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The New Torture Debate is Another Logical Fallacy

If you say so choice, I have every reason to believe that you are satisfied with your sources. And that’s a good and comfortable place to be for anyone.
And I say, “good for you!”
I need more. That’s all.
I really don’t care to argue or war over it. OK?
We all come to our own truths in our own time.

» Posted By foxisms On May 4, 2011 @ 1:55 pm

choice, I see why you choose to hang your hope on these particular coat hooks, and many people hang theirs on others with far less confidence, so I can hardly fault yours.
Me? I’m looking forward to something a little more solid, I suppose. I need that.
Going on faith alone for policy of this or any administration is why so many are surprised when they learn of there being a gap between the message and the means as we have done from the Bay of Tonkin to the Iraq invasion to what we ultimately learned about Abu Ghraib.
My skittishness is no reflection on President Obama, his administration or the possibility of any hopes he may promise and make good on. I wish him well with his agenda but I don’t pretend to know it. He remains my president too.
You and I are just two different people going about what we do and yet (I think) hoping for the same outcomes.

» Posted By foxisms On May 4, 2011 @ 1:47 pm

I at no point questioned your faith in the current admin nor do I feel I would deliberately do so.

I contend that making an argument for or against something in which I question the logic of the opposition requires that I have a marriage of facts supporting the concluding logic.
If I understand you correctly, you have a broader sense of the process and are willing to accept a marriage between faith and belief to support logic.
I think there’s room for all that on this world.
(And who told you about the puppies?) 😀

» Posted By foxisms On May 4, 2011 @ 1:34 pm

KQ, we’re splitting hairs here.
While it is true that nothing I’ve said proves that the US uses techniques like water boarding…nothing in what your article said proves that the US doesn’t use techniques like water boarding.
I wasn’t attempting to prove the use or non use of techniques like water boarding.
With all applicable respect, I was pointing out (in perhaps too many words) that to draw a ‘truth’ based upon information that we are not necessarily made honest privy to in the first place (as we have found to be so in the recent past) is in itself, highly unreliable and as such, illogical in application.
And that premise then becomes a logical fallacy in equal merit to the one which is being addressed as same.
KQ…we have no idea what’s actually going on in these facilities. None what so ever. How do we draw any sort of ‘educated’ conclusion on this basis, let alone use that conclusion to refute “logic” from a source that contains no more fact on the matter than we may?
Is there? Is there not(?) is not the question.
What are the facts?
All we have is what we are told. And we have seen the integrity of what we are told to often contain little to no factual basis.
Using said information then to form a concrete argument against another that knows as little as we do, becomes, well, illogical.
Instead it becomes simply an article of faith.

» Posted By foxisms On May 4, 2011 @ 12:39 pm

ST. I don’t think we have any way to confirm that water boarding or any other harsh treatment has been eliminated from the menu provided to extract information from someone that would lead to the sense of security (real or imagined) that might be being sought by agents CIA or military…regardless of the public signing of documents to that effect.
It may be carried out by an allied companion in our behalf and at our behest in a mutually shared and hidden holding facility, thus removing the implicit involvement of US personnel or it may be going on otherwise as a matter of course. It may be happening less than previously or more than previously. Who’s to say?
But we have no way of knowing what practices are being implemented or not, now, any more than we have known prior to the occurances of those instances that we “accidentally” became aware of in the first place. Perhaps it’s a matter of faith. Perhaps it’s a hope for the best. But it’s not a known variable now any more than it was in the past.

