Stats

Comments Posted By AdLib

Displaying 16,921 To 16,950 Of 19,504 Comments

The American Crash

Well, anyone cheering this man would not be capable of answering a rational question like that.

As for what Americans don’t have today, I know you know all of this as well as I do but for the record, officially, they no longer own their democracy. 40 million in this nation have no health care and of those who do, some have been forced into bankruptcy despite that.

Maybe 20% of this country is unemployed or under-employed. Many have lost their homes and their jobs.

The American dream of owning a house and making enough to put your kids through a good college is evaporating for the next generation.

People are being suffocated by their rising credit card and medical/insurance bills, they have or are losing their nest eggs just to pay their bills and they’re looking down the barrel of Medicare and Social Security not necessarily being there for them when they retire.

There are children in poor neighborhoods and rural areas not getting good educations or meals, elderly people living in dismal and desperate conditions…I could go on and on.

I think the vast majority of Americans are doing okay and many can be fairly described as spoiled.

But there is an underclass in this nation that lives on a much narrower margin and a decline for them can put them in dire circumstances.

As I’ve said several times in this thread, so much is subjective. For those at the median income or better, America is one place. For those below, it is another place.

Kesmarn gave a stunning example of the rage that’s bubbling in parts of this nation, the people you describe who are so hateful as to praise a terrorist attack against our government are reflective of that too. The tenor of Teabaggers and RWs display the rage that’s out there. It’s a problem but it’s not being addressed…and only getting worse.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 11:42 pm

I appreciate that though it does not explain the continued misrepresentation of my position.

I would agree that he became a sociopath, I don’t know at what point that became the case. It would seem though that he did go severely mental pretty recently.

I wouldn’t personally refer to him as iconic in any case.

I think he was someone who bought into the RW propaganda and thought, as an American, he deserved to have it all.

When the hard realities prevented him from having it all, he snapped.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on whether this is an isolated incident of a sociopath whose disillusionment and desperation led him to such a heinous series of events.

I would unfortunately propose that this will not be the last domestic terrorist attack that occurs because of similar motivations.

My preference would be to try to figure out how to head off further and possibly bigger attacks if possible.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 11:18 pm

There’s the rub.

Suffering is all so subjective. Look at this guy, he owned a plane but lost his mind because he owed $40,000 in taxes.

He could have claimed bankruptcy. He could have sold his plane and his home if necessary to pay it off and he still would have been living far better than the people in the countries you mention.

Yet, one can’t dispute that subjectively, in his mind, he was suffering as much as the people you mention, more than that to commit such acts.

Certainly, we wouldn’t expect that Americans would be so submissive as to have to wait until they were living like poor South Americans until they were willing to stand up to their declining standard of living.

As for being spoiled, yes, in many ways we are. At the same time, as we continue to lose our democracy and there is greater inequity financially, are things not declining? Are people not dying every day because the lack of health care? Are people not living on the streets because they’ve lost their homes and can’t find jobs?

That too is subjective. Many Americans are spoiled but many are suffering right now too.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 11:04 pm

I have never suggested that such killers be treated any differently.

Nor have I ever suggested that that there is any justification or excuse for any of these actions.

Nor have I ever portrayed Stack as other than a hateful terrorist.

I don’t understand why curiosity into understanding why something happened in order to try and prevent reoccurrences continues to be equated with such sentiments.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 10:53 pm

I agree about the self-entitlement. He bought into the RW Reaganomics, that you should be able to take and not have to give back. Paying taxes was for the idiots.

He wanted to be like the churches and corporations and avoid having to pay tax, I would argue the reverse, they should be paying taxes like him and his taxes could go down.

It is indeed a reflection of the entitlement mentality but we should give credit where credit is due, another follower of RW propaganda driven into this horrible act by his belief in it.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 10:43 pm

Wonderful points!

I think the issue of the fantasies that Americans have been brainwashed to believe about life is indeed a factor in this situation and could indeed be connected to the situation we find our nation and democracy in.

