choicelady : Bito – get well soon!!!
kesmarn : Good night, c’lady! So glad you were here tonight!
AdLib : Night CL!
choicelady : G’night everyone – I am up early so off to sleep now. Sweet dreams!
AdLib : CL – I’m happy to do what I can here at The Planet.
PatsyT : Bito !
AdLib : The crowd cheers, “BITO GET BETTER FAST!”
choicelady : AdLib – we’re workin’ on it – have a special mailer coming out for our members, and it works its way out to 6.5 million Protestants. Not shabby.
kesmarn : A bit O/T but, b’ito, if you’re still here: wishing you all the best and a speedy recovery.
AdLib : See you there Patsy!
PatsyT : I catch you guy at the afterchat
AdLib : Looks like it’s time to end tonight’s edition of Vox Populi. Thank you so much for another amazing edition. We can continue the conversation at the related article, click the following link to go there: «link»
AdLib : So, it’s more straight up lies. We have to get the truth out there!
choicelady : The anti-15 argument is that it is “tax money’ which it is NOT and that anyone (gasp) can use the pool of money, which is not true. There are qualifying standards for candidates. But it’s all “don’t let politicians use YOUR tax money for campaigns” when, in fact, it’s MY fees for being a lobbyist, not taxes.
AdLib : CL – what’s the argument against Prop 15? Money is free speech crap?
choicelady : AdLib – I do agree, and I do have allies who’d agree. Let’s talk. You have my email!
kesmarn : CL, that’s a great proposition!
kesmarn : Which does not mean I date from the Middle Ages, though, Patsy!
choicelady : Patsy – Prop 15 will be the “clean money” election for Secretary of State (pilot project). The pool of public money will come from a $700 fee on lobbyists every two years. We now pay $25. Needless to say, we lobbyists who support this measure aren’t very popular. There are SIX of us. Period. I think that should be a selling point myself. But it’s a great test of public campaign finance. Vote Yes on 15 and see if we can reclaim democracy from the corporate big boys!
PatsyT : Oooo kes even more cool !!
AdLib : CL – It’s getting about that time to end tonight’s edition of Vox Populi but I would be interested in continuing our conversation on this. Where things are in our society today and with the strength of the internet and blogs today, I think there could be a strong coalition for a Corporate Responsibility proposition.
kesmarn : Patsy, thanks. That is the window in the cathedral I was baptized in.
PatsyT : kes you avi is cool what is that from ?
choicelady : AdLib – back in 2004 we did get HALF of the signatures for Prop. 56 (to remove the supermajority requirement for budget and tax increases) that came close. Getting that many signatures with volunteers was unheard of. However, we were in collaboration with several other groups. I think we could do it again – but it’s HUGE work and would have to be fixed on one really big, worthwhile issue. Like removing the two-thirds vote on ballot and……..Let’ s think about it. We have allies now (Lako
kesmarn : It’s too bad the default avatars look like Fisher-Price Little People.
PatsyT : Is prop 15 the taxpayers right to vote?
AdLib : Cl – Google “PlanetPOV” alone, with your user name or with the name of any topic and see what happens…
PatsyT : CL you need a cool Avi !
AdLib : CL – I remember your saying that you were supporting Prop 15, a huge thanks! My thought is that with various organizations involved, volunteers could be maximized to minimize paying for petition signers.
kesmarn : Meant “my” not “by.” Typing worse than usual tonight.
choicelady : AdLib – cool! That’s impressive! Well heck, if we’re going to be Google famous, I’m gonna HAVE to get an avatar. Mine makes me look like a chess pawn. Or a muppet.
kesmarn : I googled by moniker once and found all sorts of more or less intelligent comments by me. Mostly less.
AdLib : Google and other search engines “crawl” sites so to put them in their search engines. Even if it makes you itch, it’s exactly what we want, people being able to find our articles when they search google.
kesmarn : AdLib explained it once, but I was deep in the fogs of fatigue and I forgot…
PatsyT : I though that was my dog
choicelady : kes – what does that mean, crawling the site. I’m starting also to itch.
kesmarn : Attention: Google is crawling the site. I wondered what was on my leg.
choicelady : AdLib – oh sure – we have co-sponsored several iniatives, but we are NOT the money folks! (We bring respectability to the game, y’know.) We are on the YES ballot arguments for Prop. 15, in case anyone is interested, for the first “clean money” campaign. Since the pool of money comes from tagging lobbyists (me included) and we support that despite being poor, I think this prop. might just pass. Everyone HATES lobbyists. Except those of us in the non-profit world, of course.
AdLib : So CL, would your group ever be interested in pursuing something like that?
choicelady : AdLib – yeah, I think I took two spoons of Rasmussen; made me gag. Just as you would expectorate.
kesmarn : No, that’s Rasspitting, and I think that would be given to tea baggers, AdLib.
PatsyT : CL if I remember anything more significant I let you know.I am glad you have confirmed that if its late and they will not tell you who what when and where – hang up
choicelady : AdLib – the hard part about initiatives is getting the signatures. Most need 675,000, and conservatively you need $1 million to get paid gatherers as well as volunteers to get that done. Really sucks. Someone is looking into online signature gathering, but I think that’s dangerous. We also can’t stop using paid people since it’s part of that ‘money is free speech’ thingy. So it’s not easy. Best way – team up with other groups with the same goals. Especially ones with deep pockets.
AdLib : Isn’t Rasmussen the stuff you swallow when you have mucus?
choicelady : Patsy – none of that is clear. They really ought to be more upfront. Is this trying to get some ballot support? There is nothing on the June ballot about that. Thank GOD.
kesmarn : Patsy…same level of integrity. And just as hard to kill.
PatsyT : Rasmussen sounds like Rasputin !
AdLib : CL – Seriously, how impossible is it for grass roots people to put together and qualify a proposition in CA?
