Vox Populi – 8-3-2012

AdLib : Night pal!

KillgoreTrout : Ad I see we have passed our alloted time frame. You and KQ have a great weekend. Time to say goodnight!

AdLib : Looks like it’s about that time, to close up the Vox Populi bar for the night. Thanks KQ and KT for another great edition! Have a fantastic weekend!

AdLib : Sending positive thoughts for you on this house, KQ! Get some rest and have a great weekend!

KillgoreTrout : Yeah, a few of them. I was really into drugs when I lived in Boston, and I know for sure that a lot of them came from Whitey Bulger and his crew. Dorchester is a very unigue community. Like Hell’s Kitchen was in the 70s.

KQµårk 死神 : Well I gotta get some rest but send up good vibes that they accept our offer on this house in NC. Long story.

KillgoreTrout : Yeah, Boston used to be predominantly Irish and Italian. Now, there are people there from all over the world. There’s even a growing Russian population now.

AdLib : Wasn’t one of the characters in The Departed a Southie?

KillgoreTrout : I think it’s funny to see an actor who is not from there, try to imitate the dialect. Not easy to do. A lot of my friends were from Southie, Dorchester. Very, very Irish.

KQµårk 死神 : Actually I’ve noticed through the years from people moving around the country so much that people are starting to lose their accents.

KQµårk 死神 : They do talk funny in Boston. KT you were right on that one.

KillgoreTrout : KQ I moved to Boston when I got out of the service, and my buddies there thought I talked like a hick, being from Ohio and all. I always thought it was they who talked funny!

KQµårk 死神 : Absolutely KT Eastern Bergen and Essex counties was where about 90% of the mob was from.

KillgoreTrout : KQ, yep, and Jersey City. Not to mention the New York families.

KQµårk 死神 : When I went to my dad’s funeral my cousins from NJ couldn’t get over what a southern accent I had. I swear I just don’t notice it at all.

KQµårk 死神 : The funny part about he Soprano’s too is the area where Tony’s house is was upper middle class too with few Italians. The real mobsters came from towns further east near Newark.

KillgoreTrout : KQ, i can well imagine. Notorious rivals! But actually very much the same in a lot of ways.

KQµårk 死神 : In NJ it’s amazing how the little towns are so close but so different from one another. Even parts of our town were different. I lived on the north side of the town and most of the kids were Irish but the south side was Italian. It use to make for some good fights in school.

KillgoreTrout : KQ, the wedding scenes were shot in PA.

KQµårk 死神 : Ah gotcha KT I thought it was filmed in PA.

KillgoreTrout : Actually KQ the movie was filmed in PA and Ohio. Most of the steel mill scenes were in Ohio, were I grew up. The trailer Dinero and Walken shared was not far from where my wife and i lived. The bar too. I used to shoot pool there quite often. Probably too often. LOL!

AdLib : Doesn’t Romney just come off as that spoiled brat that wants everything that’s the best for himself? He wants the Presidency, not because he has any real goals or vision, he wants it like he wants an expensive toy.

KQµårk 死神 : He would sure be more humble KT. The town on the other side of us was Upper Montclair with millionaire’s mile. But they were a bunch of liberal elites.

AdLib : KQ – Fuhgetaboutit!

KQµårk 死神 : Ah western PA cool. My town is the town right next to Tony Soprano’s fictional house. It was the suburbs but still working class.

AdLib : And the amusing thing is, only now, when he is reaching for the highest public office in the land, is he in alien territory where he is challenged and has to connect with real people…two things completely foreign to him.

KillgoreTrout : KQ, maybe if he had, he might be a bit more human now. If he survived!

KillgoreTrout : Ad, I forgot. Man I would love to have seen him try to pull that shit in my hometown.

KQµårk 死神 : Romney would have never lasted in our public schools either. He would have to go to prep school for sure.

KillgoreTrout : My hometown was featured in The Deer Hunter. A steel town, all the way.

AdLib : KT – Romney WAS a bully in high school, remember, he bullied and cut the hair of a guy he decided was gay? And he used a stolen police uniform and badge to impersonate a cop to bully girls and others.

KQµårk 死神 : Sounds like my home town KT. About 50% Italian and the rest Irish and Eastern European.

AdLib : KQ – Yes! And might that be a trait of the coddled silver spooner? Born into wealth and position, their underachieving intellect not an obstacle to greater wealth and power, being surrounded by toadies and never challenged.

KQµårk 死神 : Like Bush did with 911 and Katrina Romney will melt down if he’s POTUS and faces a real crisis.

KillgoreTrout : If Romney had tried to be a bully in my high school, he would have gotten his elitist ass kicked. My town was very working class, and a mix of Irish, Italians, Russians and Poles.

KQµårk 死神 : He’s got Bush’s syndrome too. They are both just thin skinned bullies with a daddy complex. Actually Romney is even more thin skinned. Bush had the smirk and Romney has that little giggle when answering a question they don’t like.

KillgoreTrout : Oooooh! Wicked AdLib! But funny.

AdLib : KT – Too bad YouTube and video wasn’t around then, I bet we would have some very revealing scenes about the dumb, greedy bully Romney was and is.

AdLib : KT – A masochistic gerbil?

KillgoreTrout : When I think of Romney as high school aged, I would love to have seen him in my high school. I don’t think he would have done very well.

AdLib : So what if this is indeed the real Romney. A not-too-bright, spoiled brat who has lived in a bubble and just wants to be President out of an immature desire?

KQµårk 死神 : Exactly KT and that’s one reason he reminds me of the book smart Asian people I worked with. Don’t get me wrong some folks got it and were brilliant. But allot I worked with came from that rote style of education.

KillgoreTrout : What pet would want Romney as an owner? LOL!

AdLib : KT – Pets can be friendly with their masters too, it’s not a sign of great intelligence in Romney that he can get along with other idiot kids of wealthy parents.

KillgoreTrout : Good point Ad, Romney strikes me as someone who learned what he has learned, by rote. That is not intelligence, just memory.

