad, there have been a couple polls that specifically asked whether or not voters would prefer vouchercare vs. an advisory board. It’s a loaded, unprofessional question, but it exposes something about people’s preferences.

funksands : Ad, for sure. 91% of blue dogs voted for the stimulus. 54% voted for ACA

AdLib : Funk – I don’t know, many polls show that over 60% of Americans don’t want Medicare changed at all. And the more people learn about voucher care, the less they like it. I think the debates will help to spread the word about how destructive it would be to remove Medicare as an entitlement.

choicelady : ADLib – good summation, thank you. That makes total sense.

choicelady : KQ – I’m still pro choice. I respect women’s moral agency. Only they know what the impact of a pregnancy will have on them, their other family members, their lives. I never saw but a tiny number of women who were using abortion as birth control – and those were mostly abused women whose husbands or partners would not let them use birth control. Most women approach this issue with serious deliberation – and it’s their call, IMHO.

AdLib : CL – Here’s the way I look at it. Blue Dogs may have different opinions on a number of issues from most Dems but they are part of the Dem Party. So, you simply don’t set your own house on fire. You disagree with Obama, you don’t attack or insult him, you respectfully disagree and explain why. Same with other Dems in Congress. And when there is a huge vote where their party needs them, they need to show loyalty in those rare cases and vote with their party.

KQµårk 死神 : Oh and of course in cases where woman’s physical or mental health are at risk.

funksands : KQ x2

choicelady : KQ – I’m with you, and that’s after 12 years on the lines outside women’s clinics. I am NOT hostile to honorably pro life people who STILL have compassion for women. I am hostile to ALL of those who think women are just empty vessels.

KQµårk 死神 : I think there are some solid lines too. I can accept a pro life Dem but not a Dem that believes a woman can’t even have an abortion in cases of rape and incest. Most of all they need to respect Roe v. Wade but they don’t have to like it.

AdLib : Sabreen, I saw Boehner’s whine but it’s all futile. Obama will let the Bush Tax cuts expire then support a bill renewing them for the 99%. If the Repubs vote against it, they will be voting to raise taxes which they’ve sworn to God…I mean Norquist, that they will never do. Obama holds the winning hand on this and all Boehner can do is issue empty threats.

funksands : CL, I would agree with that. For example, I’ve seen 4 or 5 polls now that people would rather have frigging voucher care instead of a Medicare advisory board trying to control costs. If you aren’t aware of where people’s heads are, you gut your argument

choicelady : funk – Baucus is indeed a Bad Dog.

choicelady : When the ACA was up for its vote, there were about 10 Blue Dogs in Congress that were definitely uncertain. My constituents all went to talk with them and explain, kindly but forcefully, why passing the ACA was critical. CA wound up with a 100% YES vote – and it had a lot to do with being approached respectfully by constituents and advocates. We DID turn them to YES. It can be done – but berating them is NOT the way.

KQµårk 死神 : Funk that’s a great example and I would say that’s my delineation point as well.

AdLib : CL – The RW have no monopoly on elitism and ignorance, plenty of folks on the Left with their noses in the air and full of entitlement and superiority. I would say that there may be a bigger percentage of these types on the Right because the GOP only has anger and bigotry to hold itself together as a party but I’ll never forget the oppression of the Politically Correct on the Left in the recent past.

choicelady : AdLib – see? More Bad Dogs. I agree that they can be cowardly. I also see those who – like the two I turned on single payer until holy hell broke loose – WILL do the right thing EVEN when they have doubts. But when we trash them, they cannot sustain a “progressive” position when we gave them nothing to stand on. Moving conservative Dems takes a lot of finesse. If Progressives are unwilling to do the work, we will get nowhere because the Blue Dogs with good hearts STILL have to be able to talk serious issues with their constituents.

KQµårk 死神 : Exactly CL I’m not letting all blue dogs off the hook either. They need to support the moderate thinking in the Democratic Party at least. Having a Machin does not help much when he runs away from the president and most Dems. And it’s never forgivable to be a corporately owned Dem left right or center.

funksands : CL Baucus is reliably awful when it comes to issues dealing with pharma, oil, and insurance and banks.

