• AdLib : Looks like it’s about that time now to wrap up Vox Populi for the night. Thanks to all for another rousing evening. Sleep well Sabreen and Sally! Have a great weekend and hope to see you here next week!

  • Sabreen60 : Nite everyone. Have a great week and behave!!!

  • SallyT : Sabreen, I understand your opinion. I don’t care for name calling either. However, I have heard nice names too. I keep listening because I wanted to see if his opinions would change with time and they did. Some leave the fold to come back later and even a stronger supporter.

  • choicelady : SAbreen – Deaniac is great at that, and our own AdLib nails stuff tight as a tick as well.

  • Sabreen60 : CL, I agree. I visit many blogs and am always learning. Sometimes budgetary issues make me see spots. Deaniac can break these subjects down in such a way that even I can understand them. :)

  • choicelady : AdLib – you’re on!

  • AdLib : Night CL, have a wonderful weekend! See ya then, I’ll bring the martinis!

  • choicelady : Well all – I’m heading to bed. I have houseguests arriving this weekend. Have to shovel out. (OK – it’s really not THAT bad.) Have a lovely weekend, and let’s get together next week, too? I’ll bring the chips, OK? ‘Night all!

  • AdLib : CL – Yes, those on the left who criticize shouldn’t be treated as similar at all to those who throw emotional and absolutist tantrums. We don’t tolerate it from those on the Right, we shouldn’t tolerate it from those on the Left. Yes, we can criticize and disagree with Obama and many other Dems but to become extremists, hurling nasty namecallings and howling at being betrayed everytime you don’t get everything you want. it’s no different from the Baggers we criticize.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – that also nails it. Name calling is the last refuge of the inept. AdLib – that’s a great analysis – PBO can raise up his own two daughters but finally figured out he can’t babysit other people’s spoiled brats! PERFECT!

  • Sabreen60 : Sally, I don’t care that people disagree with PBO’s policies. I haven’t agreed with everything. I have a problem with character attacks. I have problems with pudnuts/comedian s who find it necessary to tell PBO, what, where when and how to do everything. I don’t recall them doing that with another President. I will close about Maher with this. I have watched Maher since he hosted “Politically Incorrect”. I though him to be fair minded and intelligent about most subjects. I watched during much of 2009 and some of 2010. I stopped watching him when I believed he was NOT giving a fair critique of PBO’s policies and instead decided to denigrate PBO as weak and a wimp. The same thing I heard coming from Republicans, some of whom were racist. I’m not saying Maher is a racist. I am saying that he was quick to use the term “weak” when speaking about PBO. He didn’t call Clinton “weak” when he sold out the middle class to get his first budget passed. Maybe I’m too sensitive. But anyone who resorts to name-calling usually cannot defend their accusations.

  • choicelady : Sally – what scared me for the last year or so (again, some of this came from my own Board members) was that people did not even see or acknowledge the results. It’s back today with the screamers over unemployement compensation extensions which they don’t understand. Too many on the Left are as bad as the Right about “shoot first, ask questions later.” It seems to be getting less pronounced, but it’s still a factor in “poutrage” over understanding.

  • AdLib : CL – So true, watching Obama deal with the Repubs was like watching a good parent try to deal with a roomful of nasty brats. His expectation was that when he gave them something, they would give something back but after a long while, finally resigned himself to the fact that you can’t fix other parent’s brats. He likely did a wonderful job with his daughters but might have trouble babysitting kids from a Bagger household.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – I seeeee you over there! He is very helpful, isn’t he? Between PPOV, TPV, Politicus, and some of the other blogs (I love Eclectablog for many things) I think we have many sources of info available that were not there before 2008. PPOV and the Daily Planet are all amazing. We ALL set standards of writing from evidence, not just hype. It gives readers a serious insight into reality that the hair on fire sites just never have. It’s important to be really informed, not just emotional. So I will see you there, too!

  • SallyT : And, people that thought it was wrong at the time, CL, may have voiced their disappointments. But once they saw a different approach from the bullying and lying that we had lived with through Bush, became supportive. People can change their minds with results.

  • AdLib : Bottom line for me, if Maher is going to be a strong supporter of Obama from this point forward, that’s a good thing. We’ll take everyone who wants to be on the side of the 99%. They are not the enemy, even if they used to declare themselves as such. We should come together to stand against the Repubs and their billionaire and Extremist owners.