KQµårk 死神 : Agreed AdLib he is just regurgitating the sales job he did after Romneycare passed.

KillgoreTrout : Romney is good at talking to people who like him, but when he meets a serious challenger, he stutters and stammers and loses his cool.

AdLib : KQ – But we know for a fact that “Romneycare” was not conceived of by him, it was in the works before he was elected Gov. and the architect of it helped with the ACA. ROmney just memorized things. Even dumb people can memorize things.

KQµårk 死神 : He probably beat up a nerd to take his SATs.

KQµårk 死神 : I see you guys are on the same page as me with the SATs.

AdLib : KQ – 1600 on his SAT? How much did it cost him to buy that?

KQµårk 死神 : I have not seen Romney show a lick of common sense AdLib. The only time I’ve heard him sound smart is when he lets out something good about Romneycare. He explains how that works quite well.

AdLib : KQ – Yep, it’s just another BS talking point for the Repub drones and a lame attempt to change the conversation but for Indies, it will come off nasty and offensive.

KillgoreTrout : KQ, knowing Romney, he probably paid some to take the test in his place.

KQµårk 死神 : He got 1600 on his SATs I heard.

KillgoreTrout : Take care Murph.

AdLib : Night Murph! A good day’s work, take a well deserved relaxing weekend and take care of that garden.

KQµårk 死神 : Again AdLib it preaches to the people that already hate Obama. Dunno if it can influence others, save in deep red states.

AdLib : Let’s try it from the opposite direction, what has Romney done that proves he is smart? In his campaign or in business?

MurphTheSurf3 : well folks….fading fast….a couple of hours in the garden, a long political meeting….and the Planet to top the day off…full day. Thanks and good night.

KQµårk 死神 : I don’t want to get to racially insensitive here but Romney reminds me of many Asian PhDs I worked with in industry. He’s got almost no common sense and is culturally inept. Maybe he’s got a touch of Aspergers or something.

KillgoreTrout : Pleasant dreams CL!

kesmarn : Good night all, and stay cool this weekend. Thanks, AL!

AdLib : Kes – Congrats to your Dad! Have a great birthday weekend with him!

AdLib : Have a good night’s sleep CL!

kesmarn : G’night, c’lady. I think I’ll call it a day, too. Celebrating the Dad’s 90th birthday this weekend. Cooking to do!

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- you are not the first to tell me to get out of Missouri but most of those were not of your political ilk.

KillgoreTrout : The GOP does not want a smart man as their president. Those who know the least, obey the best!

AdLib : KQ – I think ads like that boomerang, attacking Obama for transcripts after he’s proven himself as President for 4 years? That will rub people the wrong way, methinks.

choicelady : All – I am still suffering major jet lag (home at 3 am body clock time) so will bid everyone good night. Glad to see you all. Murph – GET OUT OF MO!!! You’ve given your best, now go work for someone who doesn’t make you nuts. You deserve that! Good night everyone – sweet dreams!

AdLib : CL – And that dynamic of everything being connected and affected by each other, the observer and the observed simultaneously influencing each other, sure does seem to fit in with the concept of God as the observer affecting our lives and His need for our attention.

KQµårk 死神 : I can’t believe CNN is running a SuperPAC add talking about where are Obama’s transcrips? thesis? and bringing up Ayers again.

KillgoreTrout : Well Ad, if anybody could pull it off, it is certainly you, my friend!

choicelady : AdLib – it’s scary but true that W and Mitt are very much alike except Willard would never go to Texas to “cut brush”, and W would be nowhere near a dressage horse.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL- I will look into your suggested reading. Sounds interesting. Charlemagne seems a bit late to me, but there were a number of expressions of Christianity (court vs country for example) at work.

KillgoreTrout : I love the Tao when it says, love the world as you love yourself, then you can be trusted to care for all things.!

AdLib : KT – I was thinking of writing an article about this, declaring that Romney is actually an idiot, just like our last Repub President who was the son of a wealthy man. Mitt and Bush have a lot in common.

kesmarn : AL, that combination of not-too-bright yet amazingly greedy worked for Dubya, unfortunately. Kinda worrisome.

choicelady : AdLib – I think most of us have quite seriously thought Romney was dumb. It’s NOT just a snotty blow off, I agree. He’s not smart. He’s ignorant. He has never had any reason to think for himself, and he has no intention of starting now.

KillgoreTrout : Ad, I’m glad you said it. I think a lot can be told just by looking closely at a person’s face. Romney does have a distinct dullness in his face. He doesn’t look like a wise person to me. I know that’s a bit out there, but this belief in the telling within a human face is very old indeed.

AdLib : KQ – Yep, he is absolutely Fredo in my book, in a scenario where there was no Michael and Fredo ingherited everything.

choicelady : ADLib – that IS the big “wow” factor in spooky action at a distance! The observer and observed, the connectedness of all things – amazing. And it’s quite possible that very early theologians understood these things but had no tools for the scientific end of their analysis. I bet they’d love to be here today to see that yeah – they “got it” just fine.

kesmarn : I hope he doesn’t get away with it, KQ. You’ve probably noticed that money-obsessed people can be incredibly cruel. And I sense that in him

KQµårk 死神 : AdLib indeed Romney is starting to look more like Fredo than Michael.

AdLib : Kes – My working theory is that Romney is far dumber than people realize. Like many kids of the wealthy, he has been able to pay people to be his brains and figure things out for him while he happily wears the title of CEO. I don’t think he is very bright and have seen no evidence to contradict that. It doesn’t take brains to make money when your parents are wealthy and you have all the doors opened for you.

KQµårk 死神 : Kes you hit the nail on the head the only thing Romney values is money. FFS he could have been more conservative with his investments and taxes because he knew he was running for POTUS since 2002 at least. But he still did all these exotic investments. Of course his sense of entitlement told himself that he was above showing his tax returns too. The worst part is he might just get away with it.

