AdLib is online.

  • Buddy McCue : Bachmann? Elvis or Johnny Cash? Such a softball question but she still can’t answer. She says…. both.

  • Buddy McCue : Pawlenty is supporting a Federal Law that enforces a Right-To-Work kind of structure for the States. He admitted that he was a former Union worker from a family of Union workers. And yet he willfully describes the Right-To-Work status as a measure that prevents workers from being FORCED to join a union. Surely he knows he’s lying.

  • Buddy McCue : Right in the middle of my saying something nice about her, Ms. Bachmann just characterized the Tea Party as being former Democrats, Independents as well as former Republicans. She just said that the Tea Party is comprised of people from a “wide swath” of people from different parts of the political spectrum. Does ANYBODY actually believe what she is saying?

  • Buddy McCue : If I HAD to say something nice, I would say that Michelle Bachmann’s hair looks very nice tonight.

  • Buddy McCue : Watching the debate: Herman Cain just said that the economy should have more focus on the engine, not the caboose. I agree with him metaphorically, but I disagree with him about what part of society is the engine. He said it is “job creators,” but I know that it is the worker that creates wealth and it is the consumer that drives demand.

  • AdLib : Sounds good! Take care!

  • Abbyrose86 : Good night adlib…next week I am off from everything…so I think I will be able to make it! See you next week! :)

  • AdLib : Looks like it’s that time to wrap tonight’s edition of Vox Populi. Abby, great to see you here tonight, sorry it was brief but maybe you can make it next week? Have a great weekend!

  • Abbyrose86 : Dang…I wish I could have gotten here sooner! my schedule has been so crazy lately! It’s still nice to pop in though! :)

  • ChrisR266 : Evening to you, AdLib.

  • ChrisR266 : Hang in there, Abby. I’ll be watching for you.

  • Abbyrose86 : Chris…so glad i got to talk to you…even if only for a few minutes….good night! :)

  • AdLib : Nice seeing you Chris! Have a wonderful weekend!

  • Abbyrose86 : Chris…as for the leaks and house work…not yet…it’s on the agenda for August….just no time, and money is still tight. :)

  • ChrisR266 : Well, I must depart, friends. Thanks for the good conversation and mental exercise. Always enlightening and refreshing. Until next week.

  • AdLib : Palin and the Baggers really are a resurrection of the Know Nothings. Dumb is cool.

  • ChrisR266 : Bwaaaahahaha!

  • Abbyrose86 : or a heart, or soul

  • AdLib : Google used to run around the site and I warned it to stop, it’s going to knock a lamp over, it kept doing it so I broke its legs and now all it can do is crawl.

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib: ha! This latest debacle was truly amazing. The woman doesn’t have a brain.

  • Abbyrose86 : no doubt adlib! Seriously, that woman is such a dolt!

  • Abbyrose86 : No doubt about SP…there is NO way she is doing all that herself.

  • ChrisR266 : I always feel so creeped when I read that google is crawling around here…

  • AdLib : How can someone who thinks Paul Revere rode to warn the British…be on top of all this other stuff. No way.

  • Abbyrose86 : I need ALL of your help…it’s because of the good people I’ve met on line that I am actually doing it…you all inspired me so!

  • ChrisR266 : Abby: Sarah P isn’t playing on those things. She has minions doing that for her. That’s why she always has that deer in the headlights look when someone asks her about them.

  • AdLib : Abby – I don’t believe Palin does all that herself, she’s got a whole operation run by aides and assistants.

  • Abbyrose86 : Adlib…Thank you…I will…it’s on the agenda…serious ly…

  • Abbyrose86 : I seriously wonder how Sarah P can play on twitter, FB and her other shenanigans…un less she really isn’t doing anything…there just is NO time, when running for office and living life, working, etc

  • ChrisR266 : Abby: Busy is good. Did you get your leaks fixed?

  • AdLib : Abby – That’s great news! Please don’t hesitate to post something here that lets people know where they could donate to your PAC/candidacy if they’re interested. I’d like to!

  • Abbyrose86 : I’m a busy lady!

  • Abbyrose86 : Hi Chris! I’ve really missed it here….It’s been a crazy month, so far! Between the death of my friend, my running for office, work and life…

  • AdLib : I think there’s maybe up to 40% of the nation that is intimidated by smart candidates…who have to dumb themselves down to get their support. The GOP demonizes smarts because they can’t win on that playing field, not because there aren’t smart Repubs but the only tools that work for them to win is emotion and especially fear. So, don’t think, that’s a bad thing, vote your feelings and you’ll vote for us Repubs.

  • ChrisR266 : Hey Abbyrose, good to hear from you and I’m so glad to hear you are tackling this. Yea!

  • Abbyrose86 : Hi Funk!

  • Abbyrose86 : It’s been busy Ad lib…my goodness…runni ng for office, is NOT as easy as it looks! I just got my ‘formal’ candidate pictures taken and I am working on my PAC…THAT is a bitch….by the way…it’s official…I got the Working Families Endorsement…an d they were ‘impressed with me” The UAW will be giving me a donation!

  • ChrisR266 : And, Although people didn’t know this about Obama at the time, they did know that HRC and Dean are two scary smart people. Really truly smart. Really truly smart scares the living chit out of 3/4 of Americans. And, the GOP cultivates that suspicion of smart to really horrible ends.

  • AdLib : No doubt, Obama couldn’t have won in any other year, IMO. George W. Bush got Obama elected and Hillary’s misguided support for the Iraq war did too. Without those two elements, I don’t think it could have happened. Which is why I say, Dean too could have gotten elected as the anti-war, populist candidate.

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib: You got me thinking about this Dean and HRC thing. Honestly, if things hadn’t sucked so bad in 2008, I’m not sure anyone would have beaten McCain. Things were sooooo bad, people voted on a prayer.

  • AdLib : There are some areas where I may not want change but if something is terrible, like our current standard of living, economy and prospects for the future, I’m ready for big changes. Then there are those folks who really would rather live a more dismal life then be shaken out of a routine. I don’t get that at all.

  • AdLib : Chris – I don’t think it’s cynical. It’s the same reason there are multimillion dollar industries like the diet industry. People believe in change, they want change, they’ll even take steps towards change but really changing…that ‘s a whole other thing.

  • ChrisR266 : LOL try “rock” it. ;-)

  • ChrisR266 : Have a great time, Tex. Rick it!

  • funksands : Another 50+ degree day here. F-ing sucks.

  • AdLib : Night Tex, sounds like a fun but demanding day ahead of you, Rest well and have a great time!

  • invient : good bye tex

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib: Yeah, that’s there, and guess what? People don’t change! They are who they are, and the cries of “but I’ve changed” are only acknowledgments that they recognize exactly what the looking glass self is telling them is true. How’s that for a cynical snipe?

  • funksands : Good luck Tex. Go MAVS!!

  • texliberal : Goodnight all. It’s Six-Flags with my grandchildren and several of their friends tomorrow and it’s supposed to be 100 in the shade in Big-D. PRAY FOR ME.

  • AdLib : Chris – Had Dean run in 2008 instead of Obama, I think he could have beat Hillary and won the presidency.

  • AdLib : What’s up Abby? How are things going with your candidacy?

  • AdLib : Chris – There’s also the psychology of yearning for someone you have bad feelings about to turn around and make you feel good about them. The desire for that weight to be lifted and some folks will go deep into denial to try and get there. They want their enemy to stop hating them or vice versa.

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib: I felt bad for Dean then, but he didn’t really have a shot at becoming POTUS. He is so much better in a position where he can use his mind and really command strategy and tactics.

  • funksands : No one has served as DNC Chair for more than 4 years since the 60’s. It must have a built-in expiration date of one or two election cycles?

  • ChrisR266 : Ah, Rahm. He was so right about THAT, LOL.

  • funksands : Hi Abby!

  • Abbyrose86 : Hey everyone! Long time no involvement on my end…how is everyone?

  • texliberal : Rahm was a weener. Can’t stand that guy

  • AdLib : Dean could have gotten elected in 2004 but the MSM had it out for him and he played it too safe when he was ahead. The former though (killing his candidacy because of a yell???) was the real reason.

  • funksands : Geez Ad, sorry I didn’t see your post.

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib: Thanks for understanding what I’m saying. People who understand this innately human characteristic have abused it to horrific ends before, and as we have seen since 2001, are totally willing to play it for all they can wring out of it. It’s the total disregard for any good but self interest that I cannot abide.

  • funksands : Rahm hated Dean and thought his 50 state strategy was a loser.

  • texliberal : Chris we need someone to keep the blue dogs in line. They’ve been more destructive than the cons

  • AdLib : Whoops, meant to say Rahm is old school DLC, corporate Dem, friend of the wealthy first.

  • ChrisR266 : Tex: I think DWS will be ok, but Dean is what Keirsey would call a mastermind. Brilliant strategist. He’s a behind the curtain “Wizard of Oz” type. That’s what the party needs.

  • AdLib : Dean was kicked out of the DNC because the head of the party, Obama, as the new pres, made the call, Rahm despised Dean because Rahm is old school DNC and opposed Dean’s 50 state strategy…which led to Obama winning. Even so, Rahm took all the credit and wanted Dean out.