According to his letter, Stack did indeed want the same tax-protected status of churches and corporations for himself. He did not want to pay taxes, just like them.

That is messed up as you point out so well, we would have no society if we had no money to pay for our infrastructure and services.

Thanks to the “you can have it all” mentality that I agree, started with the Reagan Presidency, people truly believe that they will be millionaires (though 97% won’t be) so they support tax cuts for the wealthy (including ending estate taxes!).

They blindly bought houses and borrowed on them because they could have it all, all the Escalades, plasma TVs and second stories to their houses that they could eat.

In fact, what was going on was a bait and switch, as salaries remained stagnant or declined, people were told that their house was a neverending piggy bank that would just keep filling back up with money.

So people spent more money to have everything they were “supposed” to have…but they weren’t paying for it with money they had, they were borrowing money against collateral that could go down in value.

So as America stands today, the shift of wealth from the majority of Americans to the top 3% has been massive. Americans are in more debt by far than ever in the history of this nation…meanwhile banks and corporations own more wealth than ever before in this nation’s history.

Where did those billions come from?

Us. Our tax money, our mortgage interest, our credit card interest, our gas purchases, etc.

Our economic system continues to be the most inequitable in history and unless it changes, there will be a breaking point, when a majority can no longer afford to use their shrinking wages to pay their bills for a home, car, food, gas, college for their kids, vacations, let alone a nest egg.

What will happen then? When people are virtual serfs, owing banks and insurance companies their whole lives and having to accept a lower standard of living just to satisfy their debts?

More people will snap and they will be as reviled as Stack, as they should be.

But does it have to happen again or can we seek to prevent at least some reoccurrences?

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 10:35 pm

No problem for me, hope you can afford the advertising fee. 😉

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 10:15 pm

Please read my note above on this, you know I have great respect for how thoughtful your opinions are, no disrespect intended.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 10:13 pm

I’m sorry if it came off as offensive, that was not my intention.

What I was trying to say is that IMO, the most typical reaction to an attack like this is to condemn the attacker, expressing justifiable outrage and leaving it there.

I don’t believe it is as common to put aside one’s outrage to seek the truth as to why this took place.

People generally seem to want to regard things like this in black and white, this man did something terrible and is terrible, which he did and is, so case closed.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 10:06 pm

Wow, that’s sobering…and what I’m concerned about.

My point is that this guy could be the tip of an iceberg of rage and resentment that is hiding under the surface of this nation.

The incident you describe is scary. Imagine senseless, unfocused rage breaking out like that around the nation.

This is what I think some are failing to recognize, this isn’t about sympathizing with a terrorist, it’s about understanding that some of the issues he represented as driving him to the point of committing terrorism are driving many others into profound anger in their lives.

I don’t want us to look back one day and regret that we let things get so out of hand because we didn’t act to tamp down rage in this nation when we had the chance.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 9:55 pm

Thanks Patsy, that is exactly where I’ve been going with this.

The kneejerk reaction is to condemn him as crazy and don’t bother giving him any further attention.

What I’m saying is that giving attention to him and what happened isn’t for his sake, it’s for our sake. To understand and be able to prepare and hopefully take pre-emptive steps to prevent other such attacks.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 9:47 pm

Kalima and Nellie, I’m so sorry to hear that you’ve had to endure these tragedies.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 9:44 pm

Bito, you are a strong and remarkable person.

Simply put, some people are not.

Suffering is subjective. From our perspective, someone who had everything Stack had should have no reason to claim that he was suffering.

And yet, he did and it drove him insane.

I don’t think we would disagree that he flipped out. If so, he flipped out for reasons that you and I might say he shouldn’t have flipped out over but he did.

So our subjective opinion of what other people should not flip out over doesn’t affect whether or not they flip out over it.

Everyone has their breaking point. Most have one far more resilient than this man.

I’m just saying, we have to accept that if someone is going to go insane because a black man is president, whether we accept that as legitimate or not, to them it is de facto cause for them flipping out.

