AdLib : Well, looks like it’s time to wrap this edition of Vox Populi. Since we started early, I think this may have set the record for our longest edition! Thanks to all for a great evening, have a great weekend all and hope to see you here next week!
AdLib : Night Kes!!! Have a wonderful weekend!
kesmarn : Have a great weekend, all!
AdLib : Night Patsy and Oatsy and Paysy! You’re 3 times cleverer than me!
kesmarn : Paysy oats, and does eat oats and little lambs eat ivy? I think it’s time for me to go to bed too! G’night all. And yes,Walker will go!
AdLib : Anyone want to guess if the Walker recall will succeed?
PatsyT : I have to pack it in myself… Love to you all…
PatsyT : Nighty Night Emerald!
kesmarn : G’night,Em!
AdLib : Night Emerald! Lots of fun! Have a great weekend!
kesmarn : PAYSY!! I didn’t even notice I typed that! What about Oatsy?
PatsyT : Oh yeah Oatsy!
kesmarn : Apparently there are all sorts of dirty tricks going on at the Lucas County Board of Elections…comp uter hacking and lawsuits and all.
AdLib : I still like Oatsy!
PatsyT : What was I last week?
Emerald1943 : Hey everyone…it’s after 1am here and I need shut-eye! Thanks for a great discussion tonight! I’ve enjoyed it so much! Wish we could do Vox Populi more than once per week! Have a great night, all!
PatsyT : Oh Boy I get another new name !!! Paysy!!
kesmarn : Paysy, I’m still a little wary on those machines, but this election was encouraging.
AdLib : Em – Yes, Cher’s article did a fantastic job on this! Even so, I can’t relate to the mindset.
ChrisR266 : Kes: I think Husted is really trying, I do. But those machines can and have been compromised too easily. I’d rather vote some other way.
kesmarn : Oh yes, me too Chris! It was Jen Brunner who cleaned up voting in Ohio. God,she was amazing.
ChrisR266 : I see google left bing at home this crawl.
ChrisR266 : Kes: I still watch that printout with each vote I cast. The memory runs deep.
kesmarn : Chris,I didn’t realize Columbus had had probs with machines not printing. Too bad! Ours seemed to work well.
ChrisR266 : We had some problems down here, Kes. Many machines would not print. But no way was anyone going to try to do what they did in 2004–Quinnipiac made sure of that when they released their poll two weeks before the election.
PatsyT : That is a bit of hope on the Diabold thing Kes, good to know.
kesmarn : Em,I was just typing the same thing. That was a good post!
Emerald1943 : Adlib, Cher’s piece was really good to explain this.
AdLib : Night Murph! We’ll figure it out!
ChrisR266 : Evening, Murph. Nice to talk with you.
PatsyT : Nighty Night Murph!
AdLib : It amazes me that Repubs clearly demonstrate they only care about the wealthy people and the poor and middle class GOP whites keep voting for their lives to be made worse.
Emerald1943 : Murph, good night to you!
kesmarn : G’night Murph!
ChrisR266 : Right now, it is the Legislature pulling tricks, if tricks are to be pulled, not Kasich. We’ll see how low he lays.
kesmarn : One of the other good things about the Ohio results was that it made me a little more at ease about Diebold voting machines and hacking. I think if K-sick could have hacked Issue 2 and gotten away with it he would have. (I mean his people would have.)
MurphTheSurf3 : TIME TO SAY GOOD NIGHT. AdLib, get in touch I need to consult with you….vital really.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, I figured Kasich would pull some little trick. He is despicable!
AdLib : And the recall has started against Walker in WI!
ChrisR266 : Kes and Em: Kasich has to decide whether he’s going to distance himself from the state legislature, or throw in with them and their radicalism again. It will be interesting to see if he sides with the people or uses the legislature as a battering ram again.
PatsyT : Yuck I’m sick Govvy-Boy?
kesmarn : Good to know, Chris! That casts him in a little different light for me. In other words: now I know his heart can be broken.
AdLib : Em and Chris – I read that Kasich and his Repub cronies in the legislature are going to ignore the vote and try to pass many of the provisions of 5 separately. So no, they don’t care what the people want.
ChrisR266 : Kes: he surely did/does. Remember, he’s from my parts. He is from Westerville, and talked much around here about those aspirations. I have other ways of knowing this, but too detailed to discuss here. Trust me.
MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib…Dole AND 25 other senior GOP all signed on to it. Mandates that were based in privately owned insurance and medical delivery systems…..
kesmarn : He’s revving the engines in that bus of his,Em,still planning to run us down.
Emerald1943 : Kes, his statement after the returns came in was ridiculous. He gave it all the lip service about “listening to the voters” and all that crap…he didn’t mean a word of it!
kesmarn : A Hayseed Poultice.
AdLib : Em – Romney used the mandate first but I believe it was Bob Dole who came up with it as part of an alternative to “Hillarycare”. So it has deep GOP roots…but when embraced by a Dem, it’s “socialism” and “unconstitution al”.
MurphTheSurf3 : Em…Kasich might make an ok Poultice but not a POTUS.
kesmarn : The 2 new names I saw for Gov K today, Patsy: Prince John and “Govvy-Boy!”
Emerald1943 : Kes, Ed Schultz mentioned that about Kasich wanting to be POTUS.
PatsyT : Kes and Chris, I would not trust that Gov K with a fast food order. He will undoubtable be up to something.
kesmarn : Chris, you think he really had presidential aspirations? I think he might have only been their 1 time slash-and-burn guy who then planned to retire in the Cayman’s and roll around in gold bullion for the rest of his days.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, if I’m not mistaken, I believe the individual mandate WAS a repub idea to begin with. Romney did it first.
MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib…YEP to your two points. Nailed.
ChrisR266 : Murph: On the HC mandate and the GOP, we agree. It WAS their idea.l
AdLib : Murph – The GOP are the ones who came up with the HC mandate! The reason they hate it now is because Obama adopted it, that’s all. Secretly, I’m sure they’re happy for their insurance corp cronies.
MurphTheSurf3 : I am a Merlot and Gouda kind of guy but I toast you all.
ChrisR266 : Kes: I think humbled less, depressed more. He knows he will never, ever by President of the USA now. His own state won’t support him. That makes it kind of tough, ‘eh? LMAO!
Emerald1943 : Kes, he is a sneaky bastid! You guys had better watch him very closely! I have a feeling about this!
kesmarn : AdLib, I’ll take that cold one and a pickle on the side.
PatsyT : Well if you take out the S you get BM
kesmarn : Chris, do you think Kasich is really humbled or is he role-playing to buy time for his next evil scheme?
Emerald1943 : Patsy, LMAO! I like that…BSM!
ChrisR266 : Murph: I believe they would have endorsed it had they not already decided to drink the TEA.
Emerald1943 : Chris, as I said earlier, too bad Kasich can’t be recalled!
AdLib : Kes – Always have a cold one put aside for you!
PatsyT : Can we start calling the MSM the BSM ?
ChrisR266 : Em: Such is why Issue 3 was such a sham. Even Kasich admitted so the week before the election.
kesmarn : Yes, only one crazy …er …eccentric patient tonight! A good night! Hey, Patsy!
AdLib : Murph – Sure, Repubs could parse out such a campaign (keeping in mind I’m just talking about a limited period for such a campaign) but the message of the ad will be clear. Obama has things in common with all Presidents, Romney with none. He doesn’t belong in the WH.
PatsyT : Hey Kes!
Emerald1943 : Murph, cognitive dissonance???
PatsyT : The really cool thing is that they know the difference.
MurphTheSurf3 : The Health Care Mandate….that the GOP opposes this is SO BIZARRE because it is so THEM. A requirement that further enriches one of their big backers AND pays for all of those emergency room as basic care visits.
kesmarn : IO,Chris!
Emerald1943 : Kes, I hope you had a good shift! We’ve missed your comments!
ChrisR266 : Hi, Kes! OH!
PatsyT : AdLib, It’s true all the hard work you have put into this site is coming around, they (99%) are looking for stuff like this, and trusting it. unlike the BS they know is out there in the MSM
ChrisR266 : Ohio is bound by federal law. Individual mandate will be the law in Ohio.
kesmarn : Just got home from work, Em.
AdLib : EM – State managed exchanges for health insurance start up soon (2014?) and when they do, the whole issue of a mandate will be less important in those states. There will be ways for individuals to get group rates on insurance which will mitigate the main concern.
Emerald1943 : KES!!!! I wondered if you’d show up tonight! I’m so glad you’re here!
MurphTheSurf3 : Chris, Em, AdLib, et. al. I think I buy the idea that the public was not attuned to the ACA mandate issue in the election, but it illustrates the knowledge gap present even among involved voters.
kesmarn : Is there time for one quick drink before closing time?
Emerald1943 : Chris, if SCOTUS takes up the individual mandate and upholds it, what will Ohio do then?
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…really like the Being Presidential vs. Not Presidential take on this…that might be a winner….still there is a lot of quicksand there. Are comparisons to Carter possible or LBJ possible for ex.?
Emerald1943 : Chris and Murph, even though I see the necessity of having the mandate, I don’t like it either…maybe for another reason. It is nothing but a HUGE gift to the insurance industry who have done enough damage IMO! Forcing the people to buy something (expensive, no doubt) is not a good policy.
PatsyT : Em, the dem candidates are the ones most able to win and most willing to adapt their positions. IF they organize behind them. Any Repub would be the polar opposite of their concerns
ChrisR266 : Em: In fact, issue 3 is going to create a hell of a mess here because of the legal implications within the state, not without it (i.e. federal legislation).
AdLib : Patsy – I love that idea that we in the blogosphere are now the true legit media. It’s true though, I don’t rely on anything I get from anywhere but trusted online sources…includ ing blogs like ours. So, it is kind of a populist media that is following more faithfully in the steps of journalists past.
ChrisR266 : Em: I agree with you. People did not connect these two issues at all.
MurphTheSurf3 : Once more we circle back to OWS….it says a lot about the importance of populist movements- well done or not. Current events are simultaneously very worrisome and encouraging. A movement with a fugue/split personality.
Emerald1943 : Murph, the ACA thing was really not about the ACA, but it touched a nerve about the individual mandate. There are lots and lots of people who don’t want to be forced by govt. to have to buy something. I think the issues were not really connected.
AdLib : Murph – Actually, my point was not to compare Obama just to Repub Presidents but show him as fitting in with ALL Presidents in one way or another while Romney has no President who held similar policies. The message being, Obama is Presidential, Romney is not and an extremist.
ChrisR266 : Murph: Issue 3 didn’t even get enough attention from anyone to take it seriously. We saw virtually no advertising on it. It was on the ballot to bolster support for issue 2. When people found out it was toothless, they uniformly said, “then why was it on the ballot?” That is what’s coming out now. I make no claims that the electorate is all that smart. But I also don’t dismiss their ability to recognize fundamental sense and fairness.
Emerald1943 : Chris, good point! But how to make them give up their “organic” approach and actually support the Dem candidates?
Emerald1943 : Adlib, if I could influence the OWS movement, I would get them to support the President and his Jobs Act for starters. They may be wasting their only chance if they don’t vote. I can’t understand this kind of attitude where they expect change without working within the system. That’s the only way anything will happen.
ChrisR266 : AdLib: I agree with you about Obama’s recent tack. People are beginning to realize that a blanket indictment of government is not in their best interest. We do need government, and government does some really good things for all of us.
MurphTheSurf3 : Chris…a word about Ohio…a very important vote regarding the union legislation, but the same electorate voted thumbs down to Obama’s Affordable Care Act in the same election. So…..An electorate unable to focus on more than issue or connect is not so bright.
PatsyT : Oh sorry AdLib I need some clarification of your question, if that was a question.
