AdLib : Bito – Sweet!!!
bito : “They just announced on Madison’s Radio Station WTDY that they officially have enough signatures to Recall Hopper! #wiunion”
AdLib : Night CL!
choicelady : G’night everybody! Have a good week everyone, wherever you may be.
choicelady : BDM – that is SO cool! In CA no one is allowed to pick up ballots, so they have to be mailed, but driving people even just to drop the ballot AT the poll even if the person is physically unable to vote there, is very wonderful for the voting person. Thank you for doing that!
choicelady : Chris = the decision NOT to become engaged is a real loss to democracy. Unlike any other system, it is built on engagement. Read Tocqueville – it was what excited him most about America. People don’t just vote – they are part of civic groups, discussions, forums, advocacy organizations – it is what keeps us a vital polity. We have lost that art as things get more professionalized , but there are still campaigns where direct engagement is necessary, whether it’s for a person or an issue. There is a need for good minds on party committees. There is a need for people to do advocacy regularly with elected officials. Democracy dies when we sit it out. It thrives when we work for what we want. Simple as that.
BigDogMom : I’m fading fast too, night all, peace to all…
AdLib : Perhaps it’s a good time then to wrap tonight’s edition of Vox Populi. Thanks to all for making it another fantastic evening! Have a wonderful weekend!
BigDogMom : Me too, s/b “absentee ballot”…
PatsyT : I am fading too….. I’ll have to say good night to all
BigDogMom : CL-Our Registrars go to the homes and the ones that are able, fill out an absentee vote, if not they pile into one of our cars and we take them…which they love!
choicelady : ChrisR – I do think those locked into nursing homes and yet still sharp of mind must be in a living hell. They want to be part of the process but cannot. Most of us though CAN. It is our choice whether to help or sit it out. We have lots we can do – even people in nursing homes can make phone calls to get out the vote. They can stuff envelopes, they can TALK to others and get them to do stuff.
BigDogMom : Nite Chris, peace and happiness to you, sleep well
PatsyT : Nighty night Chris, hey how was the game?
BigDogMom : When I was on the board of our little library, I held two a year with the Registrars, might just go talk to the head of our Dem party next week to see if I can get involved in that again
ChrisR266 : I wish you all wellness and restfulness. Keep on keeping on.
ChrisR266 : Ok all, done for the evening.
choicelady : BDM – don’t worry. With us boomers on the skids, your home for retired people will fill, your car will be full, and you will be very much needed!
PatsyT : BDM my local Dem Club does voter regs at the local collages and the malls… lots of young voters there.
ChrisR266 : Pt. two: I think I’m speaking to a more fundamental issue, an assumptive one about how we view the nature of our nation and our responsibility to our fellow citizens.
BigDogMom : Chris, another place that needs help is working at the polls, in our area it is mainly the retired people that work them, but their numbers are dropping, the Registrar of Voters is always looking for “young people”
ChrisR266 : AdLib: but that’s the point: children cannot vote. Teenagers cannot vote. Indigent and many elderly people can’t vote because of circumstance or active discrimination. And, we have enough of a database on voter trends in this nation to know that the voting population does not reflect at all the actual demographic array of the nation.
choicelady : BDM – the League everywhere is different, but they are totally non-partisan. Most places they do outstanding analyses of ballot issues. It’s worth a look. They also run campaign forums where the candidates are grilled. They are definitely a good group to look into.
BigDogMom : CL/Adlib-I drive “my ladies” from the home to the polls every year, but my numbers are dwindling…
choicelady : BDM – that is a HUGE contribution to turning hearts and minds. If people respect your husband, then they will listen to him, and that’s super! And ACCE is up and strong and vibrant here in CA – I absolutely LOVE them!
BigDogMom : Patsy, was thinking of joining the league of women voters here in town, looks like they could use the help, just hope it’s not like the “Junior League” though
AdLib : Night Funk!
choicelady : ChrisR – same answer – you can work any election, do whatever needs doing, and help. It is a very important aspect of democracy that abets voting. Undocumented people can drive folks who are citizens to the polls. Everyone can do something. And should!
AdLib : Chris – Those who don’t vote contribute to their circumstances by giving more power over their lives to those that do vote. When they stand by in elections like 2010, when people with terrible intent are trying to grab power, they do have a responsibility for standing by and doing nothing. Yet, they are not solely responsible for their circumstances.
BigDogMom : CL, it’s best to just discuss and share info, educate those who are asking questions, like my husband does
choicelady : ChrisR – no do NOT boycott the Kochs’ paper industries. They are UNION (Steelworkers) and are just fragile enough in this economy that loss of business would justify their attempts to bust the union. They are interlocked though with major corporations – AT&T being one where Charles sits on that board of directors – and you can tell AT&T that you won’t give business to any company stupid enough to have Charles Koch on its board. The CWA folks are strong enough to withstand a boycott of AT&T. The Georgia Pacific unions are much more fragile.
PatsyT : BDM… everyone should be working on voter registration
BigDogMom : Chris, that’s why getting rid of ACORN was so important to the GOP, those are the people that ACORN served…we need to build the new Acorn/ACCE back up again
PatsyT : Nighty night Funk… I am going to be on the lookout for websites …..
ChrisR266 : Good slumber to you, kes.
ChrisR266 : Sleep restfully, Funk.
AdLib : Funk – Totally agree!
choicelady : As a trained historian (you MAY try this at home) I know we beat the crap our of the Robber Barons a century ago with NO social networking, NO union strength, NO money – nothing but the power of the people. Did it then. WILL do it today. The point is not to overproduce this and tell the PEOPLE what to do. They know. They know full well what to do and they are NOT BACKING DOWN!!!
AdLib : Night Kes!
ChrisR266 : Choice: sorry, I think you misunderstand me. I was engaging in an hypothetical re the question I posed. I can vote and do religiously. I was asking, what about those who can’t? There are millions of them, and the vast majority of them are not illegal aliens. No one seems willing to deal with the issue of what all this politicking means for the millions of people who must bear the consequences of these votes and elections.
PatsyT : Nighty Night Kes… you have a great weekend
funksands : Kes, right behind you. Enjoy your weekend everyone. Ad, thanks as always for hosting.
BigDogMom : Nite kes, take care
kesmarn : Well, friends, starting to get a little dozy here, so before I start typing in my sleep I’d better say good night. Y’all have a great weekend!
choicelady : Sweet Dreams, Cher!
kesmarn : Good news, BDM! and c’lady!
funksands : If someone wants to hit the Koch brothers where they live, make the capital gains tax 50%.
choicelady : kes – I did hear that. Also heard it’s going nowhere.
BigDogMom : kes, I heard the GOP has given up on the Dem recall, they had to bring in a outside firm to do it
ChrisR266 : If someone wants to hit the Koch brothers where they live, they organize and execute a boycott of every single paper product their companies produce.
AdLib : CL – It is amazing. Though they haven’t reached the 50% mark in each district, as they need to, they’re confident they will and I think they’re right.
PatsyT : CL HA I never thought of that… very funny!
choicelady : ChrisR – then walk precincts, hang door hangers, GOTV, do whatever you can. Resident have rights, too. Voting is NOT the only civic contribution. And no, under those circumstances, you do NOT ‘deserve’ what comes your way. But don’t sit it out either! WORK it, ChrisR. WORK it!
kesmarn : I heard that some of the WI recall efforts are coming from the RW, though, aimed against the Dems who left the state. Anyone else get that info?
BigDogMom : Patsy, I can just imagine what the Koch’s, who hide so well for so long, are just saying to each other and their staff…hope one of them has a…sick tummy or something
ChrisR266 : Choice: Agreed. Hopper is one piece of dick work.
PatsyT : Hey Nighty Night Cher all the best!
kesmarn : Good night, Cher. After midnight here, so I think it won’t be too much longer for me on VP, either, although it’s been wonderful.
ChrisR266 : Sleep well, Cher.
AdLib : Take care Cher and sleep well!
choicelady : BDM – fifty percent on recall in THREE WEEKS??????? That is effing AMAZING! That’s got to be on the Senators though because WI does not permit recall until someone has been in office a year. Still – that could lose him his majority! And one of those facing recall is Randy Hopper – ROFL!!!! Now there’s an aptly named man!
PatsyT : What I am so glad about is that the veil has been lifted on those Koch bros. Dylan Ratigan had a bit on them last week! and it is all over the Facebook pages
funksands : Night Cher, no smoking in bed tonight…
ChrisR266 : So the consequences just “are” for me?
AdLib : BDM – I agree, what it will take to reverse all the damage could overwhelm whatever Dem comes in…just as Obama’s agenda was injured by having to reverse the damage Bush left him.
ChrisR266 : Funk: I can’t vote. Through no action of myself or my own.
BigDogMom : Nite Cher, take care, sleep well
Chernynkaya : Gosh– I suddenly feel exhausted–like it just hit me. I’m sorry to leave you, but I have to say goodnight. And this was one of the best VPs too!
ChrisR266 : All: I have been waiting to chew on this one for a week. So, buckle up, ’cause I think this question has some deep implications.
