Vox Populi, our weekly live chat about the week’s events, begins tonight at 7:00pm PDT. Hope to see you then!
AdLib4 hours ago
Hey TW!
AdLib2 hours ago
Good evening Ad how’s your week been?
twilson117
2 hours ago
Enjoyed McCarthy getting the ax.
AdLib2 hours ago
Yes that was nice to see, now if Gatez would, fall along with MTG and handsey Boebert we have trifactia
twilson117
2 hours ago
Do you think Jordan can win the speakership now that he has Trump’s endorsement?
AdLib2 hours ago
You know I’m not sure about that. I’m thinking they might want sckelize(sp)
twilson117
2 hours ago
The House is in a bit of a mess don’t you think?
twilson117
2 hours ago
Scalise may have a better shot at it…the guy who bragged he was “David Duke without the baggage”. A klansman or a traitor? Sounds like a Repub race. BTW, years ago, I met Scalise but very briefly.
AdLib2 hours ago
Scalise is a bit of a nut case. But man things are a mess on the Repug
twilson117
2 hours ago
side of the House
twilson117
2 hours ago
I think the ones who have the power, if they have the spines, are the dozen or so Repubs who won in districts Biden won. They have to know that if Jordan’s elected and killing Ukraine aid, Biden impeachment, and Trump empowerment is pushed forward, they lose their seats.
AdLib2 hours ago
Scalise is a bigot and a MAGA liar. Jordan is just worse than him. Both are nuts and nihilists.
AdLib2 hours ago
I think they lose their seats in any scenario but to your point they could be the ones to bring calm to the House that is if they have the balls to do so.
twilson117
2 hours ago
I think you’ve summed it up the Repug side of the House they all seem to be in the bigot class.
twilson117
2 hours ago
Exactly, that’s my point. I think many of them lose in 2024 (including Santos) but out of self-preservation, I would hope they would refuse to vote for Jordan and his madness in the possibility that they could win again in 2024.
AdLib2 hours ago
I want to see how they spin Trump spilling Nuke Sub information to the Aussie that was talking with Tump
twilson117
2 hours ago
They descended over the years to the lowest common denominator to keep their base, bigotry, hate, lies and fear. Not one of them has an actual, thought out policy. Nothing, no ideas to help people. There is zero reason for any halfway smart and decent person to vote for them which is why they depend more each year on voter suppression and now, overthrowing elections.
AdLib2 hours ago
Hey how is CL doing have you spoken with her lately??
twilson117
2 hours ago
You’re correct on that it’s not about making the government work. It’s all about filling their campaign coffers and just going along to get along.
twilson117
2 hours ago
Murph is in the House, Hey Murph
twilson117
2 hours ago
They’ll just parrot Trump who’s using the most idiotic excuse that he relies on most, “It’s fake news, just Democrats trying to interfere in the election!” That’s all he’s got, no defense just like all the criminal and civil cases he’s trying to get thrown out or stalled, he has no defense because he’s guilty.
AdLib2 hours ago
Hey Murph!
AdLib2 hours ago
hello Ad and TW…..good to be with you.
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
Ad if it’s just fake news then why is talking about it all the time?
twilson117
2 hours ago
CL is doing fine, she still needs to get a small procedure done then she can order glasses, she says her vision is batter now but without the new glasses, she doesn’t know yet how much better.
AdLib2 hours ago
Where has Choice Lady been….do we know?
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
Ah…thanks Ad.
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
Question…why is Trump not being brought up on charges in re. the exposing the nuclear triad as he has done?
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
Ad well give her my best, and tell her I’m really enjoying Democracy in Chains it’s eye opening.
twilson117
2 hours ago
TW – Yes, there is no reason for Repubs to get elected than purely having the power and money that comes with the office. They offer nothing to the people…aside from the 1% who will get tax cuts while the 99% lose SS, Medicare, and funding to help the vulnerable.
AdLib2 hours ago
Ad look those Aholes need to keep their little hands off my SS check.
twilson117
2 hours ago
Murph – Yep, it’s hard for CL to read along the way things are now, hopefully in about 3 weeks, she’ll be back!
AdLib2 hours ago
Murph – Don’t forget, the documents case is in the hands of Trump stooge, Loose Cannon. So adding the submarine breach as a charge would probably give her additional reasons to stall the prosecution she’s already stalling. Plus, it surely will be used by Smoth to make the case of a pattern of betrayal of US secrets.
AdLib2 hours ago
Murph how are things in your neck of the woods? Any fall out from the Trump lovers about him spilling nuclear sub secretes or are they saying it’s all made up.
twilson117
2 hours ago
TW and Murph, I will pass along your inquiries and thoughtfulness to CL.
AdLib2 hours ago
TW – If Jordan became Speaker, I would expect him to at least create a committee to deliver plans to cut SS and Medicare, if not try to pass such cuts. Of course, The Senate and Biden would kill that bill dead.