AdLib : Em – You are right about that, many OWS people are disgusted with Dems and Repubs. I think the solution is to demonstrate, as I think Obama has been doing, that politicians can work for the 99% when they’re not blocked by the 1%’s toadies.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, yes…sad but true. So many people just don’t even look at the issues before the elections. They vote like their daddies did. And in the South, it’s worse than that. They vote for the repubs in spite of everything, because of race IMO!
AdLib : Em – It really is a degradation of democracy when commercials crafted by PR and marketing experts are what people often use to decide who to vote for. I mean, Coke has better commercials than water but that doesn’t make it a better choice.
PatsyT : Have any of you thought about this… You are the media now … the 99% is totally onto the farse of the MSM and it’s up to us to step into that roll.
ChrisR266 : Murph: You just made me spit good beer out, LMAO! Seriously? It would make good fodder for SNL, that’s for sure.
Emerald1943 : Murph, some brilliant talking head suggested that PBO was actually the repubs’ man in the White House! Infuriating!
Emerald1943 : Chris, and may the FORCE continue to be with you!
MurphTheSurf3 : Em and AdLib BUT…..such a campaign Mantra….OBAMA: THE REAL REPUBLICAN…wou ld certainly advance his bipartisan credentials and his desire to reinvent government. CHANGE!!!!
PatsyT : I would not bring it up here but I see Issa as a key for the Repubs and anything that pulls him down pulls up the 99%
ChrisR266 : Think about what happened in Ohio this week. The bastions of democratic votes in the state are Cleveland, Columbus, and Toledo. Literally three counties. Issue 2 failed in 83 of Ohio’s 88 counties. That Health insurance Issue 3 thing was only on the ballot to draw votes for Issue 2, so do the math. It would have been worse. That’s why Kasich was so down–he knows he is never, ever going to be President of the United States now. Thank the force for that.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, I REALLY hope you are right about the OWS. I hate to see them do this “organic” thing and waste the opportunity to actually effect change. Many of them are so disgusted that they want nothing to do with either party. Can’t say that I blame them to an extent.
AdLib : Patsy! Where’d you go???
PatsyT : I’m Alive!
AdLib : Chris – Well said. But this time around, the public is taking action and marching in the streets. It may be a passing fad but a majority of voters seem determined to vote in their best interests, both short term and long term.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, I think you are right about this time. It’s just that the voters have no long-term insight. They are too impatient and go more with bumper sticker slogans than what is good for the country for the long haul. 2010 showed us that.
ChrisR266 : AdLib: do you mean the public’s “lack” of action, like voting?
MurphTheSurf3 : Em-+- have to agree the “there is no such thing as being too lefty” crowd would go nuts with O as the banner waver for the Grand Old Party.
AdLib : Murph – I’m just taking as a given that the public will remain the type of voters they are, less informed than they should be and voting on their emotions instead of their best interests. Considering that, I think Obama and the Dems are in good shape this time and understandably, ended up on the wrong side of the public’s action last time.
ChrisR266 : Patsy: Really? and you emerged unscathed? LOL.
Emerald1943 : Patsy, star-crossed???
Emerald1943 : Chris, Newt can’t win. He’s got way too much heavy baggage from the 90’s…and there’s that little matter of the Tiffany’s bill!
PatsyT : How about this for a small world… Issa went to my high school in Cleveland Heights, Ohio and so did his Challenger Jerry Tetalman! «link»
ChrisR266 : Murph: right now, I wouldn’t put it past these abominations. They’d actually put one of those folks against Obama. They’d do it.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, I can just hear the screams from the professional left now!
ChrisR266 : Em: No, not quite. Cain, Romney, or the rising flavor of the week, Gingrich, cannot win. They will not win. That’s what Tuesday really told us, I think. If they were real GOPers, they would know and admit that Gingrich is sure death to the party. Waaaaaaay too many of us remember the 90s and wouldn’t vote for Gingrich if our lives depended on it.
AdLib : Consider a campaign supporting Obama that showed him aligned with all presidents from Eisenhower, Kennedy, Nixon, Carter, Reagan and GHW Bush. Then showed ROmney as the outside extremist with no policies in common with them. A through line for Obama being a President and Romney not.
Emerald1943 : Chris, who do you think is going to get the nomination?
Emerald1943 : Murph, that “better off” question gives me pause. The average voter in this country doesn’t think beyond the end of his nose. When you have people voting on emotion, you get baggers!
MurphTheSurf3 : Chris R266 – so is it Cain, Perry, Bachman, or some other idiot savant?
ChrisR266 : The audacity of a powerful senator declaring time and time again that his and his party’s only goal is to defeat Obama is starting to sink in with voters. They realize what a bankrupt and utterly offensive position that is.
MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib…re. 2010 vs. 2012. I think I agree with you but understand that you are counting on the same kind of gut level response and affective decision making that put Obama in in 2008, tossed the House in 2010, and will, hopefully, reverse itself in 2012. How do we get that consistency of governance which you have so eloquently argued for? We have an uninformed and easily swayed electorate guided by an inane question: Are you better off today than you were in ____?
Emerald1943 : Chris, does that mean you don’t think Romney has this thing sewn up?
ChrisR266 : Murph: Exactly. Which is why the mess of this year will weigh differently with voters next November, I think. Those GOPTEA idiots are going to nominate a guy that cannot win a general, and they don’t even care–they’re going to nominate him because he’s “in line with” their fringe and reactionary ideology.
Emerald1943 : Patsy, why don’t you run against Issa?
AdLib : Patsy, speaking for myself, I would support a good Dem candidate against Issa.
Emerald1943 : Murph, do I have to “see Cain”??? Oh please…not just before bedtime!
MurphTheSurf3 : ChrisR266…my concern is your concern. The GOP morph has mythologized those earlier GOP buddhas…..they are not in the minds of the GOP faithful what they really were. Any effort to demonstrate this will be viewed as a liberal/progress ive disinformation campaign….see Cain for reference.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, if I were in charge of planning the PBO campaign, I would stick to the obstruction of the repubs. This is something that every voter can recognize from their votes on the AJA.
ChrisR266 : Em: I’m a force girl, myself.
AdLib : Chris – That’s what I find so encouraging, this week’s elections clearly showed support for sensible and popular policies. That augers well for 2012, better than the MSM would portray.
ChrisR266 : That personhood thing is as much an affront to reason and equality as Senate bill 5 was. It will bring every woman in the state to the polls. Women will not be amused, at all.
Emerald1943 : Murph, I would love to read it, but don’t hassle yourself. Maybe you can post it.
AdLib : Murph – 2012 is far different from 2010. People may not be any wiser but if they vote again with their emotions, their disdain is more aimed at the 9% approval rating Repubs in Congress than Obama this time around. Plus, Presidential elections are about a choice whereas midterms like 2010 are often just referendums in the incumbent party. This time, the numbers seem to be supporting Dems and Obama and opposing the GOP/Baggers and Romney & co.
Emerald1943 : Chris, from your keyboard to God’s ears!
MurphTheSurf3 : Em- interesting reading out there re. Ike’s distrust of manufacturing based on Pentagon contracts….exp erience of WWII. I can find it for you.
ChrisR266 : Em: If they get it on the ballot next year, Ohio will go democratic, I guarantee.
Emerald1943 : Patsy, I would love to help defeat Issa…I’m just a long ways away from you. I don’t know what I can do besides blog!
ChrisR266 : Murph: I don’t think the public will grip that. The GOP morphed in the early 90s and has quashed any remnant of that memory.
PatsyT : I guess my question is this – Would we, as a group and or a project, want to help an underdog going up against Issa?
Emerald1943 : Chris, I knew about that personhood thing and their attempts to do the same thing in Ohio. I think it will easily be defeated. There was enough about it in the MSM prior to this election that people know what the bill was about. They will never approve of such an extreme measure.
MurphTheSurf3 : Em…The California Republican reported assets worth between $240 million and $500 million, according to 2010 disclosure forms filed (CNN Money) «link»
ChrisR266 : AdLib and Em: I think what happened Tuesday in OH, ME and Mississippi should make people think hard about 2012. There was an article in the Dispatch today about how those wackos who put the Personhood legislation forward in Miss. are working to do it in Ohio now, gathering signatures for a statewide referendum. The more these wackos try to force crap down our throats, the more people are actually waking up and saying wait a minute. You can only push people so far until rationality starts to kick in.
Emerald1943 : Murph, I heard the tape of that speech that Ike gave warning about the military industrial complex. How prescient!
MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib…I love the idea of a GOTP is NOT the GOP as you frame it, but will the public have the concentration span and sense of history to grab on to it. For example, one of the strongest planks in both of the IKE platforms was the enthusiastic endorsement of unions! Warnings re. hyper-militarism and inappropriate U.S. involvement in other countries etc.
Emerald1943 : Patsy, isn’t Issa one of the wealthiest in Congress? I thought I read something about that a few weeks ago.
PatsyT : Ooooo I don’t know what worse Issa or Fox?
PatsyT : All he cares about is his ASS, AdLib
Emerald1943 : Patsy, OMG! I am so sorry to hear that! But I can definitely feel your pain! I’m stuck with Virginia Foxx!
Emerald1943 : Adlib, I’m a great believer in the KISS principle! What would appeal to the most voters…simple and clear. I think the obstruction to fix jobs is going to be the best campaign issue.
PatsyT : Folks, we are the media now, If we want to defeat him and his 1% agenda maybe we can as a group adopt a candidate and get behind his dem challenger the underdog. Oh by the way due to redistricting in California , Issa is MY new congressman! Uggghhh!
MurphTheSurf3 : ALL- What makes any of us think/believe/ho pe the wider electorate will be any wiser in 2012 than in 2010. Please note I worked with the Obama campaign from 2006-2008 in four states and, while I hate to say it, I was regularly struck by how little many of our supporters knew about Barack. They were mad at Bush (for reasons that were often hard to pin down) and impressed by Barack (for reasons that usually came down to the likeability factor and tapping into the American love of newness- young, black, not rich).
Emerald1943 : Adlib, good idea…if you are dealing with “thinking” people. Most of the American voters don’t think! That might be a little too esoteric for them!
AdLib : Issa = I ass
AdLib : Murph, how about a campaign by Dems of showing how today’s GOP opposes Eisenhower, Nixon, Reagan and both Bushes…in fact, is an extremist group that is an adversary of long established Republicanism. They aren’t a part of Republican legacy, they are an aberration and can’t be trusted?
Emerald1943 : Patsy, oh I am definitely a HUGE fan of that imbecile! NOT!!! What an asshat!
PatsyT : Hey who here is a fan of Darrell Issa?
Emerald1943 : Dammit! I’m all out of chocolate cake tonight!
ChrisR266 : Be back in a minute, gotta smoke and think.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, good point. I’ve been waiting for them to turn on Ronnie Ray-gun!
MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib….if Reagan would have flunked the current GOP acid tests, Nixon would have been tossed from the class and Ike booted out of school. BUT, the Iconic memory of Ike is real. He was a old-world GOP- the kind Mitt’s dad was and Mitt is not.
AdLib : Em – But the game is to get them attacking figures like Ike which would make Indies uncomfortable. Fine with me to lure them into spouting hatred at Republicans.
Emerald1943 : Chris,
Emerald1943 : Chris, good point. But I believe she’ll get stronger as time goes by. I’ve seen her a few times on TV lately and she did well.
ChrisR266 : What? He’s BLACK? Seriously? Oh man…
Emerald1943 : Adlib, they would attack their own mothers if they thought they could beat Obama! Remember, he’s black!!!
ChrisR266 : I don’t dislike Debbie W-S, she just doesn’t have the killer in her that Howard Dean has. We need killer now.
AdLib : Murph – Good point. It would seem beneficial to recall what has worked in the past and pretty cool to be able to herald back to a Republican in Eisenhower. If Obama turned the phrase a bit to say, “I’m Like Ike” on tax and infrastructure policy…are Repubs going to attack Ike?
Emerald1943 : Chris, I think Debbie Wasserman-Schult z is an rising star! I like her a lot. She has a good populist message.