  • texliberal : funk, you’re probably right

  • funksands : DWS is great. Florida, woman, good fundraiser, cancer survivor, attitude.

  • AdLib : Chris – Another excellent point. People don’t want to believe that evil people are really evil. They want their desire of everyone deep down being a good person who wants to help them and others to be the case. Consider McCain and Newt, each have undeserved reps, McCain as a war hero who just crashed 5 planes and got captured the last time and Newt is a supposed intellectual who we’ve only seen spout ridiculous racist BS. Yet, people bought into McCain as a “maverick” instead of the opportunist flip-flopper he is.

  • funksands : Tex, I think he’s burned too many bridges.

  • texliberal : funk, AdLib, anyway we can get Dean back.

  • ChrisR266 : Is it a term limit or something? Why did Dean stop as DNC chair? He was freakin awesome.

  • funksands : Tex, absolutely. Kaine always struck me as a featherweight.

  • AdLib : Tex – Absolutely. Kaine made Michael Steele look good.

  • texliberal : G-night KQ

  • AdLib : There was yellow journalism such as Hearst in the past but never before was there a party that had a propaganda machine with such reach as Fox News. That changes a lot, these times are very different than in the past.

  • texliberal : Anyone else think DW Shultz will be a better DNC chair than that clown T Kaine.

  • ChrisR266 : Good night, KQ.

  • AdLib : Night KQ! Great to see you at VP! Have a great weekend!

  • ChrisR266 : KQ: the normal person in our country just doesn’t get that ALL media are part of an industrial complex, and exist to MAKE MONEY. The “public good” part of the journalistic imperative is just gone. Folks do not grip this reality at all.

  • funksands : Night K.

  • KQuark : Night all it’s getting late.

  • funksands : AdLib: Jude Wanniski.

  • ChrisR266 : Agreed, AdLib. Maslow would be so proud.

  • KQuark : I don’t recall states blocking funds for the New Deal either. Our political and media environment are far more toxic todayt.

  • funksands : AdL, what’s even worse is that it is so predictable. Why do the Dems always seem so surprised?

  • ChrisR266 : And, while I’m thinking of it, here’s another rub in the equation. Despite what people say to others, they generally believe that people are good, and that others operate with the whole’s best interest in mind. Even when we learn otherwise, we doublethink our way back to “aw, that was just an aberration. They’re really not trying to ruin my life.” (went for the drama)

  • AdLib : Khirad – It has become almost cartoonish how the Repubs abuse power when they have it then spend every moment when they don’t decrying the abuse of power. What assholes.

  • KQuark : The ’30s was a different time with the media and opposition as well. Can you imagine if the Repugs back then were able to trumpet the American Nazi party like Faux News did the Tea Party.

  • funksands : KQuark, you know where FDR got all of his money? From his mother who inherited it from her father, who made his fortune smuggling opium into and out of China. There are many many blue blood east coast patrician families who made their fortune that way.

  • AdLib : Chris – Self-preservatio n is a Dem issue this time around. Anyone who wants to get medical care when they get up there in age can’t afford to vote Repub. This issue resonates as we saw in the NY Repub district that a Dem won, it will in 2012 too. Fight them on that alone and we can win.

  • texliberal : Patsy, find a common denominator and LOVE YA, but stop calling them masses. It’s a non-starter with that bunch

  • ChrisR266 : Khirad: yep.

  • Khirad : That 9/11 thing is funny. I love how with a straight face the GOP complained that Pelosi didn’t want to “let a crisis go to waste”. Hmmm…. Health Care, or invading Iraq? I think the win here goes to the Dems.

  • ChrisR266 : And, remember that presumption has some positive attributes, too: “Leave Medicare alone” is just one of those moments that presumption saves people from themselves.

  • AdLib : Chris – Indeed. Just as after 9/11 the public stepped back and said, “This is scary, we’ll do what we have to, just tell us,” a time of difficulty can also be a time for sunstantial change and opportunity.

  • KQuark : True tex and FDR was no peacenik either. He’s misunderstood to this day.

  • texliberal : KQ, Howard Zinn was highly critical of FDR. Stated he saved capitalism but blew a real chance at lasting social change

  • AdLib : Tex, agree with you on both counts. Dems need a simple and clear message about protecting the future vs. Repubs destroying it. And we can’t take anything for granted after CU, you’re right, GOTV will be critical.

  • ChrisR266 : AdLib: I do think you have a point about the seriousness of the time. We might be in one of those “cosmic struggles” right now.

  • KQuark : Yeah they want change during the election but come time for governing all we heard this time around is whoa nelly Obama is trying to do too much.

  • ChrisR266 : I got your drift, AdLib. Indeed, you are correct. But the suspicion of change (even when it happens) is enough to derail positive forward movement. Take the birthers, for example. They’re a stubborn bunch, LOL.

  • texliberal : AdLib, Dems have to package a united message and not vacillate. But Citizens United will make that an uphill struggle. The fight has to be at the grass root level

  • AdLib : The majority can support profound change if times are serious enough to want it and there’s a leader who can take them there.

  • AdLib : Whoops…meant to say that the proof that the theory is not absolute…

  • KQuark : FDR is an excellent point because the only time we had real progress was when we had Dem presidents and Dem super majorities. Much larger majorities than the Dems had for a total of one year.

  • AdLib : Chris – And the proof that the theory of the public being adverse to change is in Barack Hussein Obama being elected president.

  • AdLib : Also consider that FDR wasn’t the progressive he became when he was elected the first time, he was much more moderate.

  • ChrisR266 : The notion of presumption always stonewalls progress. Presumption says that people will resist change, regardless of its purported good, because change itself is bad and scary, much less predictable than what they have now.

  • AdLib : Tex and KQ – Imagine if a Dem just ran on the things a majority of Americans support, taxing the wealthy, ending corp subsidies especially when shipping jobs overseas, public option/single payer, campaign finance reform, these are all things a majority of Americans support.

  • KQuark : Great point Chris. Everyone forgets it took almost 30 years for Repugs to put their policies in place and still we have Medicare and SS.

  • KQuark : After the drubbing the Socialists got in Spain I don’t see much progress in Europe either. People have to remember they are turning right and they have been cutting their budgets and safety nets more than the US even if they had much more to start.

  • ChrisR266 : KQ: So many want progress but have not the patience to wait its arrival out. The great changes always come more slowly than people have been trained to wait for it.

  • AdLib : KQ – Just as Bush won re-election after showing his true colors as an extremist, depending on who he/she is running against and what’s going on, a true populist Dem could win a GE.

  • texliberal : You’re right KQ, there will never be a truly progressive POTUS

  • AdLib : KQ – That’s true about a possible Repub Congress and Obama pres. Though, the Dems in the Senate can filibuster as the Repubs did. Then Obama would have a choice to use EOs to move his agenda along.

  • KQuark : GN Choice

  • KQuark : I don’t see a progressive saint ever winning a GE in this country. All progress is gonna have to be step by step.

  • choicelady : AdLib – you as well. See you soon.

  • texliberal : See ya Choice

  • KQuark : It all depends on who wins what if it’s two Repug chambers in congress it’s all about holding the progress Obama made his first two years.

  • AdLib : Night CL! Have a relaxing weekend, you need and deserve it!

  • ChrisR266 : Golden slumbers and a great weekend, Choice.

  • choicelady : Well all – this collapse of the more easterly folks has made ME sleepy, so I think I’m toddling off as well. Goodnight one and all, have a great weekend, and sweet dreams!

  • AdLib : Night Patsy!

  • chasethis : I must say, I like the little “pop” sfx. Night all.

  • AdLib : Night Chase!

  • ChrisR266 : Sleep well, Patsy

  • AdLib : Night Sabreen!

  • PatsyT : I have to say Nighty Night to you all and have a wonderful weekend ..

  • chasethis : G’night, Chris–and all the planet.

  • Khirad : Right KQ, I think it was necessary to introduce a little socialism into capitalism, to stabilize it, but even Smith would have been aghast – not at that little dose of socialism, but by the perversion of capitalism by those whom preach its praises the most persistently.

  • choicelady : KQ – that is right about Adam Smith. But as with Sarah’s retelling of Paul Revere, apparently history and economics and anything else can be what we WANT it to be. Truth has no relevance compared to a good myth and fable. Remember when the Right used to trump up outrageous stories about Clinton, and when called on it would say, “Well, it COULD be true”? We all thought they were marginal nuts. Now they are the GOP mainstream.

  • ChrisR266 : Sleep well, Sabreen. Same to you, Chase.

  • AdLib : 2012 is about holding the fort against the corporate Huns. If we succeed, 2016 is about electing a candidate who will tear down some of the corporate control of this nation. Then again, thinking about his legacy, Obama might surprise a lot of folks in a second term.

  • chasethis : Me, too. Goodnight, sabreen.

  • ChrisR266 : I did indeed, Tex. Read it, too. I wrote you back that I was not surprised to read such things, although I am still dismayed by them. It’s a damn dirty shame.

  • Sabreen60 : Well, I’m beginning to see double so I guess I’d better say good night. Take care everyone.