Sabreen60 : Ok let me try that again. Geez, I only had one Tequila…would he be willing to WORK….

choicelady : funk – I don’t know Tester’s record, but Baucus waxes and wanes on issues and is unreliable. I think he’d go in the “Bad Dog” pen.

AdLib : My issue with Blue Dogs is how much farther they seem to go in pandering to the right than Dems on the left do to their constituency. Some of these Blue Dogs look so forced as they intentionally attack the Dem Pres just to pander while it seems so insincere. They do often seem more focused on staying in power than standing on their principles. I say that in general, not saying all Blue Dogs are like that but many seem that way to me.

Sabreen60 : AdLib did you guys hear what Boehner said today when asked if would be willing to world with President Obama should he be re-elected? In essence he said hell no and quoted some private financial firm that said (paraphrase) raising taxes would harm the middle class.

funksands : Is Jon Tester a good blue dog? He’s persona non grata with some lefties, but voted D down the line 92% of the time. I would argue his counterpart Baucus is a BAD blue dog

choicelady : Sabreen – those ar BAD Blue Dogs. GOOD Blue Dogs begin where their constitutents are then help them move. It requires respect and patience. But we who don’t live in those districts have to have respect and patience, too. Do NOT get me started on the “progressives” I spent time with studying the most amazing industrial coop in the world – who brought their prejudices, their lack of reflection, and their VERY Ugly American whiny values to Spain to bitch, piss, and moan about how awful things were because they did not listen and did not learn and cannot see beyond their own box. It was very eye opening to see they were as dismal about this incredible place as they are about everything in the US.

KQµårk 死神 : CL the real logical fallacy is that one size fits all. Too many progressives think if you run a progressive in every race being progressive is so great and so obvious that they can’t lose even if the constituency is more conservative. But alas this is exactly how the GOP base gets it wrong too. Look at

AdLib : Murph – That is a great line, it says so much so succinctly. Calling Akin nuts without saying it explicitly.

funksands : “Lords of Denial” I like that one.

AdLib : Murph – That is fascinating and great to hear. Imagine if the sensible Repubs out there came to the same conclusion and THEY practiced the kind of bipartisanship their pols won’t. They could change Congress in a way that works for them far better and us too.

KQµårk 死神 : CL I guess I look at it if you are still undecided you are kinda stupid because the choice is so obvious.

choicelady : KQ – we are on the same page. I have lived too long with farmers on the left of me, steelworkers on the right to NOT get that it takes time to move people, and if you’re elected by middle of the road folks you need to LISTEN to them and move only slightly ahead of them, encouraging them to think a bit differently every week. It’s just stupid for progressives to impose their values and pretend they have the right. The Progressive Caucus is only 14% of the entire Congress. That ought to tell us something.

AdLib : CL – Love that analogy, so true! Romney is so blind and ignorant, he has no idea how his words and actions are perceived and with him being surrounded by the Lords of Denial from the Bush Admin, they are no doubt building up this delusional scenario where Romney just destroys Obama in the first debate and the public suddenly forgets how much they don’t like him and see him as “strong” and a winner and want him to be their President. Instead of people seeing him as premeditated and programmed with manipulative BS, as I think most will see him. I do think the pundits are rooting for him to make it a close horse race and some will give him props for being so hostile and delivering his pre-processed quips but the public won’t be buying that.

Sabreen60 : CL, It took me a long time to accept the fact that Blue Dogs who represent conservative districts or states are a fact of life. However, what I still have a hard time coming to terms with are those who put their job security above really important issues. There have been instances where the public is squarely for a certain issue, but Blue Dogs vote with the Repubs anyway. That drives me crazy.