  • choicelady : ADLib – well, he’d not be the first to speak out of both sides of his mouth. I do think the Left got brainwashed (some of the Left) over thinking Cheney set the norm. I REALLY like that Obama restored the “real adult in the room” as a standard. I delve into policy details, and I find I’m in awe of his results AND his negotiating standards. Never saw anything like it before. But if you want theater – well, he DID set the standard as “No drama Obama.” We knew that in 2008. And it was refreshing. To see someone negotiate from nerves of steel instead of bullying – wow. Awesome!

  • AdLib : Sabreen, I too like Deaniac83 and TPV.

  • Sabreen60 : CL, I love Deaniac83 over at The People’s View. He was invaluable to me during the debt ceiling made-up crisis. If fact, he’s great on unraveling most issues.

  • AdLib : You can see here, Maher saw the deal only as caving into Repubs on the Bush tax cuts.

  • AdLib : CL – Maher didn’t say that all the time: “And, you know, for him to be talking about compromising with the Republicans on the Bush tax cuts, where — where are they going to draw a line in the sand? When are they going to remember who they are? I’m so disappointed and I still like him and still think there’s hope. He could get it yet, but I’m so disappointed that he just seems to be another in a long line of Democrats that come across as wimpy and wussy and whatever word you want to as describe to it of not standing up for what they believe in enough.” «link»

  • SallyT : I don’t live in myths and I do believe that people can disagree but still be supportive. Times call for different approaches. The same won’t always work because situations change. Some people will be happy and others won’t. However, you still can support someone you don’t totally agree with because in the long run they are the better.

  • choicelady : Sally – I’m stunned that Maher actually understood and said that Obama did the right thing on the tax cut extension. Good for him!

  • choicelady : Sabreen – in the lame duck agreement with extension for the rich, he got 14% for them and 86 % of that agreement for the people! Center for Budget & Policy Priorities told the truth on that – and got TRASHED by lefties and lost a lot of funding!!! So even the truth was overshadowed by ideology! The same thing happened with the debt ceiling agreement when Obama held critical social programs immune from the automatic cuts. He got no credit because no one botheed to understand. This is seriously damaging when ideology trumps fact.

  • SallyT : I heard Maher say that he knew that the President had to go with the tax cut to get the unemployment. Sure he wanted it the other way like lots of people did, even on here, but he agreed that he knew it was how it had to be done. Sorry, but I did hear him say that.

  • AdLib : Sally – I’ve criticized Obama, I was very upset at him during the HCR debate and I think he handled it badly (thanks to Rahm!). There have been other issues too for me where I oppose him and his position. That is totally cool. But calling him names, saying that I’d never vote for him again or wouldn’t have in the first place, insisting that he is a failure, etc., the words and actions of the purists who hammered him because he didn’t do everything they wanted, that’s kind of crossing the line from criticism to insults. Maher called him a “wuss”, a “wimp”, “spineless” and more. He trashed Obama often, not based on real issues but because Obama wasn’t as strong as Cheney and rammed through everything Maher wanted. I just see that as way past criticism and more into egocentric tantrums.

  • SallyT : Maybe when you are coming from an administration that was bullying and got their way, right or wrong, you think that is what it takes. Obama has shown another approach and people see that can work too now. But, they had to see results first. However, even the President has realized that he has to take a stand now and again with these people to get it done. I do feel we will see a totally different Obama in his next term. Fairweather friends? Maybe but friends with money, fair or otherwise, help.

  • choicelady : Sally – I guess I think the belief that LBJ etc. got mad and got what they wanted is just not accurate. I have an acquaintance who believes the solid south Congress voted for the civil rights bill in ’64 because LBJ pounded his desk and made them do it. Well – they voted NO. Even Al Gore SENIOR voted against it! We live by myth more than anything, and it’s doing damage.

  • Sabreen60 : CL, exactly. Case in point: Maher and others accused PBO of caving because of the tax cuts to the rich. They never talked about the fact that PBO got unemployment compensation, middle class tax cuts, DADT and START. They accused him of being weak and caving. Now either they knew better or they were lying. They had to have known that the Teabaggers were coming into Congress in January and none of those things would have passed. But Maher and others just said that PBO caved to the Repubs. I could give other examples, but we know them.

  • SallyT : I think he was giving an opinion that many won’t appreciate but others were also saying that they wished the President would get more agressive. Many have said that about Congress and the Dems. People can change their minds and they can disagree with the President but still support him. I think that Maher is supporting him verbally and financially. I hope there will be more to do just that.