  • texliberal : Hey Chris you get that HP link from the Atlantic Wire? AdLib found it.

  • KQuark : Smith is spinning in his grave capitalism never meant to be oligarchies in ever business sector.

  • choicelady : chase – sorry I thought kes was talking about the Ted Kennedy bumper sticker. It’s just nasty.

  • chasethis : Sabreen, I was the son my father never had (although he had one!). We went to AAA baseball games all the time. My mom was a newspaper reporter who always got us the BEST tickets.

  • ChrisR266 : Evening, Choice.

  • choicelady : NJight kes, welcome Chris! Kes – quite a few people have died in nuclear accidents even before Japan. That bumper sticker is pretty disgusting.

  • Khirad : And Adam Smith spoke plainly that there would be drastic cycles like that, even warning about the vast accumulation of wealth in the same fashion we’ve seen: namely, socialism for Wall Street and bankers.

  • ChrisR266 : Hope all is well with you, AdLib.

  • AdLib : Hey Chris!

  • chasethis : AdLib, once again, I hit “enter.” So, sorry for the inept, unclear, incomplete post.

  • PatsyT : Nighty Night Kes !

  • AdLib : Chase – My daughter loves playing baseball and going to games. She’d get along great with your daughter.

  • choicelady : texliberal – those are already my folks in part. I deal with them daily and respect them when they are not hateful, and most are NOT. That is fertile field for a new conversation and ways of working together on shared problems.

  • Sabreen60 : Hi Chase: I loved baseball when I was kid. My father to me to games all the time. I think I was the son he never had. I really loved it, even though the Senators lost most of the time. In fact, I watched baseball on TV for many years and then I kinda got frustrated with the whole free agency thing.

  • AdLib : Night Kes! Have a great weekend!

  • chasethis : AdLib–I once had a bumper sticker that said “More people died in Ted Kennedy’s care than in a nuclear power plant.

  • ChrisR266 : Hi y’all.

  • choicelady : Khirad – I understand the Randist position, but it’s entirely without economic merit. They may poo-poo Keynesian economics, but it’s about the only thing that works. Every person has a role as a consumer, and if that part of the cycle is neglected, we have persistent and deep depressions every 3-5 years. If you look at the pre-New Deal, that was the way we lived – huge cycles of massive but temporary boom, long waves of bust. People starved in the bust then could not recoup fast enough to sustain the boom. The regulation of private enterprise and finance by the New Deal smoothed the cycles, generated stronger prosperity, and assured more predictable returns for capital. Yes – FDR saved capitalism. Now they want to go back to the rogue days for the HIGHS, but they want us to subsidize THEM in the lows. Great for them, lousy for us.

  • AdLib : BTW, let’s look at this conversation about what’s at stake in 2012 as giving our involvement urgency, not knocking us back. All of us are needed, all that we can do and donate will be needed. We really are talking about fighting for the future of our country and democracy and the standard of living of our kids and future generations. We have doing the right thing on our side and they don’t, that can make a big difference.

  • kesmarn : Oops, Sabreen — just saw your reply. Wow. Those election rules have to change in MD!!

  • chasethis : choicelady, I have no idea what appeals to her about it, but she’s enrapt! We have an entire home library section devoted to baseball and memorabilia, so it’s kind of exciting.

  • kesmarn : Well, friends, tis after midnight here, so I must call it a day. A few of those Palin emails oughta put me right to sleep. Have a great weekend.

  • Sabreen60 : Kes – Just saw your question. No we can’t.

  • AdLib : Chase – Love it! Though we may get some angry Repubs trolling The Planet with their pickups!

  • texliberal : CL, religious conservatives, veteran groups, neighbors, seniors……..

  • kesmarn : Go, chase! Great idea.

  • chasethis : AdLib and whomever else is responsible. We received our outrageous POV bumper sticker and are looking for the perfect opportunity to put it on a right wing bumper at the local HEB.

  • choicelady : chase – that’s so wonderful! I wonder what about it appeals to her? I had a friend who at that age was a huge fan of professional wrestling. On the whole, I’m leaning your granddaughter’s direction!

  • KQuark : Yikes tx!

  • Khirad : Well, I’m thinking more insurance-wise. I’ve never considered that a profit-making venture and don’t know how a Randist could ever argue for no social safety nets without putting grandma on an ice floe.

  • texliberal : KQ I did that once when someone kept dropping 81mm mortar rounds in my vicinity.

  • choicelady : texliberal – depending on who you mean as “them”, most of us do that daily. Can you define “them” for me please?

  • AdLib : Hey Chase!

  • chasethis : Khirad, now that I know she likes baseball on tv, it’s going to get us through the summer.

  • AdLib : Hey Tex!

  • Khirad : Does it help her take naps, Chase?

  • chasethis : Oy. Do not hit “enter” unless you really mean it.

  • choicelady : Khirad – for Ayn Rand, I take the position I’d NOT pee on her even if she was on fire. What I find a very useful argument is that there IS profit to be made with people in need – they are the best customers for local business. They spend every dime in their neighborhoods for food and other necessities. Dump them into the gutter with nothing, and those businesses will quickly follow. That is one of the coalitions I want to build – small business and those on social supports. They need each other.

  • chasethis : Completely off topic, as is everything else. My soon to be 6 year old granddaughter has discovered baseball on tv. She doesn’t care who is playing. Anthon

  • KQuark : tex I’m the opposite. I’m about to curl up into the fetal position and cry for my mommy.

  • Khirad : I wish someone would go on Beck and inform him and his magic underwear that his hero Rand was an atheist.

  • PatsyT : Just ask the Brad about voter suppression .. «link»

  • texliberal : Been reading your comments while searching for my corkscrew and removing bits of M&Ms my grandkids left between the keys of my keyboard. Has anyone thought about rolling up your sleeves and getting out amongst them?

  • kesmarn : Sabreen, can you request a paper ballot there/

  • KQuark : CL I never understood how Christianity and SD mixed as well.

  • AdLib : KQ – Very possible Obama loses the electoral college but truly, I don’t see many swing states being fertile Repub territory after these Repub Govs have wreaked such havoc. Even with their foter ID laws…which a court could overturn before 2012 anyway.

  • kesmarn : Oh, Sabreen. That’s not good. That lack of paper was the problem in Ohio. We do have a paper print out now. That makes me feel a bit better.

  • choicelady : KQ – what REALLY creeps me out is the number of Dominionist religious extremists who pretend to be Christians who spout a Ayn Rand/Social Darwinism mix of economic views. That is so weird I cannot even explain it. I just tangled with an Armenian Orthodox priest who hates my organization, thinks we’re “socialist” for wishing to help those in need, but whose father was aided by the New Deal and was a union guy. This “priest” is so screwed up he became the FIRST person ever I told NEVER to write to me again. I will direct his mail to Junk and have delinked him from our list. He’s scary crazy!

  • Sabreen60 : Kes – They’ve been tampered with in the past. The problem we have in MD is that we don’t get paper receipts. I hate that.

  • KQuark : We have to remember the GOP will do anything to win. It’s all about winning for them. Even their sick ideology is second.

  • AdLib : CL – The Fountainhead is in fact an apologia for terrorism, I enjoyed Gary Cooper and Patricia Neal in the film but once he blows up the building…all connection with the characters is blown up as well.

  • Khirad : Ayn Rand’s philosophy is no different than those of ancient warrior societies. Throw the weak off the cliffs. That’s it. There is no profit to be made from helping the weak, or chronically ill. Nor do her characters even propose charity. A despicable human being she was. I’d pee on her grave in an ode to the objectivism she espoused.

  • kesmarn : Diebold machines are highly hackable I’m told.

  • Sabreen60 : KQ – Please don’t say that. I am so worried about Diebold and the voter suppression laws that have already passed in some of these red states. It could get really ugly.

  • kesmarn : Ohio experienced voter suppression and electronic voting machine tampering in some areas in the last several elections. Jennifer Brunner (S of S under Dem Strickland) cleaned some of it up, but it’s getting dirty again.

  • AdLib : CL – Flynt is not a guy who I respect but he’s paid a steep price for having RW zealots opposing him. Politics can make strange “bedfellows”.

  • KQuark : Honestly CL I forget she is a historic figure because she’s so real in the GOP today.

  • choicelady : Oooo – KQ – that’s pretty creepy to think about.

  • KQuark : CL true just rebranded.

  • KQuark : With the voter suppression the GOP is capable of AdLib I think it’s totally possible Obama wins by millions in the popular vote and loses the Electoral College.

  • kesmarn : He’s a complex character, Flynt. I don’t quite get him.

  • PatsyT : Kes Right on!

  • choicelady : invient – The Fountainhead was worse, IMHO. The idea that an architect who SELLS his designs to a client has ‘artistic control’ over them so he’s allowed to blow up the building they bought and paid for seems entirely at odds with free enterprise. What a jerky idea!

  • AdLib : Kes – Flynt was very subdued, holding court but friendly. The fundraiser was in his private office, pretty interesting and actors and more there too.

  • kesmarn : The voodoo combo of the RW fundies and the powerful corporate interests, combined with nasty remnants of racism make these dangerous/intere sting times for liberal thinkers.

