Vox Populi – 10-22-2010

bitohistory : His book publisher?

AdLib : Who cares what he’s doing?

AdLib : Ouch! Rumsfeld definitely puts the “Twit” in “Twitter”.

bitohistory : «link»

AdLib : Night bito and Khirad! Sleep well!

bitohistory : One more thing that I just know that you will want to see and join his FB

Khirad : Er, ‘think’. Yes, goodnight to both of you.

bitohistory : Good night AdLib, Kihrad. Have a good night. peace

Khirad : I’ll have to thing on that. Maybe resources for people to check on polls? I dunno, I think most here would know anyway. Oh well, we can maybe bring it up before then. For now though, good night to all!

AdLib : Well, this has been another great Vox Populi! Thanks bito and Khirad for making it so interesting and enlightening, along with all of our other members tonight! Have a great weekend, see you next Friday…four days before election day!

bitohistory : Any requests Mr. K?

bitohistory : noted, AdLib

AdLib : bito – You should also include in your post that we will have a live blog on Election Night.

bitohistory : That is a good one, Patsy.

AdLib : Great video Patsy, I’ve seen it and like it a lot!

PatsyT : Oh one last thing you…. will like it «link»

bitohistory : Will do boss, It’s nice to have it in one post.

Khirad : Yes, please do, Bito.

AdLib : Bito – Excellent idea! Let’s post it on Tuesday, a week before the election!

bitohistory : I may need to post another Political news desk for the last 10 days. Thoughts?

bitohistory : Thanks Patsy.

PatsyT : Bito I’ll post some info on them tomorrow… theres more then one

AdLib : Khirad – I too have an issue with the potential disconnect between people expressing anger in polls then really considering their choice when they vote. I think there has to be some discrepency there.

Khirad : Night Patsy.

bitohistory : Night Patsy. Rest well.

Khirad : I seriously have to wonder how much polling is registering general anger, but if that will translate to people actually voting for some of these extreme candidates.

bitohistory : Patsy has a progressive candidate in OC. Wonder how she is doing?

AdLib : Night Patsy, have a great weekend!

AdLib : The MSM just doesn’t want that story, they don’t want the Dems to do better than expected because the extremist TPs and Repubs are juicing up their ratings. Each report on Palin, O’Donnell, Miller, etc. means more ad money. What Dems bring in that kind of attention and controversy?

PatsyT : Hey guys my house is way to busy tonight … I’ll have to say good night… All the best to you

AdLib : It may be a bit of wishful thinking but with all the propaganda out there, the slanted polls and “news”, I think there could be a lot of surprise wins for Progressive causes and candidates in Nov.

bitohistory : Goodness, AdLib they must have made a mistake earlier. Muckety is all over the place on them. I will have to really look at them.

Khirad : I honestly don’t know.

AdLib : What do you think, will 19 pass?

AdLib : So in February, the DEA was still saying 60% and suddenly, two weeks before an election RAND says 3%? Triple bullshit.

AdLib : Here’s the link to that CNN story: «link»

AdLib : Here’s an article from Feb 2010: “Former Mexican official urges legalizing marijuana February 02, 2010|By Tom Evans, CNN The United States and Mexico should both legalize marijuana in an attempt to break the power of the Mexican drug cartels and end the spiraling violence south of the border, a former Mexican foreign minister said Tuesday. Jorge Castaneda, in an interview with CNN’s Christiane Amanpour, said marijuana “should be legalized in both countries,” and said it is ridiculous for Mexico to try to stop marijuana from entering the United States when it’s legally sold for medical purposes in California. Advertisement “The Drug Enforcement Administration says that 60 percent of the Mexican (drug) cartels’ profits come from marijuana. If we start with that, it’s a big chunk,” he added.

Khirad : The Beginner’s Guide to Nation Building. A Perfect stocking stuffer for your young budding Neo-Con at home!

Khirad : Something sounds fudged in those numbers. Where, does it come from then? And, does this not mean that we might as well ease penalties for it, since it clearly isn’t supporting terrorism, after all?

AdLib : Ambassador James Dobbins is the director of the International Security and Defense Policy Center within the RAND National Security Research Division. «link»

Khirad : James Dobbins «link»

AdLib : That is, it was acknowledged to be 60% of income for drug cartels and now RAND suddenly claims it’s 3%…just before the election. Double bullshit.

bitohistory : What is his first name? I want to plug him into “muckety”

AdLib : Exactly. And they are now claiming that, even though its acknowledged that BILLIONS are spent on marijuana, that suddenly, instead of it being 60%, it’s now suddenly only 3% and would have no impact. Bullshit!

Khirad : Dobbins frequently testifies before the National Security and Foreign Affairs subcommittee as the government’s witness, as it were.

bitohistory : Rand=Neo/Lib cons! War, nation building, debt and controlling debt.

AdLib : IOW, RAND is truly an ivory tower of elitists who fuck up the world with their confidently presented BS as probable outcomes. How often are they right about anything?