PatsyT : CL the guy keep saying there was a recent CA legesilation that is be considered for repel that would make corporations able to put off paying their taxes to other years…
kesmarn : CL…yes they seem to always hear it as “in the gritty.”
choicelady : Ad – those are all reasonable, RW, teabag goals. You’ve obviously got this well thought out.
AdLib : “Press one if you would like me to stand for my own principles. Press two if you would like me to do as others tell me to. Press three if you’d like me to say ‘no’ more. Press four if you’d like me to yell, “Doofus” at The President in his next State of the Union Speech.
kesmarn : Patsy, was it Rasmussen? Fux LOVES them!
choicelady : kes – what is this word you speak. Integrity. Don’t think we hear that in the political arena. You need to define, please!
choicelady : Patsy – do you know for what?
PatsyT : CL It was a total sham poll…
choicelady : AdLib – does this mean you’re willing to be all things to all people (secretly, behind everyone else’s back, of course)?
kesmarn : Hmmmmmm. There doesn’t seem to be a touchtone button option for “integrity” here….
AdLib : “Thank you for calling MaverickPhone. Please say the character trait you would like me to have or use your touchtone phone!”
choicelady : Patsy – the kid is probably having a breakdown. He found a smart voter! Yikes – who forgot to cull you out?
kesmarn : That’s a mavericky-kinda campaign finance reform!
AdLib : CL – That bill is disgusting…and what’s even more disgusting is that a majority of Dems had to have approved it.
PatsyT : I just kept stating that prop 13 has ruined the state and you should be working on that young man!
choicelady : AdLib – you have found the absolute keys to success! Either way you win. Cool.
AdLib : Actually, my Maverickosity is generated in direct proportion to my campaign contributions. “To make me more Mavericky, press 1 and donate, to make me less Mavericky, press 2 and donate.”
choicelady : Patsy – HAH! Bet you ruined their day! You are the kind of smart person they hate! Good for you!
PatsyT : CL I was the one asking questions!
choicelady : Patsy – oooooo yes. That is SO against the law!
choicelady : AdLib – LOL!!!!
choicelady : AdLib – last year, in the middle of the worst year ever, the entire legislature gave a tax break of $2.5 BILLION per year to transnational corporations, not even located in CA. The person pushing it? DEM Assembly member, Fiona Ma from San Francisco. Never say never.
kesmarn : You operate on the Maverick-O-Meter , then?
PatsyT : CL yes and they called at 9;30 my hubby said that is against the law
AdLib : CL – My maverickdom is directly tied to my poll numbers. Polls go down, so does my maverickdom…or as my detractors call it, MaverickDumb.
choicelady : PAtsy – no matter who it was, if they were not disclosing clearly, they are breaking the law. So non compliance is cool. VERY cool.
PatsyT : A maver ricky
AdLib : CL – That can’t possibly pass, that would be a vote for handing the proposition process to corps.
choicelady : ADLib – must mean you’re a mavericky kind of non-mavericky maverick. Or something.
choicelady : AdLib – fine, but the newest wrinkle is some doofus in the Assembly wants to raise the filing fee from $200 to $2000 in the “interests of democracy”. Just saw that today. WILL be sending a nasty letter.
kesmarn : Next AdLib will be saying that CEOs should abide by ethical standards. We always knew he was a commie.
PatsyT : I got a call last night from a poll whatta pain they would not tell me what law they were refering to- I was not very compliant
AdLib : CL – I’m a maverick. But at the same time, I’ve never thought of myself as a maverick.
choicelady : AdLib – Outlawing outlaws? Now you’re getting RADICAL!
kesmarn : Patsy, great minds.
AdLib : On the CA state ballot, I mean.
AdLib : Why can’t we get a proposition on the ballot holding CEOs responsible when they commit crimes?
PatsyT : Kes JINKX !!
choicelady : AdLib – yes, that, too! As if some of their honeys don’t have low enough bottoms. Remember that woman who said to McCain that Obama was a Muslim. That woman had some Low Bottom on her.
kesmarn : Criminalising crime! Whatta concept. Seems that while corps are people, CEOs are not…they are superior beings above the law!
AdLib : CL – I’m also for outlawing outlaws!
PatsyT : Crime that does not pay – What a concept !
AdLib : CL – Or they think it is liposuction that will give them a “low bottom”.
choicelady : AdLib – criminalize crime? You romantic, you!
AdLib : Patsy – The way you tell the difference between lobotomized teabaggers and non lobotomized? The way they part their hair.
choicelady : Oh AdLib, the only reason the Teabag guys cash those in is they think a lobotomy has something to do with Big Breasts.
AdLib : Kes and CL – Yes, this is what I’m for, passing laws that criminalize crime. Even for CEOs. Silly, isn’t it?
kesmarn : AdLib, with teabaggers and lobotomies, though, how do you tell the “befores” from the “afters”?
PatsyT : AdLib I thought most TP’ers come pre-lobomized
choicelady : Patsy – he was tried and executed by the Chinese government. That’s a bit over the top for even me! But it does set an interesting precedent about culpability.
AdLib : I hear that when you join the Tea Party, you get a 2 for 1 coupon for “Dr. Buddy’s House of Lobotomies”.
kesmarn : Yes, AdLib, those hearings are great theater, but people would REALLY love it if the congress would put some teeth into enforcement and stand up to these guys!
Blues Tiger : Here is a water link «link»
choicelady : AdLib – I agree that criminal liability must re-enter these discussions. Kes – Angelides was NEVER better! He was an outstanding Treasurer and a lousy candidate for Governor, but he’s smart AND has moxie. I wish he’d won.
kesmarn : Patsy, yes, why is it always the wrong people who get lobotomized?
AdLib : Kes – The bewildering thing is that if pols would step up to confront the corps and CEOS and pass laws to restrict their criminal behavior, they’d have more support for re-election then all the corps could buy.