My thrust in this thread is to suggest that we need to understand why these things happen to prevent them.

If all we do is call insane people insane and unjustified, we end up in the same vulnerable position the IRS employees were in that building.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 9:40 pm

I would suggest that people can snap. I think everyone can agree that this guy snapped. He burned down his home with his wife and daughter inside, he flew his plane into a building to possibly kill innocent people.

Those are not the actions of reason.

One can be sane and rational…until one isn’t.

As for your point, I do think that many can relate to the concept of feeling so desperate and helpless at some point in their lives that terrifying thoughts including suicide might creep into view.

To give in to that or doing others harm is the line of sanity being crossed.

What is sanity but a recognition and appreciation of reality? Does a suicide bomber or flier appreciate the reality of what he’s doing and how it truly impacts the human beings he’s going to murder?

Does he think about the children who will live the rest of their lives without their father or mother? Is that what he wanted to accomplish, the cruel destruction of the lives of innocent adults and children? I don’t think so.

Mental illness is an epidemic in this nation, it is not respected for being the real affliction that it is…even insurance plans pay far less to treat mental illness than physical illness.

That is an issue that needs to be addressed but so does the inequity in this nation.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 9:25 pm

Much of what I was trying to express is that there is an atmosphere of futility and desperation that seems to be growing stronger around this nation.

People feel that they’re witnessing American Democracy and our standard of living declining rapidly before there eyes as the wealthy and corporations gain more power and riches.

I was trying to illustrate that such an atmosphere can push the least mentally stable over the edge to do horrible things. And it should push those of us who wish to make a better nation and world, into positive action.

My overall philosophy is that anyone who would choose to murder innocent human beings in an act of protest or symbolism, is mentally ill. They lack a modicum of empathy that non-sociopathic people have.

To a sane person, killing innocent people is always wrong. Planning an act that is likely to kill innocent people is the act of someone who is not rational.

If their feeling is that their life being ruined by others is wrong…so they will commit a terrorist act that will destroy the lives of others…they are mentally ill.

The people in the IRS building are innocent. Fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, these are human beings. And this man saw only the damage of his life as meaningful. That is sociopathic.

As for violence, in terms of taking back our democracy, I think it is a destructive path. In nations where that is the norm, it is one violent overthrow after another. And then, the leadership must rule with an iron fist and restrict the freedom of the people to protect themselves.

How would we feel if a Teabagger army attacked the White House and Obama?

We do have to get mad, mad as hell that we’re not going to take it anymore. Then we have to put our bodies out there where they can be seen.

Civil disobedience. Protests. And even marches. All we need are the numbers of people standing up and we can win. That’s the key though, standing up, not sitting at home.

Physical activism was never needed more than it is now, peaceful but unyielding physical activism.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 9:08 pm

In 1993, terrorists who hated America attempted to blow up the World Trade Center buildings in New York.

The law enforcement aspects were handled well, those involved were caught and convicted, except for one of the masterminds, Khalid Shaikh Mohamed, who would later mastermind the 9/11 attacks.

People were angry and incensed as was justified. The perpetrators were viewed as hateful enemies of America and once jailed, case closed as far as the public was concerned.

U.S. Intelligence did continue to track and investigate but there was no curiosity in the public to explore what this attack represented.

It was taken as an isolated incident.

Instead, had we as citizens asked, “Why were they motivated to do this? Are there more like them who would want to follow in their footsteps?”, perhaps in the subsequent 8 years we could have done more to weaken Al Qaeda’s characterization of America as hateful of Arabs and perhaps blunted or undermined 9/11.

Maybe 9/11 could have been prevented if we looked at things in a big picture instead of as isolated incidents.

With this situation, there are many differences. It is a lone lunatic. But it is not the first lone lunatic within the last year to commit an act of terrorism against Americans.

The assassination of Dr. George Tiller.

The shootings at Ft. Hood.

The shooting of a guard at the U.S. Holocaust Museum.