KQµårk 死神 : I guess I’m old fashioned CL. I think pols should represent their constituents and blue dogs in general represent people who are more conservative. I never understood why progressive don’t understand that. Now that being said I’m frustrated by them like other more liberal folks but I do understand why they are the way they are.

choicelady : KQ – I think Romney has tapped out the Stupid People vote already. I don’t think there are any “undecided” stupid people. They went over to RMONEY ages ago. So he has nothing to gain.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- favorite line from this morning: “It’s not what he said that is the problem. It’s what he believes that is the problem,” McCaskill said.

choicelady : Murph darlin – you THINK young. Best thing I could say to you.

choicelady : I am a damned radical who respects GOOD blue dogs. If that’s where your folks are, that’s where YOU should be, using your position to educate and move people forward NOT beating them over the head and scaring them away. I find it interesting that GOP folks think she’s OK – I think she’s OK. Not great, not progressive, but honorably in the middle. Her folks are in the middle. THAT is all right.

AdLib : KQ – I think Obama will be well rested and prepared for the debate. It’s the most important one of the year, he knows that if he can put Romney away or deny him any meaningful positives coming out of it, the MSM will be writing Romney’s obits.

KQµårk 死神 : While Romney the robot can seem a bit inhuman at the same time he can regurgitate allot of BS and some stupid people may be impressed by that.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL….30’s WoW!

MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib- There were 50 people at my McCaskill meeting tonight. In the first organizing meetings we had two or three. 11 of the group were GOP stalwarts who I know….they are SOOOOO angry. Claire is a Blue Dog and they want to show their support for her. They beleive they have been betrayed on all sides.

AdLib : Murph – I think Claire did very well in the debate against this loony and really looking forward to the deadline passing and the big guns coming out! Everyone but Akin seems to know what’s going on and what’s going to happen. He’s such a clueless idiot, he no doubt thinks he can just BS his way through it all to win.

choicelady : AdLib – great observation I think. Romney is so without a core that yes, he’d do precisely that and think he’d done well. You KNOW my fave photo of the parakeet pecking the cat’s tail and the caption: For one bright, shining moment, parakeet thought he’d won. Romney is the parakeet.

KQµårk 死神 : Like I said on the thread AdLib I just hope Obama get’s enough sleep. He can get a but ‘ah’ and ‘umy’ if he’s tired and you know how style is more important to the media.

AdLib : My vaporized comment was about how, if Romney goes vicious against Obama as we assume he will, he will be pursuing the whipping up of his base that already supports him and alienating swing voters who will decide the election. Yes, some of the braindead MSM pundits will applaud him for looking “strong” and “forceful” but the voters who count don’t like haters.

KQµårk 死神 : I hope I don’t offend you by calling you Smurf by the way IDK it’s my silly way of abbreviating your moniker.

MurphTheSurf3 : KR- Holy Smiley Face! Interested in the role of Robin (or his older self NightWing?)

choicelady : Murph – thought you were in your 30s. Cannot explain why.

MurphTheSurf3 : CHOICE…62!

KQµårk 死神 : smurf

choicelady : Murph – gosh. You’re older than I thought!

MurphTheSurf3 : THE GOP ROVIAN AGENTS OF DOOM HAVE FOUND US….DRAT…TO THE BATCAVE…..!!!! DA DA DA DA DA DA BAAAAT MAN!

choicelady : RAts Ad Lib – sorry you lost the comment!

choicelady : Murph – I never loved Todd more…

KQµårk 死神 : Hey Sally get in the water’s fine.

KQµårk 死神 : CL I guess you answered my question.

choicelady : KQ – yes, it did for me. I say it’s GOP gremlins in the works.

AdLib : Just lost a long comment too!

AdLib : Sorry for the outage, our web host has been having problems today.

KQµårk 死神 : Back did the site go down for everyone?

choicelady : Are we stuck again?

choicelady : Murph!!! How are you! Where are you?

KQµårk 死神 : Hey smurf sup?

KQµårk 死神 : I just don’t see how Romney can’t tie himself up in knots now. He’s said so many opposite things now nothing he said will look sincere. So he’ll just try for one liners and not try to win an honest debate.

MurphTheSurf3 : Hello all-+— Meeting tonight with the McCaskill crowd…..keepin g things low key until the last Akin deadline passes AND THEN OUT COME THE BIG GUNS….this guy is certifiably crazy…really.

choicelady : What he siad

AdLib : KQ – I agree that Romney will go hard against Obama on the economy but that isn’t strong enough to change the view of him as unfit. And his attacks are all based on lies so they will just set up Obama to pull a Clinton and explain that to the public…further exposing Romney as a liar.