» Posted By foxisms On May 4, 2011 @ 9:19 am

Perhaps the use of torture remains an issue because after years of the American people telling themselves that our country was above that sort of treatment for people in our custody and that ‘only the bad guys would do such a thing to people in their custody’ — we were hit with scenes from Gitmo, followed by the family photo albums from Abu Ghraib and most recently, the use and official justification of wide spread “water boarding” as a means to extract information. Underlying this was the knowledge that there was no “logical”, compelling reason to be engaged in certain theaters of combat to begin with, at which point the whole American self image thing kind of took a massive beating for a good while there. And still has the bruises to show it.
We have no reason to be confident that torture is no longer in use now, anymore than we did then. It’s not the kind of thing political officials or military personnel like to own up to in a free society that likes to see itself above all that.
The fact is, the American people have no real way of knowing or verifying if torture is or isn’t in any fashion, still in practice as an informational tool in any one of perhaps dozens of secreted, off shore, international gulags run for the convenience (or security) of American and NATO secret (and not so secret) forces. Knowing this, knowing human nature, knowing our history and the history and practices of war in general… I think it’s perfectly logical to at least assume the possibility of torture remaining an implement and practice of advantage to no less degree than ever.
“Logic” and “logical fallacies” began to lose their meanings when people began using them as arguments to support their own “logical” conclusions while bypassing the equations necessary to support, qualify and trace any and all “logic” involved or being declared.
Of course everyone with an opinion believes it to be, if not correct entirely, then certainly derived at “logically” and thus it must be “logical”. Everyone I know believes their arguments and opinions are founded on sound logic. I’m sure everyone you know does too.
But more often than not, it isn’t. Not really. It’s just an opinion added to those expressed by everyone else. It can be well thought out, and to some or many (and especially the originator)it genuinely feels logical. But calling it such makes it no more right or wrong or no more a logical construction or a logical fallacy than any other…no matter how well written or expressed as this one and many here and elsewhere are.
The use of the word “logical” has become simultaneously a qualifier and a disclaimer as an entrance fee for modern conversation and credibility. As such, it has moved from simply representing the science of logic, to something all together different.
Not necessarily a bad thing or something used by bad intended people, by any means. But still, something entirely different than what it once was.

» Posted By foxisms On May 4, 2011 @ 8:57 am

The Daily Planet, Vol. 69

I dunno.
Maybe they had them all out on rental to Hollywood’s motion picture industry?

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 12:20 pm

Well, then..(and not for the first time, I assure you, Cher) while my take on this might contain some small point of interest, my overall assumption would appear to be way off the mark. (Oh, were it not for my ongoing familiarity with this phenomena, I would just hate it when that happens!)
I really was hoping beyond hope to finally establish the existence of those black helicopters! I know we got em’, dammit!
Short of that…then I suppose OBL may very well have been busy turning up the volume on his television when the company (no pun intended) came to visit.
😀

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 11:46 am

Nice edition of the Planet, Cher.
Wow. 79 members of the special forces and multiple helicopters to breach the villa.
(I’m surprised “they” didn’t go with the ever popular “compound” descriptor as is common in situations like this.)
At any rate, I guess we can put to rest the arguments of people who continually debunk “black/whisper helicopters” as a conspiracy theory.
It isn’t likely Osama would have heard helicopters and done nothing but turn up his TV.
Thanks again for bringing the news to my morning table.
And I don’t even have to dig it out of the flower bed in my robe and slippers!

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 9:30 am

BREAKING NEWS: Osama Bin Laden Dead

Inappropriate?
But let’s not stop making repairations there.
Let’s have it officially announced and put to record that the taking of Geronimo and his people was an inappropriate act unto itself.
I’m sure that in it’s time, this was a sensational event on a par with the raid on OBL. We have never been a people to miss making the most of a “Yippie!” moment.
I’ve nothing new to add to this recent event.
The actual Geronimo incident and all the betrayal that was perpetrated against the indigenous people of this continent has never been given it’s due apologies or regrets.
A few remunerations and relaxing of power/sovereignty on ‘reservation’ lands…but no expressed apologies for policy, the barbaric scourges that they led to and no implied or declared regrets.
These wounds will never heal completely without the proper closure.
OK…I would have posted this on TooT had the subject of appropriateness regarding the American Indian not come up here initially.

» Posted By foxisms On May 4, 2011 @ 11:27 am

Saint or sinner, ST, one dead guy looks pretty much the same as another to me.
Pretty much like what’s left of an ear of corn after the picnic.
Just the husk. None of the substance.

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 8:26 pm

SallyT, I think it was right for President Obama to be magnanimous about this and invite him.
I think it was also right for Bush to decline.
It’s one of the less jerky things he’s ever done.
He certainly wouldn’t have fooled anyone about his role in all this had he accepted.
And in fact our President doesn’t need to drag around a failed predecessor to these functions.
I think had Bush accepted it would have cost both of them some serious points. And Obama doesn’t need to get dragged down in Dubbya’s swamp.

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 8:20 pm

E’cat…I saw just the opening to this post over on the right (“Does anybody know what happened to bin Laden’s wife…”) and for a brief moment I expected to see a vaudeville sort of joke being set up.
I didn’t come for the punch line and I’m glad my first impression was way off. You pose a thoughtful query.
I haven’t heard anything…but then I haven’t heard much.
I’m sure one of the ‘Planeteers’ will come up with something on that.

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 8:13 pm

Very thoughtful piece, KT.
Thanx, much.
You still got it!