AdLib : And this: “In 2007, Dobbins led another RAND study, The Beginner’s Guide to Nation-Building, and its focus, too, was on how external actors might best provide soldiers, police, instruction on the organization of a national judiciary, a democratic political system, and an economic development plan. Host populations subject to these manipulations are apparently assumed to be in compliance with what outside actors propose. Neither the 2003 nor the 2007 study considers powerful nationalist feelings, which might oppose external control, or internal divisions, which make a social contract unlikely — meaningful variables worthy of study. Emphasis remained on the tasks that the occupying forces should seek to fulfill.” «link»

AdLib : Check this out: “In America’s Role in Nation-Building: From Germany to Iraq, the much ballyhooed team-written book he directed for RAND in 2003, Dobbins’ group studied seven cases of U.S. efforts at democratization to better understand the challenges of an eighth — Iraq. Nothing in the RAND study would have dissuaded Washington from invading Iraq. Indeed, its reasoning might have provided reassurance that a beefed-up and prolonged U.S. occupation of Iraq would eventually yield success.

Khirad : RAND generally does set foreign policy. Although, they can provide invaluable analysis. One must read their reports with a grain of salt. I’ve to date only read one monograph all the way through.

PatsyT : Things got stuck there for a minute

bitohistory : Rand gets mucho money from the DOD

AdLib : Isn’t it interesting that only when pot might be legalized, RAND and the government suddenly revise the estimate that it makes up 60% of income for gangs and drug cartels to a fraction of that? Liars.

bitohistory : Rand is dirty a long time.

PatsyT : All the Best ChoiceLady… nighty night

AdLib : Khirad – Didn’t Rand help justify going to war in Iraq?

bitohistory : Good night C’L. always great to see you and I thank you for all your good Works.

AdLib : Great to see you tonight at Vox, CL. Sleep well and have a relaxing weekend!

AdLib : CL – It’s about Atlantic City and CHicago, just as Prohibition came in and the Mafia grew. AC is portrayed as a corrupt, exploitative town, which it was back then. ANd Khirad, the pilot episode was directed by Martin Scorcese, it was very good indeed (he’s producing the series as well). Many parallels in it to today which is not a coincidence.

choicelady : And I must say good night to all, lovely party, thank you. I have to rise to scoop doggie poop at the fund raiser. I need to get my sleep if I’m to be out in the rain picking up leavings. Now I think about it – how is this different from my other job? Ah, well – sleep tight all. Talk with you soon.

Khirad : Exactly, regardless the numbers, those are secondary issues, and RAND certainly isn’t above scrutiny.

choicelady : bito – it’s certainly not new, but in the book the author notes it is definitely on the increase. AdLib – SUPER find! I think skewing data to “prove” legalization is one of those areas TIPA cannot address well since Brookings IS on many other issues, a good source and a good rebuttal to other lies.

Khirad : Oh yeah, well, my bad, Libertarians are definitely for legalization. Still, they are at odds with a free market answer to everything.

bitohistory : CL, do you think that planting drugs on minorities is new. I thought that was SOP in the 60’s around Chicago.

PatsyT : They just don’t care at all, how they make their money?

AdLib : Part of an editorial on this by NORML:<br /> “Mexican Drug Cartels Make Bulk of Cash from Pot in U.S.? Opinion by NORML (October 12, 2010) in Society / Drug Law <br /> A report released today by the RAND Drug Policy Research Center undercuts the longstanding federal government claim that Mexican drug gangs are reaping the bulk of their profits from the exportation of marijuana to the United States. States RAND, “The claim that 60 percent of Mexican drug trafficking organizations gross drug export revenues comes from marijuana is not credible.” And just who was the source of this ‘not credible’ statistic? In this case, full credit must go to the nation’s top anti-drug office, the Office of National Drug Control Policy — aka the Drug Czar’s office. So who should we believe? On the one hand we have the federal government, which consistently lies about marijuana to further their own agenda. On the other hand, we have RAND, which also isn’t above making its own specious claims to further their own agenda — which in this case seems to be opposing California’s Prop. 19. Ultimately, however, the dueling statistics don’t really matter. Regardless of whether Mexican cartels are reaping 60 percent of their profits from pot or 16 percent, the fundamental principle remains the same: the criminal prohibition of marijuana fuels an underground, unregulated, black market economy that empowers criminal entrepreneurs and jeopardizes the public’s — and the marijuana consumer’s — safety.

choicelady : Khirad – I understood some libertarian groups support 19. Not that I actually know who.

Khirad : Oh yeah, the prison lobbies are definitely against this. I still have yet to hear a Randist able to reconcile that one in their ideology (or anything else, for that matter).

choicelady : bito – I’m not following your question? patsy – yes, the prison lobby is indeed against legalization. There is a group, LEAP – Law Enforcement AGainst Prohibition made up of some significant police people. But I hear you can’t speak for 19 among your peers if you’re a cop. Too bad since many of them WANT it legalized. They have spoken privately to our clergy but not at all publicly.

Khirad : I saw a forum on C-Span where black scholars were pointing out that all the outrage over incarceration in the 70s has quadrupled without much notice.

PatsyT : AdLib … the king is a wimp … you would have to be the Queen.. she is the one who must be obeyed !

PatsyT : CL the prison lobby must be against it then.

bitohistory : Do you think that is is new, CL?

choicelady : PAtsy and AdLib – sorry not to get Boardwalk Empire. It sounds fascinating.