KQµårk 死神 : tc sabreen

KQµårk 死神 : What she said.

KQµårk 死神 : Like all things Romney all his attacks will be tactical like trying to get the best one liners and little strategic planning.

choicelady : I think Romney will follow Scott Brown and try to be vicious. I think he thinks it will turn people against Obama is he calls him out as a radical. Obama’s calm and clear presentation will offset that and make Romney nuts – but I think it’s going to be a bare knuckles fight on Romney’s part. They just don’t know any better.

KQµårk 死神 : I think Romney will go hard on calling Obama a divider and failed on the economy.

AdLib : See you then, Sabreen!

Sabreen60 : BBLater

AdLib : KQ – But Bush didn’t have the popular vote in 2000 and he fought viciously and dirty to steal the Presidency.

AdLib : So, what could the Romney camp possibly be planning for the first debate that would change the momentum of the election? Will he veer sharply to the middle? Go viciously after Obama? What do you think their strategy is? After all, this may be his final chance to change things. If he fares poorly in the first debate, the declaration may be made that he’s lost and the others might be moot.

KQµårk 死神 : AL you still need the people behind you and I think just think Bush had a big enough popular vote lead that they people were not behind Kerry. Meaning people would think Kerry was just playing politics.

AdLib : KQ – I still think Kerry blew it by giving up on correcting the rigging in OH, all indications are that he actually won the state and would have been President. Gore made a huge mistake on this as well, not asking for a full recount in FL, just in the districts that favored him but how was he to have known the SCOTUS would shut down recounts and crown Bush President?!

AdLib : CL – Very poignant. Those who have suffered at the hands of vicious, torturing tyrants are in the strongest position to hold them accountable.

KQµårk 死神 : Absolutely it penetrated social media but like usual the MSM gave it a big MEH.

AdLib : KQ – Just saw a segment on Maddow where she said her Facebook traffic on sharing her story on Repubs voting down the Vets jobs bill was enormous. It’s a story that has really resonated out there and has been shared a lot. Add that together with all their other horrendous stuff and Romney and the Repub image is worse and worse. I’m not betting on it but I think it is a distinct possibility that Dems could take back the House or at least get close enough to take it back in 2014…allowing Obama to at least have a couple of years to get a lot done…as long as Senate Dems vote to limit the filibuster.

KQµårk 死神 : Yeah AdLib those would be one of those circumstances where if the GOP stole the state it would be so out of line with the polls there would be outrage. I know folks including me thought Kerry had a good case in OH but the problem was even if he won OH Kerry would have lost the popular vote. This time around if the GOP fixed a couple few states it’s likely Obama will still have a big popular vote lead in the few to several million.

choicelady : KQ – the Twitter universe is agog over the voting down of VA help. It would be terrific if vets everywhere actually learned that it was the GOP who voted AGAINST them. Anyone with a reach into the world of veterans needs to make this clear.

choicelady : While in Spain we went to see “Guernica” and also all the other Civil War art. It was unbelieveable – their version of Abu Ghraib in drawing after drawing. It was heartbreaking! My husband pointed out the experience under Franco had a LOT to do with why the Spanish courts have indicted Bush and Cheney on torture. It is my understanding that because of the international impact of the Spanish ruling, neither Bush nor Cheney can leave the US ever again – they can and will be arrested if they set foot outside the US. That may not seem like a lot – but it’s HUGE to me!

KQµårk 死神 : Going under the radar a bit was the biggest outrage of the week brought about by the GOP in the Senate. How on earth can you vote against vets getting jobs and get away with it?

AdLib : Funk – As for PA, Obama’s lead is in the double digits, if the exit polling shows that and the results show Romney winning, it will be chaos and fraud will be proven by Obama’s lawyers, that would take way too much rigging to hide.