PatsyT : Did n’t that company head in China kill himself over the lead toy stuff or was it the bad pet food?
choicelady : kes – we’re doing our best! If we don’t act now, then when will we? I am finally seeing cojones in our legislature, so I’m right there with this. I’ve been a firm believer in criminal indictments for management since the 1970s. It’s way overdue. And I believe corporations MUST be held accountable for all tax breaks (I’d go much further) or give them back. We haunt the welfare mom getting $684 per month and let the corporations get $2.5 BILLION and don’t bat an eye. Enough!
kesmarn : I love the way (I think it was) Angelides went after the Citibank execs in the hearing: “You can’t have it both ways. You were either pulling the levers or asleep at the switch!”
AdLib : CL – Since corps are granted existence by states, what about propositions in states to hold principles responsible for criminal actions of their corp?
kesmarn : CL, you are the woman! Go get ’em!
PatsyT : kes one flew over the cookoo s nest
choicelady : kes – yes! Go for the “brains”. (I imagine they have the equivalent of gonads, just have not figured out where…)
choicelady : Thanks, kes! I will keep you up to date as we move on water. Actually it’s the Unitarians who lead this one – I’m focusing on establishing “claw backs” on corporations that take money to create jobs then don’t. We are working on bills to make corporations accountable for every dime they get in tax breaks – and give it back if they fail to deliver.
Blues Tiger : Isn’t the problem we prosecute the Company and the individuals who make the decisions aren’t effected by Jail Time
AdLib : CL – I agree that decision makers in Corps should be held responsible. And, when a Corp crime has been committed, Corps should be restricted from moving assets so they could be liquidated if found guilty.
kesmarn : I see, CL! They can “off” themselves and still live on to sin another day, in other words. So we need to lobotomize ’em and go for the brains, then?
choicelady : kes – problem with fines, and with corporations as fictious persons, is that they just change their name, re-incorporate, and the original entity is dissolved with no payoff. It happened with all the asbestos settlements. Fictitious corporations have MORE capacity to elude the law than flesh and blood persons. That’s why we need to go after the ‘brains’ – the people who cannot run away.
AdLib : Patsy – You would still have civil courts to allocate the adjudicated sums to victims, any left over should go to some social program…to help the society that was injured.
kesmarn : c’lady, very encouraging to hear that you guys are taking on the next big battle. You did a great job on health care! You kept hope alive here when we thought it was dead!
choicelady : Patsy – yes, and I think that is being raised. However, corporations’ “brains” are the managers, and I think there needs to be serious consideration of their culpability in criminal ways. We’ve tried it before, but I think this case is much stronger than others.
AdLib : javaz – We’re discussing huge breakthroughs in energy and potable water. That’s quite positive to me.
PatsyT : AdLib and CL take the profit and divide up between the victims
PatsyT : Javez tomorrow is another day…
AdLib : CL – So why not a law that “kills” a corporation for capital crimes, terminates it?
choicelady : kes – that IS the next big fight. The idea that you can own the water was part of the range wars of the 1880s. I think there is law on this, but we seem to have overlooked it. Several of us are monitoring this VERY carefully in Sacto.
kesmarn : j’avaz, hang in there! We’ve been talking about some really hopeful stuff, too, for the future!
kesmarn : CL, maybe instead of the death penalty for corps, extremely large fines will do?
choicelady : BT – I saw that somewhere, too, but forgot which ones. Then, of course, you’re in serious problems with monocropping – look at the elms. This all need care and though and – perhaps – the desire for a balance approach using ALL these options?
PatsyT : CL Massey energy could get the death penalty
AdLib : KQ – Wise words, it does make the most sense to have short, mid and long term energy plans. SHort term, I’ll nominate Bloom Boxes. Long term has to be solar that produces exponentially more energy that currently. Not sure what midterm might be.
Blues Tiger : Kes several Biggies like Goldman Sacs and even Al Gore are investing into water
javaz : good night all – and the news and this here at the Planet – it all depresses me more than I can take – life is hard enough – they say that politics isn’t for the weak – I can’t take it anymore – I just can’t take it any of it anymore.
choicelady : SCOTUS declared corporations “people” in 1886. With this last ruling, they got to be engaged in elections, but we’ve done too little to make them accountable as people are accountable. If we’re stuck with this stupid rule for over 100 years, let’s bend it to our best interests. Corporations should be capable of capital crimes and yes, die. (Of course as one opposed to the death penalty, it puts me in a bind, but hey – I can rationalize right along with the rest of ’em.)
KQµårk : Adlib if the CO2 that is produced is pure enough it can be combined with Calcium and used in making paints and paper coatings. I’d just have to see more details. It seems like they are keeping the chemical nature of this particular devise under wraps for now.
kesmarn : The desalinization thing is encouraging because I’m hearing that some mega-corporation s plan to systematically buy up water rights around the world; and then even third world poor folks will have to pay top dollar for water. Next they’ll own air!
Blues Tiger : CL when I find the link it goes to a planting project, they man names 3 trees that suck up the most CO2
choicelady : javaz – you nailed it. I think a seriously patriotic theme would be to call out the assault on our nation by war contractors. We did that in WW I and WW II – we prosecuted those profiteering from production. Once we stopped any form of rationing to support the war, corporations and we as people just were all off the hook of responsibility.
PatsyT : Since Corps are people, they can die, Right?
AdLib : Thanks BT for the link!
KQµårk : I think with energy policy you need a short, medium and long term policy because the technology is just not there for a clean conversion in many of our lifetimes.
AdLib : Researchers from the UCLA Henry Samueli School of Engineering and Applied Science have unveiled a new class of reverse-osmosis membranes for desalination that resist the clogging which typically occurs when seawater, brackish water and waste water are purified. The highly permeable, surface-structur ed membrane can easily be incorporated into today’s commercial production system, the researchers say, and could help to significantly reduce desalination operating costs. Their findings appear in t
javaz : I’ll answer my question – it;s because corporations are people too, and war means HUGE profits for corporations.
choicelady : BT – I do agree that the number of trees would be huge, but it’s worth doing everything we can on that front. More to the point, we need to change our consumption and our foreign and trade policies so we don’t encourage further destruction of the rain forest. That is a horror.
kesmarn : Thanks, BT
KQµårk : javaz again it’s a problem of scale. Most CO2 is absorbed in the diatoms in the ocean now. Some people think the biosphere can absorb more CO2 but so far levels are not flattening off.