ChrisR266 : Aw, Em: can’t everybody afford to cough up the equivalent of two happy meals to balance the budget again? Michele Bachmann seems to think so. This woman is a twit.
Emerald1943 : Chris, there IS a little recovery though. The unemployment numbers continue to go down. It ain’t much, but we’ll take it right now. I don’t know what kind of huge influx of money it will take to fix things…nor do I know where it will come from. The Bush tax cuts expiring will hurt the middle and lower classes.
PatsyT : Hi AdLib … just trying to catch up
AdLib : I’m trying to catch up and missed Patsy’s joining us. Hi Patsy!!!
ChrisR266 : AdLib: my thinking exactly. They need him back in the fray in 2012. I like Debbie Wasserman-Schult z, but she is not the face and voice we need at the DNC now.
Emerald1943 : Chris, there was an article yesterday about the very poor in this country. It is astounding! People living on less that $5,000 per year. I don’t know how they do it.
AdLib : Chris – Howard Dean made Obama’s election possible through his 50 state strategy. In return, Rahm and others in Obama’s admin wanted full credit and tossed Dean out. I do agree, would be great for him to become prominent again…maybe even a candidate in 2016?
ChrisR266 : Em: Yep. That’s exactly the thing. How we talk about “economic recovery” obscures where the real problems are and how severely they weigh on the national economy as a whole.
AdLib : Funk – Right with you, OWS could indeed be a training ground for future, populist and creative politicians.
Emerald1943 : Chris, I try to be a “nice girl”!
Emerald1943 : Chris, I saw where Wal-Mart actually showed a loss of 1% in sales for September! That was amazing and just shows how bad things are for the middle and lower classes.
PatsyT : Em not to mention that so many did not know what deep sh*t we were in
ChrisR266 : Em: tasteful use of the asterisk, ha.
AdLib : Chris – It is a slippery slope and I think that giveaway mentality that states use to keep and attract corporations turns out to harm the state in the long term. There would need to be some state and local laws passed to prevent giveaways.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, I’ve been saying the same thing. The American people have no patience! They expected him to come in and wave some kind of magic wand to fix Bush’s f*ck-ups!
ChrisR266 : AdLib: I agree. We have to start voting with our heads instead of our paychecks.
ChrisR266 : Em: exactly. The high end malls and lifestyle centers like Easton are doing boffo business. Walmart and Target? not so much.
AdLib : Funk – That is so much at the heart of why our government fails us…we fail us. We gave Obama only 2 years to accomplish anything then elected a Repub House bent on destroying all he accomplished and blocking any further progress. Long term solutions are needed and that requires continuity. The American People need to qui being so fickle and allow someone who seems earnest, a chance to employ long term programs to address long term problems.
PatsyT : Hi Em!
Emerald1943 : HELLO, Patsy! I’m glad you are here!
PatsyT : Hey Chris!
Emerald1943 : Chris, I have seen several articles about how the high-end goods are flying off the store shelves. Neiman Marcus and Sachs Fifth Avenue are doing just fine. The rest of us…not so much!
MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib…The Ike Message was that we HAD to pay down the debt and Americans bought it….that was what everyone did. No one carried much personal debt. Credit Cards? What are they? AND THRN Ike (et.al.) doubled down with the “American Century” Part II message re. the need to remake the infrastructure AND since we were the only major economy left standing after WWII the money poured in….now?
ChrisR266 : Hi Patsy!
PatsyT : HA HA funksands you are way too funny!
ChrisR266 : Em: The lack of demand is a sticky wicket. People are spending money in the Columbus metro area. They’re spending lots of it. It’s just that a fewer % of people in the area are doing all the spending. The same store numbers are going back up slowly, but it isn’t because spending is spread throughout the socio-economic strata.
Emerald1943 : Funk, right. I made the prediction a couple of years ago that if things didn’t change, the people would not have enough money to buy the cheap Chinese junk at Wally-World. Unfortunately, that’s what’s happened.
funksands : Oh, Patsy’s here. Gotta go! Have a great weekend everyone!!!
PatsyT : Hey guys, sorry I am joining late.
funksands : Ad….mmmmm I think I’ll have another one.
funksands : Em, spot on. The American consumer is still de-leveraging. As fashionale as it is to beat up on Corp. America, why do we expect them to hire just because we want them to?
AdLib : Funk _ I have had the candy cane Jo-Jos at Trader Joes and they are great!
Emerald1943 : Chris, I like Howard Dean too. He’s a smart dude!
Emerald1943 : Chris, we haven’t touched on the lack of demand for products. No one has money to spend on anything…we’r e running in circles.
AdLib : Murph – I think it can happen. We would need to be electing more people who truly want to see America return to a position of innovation, justice and strength. It may not be likely this time around but even in 2012, it could be possible to elect a Dem Congress and re-elect Obama with a mandate to tax the wealthy for the benefit of the 99% and the nation’s future.
ChrisR266 : AdLib: I would have been so happy if Howard Dean would get really active again…
funksands : Ad, I think that OWS is the seed bed for growing some of these new populists
Emerald1943 : Chris, yes that’s probably true. But what is that factory going to produce? With businesses sitting on $2 trillion, waiting out the storm, who is going to build them?
ChrisR266 : Em: you can put a factory up on 90 days if you really want to…
AdLib : Funk – At the very least, getting someone who isn’t married to convention into the WH could make a huge difference. I am happy with re-electing Obama and keeping things moving in the right direction but you’re right, we need kind of a legit populist representation in DC of real people to make the kinds of clever and outside of the box policies that could make us #1 again in all of the good categories.
ChrisR266 : AdLib: Thanks, I will read it. I am aware of what you’re pointing out. That’s partly why I said “new normal.” At the same time, municipalities and states are handing out huge tax abatements to keep corporations in their cities or states, literally handing these companies free rides. I am not seeing that ending anytime soon, so we have to wonder what we’re going to look like at this “new normal,” eh?
funksands : Robert Gates said something the other day that really struck me. He said the the issues facing us domestically call for a plan with the strategic urgency and long-range continuity that the Cold War had. No matter who the President was, the strategy against the Soviets stayed pretty much the same. He feels that is the scale of the problem facing us and why he is so pessimistic that we’ll ever build something like that.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, one of the problems is that we have lost over 58,000 manufacturing plants in this country since NAFTA. I don’t know what the average plant number of employees would be, but that’s got to be a bunch! How can we rebuild the mfg. base? That would go a long ways to helping, but it’s such a long-term solution.
funksands : Em, X2!!
AdLib : Chris – I don’t know if you got a chance to read it but here is a link to an article I wrote, “The End of Jobs in America” «link» which includes graphs that illustrate how corporations have been slashing jobs here in the US for the last decade and replacing them with hires overseas. The recession only accelerated this but there is no end of the rainbow in the foreseeable future for a corporate “normal” which seeks to keep unemployment close to where it is today.
Emerald1943 : Funk, this next election can’t come soon enough for me! We have to take back the House! We simply cannot afford another two years of their obstruction of everything. I do think the repub voters have some buyers’ remorse.
MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib….kudos in advance for the article effort….I will look forward to it…Reminder… how can we “chat” re. OWS most effectively?
funksands : Murph. Yes. With this Congress or one resembling it? No.
ChrisR266 : Em: no shit! It’s funny how people all across the internet yack at us because we haven’t recalled him. It’s like none of them ever read the replies we all type: No recalls in OHIO.
Emerald1943 : Funk, nope…can’t say that I have.
Emerald1943 : Chris, too bad you can’t recall Kasich!
funksands : OT: Anyone here ever had Jo-Joes from T.Joes? Oreo’s with candy cane pieces in the middle. Oh my.
ChrisR266 : Em: Yeah, it’s going to be absolutely devastating here in Ohio by the fall. It has nothing to do with “unions,” and everything to do with tax revenues falling off the cliff.
MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…the Ike era taxes were Ike’s response to a huge national debt. The remnants of the New Deal, WWII, the Cold War StartUp and the Marshall Plan were the source of THAT debt and IKE’s vision of what the country needed- a huge infrastructure program (highways, intercoastal waterway, new harbour and river system networks, and rail that was all about manufacturing.) That is how he sold the tax rate, even to the wealthy who were still basking in FDR’s imposed corporate patriotism. Can that happen again?
Emerald1943 : Funk, I think Joe (the non-plumber) is running!
Emerald1943 : Chris, I believe that most education funds are from property taxes here in NC also. My taxes are not too bad as I live out in the county, not in town where the tax bills are higher. We’ve been hurt too. Our little county has just laid off 42 teachers. That’s a lot for our school system.
funksands : Ad, Getting someone other than the aristocracy to run the levers of govt. might be a good start. I think that the root of all that ails us is the money in the political arena. Get some plumbers or teachers elected to Congress and I think the legislation passed might look a bit different
AdLib : Chris – Actually, we do kind of know what the new normal is. It’s just a little bit better on unemployment from where we are today.
ChrisR266 : Hey sabreen, good to see you for a moment…
ChrisR266 : Sorry, Em, but I didn’t know how the hell else to say it. I wish the 90s were normal, but I don’t know we’ll ever get back there.
AdLib : Night Sabreen!
Sabreen60 : I was unexpected pulled away. So since I have missed so much I think I’ll read the comments and just say good night. Take care of yourselves.
ChrisR266 : Em: Although the OHIO supreme court ruled our state public education funding unconstitutional , they have been unwilling to enforce that ruling on the legislature, so our primary funding mechanism is property taxes. The recession and housing hell have literally brought school districts to their knees. Top that off with 50% slashing of funds from the state, and they’re decimated.
Emerald1943 : `Chris, that phrase “the new normal” scares the hell out of me!
AdLib : Murph and Em, your kind words are all the encouragement one would need. I will take a swing at an article on some of these ideas.
Emerald1943 : Hey everybody…let ‘s talk about sex or something exciting! My head hurts too bad to solve all the economic problems tonight!
ChrisR266 : Em: I don’t think so either, but things are so out of proportion because of unemployment (and the housing abyss); We don’t know what “normal” (or the new normal) is now.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, got it. Sounds good to me, but I’m a democrat!
Emerald1943 : Chris, but is that all it will take to put things right? I’m not so sure. I know that full employment will result in more revenue which will filter down to the states. But will it solve everything that ails us?
AdLib : Em – I think the main path to solving income inequality is the tax code. Government can’t control how little private companies pay workers and how much they pay and bonus execs…but we can redistribute that inequity through taxes. Why not bring back the Eisenhower era tax of 90% on incomes above $10 million? It would affect such a miniscule amount of people and that huge influx could pay for infrastructure, green and energy technology, stabilizing Medicare, etc. Also, what would be cool is if the Federal and state governments had pay ratio requirements for any company they gave work to. That is, requiring that ratio of pay between the average worker and top executive is no greater than 100%. If that’s too “socialist” for them, they can do business in the private sector and not get government contracts. Just a few ideas.
ChrisR266 : Funk: You are correct, the evidence on that is pretty solid.
Emerald1943 : Funk, I’ve heard that for every dollar of food stamps, we get $1.62 in benefit. Am I correct on that?
ChrisR266 : Em: I do think that we can’t begin any large scale re-adjustment until the effects of large scale unemployment on the economy is nullified by an up tick in employment. At least here, the unemployment problem has just strapped everything. Municipalities, schools, the state, everything.
funksands : You know what really started flattening the income disparity? The Great Society reforms. Welfare. Thats why unemployment benefits and food stamps generate so much economic activity per dollar allocated
Emerald1943 : Murph, I would love to hear Adlib’s thoughts on this too! Can we convince him to write it?
Emerald1943 : Funk, oh yeah! I can just see the repubs going for that!
funksands : That’s the story Chris, I’m not convinced.
Emerald1943 : Chris, tweaks to the tax code usually don’t end up putting much in OUR pockets. It’s going to take something else.
funksands : Em, we’d get better results (and cheaper) just GIVING money to people to spend in their local economies. The tax code is a very inefficient way to stimulate economic activity.
MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib- still I think a thinkpiece on this would be very helpful in informing conversation about next steps. Today they are flush, tomorrow they are flushed. And I would hope you would speak to the question you raise…now that THE MOMENT has passed what’s to be done now? How do we proceed now. Getting the home mortgage, and student loan issue in our sights is essential. I know your thinking would be unique.
ChrisR266 : Funk: Won’t the tax revenue from all that liquor and such fatten the government coffers to offset the cost?
ChrisR266 : Em: I agree with Funk.
funksands : Yeah, don’t get me wrong, I’ll enjoy the convenience, but the State already is short on dough.
Emerald1943 : Funk, does anyone think that full employment will solve all the problems?
funksands : Em, nothing is going to change substantively until our lawmakers get more creative than encouraging behavior through tax code tweaks.
ChrisR266 : Funk: you did? I would not have guessed that.
funksands : I actually voted against it. I’m a prude.
ChrisR266 : Tsk-tsk, no coupons on the liquor, you know?
Emerald1943 : Adlib, we hear about inequality in income distribution all the time. I am not able to come up with any kind of solution to the problem that will not take years and years to do. What do you think?
AdLib : Funk! Woo hoo! I’ll toast to liquor in grocery stores…and use my double coupons!
AdLib : Murph – Kind of you to say. It’s all would’ve and could’ve now though, with the banks flush again (thanks to our tax dollars being given away to them!), they’d never agree to such terms now. The time to have gotten something bold like this through was when they had no choice between such a deal and going under. Now, US corps sit on $2 trillion in cash and happily fire more US workers to increase revenues.
ChrisR266 : Funk: I saw that! ‘Bout time. Join the 20th century, yuk-yuk.
Emerald1943 : Funk, great news! Have one for me!
MurphTheSurf3 : Hey Em…OWS is keeping me busy…movement is spinning wildly right now…
funksands : Not to toot our own horn, but we got liquor in grocery stores!!! Yeah!!
ChrisR266 : Hi Ya, Funk my friend. Thanks. It was great.
Emerald1943 : Chris, I am so proud of you all up there! Now that’s what real democracy looks like! WTG!!
funksands : Hey Chris! Congrats!
funksands : Ad, that WOULD have been the right call in 2009, before the housing market was cratered. It still might work though
ChrisR266 : Thanks, Em. It was sure fun to be here and see it happen. The issue was carried in only 5 of 88 counties. That is unheard of here in Ohio. Orgasmic night!
Emerald1943 : Murph!! HELLO!! How are you, good friend? This is a great suggestion for a piece by Adlib. We’re going to keep him busy!
MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib I have been watching the debate here about issues economic. Your thinking is way ahead of mine. Any chance you can put your thinking together in a post for us to digest in the slower pace of a front page article? Ad Lib’s recipe for an economic fix.
AdLib : Chris – Thanks, am doing fine.
ChrisR266 : Damn straight, Ad! It sure was rocking here all week.
Emerald1943 : Chris, the Ohio victory was fantastic! Congrats!!!
AdLib : COngrats Chris! OH folks are our heroes after this Tuesday!
Emerald1943 : Chris, yes, I’m fine…thanks! I trust you are too!
ChrisR266 : Good to see you, AdLib. You’re well, I take it.
AdLib : Hey Chris!
ChrisR266 : Hi Em, hope you are well.
AdLib : Funk – It’s all just for speculation since the window for doing something so bold has closed but I would think that with commercial and $1 million and over home mortgages deducted, it could have made for a doable amount for the government to have given money to the banks that was at the same time reducing most mortgages by 50% and 3% renegotiated rates on the balance could have been negotiated in as well. Just a dream of what could have been done to make a huge difference in the recovery and assets of Americans.
Emerald1943 : Hello CHRIS!! Glad to see you again!
ChrisR266 : Good evening, folks.
Emerald1943 : where did everybody go? Is this thing still working?
Emerald1943 : I vote for funk and Adlib to go on the Supercommittee immediately!!
funksands : Ad, not sure. I know the commercial pool is about 3T, it may very well be part of that 13T number
AlphaBitch : Of course I will, AdLib, but Patsy will have to be Press Secretary. Night.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, I am surely no brain when it comes to stuff like this. I think very simplistically, I know. But sometimes, it seems like Washington just tried to complicate things. This should have been a no brainer!
AlphaBitch : Funk, my pleasure. Em – don’t be sore! I’ll see you guys later. I can never do VP – too late for this one.
AdLib : Thanks AB, you’ll run my campaign? Sleep well and have a great weekend!
Emerald1943 : AB, Czarina bitch, we will miss you sorely!
funksands : Night AB! Thanks for slumming with us!
AdLib : Em – That goes to a big mistake Obama made, which he’s now corrected. After the 2010 election, he conceded to the “We need to cut the deficit now!” Repub mentality. Instead, as you describe, now is the time to borrow cheaply and turn the borrowed money directly into jobs.
AlphaBitch : AdLib for Pres. And AB off to bed. Night all – this was fun!
Emerald1943 : Funk, what do they want us to do…wait until the interest rates go back up and borrow it at 5%???
Emerald1943 : Adlib, but that makes too much sense!
funksands : Right now the US could borrow any amount it wanted to to rebuild our entire nation at 1%, which is of course why the GOP fights us tooth and nail to do so.
AdLib : Funk – Thanks! But does that $13 trillion in US mortgages include commercial mortgages? In my Fantasy Baseball version of the Presidency, I would stick with the $3 trillion figure and apply it to pay down half of the mortgages of homes that were up to 25% above the median price for an area, barring properties valued above $1 million. That should carve out a good chunk of wealthy people’s homes and that $13 trillion and would have made a much more profound impact on jobs and the economy then handing $20 trillion to the wealthy and banks.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, Robert Reich made the point that we can borrow money so cheaply right now that we can afford to spend what we need to fix things. He was talking more about infrastructure repair, but I could see that working in the housing market too.
Emerald1943 : Funk, thank you.
funksands : The total size of the US mortgage market is about $13 Trillion
Emerald1943 : Adlib, but…but…but that SOCIALISM!! We can’t be havin’ any of that! :-0
AdLib : Em – Funk mentioned that $2 trillion would pay off all subprime loans. I would think that $3 trillion would be enough to instead pay down ALL Americans home loans by 50%. And, renegotiating the loan balances to 3% fixed allows banks to profit and homeowners to stay in their homes and solidify the equity level in neighborhoods.
Emerald1943 : Thanks funk! You’re right…they waited until things got so screwed up that there is no was to fix it now.
funksands : Em, 2 trillion is the size of the entire subprime mortgage market. That doesn’t necessarily solve the underwater mortgage problem.
funksands : Yup, the gift that keeps on giving………u s syphilis
Emerald1943 : Adlib, surely they are going to be able to get Goldman Sachs for something illegal!!!
AdLib : Funk – And as I mentioned below, who was at the root of this Greece crisis? Who helped them hide their debt and allow them to greatly increase it while joining the EU and endangering all the countries in it? Goldman Sachs again!
Emerald1943 : Adlib, $3 trillion? Is that what it would take?
AlphaBitch : Em – jinx!
Emerald1943 : Funk, I agree with you. It seemed that he got some lousy advice, probably from Summers and Geitner.
AdLib : Em – Exactly. It was the simplest plan, just give the banks $3 trillion, tell them that it is paying off 50% of all American’s mortgages which must be renegotiated to 3% interest and if they don’t like it, they can go bankrupt.
AlphaBitch : Funk – and dont’ forget Summers was chosen to be part of the team.
funksands : Em, see my post below
funksands : Ad, this was the challenge that the Obama administration wasn’t up to. The conventional wisdom of the day ruled his administration in the first critical year of this crisis.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, does anyone know just how much it would take to bail out the homeowners?
funksands : Ad, exactly. And now we see this again in Greece. They have an economy the size of Washington State, but because of the leverage the banks helped them create, the entire Euro zone is wobbling
AdLib : AB – Yes, it’s so simple that spending a fraction of the money needed to bail out banks, if instead going to bail out Americans, would in the end bail out banks.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, if they had saved the homeowners instead of the banks, it would have rebounded the economy, the people would have kept their homes, and the banks would have gotten their money. How could that be bad?
funksands : This is a really useful link. It compares the size of European economies with their closest US State. For example, Greece has an economy the same size as Washington State. «link»
AdLib : Funk – That’s what kills me about this. If 2 or 3 trillion could have completely solved the housing crisis, the ripple effect on jobs and the economy would have been incredible. The price of homes and equity would have stabilized years ago. This is what happens when bankers make the decisions, it was all about giving the banks what they insisted they needed to survive instead of considering bold action to rescue 99% of Americans…and the result of that has now come home to roost in the form of OWS and the anti-banks sentiment growing nationwide.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, I saw a really interesting program on the History Channel the other night about the gold that is supposed to be in Ft. Knox. Nobody really knows if it’s there or not.
funksands : The Fed got almost all of the money back, but that wasn’t the point.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, how do I get a deal like that? I want them to just credit my account for..say..how about $100 million?? That shouldn’t be too hard to do.
AlphaBitch : Em – agreed. And what a way to GOTV
Emerald1943 : AB, I think the government should forgive student debt right now. That would sure be a huge boost to the economy.
funksands : “Full faith and credit” stop
AdLib : Em – In essence the money the Fed creates out of thin air is backed by the US…as all of our money is. There is no collateral against $16 trillion that’s just electronically added to the books.
funksands : Ad, we could have paid off EVERY SINGLE SUBPRIME mortgage in America for 2 Trillion
AlphaBitch : AdLib – always thought the Fed should forgive just the INTEREST on the loans they made to farmers in the 80s. Made me so sad/mad to see family farms lured into taking loans, then losing the land when they couldn’t make the payments due to weather.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, that would be worth borrowing for. If we can borrow money at near zero interest, what better way to stimulate the economy and save all those homes?
Emerald1943 : Adlib, I don’t know why they didn’t do that to begin with.
funksands : Ad, the the fed can do it is that the Regional Fed Board members are often the heads of the big banks themselves
AdLib : Funk…it’s just unbelievable, that amount of money given to foreign countries and individuals…co uld you imagine how great we’d be doing if just $1 trillion was given to homeowners to pay down home loans nationwide?
Emerald1943 : Funk, I gave it up for Lent…about 20 years ago! Heh heh!
funksands : Em, its a special stage that lasts for about 50 years, but we eventually get tire….I mean outgrow it.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, but they must have to have something to back it up…don’t they??
AlphaBitch : There’s always Cialis. and outdoor bathtubs, evidently.
Emerald1943 : Funk, let’s hope so! I resemble that remark!
AdLib : EM – They “print it up themselves, they just decide that they have $16 trillion and they have it.
funksands : Thankfully Bernie is over 70. He may be past that stage in his life.
AlphaBitch : Funk: you mean to Bandar Bush et al?
funksands : Ad, they lent it to Arab countries, individuals, corporations foreign and domestic. No strings and most of it at 0%
Emerald1943 : Adlib, I don’t understand. Where in hell do they get $16 trillion??
AlphaBitch : Funk – PLEASE have Bernie keep his pants on! We need him!
AlphaBitch : AdLib: agree 100%.
AdLib : Funk – I do want to know a huge amount more about that secret $16 trillion, it is outrageous!
Emerald1943 : Adlib, great news! I hope they nail those smarmy bastids!
AdLib : AB – I wish Spitzer and Weiner kept their pants on.
AlphaBitch : AdLib – will send it.
AdLib : Em – The AGs in NY, CT, CA and other states are indeed pursuing the banks for robosigning and fraud. It’s slow and complicated but it is happening.
Emerald1943 : AB, have you ever met a man who would do that???
AlphaBitch : Em – but still. He could have said no. Or, as Princess Bitch would have it – “No, thank you.”
funksands : Ad, but of course it was poor borrowers and Barney Frank that took down the world. My bad.
