AdLib is online.
  • AdLib : Looks like it’s time to wrap tonight’s edition of Vox Populi. Thanks to all our members and readers for making it another great chat. Have a wonderful weekend, see ya next Friday!

  • AdLib : Night Sabreen, have a great weekend!

  • Sabreen60 : I’m saying good night also. Everyone take care.

  • AdLib : A job well done, Choicelady! Sleep well!

  • choicelady : AdLib – you got it. And that is the spirit we need to have. It’s no longer OK to figure “just so I got mine”. We have to feed one another. And with that I am going to bed!!! “Night everyone – and please say Hi to Cleveland for me. I may get back there soon. I will let you know.

  • Sabreen60 : CL, I agree with AdLib – they have to feed each other.

  • AdLib : CL – They feed each other?

  • AdLib : Night Chris, thanks for all the insights! I am now very much looking forward to visiting Cleveland and sampling the wonderful hospitality!

  • Sabreen60 : Good night Patsy and Chris

  • Sabreen60 : AdLib, I agree. I think I was naive prior to the internet. I really didn’t realize that the divide was so great between Americans.

  • choicelady : OK here’s my ideal way of going about organizing. There is a parable we tell in social justice groups. There are hungry people sitting around a table. A large pot of food is in the middle. Everyone has a spoon EXCEPT some evil person has put three-foot boards on each arm of each person so that in NO way can the individual put the spoon in his or her mouth. What can they do to get food? (If you KNOW this story, don’t tell!)

  • ChrisR266 : Well, I mist also say goodnight. Patsy, have a great weekend. To everyone, golden slumbers. Enjoy wonderful days and a few lazy nights. It’s been pleasurable and real, as always.

  • AdLib : Night Patsy, have a wonderful weekend!

  • AdLib : CL – Well, as we started The Planet to have a site about Real People and Real Opinions, you can be confident that folks here don’t put celebrities on a pedestal. I like that Moore makes his films and is out there but I was told by someone who knew Moore, a long time ago, that he was an egotistical monster. He’s our egotist but he is one. However, his appearance there only increased the visibility of the protest so despite his trying to steal a bit of spotlight, he actually left more of it on the protest.

  • choicelady : Patsy – love to you, too, and sweet dreams!

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib: You said what you said to Sabreen very well. The greatness of the nation has always resided in its ability to handle diversity. We must find a way to value and retain that.

  • Sabreen60 : Moore found in necessary to get his dig into Pres. Obama for hiring Geithner & Summers.

  • choicelady : Chris – yes, that makes great sense!

  • PatsyT : Hey Guys I have to sign off… Love to you all … have a great weekend!

  • choicelady : AdLib – if it’s the battered wife syndrome, it’s the woman who has met a new guy, a GOOD guy, but can’t trust him yet. He will have to keep on keepin’ on so she can see he’s not her ex. Will take a lot of patience. And the snots who do NOT care can ruin it all if we don’t keep close watch!

  • AdLib : Sabreen – I would agree that elitists poison the water, in both parties. It is a two way street though, I have read posts from people who are obsessed with attacking those on the coasts as being awful. Both sides need to put away the provincialism and be Americans together. Like the old cartoon shows, we have to recognize that we each bring something different to the table and though we may consider what we bring as more important, without all of it, we have nothing.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I do think the Wall Street actions are important. I think I got more peeved at Moore who had nothing to do with it but claimed the limelight anyway. I am sorry he’s turned into a prat. I used to love him – once even corresponded with him back and forth, in the early 90s, but he’s too good for the likes of me now. Bah. Humbug! But the movement? Yup – it is everywhere. That’s why I wanted people to know about the anti-foreclosure movements in Boston and LA. There is a LOT going on – better than what happened after Kent State even! We need to keep on top of it all and let people KNOW. And we need for it to stay authentic and NOT get coopted and over organized by “stars” who think they know what the messages are, what the answers are, when they don’t even know what the questions are.

  • ChrisR266 : Choice: So, I guess what I’m suggesting, is that pummeling people will ills and offenses, horrors and the threats of socialism or fascism, won’t get anyone anywhere but on the precipice of chaos. I think we have an opportunity to dig ourselves out of this morass, but we need to sell what Democracy offers, not what ideology run amok threatens. Does that make sense?