KillgoreTrout : Eastern thought says the object and the observer are one and the same.

choicelady : Murph – a much longer, harder slog but a great book nonetheless is “REscuing Paradise” by my friend and ally Rita Nakashima Brock and her co author whose name I never remember. Their thesis is that until Charlemagne, Christianity was largely about bringing paradise on earth, that dominating others – using the crucifixion as a ‘test’ of loyalty – was unknown. We were charged by scripture and history of Jesus ONLY to make the world the best place it could be, and we were not working to save our souls, use faith as a weapon, and make war on others. She makes a hugely wonderful historically grounded argement. It’s a hard book to read – very dense. Worth it though!

KillgoreTrout : Ad, is that you Heisenberg?

KQµårk 死神 : Exactly AdLib the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

kesmarn : I guess what I was implying was that I HOPED Romney couldn’t be that savvy, KQ. That would make him more dangerous than I’d estimated.

AdLib : That science recognizes just the observation of something can affect it, means that there is power that transcends the physical. In this simple way, I think science and spirituality are on the same page.

KillgoreTrout : CL I would agree with that completely. To me, spirituality is very, very human and not some great mystery. It’s simple kindness, generosity, compassion, love, magnanimity, togetherness, unity. Not mysterious at all.

KQµårk 死神 : Probably not kes but he had people to figure that out for him.

KQµårk 死神 : CL I don’t pretend to know the mathematics behind quantum mechanics at all but I can visualize the concepts. In fact when you look at ‘snow’ on tube TV you are really seeing quantum mechanics at work.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL- great paradigm.

kesmarn : And have you noticed that Romney measures every SINGLE situation in terms of money? England “makes nothing that people want to buy.” Israel “has a stronger economy” than Palestine. Etc., etc. When you take the dollar sign out of a conversation, he has nothing to talk about.

choicelady : Murph – I know OF the book but haven’t read it. Nothing ruins a good practice of spiritual growth faster than a bunch of people with an agenda. I do believe it’s summed in the bumper sticker: When the power of love is greater than the love of power, the world will know peace.

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- in case you are interested- «link»

choicelady : KT – but if you have religion without spirituality, it’s rules, pursed lip disapproval, and narrowness of heart. Spirituality without religion can be wonderful. Religion without spirituality cannot be wonderful.

kesmarn : KQ,do you think Romney was smart/devious enough to have come up with that himself?

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice. There is fine book- Pagans and Christians that explores the themes you laid out. When the people of “The Way” became official- free to practice, and state supported – institutionaliza tion came storming in. Roman law required that there be buildings, a recognizable creed/code/cult, and a formal leadership/pries thood…and the road sloped down hill.

KillgoreTrout : Cl, I agree. Religion and spirituality are not neccessarily dependent upon one another. They can coexist, but it is quite possible to have one without the other.

KQµårk 死神 : I should have really said insider knowledge that the investments were vastly under valued.

choicelady : KT – most Protestant denominations today are entirely open to the diversity of truth, to the paths all faith and spiritual practice give us. Individuals in those denominations can be thick as two bricks, but the denominations themselves are embracing a wide and diverse sense of inclusion and love for all people that is absolutely joyous and hopeful. And we do’t eat at chick-fil-a either.

KQµårk 死神 : One thing I see few people bring up is the fact that to have $100 million in his IRA Romney had to be insider trading. He not only had knowledge of investments that were super undervalued but he actually was able to undervalue the investments and manipulate incredible gains. For example when Bain took over a company he buys low knowing that he’s going to force the company to take huge loans to leverage itself and when the investment trick worked it grew exponentially.

kesmarn : I think when we’ve found that blueprint, KQ, we will have found God. But he won’t look anything like the RW fantasy. He will look a lot like the universe itself.

choicelady : KQ – I would not dispute intelligence everywhere. Finding ways to connect are beyond fascinating. I’m up there however with the man, a physicist, who set out to disprove quantum theory but wound up proving its accuracy. He’s peeved because today, 30 years later, he STILL doesn’t understand it. Most of us don’t, but it doesn’t make it any less fascinating.

KillgoreTrout : Murph, that’s in line with what the buddhists say. Respect all religion because these individual religions are all different pats to the same enlightenment. It’s quite rare to see some relions that actually understand this simple principle.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- re. Reid…we are on the same page.

choicelady : KT – I’d say religion and spirituality don’t reinforce each other, but FAITH and spirituality can and often do. Faith, IMHO, is non dogmatic, not rule bound, very fluid, and very open. Religion is rules. It’s why Sally and I have had this conversation – missionaries worked to convert indigenous peoples NOT because they feared those people were wrong but because they were terrified they were right. Spirtuality at its most basic level of reverence for nature and oneness of all things and all beings is far closer to God-as-all than any cathedral, rule, rite, and ritual could ever bring us. Early Christians were not so very different from indigenous spirtual practice of First Nations and other people. But institutionaliza tion killed the faith and left the charred remains of institutionalize d religion that has sucked the life blood out of Christianity and continues to do so today.

kesmarn : AL, Harry must have read your suggestion. I think it was a clever tactic. And not at all comparable to FOX and their “some say” approach — which they do over and over.

KQµårk 死神 : Agreed CL humans are a high level of this intelligence but I think all things have intelligence in the form of information. I mean an electron knows what to do for some reason because if it didn’t the universe would fall apart. One of the more interesting concepts in physics of late it the holographic principle where all information is ‘painted’ on an event horizon near a black hole. Actually Steven Hawking lost a bet because he said black holes devoured all information but it was stored on the event horizon after all. I think their is a blueprint for the universe somewhere we just have not figured out yet.

MurphTheSurf3 : KT- faith and spirituality and church can coexist, they can comingle and they can stand in isolation from each other. In my very progressive Episcopal experience faith/spirituali ty/church can find a home there. Interfaith is the name of our game.

KillgoreTrout : What’s funny CL, is they would never admit to recognizing polytheism. I’m sure they laugh at the ancient Greeks and Romans. To them, there is but one god…theirs!

kesmarn : CL, I’m glad you caught Lent Madness. The articles “campaigning” for one saint over another are hysterical. Full of trash talk about the opposition.