KQµårk 死神 : Exactly AdLib one of the biggest problems with Romney’s 47% comments is he never even tried to apologize because his adolescent view of life does not allow him to.

AdLib : Funk – VA would be one to watch closely but Obama’s lead there is growing pretty big, it would take such an enormous rigging, I don’t know if that’s even possible.

AdLib : CL – Par for the course, those on the RW have no concept of what it means to admit mistakes, they think only fools acknowledge realities they don’t like. Which is what got Obama elected and will get him re-elected. Wonder how Cheney will like that reality that he can’t avoid?

KQµårk 死神 : Ah funk we want to hear a story too.

choicelady : funk – you’re a great Dad.

funksands : BRB Story time

KQµårk 死神 : Thanks funk did not know that.

funksands : Florida however will only do the audit after the election is over and the election is certified.

KQµårk 死神 : But sure funk if it came down to one state like OH or FL again the GOP could get away with it.

choicelady : AdLib – could not agree about Ann more.

funksands : Ad, Virginia and Pennsylvania are the only ones with pure electronic voting with not paper trail or independent audit of the electronic tally at the end. Florida/Ohio have a mix of electronic and paper, but supposedly have a independent audit of the machines at the end.

AdLib : CL – As for Ann Coulter, I can only hope that skeleton is joined by others of the GOP Living Dead to push the GOP even farther right and help marginalize it further as a longer term minority party of wackjobs.

choicelady : ADLib – I hope you’re right! As in “correct”, not the political extreme, of course…

KQµårk 死神 : funk allot of it will depend on how it’s done too. At this point the GOP would have to fix more than one state, perhaps they would need as many as three or four now to change the election. I just think that would be too noticeable to not generate outrage.

AdLib : CL – Look how Repub races around the country are moving for Obama. If by Nov., the race is all but over, what motivation will Repubs have to vote (aside from the frothing racists)? And Dems will revel happily in voting as part of a winning crowd.

choicelady : Speaking of WMDs, Cheney was here yesterday (along with Arianna) in one of our speakers’ forums. He insists Saddam had WMDs or, if he didn’t, he would have soon, and so the invasion was perfectly OK. All these years, all this evidence, and the Voldemort clone is still pretending they did nothing wrong. No – I did NOT pony up the $195 it took to see these people.

KQµårk 死神 : Exactly AdLib and I monitor that bubble a little as you know. And even inside that bubble there are huge doubts about Romney. I’ve just noticed in general even on more neutral sites that the roar of the right wing is muted allot.

funksands : KQ, I don’t think so. I think it will simply drive more people into cynical apathy. The reason why is that the corporate media won’t pursue it, won’t investigate it.

AdLib : Funk – Which swing states have paperless electronic voting?

AdLib : CL – Repubs are accustomed to living in their Fox News and DC bubbles, they truly do believe that they can make any lie a reality because it has worked many times before (WMDs in Iraq anyone?). However, the public is somewhat more sophisticated about propaganda than they were pre-Bush though still vulnerable to it as the vilification of the ACA and the 2010 elections proved. In this case, they sense Romney is a fraud and can see him exposed as a greedy, elitist liar every week for months. People are making up their minds and tired of the ongoing negative BS. I do think it’s over for Romney now because of that, though it is possible for him to make it closer before Nov.

choicelady : Everyone – I do not know who set up that video at the Romney fund raiser, but I DO know he/she did a huge public service. I am grateful to that person for having the guts to record the REAL vision of Romney and his America.

KQµårk 死神 : funk that’s my nightmare too. But if the polls show a say 3-5 point win for Obama and he loses I think their will be something close to civil war.

funksands : Romney needed to be ahead going into the debates. He’s not and his campaign is spooked.

choicelady : funk – you are right to be worried. We cannot let down anywhere over any issue.

KQµårk 死神 : Where did that ‘a’ come from bloody NSA.

choicelady : AdLib – I sure hope you’re right that the GOP will stay home thanks to Romney. Ann Coulter will bask in the glow of being right – she said if they pick Romney they will lose, but she is SO WRONG that Christie would have won. He’d have been brought low LONG before this. He is unable to conjure up a single empathic relationship with anyone and would have imploded in his arrogance long ago.

funksands : Ad its true, I just have a lot of fear. 25% of all ballots cast nationwide will be on electronic machines with no papertrail.