  • choicelady : KQ – I think Ayn Rand IS Social Darwinism. She has said the poor must NOT be helped, that it’s despicable to protect the weak, and that those who have the means must be left entirely without obligation to others. If that’s not SD, I don’t know what is.

  • Khirad : And Cheney has his house in the ‘liberal’ part!

  • AdLib : Invient – Right with you on that, now is indeed the time for Obama to give the public a stark choice of futures, the loss of all safety nets and social infrastructure, an America descending under Repubs or ascending under him and Dems.

  • KQuark : Ah Wyoming Cheney country.

  • Khirad : I’ve never been to the deep rural south, but in parts of Wyoming, stopping for gas, I definitely got the vibe that I wasn’t welcome around them parts. A horrible state. Beautiful in parts, but just a really backwards state.

  • choicelady : AdLib – Flynt (flint?) at a Kucinich fund raiser just proves even a blind pig can find an acorn once in awhile. Just because Larry is a pig doesn’t mean he has NO redeeming charateristics.

  • AdLib : KQ – You and CL are not exaggerating, these are perilous times with truly destructive people with their hands on and close to the levers of all power in this nation. We can’t fail.

  • kesmarn : Gingrich said it was a lousy plan too. (Before he back-tracked.)

  • invient : KQuark, they made a movie about Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand and it totally flopped… apparently the characters lacked humane properties… lol

  • Sabreen60 : I saw a clip of Trump on CNN. Of course he was self-serving, but one of the excuses he gave for dropping out the race was the Ryan Kill Medicare bill. He pretty much said it was the dumbest thing the Repubs could put forth.

  • KQuark : Ayn Rand type ideologies that can be as destructive as social darwinism was.

  • Khirad : Wow, what an anecdote, AL!

  • choicelady : Khirad – Laramie creeps me mostly due to Matthew Shepherd. In 2000 while I was waiting for a new truck for my stuff, I walked past a sign in the window of a PIANO store saying “no special rights”. I wanted to heave a rock. What are “special rights” about the right of someone not to be beaten and left to freeze to death?

  • kesmarn : What was Flynt like in person, AL?

  • invient : AdLib, that is why Obama should take a stance now while they profess for the Ryan Plan, he should be on the Peoples Budget or atleast parts of it so he could do a side by side attack ad later on.

  • AdLib : CL – I met Larry Flynt once, at a fundraiser for Kucinich back when I liked Kucinich a bit more. It was a surreal night.

  • KQuark : We are really in a situation as bad as before the Civil War like CL said. We really have people in this government trying to make things worse in this country than better for purely political reasons. We also have ideologies that are as defacto corrupt as those in Fascist Europe circa 1936.

  • kesmarn : I saw that poll, too, Sabreen. Something like 46% to 28% in favor of Dems.

  • AdLib : It’s so early this isn’t being discussed much but Obama has a variety of ways to win the presidency whereas any Repub has very few paths. That allows for us and Obama to focus on those key states that a Repub would need.

  • choicelady : AdLib – saw Flynt on RAchel last night, and he said yes. He’s despicable and gross, but he really does have a sense of humor and “gotcha” that appeals to me.

  • Sabreen60 : There was a poll out this week where more people identified as Dems than Repubs. I think Wisconsin really helped to highlight the radical policies of the rightwing. The protests received national media coverage and I think a lot of people are not liking what they see. Folks in Florida, Ohio, Michigan are not exactly loving the policies of the Repub governors and legislatures.

  • Khirad : Laramie creeps me out. A world of difference between it, Cheyanne and Fort Collins across the border. No, if I HAD to live in that state, I’d never leave Jackson.

  • kesmarn : Khirad, the Gingrich thing took a little wind out of their sails, too. They’re vaunted “unwavering loyalty” wall cracked.

  • AdLib : CL, Flint is doing it again? Are you sure?

  • invient : Yeah because of the Repub Gov in Florida, me thinks it will be democratic in 2012.

  • choicelady : Khirad – yes, flynt is still offering $1 million for salacious stories about Congress. I detest him, but honestly – that’s just FUN!

  • KQuark : Exactly AdLib Repug govs are a godsend.

  • invient : its all good

  • AdLib : Invient – Not slighting CO just accepting the viability of your proposition that CO could go red. The other states I mentioned have Repub Govs that are flat out hated and pushing folks to the Dems, that’s all.

  • PatsyT : Hey come on folks do not be discouraged The Repubs will surely do something more dumb then Weiner

  • Khirad : Has Larry Flynt offered more money? That would be awesome to get another scandal. It would serve them right for their over-reach-aroun d on Weiner. They’ve already proven to have not even the foresight to see Vitter thrown back at them. It really is galling how stupid, hypocritical and craven they are. Another GOP scandal à la 2006 would really deflate the social conservatives in an already unstellar field they’ve got going momentum wise so far.

  • choicelady : invient – NOT being Wyoming is a good thing. I broke down in WY in 1981 then again in 2000 in EXACTLY the same spot, even staying in the same motel in Laramie. I am probably biased, but WY is NOT my fave state – and I tell people to avoid the Laramie Triangle…

  • kesmarn : I really hope you’re right, c’lady. They are totally saturating the airwaves with messages about the need to “balance the budget and be responsible and give control back to local government.” Buzzwords.

  • AdLib : KQ – Dems are always at risk of losing due to their arrogance but I think the spanking in 2010 knocked a bit of that out of them for a while.

  • KQuark : My biggest fear of course is people will have the false belief that it’s better to have divided government because having one party in control will be an overreach. Sure people are afraid of everything being run by the GOP but they are almost as afraid of everything being run by Dems as well.

  • invient : Yeah, were only 9 electoral votes… so who cares, lol! Atleast were not WYOMING :P

  • choicelady : kes – what’s interesting to me is how little the Koch money seems to be making a real dent. There comes a time when reality cannot be overshadowed by propaganda, and I think Ohio as well as the other temporarily GOP midwest is at that point.

  • AdLib : KQ and Invient – If Obama loses CO but gets FL, WI, MI and OH, no worries.

  • KQuark : Agreed CL

  • kesmarn : It’s hard to imagine OH going Repub again, but around here it’s never say never. Once more the Kochs are pouring millions into changing public perceptions about what Kasich is doing.

  • choicelady : KQ – CA can be a problem, not for the White House but on the district levels. We stand a real risk of phony progressives letting Blue Dogs or even GOP folks take over just because they’re too busy building empires for the progressives and not working with rank and file. They are alienating people they should work with. It could be a real problem in 2012 in Congress and in state districts. And BTW – I have lots of faith more GOP will show their Weiners than Dems will! It’s running heavily in favor of Christian conservatives turning up in hot water!

  • AdLib : CL – Yes, we have to look in all directions to all those who would come together to protect our safety nets and our democracy from this corporate onslaught. And the odd thing is that some of the less extreme people who may have sympathized with the TP may now be changing their minds and available to support Dems preserving Medicare.

  • KQuark : I was really thinking of Dem arrogance AdLib.

  • KQuark : Yup CO is one of those states that especially if Romney or Huntsman won would be up for grabs.

  • invient : ha, zipped!

  • AdLib : KQ – I think the Weiner issue will be all zipped up by the time the GE gets under way.

  • KQuark : But we need to ask why is the whole Western World jogging right?

  • KQuark : I just think having the GOP own the House makes government dysfunctional again and Dems don’t do well when they can’t do anything with government.

  • choicelady : AdLib – you and I have talked about new coalitions. I think that HAS to be part of our work. WE can’t be too proud to work with whoever is out there doing good things EVEN if sometimes we don’t agree with them on other things.

  • invient : KQuark, I was listening to progressive talk radio here and they are seriously worried that Colorado could swing to Repub again… Of course their analysis was centered on the denver mayor results, it feels like republicans are better organized here.

  • AdLib : Let’s consider the swing states, KQ. Each has an unpopular Repub governor making the case for Dems. MI, WI, FL, OH, if Obama wins most of those, he wins.

  • KQuark : AdLib you afraid more Dems gonna show their Weiners?

  • kesmarn : c’lady, when they got policemen, firemen, teachers and municipal workers mad at them, they made a huge error.

  • KQuark : CA is not going to be a problem. Hell even MA is a no brainer even if Romney runs. It’s those damn swing states again.

  • AdLib : CL – Yes, arrogance and ego are the two things that will allow Dems to grab defeat from the jaws of success. Those who would use this time for self-aggrandizem ent or ego gratification need to be shunned. We need to come together with those who are genuine in their beliefs.

  • kesmarn : invient, I’m sorry. I just saw your comment below directed to me and –yes– totally agree. (This can happen on busy nights!)

  • choicelady : AdLib – well, you know what’s going on in CA. I think new coalitions that just keep doing what you’re saying have to step up and function with or without the others who are too busy building empires and massaging their own egos. My money is on labor as a leader, even when sometimes I want to bop some of the leaders. Overall, working families get it and get GREAT messaging about the current situation.

  • AdLib : invient – Right you are and we’ll be making our contributions on that front!

  • kesmarn : AdLib, my son and I were talking tonight. I said that when I was younger I thought the U.S. was indestructible. Too smart, too rich, too strong to really go down. Now I’ve lost that attitude.