AdLib2 hours ago
Murph – Do you think Kunce will beat Hawley?
AdLib2 hours ago
I am just reading along right now.
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
TW – I think that Trump’s endorsement of Jordan could doom him, there only need to be 5 of the Biden-winning-district Repubs out of like 18, to just vote “Present” to stop him.
AdLib2 hours ago
Ad…..is there no way to reshape how that charge could be handled……as an act of outright treason.
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
Ad I believe Jordan knows better than to mess with SS. He doesn’t want a phone calls and visits from mad Senior Citizens. We can be a bit much to handle. 
twilson117
2 hours ago
Ad….Kunce is working very hard to create a grass roots infrastructure….he will do all he can….and the spoiler “Democratic” candidate is not getting any traction so I think he gets the nomination and then its head to head with Hawley.
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
Ad how is Hawley’s support? He seems like folks would see through his duplicity.
twilson117
2 hours ago
Murph – I absolutely think it could, it sounds like the DoJ has emails and/or texts where that classified info was passed from the Aussie billionaire to 40-80 other people and their emails to others. But it’s harder to prove in a court case when the original criminal breach was oral than the cases they have now where the physical document was in his hands and possession after he was in office.
AdLib2 hours ago
TW….things in my neck of the woods? There is little outspoken support for Trump but that support is the ground on which so many here stand……I think that there is an awareness that he is not a good person or a good leader BUT at least he is not a Democrat.
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
Or should I say demon-crat.
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
TW – Yes but the way for Jordan and other Repubs to hide from taking the blame of moving forward with cutting SS and Medicare, is to create a committee and skew it so that they throw up their hands and say, “The experts we brought in to advise us told us we have to cut SS and Medicare or they’ll go broke, don’t bame us!”
AdLib2 hours ago
blame
AdLib2 hours ago
Murph but there his documents he cand do anything he wants with them, then the scene shifts to him being tossed into cell and audience hears the clacking of the cell door.
twilson117
2 hours ago
Murph – That’s good to hear. Kunce tweets a graphic showing him essentially tied with Hawley. If that holds, considering the overperformance of Dems even in Red states, I think he could eek it out.
AdLib2 hours ago
Ad I blame repugs for everything.
twilson117
2 hours ago
Ad and TW…..It seems to me that this sub scandal is on the same level as Trumps support for an armed insurrection that aimed to bring down the legislative branch.
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
Ad haven’t read much news today nor been watching any, but I believe the sub issue is a real problem for him.
twilson117
2 hours ago
TW – Hawley’s support is weak, his favorable in polling, last time I saw it, was very low. I don’t know that he can improve much, it’s up to Kunce to grow his support and I think he’s capable of doing that. In any case, if Kunce has a chance, it will still be a very close race.
AdLib2 hours ago
I have been to Hawley events……he is a snake….and comes across as an oily, sneaky, know it all, opportunist…..if one is willing to look at him objectively.
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
Murph – Whether we call it tribalism or cultism, there’s no way to change the minds or votes of these MAGA types. But…what you’re saying is encouraging. If their support for Trump weakens, some may just not go to the polls, being unmotivated.
AdLib2 hours ago
Ad that analysis sounds solid to me, it seems like folks are willing to accept dumbass foolishness from Reps but want their Senators to far more serious. But, then there is Ted Curz who is the exception to the rule.
twilson117
2 hours ago
TW – I blame Repubs for almost everything, they are clearly responsible for the worst of all that’s going on but sometimes, Dems mess up a little. Like the way Biden is fumbling building the extra border wall.
AdLib2 hours ago
Cruz is one of a group of radical Republicans……
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
Ad….cultic tribalism…..works for me.
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
Cruz needs to go back to the rattlesnake pit he slithered out from oh I forgot he got kicked out that. Well one can dream.
twilson117
2 hours ago
Murph – I think the sub story is a stake through the heart of Trump’s defense on the documents case and a trusty club to beat him over the head with (by Dems and Biden) on how he is too untrustworthy and a betrayer of America and its democracy. It should be used alongside 1/6 as prrof he is unfit to be president and that needs to be hammered endlessly.
AdLib2 hours ago
While I am ranting….let me ask…..why are the Trump scion who have raked in millions and billions not on the grill……..Hunter Biden is fair game……and the real criminal enterprise family is skating away? I do not get it.
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
TW – Depending on how big the Blue Wave/Tsunami is in 2024, and I am confident it will be one of those or the other, I think Cruz, Rick Scott, and Hawley, one or more, could potentially lose.
AdLib2 hours ago
Murph good question. I don’t know what the Senate isn’t saying something about him and what he did with the Sub information.
twilson117
2 hours ago
Ad…I like your approach to the sub story as a part of the debate but I am still not happy that the matter is not being pursued legally…
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
Ad….let’s not forget the Senator who has sabotage the entire promotion process by blockading it.