Not to mention the record number of death threats against Pres. Obama.

All of these can be seen as isolated incidents which could not be avoided.

Or they could all be regarded as mentally ill people driven by ideological hatred of government decisions and leadership.

Recognizing this is not trying to excuse or condone their actions. It’s making an observation that just as desperation has driven foreign terrorists, desperation appears to be driving domestic terrorists.

As mentioned below, what came out of Columbine was a focus on the motivation of the killers and a valuable solution to combat bullying. We will never know if any school shootings that might have taken place, didn’t, because of these steps. But maybe some kids or teachers are alive today because of it.

Likewise, if we were to explore the root causes behind people flipping out against the forces they feel cornered by, maybe there is some kind of positive social action we can take to diffuse some of this.

If we are instead quick to condemn and dismiss such people and more importantly, what they represent, if we discourage discussion of such people and what has driven them to do such horrific things, are we not missing the big picture of what is going on under the surface of this nation?

Are we missing an opportunity to explore how we might dissuade subsequent terrorists from crossing the line and taking such horrible actions?

Are we too focused on condemning today instead of preventing tomorrow?

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 8:37 pm

Honestly, I am fascinated by how so many here seem to equate sympathy and condoning terrorism with trying to understand why it happened.

Right after it happened, did you want to understand why we were attacked on 9/11? If so, I’m sure your doing so was not to condone the attack or express sympathy towards the terrorists.

Why some make that leap here, confuses me.

Whatever his reasons, it was not justified or should be condoned. I was just as interested in understanding the motivations for the 9/11 terrorists, Tim McVeigh and Ted Kaczcynski. Surely you and others who disagree with my interest to explore why this happened wouldn’t believe I was also justifying all of these terrorists too?

With all respect, either I did a poor job of expressing my interest in understanding why this happened while still condemning it or others here are too quick to mistakenly equate that with condoning the actions of a terrorist.

I find this absolutist sensibility, that we should

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 5:58 pm

I have a huge soft spot for Tucker. What he went through was the reality of American Capitalism rearing its head very visibly.

Capitalism is not a fair system, it is more the law of the jungle…where the lions can be bought off with campaign contributions.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 5:44 pm

Indeed, though all of us are horrified by what he did and can’t relate to the insanity that motivated it, we can relate to the moment of coming to the end of one’s pier.

I’m sure many here have had desperate times in their lives, some more recently than others, when they felt like they were at the end of their emotional rope. Out of work, home being foreclosed, can’t afford the bills, serious health issues, to the point of looking over the edge of that pier and fearing falling in and being swallowed by despair.

Thankfully, most folks have a support system of some kind and have the inner strength to endure. But some people don’t. At that point is where we lose the connection with such people, that is when they lose their minds and are capable of terrible things.

However, that doesn’t mean that we can’t seek to understand the contributing factors that made them jump. Maybe learning that will make us stronger and help us to prevent others from jumping.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 5:37 pm

As Cher said, there seems to be a confusion between the actions of trying to understand the motivations of someone and justifying them.

We tried to understand the motivations of the 9/11 terrorists after their attack but we were not trying to justify their actions, just understand and hope that doing so may give us insights to helping prevent a repeat.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 5:24 pm

Yes, my policy is to train people that if they are determined to commit a murder-suicide, start with yourself first then the rest will work itself out.

This is the thing about insanity, it is not something we can understand emotionally. We can’t relate to it, it’s a foreign thing.

Though people may at times imagine strangling their boss or smacking an annoying person of some kind, the concept of such brutal indifference towards another human being is difficult to fathom.

So, if we seek to understand what happens in the world around us, especially regarding people who do things that are so unimaginable to us, we have no other way to explore it but intellectually.

Or willingly ignore the ramifications which I worry could only come back to haunt us later.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 5:19 pm

A comparison is not automatically a straw man.

People often compare a bank robber getting 20 years in prison for stealing $5,000 with a white collar crook stealing millions and getting off the hook or probation.