BigDogMom : My question is, how hard is it going to be to reverse some of these decisions and laws that are going to be implemented by these guys. Will they be reversed, because we all know, once something is in place….people seem to forget about it, except for the union busting
funksands : Chris, no..they simply are.
AdLib : BDM – Walker can’t be recalled yet, until he’s served for a year. But enough Repub legislators can be recalled to turn their legislature blue. Then a recall can be mounted next year with the campaign of reversing his assault on working WI citizens.
ChrisR266 : Ah, Funk: I luv ya. Interesting questions: are consequences, deserved or otherwise, things that must necessarily be suffered?
choicelady : Cher – only problem is that not every state HAS the recall to use. Ohio does NOT. So they are using the referendum to alter the law. But Kasich is secure, I fear, until 2014. Then I bet they throw his sweet ass out.
Chernynkaya : There are referendums in Ohio, I believe.
BigDogMom : Wisc has 50% of the signatures needed for recalling the senators, Walker must be shaking in his boots
funksands : Just because a vote has a consequence does not mean that every action from there is “deserved” by an electorate.
ChrisR266 : Cher: yes, but in some states, like OH-IO, recall is not an option.
Chernynkaya : And that’s what recalls are for.
ChrisR266 : AdLib: You are also beginning to unearth what has been bugging me about this response.l
choicelady : AdLib – nudging received! Wink, wink.
Chernynkaya : Chris, also to add to AdLib– they were not told the agendas of those governors. They lied. But I do understand the impulse to say you deserve this. Except, as kes said, we don’t.
ChrisR266 : AdLib: Why yes, OH-IO does, and it has been exercised to a significant extent over the last eight years.
kesmarn : Chris, I guess I just don’t know how to exempt some of us (who happen to live in a land called reality) from the occasional accidental consequences of living in a democracy.
choicelady : BDM – the gap was very narrow in all the states. The “victory” was broad but VERY shallow. That is why those who sat it out and did not vote have a LOT to answer for. I know some of us don’t agree, but this IS a two party system, and you have to bite the bullet. In LA when it was between David Duke and the indicted criminal, bumper stickers said: “Vote for the crook. It’s important.”
BigDogMom : CL-Agree, each one of these guys ran on something totally different than what they are doing now…they lied to the people.
funksands : Choice, absolutely right. Nowhere in any oath of office that I am aware of does it say “and I hereby will do whatever the fuck I want because I was voted for and therefore the electorate deserves what they get”.
PatsyT : CL, oh the magic will never be the same for me
AdLib : Chris – I think that the way the public is manipulated before they vote, they often and unintentionally vote against their interests. To those who propose, “They get what they deserve”, the assumption would have to be that all of the lies and deceptions they’re inundated by have no effect and they know exactly what the truth is. Did the people in WI who voted for Walker know what he was going to do? Do they deserve him becausehe deceived them? SO, as is apparent, I think the dissemination of dishonesty and distraction by corporate interests, to get their puppets elected, does not mean people get what they deserve. We need Truth in Political Advertising laws…nudge-nud ge. And coincidentally, OH has one!
Chernynkaya : And of couse I looked all that up.
Chernynkaya : Yes, CL– Walt was an oh–they old anti-communist group–The Birchers!
ChrisR266 : Funk: yeah, isn’t it? come with me for a minute or two. We can get deep on it if it strikes your fancy.
BigDogMom : Chris, how close were these races, what was the % for each candidate in these states?
choicelady : chrisR – I think the people who do NOT vote deserve what happens. I think people who voted GOP believing one thing and discovering they’d been lied to – different equation. No, the “people” do not deserve false prophets.
funksands : That’s almost as bad as “It’s God’s will”. (shrug)
ChrisR266 : Kes: is that the rub? “The people who voted for them?”
kesmarn : When Disney starred Pluto in “Moose Hunt” was he prescient about Sarah Palin?
Chernynkaya : And you know what else? Their name is really pronounced COCK–just like the NY Mayor’s. But they’re too pretentious to admit it.
funksands : Chris, that is the ultimate lazy deflection.
BigDogMom : If I was near enough to a Koch, there’s no telling what I would do, let alone the dog…Hi, honey can you bring some bail money…
kesmarn : Chris, the people who voted for them deserve what they get, I suppose. But unfortunately, the rest of us get to suffer along with ’em.
choicelady : Cher – why you’re a fount of knowledge about Pluto, plutocrats, and Disney. Who was NOT a nice man, I understand and who would have made cartoons in the honor of Kochs were he still alive.
AdLib : CL – If my dog bit a Koch, I’d have to give her a teeth transplant.
Chernynkaya : AL–:lol: Yep!
ChrisR266 : AdLib: I’m thinking about the topic you introduced earlier. Something has been festering in my brain for about a week now, and it is related. If the vote an electorate casts comes out a particular way, do we deserve the outcome of that vote? As I have been following Wisconsin (and living Ohio), many commenters wag virtual fingers and say “the people deserve what they vote for.” To all, is that true, do you think?
Chernynkaya : plutocracy Look up plutocracy at Dictionary.com 1650s, from Gk. ploutokratia “rule or power of the wealthy or of wealth,” from ploutos “wealth” (see Pluto) + -kratia “rule,” from kratos “rule, power.” Pluto Roman god of the underworld, brother of Zeus and Neptune, from L. Pluto, from Gk. Plouton “god of wealth,” lit. “wealth, riches,” probably originally “overflowing,” from PIE *pleu- “to flow” (see pluvial). The planet (since downgraded) was discovered 1930 by C.W. Tombaugh; Minerva also was suggested as a name for it. The cartoon dog first appeared in Walt Disney’s “Moose Hunt,” released April 1931. Seems fitting.
choicelady : AdLib – I would agree. If your dog bit a Koch, you’d have to get it shots before letting it back in the house.
kesmarn : That’s when they start to trickle down, AdLib.
AdLib : Cher – I knew there was an Arianna connection to Plutocracy!
BigDogMom : Did I tell you when Win was a pup and first learning how to lift his leg, he peed on the asshat…I didn’t see it but hubby was walking him and the neighbor came up to him and said “what a nice puppy…”
AdLib : Kes – Especially when they’re cornered by the public.
Chernynkaya : Wow. The origin of the word Plutocrat it of course Greek.
PatsyT : Kes, I though it was Shrimp
kesmarn : Plutocrats taste like chicken, I hear.
choicelady : AdLib – we need to paint fire hydrants on plutocrats’ pant legs.
AdLib : But I could never let my dog lick my face after biting a Koch.
choicelady : AdLib – thank you. Thank you very much. (You have to channel Elvis here.)
kesmarn : Yes. Yes. Now you’re getting it, AdLib.
BigDogMom : kes…ROFL!!! Win likes that one, first sqirrels, now plutocrats…do they taste good?
funksands : How about those damn Republicans?
AdLib : We could paint fire hydrants on all corporate holdings then release the hounds?
kesmarn : AdLib, we’re training dogs in various ways to sabotage the property of the plutocrats. It all goes together. In a grand scheme. It’s about WINNING.
AdLib : CL – That new pledge about sizes it up!
BigDogMom : They say the new fancy feast is pretty good…
Chernynkaya : Thanks, funk!
PatsyT : AdLib, When the Koch bros plan is complete, we will all be fighting over cat food
choicelady : AdLib – not named after Mickey’s DOG? So YOU say! You sure do fool easy…
Chernynkaya : AL– I remeber the original– all 4 PAGES of that prestigious document for the ages!
PatsyT : Very funny funk, I will check that on out over the weekend
ChrisR266 : Ok, Adonai, bring it on. I can take it.
BigDogMom : kes, plus his fancy suit…wonder if the dry cleaner can get that out?
AdLib : How did we get from plutocracy to dog and cat food? FYI, plutocracy is not named after Mickey Mouse’s dog.
funksands : Cher, you are right. Duly chastened.
kesmarn : Yes, BDM. And then he should chew up the fine leather upholstery.
choicelady : I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United Coporations of America, and to their global domination, for which it stands, one world, under their domination, with a God that they choose, with slavery and injustice for all.
Chernynkaya : Funk–I -refer to stay on Vox Pop– maybe later on OT.
BigDogMom : kes, or on the seat of his Beamer…that would be sweet
funksands : Oops, here are the droids «link»
Chernynkaya : All dogs like cat food–at least all of mine did. It’s fattier, I think. and smells of..of.. KITTEH!
AdLib : Cher – I started with the actual document and “improved” on it so the appearance was an important part of the parody.
BigDogMom : kes, at the end it does…CHOW, CHOW…CHOW!
kesmarn : I hope Winston throws up some ingested cat poop on Lehman’s Gucci shoes.
funksands : How about a Star Wars anti-smoking public health announcement?
Chernynkaya : It’s the one that goes, Meow Meow Meow Meow.
BigDogMom : Win does like cat food, eats it every time when he goes to my sisters house…he also likes cat poop too, but that is a no, no…
Chernynkaya : AdLib–I love that it’s in a pdf too!
kesmarn : Izzat the one that goes “chow-chow-chow “?