AdLib : AB – Sure, would like to read the article on Greece. I know that they essentially created phony books to cover their overly generous social spending…and Goldman Sachs helped them hide their debt so they could join the EU.
AlphaBitch : For now, AdLib. That’s the part that worries me – if it catches up to us, will they feel the same?
funksands : Ad, exactly. It also gives credence to the REALITY that the world really DID experience a 100 year economic calamity.
Emerald1943 : AB, I have always thought that Spitzer was set up big time. He was getting too close to the banksters and they knew he was going to get them…so, enter one “lady of the evening”!
AlphaBitch : He was my best hope against WS.
AdLib : Funk – Indeed, it may seem odd but in comparison to Europe, people here might be thinking more and more, “Well, at least Obama kept us from getting that bad.”
funksands : AB – for sure. Dumbass
funksands : What I’d like to know A LOT more about is the 16 TRILLION the Fed loaned all over the world during and shortly after the crisis without telling anyone. Bernie Sanders is bird-dogging an investigation into this.
AlphaBitch : Does anyone else wish Elliott Spitzer had kept his pants on??
Emerald1943 : Funk, I cannot believe the robo-signing is legal! Grrrrr!!
funksands : Em, very few of them did anything illegal. That’s one reason.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, I don’t understand why we aren’t seeing perp walks for these bankers that did that.
AlphaBitch : Yep, AdLib, but the thing on Greece was really good. Can send it to you, if’n you want. I keep all articles of import in 3 ring binders. I’m “quarr” that way.
funksands : Ad, I think Europe actually gives Obama a lot of cover. Things look positively marvelous here compared to there.
Emerald1943 : Funk, right again! Sell it off to the highest bidder!
AdLib : EM – And consider that most of these foreclosures are illegal, the result of robosigning and not having the actual loan papers in hand.
Sabreen60 : Here you go Em, I didn’t mean to disrupt the conversation: Nearly every flexible or movable level of the spine (with the exception of the very top vertebra) is comprised of the same elements, including: Vertebral body, the bony building blocks of the spine Facet joint, small stabilizing joints located between and behind adjacent vertebrae Intervertebral disc, which provides a cushion between each of the vertebral bodies and binds them together
Emerald1943 : Funk, I think you’re right about the VA. They’ve had their issues in the past but have improved greatly.
funksands : Which is of course why it must be destroyed.
funksands : Em, the WHO ranks the VA system as the BEST medical delivery system in the world, if I am not mistaken
AdLib : It’s actually called PIIGGS: Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain (PIIGS) are all in precarious economic situations. It will hurt the world and I don’t think Obama takes the hit for the repercussions here.
Emerald1943 : Sabreen, that man is completely nuts. I think Bito posted that earlier today. Vouchers…reall y??? The VA is one of our better government-run institutions.
funksands : Oh Mitt, you so crazy….
AlphaBitch : Wow. And we thought Perry was the dumb one.
Sabreen60 : Em, Mitt said today – Veterans Day that they should receive vouchers for health care and we need to war with Iran.
Emerald1943 : Sabreen, what is the “facet joint”? I’m not familiar with it. My anatomy course was a long time ago…maybe I missed something.
AlphaBitch : Sabreen – is it working?
Sabreen60 : Thanks Adlib. Em, steroid is injected into the facet joint in order to block nerve pain.
AlphaBitch : Europe is troubling. I read a great article about a year ago on Greece in Vanity Fair. Some scary shit, with monks and everything.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, I cannot believe that Mittens had the gall to say the foreclosures should just go ahead and hit bottom! They are already way up from even last month.
AdLib : Sorry to hear that Sabreen, hope you feel better!
Emerald1943 : Sabreen, I meant to address you about the facet block, whatever that is.
AdLib : EM – Good point but I don’t think the EU crisis and its hurting the US economy makes Obama look worse. Romney has said some very damaging things about international issues and in the debate, aside from saying that foreclosures should be sped up, said that it doesn’t matter what happens in the EU.
Emerald1943 : AB, I’ve never heard of a “facet block” and I’m an RN.
AlphaBitch : Sabreen – don’t even know what it is, but hope it works.
AdLib : AB – Dance we shall!
Sabreen60 : Alpha, I got a Facet Block.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, I agree. the MSM has been saying that the black vote is leaving PBO, but there was another poll saying that he has 95%! That’s probably more truthful!
AdLib : Em – Yes, I notice the MSM is rather quiet when unemployment goes down. Not a mystery to me.
Emerald1943 : AB, I hope it doesn’t get to that. There is really nothing we can do but wait and hope they get their act together.
AdLib : Funk – My memory is that it was a combo of 3 things that gave Repubs the wins in 2010. Lower Dem turnout, higher GOP turnout and more Indie voters going for Repubs because they promised to fix the economy. The Repubs will still have enthusiasm to get the black man out of the WH but Dems need to turnout and indies need to be voting more for Dems.
Emerald1943 : Sabreen, so sorry to hear that! It must suck!
AlphaBitch : Yikes, Sabreen! Cortisone?
AlphaBitch : It’s that tit for tat thing; we blew up theirs, now they blow up ours. Eye for an eye and all that stuff.
Sabreen60 : I hanging in here. Good to see you here Alpha. BTW, y’all I had to shots in the old back this week. PT didn’t work. Cross your fingers for me.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, the only thing that I’m really worried about is the European debt crisis. If they blow up our economy again, it could be bad.
funksands : Hi Sabreen!
AdLib : Funk – I think the recall of Pearce was more about getting rid of him than embracing Lewis.
AlphaBitch : And then we dance, AdLib, though maybe not forro which seemed a tad racy for most. I still love it. I’m an accordion ‘ho.
funksands : AB, absolutely. I felt grim satisfaction. Everyone needs to do a reality check and realize that this fight never will end.
Emerald1943 : Sabreen! HELLO! How’s it going?
AdLib : Hey Sabreen!
AdLib : AB – Wise words, AB. We have to play tough like it’s a tie ballgame but in the end, I have a feeling that the Dems and Obama may win by far bigger margins than the MSM would want people to imagine.
AlphaBitch : Sabreen!!!
Sabreen60 : Hello Everyone !
AlphaBitch : It’s the 11 months left that make me nervous.
Emerald1943 : Did anybody notice that unemployment was down again in the numbers today?
funksands : Ad, did they? Do we have numbers to support that? My impression was always LACK of voters and voter enthusiasm on the left/center was the culprit
Emerald1943 : AB, you are wise! We should take nothing for granted. But I really think that it will go Dem big time. PBO is in lots better shape than even a month ago.
funksands : Ad, I think jerry lewis in AZ, is just as conservative as Pearce is, he’s just not an asshole.
AdLib : Funk – And keep in mind that many indies voted with their emotions instead of brains, voting for Repubs out of spite for Obama and Dems not turning Bush’s economic disaster into ice cream sundaes for all in a year and a half.
AlphaBitch : AdLib – I’m overjoyed at the results this week, but I take nothing for granted.
Emerald1943 : AB, yep…and they want to make sure you can read the bullshit!
AlphaBitch : OT, but has anyone who has ever glanced at FAUX News ever noticed how LARGE the crawl is? cuz they have old viewers, right?
funksands : The problem in VA is who chairs the committees? I smell lawsuits.
AdLib : The elections this week just trounced Kasich and the Kochs, the Religious Right and the racist Pearce in AZ. That was a powerful national statement that the MSM hasn’t been accurately representing. The MSM wants and prays for a close race because it will make them more money but I don’t think it will be so close.
AlphaBitch : So…I’m guessing how the votes will go.
funksands : Ad, same people as last time. Its our side that has to get people to show up to vote. 90% of voters under 30 in 2010 didn’t bother to show up.
Emerald1943 : Funk, that guy is a dick!
AlphaBitch : Shite.
funksands : AB: GOP Lt. Gov.
AlphaBitch : Funk – who casts tie breaker?
Emerald1943 : Funk, thanks. I was so excited about Ohio that I forgot to look.
AdLib : Funk – And who is going to vote for more of having Baggers in the House and more insanity?
funksands : Em, Dead even split in VA. They don’t know how business is going to get done.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, maybe as time grows nearer, the issues will be more defined by OWS. That can only make them lean Democratic.
AlphaBitch : Jeff Fortenberry from NE disavowed Norquist
AlphaBitch : AdLib – I have it; just wanted to be sure others do, too.
AdLib : Em – I can’t see OWS doing anything but swinging the election more and more to Obama…who is preaching and campaigning for everything they are based upon.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, do you know how the elections came out in VA?
funksands : The guy from Virginia. I saw it.
AdLib : AB – Try this list of Koch businesses and products to boycott: «link»
Emerald1943 : Adlib, maybe somebody in the repub party really can do the math!
AdLib : Funk – I’ll find the quote for you later by one Repub rep made a statement that he signed the pledge years ago and it doesn’t mean its a lifetime agreement.
Emerald1943 : Funk, I agree. They knew they were boxed into a corner on the veterans’ vote. How could they not support the troops???
funksands : AB, yep
funksands : Short of barricading the Capitol doors, the GOP can’t get any more obstructionist. They are starting to run out of wiggle room.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, I hope that OWS doesn’t waste its potential to swing this election back to the Dems. We really need to take back the House! That’s where most of our problems have been.
AlphaBitch : Does everyone have the Koch list of things to boycott??
AdLib : I am feeling stronger after the elections this week that the pundits will be all proven wrong next year, with a decisive Obama and Dem victory. The Repubs are playing to a small audience and when the elections are nationalized, they should be crushed for wanting to destroy SS and Medicare, student loans, the EPA, teachers/firemen /construction, etc. They have NOTHING positive to run on and lots of terrible behavior to run from. I say, the people continue rising up and slap down the Baggers and Koch-GOP.
Emerald1943 : Funk, yes but even that is a crack in their stone wall.
AlphaBitch : Funk – I had heard they are reconsidering the Norquist pledge
funksands : Ad, I think you give them too much credit. They are talking about eliminating small loopholes in the tax code, which has consistently been on the table. I haven’t heard ONE Repub ponder rates going up.
Emerald1943 : AB, I’m not sure either, but I expect Pelosi had a little bit to do with it. She’s so great!!
AlphaBitch : Em – if I had two, I’d send you one. I may send it to you anyways.
AlphaBitch : I think the Dems – and I’m not sure who in the org gets credit – have done a masterful job boxing them in.
Emerald1943 : AB, I’d love to have one just like it!
Emerald1943 : Adlib, I think their facade with Norquist is cracking! We can thanks OWS for a lot of it.
AlphaBitch : Em – I still have a button that reads: If you don’t vote, people like Bush and Cheney get elected.
AlphaBitch : Did they wake up or what?
Emerald1943 : Adlib, I hope the Dem Party will remind everybody what happens when they DON’T vote.
AdLib : Some Repubs have said publicly that they don’t need to follow their pledge to Norquist not to raise taxes, others are talking compromise. I think they’re afraid they’re well on the wrong side of things.
Emerald1943 : AB, \
funksands : A Congress with a 9% approval rating has nothing to fear from a 35% voter turnout
AlphaBitch : “Hand me my brown pants, Speaker Boehner”
Emerald1943 : Adlib, I think they all probably need to change their shorts right now. The repubs know they are on the wrong side of the people. The veterans’ vote showed that.
SallyT : I like anything you can dance to. Disco, country, classical…..wa it……oh, yes, the waltz!
funksands : Country-disco is a really underappreciated genre.
AlphaBitch : My only options at A&M (Remember – it’s where Perry was a cheerleader) were country/disco. OOPS – new topic.
funksands : C’mon, how can you not like “Words”? «link»
AdLib : NEW TOPIC: THERE HAVE BEEN RUMBLINGS FROM CONGRESSIONAL REPUBS ON RAISING REVENUES FOLLOWING THE OWS PROTESTS AND THEIR PLUNGING POLLS. IS IT TOO LITTLE TOO LATE? MIGHT THE PUBLIC BE MOVING TOWARDS A STRONG DEMOCRATIC VICTORY IN 2012 BECAUSE OF THEIR MORE POPULIST VIEWS AND REPUBS HAVE STARTED RUNNING SCARED? WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN IN 2012?