KillgoreTrout : Well said KQ.

MurphTheSurf3 : Kes- great and a General Convention website!

AdLib : Murph – I think it is a smartly calculated move by Reid…and one I’d suggested a little while back too! Since Romney absolutely won’t release his returns because they will show damaging things, including that he paid little or no tax in many years, Reid could safely make this accusation with the backup of one legit source. COuld Reid’s source be right? Yes. Is it likely Romney has paid little or no tax over at least some of the last 10 years and most probably 2010? Yes. So, though a journalist would want at least two corroborating sources, a single source was absolutely sufficient to use Romney’s secrecy against himself. Like Reid and the Obama team, I am wholly convinced that Romney’s 2010 return and others preceding it would show how anti-American Romney is when it comes to foreign investments and avoiding taxes. So, he will never be able to disprove what is likely the case. I am glad Reid did this and I reject comparisons of this to the outright and provably false lies the Romney campaign dishes daily.

KillgoreTrout : Murph, it’s about spirituality. Inter-faith achievements or discussions promote genuine spirituality. So amany religions who think they are the only true religion, know very little about spirituality. I say this all the time, as you’ve probably notice. Faith and spirituality do not depend upon one another.

MurphTheSurf3 : Thanks Kes.

kesmarn : Here ’tis: «link»

choicelady : kes – I’ve seen that Lent Madness! It’s hysterical! KT – when you have “my god is better than your god” you have just moved some 6000 years back in time to polytheism. The RW never seem to get that – they ACCEPT polytheism as a given. Yikes!

kesmarn : I’ll get it and be right back, Murph.

MurphTheSurf3 : Kes…got a line on those pastors?

KQµårk 死神 : Absolutely KT for me the established religions are far too basic when they explain their manifestations of a supreme being. Call it some kind of super networked intelligence but I don’t think humans can even start to explain it. I also don’t think the intelligence started the universe but developed as the multiverses developed. I mean if you believe in evolution life did not start out smart. It evolved into a few intelligent beings. To me if you think of time as pretty much infinite (including time before our universe started) anything can happen over a large enough timeframe.

MurphTheSurf3 : KT- religious traditions that honor diversity of faith experience usually end up in a state of greater peace and harmony within their own believing communities.

choicelady : KQ – it may be the collective intelligence of all humankind when focused on good that helps us move forward. It would be just fine if we could show from quantum mechanics that human consciousness IS “spooky action at a distance” and people really CAN focus their minds on issues. If you have ten dimensions, surely it’s possible one of them is focused human thought or intelligence and that if so, good things emit positive outcomes, and bad thoughts cause acne and hemmerhoids while collective bad thoughts creat heat waves, earthquakes, and all bad disasters. If you could prove that, it’d go a very long way to making people shape up!

kesmarn : Murph, there are a couple of Episcopalian pastors who have cooked up a game called Lent Madness…where they have sports-type brackets during lent and they pit saints against each other to compete for the final, golden halo. It’s hilarious. People get really emotional about it, in a tongue-in-cheek kinda way.

KillgoreTrout : Gee, Episcopalians can’t be worse than….dare I say it…Unitarians!

MurphTheSurf3 : Kes- that is my take on the Reid course of action. He’s got the goods and he’s got Mitt by his cojones.

AdLib : KQ – I don’t think any line can be drawn between Carter-Reagan and Obama-Romney. Carter was primarily hobbled by the hostage situation in Iran, he looked weak and helpless to many…later we found that the Reagan camp had been negotiating with the Iranians to keep the hostages until Reagan was inaugurated…a disgusting tale indeed. Reagan also had high likeability, had great charisma and was an actor…so he performed well during the campaign. Romney is none of those things, there is no hostage crisis and whatever might happen in foreign affairs, Obama has already proven himself as a strong CIC. Romney would need the charismatic power of Reagan and Obama would need to be seen as weak as Carter was seen (he wasn’t weak though) and I don’t see that unique dynamic having any chance of being replicated in this case.

KillgoreTrout : Murph, that’s the problem with religion, in general! Whose word is true? Who’s god is the one and only true god? It has division built right into it.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL…yes Episcopal….val uing reason and learning from experience….da ngerous I know.

kesmarn : I don’t think Reid would have spoken if he weren’t convinced his source was accurate. He’s not a risk-taken by nature, and he’d look a complete fool if Romney released those returns and proved him wrong. Which is why Romney won’t release them, of course.

KillgoreTrout : KQ you and I are basically on the same page in this. I tend to think there is some sort of “intelligence, ” at work, but some being. Einstein once said that the intelligence inherent in Nature far surpasse the combined intelligence of the entire human race. I tend to agree.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL-+- I need to learn more about the industrial cooperative concept.

choicelady : Murph – Episcopalian, huh? Nearly the devil’s spawn, you are. Most of my best friends are Episcopalian! Good on you, as Molly Ivins used to say.

MurphTheSurf3 : AD LIB OR ANYONE…did you all discuss Reid and the Bain informant? If so, what was the consensus? Is reid on solid ground? What has he got? Where is this thing going?

KQµårk 死神 : The only race in recent history that was a true comeback was the 1980 race with Reagan. Reagan did win the elections because of his convention and debate performances. While I know Romney is no Reagan he looks the part enough so if the media plays the expectations game and Romney does the infamous better than expected in the debates he can win.

choicelady : Murph – thank you! But my real interest is in re-industrializi ng and finding new ways to provide ownership to minimize capital demands AND eliminate irrational profit. In about a month I’m off to Spain, to Mondragon, the industrial cooperative in Basque country where they currently have ZERO unemployment and continue to flourish even in Spain and Europe’s horrid economy. This is worth bringing to the US. I’m in touch with the Steelworkers who have just signed a pact with Mondragon, and we will be working on projects when I get back. It’s very exciting!