Chernynkaya : Oh, BDM, that’s one of my ring tones!
funksands : There are dozens of golden oldies on that site. It is an awesome page.
Chernynkaya : ADL–Prophetic!! and hilarious! But mostly… oh, just fuck.
BigDogMom : Cher, just watched funks video link on an old Purina Cat chow commercial…mus t be circa 1969
ChrisR266 : Ok, this game so has to get over.
kesmarn : There you go, funk!! Give us nice warm, fuzzy escapism every time! Mmmmmmm. Better already!
ChrisR266 : Funk: Bwaaahahaha!
Chernynkaya : BDM– are you typing to Win again?
AdLib : CHer – Here’s an excerpt from our parody of the Pledge: “We pledge to make government more transparent in its actions by stripping it into shreds and selling off every piece we can pry off to the corporations that finance our campaigns. We pledge to uphold the purpose and promise of a hateful America, knowing that to whom much anger is given, much is expected in midterm elections and that the blessings of our emotions overriding reason make electing even clinically insane people who are Republicans, possible. We make this pledge bearing true faith and allegiance to the people we represented the last time we were in power, the wealthy, and we invite fellow citizens and patriots to join us in forming a new governing agenda for America that will finally end the oppression of democracy once and for all.”
BigDogMom : Chow, Chow, Chow!
kesmarn : c’lady, thanks for fighting the good fight on so many issues. The progressive faith community does exist. We’re not all Repub bigots. Honest!
funksands : Kes, sorry. Try this one. I guarantee this will seriously cheer you up. «link»
ChrisR266 : Funk and Kes: What? oh for gawd sakes.
Chernynkaya : AL– I missed that one! Oh boy–a new treat.! It musta been during my Blue period.
choicelady : ‘Night 2CCP!
kesmarn : funk, “skin charring and necrosis”? Those of us who weren’t depressed before…..
choicelady : NOBODY asked my organization or any of the others who were standing by ALL the secular groups offering help time after time. We were told “the faith community has nothing to say” and NEVER asked. So I would need to know whom they asked and what happened. Because they sure did NOT ask the powerful and present faith groups and denominations. All seven Episcopal bishops came out as No on 8. Faith for Equality, California Council of Churches IMPACT, Friends Committee on Legislation, Unitarian Universality Legislative Ministry – ALL of them were front and center. Those groups reach about 8 million people and can TURN them as voters when they are uncertain. Few were opposing marriage equality – they just did not understand all it meant. And they all had ties to the historic Black churches, especially CA Council of Churches IMPACT, so it could have been life altering to have all of them work cooperatively. We did it for No on 4 – same hot button issue (abortion) and won that position by EXACTLY the percentage No on 8 lost. MAJOR mistake to push the faith people OUT.
PatsyT : Oh Thanks AdLib… everyone should refresh themselves with this…
PatsyT : Oh funk you did it again!
AdLib : That is, the parody we did of their pledge…all too true today!
AdLib : Patsy – Here’s the Republican Tea Party Purge…er Pledge to America: «link»
ChrisR266 : Kes: agreed. Vatican walks a tight rope with the US Catholic constituency. Too many alienated.
kesmarn : G’night 2CCP.
Chernynkaya : ‘Night, 2nd–tomorrow might be better.
ChrisR266 : Sorry to hear that, 2CCP. I hope you feel better soon.
PatsyT : 2CCp, you take care, nighty night
BigDogMom : Nite 2CCP, take care
chasethis : And, now that I sit down to play, my daughter is summoning me to watch some Glee something. Sheesh. A mother’s work is NEVER done.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Mom, give Winston my share.
funksands : Every wonder what happens if a nuclear bomb goes off in your neighborhood? Find out! «link»
kesmarn : Catholic hierarchy and Catholic laity are miles apart on so many things! If they weren’t you’d see a lot more families with 20 kids.
2ndClassCitizenPun : I apologize folks, but I am not up to this tonight. Far too depressed right now. Hope you all have a good night.
BigDogMom : Win and I are eating double stuff golden oreos, because he’s a good boy for going after the neightbor, yes you are, aren’t you…good boy, yum!
Chernynkaya : Actually, about Catholics, you should listen to last night’s O’Donnell show. he said 70% of Catholics support the end of DOMA. Or if not that # a huge percentage.
AdLib : Hey Chase! Hope it’s a double espresso!
PatsyT : Hey Chase!
ChrisR266 : ok
kesmarn : Hey, chase! And the more people here, the faster it goes! Wheeeee!
2ndClassCitizenPun : choice, I wasn’t in California at the time, but I know the other big Prop 8 organization had said their invitations were ignored. Not EQCA.
choicelady : 2CCP – waht has that got to do with anything? Everything good is always coopted by the shills!
BigDogMom : Chirs, CL was taking about fundies, we don’t have them here in CT only anti abortion Catholics…
PatsyT : Tweeted indeed !
chasethis : Good evening, you crazy kids. I don’t know if there’s enough coffee in this zip code for me to keep up with the vox tonight. But I do LOVE this format.
choicelady : 2CCP – whom did you invite? You sure did not ask the major faith groups. They would have come. And the young people have to grow up – the mainline protestants are IN YOUR CORNER because they support marriage equality by 13% over those who are unsure. UNSURE, not even opposed. Time to get past knee jerk reactions and fine your natural allies. They are not where you think they are.
Chernynkaya : Now yer talkin my language, kes.
2ndClassCitizenPun : And now NOH8 is beinf used by media whores and shills like the mcCains.
ChrisR266 : how the hell did the Catholics get dragged into this conversation? LOL! Got to stop watching this game…
kesmarn : Or maybe “sheer” curtain?
PatsyT : I meant Curtain, just Curtain
Chernynkaya : Oh, just kidding with you, PAtsy!
PatsyT : Sorry Cher… my bad
PatsyT : Cher I don’t mean Cher curtain … pay no attention to that last coment
2ndClassCitizenPun : choicer, there were a number of public events that various groups tried to invite faith groups to, and they were ignored. And the younger set in the community is very anti-faith, because the negative religious incidents during coming out are getting worse!
AdLib : Patsy – The revolution will be Tweeted though.
PatsyT : AdLib, I looked for it the other day and could not find it… but yes we need to look and see if we werre on the money.
AdLib : Cl – We’re on the same page. I do think that the people always need to lead a populist movement and the big organizations should just help them connect and unify, not lead them. You’re so right, any attempt to try and take over the parade would be disastrous.
Chernynkaya : Patsy HAH! The “Cher curtain”??
BigDogMom : Many of the catholics I know here, republican voters are disgusted with the GOP, but then again we’re in a blue state so that doesn’t realy count in a federal election, we have to worry about local ones here in Fairfield County which are all Republican run
choicelady : 2CCP – that is absolutely NOT true. I WAS one of the faith leaders with 1.5 million people we could have turned the vote for the NO on 8 issue. EQCA and other groups shoved us out the door. They shoved Integrity out the door – GLBT Episcopalians. They shoved the Episcopal bishops, the Methodists who risked everything to marry people when it was briefly legal, the Disciples and UCC churches that ALL supported marriage equality. If you thought the Catholics and evangelicals were going to be your BFF, you sure did not do your homework. But we did what we could – we just could have WON this for the No on 8 campaign as we won the No on 4 position because of coordinated work with Planned Parenthood etc. If you did not know that, it was lousy research and bad interactions. Not OUR doing – we said we were front and center. We got rebuffed. Bad move.
PatsyT : True Cher… but they try to portray that crystal ball image and it has become apparent “Pay no attention to the man behind the Cher curtain…. I am the great and powerful blah blah blah”
2ndClassCitizenPun : Speaking of which, Olbermann is sounding more shrill. His latest Worst Person was way over the top.
kesmarn : Well…at least I know I’m not alone then…sigh…
AdLib : Patsy – Great suggestion! Should look back to the Tea Party Contract we made…
2ndClassCitizenPun : Kes, other than cracks in the braincase, no.
Chernynkaya : kes–the fndies are a lost cause IMO.
kesmarn : Is anyone seeing any cracks in the RW religous fundie’s armor? Our family fundies still worship Repubs, Palin and Capitalism with a capital “C”.
BigDogMom : The paid pundits are going to be blind sided, except for Rachel and Ed
Chernynkaya : PAtsy–they pundints ALWAYS follow, actually.
PatsyT : The paid pundits will wind up following HA! Cowards!
BigDogMom : Adlib-I think many are on to the MSM news stations, they have taken to talking to each other and the internet
choicelady : 2CCP – I KNOW that. But if you don’t keep working with people who are not doing that, the isolation will endure. Things are changing, people are changing, and you need all the solidarity you can get.