  • choicelady : Sally – here and over at The People’s View, at Politicususa and other sites, the writers tend to be policy wonks who dig into issues. What happens with Maher and others is they look at superficial stuff and jump to conclusions, and that’s OK if they will listen when called out on accuracy. What makes us mad is when they won’t, when – as Lawrence O’Donnell says – they make up their own facts. That is maddening. Hell – I have BOARD members who do that! Some people just like to be mad. But it really does harm when they have a spotlight. Wanting Obama to “pound the bully pulpit” is silly when he got so much accomplished steadily and without that. He would NOT have gotten more with anger and his own bullying. He’d have gotten less. That is a sign of weakness, not strength, but we all wanted revenge on the Right and don’t feel we got it.

  • AdLib : CL – Agreed, I am not focused on being angry at Maher though I do see him as you describe, as a fairweather friend. It’s a good thing that former purists and emoprogs are abandoning their sabotage of their own party. Now, it’s the GOP’s turn to blow itself up.

  • AdLib : Here’s some more Obama namecalling by Maher: “During his appearance on CNN’s Fareed Zakaria GPS today, Bill Maher said that he felt President Obama was acting ‘wimpy’ and ‘wussy’ lately. “I’m just so disappointed that he seems to be another in a long line of Democrats that come across as wimpy, and wussy, and whatever word you want to ascribe to it, and not standing up for what they believe in enough,” Maher said. He also joked that “He looks beaten down….I thought when we elected him, as a comedian, two years in I’d be making jokes about what a gangster he was.””

  • SallyT : He has said that he likes that the President has gotten more aggressive and so have many others. Many didn’t like the Goldman Sach stuff. Doesn’t matter really.

  • choicelady : AdLib – Sally: Maher may have been a fairweather friend, but at least he’s a FRIEND now. I think we can say that for now, he’s doing the right thing even if we did not think so before.

  • AdLib : Sally – At the same time, I do watch his show and I am pleased that he’s stopped the attacks and is atoning for them with his financial support.

  • AdLib : Sally – Read my comment below, there’s a link too, where Maher insults and attacks Obama, as he did on his show for quite a while…until Obama and the economy started coming back.

  • choicelady : Sally – you’re right. If he’s standing with the president now, then good for him!

  • SallyT : I have watched everyone of his shows and he’s stand up acts and he is for Obama always. He is a comic so he does make jokes. People don’t always agree about the President, nor should they. The President needs to hear from everyone not just yes people. Maher has the money and he is giving his support. There are a lot of people that might not have been for the President but if they are now that is wonderful! We need everyone!

  • Sabreen60 : Sally if you like Maher that’s fine. I don’t think anyone is telling you not to like him. I’m just saying in the beginning he was a supporter of PBO. Then he turned and joined the other firebaggers. He his criticisms weren’t based on the whole truth. He call PBO weak and accused him of caving. He NEVER came back and admitted to being wrong. Therefore, I think he’s a worm.

  • AdLib : Whoops, let me try again with the link: «link»

  • AdLib : Here’s a taste of Bill maher when Obama was down: “Maher was not about to let the audience have their comfort zone. He sneered at Obama’s giveback to the banks, doing a wicked caricature of Obama handing the billions out to A.I.G. and Goldman Sachs. He was also deeply critical –and hilariously so — of Obama’s failure to press home his agenda like Dick Cheney and George Bush were able to do despite what the electorate thought. When Bill Maher, the most liberal stand-up comedian in America, is attacking Obama, then the President should be concerned., When he is comparing him unfavorably to Dick Cheney, then he had better be REALLY concerned. «link» central.com/stor y/news/periscope /bill-maher-slam s-obama-and-draw s-gasps-from-cro wd-82324907.html #ixzz1nMpOCvu3

  • choicelady : Sally – actually, the fact you found him supportive makes me breathe a tad easier. We trust you on that. Just never actually heard or read it ourselves. We will make you our touchstone.

  • SallyT : Okay, I could pull up things that he has said but I know it won’t make a difference. So, I will just be quite.

  • choicelady : AdLib – Maher always makes me think of Rick J. – slimy opportunist – per our conversation this afternoon.

  • Sabreen60 : AdLib, CL I totally agree.

  • AdLib : Sabreen – I used to like Maher before realizing that his “principles” were just what would get him laid or high or get the cool people to like him. You can tell someone’s true character when the chips are down and when they were for Obama, he was joining the rest of the weasels in slamming Obama and calling him names. I think it’s fine for a SuperPAC to take his money and spend it on Obama’s campaign but I still see Maher like Arianna, an opportunist whose only loyalty is to his own ego.