  • PatsyT : Hi invient.. Humor is a specialty around here…

  • invient : Adlib, may I also add in a satirical viral video… humor is a great vehicle to drive a point across…

  • AdLib : Patsy, to educate folks we have to reach out through social networking, phone banks and donating to groups doing mailers. Press the media, letters to the editors, we have to pull out all the stops. Losing in 2012 is not an option.

  • kesmarn : It has to be Obama.

  • kesmarn : Yes, c’lady. I know people like that. Arrogant. I always ask them: “Tell me then — just whom are you going to vote for?”

  • Sabreen60 : Kes – Yep :)

  • choicelady : AdLib – I agree. There has never been a moment so critical, not even the Civil War. Kes – I think the masses are ahead of us if you look at the laboring folks in the Mid West. They GET IT. Here in CA the problem is that the “progressives” think they are leading when they are not even following. They could destroy a LOT of the momentum with their arrogance.

  • kesmarn : Hah! we were typing pretty much the same thought, Sabreen.

  • AdLib : Kes – That’s what worries me a bit. Thankfully, we have our own scarecrows, killing Medicare, SS and the parts of ACA that people like. Not to mention killing education and police and fire.

  • KQuark : Adlib agree 100% if this group of Repugs gets elected it’s game over.

  • kesmarn : The Ryan plan and the incredibly weak Repub field help, KQ.

  • Sabreen60 : Kes: The Repubs have handed the Dems a gift with Ryan’s Kill Medicare bill and Rep. Heck has called Social Security a pyramid scheme and wants to privatize it. These are not winning over the hearts and minds of the public.

  • invient : Kes, I fear your right… but people also like their safety nets which I believe they all know what will happen if a repubs get the white house… Like someone said before, people are invested in keeping the economy the main topic, and I believe wall street is having its own role in this by keeping credit bottled up.

  • KQuark : Agreed about the electorate Kes. That’s why I don’t think it’s worth making moves that look political now. We are such a long way off anything can happen and for now I would let the GOP hang themselves because they are doing such a good job.

  • PatsyT : AdLib, How can we help Educate the masses ?

  • AdLib : Before he left, AD mentioned that he thought the US has survived worse than the current crop of Repubs and that we’ll survive them too. I disagree, I think we’re at a turning point now, after the delicate position the crash has put us in. A repub presidency in 2012 will, IMO, push us so far down the mountain we will probably never see America in anything other than decline for the rest of our lifetimes. This is a critical moment in history.

  • choicelady : Khirad – I’m sorry, I’ve not been keeping up. That is MOST interesting! Thank you for all the work you’ve been doing on his incredible moment in history.

  • kesmarn : AdLib, I worry that some peoples’ thought processes are so simple it amounts to: “Gas expensive. Credit card bills too high. No raise in 2 years. Obama bad.” The one thing that did seem to register was getting bin Laden.

  • KQuark : Considering the clamp down Khirad any demonstrations in Tripoli are extremely brave. I also think the reports about Qaddafi’s son negotiating is eye opening because it sounds like his family at least knows the inevitable.

  • Khirad : Yup, I posted a couple daytime ones. They’re not large, like about 40-50 people, but as I noted, one was in the central souk, and that’s a pretty serious crack in such a regime.

  • kesmarn : Ghaddafi reminds me of Rasputin. How many bombs and bullets can he dodge/has he dodged?

  • AdLib : So…will the majority of voters be educated by the Dems and folks like us to the reality of the doom the Repubs represent for 99% of Americans or will their lies about making everything better by replacing Obama be lapped up by desperate people?

  • PatsyT : CL great points …. Thanks

  • Sabreen60 : Hi Khirad.

  • KQuark : Demonstrations in Tripoli? I missed that one.

  • Khirad : I hate making predictions like this. I think it’s safe to say that if NATO doesn’t go soft that he has a few months. If the rebels keep up the pincer they have and more demonstrations are seen in Tripoli, it could implode very suddenly.

  • invient : choice – never head of that national bank idea, knew about North Dakota’s bank though. I am all for that. As for European manufacturing, have you heard of the Mandragon Corporation?

  • kesmarn : Haha! See my comment below yours. I think I’m really losing it tonight.

  • choicelady : Hi Khirad!

  • choicelady : kes – I’m not leaving yet! Unless you want me to????

  • kesmarn : Oops! I just realized you were saying goodnight to AD, not leaving!

  • kesmarn : G’night, c’lady! Rest well.

  • choicelady : G’night AD – sleep well!

  • KQuark : Khirad honestly how long do you give Qaddafi?

  • choicelady : Patsy – yes, European manufacturing IS far more competitive than US. One thing we ALL have to do is address the needs of each nation’s domestic markets before embarking on trade. There is value LOST in that – it is often far more productive in the production-consu mption-investmen t-production cycle to keep things quite local. We also need new forms of lending – and the New America Foundation is investigating the creation of a national bank to build equity for the government AND provide alternatives to commercial banking. It’s already in exitence at the state level in North Dakota and being considered even in CA. It’s not the same as the Fed, but it would be a serious contender against the commercial banking world of oh, BofA, etc. It would also be a great source of reliable and lower interest capital for production. The cost of capital, of payouts to investors, of delays and long-line transfers of goods and services ALL add on expenses. We have become very wasteful in the pursuit of “global free trade”.

  • AdLib : BTW, welcome Khirad!

  • kesmarn : :lol:

  • KQuark : Poppycock AD

  • AdLib : Khirad, the US has been in the same position…creat ing Al Qaeda for example.

  • KQuark : Frankly I think the US for a long time was over employed. Companies had far too many people than they needed. Having worked in corporate American for so long I use to see too many people really work a couple hours a day especially since the advent of the computer age. Now of course there are hard working people but face it who is really indispensable in our current employment structure.

  • PatsyT : Hey Khirad!

  • Khirad : Night man.

  • kesmarn : Hi, Khirad!

  • PatsyT : Nighty night AD all the best to you…

  • kesmarn : Good night, AD!

  • Sabreen60 : Good Night, AD.

  • ADONAI : Hello Khirad. goodbye Khirad.

  • invient : by AD

  • Khirad : Khomeini was so angry with Carter, that it wasn’t until later dealing with Reagan that he’d realized maybe they’d backed the wrong horse in Washington. Oops.

  • AdLib : Night AD!

  • ADONAI : Well kids, I got to get going. I know, it isn’t a party without me but I’ve had my fill of human contact for the day. Good night folks. Peace be with you.

  • kesmarn : That’s a good article, Sabreen. Thanks.

  • invient : That Reagan story just keeps getting worse…

  • AdLib : CL – What it illustrates is that the GOP will stoop to treason and worse to get power for their masters. They can never be underestimated.

  • choicelady : invient – manufacturing jobs are not minimum wage. They are paying more and some have significant benefits and are union. The mid size plants have some serious good stuff going for them. We don’t tend to take note of it though – it ain’t sexy.

  • invient : KQuark, an economics professor I follow (richard wolf) basically says that the only way for China to have the growth it is posting is to basically be stock piling all their manufactured goods in hope the US economy and or other mass consumers come to market… I think US is entering to an era of frugality, but the again I just watch my Dad place a 2000 dollar tv on his credit card… I tried to stop him!

  • choicelady : AdLib – your version is better than mine, but yes, that IS the story. Reagan committed treason. There is no other explanation for what he did.

  • Sabreen60 : Here’s a pretty good article about the method to the madness of Repubs and it also talks about Reagan and his sabotage of Carter’s efforts to get the hostages released. «link» I firmly believe that Repubs believe they benefit from a poor economy and their lack of offering any solutions to the reducing the jobless numbers seem to indicate that they don’t care how many people are unemployed.

  • AdLib : CL – Thanks for the summary, I posted a way too long description below on Iran and Reagan.

  • PatsyT : CL Germany will clean our clocks «link»

  • choicelady : ivient – AdLib is correct though we cannot get anyone to investigate and prove it. Reagan’s “Iran Contra” mess started with this “deal” to have Iran keep the hostages in exchange for which we GAVE, not sold, arms to them. Remember – the hostages were released as Reagan was sworn in. Furthermore, the attempted rescue by Carter with helicopters that crashed due to lack of sand screens on engines? The person in charge of fitting the helicopters was Oliver North.

  • KQuark : I just think until China gets a real middle class that pays a real working wage that the West cannot compete on labor intensive manufacturing. The only reason the Chinese economy is softer is because the worlds demand is down not for any fundamental reason in their economy like ours.

  • ADONAI : China won’t be a problem for too much longer. People need to quit sweatin’ that.

  • invient : Choice, except those hiring jobs are paying 7.25 now without benefits… but hey we gotta compete with the chinese.