  • AdLib : CL – It’s the battered wife syndrome, IMO. Yes, they may have been dominated in the past but we’re not that government. We have to be able to join together and work closer with each other or the rest of the global economy and corporations will slice us all up. That’s the message that needs to get through, we’re all Americans together and we need to band together now to rescue our nation.

  • Sabreen60 : “turned OFF”

  • Sabreen60 : I read some comments by folks on another blog and maybe they have point. They seem to believe that environmentalist and some progressives turned of people in middle America with their “high and mighty” attitudes. They were of the opinion that many people who farm, hunt and love the land would stand with the environmentalist if they didn’t feel as though they are being looked down on. So, if true, maybe we liberals need to stop thinking we’re superior because of degrees, etc. and let folks know we have a lot in common.

  • AdLib : CL – Excellent! Very nicely expressed. I would add that just coming together can be enough at this point, just connecting on the basic issues that matter to all of us. This is the thing that I saw in the Occupy Wall Street protest that I think some folks may have missed. It doesn’t matter that they didn’t have a specific demand, they are bringing people together over a general sentiment that we share. Really, it may be the only way to bring the majority together, keeping the details aside and the sentiment in focus. The sentiment being, “We’re all going through tough times, we’re all in this together and we have to come together to fight back the wealthy and powerful who are oppressing us.” That’s enough for now, the specifics can come later, once we’re together.

  • choicelady : Chris – I absolutely agree about folks in Cleveland and elsewhere in the Midwest. Just friendly people. I love them and miss them a lot.

  • choicelady : Rats – hit the worng key. Ranchers and environmentalist s joined forces when oil and gas interests were given carte blance by Bush to tear up range land and destroy what is both habitat and range. These sorts of alliances need to be nurtured. We often have more in common than we realize.

  • ChrisR266 : I should probably get going, but I do have one last thought: What always impresses me about Cleveland is the absolute, raw, and the unabashed pleasantness and charm of the people I meet. It is a Midwest thing, people tell me, but they want to be friendly. Friendliness begets friendliness, kindness begets kindness. And, I never get a sense that the innate connection I feel is based on fatalism or cynicism. People are by nature good. They wish good for others. They by nature understand that we are social and we should by default get along. Cleveland has been slapped around like a rag doll, been ravaged by all kinds of economic and social ills, but these people are still at it, plugging away, and sharing whatever light they see with others. That’s gold. That’s what we have to find a way to tap.

  • choicelady : AdLib – middle America, the midwest and great plains, just want to be left alone. They fear over control by government because it HAS happened. But I read that ranchers in Montana (remember the Montana Freemen – extremist anti-gov’t paramilitia groups?) joined forces WITH ENVIRONMENTALIST S

  • PatsyT : Choice Right on ! That is a home run!

  • AdLib : The opposite seems unthinkable to me. Why would folks in Middle America vote to give more power to the people who want to cut all of their services, destroy their safety nets and hand more of their money to the wealthy? Who the hell cares about the deficit when you can’t pay your bills?

  • choicelady : Everyone – I make a prediction: those of us who respect the others of us will make a difference. We will greet those whom we don’t know and might not understand with warmth and curiosity. Our first words to new communities Those whowon’t be “here’s what you should do” but “Hi. How can we help?” THAT will make the difference. Those who have run things and always have all the answers? Old news, on the way out. Those of us who LIKE other people? We’re going to prevail along with them. New bonds, new allies, new friendships, new actions. All based on our common humanity, period.

  • PatsyT : AdLib ain’t it the truth!

  • PatsyT : Oh Boy AdLib I hope that is how it will play out… It seems like lots of things are lining up

  • AdLib : Patsy – It is a lot of work though, for any couple to make it all the way!

  • choicelady : Chris – my folks are Omaha born and raised. But my grandmother was the first woman in NE to drive alone into the western part of the state. She was a social worker during the Depression, and she had clients all the way out in the Sand Hills – and went to see them. She taught me respect for all those people who grew our food. I still love them, even when I could shake them for the ways they VOTE! I agree AdLib – the indifference hurt them. But it can be made whole. They need help but need independence, too. Those are traditional people with GREAT hearts. Read Bob Greene’s “Once Upon a Town” about the people of North Platte where troop trains all had to stop to refuel during WW II. They operated a 24-hour-a-day canteen for troops even with RATIONING. They pitched in food and used their coupons for the soliders. It was amazing. Those people still exist. Helping one another is natural to them. We can build on that.