AdLib : KQ – Why couldn’t waste removal be like a reverse Sparklets? There’s a small amount to pick up each week, they bring an empty, pick up the full then take the waste to be processed so it can be disposed of?
choicelady : Thanks for the link, BT.
Blues Tiger : Kes I will link up a planting tree site, it will take an incrediable amount of trees
choicelady : Patsy – Repubs have no interest in public education. They want private schools, not mingling with the great masses. They want no comprehensive curriculum so that their kids get elite education, and yours get, well, Voc Ed. We have no sense of the common good so why would we need public ed to provide unity to the nation?
Blues Tiger : «link»
Blues Tiger : Here is desalinization link
PatsyT : CL Look at what they (repub minority in CA ) have done to the schools ? I have sat with teachers who just got their pink slip and cried along with them — heartbreaking
KQµårk : I’m just saying scale up is gonna be a bitch Adlib. It looks neat in a little box but running a major manufacturing plant and getting rid of waste is gonna be a problem.
javaz : Why is it that under Obama and Democratic majority that pundits and GOP folks can speak against our government, and Immadinnerjacket can quote Republicans – which weakens Obama’s standing – why is not considered treason now as it was under Bush Jr?
kesmarn : Here’s the dumb question of the evening, KQ: would planting more trees and plants counterbalance those CO2 emissions?
choicelady : kes – yes. Slugs. Snails are actually kinda cute. Slugs – not so much.
AdLib : KQ – I defer to your expertise on this. So there would be an issue of byproducts but would that not be a lesser issue than the degree of CO2 emissions currently?
choicelady : Patsy T – you are a wise woman.
PatsyT : There IS
kesmarn : Yes, the snail analogy! I like that. Or maybe they would be slugs?
PatsyT : There in not one repub in CA i would EVER trust !
kesmarn : Oops meant “they’re” not “their.”
choicelady : AdLib – I hear Devore is a glutton, so this should work.
kesmarn : I still think their gonna try to pass the Double Down off as working man’s Chicken Cordon Bleu.
AdLib : Kes – Just answered your request. Double Down certificates for all Republicans! And half of the SCOTUS!
choicelady : kes – you mean like we do to snails? Put salt on RW extremists and they’ll dry up? Wow – where’s my shaker?
KQµårk : I understand fully Adlib I put sequestrants in many products and it precipitates or solubilize the CO2 depending on the process. But I’m saying it’s not without some waste byproducts even if it’s not a gaseous emission. Those by products will build up or we could really have clean coal burning.
AdLib : Let’s send some Double Down gift certificates to Chuck Devore and let him Devore himself into a coma.
choicelady : javaz – it has everything to do with people such as The Family who benefit from war but not peace. We used to have tight regulatins on war profiteering, remember? Not anymore. Now it’s considered un-American to restrict greed in our contractors.
kesmarn : Yes, if we can find a way to use salt on right wing extremists, we will have solved every problem in the world just tonight!
PatsyT : Chuck Devore is on my S**t list
AdLib : Kes and Patsy – Very cool, there would be medical applications for desalinization! We could improve all those on high salt diets!
javaz : Why is that we can always find the money to fund the wars, but we cannot find the money for health care or education in our country?
choicelady : I find the creative use of salt here an example of our enormous wit. Kudos to all.
PatsyT : AdLib maybe they can use DeSal for high blood Presure
kesmarn : We can also use it in Normal Saline IVs to keep people alive after their Double Down Bypass Surgery.
choicelady : Patsy – look out though! Chuck Devore is using it to push nukes and LOWER the safety requirements for their construction. Nothing exists that the RW can’t make worse.
Blues Tiger : KQ they think they can make BB work with Solar soon, perhaps when they finally get those 3d cells Georgia Tech devoloped viable for commercial use
AdLib : KQ – From Bloom’s site: Carbon Sequestration: The electrochemical reaction occurring within Bloom Energy systems generates electricity, heat, some H2O, and pure CO2. Traditionally, the most costly aspect of carbon sequestration is separating the CO2 from the other effluents. The pure CO2 emission allows for easy and cost-effective carbon sequestration from the Bloom systems.
AdLib : BT – Did not hear about the desalinization breakthrough, that is cool. AND they could partner with KFC to sell them the salt to put in their Double Downs! It’s win-win!
PatsyT : BT They have to get that desal going
KQµårk : I guess the best way to put it is Bloom Technology is analogous hybrid cars it does help cut CO2 but not eliminate it.
javaz : Do you think we are winning either war? And aren’t there still more troops in Iraq than Afghanistan? What are our troops doing in Iraq? Are they stopping the suicide violence?
kesmarn : BT, that’s good to hear. Good for the planet and people, too.
choicelady : BT – my worry about desalinization is environmental damage to fragile coastline. Not against it – yet – but it begs the CA question of NOT doing decent conservation and reclamation. In 1969 they knew LA needed capture projects for runoff – still waiting….
Blues Tiger : Kes it is very efficiant and much less expensive
AdLib : KQ – From Bloom’s site: Hydrogen Production: Bloom’s technology, with its NASA roots, can be used to generate electricity and hydrogen. Coupled with intermittent renewable resources like solar or wind, Bloom’s future systems will produce and store hydrogen to enable a 24 hour renewable solution and provide a distributed hydrogen fueling infrastructure for hydrogen powered vehicles.
kesmarn : BT, that should be huge. Water’s gonna be the new oil in the future.
PatsyT : Oh AdLib – I have not been to that site in a while ..