  • AdLib : Invient: Upon the death of the shah in July (which neutralized one demand) and the Iraqi invasion of Iran in September (necessitating weapons acquisition), Iran became more amenable to reopening negotiations for the hostages’ release. In the late stages of the presidential race with Ronald Reagan, Carter, given those new parameters, might have been able to bargain with the Iranians, which might have clinched the election for him. The 11th-hour heroics were dubbed an “October Surprise”* by the Reagan camp — something they did not want to see happen. Allegations surfaced that William Casey, director of the Reagan campaign, and some CIA operatives, secretly met with Iranian officials in Europe to arrange for the hostages’ release, but not until after the election. If true, some observers aver, dealing with a hostile foreign government to achieve a domestic administration’ s defeat would have been grounds for charges of treason. Reagan won the election, partly because of the failure of the Carter administration to bring the hostages home. Within minutes of Reagan’s inauguration, the hostages were released. Under Reagan, the Iran-Contra Affair completes this story.

  • choicelady : KQ – I realize the urge to manufacture locally would be greater in a hotter economy, but every day I see the one growth sector – and one that still IS hiring – is manufacturing. I think things are changing slowly but steadily that way.

  • KQuark : Oh agreed CL since we are adults here I use both phrases but political paying our debts is much more effective.

  • ADONAI : I just don’t think these Republicans will be the doom of America. I mean, really? These assholes? Come on. Better than them have tried an failed.

  • kesmarn : KQ, do you think the Repubs are really gonna refuse to raise the debt ceiling?

  • choicelady : KQ – I do agree. If we don’t pay our debts, the entire system crashes and burns. We have to change the title (I think you said this a few days ago) from ‘raising the debt ceiling’ to ‘being able to pay our debts’.

  • ADONAI : Good call kes

  • kesmarn : Or maybe Randists, Adonai — which would be a combo of both.

  • invient : AsLib, that is very interesting, never heard of Reagan doing that…

  • AdLib : CL – Right with you on your description of the Repubs’ confidence that they can just oppress most of America.

  • ADONAI : kes- well that makes them objectivists. Not nihilists.

  • KQuark : I just don’t think lead times are that important with diminished demand the way it is. That would be a bigger problem in a hot economy. For one thing everyone is assuming the worst because of one months worth of numbers. Three months before that the jobs picture was much better and on track to get below that 8%. I think everyone needs to focus on the debt ceiling now because if that’s not increased everything is a moot point.

  • PatsyT : I hear that some manufactures are getting tired of the language barrier and the travel

  • choicelady : Patsy – I’m concerned that the emerging techs are not nearly as fertile a field as we’d thought. People whose creativity drove the first rounds of boom in Silicon Valley all say it’s gotten very corporate and that people with creativity – the work all night and live on skittles crowd – barely exists any longer.

  • kesmarn : Adonai, they favor organized business because they get millions from it. No other reason. Total self-interest.

  • ADONAI : choice – I hope the Wisconsin election was a major wake up call for the people of Wisconsin.

  • AdLib : Everyone remember when Carter was Pres and the hostages in Iran were destroying his re-election? Remember what Reagan’s team did? They secretly contacted Iran and made deals including money that if they keep the hostages until Reagan is elected, they’ll get a big payoff. They did and if you remember, the hostages were released right away once Reagan was in office. Why would they do any differently with their corporate owners?

  • PatsyT : Kes, Yes they have all they need for survival … They can wait it out but .. What about the emerging techs? They are hungry and in position to wipe the slate clean!

  • ADONAI : kes – Maybe. Though, if they were nihilists, I would question why they favor organized business, or organized anything. I think they just want to do things their own fucked up way. And they pout when someone challenges it.

  • choicelady : Adonai – look at the way the GOP started blaming the unemployed for being ‘lazy’ = the high unemployment numbers don’t faze them when they think they can control to entire game. Then look at the restrictions on voting – and they think they have it entirely controlled. They honestly believe they can supress dissent, blame the victim, race us all to the bottom, and prosper at the top without anyone either noticing (who matters to them) or being able to do anything about it. The WI recall may be a major wake up call for them!

  • kesmarn : AD I don’t think the Repubs plan to fix anything. They’re in a nihilist state of mind. Right now it’s sack, burn, loot and pillage for them. No worries about the consequences.

  • AdLib : CL – You make a great point. Because there’s so much manufacturing going on in China, the lead times have become huge, many months even a year to get parts created. That can make bringing manufacturing home attractive…esp ecially if corps get tax breaks for hiring.

  • PatsyT : KQ could this President get any more of a challenge ? And not to mention that they also get to make the Black guy fail if they keep up with this hiring freeze they can get to put that Black man in his place.

  • ADONAI : The Republicans do not”love” high unemployment numbers. Are they purposely sabotaging the economy so they can get elected and fix it? Boy, that’s an awful big gamble considering the size of the wheels being set in motion. Their shit will start stinking soon enough. They don’t want that.

  • choicelady : AdLib – yes, megacorps will try to crush them. In some ways though they can’t if their markets and capital alliances are well structured. But in others – definitely need government protection. A new Sherman anti-trust AND a return to laws stopping interlocking directorates and enforcing fair (not free) trade all are imperative.

  • AdLib : Invient – I agree with you, it behooves Obama and the economy for him to come out with a plan BEFORE Fall, it can be brought to Congress later but get it out and give the people and the economy some vision, hope and practical solutions. Then, when the GOP kills them, run on kicking them out and getting Dems to pledge to vote for them if put in control of Congress.

  • choicelady : KQ – the bloom is off the Chinese rose I’m hearing. Yes US manufacturers can go elsewhere, but lots of companies are beginning to rethink the matrix of suppliers etc. In Canada around Toronto, they brought BACK a lot of parts production – it just was not reliable to have to wait and worry about shipments from China. There was a rebound of significant magnitude. Here we need to lower costs by changing ownership so dislocated investors don’t hemorrhage capital in payouts to those unproductive entities. Worker ownership is a critical link in all this.

  • kesmarn : Patsy, don’t you think they’re deliberately aiming for the worst possible economy to damage Obama’s image? They have enough $$$ stashed to ride out anything.

  • KQuark : That’s the problem Patsy and with big business conspiring not to hire workers we’re stuck.

  • PatsyT : The GOP love the high unemployment #s They get to stick it to the Pres and get the labor force to work for less and shrink the tax base and further starve the “beast”

  • kesmarn : Right, c’lady, there are lotsa folks who would be thrilled to paint or drywall for $15/hr here. Better than nothing.

  • AdLib : Hey Sbreen!

  • KQuark : Sure just tell me how to do something with a GOP House.

  • AdLib : CL – You know I strongly agree with you that employee owned businesses are a real solution to this corrupt economy but most mega corps will try to crush them. We need gov’t support and protection for that.

  • choicelady : kes – that’s quite true. In a housing downturn, lots of people need “paint up fix up” rather than building, and many jobs can be redirected even if they are not as good as they had been. Quantity counts – middle income rather than large in large numbers still helps a lot of people.

  • KQuark : Yes CL and those are the jobs that China is taking with super low labour costs. I know it sounds pessimistic but it’s the new reality without an over bloated financial or tech sector.

  • invient : KQ, I think they will have to do something much sooner than September. I worry about QEII ending and Greece’s financial issues causing another slump.

  • ADONAI : Al – I believe Obama kept us from falling further DESPITE Democrats. Not because of them.

  • AdLib : AD – That’s just not correct. The Dems took the wheel after the car had driven off the cliff, most of Obama’s first term was fighting off a huge Depression. Now, he and the Dems need to compete on the field of ideas, come up with a program that they will all agree to vote for if elected.

  • PatsyT : Hi Sabreen!

  • kesmarn : Hey, Sabreen!

  • kesmarn : Good points, c’lady. And there is work that needs to be done. It may not be manufacturing, but I know there are huge numbers of older/disabled people who need home maintenance, transportation to appointments, yard care, car maintenance, etc. The government would do well to redirect funds there.

  • KQuark : Well nothing is gonna happen before the end of the Summer because of the debt ceiling and the vacations. So to introduce something now is a waste even if it’s for symbolism on what the parties stand for. So in September then you mesch the campaign with jobs ideas IMHO

  • ADONAI : Hello Sabreen

  • choicelady : Hey Sabreen!

  • ADONAI : AL – Then don’t leave it to the corp. Elect better politicians.

  • Sabreen60 : Hi Everyone,

  • choicelady : KQ – that is true in some but not all instances. There are lots of midsize and smaller manufacturers that prefer skilled workers. They are flexible – machines are not.

  • AdLib : Kes – Right with you! The only way out of this rigged economy is to heavily tax companies and let the government hire more people to work for the common good. Infrastructure, science, technology, the fact is capitalism is too corrupt now for us to truly rebound. The wealthy want the status quo to continue, high unemployment, high productivity, low wages. No way out of this if it’s left to the corps.

  • choicelady : There are two significant tax issues that would significantly change things. One – immediately STOP paying companies for going out of business. That law was created for emergency situations such as what Prohibition did to liquor producers. Second, stop subsidizing the departure of US firms for overseas production. We PAY them to relocate. End those two thing – major game changer.

  • ADONAI : All I want the government to do right now is make these giant companies pay their taxes. They can do that pretty easily. Why are they afraid of pissing them off? Let them leave. Wait a few decades when China starts to stumble and we’re still just chuggin’ along. There are things that NEED to happen.

  • KQuark : Understood CL be our manufacturing has excelled so much technologically that we have machines that make machines that make machines and finally end user products. So it’s just not that much opportunity to hire nearly as many workers as in the past.