KQµårk 死神 : CL I think the Dems that were motivated early were because they liked Obama but with Romney’s performance on the national stage now Dems who were on the fence have a good disdain for Romney. Polls a showing any enthusiasm gap for Romney is gone.

choicelady : KQ – these guys are SO stupid they can say day is night and believe it. They think we ARE stupid. It’s their undoing.

AdLib : Funk – I don’t know, seems to me that Dems are really fired up now and anxious to vote and beat the Repubs. It’s the Repubs who I think will be more discouraged and stay home.

choicelady : funk – LOL!!! Yup – that was my party.

AdLib : Hey Sabreen!

AdLib : Funk – I think it’s looking like the last and only resort the Repubs have left, suppression of Dem voters. However, suppression can only affect small percentage swings and even if they were effective to a degree, the kinds of leads Obama is holding would be too big to be reversed by GOP voter suppression. At the same time, most voter ID laws have been atopped by the courts and I’ll bet the PA one will be as well. And the Obama team has already brought a slew of lawyers on board to go after voter suppression on election day.

funksands : Very stupid. And often not wrong

choicelady : AdLib – the eels were a mistake. My husband said they were good BEFORE he knew what they were. I like the steak idea a lot better!

KQµårk 死神 : That was great to see CL. Of course he lied about lying and said it was a ‘mixed reaction’. How stupid do they think people are?

funksands : CL, smug, self-satisfied and reeking of cured meats.

choicelady : He Sabreen! How are you?

choicelady : funk – I was with a number of smug, self satisfied Dems in Spain, and your concern is very real. The pressure on us to GOTV is huge. Too many people think they don’t have any responsibility to vote.

KQµårk 死神 : hi sabreen. Yeah Queen Ann is not helping Romney much either.

funksands : Hi Sabreen!

Sabreen60 : Hi folks. 47% STOP IT!!!

KQµårk 死神 : Yup AdLib right now Romney is like a witness who has been impeached a George Anthony if you will.

funksands : Does anyone think that Democrats motivation ebbs a bit because they think Romney is done for? It really makes me nervous.

choicelady : I saw that Ryan got booed today at the AARP meeting he addressed – people walked out and jeered. He was SHOCKED that elders did not think his “voucher” program and 401K ideas were cool.

AdLib : CL – I will pass on the baby eels. I remember a meal of fire roasted steak and asparagus that was just delicious.

KQµårk 死神 : Agreed funk but I think that only affects down ticket now.

AdLib : KQ – Here’s what I’m thinking, Romney has established that he has no core and will do or say anything to get elected…and a majority recognize that. So no matter what he says or does, it will be seen as a cynical ploy to win the election, even in the unlikely case that it was genuine. Once you destroy your credibility, you can’t convince anyone to change their minds about you.

choicelady : AdLib – I saw some polls that indicate the House is definitely in play now that Romney has tanked his chances. People are PISSED at the GOP characterization of their being “lazy” and selfish if they are on Social SEcurity or any other plan.

funksands : I think the real race is between how many Republican votes Romney suppresses and how many Republican Governors suppress.

KQµårk 死神 : I think the Senate is solid now and for the first time think it might be possible to take back the House too. Romney’s comments defined the entire GOP.

choicelady : funk and AdLib – I never wanted to go to Spain, and now I’m in love. It’s wonderful! BAsque country is absolutely its own thing. Did not get to Barcelona (though i have an article published in Catalan, brag brag) so that is still left to do, but I think we saw a LOT in just a few days before settling into the Basque country for our study tour. I loved it all. EXCEPT the food. I honestly did not like most of it, and I am NOT fussy – there was an odor about the cured meats (ham, salami, etc.) that was to me absolutely awful. Nobody else had that experience, so don’t go by my judgment. The Basque food was much better. I DO like tapas. Except the baby eels…

AdLib : And how about the Romney coat tails that are dragging down Repubs in Congressional races? Could the Dems retake The House?