PatsyT : The Revolution will not be Televised
ChrisR266 : Commercial. Game’s too intense. Be back and engaged in a few.
choicelady : AdLib – that’s what’s cool to me. The people ARE on message across the country. It’s the paid pundits who have to do focus groups to figure OUT a message. We just need to LISTEN to the people who are on the lines – it’s all the same about fairness and justice and keeping to the American Dream. It’s all about we’re your neighbors, the corporations are ripping us ALL off. It’s all very clear. And yet the pundits sit, twiddle thumbs, and ponder what will “sell” to – they cannot even say to whom. We just need to listen, not to pontificate. And we freaking do NOT need polling firms and focus groups!
AdLib : Chris – That is the key, They own the MSM, they use it to ignore what’s really going on, feed us propaganda and distract us with Charlie Sheen. We need to turn off our tv news and encourage others to do so. The truth is out there, it’s just not on your tv.
BigDogMom : Adlib, hubby is seeing that now, even my clients, the small business guys are talking about it, so it’s on everyones minds…except my asshat neighbor who is now at Swiss Bank on a trading desk selling futures….my his two daughters disappoint him greatly
2ndClassCitizenPun : choice, I saw a lot of faith organizations abandon us over Prop 8. And publish some pretty hateful stuff. And when we asked faith groups to join us, we got ignored many times during prop H8
PatsyT : AdLib, Hey should we look back on your “Contract on America” post ? How much of that has come true?
AdLib : BDM – Then we need to fight fire with fire…or fight fear with fear. People need to be scared of what their and their children’s lives will be in 10-20 years if the corporations win. So as uncomfortable as blue collar may be of white collar, the fear of their corporate owners should overwhelm that.
2ndClassCitizenPun : The reason that the gay community has cut itself off from other sectors, when it comes to organizing and lobbying, is because too many times we found our goals co-opted and twisted around by our “friends”. Or suddenly one of our “friends” would spout off with something that was actually defamatory towards gays and lesbians.
kesmarn : The Fox Lies Guy may be in a dark cellar somewhere, Patsy.
choicelady : 2CCP = what do you mean? The progressive faith community has stook for LGBT rights and marriage equality for YEARS – helped FOUND groups long before Prop. 8. But when the campaign started, the secular LGBT community turned their backs on these strong and useful allies, and LOST. The isolation is understandable. It’s not sustainable.
BigDogMom : Every day hubby comes home with a new story from the many average working guy that seems to always hang out at his shop…they are angry and disgusted…my husband talks to them and tells them why, who and what…he’s a regular Rachel Maddow…those are the people we need to lead this and educate everyone
PatsyT : Why hasn’t some one done a interview of the Fox Lies Guy?
Chernynkaya : Yes, CL–But I’m going to Uncut because it’s right by the Metro line. Great reason, huh?
kesmarn : Patsy, LOVE the “FOX lies!” Guy.
choicelady : Cher dear – you just need to find a way either to bi-locate or be cloned. I’m in the same position. Hard to have to choose, isn’t it?
AdLib : CL – I do appreciate the diversity of people and groups popping up to oppose the final stage of a corporate takeover of the nation. And as to something that sticks, whatever the phrase, we do need to take a page from the GOP and stay on message, repeating that phrase until it’s burned into the subconscious of all Americans.
choicelady : BDM – I TOTALLY agree that “intellectuals ” suck. The meeting I was in with major players from major organizations kept trying to LEAD this movement, when they freaking need to be FOLLOWING it. The people are waaaay ahead of the “leaders”. When the people lead, leaders will follow. Always been true, and it always will be. Best thing any of us can do? Show up and ask, “how can I help?” then DO it. Even if it’s going for coffee and donuts.
PatsyT : AdLib/2CCP getting folks to think for themselves is key … so they don’t just buy the fox dribble like the Fox Lies Guy! «link»
BigDogMom : Shit s/b *doing*
BigDogMom : Are we doning the 24/7 panic like the MSM talking heads…WE NEED IT NOW!!! LOL
2ndClassCitizenPun : “The opposite was pretty self-defeating as well”, choice.
ChrisR266 : CL is correct, we have some time here to use well.
kesmarn : c’lady, the voice of hope. How many times did I say that during the HCR debate? You always said: don’t give up! This will happen!
BigDogMom : CL-your right we are getting ahead of ourselves…
Chernynkaya : Oh, I’m not panicking–I’m just sorry I can’t attend BOTH rallies!
AdLib : 2CCP – As for 2004, that was a unique situation, we still ahd so much of the public willing to overlook the terrible about Bush because he kept scaring them about terrorism striking us if he wasn’t re-elected. He had “won the war” in Iraq, and Kerry probably won the election, fraud was proven in OH to tip the state and election to Bush.
choicelady : 2ccp – huh?
ChrisR266 : AdLib: We don’t walk like the Egyptians, you are correct. WE must be smart and we have to co-opt mainstream ways of connecting. Most operatives just do not get how powerful and more immediate new social media are.
choicelady : My dear friends and allies – this movement is less than THREE months old! It used to take YEARS for issues to dovetail. Every see the Civil Rights movement overlap with the anti-war movement until 1968 when King brought them together? Don’t panic! And don’t be impatient. Some things need to grow internall first – and being active, even if different groups are still apart, is HUGE!!!
BigDogMom : CL-Agreed, but one of the draw backs to get “working families” involved is that they are fearful of “Intellectuals “, they feel that they are talked down to..I’ve seen it and heard it from many…we need one message that all will grab onto
AdLib : 2CCP – We will be attacked and dissed by the RW and the MSM but Egyptians battled greater odds and prevailed. We can take a page from them and use Facebook and Twitter to connect people, even loosely, to a national movement. Then what’s said in the MSM is not so powerful.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Choice, he opposie was pretty self-defeating as well.
PatsyT : Thanks Bito!
choicelady : 2CCP – the gay community has isolated itself from the rest of us. I say that because they smack down people offering help, ESPECIALLY the faith community. I get why (you don’t have to explain it) but it’s self defeating.
PatsyT : BDM, I have to behave myself there, but then I have had some friends say – thanks for those posts I can’t respond to them my boss is my friend on facebook but I always read what you post and share.
Chernynkaya : Thanks bito.
AdLib : CL – Wise words and insight. Indeed, in a true populist movement, it would need to start with the individuals and widen out. Though, with more and more individuals becoming active and involved, it would be nice for there to be a sense of connection with others around the nation who are just like them.
bito : A list of locations for tomorrow. «link»
2ndClassCitizenPun : 2008 was completely different. The 507s were not coordinating at all
choicelady : AdLib – We’ve been at this for less than three months. The fact we have a lot of groups is nothing to worry about at this moment. But allow me to say I have faith in those sorts of groups while I’m mired in deep skepticism about what we “intellectuals ” think we can do to LEAD people as I dealt with Wed. I think we need to find a place we can believe in, work it for all it’s worth because each step helps. Even if initially we’re somewhat isolated, we STILL are using a coherent voice – the ISSUE and Demands are all pretty much the same: “Cut from the top, not mom and pop.” “Tax corporations, not working families!” Cher – nothing wrong at ALL with having two actions at the same time. We did this all through the 60s – it actually HELPS at this stage because it flummoxes the rich to see there are LOTS of totally pissed off people fighting them on DIFFERNT ISSUES. We WILL come together soon, but right now having the corporations and Kochs etc. surrounded with LOTS of different voices on different things is GREAT.
Chernynkaya : I know 2nd. There are also divisions in the greater community that need to be mended.
kesmarn : b’ito, thanks for the link! I bookmarked that one. That’s a great site.
PatsyT : Yes, BDM facebook has it limits, I have noticed many have a alter ego or avi just like HP.
2ndClassCitizenPun : How well did it work in 2004, AdLib?
BigDogMom : Patsy-I know I have lost some friends from what I post on it, but then again, maybe it’s a blessing that I lose them
Chernynkaya : I’ll be there tomorrow at B of A downtown.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Cher, we can’t even do that within the gay community.
AdLib : 2CCP – It doesn’t matter how people would want to paint such a coalition, it sure worked to elect Obama and a record number of Dems in Congress.
Chernynkaya : ALand CL–I was thinking about coordination. I wish someone would have a national list of every local protests/rally and list them in one place. At least then they might all look at the listings and plan their protests accordingly.
bito : USUNCUT «link»
2ndClassCitizenPun : Alliance Defense was all over the place then, smearing us as much as possible.
PatsyT : BDM, facebook was a huge part of that!
BigDogMom : Oops, that should be CL/Patsy/Chris-W isconsin is the perfect example…
kesmarn : The classic “herding cats” problem. When money is not your god, there are a zillion other things that can motivate you. Hence the difficulty in organization.
2ndClassCitizenPun : I know labor history. But I lived through the grassroots activism in 2004, when we were all coordinating. The size of cooperation was used against us.
BigDogMom : CL/
AdLib : Thanks for listing the info about US Uncut on the Daily Planet, Cher! Hope many turnout for that. I mean, who doesn’t want to protest their bank?!
PatsyT : Chris, yes, that way people feel they are a real part of it as it should be
AdLib : CL – You’re right, the DNC under DLCers like Kaine is just a different color puppet of corporate interests, despite all the lipservice they give their faithful. I agree, it has to come from us but having a bigger populist entity that can coordinate and bring together all these different protest groups would be ideal.