KillgoreTrout : Absolutely CL. Hemp grows just about anywhere and is an extremely robust plant. Hell, it’s a weed for heaven’s sake. Becuase it grows so tall and is so thin, it produces far more per acre. Damn this country is stupid sometimes!

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- At one of my area meetings with a very mixed (i.e not many liberals/progres sives AT ALL) crowd, I mentioned that I was doing some work for my church….one of the group turned to me and said: “Murph! You go to Church?” The others in the group stood there slack jawed. When I told them I did and that I was an Episcopalian, they nodded their heads…..oh, one of THEM.

AdLib : KQ – I’m just extrapolating where things are today. No challenger to a sitting Pres has been behind at this point in recent times…if they had a prayer of winning. The more Romney is exposed, the more he blows it. This is a pattern, coupled with a majority seeing the Repubs as blocking a strong recovery, that I believe could lead to a Dem favored outcome across the board in Nov. I’m not saying they would take back the House but there sure could be coat tails for Obama that keep the Senate and help the Dems in The House gain seats. Is there really enthusiasm among indies for the GOP? I haven’t seen evidence of that.

KQµårk 死神 : To me the essence of life is in the very physics of the universe itself. The whole idea that a supreme being controls things is just not observed in nature. Einstein was wrong not only does god roll dice but it does not even know the outcome of rolling those dice. Nature is just a big roll of the dice where all manifestations of reality is just a bunch of big bell curves. The reason bad things happen is if they didn’t we would have no reference for good things. The closest philosophies are yin yang or karma.

KillgoreTrout : Olympic medals are not gifts. They should never be taxed the same way gifts are. Olympic medals are earned, the old fashioned way….hard, hard work!

choicelady : KT – totally agree about hemp. Also about using switchgrass or sugar beets on lousy land for ethanol and returning GOOD land exclusively to production of food. It would allow us to grow in strips, use fewer pesticides, and make for less tilling and thus emissions from tractors. We also need to help truckers become cleaner than their diesel – but the GOP think none of that matters, so…

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- the background helps me understand why you are so wise. Hat off and a deep bow.

KillgoreTrout : Murph, good point. The reality is that they don’t all live in zoned areas. Sinners and saints in the same space.

kesmarn : Yes, AL, and if the Bain story is false, Romney could easily demonstrate that. Put his money where his mouth is, so to speak.

choicelady : Murph – as all of us progressive faith types know, if you could prove Obama was a prophet from God, the RW would become idoloters. Admitting Obama or any of us are “godly” would make them explode in a frenzy of hysteria.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib If God in is in control then he/she/it is doing a pretty poor job of it. As Woody Allen said: “If there is a God, he’s an underachiever.”

AdLib : Murph – That is one convoluted thought process. “God will help us but Jesus, what’s taking so long?”

kesmarn : I wonder how much research has been done on uses for sunflower seeds, too. That’s the one thing that has grown like mad this summer in my flower bed!

choicelady : Murph – my brother is a biologist specializing in natural predators for agricultural pest control, and we grew up on the edge of the farmland in Illinois. The Farm Report was daily listening. I pay lots of attention to both farm and factory issues – they’re the backbone of our nation even now. Bain Capital will never make this country wealthy – only Mitt gets rich. We have to understand how things work and how people deal with what does and does not sustain us well in good times and in bad.

KillgoreTrout : kes, that would cause some major head explosions.

AdLib : Kes – Until this year, I have never heard this BS about the “outrage” over the false claim that Olympians have to pay tax on their medal. This is why I had a problem with Jon Stewart attacking Reid for only having one source, a Bain investor, on Romney’s not paying taxes. The Repubs just create absolute lies, Reid just uses one source and what he charges may be provably true.

KillgoreTrout : Industrial Hemp! I can’t believe the utter stupidity in keeping such a productive, inexpensive crop illegal. It doesn’t even get people high!

MurphTheSurf3 : KT- unless of course the bad things are happening to the people the zealots label as the bad ones.

kesmarn : The way they believe in magical thinking, Murph, it just might work.

MurphTheSurf3 : KES! I love it. Maybe some buttoms- “Vote Obama and It Will Rain” you know…subtle, sophisticated.

choicelady : KT – yup. Selectivity about “God’s will” is the hallmark of the confused and worried Christian.

AdLib : CL – The eternal flaw in that “God works in mysterious ways” is that the innocent such as animals and children are harmed. God would torture children and animals? Not in my book.

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice….you know your stuff….wow, am I impressed.

kesmarn : Murph, it would be so tempting to say: “The Deity is holding off on that rain until you offer him a sacrifice. He wants you to commit to voting for Obama…” Then stand back and wait.

KillgoreTrout : Ad, I think it’s the CIA who works in mysterious ways! Isn’t that what they’re supposed to do?

choicelady : Murph – they need to try whatever they can. Their entire planting lives may be requiring massive change. It may be winter is no longer your enemy – summer is. But they also need to start thinking of adopting perennial wheat (newly revived) and other crops that require low inputs so they use far less energy and give off far fewer emissions. Ethanol, unfortunately, emits ozone at ground level, so it’s better than petroleum based products, but not by a huge amount. Finding ways NOT to have to till and re-till is critical.

AdLib : …it’s futile to try and make anything better. And how can God be all good if he is responsible for destroying lives? I know, “God works in mysterious ways.” Instead, maybe God is scratching his head and saying, “The blindly devout work in mysterious ways.”

KillgoreTrout : CL, they seem to be pretty selective about god’s will and the free will he instilled in mankind.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib….Best line: “I am praying every day that God will send rain….though Lord knows why he is taking so long doing it.” Hard to discuss theology given that.

KQµårk 死神 : AdLib I wish I had the faith you did in the electorate. I see a very very tough race for Obama still let alone trying to take back Congress. As much as Romney is not coming across as an acceptable alternative the voters seem to be open to an alternative to Obama. Sure they like him but the economic numbers against Obama are still problematic.

kesmarn : I can’t believe how desperate the RW/Baggers are getting. The latest from Loony-Land is that the Olympic gold medalists are going to have to pay $9000 income tax on their medals and cash awards. Patently false. But they buy it and blame the Prez for it. Laughable.