Blues Tiger : Have you Cali people heard that UC has been devoloping a new technology for desalinization? It will be a Boom for you guys soon
AdLib : Patsy – What do you mean “get in on it”? They are making ones for home use, we can buy one (with government tax credits to help!) and spread the word when home units are available.
choicelady : javaz – last I looked, it was the war and tax cuts, not health care which should SAVE money.
javaz : What is the most when it comes to the deficit – 2 wars or health care?
KQµårk : Adlib Hydrogen fuel cell technology is the way to go in future. There are some people that say they can generate Hydrogen from water but that’s years off. I’m really familiar from making Hydrogen from Methane and you do realize CO2 is a by product.
kesmarn : Green energy is a huge favorite for Obama. Would have been a really top priority if Bush hadn’t tanked the economy.
Blues Tiger : They Bloom Box is backed by a big wig entrepreneur, the same guy who backed the Sedgeway
PatsyT : AdLib I like it – how can we get in on that ?
choicelady : AdLib – that’s fine, too. Now if we could get them to organize as a “B Corporation” rather than a C Corp. MD has just paved the way for that – corporations legally allowed to do good, not just make money. Hoo hah!
AdLib : This is the kind of thing Obama could do that is visionary. Throw billions behind deploying Bl;oom boxes and then the power industry won’t be able to stop it.
PatsyT : Why do they whine about Socialism when they wonder around Costco and Sam’s Club or Walmart –
kesmarn : No, CL, just your Scottish accent!
choicelady : kes – that was “can’t have that, can we?” Dyslexia of the fingertips…
kesmarn : That’s what the Tea Party bosses tell me!
AdLib : CL – They are a private company that already has corporate clients. That is a much stronger position to fend off the power companies.
choicelady : kes – can’t hae that, can we?
kesmarn : Low electric rates are socialist.
choicelady : AdLib – yeah, just like our health care?
AdLib : BT – Unless the US gov’t steps in to save our nation. But why would we want the government coming between us and our electic bill?
choicelady : AdLib and BT – this issue of control over bloom box production and use is critical. We have a chance to STOP the utilities from gaining monopoly. That seems huge to me.
PatsyT : BT Bingo gotta pay the boss
AdLib : CL – They made a huge splash in February. This is exactly the type of game changer that we need. It does need to prove itself for a while but if it continues successfully, the US should focus resources on setting these up around the nation.
kesmarn : True, KQ. I think they were implying nuclear would be cheaper than coal, though. And–truthfully- -I think it is cheaper to produce, but they kept rates high anyway and pocketed the profits. Why would I be surprised at that though?
Blues Tiger : We will see the Bllom Box when the Utility Giants figure out a way to control it by leasing them to us
choicelady : BT – I’ve seen that before. The issue is control and monopoly – the immediate loss is offset by visions of eternal dominance and gain. Duh.
choicelady : kes -I would not think so!
choicelady : ADLib – this is exciting. Cannot believe I’ve not heard a peep about it. Thank you!
KQµårk : kesmarm cheap is all relative. Europeans have been paying well over $5.00/gal for decades.
choicelady : KQ – I agree. US ignorance is scary.
Blues Tiger : CL they spend 12 billion to get a 8 billion dollar loan
AdLib : and pure CO2. Traditionally, the most costly aspect of carbon sequestration is separating the CO2 from the other effluents. The pure CO2 emission allows for easy and cost-effective carbon sequestration from the Bloom systems.
choicelady : BT – no! you can’t mean it! Lobbyists had influence? That, right there, is a source of ALL our troubles. Except – I’m a lobbyist, too. Just without money…
kesmarn : CL,cheap would not describe my last electric bill!
AdLib : # Hydrogen Production: Bloom’s technology, with its NASA roots, can be used to generate electricity and hydrogen. Coupled with intermittent renewable resources like solar or wind, Bloom’s future systems will produce and store hydrogen to enable a 24 hour renewable solution and provide a distributed hydrogen fueling infrastructure for hydrogen powered vehicles. # Carbon Sequestration: The electrochemical reaction occurring within Bloom Energy systems generates electricity, heat, some H2O, and
KQµårk : It’s a matter of trust too CL. The French trust scientific progress because many of them are well educated. Here everything is just a black box to people because society as a whole is not that well educated.
javaz : What does anyone think of another movement besides GROW, that we start a good news, no negative comments and only positive stories for 4 hours every Friday? We find good stories and we dedicate 4 hours to only positive comments? Do you think we could do that?
AdLib : aren’t the only story. Customers can also cut their CO2 emissions by 40%-100% compared to the U.S. grid (depending on their fuel choice) and virtually eliminate all SOx, NOx, and other harmful smog forming particulate emissions. Installing Bloom Energy Servers allows you to dramatically reduce your carbon footprint, but not at the cost of your bottom line.
choicelady : kes – yes, THAT is a laugh! Cheap! Hah!
Blues Tiger : CL the first 2 reactor loans were given to a company that has a horrible safety record, just so happens they were the biggest spenders in Lobbying for them
AdLib : Best of Both Worlds – You Don’t Have to Choose Few would pay more to be green, but wouldn’t everybody go green to save money? For far too long, companies have been forced to choose between their budget and their conscience. Bloom Energy is changing that paradigm. Bloom allows you to save money first. The efficiency built into Bloom’s fuel cell systems allows a typical customer to achieve a 3-5 year financial payback making it an easy and economically sound choice. But the economics aren
kesmarn : Yes, Patsy, when the nuke plant went in in NW Ohio, they promised extremely cheap energy for many decades. HAHAHAHAHA!!
KQµårk : Adlib at least you seem to understand that we need to make tough choices. The problem with most people is the want the same standard of living and want to avoid the tough choices.
choicelady : AdLib – I agree about the drilling for natural gas. Definitely. But it’s a non-renewable. WE have had several biomass plants with very clean records that generated electricity since the 70s. They are 1/20th the cost of a nuke but generate 1/10th the power. Someone also noted that if CA cleaned up the brush that torches our state each year and used if for fuel, we’d save money, clean up the air, and preserve our forests. Seems like a plan!
PatsyT : Kes Nuke can be safe but it’s run by people and I am seeing they are too prone to greed…..