ChrisR266 : Choice: I agree with you. It has to start in a microcosmic, decentralized manner or it will not gather the needed momentum.
choicelady : 2CCP – the nutjobs with guns are all on the Right. Do you know any labor history, BTW? You might want to read about the Sit downs etc. We are reproducing some of that today.
BigDogMom : CL-That’s where Facebook and Twitter come in
Chernynkaya : AdLIb– a perfect example– In LA tomorrow TWO separate protests. Why can’t they coordinate and do them on different days?
choicelady : AdLib – until we pin down the national, the international will have to be a smaller focus. We are JUST getting people back being engaged. You start from the central circle of self and family then move out to groups and community then to the nation then the world. No movement every gained that momentum without pinning down the core FIRST.
BigDogMom : CL, sometimes I live in a bubble, but more and more people, like the average working guy is talking to my husband, they are all disgusted with whats going on
funksands : I love this movement. They should be protesting in the front of Pfizer headquarters. It’s estimated that they have $80 billion in untaxed profits offshore.
2ndClassCitizenPun : AdLib, we tried that during the second Bush selection, and got painted as “too organized”
PatsyT : Oh BDM I would love to let my Gordon Setter on him. She will take no prisoners! She is totally bad ass … except to us of course
AdLib : BDM – Yes, I think US Uncut, The anti-Koch rally, the protests in OH and WI, all of this is really working but each entity seems to be fighting independently. I’m just saying we need to sew together all of these efforts into a national movement.
choicelady : Cher – I was going to mention UsUncut’s action – also big labor rallies in LA and Sacto tomorrow, too. BDM – I sure DO think US Uncut etc. is working! We cannot decide it’s a failure because it’s been around for LESS THAN TWO MONTHS! And look what they’ve DONE! It’s sweeping the nation!!!
funksands : «link»
ChrisR266 : Ohhh. Tight Game. Now everyone can have at me in a minute. The issues here are larger than just being mad as hell. The most recent GOP agenda is to kill any chance of people becoming more cognizant of their own position in this chess game and thus able to develop enough foresight to act in ways that are in their own best interest. Kill public education and you kill the access to that possibility.
Chernynkaya : The local action are listed on today’s Daily Planet. You can find one near you.
PatsyT : Noooooooo
2ndClassCitizenPun : Well, people had better get off their couches before the first nutjob shows up with a gun. The moment that happens, any type of demonstration is going to be clamped down, HARD
funksands : You are doomed Patsy.
BigDogMom : Patsy, the dogs is still growing while he’s inside, I bet that idoit thru something at him…next time I’m going to let the dog go after him
bito : Cher, good point, go to USUNCUT to find a protest near you! Take Action and take a camera!
choicelady : ADLib – I don’t think the party is the place. I think we can see that unions and like minded organizations are the force by which we can come together. The party is too dependent on fat cats, always has been. We can do this with the support of individuals such as Franken, but WE have to DO this.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Lucky kid!
PatsyT : Oh no, Funk is going to have another hypnotizing website and I will be up all night
AdLib : CL – I’m with you, I know the tide is turning out there, slowly but steadily. I would just like to see more of an intentional coming together. We all have so much in common and one very specific enemy attacking us, we need to bring all these people together and they would far dwarf the Teabaggers and their power.
funksands : I’m sneaky that way. Hey Kes. 2nd, he is great. Sitting beside me finishing his homework.
BigDogMom : Adlib, do you think everything that is out, like US Uncut, there is working?
2ndClassCitizenPun : Hello funk! How’s the kid?
kesmarn : funk, hey! Didn’t see you slip in there. Yes, some of those vanished jobs are gone for the long term.
PatsyT : BDM, fine doggie you have there, amazing how dogs perceive things.
BigDogMom : Hey Cher
2ndClassCitizenPun : Mom, get a restraining order on Mr. Lehman.
choicelady : Hey Cher! Welcome!
BigDogMom : kes, me too, but I feel sorry for the dogs because they have be near this asshat
Chernynkaya : I see you’re talking action, so I want to remind everyone that US Uncut is having the nationwide protests at banks tomorrow.
choicelady : BDM – goooooood doggie!
kesmarn : I hope there are dozens of dogs like yours in Lehman’s new neighborhood, BDM.
AdLib : Hey Cher!
PatsyT : Hey Cher!
AdLib : There needs to be a coming together of all those under attack by corporate America and their puppet GOP politicians. The 99ers, unions, gov workers, all need to come together to fight for the interests they all share and against their common enemy. This is where a legit DNC could help by organizing and bringing people together under one umbrella. But since they refuse to do so, it’s up to Progressive individuals and organizations to do so.
choicelady : 2CCP and AdLib – the people who rise up are ALWAYS the skilled, the ones with some security. They always start it from the Great RR Strike in 1877 through the sit downs – SKILLED labor, employed or unemployed, begin the movement.
PatsyT : Adding to the pro labor… how about the increase in the latino population?
2ndClassCitizenPun : Hello Cher
funksands : hundreds of thousands of jobs directly or indirectly supported by the housing bubble have vaporized, never to return again. The only jobs that are going to be created are by liberal doses of Anti-trust and ending the tax incentives to relocate jobs overseas. Something, by the way NO OTHER countries do.
kesmarn : Hey, Cher!
2ndClassCitizenPun : As long as the TP is still painting unions as bad, that’s going to be difficult.
BigDogMom : He’s in, the dog, don’t know about the neighbor, never seen anything like it, our old dog hated him too, what does that say about them…thank god they are moving in two weeks, bought a bigger house in a better neighborhood…
Chernynkaya : Hi Y’all!
choicelady : AdLib – all over America people, employed and unemployed, faith and secular – they ARE rising up daily. It is NOT going to happen overnight, but they ARE mad as hell and they are NOT going to take it anymore. We in CA see LESS of this than anyone because we ARE inclined to let “experts” run the show. Tomorrow in LA and in Sacto there are significant labor marches in solidarity with WI etc. AND on behalf of working people in the US. The one here is for LAtino labor for Cesar Chavez’s birthday MOnday.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Patsy, the police would shoot the dog in ten seconds.
kesmarn : Heh-heh. Wait’ll Google crawls the site on that one!
PatsyT : Can we get that dog on Wall Street?
kesmarn : No, BDM! Don’t stop the dog attack on Mr. Lehman Bros!!
PatsyT : Oh BDM you have a good dog there!
2ndClassCitizenPun : Mom, give the dog a treat for me.
BigDogMom : Be right back, dog is attacking our “Lehman Bros” neighbor that he hates..
choicelady : 2CCP – you cannot “invest in your workplace” as a matter of desire if you do NOT both OWN a significant share in the business AND have the right to participate in how the work itself is going to be done. I wouldn’t “invest” in a job where I was a fungible commodity to be used or disposed of either. That’s BS – that’s capitalist mind games. It’s about the same as “be true to your school” crap. Yeah – tell that to kids who are bullied. Same difference.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Right now,if you put food on the table of a 99er, they’d elect *you* President.
BigDogMom : 2CCP-your right, they must be at their wits end, I know I was when I was out of work…funny how quickly I forgot what it was like, that’s sad
AdLib : 2CCP – That’s the point though, who is suffering more than people who are out of work and have no income even from unemployment? Fear needs to be turned into righteous anger.
PatsyT : AdLib, Yes and there is the line out there that the unemployed need not apply to some jobs.
kesmarn : Eventually, when people have nothing left to lose, they fight like people with nothing to lose. Then look out!
BigDogMom : Adlib, but why haven’t they risen up, that’s what I want to know, do they feel so beaten down that they can’t get back up?
2ndClassCitizenPun : Most 99ers are too worried about their homes and feeding themselves at this point.
AdLib : Hey…the 99ers might be a great core “tea party” type group to recruit for activism! Put them together with unions, government workers, parents whose kids attend public schools…that could be quite a movement! Why not make the Repubs afraid of the 99ers after beating on them for so long?
2ndClassCitizenPun : A lot of people do not invest in their workplace, because they see no point, regardless of how their employers treat them.
choicelady : 2CCP – you are talking about the conventional. Unless you’ve been around worker owned and managed business, we’re discussing apples and oranges. Your cynicism is probably correct for people who don’t have any understanding of being PART of a business. But they have no authority, so of course they look out for the money only.
ChrisR266 : Second half’s begun. Smoke break, back in a minute
2ndClassCitizenPun : Choice, I have been to first-day trainign sessions, where people were upset they didn’t get a paycheck as soon as they walk in.
ChrisR266 : Hmnmm. Hate. I can honestly say I’ve not experienced this one, in any way I can recall. I have experienced intense dislike and even repulsion, but not hate.
AdLib : Hey 2CCP!