KillgoreTrout : Religious zealots only credit god for the good things that happen. If it’s bad, then it’s man’s free will that is the cause.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL…the farmers here are planning to go with early spring planting and a midsummer harvest, then a late summer planting and a late fall harvest, the fields will be fallow for most of July and August. I am going to try a small experiment myself this fall.

choicelady : KT – no, they’d agree God caused the drought either as a punishment to (fill in the blanks) or a challenge to (them, or someone, or something.) It’s never about human stupidity and natural outcomes.

AdLib : KT – That’s the massive set of holes in such reasoning. If people need to believe that God controls everything, than no one causes anything so it

KillgoreTrout : Ad, that’s when the bible thumpers inevitably say. God doesn’t cause things to happen. They usually say right after they blame people for sinning.

choicelady : Murph – I’ll ask her is she wants to fly to Illinois and challenge him. But she’s a Californian, and once he found that out, he’d sneer at her. But we need people like Maggie EVERYWHERE!

AdLib : CL and Murph – You’ve got to make sure to take video of such a confrontation, it would be huge on YouTube.

AdLib : Murph – You can’t have this discussion with those of blind faith in God’s controlling everything but don’t you wish you could ask them to consider, isn’t God then responsible for the drought?

choicelady : Murph – MO has one of the better planting patterns, and yeah, God or no, sometimes you cannot do much about life and nature, but you CAN begin considering how to control CO2 and global warming to prevent these things from happening on even grander scales.

KillgoreTrout : Excellent Kes! LOL!

kesmarn : And maybe a suction machine to extract child support money from his wallet.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL….sounds good. Can I borrow her? I expect Walsh would try to shout her down. He is Chris Christie without the gov’s smarts.

choicelady : kes – I’m thinking more of rubber rooms and straps holding Walsh down to keep him from harming himself!

kesmarn : Where’a lobotomist when you need one?

KillgoreTrout : Kes, maybe Thorazine! Turn him into a real Zombie!

AdLib : Kes – Walsh needs to switch from decaf to electroshock therapy.

choicelady : Murph – I’d love to send a friend of mine who is 75, silver haired, and looks GOP but is anything but. She’s about 5′ tall, the perfect grandmother. She’d stand up and say to Walsh, “Young man, mind your manners! We pay your salary, and you are accountable to us, so straighten up and fly right! We ask the questions. YOU answer them – and to US who are your boss!!!” No one survives Maggie’s indignation!

MurphTheSurf3 : AdLib…I was at a meeting a few weeks back to discuss our water table/aquifer which thanks to the amount of stone in our ground is great for gathering and holding water….but my fellow “farmers” were discussing the weather and if I heard one more time that “it was all in God’s hands” I think I would have launched into a diatribe about false idols. Instead I went to the bar and had a beer. So dumb.

kesmarn : I saw video of a public event where an attendee told him he needed to switch to decaf… Maybe he needs to switch to Valium…?

AdLib : KT – Though we need to fight for Obama’s re-election as if it won’t be the case, I truly believe that Romney will continue to stumble badly as he has from the start and Obama will beat him decisively. He is damaged goods and most people just don’t like him. A poll today, 60% find Obama likeable, only 30% find Romney likeable.

KillgoreTrout : It’s too bad he shares the same name as one of favorite guitar players and song writer. The politician Walsh is synonamous with scumbag.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL- yes….I went to a meeting Walsh was holding, he even snarls at his supporters.

KillgoreTrout : I think it speaks volumes about Romney, when one of spokesman tell the press to kiss his ass.!

kesmarn : Oh God…Walsh!! It just all clicked with me. THAT Walsh. Oh, yeah, he’s horrible!

choicelady : Murph – I think constituents don’t like to be yelled at and insulted and absused by the guy whose salary they are paying.

KillgoreTrout : CL, I would have loved to see the Ohio Valley 200 years ago. I’ve seen paintings and wood carvings, but that’s not the same as the real thing.

kesmarn : There’s a place called Goll Woods here that is a small stand of original timber — only a few acres. Sad that people actually drive miles to see a bit of old forest.

AdLib : Murph – It is a terrible situation. This is what the experts have been saying for many years, will be the norm due to Climate Change. And the irony is, many of the states with the most people who deny Climate Change are the ones being hit hardest by it. How can they dispute it and work against addressing it now? But they will, dogma comes first, self-preservatio n comes second.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL…just meeting with people in Walsh’s district tells the tale. The talk like folks suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome.

KQµårk 死神 : I just don’t think so called swing voters are educated enough to even understand what the GOP is doing.

choicelady : KT and kes – I agree. Ohio used to be amazing, and the fact that as decimated as it is it is STILL more lush than many other states is pretty damned depressing.

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…polling in the district is very limited. Because it is a new district many of the metrics are not tested and the campaigns are not putting much money into it.

KillgoreTrout : Ad I still think the debates will be quite revealing….IF the moderators ask the right questions and don’t go all softball on us.

AdLib : KQ – But really, is there strong national sentiment that people want two more years of the Repubs blocking progress?

KQµårk 死神 : I think it’s will be hard enough to keep the Senate and the House is a very long shot.

kesmarn : I can imagine, CL. Earlier in the evening I was watching the documentary “The Big Uneasy” about Hurricane Katrina, and the amount of human interference in nature, combined with poorly engineered levees and then cover ups of same… unbelievable.

MurphTheSurf3 : THE DROUGHT…I have a large garden……LARG E….100 plants…After last years ulra wet spring and hot, hot summer I did raised beds so I could plant in early spring and I rigged up lines to put a burlap awning over sections of (or all of) the garden. I water at 9 PM each night (or get someone to do it for me like tonight) and water at the root level. Even so, the weeks of 100 plus has killed about 1/3 of the garden and overall production is low as flowering is restricted by hot nights. I expect to lose another 1/3 in the next two weeks. Still, my garden is in the top quartile of large home gardens in the state. Bad summer…but at least my state is not on fire like Inhoff’s Oklahoma…clima te change denier…hah.