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
Is it possible Jack Smith is writing up another charge as we are speaking??
twilson117
2 hours ago
Murph Tuberville what and idiot, I mean really what a damn idiot.
twilson117
2 hours ago
And, TW, a bombastically self righteous fool….
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
Murph let me say it again first class with multiple gold stars idiot.
twilson117
2 hours ago
Murph – Dems in Congress have been far to hands off Jared, Mnuchin, Ivanka, etc. on the bribes they all received for compromising US secrets for our enemies (yes, I see Russia, China, AND Saudi Arabia as enemies of the US). My guess is with all the energy aimed at Trump himself, they were being “nice” and letting the crimes of the others go so they wouodn’t look like they were “being fascists” and trying to get everyone. They were wrong though, they left a big opening for Repubs to go after Hunter and Joe on actual trumped up charges. This is where I see Dems being weak, being too concerned about appearances instead of doing their jobs to best protect the country and enforce oversight and the rule of law. Jared is so dirty, he needs to be in prison too.
AdLib2 hours ago
Murph – The sub story can indeed be pursued but since Trump betrayed US secrets at Mar-a-Lago, it would have to be added in the case Loose Cannon is intentionally delaying. So adding it in could take more time and energy but end up being moot if she caontinues to sabotage that case. Better for Smith to focus on the 1/6 case against Trump under Judge Chutkin. She is fantastic!
AdLib2 hours ago
All I see things are falling apart for Rudy he may have to court appoint counsel since his lawyers have bailed on him.
twilson117
2 hours ago
Ad your assessment of the Dems in this matter is one I endorse fully…….there is no such thing as being reasonable and balanced in dealing with these people….the GOP needs to be gone after at all levels….root and branch.
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
Murph as they say right down to the rooters and tooters
twilson117
2 hours ago
Murph – The Dems in the Senate need to take a quick vote when Tuberville isn’t there and quit being so concerned about how it might look to the public or “hurt” the institution. What hurts the Senate more is allowing one ignorant nutjob the power to harm our military.
AdLib2 hours ago
Ad I agree with you on that.
twilson117
2 hours ago
TW – Smith may be adding that charge or else using it to bolster his case that Trump habitually betrayed the US and divulged secrets.
AdLib2 hours ago
Ad I don’t think there is much Smith misses. He is doing a bang up job in my opinion it’s the judge that is slow walking things but I guess he will address that soon, at least I hope he will.
twilson117
2 hours ago
What I am looking for is an investigation of the impact of the sub secrets dump on the military readiness of the U.S. with Trumps role presumed throughout…let him and his fellow travelers stand up in defense of what was done. A senate inquiry that does not need to meet the judicial standard.
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
TW – I want to see Rudy destroyed by his own “monster”, like Dr. Frankenstein. He built this monster out of lies, fraud, and hammering on our democratic system to destroy it. I want to see him and Trump, broke and behind bars. But I hope the election workers who won their suit against him, get full payment from his assets first.
AdLib2 hours ago
Ad….now that Rudy is the target for an IRS lien on his Florida estate……the walls are closing in….what will he be willing to do to keep from being crushed?
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
Ad I totally agree with you thoughts on Rudy. BTW any more news on who may be looking for a deal in the Alanta case?
twilson117
2 hours ago
Murph – Agreed and I think the House with whoever their new “leader” is, will be forced to pursue an actual impeachment vote against Biden because Trump will demand it so whatever the reason for Dems in the Senate holding back to go after Jared and Company, should be laid aside.
AdLib2 hours ago
Ad that fake impeachment crap is just for Trump to use on the campaign trail. We all know how he’s going to play that.
twilson117
2 hours ago
Ad….I very much favor your approach…..this is nota gentlemanly bit of fist a cuffs….this is a bare knuckle brawl.
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
TW – Yes, I don’t naturally hold people in high regard in politics or government, trying to be fair and even handed, but Jack Smith is one of the best prosecutors I have ever seen in action. I think he’s brilliant and will continue to handle these cases smartly and bring them to a successful conclusion, leaving Trump with guilty verdicts and prison time.
AdLib2 hours ago
Ad the New York case I believe has really gotten under his skin. That goes right to his core and he is being expose in what seems to be a very methodical way.
twilson117
2 hours ago
Side story……a group of parents in my school district has launched a campaign demanding balance in re. to the presentation of the civil war in mo. with an emphasis on the wrong headedness of tarring slave holders without presenting “their side of the story.”
MurphTheSurf3
2 hours ago
Murph, for real???
twilson117
an hour ago
Murph – I’m with you on that but I could imagine the sub story working better with the general public as a freflection of Trump as an untrustworthy traitor than as a count to be added to the prosecution. As it is, Smith has Trump red-handed with the boxes of docs at Mar-a-Lago, he has no defense, he’s done on those charges whenever the case can be tried. The sub case is hugely terrible but again, Smith has his hands full right now, does he need to prove that in addition to the slam-dunk secrets compromised they already have on Trump?