AdLib : Chris – Excellent points. I might add too that change is intimidating to most and suffering under the familiar is preferable to the unknown under the new. Also, I wonder if people may never be supporting something new as much as condemning something they finally see as bad. Had Bush not destroyed so much of America, a black President named Barack Obama would be highly unlikely.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Quite frankly, I think we need a nanny state. Because a lot of people haven’t outgrown the need for a babysitter.
choicelady : 2CCP – people make lousy decisions when they are there just to put in time and get a paycheck. You need to look further down for the discussion about worker control. When people HAVE authority over their own work and cooperate with others around them, their decisions are MUCH better for themselves and their place of employment. Worker owned and managed businesses are ALWAYS more profitable than any others. And don’t tell me about “the guy who…” there are ALWAYS individuals who screw up. The point is the WHOLE, and that is observably verifiable – people work better when they have authority over that work.
BigDogMom : Ooops, I type fast but also make mistakes, “mainly”
BigDogMom : 2CCP-Hating people, maily the Repuglies
2ndClassCitizenPun : Logging out, then.
kesmarn : Universal Love?
2ndClassCitizenPun : Today, I hate people. What’s the subject?
BigDogMom : Evening 2CCP
ChrisR266 : Evening, 2CCP.
PatsyT : Kes, tell them this pro labor movement needs to be be-partisan in nature.. there a lots of repubs in those protests!
kesmarn : Hey, 2CCP!
BigDogMom : CL-we need to get big money out of the campaigns, we need campaign finance reform, that’s the only way we will have a balanced playing field
kesmarn : Oh, AdLib, I SO wish we could do recalls in Ohio!
ChrisR266 : AdLib: Agreed. Dean has been the one effective leader of the party in 30 years.
AdLib : Kes – I have read several articles quoting teachers and gov workers who voted for their Repub Govs and are now upset. Too bad you can’t do recalls in OH!
2ndClassCitizenPun : “they always do”? You must hang with different people than me
PatsyT : Hey 2CCP!
kesmarn : BDM, good question on the 99ers.
2ndClassCitizenPun : Howdy folks
BigDogMom : Tomorrow night my Rep, Chris Murphy is having a town hall, going to it to see what people are saying, unfortunately it’s in one of the swankier towns
choicelady : BDM – I think we need a new “New Deal” but we need more – we need to end Taft Hartley limits on workers’ ability to vote on corporate policy. We need to improve worker presence in decision making and ownership of where they work. We need to TRUST people who work to make good decisions – they always do. When people are invested in the places they work – public or private – they work hard and are far more productive. We need to shift the issue from just economics to the interior politics of decision making.
AdLib : Cl – I do think the unrest is building and growing, 2012 will be a very contentious year for Repubs and the wealthy supporting them.
kesmarn : c’lady I had a heated debate today with a lefty who was Obama-bashing. You know the type all too well. She was whining that he wasn’t a strong leader. I said: Time for people to grow the hell up and not expect Daddy to do everything for them. I asked her if Roosevelt was on the picket line at the Toledo Auto-Lite factory in the 30’s. No answer.
ChrisR266 : AdLib: You’re welcome, and I do believe this. Our natural state is inertia, and our tendency is presumption–to assume that something different cannot necessarily be better unless we’re presented with overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
BigDogMom : kes, I’m surprised that the 99’ers haven’t risen up yet like in the 30’s, are they so depressed that they won’t, have they given up?
AdLib : Chris – I don’t expect the Dem Party to lead, aside from when Dean was running it, it never really has. They have the tons of money and the resources though to support this movement and they’re just sitting on the sidelines.
choicelady : Chris – I totally agree. We do not have to wait for the party or “leaders” to save us. WE have to save us! As Bob Edgar says – WE ARE THE LEADERS WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR. That is absolutely the ONLY way it has ever worked, no matter what the cause, what the issue, what the movement. It’s up to US, not the party.
PatsyT : You take care Javez, you’ll get the hang of the new computer
ChrisR266 : Sleep well, Javaz. If you just keep clicking that minus sign in the lower right of the box, you’ll get that screen down to where you can manage it.
AdLib : CL and Chris, thanks for the background and historical info. What you both point out is what we saw in 2010 and even see today, unless their facing severe suffering, people will remain apathetic in the face of more suffering.
BigDogMom : CL-I can type fast and have a big mouth…will that work?
kesmarn : G’night, j’avaz!
choicelady : BDM – yes, sound the drum beat daily about fairness to working people and the poor. But also find ways to help local union folks. Don’t have to picket – but you might find other things that will help them.
ChrisR266 : BDM: Yeah, I will. I’m working on something now, so I’ll work it in.
kesmarn : Yes, AdLib, I’m proud of the teachers and firefighters who are out protesting now, but some of them voted for the same Govs who are oppressing them now. What were they thinking? That only “deadbeats” were going to be in the crosshairs?
PatsyT : Javez
BigDogMom : What we need is a “New Deal” again
javaz : I’ve got to keep scrolling up and then down, so I will bid you all a very good night.
choicelady : BDM and ADLib – I don’t think we’re entering the Gilded Age – I think we’ve HAD it. This is now more like the Progressive upsurge of the 1900s against that obscene wealth. Corporate liberals WILL try to coopt it – we need to be mindful of that. Soros will be the leader on that – Buffet, too.
ChrisR266 : Why does everyone expect the “party” to lead here? Can’t people see and decide for themselves that they’ve had it beyond what one party or another tells them to think about their present existence?
BigDogMom : Chris can you post that, I’ll forget the name of it before the night is out
AdLib : Kes – I am so with you on that, why do people have to be so short sighted? They plan for so many things, their kids’ educations, retirement, etc. but when it comes to the country they live in, they make decisions about voting like they do in a McDonalalds, “Hmm…what do I feel like having today?”
javaz : This is just too hard for me to do!
kesmarn : Chris, that sounds so interesting.
javaz : Patsy! I so love you! And miss you more than you’ll ever know!
BigDogMom : Should we start writing to our Congress people and Senators?
choicelady : AdLib – that has always been true. When you’re on the edge, and you’re terrified of losing what little you have, you tend to be conservative in the face of corporate power. The corporate liberals in 1901 got that they’d be more secure if workers were. They started paying better, doing Worker’s Comp, and improving corporate welfare or even adopt modest union presence, all to prevent Debs from gaining power and having workers continue the bloody uprisings that existed from the 1870s on. There were over 80,000 violent strikes between the 1870s and 1920s. Most people though, did nothing. Until they HAD NO CHOICE.
ChrisR266 : If you all haven’t seen it, you might want to check out the documentary “faces of the enemy” from your local library, if they have it. Made by Sam Keen in 1986, it looks at the rhetoric of enemy making historically and strategically at meta levels. I remember one striking quotation from the video from a Russian political scholar. He says at one point, when people just cannot stand the conditions of their existence any longer, they act to change those conditions. They rise up, in ways the status quo never anticipated.
PatsyT : Kes! Yes no sh*t! look at all they have achived with peace! and same with Wisconsin!
kesmarn : The Dem Party needs to be much stronger on supporting workers.
BigDogMom : Adlib, that’t what I want to know, where the hell are they…
kesmarn : Patsy, I think WE are also learning from other nations. I learned a lot from Egypt a month ago!
PatsyT : Javez, one of my sisters was an officer in the coast guard and she tells the same tales
AdLib : Why hasn’t the Dem Party made this their central message? Where the hell are they under Tim Kaine? When Howard Dean was running the DNC, he was all over the place. The DNC was sold out to the DLCers, the corporatist Dems who are fine with the way things are and the way they’re going. We really need to look to each other and build a populist movement to change things.
BigDogMom : Adlib, I hope so, because we are entering another “Gilded Age” of the Robber Barons
kesmarn : AdLib, the other thing that bothers me is when people react only, finally, after they personally are affected. Why not vote when the poorest of the poor are first hit? You know you’re turn will come if “they” aren’t stopped.
javaz : That PBS thing about the women who were engineers meant a lot to me, because I worked with so many men that always told me that I couldn’t do the job because I am a woman
choicelady : PAtsy – I think workers in other nations are indeed finding US support via unions. There is a LOT of awareness of how desperately they are abused. The ILO needs to be vastly strengthened, but US unions are truly mindful about NOT bashing these people. They are working on FAIR trade policies that include honorable working conditions and remuneration. Won’t happen overnight, but it IS happening.
BigDogMom : Patsy, they have had a fire like the Triangle factory in India in 2009, they are saying that they may start an uprising and unions over there…got the info from a friend
AdLib : CL – Indeed, I’ve said before that unfortunately, the American People as a whole won’t fight for themselves until they’ve achieved an extreme level of suffering. And that suffering is being delivered by GOP-Express. Why couldn’t Americans vote for their best interests last year? Why couldn’t they remember the cruelty and destruction of the GOP from just two years ago? Because, they are like children and only react to what’s happening right now. No vision, no long term planning. Just reactive voting. And, once they’re suffering enough under the thumbs of the wealthy, they will react against that too.
ChrisR266 : BDM: Exactly. One of these is also a strong voter base for the GOP in Ohio. Would be cutting off their nose to spite their faces if they stymied them.
javaz : Does anyone here watch PBS? They had a documentary about the Secret Rosies, and they were women that were the first computers
PatsyT : CL, I wonder if any of this workers rights uprising will make it to the workers in China and the other countries?
kesmarn : Exactly, BDM. The working poor might (!) vote Dem, and the elderly would vote to protect SS.
choicelady : O’Donnell supported Terri Schiavo’s FAMILY? Well, even good guys make mistakes.