That is not a straw man. It is pointing out how an individual committing a crime is treated far more harshly than a corporation committing a more profound crime.

How many people have died over the last year because the corporations have had the Senators and Congresspeople they own prevent it from passing? How are they not responsible for the thousands of deaths that resulted?

When they destroyed the economy, businesses, jobs, caused foreclosures and people being homeless, destroyed people’s nest eggs…all because of their greed, how is that not criminal behavior?

I was equating wanton destruction for ideological reasons between two parties who exhibited such and saying that both should be condemned as terrorists.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 5:11 pm

I saw this article as examining the issue of resentment of our failing government and democracy.

Recognizing how some respond in a destructive way, condemning it, then pivoting to say that addressing these same issues in a constructive way is the best path forward.

However one may discount what he expressed, the unpleasant truth is that it echoed what many across a wide political spectrum are expressing.

I think that it is most appropriate to view this in terms of how destructive people can be when feeling pushed into a corner and how the same feelings are best channeled into constructive action.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 5:00 pm

KQ, chill a bit, javaz was expressing her POV as you are yours and all deserve respect.

I don’t think your response is fair, javaz never condoned what he did, neither did I yet others keep ascribing this to anyone who dares consider what drove him to his act.

I appreciate your outrage at this man’s act and I share it.

Yet, for me and some others here, we can view this domestic terrorist as we did those who committed 9/11 by wanting to understand their motivations and honestly identifying those complaints that are valid…while still condemning the actions.

Though we all categorically condemn Al Qaeda, are their claims of responding to American intervention in the Middle East that has propped up tyrannical governments to assure oil, etc. falsehoods because we condemn them? Can we accept any validity to their resentment of America even though we can all agree that they are hateful terrorists?

Is it possible that the complaints about corporatism and failing democracy contributed to his becoming a terrorist?

If so, wouldn’t that raise bigger issues if many, possibly a majority of the public shared those complaints? Might more unstable people be driven in this direction?

Isn’t it legitimate to seek the truth here? Must one ignore any legit complaint because it is coming from a terrorist? What is to be gained by not seeking the truth?

This is where I and some others are coming from. We are seeking to explore what led up to this and that has engendered criticism of us which I feel is unfair.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 4:45 pm

Precisely! To try and understand something is not to condone it.

Here in Los Angeles is The Holocaust Museum, it is a wrenching but powerfully enlightening place to learn a lot about what transpired.

They and entities like the Simon Wiesenthal Center have invested a great deal of time, energy and resources investigating and studying one of the most horrific people and events in our history, seeking truths about what happened to share them…so it will happen “never again”.

Shunning a search for truth because it involves someone or something that should be condemned is counter-productive in trying to stop it from happening again.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 4:28 pm

I respect that, wasn’t calling you politically correct.

My point is that I think it is more important to understand this situation than to condemn him and just close the book.

If there are more potential Joe Stacks out there, isn’t it most constructive to understand what’s “creating” them and try to curb that if possible?

This is what a majority of Americans felt after 9/11 with foreign terrorists, we wanted to understand why they hated and defuse it. That is actually the best tool in preventing terrorism, getting to people before they become terrorists and trying to address what would otherwise push them into it.

Shouldn’t we apply the same strategy to domestic terrorism?

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 4:18 pm

You miss my point.

I connect Stack and the corporations to say, “If you are as outraged as you should be at Joe Stack committing an act of terror and destruction, you should be at least as outraged to consider how the corporations have also committed economic terrorism and yet they are rewarded for it.”

I know that it is risky to go down this path and, not by you of course, be attacked as a “nut” because some people need the simplicity of bad and good and can’t conceive of the fact that the ultimate truth of a situation can lie behind “bad” guys as well as “good” guys.

Truth doesn’t choose to reside behind bad or good people or events. It simply is where it is and sometimes, by being faithful to seeking it despite “bad” or “good”, one can be regarded negatively for not conforming to the shunning of exploration of truth behind “the bad”.