KQµårk 死神 : That’s pretty much my feelings AdLib. I just don’t see how he gets over the image he created for himself.

AdLib : My proposition is that, no matter what unfolds between now and Nov, when someone has established themselves unfit for the Presidency of the United States, you can’t vote for him no matter what.

funksands : I just can’t get over the impression that people just aren’t going to be motivated to get out the vote for Romney. I don’t think he can do anything to lose their vote, but he’s done plenty to discourage them showing up. That’s why he’s polling even in national polls, but losing in every other measurable category.

KQµårk 死神 : CL I’m the same way but this is really the worst thing since Ford said Eastern Europe was not dominated by the Soviets.

KQµårk 死神 : Yup something beyond major would have to happen now. Romney has solidified himself as the stooge we thought he was.

choicelady : KQ – I never take it for granted. But yes – I think Rmoney killed himself with that glib dismissal of ordinary people. I cannot see how he can survive this.

AdLib : KQ – What do you think? Has Romney cemented in the majority’s minds that he just isnt Presidential material?

AdLib : CL – Sounds gorgeous! Haven’t been there, been to Barcelona and loved the Gaudi architecture and of course the food but Basque country sounds fantastic.

funksands : CL, I am really jealous. Spain is on my short list of “must-visits”

KQµårk 死神 : So is the horse race over for good?

choicelady : Hey KQ! Lovely to see you!

choicelady : The weather was warm and nice in Madrid and Granada. It was cool and foggy in Basque country. I’ve never seen anything so lovely as that northern area – almost Tyrolean in architecture, incredibly steep hills, very rocky – gorgeous. Was in Arrasate, about 35 Km SE of Bilbao, then to San Sebastian. Many trips up mountain road – one lane with two lanes of traffice GLEEP – in the fog and rain. Incredible beauty and terrifying experiences!

AdLib : Funk – The thing is, unless you watch the news networks or are in swing states, not so much campaign madness to have to fend off.

funksands : Hi KQ

funksands : I remember being out of the country during the 2008 primaries. It was a genuine relief to be spared for a while

AdLib : Hey KQ!

AdLib : Funk – You should see my 2nd place trophy from softball last season!

KQµårk 死神 : Hey gang.

choicelady : funk – never regret being one after. Remember the adage: early bird gets the worm. SECOND mouse gets the cheese.

AdLib : CL – Well, they have wonderful wines too! How was the weather? How did the US news of the election look from over there?

choicelady : AdLib – I am thrilled to be home in time for the video release. I scanned great numbers of Spanish papers for US news, but that would not have survived translation nearly well enough. Glad it broke AFTER I got back!

funksands : I’m the second to arrive. Story of my life… Hi CL

AdLib : Hey Funk!

funksands : Hi!

choicelady : Believe it or not, no sangria was to be had. I drank a LOT of vino blanco, but sangria appears to be, well, an AMERICAN drink not on their menus. I was in Madrid, Granada, and the Basque country – no sangria anywhere. BAby eels? Yes. Sangria? Nowhere.

AdLib : You missed a bit while you were gone but you’re here to enjoy the Romney video and Obama’s building a growing lead!

AdLib : Welcome back, CL! SO good to have you at The Planet and on Vox again! Saw a couple of comments from you along the way. Was it warm over there? How was the sangria? Answer the last question first.

choicelady : The 47% says hi to you and everybody. I’m baaaaack from Spain – or at least 47% of me is. The rest? Gradually returning, too. Hope everyone is well? Missed you all and Vox whilst I was overseas.

AdLib : We could be only one debate away from Romney being declared a clear loser of the Presidential election.

AdLib : In this new Cameron disaster film, the SS Romney is hit by 47% of an iceberg and sinks. There is also a subplot about a very wealthy man trying to take valuables away from a poor couple.

AdLib : I hear James Cameron is developing a new spectacular disaster movie entitled, “Romney!” with the catch phrase, “I’m entitled to be King of the World!”

AdLib : Don’t forget to say “47 percent” or “hi” when you arrive!

AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. See you then!