AlphaBitch : Em – you’ll do fine by me then. It’s ANYTHING but disco.
Emerald1943 : AB, I cannot stand country, but disco still sucks!
AlphaBitch : WHAT????
funksands : The Bee-Gees had some good stuff.
AlphaBitch : LOVE the Pee-Wee.
funksands : I like threads where the posts are only one line long
AlphaBitch : You guys DO know that songs like that made me a shitkicker at Texas A&M? I went country instead of disco. Would do it again. The BeeGeesus and Olivia Mutant John sent me over the edge.
funksands : Marcus Bachmann is Francis from “pee-wee’s big adventure”
Emerald1943 : Adlib, you can tell how interesting the repub race is by the way we are discussing it at so much depth here tonight!
AlphaBitch : AdLIb – too funny
funksands : Em!
funksands : “used to?” Now you looooooooove it.
AdLib : “Do you like riding a Bachmann? And pulling their reigns?”
Emerald1943 : AB, the funniest one about Marcus was that he wore every shade of butter mints at a wedding!
SallyT : Macus/Butt…..w on’t go there.
AlphaBitch : Funk, that song used to make me gag.
AdLib : The Lone Ranger’s sidekick.
AlphaBitch : Poor Marcus. The “butt” of so many jokes.
funksands : Long walks in the rain?
AdLib : AB – Yep, the one with the exploding gas tank.
AlphaBitch : Pina colada?
funksands : Nina? Santa Maria?
AlphaBitch : Ford?
Emerald1943 : Adlib, ewwwwww!
AlphaBitch : Bean?
AdLib : Actually, I envision Michele Bachmann riding Marcus like a pinto.
funksands : Okay that was over the line. Flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct.
AlphaBitch : Oh Funk!
funksands : It’s ball-gag / Taco Friday at the Bachmann household tonight.
Emerald1943 : AB, my brain needs a good scrubbing after that thought!
AlphaBitch : My eyes now need a good scrubbing.
AlphaBitch : NOOOOOOO
Emerald1943 : AB, he’s Michelle’s bitch! Can’t you just see her in black leather???
AlphaBitch : AdLib, it’s “Kneel to me, you worm! Thank you very much.”
funksands : AB, he sure should be.
funksands : Em, I’m good. Tired but good.
Emerald1943 : Hi Sally!
AlphaBitch : You know Marcus is SOMEBODY’S bitch.
AdLib : “Princess Bitch says, ‘Kneel to me you worm! Pretty please?”
Emerald1943 : Funk! Hello! How are you?
SallyT : Texans, they know they hate something but they just can’t remember what.
AlphaBitch : Oh Funk!
Emerald1943 : AB, I don’t do “pink”…I’m a winter! Had my colors done years ago!
funksands : That’s what Marcus Bachmann goes by down at the Lion’s Club. “Princess Bitch”
AlphaBitch : It looks nice on a pink sweatshirt, AdLib
javaz : Guess we didn’t listen – as we’re a trillion now, and that isn’t good.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, Princess Bitch works for me!
AdLib : AB – I do like the dichotomy of “Princess Bitch” though.
AlphaBitch : And isn’t Perry rather Alley OOPSish?
Emerald1943 : Javaz, hello! Glad to see you!
AdLib : Em – Great minds think alike!
AlphaBitch : Love IT – OOPS
AdLib : “Texans elected Rick Perry Governor. Oops!
AlphaBitch : AdLib – since Em drank my beer, it’s the least you could do.
javaz : Is there no hope? Remember back in the 60’s and early 70’s and when we were hippies? And how it was thing not to have children, because it meant bringing children into the world without a future,
Emerald1943 : OOPS!
Emerald1943 : AB, LMAO! As for the bumper sticker, just one word…
AlphaBitch : And Em, you may call me Czarina Bitch. Or, as the Blov occasionally does, “Shezilla”
AdLib : AB – That is a fun challenge, give me a moment…
Emerald1943 : Adlib, yes it is. It’s been over for a while. Cain is tanking and Perry is toast. Newt doesn’t have a ghost of a chance with his baggage and the rest….crickets !
AlphaBitch : C’mon guys. Come up with a really good bumper sticker to piss off Repubs in TX by showing them how silly they were to vote for this eejit.
Emerald1943 : AB, that’s Princess Emerald to you, thank you very much!
AdLib : Em – Right now we’re discussing, is the GOP primary essentially over on account of idiocy? Has Romney just won by default?
AlphaBitch : How, AdLib? Are we all dressing like Prarie Princesses (FLDS)? (Note clever usage of word Princess)
Emerald1943 : Adlib, I loved that part! He IS an idiot!
AdLib : AB – And wasn’t it funny that in the debate, Perry insisted we needed to eliminate the Dept. of Education just before making himself look like a total idiot.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, what are we talking about tonight? I missed the first part of this party.
AlphaBitch : It’s not funny when it’s true.
AdLib : AB – You ain’t seen nothin’ yet! When Romney is officially the candidate, we’re taking his campaign apart!
Emerald1943 : AB, you have me laughing out loud again!
AlphaBitch : Em, yes and I could NOT have been happier! what an inspiration for TX – where cretins teach creationism.
Emerald1943 : Adlib, that’s too bad about Perry! It would have been great to see PBO eat his lunch!
AlphaBitch : Now AdLib, you’re just being cruel.
Emerald1943 : AB, that was a despicable situation. The people really rose up against their takeover. That was great!
AdLib : I’m kind of disappointed that Perry has flamed out so quickly. If only he could have cruised to win the nom then had his “duh” moments in Presidential debates, that would have been so hilarious.
AlphaBitch : Drat you, Em!
AlphaBitch : Em, I so appreciate your telling us about the Wake County school board election. I heard it here first
Emerald1943 : AB, sorry…We drank it all before you got here!
Emerald1943 : Adlib, thanks! We’re ranked #1 in the country so far. I hope we can take another title!
AlphaBitch : I keep waiting for those drinks I read about on Sat. mornings to appear. no snacks, no booze. this party sucks.
AdLib : Congrats Em!
Emerald1943 : Hi AB! How are you? Good, I hope!
Emerald1943 : Hi Adlib! I’m Okay thanks! Just watched UNC beat Michigan!
AdLib : Hey Em!!! How are you doing this evening?
AlphaBitch : EM!
Emerald1943 : Hello everybody! What’s happening??
AdLib : AB – And keep in mind that it is the indie voters who decide elections, not the GOP base. Romney is unlikeable and doesn’t stack up strongly against Obama. Indies will be more turned off by a Bagger VP. So, damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t. The GOP…party of the damned.
AlphaBitch : He’s supposed to come here this winter and I get to meet him. SOOO excited.
AdLib : AB – So with you on that, Bill Moyers is the greatest!
AlphaBitch : Ah, but then they’ll just “pray him away” and keep their TRUE candidate.
AdLib : AB – Bringing in a popular VP with Baggers could help energize them but they will be campaigning for Romney to be at the reins of power…which is discouraging.
javaz : I’m very bad when it comes to Mormons – They offend me and everything that I believe in. I’m very nice to them, but I want nothing to do with them. Mitt Romney follows a pedophile.
AlphaBitch : Seriously – I get my “news” here and from TDS and SC. I’m pretty tired of cable by now. Bring back Moyers!
AdLib : I think that whole meme about the Unemployment percentage determining the election is mindless cable journalism and no more insightful than a parrot that repeats what someone else said.
SallyT : Bill Maheur just said. “Ladies, if Cain didn’t try to grab your ass, congrads, you are in the 99%
AlphaBitch : Not unless it’s a pairing that excites the base.
AdLib : Even if the economy doesn’t improve much, does anyone think that Romney is likely to beat Obama?
AdLib : AB – It must be pretty cool for The Pup to see and quite enlightening! When subservient roles aren’t enforced on people, it’s night and day.
javaz : Russell Pearce was driven out of office by the Mormons. The recall was in a small area of Maricopa County in East Mesa and Pearce was not held in good terms in his district. It was the Mormons who did it. The Democrats didn’t even bother to run candidate, instead they ran another Mormon.
SallyT : That’s right it was a cruise.
AdLib : Sally – Three cheers for the Repub and Dem women in MS who stepped up and said, “Hands off!”
AlphaBitch : Oh goody! It DID have something to do with a cruise..
AlphaBitch : AdLib – It’s been interesting having the Pup here to see what a true partnership is like. Sometimes I truly am the AB. I expect everyone to pull their load.
SallyT : The R ladies do wake up when they need to. Look how they voted in Ole Miss this week.
AdLib : Newt lost all his key staff after choosing to go on a luxury cruise with his wife instead of campaigning. They realized he wasn’t serious about campaigning for President.
AdLib : AB – Yep, that’s why I qualified my comment with “logical” and “voting in her own interests”. GOP women don’t come off as either when electing men who run on an agenda of dominating and abusing them and taking their rights away. Most women vote Dem so though we would like the GOP women to come to their senses, they only represent a minority of women.
SallyT : He got hit hard about that with some reporter on TV. Don’t remember either.
AlphaBitch : Sally – yeppers. Gots to pay down the Tiff bill. who was it?? I can’t remember names, but remember something like that while Newt was cruising somewhere.
AdLib : Sally – Yep, Frankenstein may come off as an ignorant, inarticulate monster (in the book he was able to speak normally) but it doesn’t like being given a wedgie.
SallyT : Yes. Didn’t all of Newt’s staff walk out on him because he only wanted to sell his books?
javaz : When the pope and other religious leaders come out against the GOP – or the LDS leaders, it’s over.
AdLib : Newt is like Cain, neither jumped in the race to win, neither had money behind them, neither have organizations in states to promote their election in the primaries, it’s transparent that this was all about getting publicity that they could cash in on. Sure, they’d love to be handed the nom without having to earn it but that won’t happen I don’t think. Romney will win but it will be as an end result of getting rid of the totally incompetent, not due to him being worthy of the nom. And that does help Obama and the Dems.
AlphaBitch : See the joke about Perrymenopausal symptoms???
SallyT : created I am suffering from Perry Freeze tonight. Bare with me.
AlphaBitch : Ah, AdLib – but R women are often the model for Stepford Wives. Or FOX broads.
SallyT : Even the Frankenstein Monster finally realized that the Doctor crated him for his own fame.
AdLib : AB – Exactly, the GOP has candidates that no woman in her right mind, voting in her own interests could logically support.
AdLib : Murph – No question that the 1% has been collaborating and strategizing and using their think tanks to corrupt America into their plutocracy. However, when they mess up, they mess up. The GOP field is not a multi-level strategy, it is the result of having exploited the bagger mentality as the only thing passing for substance in a party owned and operated by the few. They built this Frankenstein to serve them and now, it has taken them over politically.
AlphaBitch : You think Cain has problems with women; most of the women I know foam at the mouth when you bring up Gingrich divorcing cancer wife while she was in the hospital.
javaz : What a joke – the GOP is disrupted – it’s over for them and they know it.
AdLib : Americans don’t really vote for people they don’t like, Nixon aside. Newt is so disliked and dislikeable, even putting all his baggage aside, he could never attract indies.
MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib….Bush was a front (as gov of Tx and as prez). Look to the folks who run Halliburton, or Blackwater, or Shell, to see who makes the real decisions. There is a cadre of decision makers (the Kochs among them) who have been outed by good journalism. I have read enough about the long term plan (beginning in the days of Ronnie) to work the country into Red Heaven. Think it is for real.
AlphaBitch : AdLib – I agree. it’s why I thought the effort to suppress the vote was the single most important issue to consider.
AlphaBitch : Newt always looks like the kid in your third grade class who cut the SBD fart. You know who it was……
javaz : Give me break – you actually think Newt?