KillgoreTrout : CL, yeah, I have to agree. It still is depressing to think of all the trees that have been sacrificed to urban sprawl. I grew up in the Ohio Valley, and it used to be one of the most lush landscapes in America.

AdLib : What do folks here think about the possibility of a Dem swing by Nov? As people see Romney and the GOP platform, the advertising nailing the Repubs for blocking America’s recovery and the public already aware the Repubs are doing so…not to mention, if Obama really builds a lead, the coat tail effect. Think it is a strong possibility?

KQµårk 死神 : Good good just been house hunting the past couple weeks.

choicelady : KT – and Ohio is verdant and lush compared to Kansas, Texas, western Nebraska, and on and on and on…

KillgoreTrout : KQ’s in da house!

AdLib : What up KQ?!

choicelady : KQ! How are you?

AdLib : Murph – Any polling in the Duckworth/Walsh district? Isn’t it a newly drawn district for him?

KillgoreTrout : CL, when I moved from Oregon to Ohio, I couldn’t believe the lack of trees. There’s some great old Oaks and such, but urban sprawl has wiped out way too many!

kesmarn : Hey, KQ!

KQµårk 死神 : Hey gang.

kesmarn : That’s an interesting thought,CL. There could be something in that.

AdLib : Murph – Absolutely and well done. We can’t cut off our nose to spite our face. The only way to hold a majority is to have more Dems than Repubs and whether or not Claire is in our corner on most issues, we need the “D”.

choicelady : Mruph – GREAT that you’re on Tammy’s team!!! Walsh is horrific. His district is just north of where I grew up with Henry Hyde who was freaking bad enough. Walsh is infintely WORSE.

choicelady : I really have to say as a flyover person these days that where you have open lands and fewer to no trees, you have drought. Where you have smaller fields and more trees – less drought. MANY farmers ripped out the Depression Era CCC shelter belts to get a few more acres. Wonder if they got permission from the feds? Naaaa. But where they’ve done that, there is persistent drought, dust storms, etc. There’s a correlation between venal/stupid and shit out of luck/drought in my humble opinion.

KillgoreTrout : I hope Ralph doesn’t live too far away!

MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…I will certainly do some work for Claire, but not Nix-one…just because Obama wants Claire back in DC (rather than the Tea Party menace who will be running against her)

KillgoreTrout : CL, HAHAHA! I thought one of you would get it!

AdLib : KT – Hope you’re aware that HTPLARH means Have To Pee Lazily At Ralph’s House.

kesmarn : Actually, CL, Indiana has had it much worse than we have. It looks as though the corn crop here will make it. Theirs is a total loss. Wonder why Pat Robertson isn’t blaming that on their lack of godliness… Oh wait, they’re mostly white Republicans…

choicelady : KT – acronym show off!

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice…I am already on Tammy’s Team…doing some writing, phone bank work, and organizational coaching. I will be very unhappy if Walsh gets returned – many really hate him.

AdLib : CL – Really would like to see Tammy bury Walsh.

KillgoreTrout : Be back, HTPLARH!

AdLib : Murph – I know it’s a challenge there between Right and less Right. Glad you have an easier road to hoe in IL.

choicelady : Murph – Illinois could use you for Duckworth!

choicelady : kes – I saw the water levels. Meander Reservoir looked good but only because, I suspect, it sucked all the water from elsewhere.

AdLib : CL – Seeing a bush in a campaign ad makes me angry.

MurphTheSurf3 : Our Missouri (Misery) Nixon is a DINO and McCaskill is not far from him. I am leaning more and more to doing my work in Illinois and Indiana.

KillgoreTrout : I’m going to Cape Cod this summer, like always, but I am not going until after Labor Day this year! It’s bound to be cooler by that time.

choicelady : AdLib – on boooo – but I have to admit, Murph, that seeing a “nixon” in a campaign still causes me to flinch.

kesmarn : I’d say “Y’all come, if the creek don’t rise,” CL, but the creek dried up long ago…

AdLib : A friend of a friend is a photographer and was heading out to get some shots of today’s anti-Chick protests. It is a little funny that a crappy fast food chain is the focus of a gay rights debate…that the Right has already lost.

choicelady : KT and kes – was BRIEFLY in your neck of the woods, so I am totally aware of how ugly the weather is. Sorry I could not stop to say howdy. Next time for sure.

kesmarn : Hey, Murph! I thought we didn’t have a Nixon to kick around anymore?

KillgoreTrout : Ad, El Pollo Loco is actual pretty good. But it’s been a while. That crazy chicken!

AdLib : Hey Murph! I could suggest a campaign slogan, Nixon’s the One. What do you think?

kesmarn : Loco for sure, AL. And, really, pollo too, when it comes right down to it.

KillgoreTrout : Kes, If I didn’t have AC. I would have shot myself in the head by now!

AdLib : Kes – Either that or as I call the supporters of Chick-Fil-A, El Pollo Loco.

choicelady : kes -none of this is big in Sacramento. Not even sure we HAVE Chick-fil-a. So we’re watching at a distance.

MurphTheSurf3 : Hi all….sorry to be so late….strategy session with the Nixon and McCaskill campaigns…long one.

kesmarn : Oh, KT. I am wilted. This has been one long hot summer, hasn’t it?

KillgoreTrout : Thanks CL!

KillgoreTrout : OH, hey kes. Like our smoldering temps? Autumn can’t come fast enough for me.

kesmarn : Hey, C’lady, KT, AdLib! Is everyone else out there at Church’s tonight?

choicelady : KT – that is GREAT!

AdLib : Hey Kes! We’re actually having a roast of Chickkk-Fil-A.

choicelady : kes! Hi!