Khirad : My favorite was the pilot, where he laughed at the Volstead Act and those fools in congress. Sometimes I wonder if besides corporate lobbies, if the Cartels in Mexico have their own… I mean, they might as well. It’s a boon to them.

bitohistory : Patsy, :lol;

AdLib : bito – In a fantasy, I would love to be the King of Hearts and proclaim, “Off with their Talking Heads!” We don’t need these people and they are fucking up our democracy.

choicelady : AdLib – the Brooking Institute study last week said it was much less, but my understanding is that you are correct. Even if it’s not a dent in the Mexican cartels, it would END most of the drug wars in our cities and stop putting kids of color into prison over stuff white kids walk away from. Read “The New Jim Crow” about how cops plant drugs routinely on Black kids just to get them convicted.

PatsyT : On what Bito … crack ?

Khirad : I forgot to mention, that when you skew the numbers with people under 55, the % of people who have ever tried pot are even higher than 41%.

bitohistory : David Brooks is on spewing his “money doesn’t matter” BS. What a piece of…

AdLib : Patsy – Yes, I wrote a post that started by saying how Boardwalk Empire is very appropriate to consider when looking at the Tea Party movement. It also underlines the foolishness and the support of crime that prohibitions create. There would not have been a powerful mafia in the country without prohibition. And one way to smack down the Mexican drug cartels would be to legalize marijuana. They get over 70% of their income (as do gangs in the US) from pot.

choicelady : Patsy – we don’t have HBO, so I miss a lot of stuff. What’s it about?

Khirad : Yes, though I still need to catch up on last week’s.

PatsyT : Is – opps

PatsyT : I anyone watching that HBO series Boardwalk Empire ?

AdLib : CL – “You inhaled but never lit?” – Just a joke! That’s one prop that I ignore the polls on, I don’t think they will prove to be accurate.

choicelady : OK – next moral conundrum. Do we try to ban junk food if we’ve legalized pot? Is taking away corn chips a form of torture? Deprivation anyway? Oh the decisions one must make over these burning moral issues!!!!

AdLib : CL – Imagine the boost to the tax revenues, over a billion, and the snack food and pizza industries!

choicelady : Hi Jen – come on in! The party’s getting really rolling, and it’s nice to see you online!

Khirad : As with many things like pot, and gay marriage, it’s only a matter of time. With pot, I might’ve thought the same of the Baby Boomers, but I really think that both will happen in my lifetime. I have no doubts of that.

AdLib : Whoops, here’s the link for this Time article: «link»

choicelady : Khirad – I think the most serious side effect of pot legalization will be weight gain.

AdLib : “Researchers found that 42% of people surveyed in the U.S. had tried marijuana at least once” «link» com/time/health/ article/0,8599,1 821697,00.html#i xzz139NZoDMc

bitohistory : More time and Money, Khirad. Why Not tax it and bring in money instead of stopping “reefer madness”?

Khirad : Good to hear CL, that my personal experience bears out. I thought it was a ridiculous scare tactic, but wondered if they could pull out some weird stat (like they were stoned AND drinking). The DV angle was just laughable on its face though. Right, I’m chillin’ and I’m gonna beat my GF for not getting me my munchies. Sure…

AdLib : Khirad – “As shown in recent polls conducted by Gallup and CBS News, 44 percent of all Americans believe that marijuana should be legalized — a whopping number compared to the roughly 25 percent that were in favor of legalization in the ’90s.” «link»

choicelady : AdLib. You inhaled but never lit? How dull! PPIC is the one polling outfit I trust because they say when they can’t predict accurately. They DO use cell phones and have done so since last year, so those numbers I trust more. Support unfortunately has fallen from 48 to 44% – BUT they don’t know how many people are dissembling. (Euphamism for lying.)

PatsyT : Man o man my house is busy tonight!

AdLib : CL – Very interesting and amusing! BTW, I totally inhaled but never lit up. Another huge factor is that polling rarely includes cell phone users and I can guarantee you that many voting for 19 use only cell phones.

Khirad : What were the last numbers on the percentage of the population that has tried pot, and the numbers that used it in the last month, or of those whom are regular weekly users? I forget the exact numbers, but one thing was clear. With our current laws, we are a nation of hypocrites and it would just be regulating a behavior which can’t be stopped anyhow. Not unless you think the War on Drugs just needs to be given yet more time…

choicelady : Khirad – yes. That’s all they have. I did DV victim intervention. Everyone at the agency knew – you NEVER get DV when the perp is stoned on weed. Anything else, yes. REal violence comes from alcohol and other drugs. But pot – NEVER. We all secretly wanted to push it on batterers! A court-madated treatment!

AdLib : Khirad – That is very true, the RW puts their anti-gay and anti-immigrant bills on ballots to bring out their voters, Dems should do the same with marijuana legalization and other Progressive issues.

AdLib : CL – So true! The thing is, as industries rise and employment begins to favor the supply instead of demand, the people will be in a stronger position to fight for unions, better pay and benefits. While employment is low, the powerful will do as they’re doing now, cry that they can’t hire when there are regulations and Minimum Wages to be paid.

Khirad : I hop it is?

choicelady : AdLib – PPIC has pretty reliable polling, but that factor they admit can have a distoring effect. I was interviewed by a Brazilian paper for our organization’s support of 19, and the last but predictable question was – have I ever smoked or used marijuana. Despite my formidable position in life (cough) I said yes, I’d tried it and DID inhale, and did not use it again. But I laughed through the whole question since it was SO funny. The reporter was shocked we supported 19 even though were weren’t the “toke up,Dudes” kinds of people.

