Displaying 2,791 To 2,820 Of 3,237 Comments On the eve of destruction http://www.salon.com/2011/11/14/on_the_eve_of_destruction/?source=newsletter On the scene reporting re. the debate re. tactics within the Oakand encampment. “….The debate over nonviolence had polarized the camp, and the protesters who wanted Occupy Oakland to distance itself from vandalism and worse were themselves becoming pariahs…..” Very much worth reading. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 10:09 pm Me too. I am looking for a feed. So far nothing, but the search is on. This could be a turning point….. My little support group has suddenly congealed around the court decisions today. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 6:32 pm We just got the word: Federal judge Carol Jackson refused tonight to order Kiener Plaza in St. Louis Mo. re-opened for round-the-clock protests by Occupy St. Louis. We lost the tent city this weekend after police began enforcing a 10 p.m. curfew in city parks. Jackson actually came back to court to make the ruling rather than just issuing it. Jackson said we had failed to show that the curfew was being selectively enforced by the city and the police in Kiener Plaza or that the enforcement was a reaction to the political nature of the protest. Further, she said that in a full hearing of the case we were unlikely to prevail. Numbers at or near the site are way down. Fortunately no one is in jail tonight, and those needing shelter have gotten it. Think tank tomorrow morning at 6 AM. Very little media coverage here. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 6:30 pm Reich’s address on class warfare has been previewed as very pointed. Given its enhanced context on the steps it will get wide ranging coverage. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 6:14 pm Actually your impression is one that is very easy to understand- his work is large and quite varied in its style and content. You sampled one set. Others showed you the other side. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 5:30 pm And Adams had the perspective of a person very much embedded in institutional structures and yet was revolutionary. I have always been impressed by his defense of the British shoulders in the Boston Massacre. Principle first. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 5:28 pm Ignorance is not bliss it is just that the ignorant appear to be so happy. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 5:23 pm Yup. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 5:22 pm YIKES! Well, the register is a computer scanner….so I am probably ok. Still, makes one wonder. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 5:22 pm Welcome » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 5:20 pm Now that’s what I’m talking about. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 5:19 pm OH, I am not arguing with you. I suspect wherever I go I would find the same thing. And I am sure that the right is better at driving its drones to the polls (and making sure they can vote when they get there). The left really is about herding cats. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 3:40 pm Eviction Will Rekindle the Occupy Fire If you count yourself among the 99 percent, don’t be dispirited by early Tuesday’s police raid on Zuccotti Park. It may look like the end of Occupy Wall Street, but it’s a development protesters should actually welcome, writes Matt Yglesias at Think Progress. “OWS was either going to end with the cops clearing the park, or else it was going to end with the protestors losing interest.” Without intervention, OWS was facing a demoralizing potential end when the winter hit. “The worst possible outcome is for the movement to just kind of fade away, and by trying to forcibly clear the park with the NYPD, Bloomberg has guaranteed that won’t happen.” Good article by Matthew Yglesias at http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/11/15/368459/getting-kicked-out-of-zuccotti-park-is-probably-good-for-ows/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=cheatsheet_afternoon&cid=newsletter%3Bemail%3Bcheatsheet_afternoon&utm_term=Cheat%20Sheet » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 3:35 pm At a local supermarket yesterday. In line, saw the front page of one of gossip rags proclaiming the Obama was a “manchurian candidate” having been programmed in Indonesia as a boy and was an agent of Pakistani Muslims. I read this outloud to a friend, a woman in front of us said it was all true and that Obama should be impeached. The cashier, a 20 something who seems quite bright, looked up and said: “I thought he already was impeached. Is he still the president?.” The American electorate. Insane. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 3:30 pm The crowds streaming back into Zuccotti Park in NY. Police announcing the new rules (No tents, no sleeping bags, no large back packs, no sitting on the ground). http://www.ustream.tv/theother99 This may revitalize the movement. Stupid courts, stupid police, stupid city administrations make for good video footage. Surely there was/is a better way. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 3:25 pm I am missing something here. Can you fill me in? Is this Hedges you are addressing?” I may have missed some vital info. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 3:16 pm Is Hedges a leader? Opinion maker and shaper, yes. Leader? I don’t think so. His wiki bio seems to say that he has been close to a lot of action: “He spent nearly two decades as a foreign correspondent in Central America, the Middle East, Africa and the Balkans. He has reported from more than fifty countries, and has worked for The Christian Science Monitor, National Public Radio, The Dallas Morning News, and The New York Times,[1] where he was a foreign correspondent for fifteen years (1990–2005).” It is his thinking that I often find troubling. “Death of the Liberal Class” is hyperbole start to finish. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 3:13 pm It seems likely to me. Homeland Security now costs a huge shadow over state, county and city law enforcement. Funding, regularatory oversight, training, equipment, all create ties between Federal and Local law enforcement. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 3:09 pm AMY GOODMAN: Your assessment of President Obama? CHRIS HEDGES: A disaster. A poster child for the bankruptcy of the liberal class. Somebody who, like Clinton, is a self-identified liberal, who speaks in the traditional language of liberalism but has made war against the core values of liberalism, which is a concern for those people outside the narrow power elite. And the tragedy, if tragedy is the right word, is that Obama, who made this Faustian bargain with corporate interests in order to gain power, has now been crumpled up and thrown away by these interests. They don’t need him anymore. He functioned as a brand after the disastrous eight years of George Bush. And what we are watching is an even more craven attempt on the part of the White House to cater to the forces that are literally destroying the United States, have reconfigured, are reconfiguring this country into a form of neofeudalism. And all of the traditional — the pillars of the liberal establishment, that once provided some kind of protection and, more importantly, a kind of safety valve, a mechanism by which legitimate grievances and injustices in this country could be addressed, have shut tight. They no longer work. And so, we are getting these terrifying, proto-fascist movements that are leaping up around the fringes of American society and have as their anger not only a rage against government, but a rage against liberals, as well. And I would say that rage is not misplaced. http://www.democracynow.org/2010/12/20/chris_hedges_obama_is_a_poster » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 2:44 pm He is interesting and provocative but also a pain in the butt. Take a look at what Cher has to say about him above and my response. Still his message here is that the use of force in this fashion is grossly provocative. I believe it is. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 2:40 pm Hyperbole and venom. Agreed. What he says provoke reaction and here he is saying something that does get me going. In this case he points to what the use of force by government means when it is applied in this fashion to people who are pretty much without defense. I find it very disturbing. BUT….Chris Hedges argues that, for decades, liberals have surrendered the good fights to corporations and ruling powers. In Death of the Liberal Class, Hedges slams five specific groups and institutions — the Democratic Party, churches, unions, the media and academia — for failing Americans and allowing for the creation of a “permanent underclass.” A typical quote: “Populations will endure the repression of tyrants, as long as these rulers continue to manage and wield power effectively. But human history has demonstrated that once those in positions of power become redundant and impotent, yet insist on retaining the trappings and privileges of power, their subject populations will brutally discard them. Such a fate awaits the liberal class, which insists on clinging to its positions of privilege while at the same time refusing to play its traditional role within the democratic state. The liberal class has become a useless and despised appendage of corporate power.” Pretty much dismisses folks like me, and most of us here. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 2:38 pm Kilgore. Agreed. A virtual (via the internet, tweets, video) occupation and periodic occupation as you describe would do a lot to keep the movement alive. John Adams sets the goal for us in matters like this” “The Revolution was effected before the War commenced. The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments of their duties and obligations. This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people, was the real American Revolution.” Keeping the movement alive keeps the message alive and spreading. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 2:29 pm Hedges loves to be hyperbolic, but given his experience, I understand where this comes from. He has been in the front lines a lot. But, I agree that the case is overstated here. I think of John Adams’reflection on the nature of the American Revolution. “The Revolution was effected before the War commenced. The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments of their duties and obligations. This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people, was the real American Revolution.” We are not there yet, but there is a growing sense that fundamental understandings in our society are shifting. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 2:25 pm I am always ambivalent when I read Hedges, but in this case he points to what the use of force by government means when it is applied in this fashion. I find it very disturbing. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 2:19 pm View From Court: St Louis At Eagleton Federal Court House much of the morning and into the afternoon today…My observations. Occupy Movement “representatives” are trying to get an injunction to reestablish their encampment that was taken down on Friday night at Kiener Plaza. The law states that they are allowed in the park from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m., and can stand on the sidewalks overnight to further their agenda if they wish to do so. Not very practical. Judge Carol Jackson inquired as to the standing in the matter of the dozen or so persons who were there and was informed by attorney Joseph Welch that he was representing them as individuals not as a group. Jackson noted that formal association would provide the group with greater standing and wondered. if some other group might be willing to provide this. Welch argued that the city is selectively enforcing the curfew law as a convenient way to push out protestors, who first set up their tent city on October 1st. “(City) government does have an interest in regulating these things, but they cannot do it in a way that violates the protestors’ First Amendment rights. I agree that their are inconveniences associated with the protest but the right to protest is paramount here.” He noted that attempts by the city to use the Macy/Salvation Army Parade and Tree of Lights Fundraiser kickoff as an excuse for its action no longer applies as the events have been relocated. Paradoxically, as Chrissie Brooks, an Occupy Movement member, pointed out from the witness stand said they ended up at Kiener Plaza because the police directed them to go there. She said that police commanders told them that locating the protest in the Federal Plaza outside of the Federal Reserve Building would be a huge problem and that Kiener was a site they could use for an indefinite period. The judge asked if she knew the name of the commanding officers or had anything in writing. She could not and did not. Several other protestors were asked by the city attorney, Don Gillespie, how the city