  • AdLib : Hey Patsy!

  • AdLib : Invient – I agree about tariffs but consider that American Corps will just ship manufacture out of the country anyway, no difference.

  • ADONAI : I’m all for spending. Believe me. That’s what we do. It’s what keeps our economy running. But we waste SO MUCH. That’s what I think of when I think of cuts.

  • choicelady : KQ – what would help do you think?

  • KQuark : Like CL said allot of money was not spent especially money that was going to help the foreclosure crisis. I just think the fundamentals are so far down that government cannot do much.

  • choicelady : Patsy – welcome!

  • kesmarn : Patsy! So good to see you!

  • ADONAI : Hello Patsy!

  • choicelady : ADLib – the corporations that will spend money are largely manufacturing. Even when they invest in machinery IF that is made here, it employes people. The immediate write down for that kind of investment was part of the drop in unemployment, but it was too little. We need to do more and also to encourage different kinds of ownership – employee owned manufacturing would make a huge difference. The Nation showed a significant growth in local businesses over the past two years. We have to ratchet up the size, scale, and type of that endeavor with local control.

  • PatsyT : Hi Folks.. I am going to try to catch up on the thread..

  • ADONAI : The problem with saying “Put Dems in control and they’ll fix everything” is that we did just that not too long ago and they didn’t really fix shit. Just spent time arguing amongst themselves. Which I’m sure Obama was just thrilled about when he was trying to build his Presidency early on.

  • kesmarn : Those corps and their CEOs should be taxed mega-bucks and then govt programs to get community projects done could be funded…finally . But we need to elect Dems to get anything passed.

  • AdLib : AD – Spending on infrastructure IS creating jobs. Obama’s mistake on the stimulus was using so much of it for tax cuts which, as we once again witness, never create jobs.

  • AdLib : KQ – It’s not symbolic, it’s a platform for 2012. Re-elect Obama and elect Dems to take back the House and “this” is what we’ll pass because the GOP won’t. Same thing the Repubs are running on, repealing healthcare and saying, “We tried but we need a majority and the WH!”

  • ADONAI : choice – At the end of the day, that really is my gripe. No one ever goes far enough.

  • KQuark : We didn’t spend that much AD but I agree with your point. Japan did stimulus after stimulus and just accumulated more and more debt. As a policy it cannot sustain growth

  • choicelady : Adonai – we spent too little, and believe it or not, a significant chunk of stimulus money is STILL languishing. There is even some here in CA that has not been used. Obama should not do something symbolic but REAL – and he needs to double down on the irresponsible private sector sitting on ITS public money. The auto companies are paid back and flourishing – that’s what we need. We need a kind of postwar reinvest in America movement – jobs, infrastructure, etc. that will pay for itself. That creates prosperity.

  • ADONAI : It wasn’t just the spending in WW 2. We still had a huge debt from that campaign. it was AFTER the war when the rest of the world was destroyed and we sold them the means to rebuild.

  • kesmarn : WWII helped, KQ, but programs like the CCC and WPA saved lives too.

  • AdLib : One alleged expert said today that corps are just spending money on machinery to replace workers right now, the depreciation and tax write offs and no benefits are much more worth it. If that’s the case, giving corps more money ain’t gonna help anything. We’re in a bad place right now, corps like the status quo, they don’t want to hire in any case.

  • KQuark : The only thing that really ended the GD was a spending program called WW II.

  • invient : Adlib, tariffs would be s good start. But those pesky binding free trade agreements

  • ADONAI : We SPENT a shitload. I still see high unemployment

  • kesmarn : Maybe tax the bloody hell out of products that American manufacturers have made for them in China?

  • choicelady : Sorry – of course. Stanley Cup. I know that. I’m just tired.

  • ADONAI : How does spending address unemployment?

  • KQuark : Adlib Obama is just not a blow smoke type he’s not gonna do something symbolic

  • AdLib : AD – Other than spend, what can the Pres or Gov’t do to address unemployment?

  • choicelady : AdLib – that’s bloody brilliant. He really must do that to make it clear he HAS a solution and the GOP just wants to kill granny’s income. And that, by the way, is totally why the TP is getting 35 people per rally as Cher showed us.

  • ADONAI : Governments do more than spend. They tax, they regulate trade, they CUT spending, and so on. Plenty they can do. Just good luck getting them to do it.

  • kesmarn : I think that would be the Stanley Cup, c’lady — not the Heisman… :-)

  • invient : He should stop trying to blur his colors and support the people’s budget.

  • KQuark : Nope game five Canucks up 3-2 now

  • kesmarn : c’lady, I think voters were more reality-oriented in the 30s, and I think Roosevelt had a rare gift for using language that moved folks emotionally. That matters.

  • AdLib : I heard a rare but good suggestion from a pundit today, Obama should propose and push a jobs and spending plan even though the Repubs won’t pass it. Then, at least, voters will have two philosophies and plans to choose between in 2012. As it is, Obama has not been very clear about what his plan is to improve the economy.

  • KQuark : All government can do is spend AD and with the GOP congress it ain’t gonna happen.

  • choicelady : KQ – is that the last game? Vancouver won the Heisman??? I was there for the first game – very fun!

  • ADONAI : It’s not that the government CAN’T do anything about it, they just don’t appear to WANT to do anything about it. Just bitch.

  • choicelady : kes – oh that we were that smart today. I fear the real problem is that the left gives no credit for how hard he has worked, how much he’s done. They claim every single thing is “easy” and worthless.

  • KQuark : THE CANUCKS WIN!!!

  • invient : Yes. They are killing high speed rail and complaining about infrastructure. Silly stuff in this world of ours.

  • kesmarn : c’lady I agree. I think they’re going to delay hiring, tank the stock market and keep gas prices artificially high. Call me Ms. Conspiracy, but…

  • AdLib : The truth is, whether the public is fooled again or not, there is NOTHING outside of another stimulus that government or a Pres can do to improve the economy. And the Repubs will hammer a final nail in the economy if they win and slash social programs.

  • choicelady : KQ, from my experience watching “pro life” protesters, those kids need helmets to keep from being beaten by their “loving, christian parents”.

  • KQuark : Bingo CL it’s a real conspiracy considering the profits they are making.

  • kesmarn : Someone mentioned that when Roosevelt ran for his 2d term unemployment was higher. But people recognized he was trying.

  • ADONAI : If he stays on a roll and keeps adding ammunition to his campaign, plus a weak opposing field, he’ll pull a Reagan and win it.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I fear that is the real kicker, unemployment. And I fear even more that large corporations will NOT hire just to make that happen.

  • KQuark : I think the trend is more important Adlib.

  • invient : I do. History says so.

  • ADONAI : I have to wear a helmet cause my mom says I’m “full of adventure”

  • AdLib : So, how many here think that if unemployment isn’t under 8% in 2012, Obama will lose?

  • kesmarn : Possessed is the reality, though, c’lady. Talk about delusional!

  • KQuark : I think GOP kids need to be wearing helmets so they can’t hear their parents.

  • AdLib : KQ – Hilarious image you created!

  • choicelady : kes – that “dreamy psycho look” is how she thinks she looks ‘reverent’ as opposed to ‘possessed’.

  • KQuark : Yeah that was a pretty famous pic I used

  • ADONAI : I think the GOD helmet is a good start. We’re still along ways away from figuring out what really goes on up there.

  • kesmarn : That image was priceless, KQ! The dreamy psycho look on her face!

  • AdLib : Hey Kes!

  • choicelady : AdLib – brilliant! Babes in Gunland!

  • ADONAI : HA! that baby has a gun

  • KQuark : So everyone like the “God Helmet” I thought it was an added laugh that it was Green Bay colours.

  • kesmarn : Hey, AD! c’lady I had to disable my Flash blocker to get it to work. And isn’t Hagee and truly, truly creepy guy? And Hey, KQ!

  • choicelady : Hey back atcha, KQ. I still want to know – is that avatar a reasonable depiction of what you look like?

  • AdLib : Here’s a campaign ad for AD: «link»

  • KQuark : Hey Kes and CL

  • choicelady : kes – no. Not the last. I’ve still not really figured it out…Cute though.

  • ADONAI : Hello kes

  • choicelady : Everyone – who here has now read every single Palin email? I understand that a couple show she was making moon eyes at Pastor Hagee in 2007. Went to one of his rallies and was the opening speaker. I’d give a few bucks to get the tape of what she said. If that does not prove she’s over the top nothing will.

  • kesmarn : Sorry I’m late but I had to figure out how to play the Google Doodle Les Paul guitar. I’m the last person in the world to be able to get it working. So– hi!

  • ADONAI : I think the NRA will say whatever they need to say in public but still run business as usual.

  • choicelady : Didn’t the NRA suddenly become strongly supportive of gun laws at gun shows? Guess they did not like the idea of arming Al Qae’da…

  • ADONAI : Well, i mean, who wouldn’t love them besides every panicked bystander within 500 yards?

  • invient : The enemy would at least think twice about shooting back.

  • KQuark : I love how right wingers are tying themselves around in knots to cover for the NRA after al Qaeda said they would use the gun show loophole to arm themselves.