Khirad : They should get a pot prop on every ballot as a wedge issue for young progressives. We have one here, but just for medicinal. They warn it’s just a way to get the foot in the door for legalization. Well, can’t argue with them there! I hop it IS!

choicelady : Q – can’t mix drinks. Only pour wine. That’s why I’m in the kitchen cooking.

AdLib : bito – The numbers on 19 are all over the map, some show it ahead others behind, there’s no consistency. I think it has a great shot at passing and will help bring out the youth and Progressive vote to elect Brown and Boxer.

Khirad : I meant he was arguing that we thought it was a cure all, rather than a significant 60% cut in their profits.

choicelady : AdLib – billions here at home would do nothing if we don’t secure working people’s rights. It would build another ring of Robber Barons as it did in the 1890s. So we have to push the technology AND the right for working people to share in the wealth THEY helped to create. Tagging wages to the lowest standard of living in the US – or world – is insane since it does eliminate the very market upon which production and all sales depend. Telling middle class people to consume less on lower wages is a recipe for the rich falling into a pit. No consumption, no profits, no fat wallets for the Robber Barons.

Khirad : Some dupe on a thread ‘over there’ was trodding out the straw man that it would be a cure all regarding cartels and then went on to warn of us the consequences of health costs and domestic violence of all things from legalizing pot. WTF? Is this all they have?

AdLib : Need…melon/lim e martini…must have…

bitohistory : What are the Numbers on 19? I thought it was well ahead?

Questinia : This oughta get the guests flowing!

AdLib : CL and Khirad – I’ve heard that the polling on 19 is somewhat worthless. People who may be voting for it may tell polls that they’re not because they don’t want to be seen as a drug lover. But in the voting booth, a different story. Could indeed be the Bradley effect in reverse.

Questinia : Anyone a maestro at mixing drinks?

Questinia : I just had one…. they’re tops.

choicelady : Khirad – don’t give up on 19 quite yet. The drop is not precipitous. The faith community for rational drug policy is having Op Eds soon, and despite having strips torn off me this morning by one man who finally shut up, most people are thoughtfully assessing two questions – does current policy WORK? Would rational control be better as it was with alcohol. We shall hope good sense prevails.

AdLib : Q, I’m drooling, please pour me a Ketel/melon/lime martini! Please???

AdLib : CL – I know of The Water Engine, it is quite sobering. SO true, the energy corps don’t want inexpensive and plentiful energy out there, they killed the electric car and public transportation in the past, they would lose their grip on us if we had our own power generators. That’s what we should have though, it would be a massive boon to our economy and invention. Imagine all those hundreds of billions spent on oil suddenly staying in our economy. WHat would that do?

Questinia : Again

Questinia : I need a bong.

choicelady : ADLib, you pour the drinks, I’ll heat the hors d’oevres.

Khirad : By the way, though Prop 19 is sinking in the polls from what I saw, if the guests are cool we can go to the patio…

PatsyT : Ooo CL I’ll have to look that one up

Questinia : Mother needs to drink while showing guests around!

Questinia : Adlib may I have a Ketel with melon juice and a sprig of lime done up as a martini?

choicelady : Hello guests. Come in and rest by the fire. Q. will show you around. You are most welcome.

Questinia : TY Patsy.

Questinia : You have a lovely view of the blogging orchard from this window, just pull the drapes…

PatsyT : I’ll take your Jackets and put them upstairs

AdLib : Yes Q, I imagine they might like a tour of the bar and Hors d’œuvres first.

choicelady : AdLib – I looked it up after our last talk, and it’s amazing stuff. One thing I really fear is that existing law tend to benefit the powerful at the expense of the new and growing companies. We need to keep watch on things such as Bloom Energy and help fight for their right NOT to be taken over. Or worse. Anyone ever see David Mamet’s creepy play, “The Water Engine”?

Questinia : This is the hallway of the house

Khirad : Yes, go to the foyer and invite them in, as long as they don’t do tea. We might have a nice tisane blend, though.

PatsyT : Tag you are it!

bitohistory : My tagging works!

PatsyT : Silly guests tricks are for kids

AdLib : We appreciate our guests and participants equally!

Questinia : May I show the guests around?

Khirad : Ah, now four… don’t go!

Khirad : There were six guests, now five, don’t spook them!

AdLib : 5 guests! The more you say hi to them, the more they hang out! Welcome guests!!!

PatsyT : Hi Guests!

PatsyT : Bito, I go there and often

Questinia : Four guests!

AdLib : CL – Folks here know that I champion Bloom Energy’s box as one of those huge game changers. More technologies for clean and plentiful energy are so obviously the way to go, along with products that can utilize them.

Questinia : Hiya Patsy Adlib Khirad and two guests!

Questinia : Echoes of popcorn in my mind.

PatsyT : Hi Q !!

choicelady : Questinia – I’m so glad you said something. I hear it too, but given my paranoia, I shut up. No white coat for me, thanks!

PatsyT : AdLib, yes I think they wanted to shush him up kinda quick like

AdLib : The Quintessential Q! How do you do?

choicelady : AdLib – that is very true! These types of jobs give great lift to the standard of living with huge multiplier effects. I would say that I think we have to revive some basic manufacturing in capital and durable consumer goods, too. They are not less expensive made in China anymore, and they are stable parts of a health economic base. They also CAN BE “greened” – Canada did it with their Nanticoke steel plant (c. 1980s technology but amazing even then) and we could fairly easily convert dirty manufacturing to clean with vastly better motive power that is really “green”.