was to maintain law and order in the area. He asked if the individuals expected the city to take on all of the liability associated with the camp especially since there was no group permit and the overnight camping violated city ordinances. Efforts by the city to issue individual permits for overnight camping were rejected several weeks ago. Their answers strongly endorsed the right of the people to gather without formally organizing and the duty of government to protect the rights of its citizens. This appeal to higher law was more eloquently delivered by some than others, but all seemed to grasp the essential concepts. There were also some sharp moments when protestors got angry at the efforts to uncover personal motives. But Cheryl Comptom, a homeless woman, who joined the camp a month ago “I may be homeless, but I’m not stupid! We were the ones who kept it clean, who kept it safe not from the Occupyers, but from ‘outside people’,” she told the court. Throughout the entire hearing, the atmosphere was calm. No word on when the judge will hand down her ruling. Working on finding “housing” for those who do not have any place to go right now….. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 2:13 pm THIS IS WHAT REVOLUTION LOOKS LIKE Welcome to the revolution. Our elites have exposed their hand. They have nothing to offer. They can destroy but they cannot build. They can repress but they cannot lead. They can steal but they cannot share. They can talk but they cannot speak. They are as dead and useless to us as the water-soaked books, tents, sleeping bags, suitcases, food boxes and clothes that were tossed by sanitation workers Tuesday morning into garbage trucks in New York City. They have no ideas, no plans and no vision for the future……….I have seen my share of revolts, insurgencies and revolutions, from the guerrilla conflicts in the 1980s in Central America to the civil wars in Algeria, the Sudan and Yemen, to the Palestinian uprising to the revolutions in East Germany, Czechoslovakia and Romania as well as the wars in the former Yugoslavia. George Orwell wrote that all tyrannies rule through fraud and force, but that once the fraud is exposed they must rely exclusively on force. We have now entered the era of naked force. The vast million-person bureaucracy of the internal security and surveillance state will not be used to stop terrorism but to try and stop us. MORE AT: http://www.truthdig.com/report » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 15, 2011 @ 1:21 pm Cher…saw your comment re. “hubris” and armchair quarterbacks. I agree, and I do not think you are doing this. My objection was that I and the group to which I belong have not been sitting in armchairs. We have camped, we have marched, we have provided resources, showed coordinators how to access other resources, and then, when asked, worked on a vision statement, a blue print. But what I see happening I have seen before…a very few are controlling what is discuss and when. Those who set the agenda, control the agenda. Our vision statement has not been discussed- and there are no plans to do so. No reason given but our suspicion is that it was not what they wanted. This is not how to build a movement. I was part of a very effective one- Civil Rights, an ineffective one- Anti War, and one that never got off the ground- Poverty. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 13, 2011 @ 10:51 am Sally…don’t where your last post is on the thread but you know what you wrote. The five of us who wrote the Vision statement were asked to do so. We did with a lot of input including from folks here and elsewhere, most importantly those in the Occupation encampments. Prior to that we were connected as I described with some far more involved than I. The decision by those who asked us to do this not to take it up says something about them which is not good. They will take ideas to the assembly if they meet their pre-approval. That is a problem. This movement is not “their” movement…it is “ours”. But some are more equal than others it would appear and that points to leadership unwilling to consider alternative points of view. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 13, 2011 @ 10:43 am Sally…one more time. I have direct involvement in this. I have been on the street and camped out. I have provided resources and access to more. I have worked with the organizers in their efforts to negotiate with local government. Your point about “their” movement is one I do not accept. It is also “my” movement too. I have invested time, energy, effort and resources in it. Its issues are my issues. Is it your point that in order for me to have a say in what is going on I need to be there in permanent encampment? Is your point that I am older or that my generation did not create a perfect state? Talk about creating an elite based on arbitrary standards. I believe the movement is heading in the wrong direction. The think piece created by a group to which belong of long involved social justice advocates has not been debated in any assembly despite the request from coordinators that we craft the paper. Why? I believe because it runs contrary to what they want to hear. Every movement falls prey to this. The great temptation is to see oneself and one’s allies as oracles from which truth flows without pause. The wait and see tactic which seems to be at the heart of your comments, as well intentioned as they are, will lead to the movement either being ignored or suppressed. Time is wasting away. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 13, 2011 @ 7:10 am In reply to your comment about the media. Social media has widened the reach of minute by minute reporting on events…but it has created a huge field of misinformation and a cacophony which is so loud and persistent that many have shut out. You make a point that “in our day the news outlets were different. They were not corporate own and just for entertainment purposes. Wasn’t shows of just their opinions.” How so. Their were three major networks all corporately owned and tightly controlled. Local affiliates were managed by the networks. PBS existed and there were a some local programming stations. News was relegated to about an hour a day. Today’s cable, satellite and internet world has changed all of that. » Posted By MurphTheSurf3 On November 13, 2011 @ 6:42 amComments Posted By MurphTheSurf3
Before cops broke up Occupy Oakland,
the debate over nonviolence was already unraveling the movement
By Joan Walsh
by Chris Hedges
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