BigDogMom : Thinking of volunteering with the ACCE here in Bridgeport to get the vote out
ChrisR266 : BDM: I agree, especially when it comes to the more wealthy districts.
choicelady : AdLib – people across the country ARE protesting – it’s just not reaching MSM. I get union stuff, welfare rights stuff, ACCE (successor to ACORN0 and it’s almost every day somewhere in our nation. We need, more than anything, some INFORMATION.
PatsyT : HBO had a good special on the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire last week and this is a link to the American Experience version «link»
BigDogMom : Chris-the voter ID thing really worries me, they are targeting two major voter groups, working poor and the elderly who don’t drive
kesmarn : Chris, I hope you’re right. There’s some pretty serious opposition to Kasich’s plan to open state parks to oil and gas drilling, too. It may not be a cakewalk for him.
javaz : This is not what it used to be, but Patsy, when it comes to O’Donnel, he turned me off when he supported the Shiavo story.
ChrisR266 : Bito: Yes, they have.
choicelady : OK all – we WILL see some hard times ahead, but these are movement issues. We all have to keep it alive. The movement does NOT start (as my friends are trying to do) from the top, from “experts”, from even intellectuals. It starts with real people standing for themselves. We can help move that, but we also have to step between them and the “progressive” know it alls.
ChrisR266 : Kes: agreed. But he is going to get held up on a few things–even the Dispatch came out today against the move to change voter verification to “state verified picture ID.” Husted is hesitating on this one, too. The gears are beginning to slow down. We might shut this man down yet.
BigDogMom : CL-posted the links to two HBO specials on the Triangle Fire, boomer linked a PBS one
bito : Have the WI, MI and OHIO R’s overreached?
AdLib : Chris – This is a huge push by the corps and the wealthy to lock in their plutocracy, they don’t want to take a chance that Obama is re-elected and there’s a backlash against Repubs in 2012 so they’re going for the whole burrito now. Cement in the inequity, tax cuts for them and smother government services for the masses. WHy people aren’t protesting across the country at this outrageous plot that’s being implimented nationally is a bit bewildering but at least many people are standing up.
kesmarn : I haven’t seen this much pro-union spirit around here in a while.
BigDogMom : We need to change the message so the “experts” start following what the people really want and NEED
kesmarn : Chris, Ohio is going downhill fast. He’s moving with lightning speed to privatize everything and slash and burn all social welfare programs.
choicelady : Hey everyone – today is the 100th anniversary of the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire. This is a MAJOR moment in OUR history, too – the year we began taking back our country for REAL PEOPLE so Triangle NEVER happens again! Noteworthy – both the GE tax dodge AND the anniversary got major play on NPR. They finally found a backbone.
BigDogMom : Chris-I think in a year when the schools are struggling, then you are going to see more people rising up, especially in the better neighborhoods
AdLib : CL – So true! Look how well the experts fared for Americans in Obama’s first two years! They helped in trying to kill HCR and just about every other initiative that they tried to say couldn’t pass. Experts my ass!
kesmarn : I love Duluth, c’lady. Would move there if I could.
PatsyT : Hey Did anyone catch Lawence O tonight he got on the GE case and my hubby and I both said … hmmm I wonder if he will have a job next week?
choicelady : BDM – WI and the other states, the movement of real people over real issues – that is transforming.
ChrisR266 : AdLib: The Columbus Dispatch published a story today about the losses the schools in Central Ohio will sustain over the next two years with the Kasich budget cuts–some of the richest districts are going to experience a loss of 40-50% of state funding. But the industries here, especially energy, pay no taxes on revenues at all. Plus, Kasich cut tax rates to encourage :”growth. Something sucks in O-H…
choicelady : kes – it’s a bit rough around the edges, but come down the main drag from the iron range, and the view of the harbor is beyond gorgeous. It’s a cool little city. Well, OK – it’s a COLD little city.
kesmarn : I guess that would be “tweating”? No…too close to sweating…?
BigDogMom : kes, LOL! Tweeting and eating!
choicelady : AdLib – a corollary to this discussion: beware of the experts who “message” with polls and focus groups supposedly for “progressives” . They are NOT progressive and tend to skew questions to get mainstream, Blue Dog answers. I jumped all over the continued use of the “experts” that sell us down the river on every issue with lousy research and faulty messages.
kesmarn : We do a huge amount of tweeting AND eating in Ohio, Patsy. And it shows.
AdLib : Bito – You are a Twitter Guru! I bow to your Tweeting! BTW, I did contribute to Al and I met him once so we’re ol’ buddies . Seriously, great job Bito, you’re making our Twitter account happen!
PatsyT : HA, Kes Its that Ohio connection !
kesmarn : I have cousins in Duluth, c’lady. And they are wonderful!
BigDogMom : How much more will people stand, do people believe that there is nothing they can do about it or has WI changed their minds..hubby has just about given up
kesmarn : Patsy! I was in the process of typing: you are what you tweet!!
choicelady : kes – Al wouldn’t turn ANY of us in! He’s a mensch. And he’s from DULUTH, one of my fave cities.
javaz : Big HUGS to BITO! hey, do you remember me?
AdLib : CL – I think that if Progressives focused like a laser on fairness, the public would be greatly swayed into joining the anti-corporate movement. Put all the corporations that made billions, took TARP and pay no taxes on one side of the page and all the cuts made to services for the public…along with how we’re subsidizing them with our taxes…and I think people will be pissed. The social cuts hurt most everyone.
PatsyT : Bito, you are what you tweet
KQuark : Exactly CL
kesmarn : Don’t worry, b’ito, Al won’t turn you in to the HUAC 2.0
choicelady : hey bito – great to see you!
javaz : BITO!
choicelady : javaz – the “flat tax” SEEMS fair until you point out to people that it eats disposable income for us (10% of $40K) vs. the rich (10% of $400K) It’s the best argument against it – it continues to give the rich lots of luxuries while it eats our necessities.
bito : Guess I better watch what I tweet!
javaz : Wasn’t Walsh the head of GE, Adlib? And wasn’t Walsh the CEO who made it A-OKAY to outsource?
ChrisR266 : Adlib: Indeed. It is a “party down” topic.
kesmarn : SERIOUSLY, B’ITO? Al Franken is following us??
PatsyT : Hey Bito !!
BigDogMom : Bito, your kidding, Sen Frankin!!!!
AdLib : BITO! Hey-hey!
kesmarn : Hey, AdLib! And everyone that I have yet to “Hey”! Just kinda leapt right into the fray without the niceties, there…
choicelady : AdLib – I was in a meeting Wed. with progressives, Some said the issue of “fairness” did NOT resonate with people. I disagree. I think MOST people think things should be fair – the level playing field, equal rules, etc. Does anyone think that’s NOT a core value upon which we can build? I think when people pay MORE individually than giant corporations do they GET this issue.
bito : I just got a little giddy, I was following the PlanetPOV Twitter account and we just got a US Senator following the site. Senator Frankin–Cool!
javaz : oh yes, CL, and worse they are trying to pass a flat tax, which favors the rich and increases taxes on us all, but worse, makes those who are poverty line and below pay $312 dollars of money that they do not have, while cutting taxes for the corporations and rich
AdLib : Chris – Or maybe just, “Exxx-celent!”
BigDogMom : Adlib, who knows, it depends on how short our memories are
ChrisR266 : AdLib: Bwaaaahahaha! There’s a topic for ya!
AdLib : And Kes is in da house!
AdLib : Hey BDM!
AdLib : Hey KQ!
kesmarn : c’lady, we were all wondering last week if the Govs in all those states were on a sort of suicide mission. Rape and pillage. Don’t even PLAN to get re-elected and then bail out. And Hi, KQ!!
PatsyT : Javez, there will be no stopping you now… you go girl!
KQuark : Everyone see where VT passed single payer at least in house if I recal
AdLib : NOW FOR OUR FIRST TOPIC. IT WAS ANNOUNCED TODAY THAT GE AND ITS CEO PAID $0 IN US TAXES ON $5.1 BILLION IN PROFITS. EXXON HAS PAID $0 IN US TAXES ON NEARLY $30 BILLION IN PROFITS. YET, MONEY FOR SCHOOLS, MEDICARE, POLICE, YOU NAME IT IS BEING CUT IN MOST STATES FOR THE 99% OF AMERICANS WHO DON’T GET TO PAY ZERO ON THEIR INCOME. IS THIS CLASS WARFARE AGAINST AMERICANS BY THE WEALTHY AND CORPORATIONS FINALLY REACHING A BIG PUSH BACK AS WE’RE SEEING IN WI AND OTHER STATES? OR WILL AMERICANS JUST COMPLAIN BUT STILL VOTE IN CORPORATIST REPUBLICANS IN 2012 FOR SUPERFICIAL REASONS?