AdLib : Patsy – Yes, I saw your post on this which reminded me to post it now. Have you seen how Denninger was dismissed as a disgruntled fool by Chris Matthews and others on MSNBC? It doesn’t matter who the messenger is or how legit, the MSM and their corporations seem bent on undercutting any message that doesn’t wrk for them.

Questinia : et al….

Questinia : Hi Bito!

bitohistory : Hello Q!

bitohistory : I thought the TP article on the Kock brothers was great, seems to have opened up a few eyes

Questinia : A tennis game with lobs 500 feet high!

Khirad : Popcorn, perfect, yes, that’s the sound! That, or a tennis match without the (audible) grunts.

Questinia : One kernel at a time!

Questinia : Who’s making that annoyingly slow popcorn?!

choicelady : You know the sad thing – hardly anyone knows who Denninger is, so his denunciation is virtually meaningless. Movements that get co-opted tend to roll right over the founders.

AdLib : CL – Obama has it right that green jobs are the salvation of our economy but the Repubs have done their best to undermine that. Those and medical technologies can be the engines that drive our nation back on top but the Repubs and corps don’t want that, they are very happy with how things are right now. Big profits, lower overhead, depressed wages and desperation making the “little people” toady to them.

bitohistory : Yeah, you did Patsy, I read it. That’s the problem no one goes to OT anymore, it too busy.

PatsyT : HA I love how he says – Tea Party my ass!

choicelady : AdLib – I’d seen reference to the denunciation so thank you for the more careful explanation and the link.

Khirad : Yes, they had Denninger on one of the shows Cenk was subbing for, I believe.

PatsyT : AdLib I put something about that in Time out OT yesterday , I think

choicelady : Sorry – I mean AdLib – someone rang the doorbell, and I got confused! Back now.

Khirad : This just popped into my head reading CL’s mention of What’s the Matter with Kansas. Remember the umbrage taken by the “cling to guns and God” comment? Welllll…

AdLib : Have you seen this? “A former CEO and now a financial blogger, Karl Denninger, who is credited with helping to found the Tea Party movement, just sent a letter to the Tea Party denouncing it, and outting it as little more than a tool of the very corporate financial industry it originally was founded to attack. Denninger wrote: “Tea Party my ass. This was nothing other than the Republican Party stealing the anger of a population that was fed up with the Republican Party’s own theft of their tax money at gunpoint to bail out the robbers of Wall Street and fraudulently redirecting it back toward electing the very people who stole all the ****ing money!” «link»

choicelady : CL – no, the gargoyles are Canadian and wouldn’t have him.

choicelady : And another thing, Patsy – unless and until we revive manufacturing as Obama and other smart folks want, even the Dems don’t have decent solutions for creating jobs when the stimulus has gone unspent. CA still has about 1/3 or more left. “What’s the Matter with Kansas” noted that when the Dems fail to deliver on jobs, the middle class will go Right and Religious on ya every time.

AdLib : CL – Was one of the gargoyles Cheney?

PatsyT : The ‘I want my country back-wards’ crowd has been a little quiet

AdLib : Patsy – The CLub For Growth is just a name, they are the Reagan folks and the Next Gen of them. Their agenda is narrow, enrich the rich today. That’s it. Remember Cheney saying that he decided what reality would be, that’s the mindset of these vermin. They think they can rob everyone and rationalize that things will all be better because of it.

choicelady : Patsy – the Club for Growth honestly believes that they can sell lots of foreign made cheap goods to keep the masses pacified to make modest profits while they themselves make boodles in paper trading. They seem to have forgotten both 1929 and 2008 – very short memories. And they just don’t care.

AdLib : bito – I say no, the US won’t cut defense spending in a meaningful way for political reasons and that dooms our economy and social programs. You know what they’re all afraid of, cut military spending then comes a terrorist attack and Obama is blamed for it because he cur military spending. Obama should do it anyway but he would be crucified by the Repubs and MSM if a terrorist attack followed that.

choicelady : AdLib – the political cartoon in the Toronto paper is of gargoyles who comment on issues. They had one of them ask the other “what is supply side” with a final frame of Reagan drooling. Never was summed up more accurately!

PatsyT : CL you would think that could see it as a pocket book issue.. They (middle class) spend $$$ and grow the economy .. Why isn’t the club for growth for that?

Khirad : They point to Cameron all the time, but as a TORY, he’s going through the British defense budget and marking things to slash! Can you imagine it? Repubs still can’t answer WHAT they would cut, because most of the waste would cut into MIC’s profits.

AdLib : CL – Remember, the Reagan crowd are the ones who came up with Supply Side so it fits in perfectly with their skewed philosophy that the wealthy getting wealthier at the expense of the majority getting poorer, is their theory for a great economy.

choicelady : AdLib – with the cost of living NOT going down enough, this call to end the minimum wage is falling very flat. I do think Americans get that far without straining their tiny minds. The Dems are starting to call it out for what it is, and it’s helping.

Khirad : Jon is definitely the Will Rogers of my generation. If the rally can get out the youth vote, every little bit helps. As much as the Repubs like to talk about the youth abandoning him over jobs, the under 30s are still behind him.

choicelady : What galls me, Patsy, is that even so-called Progressives actually don’t get the significance of a solid middle class, especially one that does blue collar work. They are snobs, and they cannot see that without that, their own work is very fragile.