  • AdLib : This year should be prime for a reconciliation between Dems and Middle America. Take the anti-union and anti-vote legislation in a number of states, add in the economic oppression and giveaways to the wealthy and the Dems fighting for the middle class and taxing the wealthy, it should make for a great atmosphere for coming together!

  • PatsyT : AdLib It can happen

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib: I agree with you. Dems need to understand that and get off their asses. Choice and Patsy: Cleveland is pretty damned cool. We were up at the Browns game two weeks ago. We love going the night before. Even this beat up city has a vibrant downtown, people full of good will and midwestern common sense. They’re still in there, slugging away every day.

  • AdLib : Patsy – That’s very sweet! They must’ve been wonderful.

  • PatsyT : Choice The Cleveland Clinic is a big boost to the area. You can live in a gorgeous mansion in Shaker Hts or Cleveland Heights for what a tiny condo costs here in So Cal.

  • PatsyT : Thats cool Chris, my folks stayed together till the end.

  • choicelady : Patsy – Indeed! I LOVE Cleveland! Love The Flats, love the EAST SIDE even – there’s energy there. Love the river and bridges and steel mills. Love it all. One of the best public libraries in America, too. VERY fond of John Q’s if you know it. Great city still struggling to survive.

  • ChrisR266 : Choice: My Mom is Nebraska born (battle creek), never saw a black person until she moved to Ohio when she was 18. Dad and her made (and still make) a formidable couple. She never grew up with a reason to be prejudiced, he could never stand what prejudice he saw around him. We were lucky kids.

  • AdLib : CL – Good points and insightful description. I would suggest though that it is not as much disdain for the Middle America folks that Dems had as much as an indifference. They didn’t see how they fit into the new era for America so they neglected them. I do think there’s a difference between intentionally turning on people and just being so self-centered that one doesn’t think about them. Because I think it is more the latter, I think it may be easier for Dems to do an about face without feeling humiliated.

  • PatsyT : Cleveland Rocks !

  • ChrisR266 : Choice: Amen, darlin, amen.

  • choicelady : Chris – I’m from “fly over nation” – born in Nebraska raised in Illinois. Family roots were in farming though not by my parents’ generation. I love those folks – salt of the earth. Love the blue collar steelworkers in Cleveland and Pittsburgh and Buffalo, too. All of them ignored by policy and the people who made it. Time for a change because THEY are the people who made WI, OH, MI, etc. happen, NOT the coastal liberals. When I told a group of coastal liberals they were BEHIND the curve – they about plotzed! Egos couldn’t take it. I’m no longer invited to the parties… LOL!!!

  • ChrisR266 : choice: for so long, the nation operated like white people outside Appalachia didn’t need any help. By the turn of the century, they became invisible to everyone.

  • AdLib : CL – You’ve won me over on that. The Dems really do have “fields to plow” with rural farmers and towns. The South is tough, shouldn’t give up but the heartland would seem to have greater possibilities.

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib: Exactly. You get it.

  • choicelady : AdLib – in the Great Society programs that made things so much better for people, we really did leave out rural folks. We did a good deal in the heart of Appalachia, the really impoverished areas, but not much for the general populations in small towns. We had a disdain for them – they were at the time fairly secure economically and almost entirely white. So they were ignored. But deindustrializat ion hit those regions hard – and we had nothing to offer since the Dems bought into the “yesterday’s industry” ideas along with the GOP. We were going to build this bright shiny world of high tech yuppies – and these poorly educated white people just had to adjust or get out. We reap the outcome of our own ignorance and disdain.

  • AdLib : Chris – I think you’ve nailed it. Ideology has become more important to so many who are in bad shape that further adversity only makes them clutch onto it harder. Putting aside the Baggers in the House and just discussing voters, I do think that it is like a religion to them, hating government and liberalism is a strength for them and though it means voting for people who will take away their UI money, their food stamps, their teachers and police and firemen and their jobs, it’s irrelevant to having the emotional comfort of “knowing” what’s right and wrong and who’s good and who’s evil.