  • choicelady : KQ – even better! Or – defend our Homeland, arm our Kids.

  • ADONAI : choice – Who wouldn’t love 4 small children dressed as the A- Team, only armed with actual guns!

  • KQuark : Tommy Guns for Tots!

  • choicelady : Adonai – your theme could be Toddlers with Guns! That would carry the day.

  • ADONAI : HA! Well played invient.

  • invient : Adonai, so wait now he is an angel. That’ll go over well with the repubs.

  • ADONAI : GUNS IN PRESCHOOLS! Of course! Thanks AL. Now I know what my first campaign ad will be.

  • KQuark : Agreed Adlib I just meant if he snuck through to get to the general he would be a viable candidate for moderates and independents who don’t know how his family killed the planet.

  • choicelady : Adonai – your platform ASSURES you the wingnut and goober vote.

  • ADONAI : KQ, How many potential Republican candidates didn’t vote for or approve of Paul Ryan’s “death to Medicare” plan?

  • AdLib : AD – Just spew hatred and suspicion of the black president, promise fantasies, swear not to raise taxes and put guns in pre-schools and you’re in!

  • invient : The only repub I would vote for would be Jon huntsman.

  • ADONAI : AL – I actually intend to go one step further and question whether or not President Obama is from this planet.

  • choicelady : AdLib – in 2008 I happened to talk to a young man who had a temp job doing security for Giuliani. Well, NOT Giuliani but Giuliani’s MISTRESS. Yup – he’d already started cheating on his current wife with whom he cheated on his second after cheating on his first (his cousin.) Nice guy, our Big G.

  • KQuark : I really think Pawlenty whacked himself with a budget even conservatives call radical.

  • AdLib : KQ – Huntsman can’t win the primary, too many moderate/Progres sive connections to his past.

  • invient : Choice, I would to with what their CEO says on privacy

  • ADONAI : My main plan is to make shitloads of promises to Evangelical voters then do barely lift a finger to honor any of them while in office. It’s worked for all the republicans in my lifetime.

  • KQuark : Huntsman is the biggest danger but I don’t think he will run.

  • AdLib : AD – You still have to question Obama’s birth certificate! Lots of Repub votes still hanging on that!

  • KQuark : Agreed Adlib but that’s the only thing that riled up the GOP last time as well.

  • choicelady : Ooo – when Google crawls, I get the creeps.

  • AdLib : KQ – Christie is such a mess, I love that Repubs just keep desperately hopping from one Repub who isn’t running to the next, praying for deliverance. Lawrence O’Donnell is in love with Pawlenty and there’s Huntsman…as soon as a “savior gets in the race and doesn’t catch fire, off they go again, talking about someone else. Now it’s Rick Perry and Giuliani…PLEAS E RUN!!!

  • choicelady : Adonai – you’d at least be a contendah. You have the mantra!

  • ADONAI : So, if I ran on a platform of outlawing homosexuality, imprisoning abortion doctors, and burning Mexicans for fuel, how likely would it be for me to get the Republican nomination?

  • choicelady : Thanks, Adonai and AdLib. Great to see you and everyone!

  • AdLib : Hey CL! Welcome!!!

  • ADONAI : Evenin’ choice

  • AdLib : KQ – The right could get riled up last year against the black president but if Romney wins, who they hate, the enthusiasm will be low. Still, they will be drooling at the prospect of crushing the black president and killing Medicare, SS and repealing health care.

  • choicelady : Evening everybody! I’m fine with Romney, too – his health plan sucked (a technical term, of course) but ACA is really solid and affordable. It’s a slam dunk – Romney did it to keep “freeloaders” off the taxpayers. Obama did it to provide really affordable coverage to human beings. No contest.

  • KQuark : That would be as fun as having Palin as a Veep candidate.

  • KQuark : I think Christie is the perfect candidate for the GOP he really represents what they are all about personified. The second gilded age.

  • AdLib : And consider, if Romney wins the nom it’s highly likely a Bagger will be his VP (Bachmann???). Then the choice becomes much clearer.

  • KQuark : Agreed Adlib I would welcome the Romney Obama matchup

  • AdLib : AD – Indeed and as Romney and Obama are put side by side, Obama inspiring and Romney boring, Romney will look less appealing and will be far less inspirational.

  • KQuark : If you think about it Reagan and Second Bush where the only real candidates that riled up the GOP base

  • AdLib : Romney is good for Obama to run against. There are a number of factors the MSM pundits ignore, they are approaching this like every other year. There is a huge bottom line. Elect Romney, destroy Medicare and SS.

  • ADONAI : Romney’s problem is he has that John Kerry like quality of being about as emotionally appealing as a small slab of wood.

  • KQuark : I think Romney will win because he’s got the org, name recog and will the the only candidate of the GOP who is not completely bat shit crazy

  • AdLib : Invient – Even then, once Romney’s record of being a wrecking ball to jobs at Bain and MA being 47th in job creation under him get exposed…along with him being a liar and a flip flopper, I think the pundit BS about Romney being a strong contender will evaporate.

  • invient : Romney only wins when the economy is the main issue. So he has a chance. The tea party is a perceived power by republicans.

  • AdLib : KQ – If Romney wins, the Baggers are claiming they will run a third party candidate, they really despise him. If he gets the nom, I do expect an enthusiasm gap favoring Dems.

  • ADONAI : AL – I guess I pretty much have to. They’re all quoting her now a days. I hate that I have no idea what they’re talking about.

  • AdLib : AD – To understand the Repub elite, The Family and Teabaggers, familiarizing yourself with the loon Ayn Rand is helpful.

  • AdLib : Invient – Indeed! And Objectivism is destructive to everything around the individual who practices it.

  • KQuark : Frum wrote a good section about GOP noms and if Romney won does it mean the Tea Party is all air or are their nominees just so whacky

  • ADONAI : What tha hell was Ayn rand all about anyways. I know nothing about her. I didn’t even know she was a “she” until about a year ago.

  • AdLib : Newt, Trump, Palin, Rick Perry, on and on, they’re such users, the GOP nom process is just another opportunity to use something for their gaining more celebrity, money or power. It’s kind of amusing.

  • invient : It’s in there nature. They all like to quote ayn rand

  • AdLib : Invient – Isn’t it amusing that so many of those who claim to be running for the GOP nom are such greedy, self-serving people that they are only saying so for exploitative purposes?

  • KQuark : GO CANUCKS!! 1-0 in game 5

  • KQuark : Yeah that’s the article I’m talking about very cool.

  • ADONAI : I don’t think Newt ever really had anything that could go capewt. He was just always kinda there. That’s it.

  • invient : We all knew he was in only for the money. Although it took his staff a while to connect the dots.

  • AdLib : KQ – Did you see the article about the magnetic bubbles now discovered outside the heliosphere?

  • ADONAI : AL, I did hear she was bullying people using the police. I gotta say that is a pretty big no-no in my book.

  • KQuark : I read today Voyager is still reporting back data on the edge of the solar system. Boy it was great when America knew how to build stuff. Hopefully this “charged” oil will be a huge developement

  • AdLib : So…looks like Newt is capewt!

  • AdLib : AD – Palin’s lawbreaking has to do with abuse of power and she has accomplices in government who won’t allow proof of that to surface.

  • invient : Lol. Well Bristol does have 2020 hindsight

  • ADONAI : HA! No doubt AL. No doubt.

  • ADONAI : And in all honesty, if I were governor, I’d probably try to get my spouse out of trouble with the police too. I mean, I’d still try to give you health care and a balanced budget, but come on, it’s my wife.

  • AdLib : AD – As we all know, the Palin family doesn’t use condoms.

  • KQuark : True Adlib there won’t be anything too big in there.

  • AdLib : Thanks KQ!

  • AdLib : Invient – Someone posted on our Twitter that Alaska Gov’t has withheld over 2,000 emails. That’s what I figured, any that would be an issue are probably withheld.

  • KQuark : I read the emails that count on the Planet. ;-)

  • ADONAI : Yeah someone invited her to a party and said”bring condoms” but she didn’t reply. She did forward it to her email pool apparently.

  • AdLib : Hey KQ! Just making popcorn!

  • invient : Maddow had one about some sort of party mentioning condoms. They said many are redacted, lame.

  • KQuark : I heard that cockamamie popping again

  • AdLib : Invient – That turns the “pop” sound on and off, which you’ll hear with each new comment. At the bottom roght hand corner of the display box you’ll see a “+” and “-” which you can click to customize the size of the box.

  • ADONAI : I would be lying if I said I did. I skimmed. They seemed very boring.

  • AdLib : So, everyone read all of Palin’s emails?

  • invient : Ty. What does the radio button do at top left?

  • AdLib : It’s back after a hiatus.

  • ADONAI : Is the Vox Populi widget new? Seems like I remember it from before.

  • AdLib : Hey AD!

  • AdLib : Welcome to Vox Populi, Invient!

  • AdLib : Howdy!

  • ADONAI : Herro

  • invient : Hi

  • AdLib : Don’t forget to say “hi” when you arrive!

  • AdLib : Vox Populi, our weekly live chat about the week’s events starts right here at 7:00 pm PDT tonight. Hope to see you then!

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