KillgoreTrout : Junior homophobes…Chi cklets?

choicelady : Keep your eyes peeled – if a discussion I had this past weekend is any indication, the contraceptive flap with the Cat-o-licks is FAR from over and about to get nastier. ONLY those who believe in anti-sex have “morals”. The rest of us are merely accepting convenience. So here it is – Catholics and RW Christians have morals. The rest of us do not. There – that’s easy.

kesmarn : Why does this conversation taste like ChicKlan?

AdLib : CL – Sad but true, the militant Christian extremists suck up all the attention and are too often seen as the face of modern Christianity. What a travesty, these are the most unChristian, as in Jesus Christ, people.

KillgoreTrout : Man, this whole Chick thing has really brought out the people who think America should be governed by the bible and not the constitution. It’s amazing.

KillgoreTrout : OK Ad that made me laugh out loud!

AdLib : “It’s finger flippin’ good!”

KillgoreTrout : Ad, true dat!

choicelady : Oh hell – only negative faux Christianity counts anymore. The rest of us pagans don’t matter.I’m SICK of it!

KillgoreTrout : Good one CL! Mind if I borrow that one?

AdLib : KT – Because fried chicken in the South is sacred.

AdLib : CL – Very funny! ChicKKK-Fil-A!

KillgoreTrout : It’s quite ironic that when the porn film Deep Throat came out, community standards were the reason for banning the movie in many cities. So why does that not apply to chick, as fas as “Christians,” may see it?

choicelady : KT – well of course only white meat!

AdLib : KT: !

AdLib : CL – Exactly! Mayors and city councils regulate where liquor stores are, strip joints, even pharmacies, all based on community standards. Never heard the 1st brought up before. Stewart really missed the boat on this one. It’s rare, Maher does this far more often, railing against something when he’s so poorly informed about the situation.

KillgoreTrout : Chick and the Klan? White meat only?

choicelady : Chick-fil-a can say and do what it wants. Communities can do the same regarding C-F-A.

choicelady : ADLib – and their theme can be Chick-fil-a: KKKluck if you hate most everyone.

AdLib : CL – Maybe Chick-Fil-A should team up with the Klan. Cross promotion is all the rage nowadays.

KillgoreTrout : The case in Boston really brings it home to me. Chick wanted to open a store in North Boston, home of the historic Freedom Trail. Can you imagine a business that spends millions on groups that want to deny people their freedom, on the FREEDOM TRAIL?

choicelady : KT and AdLib – one other point here.Nowhere in our laws and Constitution is anyone guaranteed the “right” to have a business. It’s ALWAYS up to the communities on zoning and other standards. Granted fast food has been overly welcomed, but you violate community standards? You can be ejected and denied permits.

AdLib : KT – As I mentioned in a comment, the 1st only applies to Congress making laws to limit free speech. Why can’t all those people at HP sue them for censorship when they moderate and delete their posts? Because…it only applies to Congress.

choicelady : AdLib – oh the Klan is a very bad symbol since John Ashcroft welcomed them onto MO state property! Too many pro Chick-fil-a supporters would ALSO fight for the KKK!

KillgoreTrout : Ad, exactly. I think it comes down to community standards. Denying access is not the same as denying speech.

AdLib : CL –

AdLib : CL – All is well, had to motor home from my daughter’s B-Ball game. A nail biter, they won by one point in overtime!

choicelady : AdLib – I did, I was on, but you and Jenuwin just ignored me (sigh…)

KillgoreTrout : Ah, I get inundated with all the initials for things these days. It’s hard for an old hippy to keep track of!

AdLib : KT – What if the Klan wanted to open a store or restaurant? mayors would have no right but to support that? Nope.

AdLib : CL – Clear your cache then you should be able to go on the main page.

choicelady : Hi AdLib – how are you?

AdLib : I’m back! KT – BRB = Be Right Back.

choicelady : KT – If the business in question were any kind of endeavor the Right hates, they’d be ALL for barring it. But let it be “religious” and Holy War breaks out.

choicelady : Hey-got locked out of the major one, now I’m playing sidebar – hi to whoever is here!

KillgoreTrout : Calling all occupants? Is anybody there?

KillgoreTrout : BRB?

AdLib : BRB!

KillgoreTrout : Ad, I think mayors and city counsels have the right to approve or deny what sort of business opens shop in their communities.

AdLib : KT – It’s interesting how even well informed people misunderstand the 1st Amendment as encompassing everything in all cases.

Jenuwin : Hi Kilgore!

AdLib : CL, I think it’s a losing proposition to try and sell a bad product, especially when people already know they don’t like it.

KillgoreTrout : Hey CL and Jenuwine!

KillgoreTrout : Hey Ad. I just watched yesterday’s Daily Show and I have to agree with you, Stewart got it wrong about chick’s 1st amendment rights.

Jenuwin : Hi CL !

AdLib : What’s up KT?

AdLib : Hey CL! Doing well!

KillgoreTrout : OK Planeteers, SHOW ME YOUR RETURNS!

AdLib : The SuperPACs can buy all the commercials they can but if they’re advertising a bad tasting Romney Burger, people still won’t buy it.

choicelady : AdLib – that’s always been a question for me. Can all the $$$ in the universe sell a stinko product? I’m thinking not.

choicelady : Hey – AdLib AND Jenuwin – what a treat! Where is everyone else this fine Friday?

AdLib : And what’s additionally good news is that polls show a majority recognizes that the Repubs are blocking economic recovery, they blame the Repubs, not Obama for the slow improvement.

Jenuwin : Absolutely!

AdLib : I think we’ll see Romney stumbling all the way until Nov.

AdLib : So how about the Romney self destruction campaign? All defense, no of fence.

Jenuwin : Good!

AdLib : Hey Jenuwin! How are you this evening?

Jenuwin : Hello

AdLib : Who knew Harry Reid would hammer Romney so hard?

AdLib : Don’t forget to say “Hi!” or “Show Your Returns” when you arrive!

AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. See you then!