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 8:06 pm

Adonai, I thought it was the pipeline and securing routes for it.
OBL was just a media tool to obfuscate.
And now that there is no longer that particular lynch pin another will be manufactured and packaged.
We’ve watched it go from WMDs to yellow cake to Democracy to freedom to Taliban and perhaps the largest…OBL.
After 10 years and one by one addressing each and every one of these “reasons” (and more) for being in the M.E. the newest reasons are to aid the Libyans, keep Iran in check, (in check for what, I have no idea. I recall early on we have been told by the UN inspectors that regardless of the Iranian bluster, Iran is a decade away from being a nuclear threat. And having no delivery system doesn’t make them likely to be a US security threat beyond that.)…protect the people of Syria, Jordan, Tunisia and give them freedom Provide aid to Israel who happens to have a top notch military, air defense and (oops!) nuclear weapons already.
You may not agree..and that’s OK, Adonai…but you can see where I’m going so I yield the floor.

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 7:55 pm

Well said, Chaz.

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 7:34 pm

OK…this was worth the price of admission, Patsy! 😀

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 7:25 pm

Hey Adonai.. I ain’t the guy to tell you you can’t have an original opinion or that mine might weigh more on a scale than your own.
As far as I’m concerned, we all have our own path to walk.
I think we can share the forest rather than fight over it.

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 6:46 pm

Whew, KT, that’s a relief.
I have you on my official list of ‘last people I would care to alienate’.
But if you’re looking for me, I’ll still be right over here, by my water bowl. 🙂

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 6:21 pm

Bito, well, now I certainly know what that experience is like. 🙂

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 5:42 pm

Ah…but Karma is, KT.
We reap what we sow?
The law of cause and effect?
Jus’ sayin’…If you want me to get off your back, just say so. I can be dense sometimes…but I’m trainable.
I’ll just be over here by my water bowl.

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 5:39 pm

chaz, I’m sure there are times when several of us think this may not be the place for us.
I’m certainly one.
I considered my options and figured I could always leave, but if I stayed I might learn something.
Straight up? On principle, there is much you say that I agree with if that in itself might make you feel any better.
Remember “you’ve got so much to say, say what you mean.
Mean what you’re thinking, and think anything. Why not?”
But in real estate, it’s location, location, location”.
In communicating, it’s “delivery, delivery, delivery”.
[I talk a pretty good game don’t I for all my acquired comment board irrelevance, don’t I?]
Sorry if you really gotta go. We all have as much to teach as we have to learn.

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 5:22 pm

I think you were very considerate, Kalima.
…and gracious, to boot!

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 5:07 pm

Please just think about this KT…OBL came from a culture hinged on a warrior prophet just as many people who have proven to come up way short morally come from a culture hinged on a Carpenter’s son.
Who can say without a certain cringe factor, that anyone of us doesn’t deserve a religious burial?
What does the Tao say?
I don’t know or practice throwing the reeds or coins as much you seem to, my friend but compared to a Muslim or a Christian, we’re practically Taoist…aren’t we?
Thx for letting me get this out, KT. No offense is meant.

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 5:04 pm

You are a constant, cher.
I feel like a light was turned on. I had no idea when I asked. But I do now.
Thanx!

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 4:41 pm

Thx, choice!
It’s good to hear things on the real people level.
Interesting point about the Imam, too.

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 4:34 pm

bit, Kalima did exactly the right thing.
I hope you don’t think I was aware of any negative connotations.

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 4:19 pm

Kalima, I don’t mind at all. Considering things, I’m happy you did.
Thank you!
I’ve never been off of this continent and as such, I am culturally deficient on the subtle context of language of many other lands and people.
Any use of the term was never intended to injure or insult anyone ( I do hope you understand that.) and applied only to the context to which I knew it to be… a harmless abbreviation similar to “Brits” and “Yanks”.
So my apologies to anyone who took offense and I’ll be a little more cautiously sensitive and a little less glib in the future.
And again, sincere thanx, Kalima.

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 4:13 pm

jkk, that qualifies us to be, “Thing One and Thing Two”!

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 3:51 pm

chaz…I ‘get’ you. Really.
But to maybe help you find a little equilibrium on this particular subject, (’cause yer goin’ all over the place, my friend) let me offer what might very well be considered by some koans and sound advice by others.

Honesty without tenderness is no longer honesty. It becomes cruelty.
And
“Everything in moderation.” Ben Franklin

I pass no judgment, chaz. Be who ever you choose to be and think whatever you want to think. (certainly don’t need my permission to do that.) But you seem to have a message that you want very badly to deliver.
You will have a difficult time getting it across, if you don’t pace yourself and make the necessary connections.
S’all I’m sayin’. If any of this shit means any thing to you, and you can use it…great! If not…I advance my apologies.

» Posted By foxisms On May 3, 2011 @ 3:09 pm