AdLib : AB – I too expected an October surprise via Bush in 2004 but it never happened. Now, there is far less that a Romney campaign could deliver. I do think that the GOP will do all they can to suppress votes and rig whatever vote counts they can so we will still need to work hard and GOTV.
SallyT : Dah, that s/b do you remember
AlphaBitch : Sally – Brilliant!
MurphTheSurf3 : Palin is Gingrich…in the politics to sell themselves…her personal appearances and PAC, his Books and fake consulting firm.
SallyT : If Perry: If you voted for Perry, to you remember the office he was running for?
AdLib : Murph – I’ve learned never to attribute brilliant strategy to the ignorant actions of others. Was Bush really a brilliant strategic genius in all he did or an incompetent? There is no conspiracy here, those in the GOP are truly intellectually bankrupt, believe it.
AlphaBitch : AdLib – you are a wise guy, and I respect you greatly. Still, I can’t shake the bad feeling about some October “surprise”
javaz : All I can do in my world, is ask the people I know if they vote. and it shocks how very many say NO.
AdLib : AB – In the end, though Palin gave a shor term boost of life to McCain’s campaign, she ended up losing him more voters than gaining. And in this case, Romney will need to pick a bagger for VP to mollify them and that can only further alienate indie voters from his ticket.
AlphaBitch : I’m just hoping Perry is – as Jon Stewart so aptly put it – “toast”. Thinking of a sticker: If you’re a Republican, and you voted for Perry, I’m pretty sure you can’t read this.
AlphaBitch : Murph – I;ve thought of that, too.
AlphaBitch : Hey Sally – Only if you live in TX
MurphTheSurf3 : Could it be that that the GOP kingmakers do not really want the Presidency. Another 4 years of Obama to demonize as the animator of the Senate Takeover and the House Hold? Add in a few more governors, a state assembly or two….and the Red Menace continues to spread.
AlphaBitch : Truly? I don’t know. That Palin episode left a bad taste in my mouth.
SallyT : Gee, Alpha, you must live in my neighborhood.
AdLib : AB – Historically, including in 2004, the VP makes little difference in Presidential elections. Rubio is fatally damaged after being exposed as a liar and fraud, Christie won’t go for a VP slot, Thune is an unknown to most Americans and McDonnell has little appeal to indies.
AlphaBitch : My neighborhood was pretty well registered – all as R’s. The Blov was the precinct chair some years ago.
javaz : The thing we all have to do is think LOCAL. We must go out and register people to vote and then offer to drive them to the polls. You’d be surprised how many people in your neighborhood are not registered to vote.
AlphaBitch : It’s nothing to be ashamed about, really.
AlphaBitch : My second brief appearance. Thanks for the premature voxing.
AdLib : Alpha! How wonderful to see you at Vox!
AdLib : The meme is that Baggers and Repubs have an enthusiasm advantage because no matter who they nominate, they want Obama out. But if you have to say “Vote for Mitt” with real commitment to make that happen, I don’t think it’s so likely.
AlphaBitch : Hi ya, boys. What worries me is not who will run for Pres, but who they will pick for VP. A Rubio or Christie or Thune or McDonnell could spell T-R-O-U-B-L-E.
SallyT : On Countdown with KO tonight they were discussing that KRove was putting their money behind other races than the President one. They want the Sen and House
AdLib : Funk – So true, I think ROmney’s nomination will be far worse from the GOP than it looks on paper. The base will be discouraged and as much as they hate Obama, they won’t necessarily give their all for Obama to be replaced with the originator of Obamacare.
funksands : cont…GOP for the Presidential run. It will really suppress the turnout of the conservatives.
funksands : A Romney nomination will suck all of the energy out of the
AdLib : Jinx!
AdLib : Jonx!
AdLib : See ya 2CCP, don’t be a stranger!
funksands : See you 2C3PO: Don’t be a stranger
AdLib : I think it is a clear path for Romney but I think that will engender a lot of anger and resentment from Baggers who I doubt will rally behind him but might…if we’re lucky…run a third party Bagger candidate!
2ndClassCitizenPun : Later all.
funksands : Romney is all that is left. The rest is just the last sad drunken dance before the bar closes.
MurphTheSurf3 : ALL…I just spoke to Michelle and told her to tell the Big Man that most of us have agreed he gets our vote…moving on. God, I love it when my meds kick in.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Hate to duck and run, but time for me to get back to work. My brainstorming committee just logged on.
AdLib : I would LOVE to see Newt nominated, it would be such a blow out for Obama!
SallyT : Newt has to much baggage. It will come out, AGAIN, if he gets to far ahead.
javaz : Why do we waste time with this bullshit – we all know it’s going to be Romney – and we all know he doesn’t stand a chance.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Palin can’t quit quitting.
AdLib : 2CCP – Newt is hated by actual newts.
SallyT : Palin lies. Got it.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Newt is hated by any simians higher than austrolopithicus .
AdLib : Sally – Everytime you hear Palin is considering running, remember that everything she says is a lie.
AdLib : Newt is hated by Baggers, he may have some votes but he’s not one of them.
SallyT : Tonight I heard that Palin was considering again.
2ndClassCitizenPun : One of the observations I’ve seen is this year’s pseudocon line-up makes Sarah look palatable.
javaz : Newt has filled the spot
AdLib : NEXT TOPIC – CAIN’S SEXUAL HARASSMENT PAST AND PRESENT (“PRINCESS NANCY”) HAS DERAILED HIS LEAD, RICK PERRY CAN’T THINK OF 3 REASONS HE SHOULD BE ELECTED…WILL SOMEONE ELSE JUMP IN AT THE LAST MINUTE TO GRAB THE BAGGER VOTE OR HAS ROMNEY ESSENTIALLY WON BY DEFAULT?
2ndClassCitizenPun : But TheHerman wouldn’t be a viable candidate for me without the allegations.
SallyT : I don’t think Gary Hart pulled that girl down on his lap on the Monkey Business boat.
2ndClassCitizenPun : I find it questionable how people can let things slide until the defendant runs for office. But I also question how any party can allow someone to run without vetting them sufficiently.
javaz : What is the topic?
SallyT : AD SQUIRREL
AdLib : Hey Sally!
2ndClassCitizenPun : Hi Sally
2ndClassCitizenPun : I got tired of accusations of sexual harrassment, et al., during a campaign, with Gary Hart.
SallyT : I’m voting for Biden. Obama comes with the ticket. Don’t jump me. It’s a joke!
AdLib : There are three reasons all Progressioves should vote for Obama. To push back against the 1%, to protect Medicare and SS and third…uh…hol d on…er…the EPA? Nope…er…I can’t remember. Oops!
javaz : What?
2ndClassCitizenPun : Most of them can handle it themselves, from my experience.
javaz : LOL
javaz : Herman Cain harassing women
2ndClassCitizenPun : Okay, great, what’s the next subject tonight?
javaz : LOOL – I’m voting for Obama
2ndClassCitizenPun : gods, my typing sucks.
2ndClassCitizenPun : For the Scarcrow?
javaz : I’m voting for him.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Can we agree yet that Obama is are only possible candidate, or are we voting for the Scarecrow next year?
2ndClassCitizenPun : An agitator answers questions.
javaz : And to think that I was always a liberal. I really do not know what I am. I’m just an older lady getting by.
funksands : javaz are you being an agitator again?
MurphTheSurf3 : Funk….hot stuff going on, review the thread.
2ndClassCitizenPun : DOMA is a social program. It entitles people who get pregnant by accident to government subsidies.
funksands : Ah, Thanks!
AdLib : 2CCP – That does really burn me up, that the Repub House is wasting millions of dollars on defending DOMA while wanting to cut every social program.
2ndClassCitizenPun : “Stop Online Piracy Act”
javaz : I’m laughing my ass off, because you think that I’m a Republican, and I can’t say that you’re wrong, when I think about it, but I’m not – no way and no how – a Republican of today.
funksands : SOPA? Forgive me
2ndClassCitizenPun : eh. All four of my websites are on hiatus until SOPA is defeated. Can’t afford the lawsuits.
funksands : Hey stranger long time no see. How are things?
AdLib : Funk in da howse!
2ndClassCitizenPun : I forgo to set my clock bakc.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Hey Funk!
funksands : Hey what the hell is up with the early start? How rude.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Which comes out of the taxpayer’s pocket anyway.
AdLib : javaz – I ask you a third time, please provide a link, as I did for you, that Obama would support any decrease in SS benefits. Otherwise, please stop asserting that he does.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Adlib, instead DOMA is being defended by the GOP, to the tune of $52 a minute.
AdLib : 2CCP – DADT is dead thanks to Obama. DOMA is not being defended by Obama’s Admin. No President has done more to advance and defend gay rights.
MurphTheSurf3 : Javaz …..Democracy at work. Ask my friends in NC who worked so hard to put school back in the hands of reasonable people educating young people for the 21st and not the 19th century. A millionaire TP type literally bought the board, but only for a short while. Bring back segregation was not an agenda that anyone wanted.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Javaz, I’m getting angry here. We’ve asked you a few questions, but you don’t answer. But you want us to answer to you. What’s up with that?
2ndClassCitizenPun : Does anyone know who has the power to decide which departments get paid in the event of a government shutdown?
javaz : AdLib – answer me this – Social Security is the most popular and successful program – You have no problem with a Democrat President laying it on the table?
2ndClassCitizenPun : Murph, they are just the usual armchair reality artists, who think things should be arranged to their benefit, because they “know how to get things done” but don’t put in any constructive suggestions. They don’t want to be blamed for when their advice fails, if they actually have advice.
AdLib : Murph – Yes, that’s my issue with critics at this point in time. What matters is what someone is doing right now. To keep criticizing someone for what they didn’t succeed at it in the past while they are doing well at those very things today seems to be missing the point of accomplishing a goal.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Not to mention the defeat of that idiot in Iowa, Adlib.
MurphTheSurf3 : 2CCP…folks who mumble, groan, moan, growl, yowl, bitch, pitch a fit….but do not offer another path except one which puts the wrong people in office make me wonder if their ideologues, high minded idealists, zealots, unanchored anarchists, or working for the other side? Just wondering.
AdLib : Javaz – So sometimes politics do work, right? As in the case of the Pearce recall, Issue 2 in OH and the defeat of the MS life amendment.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Being pissed at the GOP Circus So-lame is *not* an excuse to slam Obama. It doesn’t even make sense.
javaz : Big HooHAH for Russell Pearce being ousted. You have no idea what that means for a Democrat in Arizona.
AdLib : 2CCP – On that, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I think the Baggers in the House have proven that they are beyond any influence Obama can wield. Did you see the video of Joe Walsh? He screams at his own constituents, he doesn’t even care about pissing off the people who will decide whether or not to re-elect him. They live in ignorant, impenetrable bubbles, they are blind ideologues and everything they’ve done points solely to no compromising on their nihilist agenda.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Adlib, did you find my Tweet?
2ndClassCitizenPun : I agree Murph. I’m, just waiting for Javaz to suggest an alternative candidate.
2ndClassCitizenPun : I can see what Obama has been doing on gay rights. He hasn’t been pushing the legislative envelope much, but he has been working on making tolerance and acceptance more prevalent. I can see where he is going there. It’s decent plan. But I am impatient.
MurphTheSurf3 : 2CCP – you are unhappy with some of what “O” has been and done, but you seem to understand the politics real is the art of the possible. Your sense that Obama’s dream campaign has not turned into a dream administration is on the mark, but, like you, as unhappy as I sometimes am, I remain happy with him and very angry with the GOP (and its shadowy sponsors and masters.) So….critique away…but we must find a way to do all we can get our man back into office for another four years.
AdLib : 2CCP – Exactly, it is inappropriate for a President to join in a populist protest…it’s kind of absurd as a matter of fact.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Javaz, that is not an answer to anything.