AdLib : KQ and CL – Much as I do not like drilling, if the choice was nuclear, oil, coal or NG, I would support NG but not drilling anywhere sensitive.
kesmarn : …but I’m liking what I’m hearing here about this Bloom Box!
choicelady : KQ – I think now you’re right, but 20 years ago they were lied to about the dangers and the accidents just as we were. Did you know we had a meltdown in Detroit at the first comercial breeder reactor? They reclassified the reactor and brushed off the danger, but it was a very close call. Some such things happened in France, though I have no information about recent history. Some things – state secrets – are just as opaque in Europe.
PatsyT : AdLib I’m glad you are staying on top of the Bloom Box –
kesmarn : Hey, Patsy! My b-i-l, who’s not my fave person , but is a nuclear physicist sez nuclear can be done pretty safely.
KQµårk : BT the teeth is in criminal prosecutions because companies just pass off the cost of fines to consumers.
Blues Tiger : helloooooooo kes
AdLib : CL – That’s what the Bloom Box does, power generated at your home or office, not part of a grid. All through chemical reaction and the byproduct? Hydrogen which could be used to power hydrogen powered cars. It’s an incredible technology that’s being used by many major corps in a tril right now, FedEx, Google, Walmart, etc.
Blues Tiger : Dang CL I mage a huge deal about it on “Bloom Box” day!!!
PatsyT : Hey Kes
kesmarn : Hi All! Talkin’ energy?
Blues Tiger : Look guys they problem with Saftey is that OSHA has little or no teeth anymore, The violations were on going but the agencies that could actually do something about it are have been weakened
choicelady : Hi kes!
choicelady : Ad and BT – thanks! NEVER heard of this!
javaz : Hiya Kes!!!
AdLib : Hey Kes!
KQµårk : CL they have a more open media and more transparent government than we have. They just are more adult about things across the pond. They know if you are going to support modern civilization that there are risks involved. Her we want to consume 25% of the worlds energy and have it cheap and with now sacrifice.
kesmarn : Hola, just got home. I’ll lurk a bit to see what’s going on.
choicelady : KQ, BT, AdLib – I think natural gas is superb, but it involves drilling much as we do for oil. Now there are major opponents to the windmills proposed near Cape Cod (and since we have them, I can see why.) So every bit of energy we have will involve choices, and someone is NOT going to like it. I would think on-you-home solar and wind generators (there are small versions) and being off the grid makes the best sense.
javaz : Let me ask a question, if you all don’t mind, but do you think there is any hope?
PatsyT : It is so sad to say but these miners should make all these industries clean up their act- forget this get gubmnt out of our way – look at what that just did
AdLib : And here’s their home web site: «link»
Blues Tiger : Just dearch Bloom Box CL , there is a great 60 minutes vid about it
AdLib : CL – Here’s a 60 Minutes episode on it: «link»
choicelady : AdLib – I don’t know what that is? Is it for real? Tell more!
Blues Tiger : KQ they have found one huge gas supply out in the middle of the Gulf
AdLib : CL – Instead of coal and nuje, I would like our government to focus on building something like the Bloom Box. Hell, for the price of one nuclear reactor, every home in some states could have their own Bloom Box and generate their own electricity.
choicelady : KQ – I know, but they also are not told of the leaks and hazards either. They have had some serious mishaps that got revealed YEARS after they occurred. I think they’re not as safe as they think.
javaz : I like that, AdLib – the reasonable caucus – I like that a lot.
Blues Tiger : AdLib Okla went “Right To Work” under a crooked Blue Legislature
KQµårk : Adlib most of the huge NG supplies are off our shores and that has been banned for years too. Like I did in my career I always used Europe as a model and it amazes me how they fear offshore production of NG and nuclear energy far less than we do when they are on average more concerned about the environment than regular Americans.
choicelady : Patsy – things are probably more upfront now, but the NRC has never been honest about the hazards or the frequency. I’m sorry you live so close!
javaz : Choicelady, I do think that we can, but we’ve got to be sneaky – we cannot come off as Dems or Libs or Progressives – but what we have to do is talk commonsense – and that’s hard because from our prospective we know so many Republicans and they are hardline Reagan lovers, but we can reach them.
PatsyT : I live near San Onofre and We wonder- -for instance we often read about violations and that makes you question things -big time.. look at the violations they had in the mine..
choicelady : AQdLib – I like that! A reasonable caucus!
AdLib : javaz – I agree that we need the Reasonable Caucus to overpower the Loony Caucus in this nation.
AdLib : javaz – I don’t think that little old lady can process reason. There are some people who only respond to authoritarian figures, fear and hate. They didn’t use reason to arrive at their current opinion so you can’t use reason to get them out of it. They are lost causes.
choicelady : Patsy – I did a lot of work on nuke safety, and it’s not only not safe, it’s filthy. The carbon expended in mining that is unbelievable.
choicelady : javaz -CAn we move the disaffected Republicans to vote more progressively?
AdLib : KQ – I can’t tell you how bad I feel for your father and uncles being locked into such terrible work. I am not a nuclear proponent as you know but a travesty is that this nation chose to go the route of coal burning generators instead of say natural gas.
PatsyT : KQ I would be Ok with Nuc energy if they could show us how safe it is
javaz : AdLib, that’s the problem, isn’t it? Our only hope are the Independents, which is what my husband and I are even though we are registered Dems, but we must somehow reach out to the David Frums of the GOP, because there are so many Republicans that are disgusted with their party. Oh, don’t we all wish that we had more than 2 viable parties in this country?
AdLib : BT – OK is such a conservative state, the sad thing is that the oil field workers who would most benefit oppose their own best interest because they’ve been programmed by their party. It’s unbelievable.
AdLib : Patsy – They weren’t even in the mine days after! How many could be alive after 3 days of internal injuries and suffocation?
javaz : That little old lady that was on Letterman was in my opinion something to see, because she was a very nice little old lady, and Letterman was very respectful to her, but I thought it was very important to listen to her even though she quoted Beck, and loved Palin and loved DeMint. Somehow we must reach her and tell her that she’s wrong.