AdLib : Remember, they’re calling for an end to the Minimum Wage…with an argument trying to pit people against each other. Raese said that the MW is keeping people from being hired. IOW, two people could be hired for $4/hr instead of one at $8. So your enemy is your fellow citizen whose underpaid and working for minimum wage. It’s evil.

bitohistory : Here is a question to toss about. All of the European countries are cutting their defense budgets by 7-10%. Will the US match or will the R’s demand an increase to take up the slack?

PatsyT : They do not want illegals (but they do they just say they don’t) they want Americans to work like the illegal and smile while they pick that produce!

choicelady : AdLib – we’ve known that for years, but it’s shocking to have it confirmed by someone from inside the circle. The desire to eradicate the middle class really IS killing the goose for the golden egg. You are SO correct – without a solid middle class, you have a weak and poor nation. Barnet and Mueller called it out in 1973 in their book “Global Reach” with a chapter called “The Latin Americanization of the United States”. It all came true.

AdLib : Khirad – Sad that none of them are around but Jon Stewart sure is quite a valuable man to have around. I truly think that in the future, he will be seen as an invaluable and irreplaceable Will Rogers in American history but with far more impact than Rogers. What do you think, the Rally to Restore Sanity could rally a lot more Dem voters to the polls just in time…to vote for sane candidates (read Dems).

Khirad : Maybe there’s truth that they wanted to move from a consumer-based economy to a neo-feudal one. But, how is this even possible when they ship production overseas?

PatsyT : AdLib, even on the Ed show he is saying that they are trying to create their own third world work force right here in the states

choicelady : Patsy – I have two cats both smarter than I. One is a Maine Coon cat and very funny. The other is a very cranky short hair. Both are overly intelligent. Reagan missed that crowd – smart animals. They’re all brighter than he was.

PatsyT : Three doggies!

AdLib : I was told back in the 80’s, by a friend of a low level guy who was in with the Reagan crowd, that the ultimate goal was to get rid of the middle class and have a nation of wealthy and lower class. They would have all the power and wealth and a cheap, unempowered labor force to generate greater revenues for them. IMO, this is insane because once you take the spending power away from the majority of Americans, our economy will collapse. Consumer spending accounts for about 70% of the economy. So, the word was, kill the golden goose, grab all you can and let the chips fall where they may.

choicelady : Patsy – what is Napoleon? Whatever he is, I bet he’s GREAT! How many do you have?

Khirad : She focused on Mexico-US relations at Cornell. But, clearly she just doesn’t “get it” like Kelly and his guadruple layer fence.

choicelady : bito – I used to teach for Cornell’s industrial and labor relations program BUT did it for union people in western NY. I can’t decide if I’m elitist or to be pitied.

PatsyT : CL one of our doggies is from a rescue and he is the one most like Napoleon

bitohistory : Cornell? Oh an Ivy League skool!!

Khirad : Molly Ivins and Bill Hicks and George Carlin would be great about now.

choicelady : bito – indeed! She’d have had a field day with the baggers!

Khirad : I wasn’t sure about the GED thing or not, before you said that. Whereas, she has a degree from Cornell.

choicelady : Patsy – sorry about the dogs. Tomorrow I’m volunteering at a fund raiser for emergency pet rescue during crises. I’m on poop patrol (my choice) for 2 hours. BUT they will have Great Pyrenees and Goldens available for adoption. I get to pet, too.

AdLib : siphon

bitohistory : CL. I miss Molly. Wouldn’t it be fun to read her about the Tbaggers.

AdLib : The wealthy and corporate “bosses” are the ones campaigning against education and intelligence. They do indeed want money taken from education because it serves two purposes, keeping the public dumbed down and more money for them to syphon off.

PatsyT : Which think tank was responsible for starting all of this?

choicelady : When Reagan ratified utter selfishness was when we began to disintegrate as a nation.

bitohistory : Khirad, He quit skool and joined the Jarines. I think he got his GED there.

Khirad : Bottom line: it’s cynically about feeding into resentment and the preservation of a pliable, gullible voter.

choicelady : AdLib – I think you nailed it. The dumbing of America is deliberate. After the student and Black movements of the 60s and 70s the ruling class determined all we could stand was good little worker bees, NOT intelligent people who questioned authority. And, sadly, those questioning authority today are not all that bright either.

AdLib : CL – That selfishness was also behind many seniors opposing Single Payer. “I’ve got mine, you get lost!”

AdLib : See, here’s the big ball of dung these beetles are rolling…being educated is elitist…but we need our schools to be better at teaching our kids. WHY? Then they will become hated elitists! Do people want educated children? Really? Who might learn to reason and oppose their parent’s opinions, religious beliefs and ignorance?

choicelady : Khirad = remember what Molly Ivins said of people like Kelly? If his IQ were any lower, we’d have to water him.

Khirad : Jesse Kelly is the case study of someone wanting to get rid of federal funding for schools, right Bito? After all, he thinks he knows all he needs to know, and as he said tonight, he’s sick of Giffords in Congress and all their “studies” and “reading” of bills.

choicelady : bito – I was utterly shocked when I heard some old geezer say he did not want to pay anymore for schools because his kids were grown. It was in the 80s, was the opening salvo of the “pay for me only” mentality. We can see from the fire in Tennessee what comes of THAT way of doing business!