2ndClassCitizenPun : No, I don’t AdLib, but they would back down if he used the right blackmail material. Hey, they are the ones writing the rules, they have to live by them.
javaz : LOL – I am so angry with my elected officials- God dammit – I’ve never been so angry in my life with the politics. Goddammit, really? The GOP is running a reality show as debates for president. Goddammit. This is not what my country is nor is the country of my immigrant parents or our founding fathers.
AdLib : 2CCP – You really think the Baggers in the House would fold and agree to pass Obama’s bills if he was more of a bully? I don’t think they will ever go along with anything the black man in the WH wants done and that would help the economy, no matter how he approached them.
2ndClassCitizenPun : I’m going to just say it. I don’t see Javaz answering any questions.
2ndClassCitizenPun : With the neo-cons calling the demonstrations “anarchist” and the media’s biased coverage, it would be political suicide. Once the media backs off and starts *reporting*, he will be able to make comments.
AdLib : Javaz – What do you want Obama to do about city police exhibiting violence towards OWS? He doesn’t have power of police forces of cities.
2ndClassCitizenPun : As far as Occupy, no President has ever openly supported any demonstration of this magnitude.
AdLib : javaz, I did as you asked, you haven’t done the same. Please provide a link that describes that Obama would support and sign a reduction in benefits to SS recipients. I don’t think you could because I don’t think it’s true, it’s a fabrication.
MurphTheSurf3 : Javaz…what are you proposing…what action do you want taken…what is your alternative???? Or are you just complaining?
2ndClassCitizenPun : Adlib- I KNOW. I think more could be accomplished, but it would take a lot of effort and, for lack of a better word, bullying.
AdLib : 2CCP – Sorry for misunderstanding . I just think people have justifiably ambitious expectations for Obama and in our current political system, only so much can realistically be accomplished. The GOP House and filibustering Repub minority in the Senate have made profound change impossible. So, all that could be done now is incremental.
2ndClassCitizenPun : I am not putting Obama down. I am somewhat dissatisfied. But that is ME, not him.
javaz : Yep, AdLib, and let me ask you, where is Obama or his administration when peaceful OWS protesters are being beaten and abused? Okay, so the president is busy and he can’t support them, but when I voted for Obama, I voted for him because I thought he was one of me – he’s been bought – admit it – as a Democrat he will not actually destroy Social Security, but the fact that he placed it on the table, now, you tell me how that makes him a real Democrat.
2ndClassCitizenPun : I am not dissing him!
2ndClassCitizenPun : I’m disappointed in Obama’s lack of progress on the things citizens told him they wanted action on, through the websites. Yes. Anybody wnat to name a Republican that has done better?
AdLib : 2CCP – I disagree. As weak as he may have been in the past in campaigning on Progressive issues, what more could he be doing today? He has been barnstorming the US on Progressive jobs plans, taxing the wealthy, etc. He’s been hammering Repubs. I just don’t see any objective facts presented in dissing him today.
MurphTheSurf3 : Javazz….are you suggesting that we should be looking for another candidate to represent our POV…if so, who. Recall Nader’s Raid…he succeeded in drawing down support for Gore to a level where…wait for it…we got BUSH! Further, his campaign got a heck of a lot of cash from the right to assist him in doing this. Our political system is two party and that is the way it is. We need to go for the best of the bunch and that is Barack.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Can someone please link to the Progressive candidate we should be voting for?
AdLib : There you go again, Javaz. Link please to prove your charge that Dems are “in on it”.
2ndClassCitizenPun : I don’t think he is doing the wrong thing, I think he is not doing the right thing with enough conviction and determination. But that wasn’t my point.
AdLib : 2CCP – Specifics on what Obama is doing so wrong now?
2ndClassCitizenPun : I don’t like “Business As Usual” politics either. But right now, we have no other choices.
AdLib : Javaz, here’s one key example: “President Barack Obama has stepped directly into the battle over unions in Wisconsin, calling Gov. Scott Walker’s move to pass emergency measures that would weaken collective bargaining units an “assault.” Obama’s political machine has reportedly been working with union officials to organize protesters in Madison, where thousands have flooded the state Capitol this week in protest of a union-busting budget proposal.” «link» Now I ask you to do the same, please show me exactly how Obama has stated he would cut SS, Medicare or is owned by Wall Street.
javaz : But the Democrats are in on it, too
2ndClassCitizenPun : Okay. Can we please agree on one thing? Obama is the incumbent Democrat President. Therefore, he is the only candidate on the Dem ticket. Right?
javaz : I do not know what I am but I will always vote for the Democrat.
2ndClassCitizenPun : I’m not thrilled with Obama’s performance on any of the above, but I’m not willing to see BachmannOverdriv e get votes either.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Well, at least somebody’s getting work.
javaz : Really? Give me a link, and I think that I am what you’d or anyone refer, even though we are registered Democrats, we’re not really – when it comes to social issues such as a woman’s right to choose and gay rights, and the disparity, and support of unions, show me proof, no offense.
AdLib : 2CCP – What I meant is that they have been bringing on criminal attorneys, that’s not typical.
2ndClassCitizenPun : WS CEO’s lawyer up before putting on a condom. Doesn’t mean anything.
AdLib : 2CCP – I fully agree, I too want to see some high level convictions of Wall Street people. I do know that some the WS CEO’s have been lawyering up, hope that’s because something is coming down the pike on them.
2ndClassCitizenPun : And not sacrificial goats. Go for the sacred cows first.
AdLib : Javaz – Of course I have seen him come out in support of unions. You’ve been missing a lot of important stuff.
2ndClassCitizenPun : He needs to light a fire under Holder’s ass, to get some damned convictions of the wall street thugs.
AdLib : javaz – Yes, I have seen Obama speak supportively of OWS, absolutely. And he is pursuing the same goals, taxing the rich and reducing the economic inequity.
2ndClassCitizenPun : I think a major part of the problem has been the Dems are afraid to stand up for Obama’s projects. They’ve been rather spineless, especially Reid. Couple that with Obama’s over-willingness to negotiate, and you have a serious lack of movement.
javaz : Have you seen Obama come out in support of unions?
AdLib : Our politics are indeed corrupt but there are genuine and positively minded people who aren’t corrupt who are in office.
javaz : Oh, AdLib, you are right in that it’s only my opinion, but have you seen Obama come out and supporting OWS?
2ndClassCitizenPun : Why is it okay for the GOP to hold Obama’s nominees hostage, but it’s not okay to hold their pet projects hostage?
javaz : Corrupt- our politics is corrupt.
AdLib : Javaz – You’re stating an opinion as fact. Just because Obama is discussing changes to SS, it doesn’t prove he is owned by Wall Street. He has always been a negotiator, this is far more in line with who he has been as President, trying to find a middle ground to get things done. Do you know what the specifics are of what changes he supports in SS?
2ndClassCitizenPun : Don’t talk to me about Kerry. He folded on election night before all the votes were counted, and we *knew* about the shenanigans in Ohio.
2ndClassCitizenPun : A little more of not negotiating with GOP terrorists, and a lot more of using his power to get things done.
javaz : Obama, and of course I’m voting for him again, but the fact that he even placed Social Security on the table, well – let’s me know that he’s been bought and sold – And whoa, am I disappointed with Jon Kerry on that Super Committee, back then when he was running against Dumbya, for the first time ever we gave money to a political campaign and we gave 200 dollars, and I regret that and will never give again to a political thing, but will always give to the local food bank.
AdLib : My question for those who justifiably have had reservations about Obama in the past is, what is he doing now that isn’t in sync with what you want to see done?
2ndClassCitizenPun : Hello KQuark
2ndClassCitizenPun : My Twit account is @DabblerX. About Clayton Hartwig.
AdLib : 2CCP: Which tweet was that?
AdLib : javaz – The reductions Obama has already made and continues to pursue in Medicare are about efficiency, fraud, etc. He’s never pressed for or supported a decrease in benefits to people.
MurphTheSurf3 : Javaz…not sure if we have chatted before. think not. So hello. Yes….”O” has not been all I wanted him to be but the GOP has been so much worse than I thought they could ever be that I am trying to be the ultimate realist in assessing his performance. Jimmy Carter stuck to his ideals and…..
2ndClassCitizenPun : AdLib, would you mind retweeting my last tweet please? I think it’s important to remember.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Oh, I’ve been around.
AdLib : Hey 2ccP! Long time no see!
2ndClassCitizenPun : Howdy folks.
AdLib : javaz – I think the key is, and hopefully OWS is helping to spotlight it, that instead of entrenching ourselves into separate groups of people under assault by those in power, we need to come together to confront and prevail over them.
MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib….let me know how best to do this…..
javaz : Preaching to the choir, Murph, but I’ve my problems with Obama, and Democrats – REALLY? They place Social Security and Medicare on the table?
AdLib : Sure Murph!
MurphTheSurf3 : HELLO ADLIB….need to chat with you sometime about Occupy. Need your unique POV.
javaz : Yes, AdLib, what they try to do is put us in our place
AdLib : Hey Murph!
MurphTheSurf3 : GREAT SET OF FACTS HERE. PASSING THEM OUT FAR AND WIDE….Under Obama, Americans have seen less corporate regulation¬, 20 consecutiv¬e months of private sector job growth, consistent GDP growth, increased stock market valuation, and the highest ratio of profit to worker wages in 60 years, yet Republican¬s continue to sabotage, obstruct and chip away at the middleclas¬s. Republican¬s want to keep unemployme¬nt high because history has shown that incumbent presidents don’t get reelected when unemployme¬nt is high, which is why Republican¬s are sabotaging and obstructin¬g every job creation bill introduced by Obama, while opting instead to pass 244 bills that rename government buildings, federal parks and post offices after fellow Republican¬s. In their latest piece of obstructio¬nism, Republican¬s voted against levying a paltry .7% tax increase on 300,000 millionair¬es, a move that would have created 400,000 sorely need constructi¬on/in frast¬ructure repair jobs. Since 2009, Republican¬s have blocked 491 bills specifical¬ly designed to increase revenue and create jobs. During the decade Republican¬s controlled congress, tax revenue decreased by 58%, unemployme¬nt soared to 8.6% and 46 million Americans were thrown into poverty, while government spending topped out at $11.4 trillion.
AdLib : Javaz, it’s actually a broader scope than that. The powerful always attack their victims when the victims protest. Whether it’s those in power attacking their sexual harassment accusers, OWS protestors, whistleblowers, the poor, it’s about those in power usually trying to destroy anyone who stands in their way.
javaz : Murph! Hiya!
javaz : Isn’t Penn State proof that sexual harassment exists?
MurphTheSurf3 : Howdy one and all….working hard on the Perry-Cain-Ginri ch Ticket….Presid ent, VP and Speaker of the House….let’s make the coup neat.
javaz : AdLib, I know and am trying to make a point – why is it that women are always persecuted and smeared when they accuse a man for sexual harassment? Why is it, when rape happens that the first thing that cops ask when called, they ask a woman – what were you wearing? I get it, that there are women who accuse men falsely, but can men not see that there are women who tell the truth? Isn’t Penn State proof?
AdLib : Gotcha. I think you’ll find most men just as angry at Cain and his misogyny as most women. No man wants his mom, sister or daughter sexually harassed.
javaz : Cuz you know, there’s no such thing as sexual harassment when it comes to us women, because all it was, was a joke – I was only kidding
AdLib : Javaz, to use Herman Cain as a role model as how men act would be like my using Sarah Palin or Michele Bachmann as an example of how all women are.
javaz : AdLib! I’m trying out my comedic material and trying to think like a man
javaz : Lookin’ good, and I like how you fill out them jeans along the zipper, and how your ass looks great – and I’m also practicin’ my Herman Cain and referring to you mrn in power as Princes and a possible opportunity at stroking your scepter.
AdLib : Howdy Javaz! How y’all doin’?
javaz : Hey ya’ll – practicin’ my Texas accent in honor of Rick Perry.
AdLib : Vox Populi Begins at 7:00pm PST Tonight! Hope to see you then!