KQµårk : My father and all my uncles worked in the coal mines of PA at one time or another and it’s awful work. I know most of you don’t agree here but we had a chance for energy independence and we chose coal over nuclear and developing new energy like Carter wanted. I guarantee you more people will have died mining and burning coal instead of incorporating a responsible amount of nuclear energy.
Blues Tiger : Do ya’ll think that NAFTA makes it more difficult for American workers to Unionize?
AdLib : javaz – Yes, this is the thing, these kinds of abuse by the wealthy owners of the lives of the lowly employees is indeed a caste system. And the welathy have the gall of attacking Dems of wanting class warfare! To them, that means the people fighting back instead of being bombed into submission.
PatsyT : Without the unions aren’t we going back to the ruling class?
Blues Tiger : AdLib they have fought Unionizing the Oilfields here forever it seems
AdLib : KQ – As with HCR, if Obama comes out with a clear and simple message that it HELPS Americans to have a choice of being in a union and not having companies use threats and deceit to undermine unionizing, he could win his point.
Blues Tiger : Carter had already prepared to take the same action that Reagan did… It was already in place for Reagan when he came into office… All he had to do was follow through
PatsyT : Just looking at how difficult it was for the rescuers to go into that mine – it makes you say – Why was anyone going in there to begin with?
AdLib : BT – That is often the problem for these kinds of very dangerous jobs. And keeping the union out means even greater danger for workers.
javaz : Talking about miner’s deaths, are we all forgetting the mine in Utah? You do know that they never recovered those bodies, right? And that was under Bush Jr.
KQµårk : Card check needed some momentum for sure. Again you have the public in general going against unions because they have been demonized by Reagan. It’s always been a heavy lift to get card check but this may make it easier. Also the issue is more complex but on the surface it looks like union organizers want to bypass a democratic process when that’s not the truth.
AdLib : javaz – I just updated the software and forgot to reset the limit to unlimited! Will have it fixed by next week!
AdLib : Patsy, it is sad that people have to be murdered…and this was murder since the owner chose this possibility over fixing the unsafe conditions…for our government to take notice that the working class, 99% of this nation, is being endangered and treated as worthless.
Blues Tiger : The sad thing is that the mine was the only decent paying work for most in that area… Even if they didn’t want to be a miner some had little choice
javaz : oh, do we have a limit here with what we type? I’ll finish the sentence here then – but it’s hard to say with the climate in the US when it comes to jobs and unions.
PatsyT : AdLib sorry to say but with these miners deaths Obama may have to get involved at least I think I heard that he was calling the union guy on Ed or Rachal today
AdLib : BT – Yes he did but as part of his run up to HCR, he tabled all issues that could be seen as angering Repubs. Now, after HCR, it’s up in the air, he seems to not want to anger them again. I don’t know that he’s up for it right now.
javaz : Jack Welch or Welsh – that guy from GE – he was the SOB that started it all with outsourcing and cracking down on unions, well, Reagan destroyed unions, but unions will come back – like Cher – am a proud UAW worker and support unions all the way – when I moved from automotive to Arizona and worked in aerospace – well, Arizona is a right to work state and they hate unions here and we are paying the price. With the latest mining accident, that might help with union rights coming back, but it’s ha
Blues Tiger : AdLib wasn’t that one of the things he campaigned in favor for?
AdLib : KQ – That is why I am a bit disappointed that the card check legislation to help make unionizing easier is not currently being pressed by Obama.
PatsyT : KQ I can see how real jobs can bring back the midwest – the green jobs – I hope they can deliver
AdLib : javaz – Toyota may have shown a profit but numbers came out showing growth in the US market and lesser numbers for Toyota. So, though it has not been a total loss, it has been a loss.
PatsyT : Baby bito …
KQµårk : With so many plants closing and so much manufacturing equipment in surplus it really just takes organization.
AdLib : Do that bito. We don’t want them delivering a baby from you.
PatsyT : Count me in ! I love to dance
bitohistory : hey everyone shift change, I have try to pay attention.
AdLib : Patsy – By then they will be able to do both. “Dancing With and To The Organs!” will be a hit tv show for seniors.
AdLib : KQ – The problem with making employee ownership a widespread reality is that the hedge funds and multinational corps that own everything, want to own more, not sell. A good first step in that direction would be unionizing the American workforce broadly.
javaz : Toyota showed a profit, AdLib, believe it or not, all that crap is not hurting them, because they are offering the zero interest and zero down, and people are loyal to manufacturers, just like people who own Honda’s love Honda’s
PatsyT : AdLib the kind you play or the kind you use to process your twinkies?
KQµårk : BT that’s exactly what the right wing wants you to believe that SS and any social program won’t be there. It will be there with minor tweaks to the system.
AdLib : Patsy – Walmart will begin selling organs.
nottoolate : Hello, Bito!! How great!
AdLib : javaz – Thanks to Toyota, this is a good environment for the US car companies to come back, especially if they focus on alternative fuels and electric cars.
KQµårk : Yup Adlib I would go one step further and have employee ownership of business. Having outside shareholders with no real skin in the game save for a piece of paper investment was bound to be a corrupt system.
Blues Tiger : I am not counting on SS beingthere when I come of age
PatsyT : They give you good discounts on your depends
Blues Tiger : howdy Bito!!!
AdLib : BITO!!! HEY HEY!!!
AdLib : “Welcome to Walmart, I’m PatsyT and I’m 100 years old. I only have to work 10 more years to get Social Security.”
PatsyT : Hey Bito
javaz : B’ITO!!!