BigDogMom : Hey KQ
choicelady : KQ – hi to you! How are you tonight?
PatsyT : Hey KQ!
BigDogMom : Javaz, it must have opened up a whole new world for you, I know it did for me once I got cable
KQuark : Heloooo
kesmarn : Oh and especially WI, BDM. Yes all of them.
choicelady : kes – I think OH, MI, WI, IA, IN, and NJ will be major turning points. I know people don’t act until their own ox is gored, but these GOP buffoons were stupid enough to gore ALL the middle class at once. Never a good move.
javaz : Bigdog mom – we are loving the Hi-Speed and the youtubes
BigDogMom : AX, OH, MI, ME, IN, NJ…they are all going down that road
kesmarn : Ohio is going down the same road as AZ, j’avaz. Maybe if we gain some speed we’ll mow Brewer down…?
choicelady : javaz – any more people dying because AZ can’t afford transplants? Do those people have NO souls? Wait. Why am I even ASKING…
javaz : how are you?
ChrisR266 : Choice: I agree, there’s something magical about NM. It was my first time away from the home land, and I shall never forget it. I learned so much.
BigDogMom : Java has a new computer…she’ s going big time with the vids…you go girl!
javaz : Crazy, k’es
choicelady : BDM – I know CArharts outdoor wear (great for climbing around rusting steel mills) but NOT their sweatshirts. I would HAVE to agree on the yoga pants. Perfecto.
kesmarn : Hey, j’avaz! How’re things in AZ these days?
BigDogMom : I’m Comfy too, hubby’s big Carhart sweatshirt and yoga pants, I think the yoga pants makes the outfit!
choicelady : kes – total agreement on KD’s version. Magnificent. She has one of the best voices of all time.
kesmarn : KD Lang does a stunning version of Halleluia.
javaz : It’s awesome but it is working backwards. and scrollng – never mind me – but yikes!
choicelady : kes – well ALL of us might prefer invisibility any night! I for one look like a bag lady tonight. But I’m comfy!
kesmarn : Oh, BDM, you will love Eriksen. He is wonderful. I’ll be so glad to have a fellow afficionado (sp?) ’cause he’s sorta undiscovered.
choicelady : Oh BDM – there is NOTHING better than KD’s version of Hallelujah! Exquisite! Wow – can she sing!
choicelady : Hey KQ – where you be? Join the fray!
BigDogMom : Put up KD Lang’s Hallejuha (sp?)
kesmarn : c’lady you should be very grateful for my invisibility tonight.
BigDogMom : The Eriksen
kesmarn : Which one, BDM? The Eriksen or the Poppycock?
choicelady : Hey BDM!!! Welcome!
PatsyT : Ohhh Kes! Love it!!
choicelady : kes – you did not have to tell us. We respect your invisibility.
BigDogMom : Hey Kes, loved the video you put up, went looking for more of his work
kesmarn : Hey Patsy, there’s a Prince Poppycock vid on the Fri music thread waiting for you.
choicelady : AdLib – never drank tangential juice – sounds cool. Can you get it at Trader Joe’s?
PatsyT : Hey BDM! Hey Kes!
AdLib : CL – I especially like tangential juice.
BigDogMom : Hubsters is watching the game(s)
choicelady : Chris – I love NM but could never live there. It’s eerie. The landscape AND the history just befuddle me with their mystical qualities. It kind of scares me it’s so awesome and so NOT a part of my experience!
ChrisR266 : BDM: sheesh! there’s basketball to be watched! Music? shumisic…
kesmarn : c’lady, you caught me! I was slipping into something more comfortable while my name hung up there on the chandelier.
BigDogMom : Sorry I’m late, was listening to music
choicelady : Oh! Oh! I was good at tangents in High School! Part of the only math I understood!!! Trig I think, right?
javaz : Well, I’m just too stupid when it comes to computers to figure it out, but HELLO! And I have missed you all very much.
ChrisR266 : Choice: the Husband and I both did our Master’s degrees in New Mexico, and it was while there that I began to understand the glory of four seasons. I just never got used to the lack of clear changes, grass that never looked like real green, and snow that just didn’t stick around.
AdLib : I’m prepping our first topic…it’s tangential to last week’s…
AdLib : javaz – Yes, kind of. You can resize the box to make it fit on your screen better, so you can see comments and the box to enter your comments. It helps a great deal to have them all visible at the same time.
choicelady : Hey kes and KQ – we seeeee you in the loft headers. Welcome!
choicelady : Chris – it doesn’t snow much here, but it does get freaking COLD (not like there but cold anyway), and Spring is still “meaningful” but just too fast, too short. The sense of “turning” is abbreviated. Everything comes at once. This IS California – land of instant gratification!
AdLib : Javaz – Heh! WHat I meant is, this big box in which mu and everyone’s comments appear…at the bottom right are a plus sign and a minus sign, you can click those to customize how big that box of comments is, to make it bigger or smaller. That can help if you’re having trouble seeing the comments the box for you to write your comments in.
javaz : I’m starting to get it – it’s split screen?
PatsyT : Javez, did you get a lap top?
javaz : Damn, I’ll just sit here and try to follow
ChrisR266 : I love that!
ChrisR266 : Snowdrops just started blooming yesterday. Crocuses are up, some buttercups are opening, and it is inevitable here now.
choicelady : javaz – we can read you. Can’t you read us? You SEEM to be doing fine!
javaz : Adlib, I have no idea what you are telling me to do! LMFAO
AdLib : javaz, the key to Vox Populi is not to worry if you miss anything, you can always scroll down to read it. Just take your time to respond to whatever comment you wish, all comments appear in line, no matter who they’re replying to.
choicelady : Chris – sounds GREAT. I love the snowbells to crocus to forsythia march toward Spring. I do miss it.
javaz : Patsy! I am having a hard time doing 3 things at once! I this still on the front page?
ChrisR266 : Choice: most years we don’t get to enjoy it–a frost or some other malady ruins the buds. This year, we’re getting the bloom even before the grass greens. It is lovely.
choicelady : Well I’m much more inclined to root for OH anyway. I at least feel your draw to the game!
AdLib : Javaz, you can adjust the size of the display box by clicking the “+” or “-” at the bottom right corner under the display box.
ChrisR266 : I suppose Adonai is watching the game and avoiding us–he knows I’d be here, LOL.
PatsyT : Hey Javez, how is the new comp?
choicelady : AdLib – yeah, I know. It’s why I don’t live there anymore.
javaz : I do not know how to do this anymore, whereby I see what I type and anyone responds
choicelady : Chris – I miss forsythia. There are a few around here, but it’s not the same. We get Spring all at once – none of that cool phasing in that prolongs it all. We pretty much go from winter to summer with just a glancing blow to spring and fall.
AdLib : CL – It is L.A., that’s what they’d save first here.
ChrisR266 : Forsythia has been blooming in Ohio here for the last few days, so we’re due for our last snows this weekend. It’s cold here, but light until 7:30 ish in the evening–nice.
choicelady : Hi javaz – we see you in the loft. Hello guest – come on down!
AdLib : Hey javaz!
choicelady : AdLib – they left the unicorns off the first and the best they can do is REALITY shows on these? Shows how standards have fallen.
AdLib : Patsy – “vh” displays the HD version of a video if there is one, “v” shows standard res.
javaz : Hi to all!
AdLib : At least the rain has subsided here in Cali. They were building arks and putting two of each reality show on them.
choicelady : Chris – OK – I DID get it. My ex is in Ohio, so I do know the acronym ZIP stuff.
PatsyT : Ok I am confused sometime back KQ told me to put “vh” after the http but you can put a “v”?
ChrisR266 : Oh, ok Choice: O-H usually leads to an I-O (we Ohio State fans are terribly arrogant, ethnocentric and self absorbed). The Basketball team is playing Kentucky right now for a spot in the NCAA Elite Eight on Sunday.
choicelady : Chris – OH as in Ohio? Sorry I’m dim.
choicelady : Excuse me all – I’m having a sneezing fit. How it can rain AND we still have pollen eludes me. I appear to be allergic to camellias in The City of Camellias. Shoulda checked that out before I arrived.
AdLib : Oh…OH!
AdLib : Hey Patsy! Just was leaving a head’s up on the Music thread.
choicelady : Sigh, Chris. Still don’t understand…
ChrisR266 : Choice: I should have written O-H…
choicelady : Chris – what game? We who are sports challenged don’t know.
ChrisR266 : hope everyone is well. You’ll have to put up with me while I’m watching the game.
choicelady : Patsy – it’s stopped for the moment. Good thing. I think I’m growing moss. On ME!
PatsyT : Hey Chris, AdLib, and CL … Hey Choice how is the rain up there?
choicelady : Hey Patsy – I see you lurking up there in the loft!
AdLib : Hey CL and Chris! Welcome!
choicelady : Chris: OH?
ChrisR266 : Hello all. OH-!
choicelady : “Hi when I arrive” or isn’t that what you meant?
AdLib : Welcome to tonight’s edition of Vox Populi! Don’t forget to say “hi” when you arrive!