But you know me quite well, that will never deter me in seeking the truth of a situation.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 4:06 pm

Thanks Cher!

I do think that if we value the truth more than political correctness, we should not hesitate to recognize that even the most terrible people can reflect something that is true.

Truth is not the possession of any party, religion, race or individual. Truth stands on its own and can stand behind great human beings or the worst.

If one is dedicated to truth, one looks past the “taint” that others may connect with the truth due to its source.

Joe Stack was a mentally ill criminal. Period. Not a hero or a martyr.

Because he despised government as being controlled by corporations, should we then abandon that opinion because a mentally ill criminal shared it?

Should we refuse to consider what drove him to this act of terrorism and in turn set ourselves up as potential victims of the next Joe Stack?

Or should we consider what would drive him and others to commit such acts and what we might be able to do to prevent the next one?

What bewilders me is that after 9/11, all everyone could say is, “Why do they hate us?”. Then, when people tried to explain that the history of American government and corporate support of the exploitation and oppression of Arabs was at the root, people were offended. Still, there was a focus after that on trying to change the perception that was inspiring terrorism and hopefully get them to see us as “friends”.

This is the same situation. An engineer loses his mind and flies a plane into a building and I ask, “Why?” I want to understand what’s going on because if Americans who have lived mostly productive lives can become suicidal terrorists, that is a phenomenon that we should understand and undercut.

I don’t think it is wise to ignore the underlying causes of something like this because it is not thinking ahead, when there is something on a much larger scale or involving many collaborators, only then will people say “Something has to be done to prevent more of these attacks!” but of course, by then, it will be too late for the latest victims.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 3:55 pm

I don’t know how much clearer I could have been about this man NOT being a hero or a martyr. He was a mentally ill person who committed a terrorist act.

I never expressed any sentiment saying I or anyone should be connected to him or his actions.

Additionally, I don’t think the best way to fully understand a situation like this is to quickly dismiss it all as a tax evader nut and turn the page.

There are more and more events of domestic terrorism. We can simply regard it as a coincidence of unconnected isolated incidents that deserve no further consideration or we could seek to understand a pattern of events that are occurring in our society, what they may be related to and try to address the cause.

I’m not happy to say this but I think it’s more likely that we will see more and more such acts of domestic terrorism by unhinged individuals.

I certainly don’t want to be in a post office, the DMV or an IRS building when the next anti-government attack occurs.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 3:37 pm

The very sad and complicated story of Mercy the Cat

This is reflective of how the need to categorize people in the most simplistic and binary terms of “good” and “bad” is corrosive to our society.

Certainly, any well adjusted person would and should be outraged at someone torturing a small defenseless and trusting animal so cruelly.

However, instead of stampeding to hatred, one could at least try to consider the whole picture.

Only someone mentally ill could act in such a way, it goes against our nature as human beings. The man was mentally ill, perhaps temporarily, perhaps permanently.

The question then arises, what is the proper response by a society towards those who are mentally ill and act in harmful ways because of it? Should not the same people who recognize the injustice of an innocent animal being so savagely attacked recognize the injustice of the death of a human as being the appropriate sentence for that crime?

As horrible as this was, is it worthy of, in essence, capital punishment?

I completely understand the passions in such a situation and how natural it is to feel a kind of “good riddance” to this person but does that compliment us as human beings or as a society? To approve the death of any mentally ill people who harm animals? If that was a law, I think many of these same people would see the inequity.

There are a lot of mentally ill people out there. Some can be helped, some can’t. I think that the man who flew his plane into the IRS building was one of those who could have been helped, I don’t know enough about this person to say.

Mental illness is vastly under-treated in this nation and the results of it are evident in the continuing hostile and anti-social acts of emotionally desperate and deranged people.

We can recognize this situation and try to address it as the health condition it is or we can see it as a simple case of people are good or bad and we and other unsuspecting living things will continue to be terribly impacted by this.

» Posted By AdLib On February 18, 2010 @ 12:47 pm