KQµårk : At the beginning they had a few independents but now they are just Rebugs, you are correct.
javaz : I’m very concerned about the auto industry – in my very humble opinion, we must save the automotive industry – and Chrysler does have some phenomenal engineering when it comes to their HEMIs and Chrysler is failing – GM is going to pay the loan back and Ford never borrowed – so let’s all hope that when Chrysler goes down that an American automaker buys them and not China
bitohistory : I will try to observe from sick bay
AdLib : What about this nation supporting unionizing strongly again? That is the only tool workers have and it is what created the middle class.
PatsyT : Blankenship is friends with Hannity
AdLib : Whoops, make that Koch…pronounce d Kock.
AdLib : javaz – The Tea Partiers are not legit, recent polls show they are close to 80% admitted Republicans. It’s a sham financed by top GOP financiers, chiefly FreedomWorks, Fox and Kock.
PatsyT : Hey BT
PatsyT : AdLib . . Look for me at the WalMart
KQµårk : That’s the point Adlib the old Ronnie Reagan government is not the answer is still in the hear of most Americans.
javaz : Hey BT!!!
AdLib : Hey BT!
AdLib : Patsy 0 So when you’re one hundred, will you still need to be working a part time job?
Blues Tiger : Jellooooooooooo
PatsyT : It is all about the marketing – they actually have to market what is good for you to counteract what is BAD for you
AdLib : Hey KQ! That’s the insanity though, these idjits are more pissed off at the government…whi ch is the only entity that can protect them from this happening again and worse and they’re letting the banks off the hook.
KQµårk : Hey javaz, what’s up?
PatsyT : Hey KQ
javaz : Hiya KQ!!!
KQµårk : Adlib like usual the ruling class has used the old divide and conquer scheme to divide the working people all the anger that populists levied at the banks from the right is geared at Obama and the Democrats and the left just hates anyone in power.
AdLib : Patsy – I’m not counting on Repubs to smarten up but for the public to be fed up with being dominated.
PatsyT : I mean 50
PatsyT : In 59 years i’ll be a happy hundred
javaz : according to the tea party people they are still very angry at the banks, but I might be biased on this one, but they also think it was wrong to bail out the automotive companies – GM is set to pay it back and will show a profit, but sorry to say Chrysler is still struggling, yet Chrysler’s biggest sale is the RAM and Chrysler has the most amazing engineering in their RAM line, and so if they fail, Ford or GM will hopefully buy that.
PatsyT : They will not look at their own errors -republicans – no one wants to admit they are wrong and they will prove it by being MORE wrong
AdLib : So what is life going to be like in America in 50 years?
AdLib : Patsy – I don’t know, I don’t see even that moving people to reject the imbalance in our economic system.
PatsyT : One of Sarah P nuts taking someone out
AdLib : It seems like American anger at banks and corporations has receded so quickly. What will it take to get people to stand up?
javaz : AdLib, we are on a slide from our democracy, imho, and it’s going to take more than the mining accident, sadly, and does anyone else watch Letterman and when he had the very nice old lady one that started a Tea Party in her area? She quoted the talking points verbatim, and Letterman was very kind to her, but god help us all
AdLib : Patsy – We’ve seen all this before, again and again, especially in coal mining. The lives of “workers” are literally de-valued and profits come first.
PatsyT : That Blankenship guy looks very guilty.
AdLib : If the mine had been unionized, this disaster would probably not have occurred. Will Americans support a re-invigoration of unionizing or buy into corporate BS against it?
choicelady : Hi javaz, AdLib nottoo, and Pepe!
PatsyT : CL a whole new world- it would have halped if she already had her nobel peace prize
AdLib : TO BEGIN, THE MINE DISASTER THIS WEEK WAS A PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION OF WHAT HAS BEEN GOING ON IN OUR SOCIETY. THE MIDDLE CLASS BEING PUT AT RISK AND THEIR LIVES BEING DEVALUED BY THE CORPORATE OWNERSHIP CLASS IN THIS SOCIETY. IN LIGHT OF THE BANKS DESTROYING OUR ECONOMY AND CORPORATE TAKEOVER OF OUR DEMOCRACY. WILL THE PUBLIC FINALLY RISE UP OR ARE WE ON A CONTINUED SLIDE AWAY FROM A FAIR DEMOCRACY?
PepeLepew : I’ll be in an out a bit, but trying to hang in.
choicelady : Patsy – I hear it’s infinitely worse than when we went to college. Good luck!
javaz : pepe, heard the glaciers are melting and we are heading up this July to see what is left
PatsyT : Hey Choice Hey Pepe !
PatsyT : Working the admissions process for our oldest -WOW wake up time !
javaz : Hi Pepe, and hi Choicelady!
AdLib : Hey Pepe and CL!
javaz : not to mention we have one of them converter boxes for the TV, and we know for certain that they are monitoring us that way – and sadly, there are people who believe that!
choicelady : Hi everyone – choicelady here
PepeLepew : Hello
nottoolate : Yes, so far. Also no topic so far. Jeez, I have not been reduced to Morse haiku yet.
PatsyT : Javez we gotta get you on the youtubes !
AdLib : So, what’s everyone up to this weekend?
AdLib : nottoo – so far…
PatsyT : Hi nottoo
nottoolate : Yum. So far this is slower than last week.
AdLib : Just a few minutes until we begin.
javaz : our dog has a chip and I think he is a spy
javaz : Hi Nottoolate!
AdLib : Hi nottoolate!
AdLib : I hear they can use your socialism to spy on you. I’m a’scared!
nottoolate : Hello. I am here.
PatsyT : ‘well’
javaz : I’ve got my tin foil hat on
PatsyT : Hy Javez hope all is weel in AZ
PatsyT : I knew it… they are watching me
AdLib : Patsy – Sounds like a Republican plot!
PatsyT : Hey my computer has been acting funny so if I disappear you will know why. I have been a drive by poster lately
AdLib : People of The Planet – hello!!!
javaz : Hi Patsy!
AdLib : Hey Patsy! How are you?
javaz : People of earth – been watching too much Craig Ferguson – but hello!
PatsyT : Hi AdLib
AdLib : Vox Populi is about to begin, please say hi when you arrive!