PatsyT : CL busy house- Dogs are driving me nuts -nothing new

AdLib : CL –

choicelady : AdLib – learning to deal with your given circumstances is a good thing. If you glow in the dark, you light the night. Thank you for sharing.

bitohistory : Wait, CL, here’s an idea! Let;s get rid of all the federal funding for schools! That’ll work.

AdLib : Khirad…so the real question is, how dumb are human beings who willingly harm themselves by tattoos, pollution, global warming, re-electing plutocrat Republicans, etc.? Can human society ultimately survive in the long run or will our willing ignorance of the true consequences of our actions be our undoing?

choicelady : Hi Patsy – I see you’re on. How are you?

PatsyT : Hi Choicelady !

choicelady : Khirad – that would explain a lot. Nothin’ good ever came from Meth.

choicelady : AdLib – WTF indeed. WHEN did it start being good to be dumb? I grew up in the “education is everything” era, and back in the 60s THE thing in the Black communities where I worked was learning anything and everything to get control over your world. Suddenly learning was “white” and white people didn’t want it either. I do NOT understand that.

AdLib : CL – I am a man of many talents and toxic chemicals.

Khirad : Also, some include lead, cadmium, and arsenic. I would think these are more the “meth-lab” types of inks, though.

AdLib : CL – Thanks! I know, it’s just this celebration of ignorance and the MSM legitimizing the branding of education and being informed as “elitist”. WTF?

choicelady : AdLib the human/fish thermometer! It’s a gift you give the world.

bitohistory : C’Lady, I have no idea

AdLib : CL – I eat so much seafood, you can tell the temperature by how red my eyes get.

choicelady : AdLib – if ever there someone NOT elitist, it’s you. Reading papers is NOT, I repeat, NOT elitist.

bitohistory : I will ask my Doc next time about it, or one of the research people

AdLib : CL – Kind of an anti-intellectua l theme to that story. Though, when I used to read hard copy newspapers (before the LA Times became a comic book) I imagined the ink on my fingers could poison me for being an “elitist” who read papers.

choicelady : bito – SERIOUSLY?????? Weed killer in ink??? Is it possible to BE any more stupid than we are? I thought the height of dumb is lutefisk, the Norwegian “delicacy” of fish soaked in lye. But we are putting PCBs into food we give fish in farms, now weedkiller in ink. For crying out loud – WHY??????

bitohistory : The studies are pointing to man-made chemicals, are they using weed killer for ink?

choicelady : AdLib – nice to see you, too!

choicelady : Khirad – great sci fi story about people across the globe dying save for primitive groups in remote areas. Source of the cancers and other horrific things – ink. Non literate people lived. Literate people died. You are on to something there.

AdLib : Hey CL! Nice to see you!

AdLib : Khirad – Interesting. So typical inks are proven not to be carcinogens or just haven’t been proven to be?

choicelady : Hi everyone! I tuned in just to read AdLib icking about Sarah in the nude. I’d join you in that. If Levi is to be believed, she’s anorexic, so yeah – ICK.

PatsyT : No tats for me !! Happy to be tat free !

bitohistory : No, but it seems weird to me, AdLib.

Khirad : Some inks can be carcinogens, I think. These are more the homemade or “tribal” type, though. I don’t know if that’s what was being got at there, though.

AdLib : Am I the only one who would turn away in disgust at an image of Palin in the nude? Eck!

AdLib : bito – Really? Has there been any studies about a connection of tats and blood cancer?

bitohistory : Patsy

AdLib : BTW, too bad there’s no such thing as justice being enforced in our federal government anymore, looks like Wikileaks has documented outright war crimes. Ain’t it great that there’s no price to be paid for those little “youthful indiscretions” anymore? And I saw that Blackwater’s murderers are getting off the hook too.

bitohistory : I have this real freak about Tats. when I go to the CC, my pod deals with blood cancers, I see about 3-5 people with tats all over them.

PatsyT : Pics of Palin in the nude?

AdLib : “Asses of Evil”

PatsyT : LOL! “Shock and Aw”

PatsyT : Or Look Busy

AdLib : Or, “Shock and Aw yeah!”

AdLib : Patsy – How about just above their asses, “Bunker Buster!”

PatsyT : AdLib, that one just above his ass

AdLib : Wait, make it, “Mission Accomplished, bitch!”

AdLib : Tattoo: “Mission Accomplished!”

PatsyT : What will the tattoos say?

Khirad : Yes! Survivor meets Guantanamo!

PatsyT : Must See T V !

AdLib : Khirad – How about turning it into a reality show. A competition between innocent prisoners at Guantanamo and the winner gets to tattoo Bush or Cheney with a design of their choice?

Khirad : Cheney would be a block gang leader, no doubt.

PatsyT : Those prisons have brush to clear don’t they?

Khirad : I’m imagining W with cornrolls as we speak thugging it up.

AdLib : They have new “anchors” on MSNBC, one is an oh-so-smarmy Ken doll who asks some of the most inane and plainly conservative leaning questions of talking heads, can’t stand that guy.

PatsyT : Can we tattoo them?

PatsyT : ROTFLOL ! Khirad !!

bitohistory : Hey, I have email!! And a bunch to look at. Be right back.

Khirad : Now, a MSNBC prison show with Bush and Cheney, I’d watch that.

PatsyT : AdLib My kids are frightened of those tattoos !! I have to remember to turn off Rachel immediately on Fridays

Khirad : Yes, the mistake about that was it was the Green candidate. It would have been far more appropriate for the Repub.

AdLib : Patsy – Yep, I heard about that, just joking! Carly, Meg, Toomey, Paladino…Rich Whitey again and again.

Khirad : Israel came up, boy was that fun. Kelly was trying to out pro-Israel a Jew. I really wanted to slap him on that. But, his smirk was as intolerable throughout.

PatsyT : Yes AdLib that is their platform !!Rich Whitey ! «link»

bitohistory : How was the Brats smirk tonight? We may have slap him.

AdLib : Patsy – I thought Rich Whitey was running in most every race for the Repubs?

AdLib : As has been said, how can MSNBC be taken completely seriously as a news network with that prison crap on every Friday night?

PatsyT : Good Evening Khirad !

Khirad : Giffords, that überbrat Kelly, and the Stoltz guy again, for comedy.

bitohistory : And Hello, Khirad.

PatsyT : Hey I do like the story about “Rich Whitey” on the ballot !

bitohistory : Khirad, Who was on the debate tonight? I forgot to watch.

AdLib : Yep, O’Donnell will be signed by Fox on Nov. 3rd for at least double what anti-Muslim Juan Williams was paid.

PatsyT : Bito you tell em! I have had it with that BS.. I think it must be easier to buy poll results so you can build up the illusion that repbs are ahead and there by make it look like an expected result when they manipulate the votes

bitohistory : I don’t think O’Donell cares if she loses. She will now be a millionaire.

AdLib : Hey Khirad, great to see ya!

AdLib : You can say “fuck” here, bito, especially when it comes to the MSM and MSNBC…I’m really fed up with MSNBC, can barely watch it now. There’s so little real news right now, it’s become a daily exercise of repeating and discussing with talking heads, “The Dems are facing a landslide defeat!” My ass!

Khirad : I missed the Rachel thing, watching the KUAZ debate. Good to know MSNBC still has its priorities and gets right into the weekend prison shows rather than replaying as it does M-Th. Doing that on Friday? Absurd! They’ve got a ratings juggernaut to get to! Hiya all.

bitohistory : I heard the whole seceret money thing was scoring for the Dems. the indies don’t like it by 70%

AdLib : Yes, Bill Clinton, Obama, Biden all storming the nation…meanwhi le the Repubs have Palin, Gingrich and Beck… it is such a clear choice between aggressive idiocy/hatred and competence/visio n. It’s just very sad that our country is populated with so many ignorant people so easily scammed.

bitohistory : Fu*k MSM and MSNBC, they were saying the R’s were ahead in races when the spread was 2 and the error margin was 5. BS

AdLib : Patsy – I do think the Repubs will have stronger turnout than int 2008, when their morale was so low. And I accept that many moronic indies will vote Repub in a kneejerk way because unicorns are not plentiful under Obama….but when people really consider what a Senate with O’Donnell, Angle, Toomey, Miller, Buck, etc. will be like…they seem to be sobering up and getting energized to vote Dem.

PatsyT : I love how Bill Clinton is going over so big all over the country … And What is George Bush doing? and Cheney?

AdLib : I did hear there was a shortage of gasoline and emails in France due to the strikes.

PatsyT : AdLib that is what I have been feeling all along… What do the repubs have? Nothing nothing to offer at all!

bitohistory : Might be the riots in France.

PatsyT : Bito I saw that too while making dinner… He has had a big day and his voice is still hanging in there!

AdLib : I’m not accepting the MSM’s pronouncement that Dems are staying home, even the early voting shows they’re not.

bitohistory : I saw part of the Las Vegas speech on Rachel. He does give a good stump speech! He had the crowd fired up–Ready to go.

PatsyT : Move it due to the response

PatsyT : Thanks Adlib, I’ll check it out Hey they had to more it due to the response !

AdLib : bito – It’s a Republican conspiracy! Or witchcraft!

PatsyT : Wish I could help bito, I am a novice with computer. Thank goodness for my kids

AdLib : I used to have a GMX bike when I was a kid.

AdLib : Didn’t find video but check out this LA Times story on it: «link» 37,500 people attended, that ain’t hay!

bitohistory : Hold on I’ll email GMX….Oh wait, I don’t have email

AdLib : Patsy – I don’t know, hold on, I’ll check…

AdLib : We can threaten GMX with a devastating parody on them if they don’t get it running soon.

PatsyT : I missed the LA speech are there any links to it?

PatsyT : Bito there is more … maybe tomorrow I will put up a few more.. I left out some of the greats

bitohistory : I don’t think so, AdLib. It is the sever. GMX is based in Europe so who knows?

AdLib : My internal clock is fast.

PatsyT : My calendar is fast!

AdLib : Hey bito! Sorry to hear about your email problem, can I be of any help in troubleshooting?

bitohistory : Hey Patsy, I have some nice music to listen to tomorrow, thanks to you.

AdLib : The Fridays seem to be coming faster each week! Or is my watch fast?

PatsyT : Glad it’s Friday

AdLib : Hey Patsy! How are you tonight?

PatsyT : Hi there!

AdLib : Vox Populi is about to start. Don’t forget to say hi when you arrive!

AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat on the week’s events, begins right here at 7:00 PM PDT. Hope to see you then!