AdLiban hour ago
TW….very much for real…..
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Murph so they want to whitewash their enslavement history??
twilson117
an hour ago
Ad…..your summary is the approach I would endorse…..pursue the sub story in another venue….which just happens to tar and feather trump as the traitor he is.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
TW….WHITE WASH….for sure……
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Murph – Yep, I was hoping the 2 election workers suing Rudy get their money out of his estate before the IRS. Rudy is SOL, he has nowhere to turn now, even his own lawyers are quitting or suing him for over $1M. And he is guilty as sin in the GA case, he is going to prison. This is exactly what he earned, I have no sympathy for such a maniacal narcissist reaping what he’s sown.
AdLiban hour ago
Murph I be interested in hearing more about that. How in God’s can they expect to be seen it a good light if they have a history of owning someone in Chattel enslavement? What planet are these people living on?
twilson117
an hour ago
TW – I heard that Willis has approached two of the charged fake electors with plea deals. No word yet but time is running out for defendants to get a decent plea deal. Let’s see if they smarten up by next week.
AdLiban hour ago
Ad I think someone will crack.
twilson117
an hour ago
Ad….I have never been an admirer or respecter of Giuliani and believe that he is facing his own apocalypse….now let Trump face the same fate.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
TW – Yep, I was laughing at how the Repubs entire panel for the inquiry declared that there is insufficient evidence to warrant an impeachment. It all blew up in their faces. I’m sure they’ll still follow Trump’s orders to continue onward but no way they could pass an impeachment vote when there’s zero evidence and 18 Repubs running for re-election in Biden-won districts.
AdLiban hour ago
TW…..the line here is that slavery in Missouri was not the equivalent of slavery in the Deep South….it was a convenient format that allowed blacks to share in the farming of the land benefiting all.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Murph, enslavement is enslavement. Chattel slavery is chattel slavery. There is no putting lipstick on that pig.
twilson117
an hour ago
TW – The NY civil case would tear apart everything Trump’s BS about being a billionaire and financial genius is built on. All of his major sources of equity and income would be taken away. Yes, he could still get dumb MAGAs to keep filling his pockets but the whole setting of Trump as a great businessman with an empire will be destroyed.
AdLiban hour ago
But TW….doncha know that “the drakes” love their “masters” as children love a strict parent……that is a quote from the argument being presented.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Murph also who benefitted from this so called convenience? Where they paid for their work or did the walk away with the lash marks on the backs, and their women having children of the slave masters?
twilson117
an hour ago
Murph – Did that group of parents insisting on “Show slaveholders as good people”, wear white hoods in the meeting?
AdLiban hour ago
Ad, I read today that Trump’s properties in the UK are under the microscope now.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
TW….the response would be that your imaging of the experience of the property owners and their workers is misinformed and misleading…
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Murph – From before and after 9/11, I despised Rudy and he should have rightfully be blamed for putting that command center in the Twin Towers which led to so many deaths of firefighters and police. Not to mention his fascist racism as Mayor. He was evil from the strat, he’s just been devoured by his own corruption. He deserves all that’s coming to him.
AdLiban hour ago
Murph and my response would be that I know how to read and there are well sourced authors and historians who have documented the enslavement process rather thoroughly.
twilson117
an hour ago
Ad….and because he put the command center in the towers he had to walk the streets acting as if he had taken his hq to the streets….it was all a pantomime show….ad in that the Twin Tower property that the city leased belonged to Rudy insiders and allies….and was sitting empty….it was a payoff.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
TW…and they would say that your sources are wokish.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Murph and just what do they really think that will get them? Really what on God’s green earth do they think they are going to get from that? Gods forgiveness?
twilson117
an hour ago
Murph – Uh…so the way people partner in a business is that the white farmers get to own the black people, abuse them, deny their freedom and rights, pay them pennies if anything and keep all the profits for themselves.Who wouldn’t sympathize with the “struggles” of white farms who were slaveowners.
AdLiban hour ago
Murph I would agree, because one has to be awake to write.
twilson117
an hour ago
Murph – Even their “argument” portraying adults who are enslaved as inferior “children” is so enormously racist.
AdLiban hour ago
TW…this all about making that which is obviously and clear SO…..is NOT so….because it runs contrary to their world view. Deeply anchored delusion.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Murph and I have a funny feeling there are plenty of records in the town that would disprove the nonsense they are attempting to sell.
twilson117
an hour ago
Ad….many of these folks believe deeply that blacks are innately juvenile and act out for lack discipline….I am not making this up.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Murph – Was it his golf course in Ireland they were investigating to take away if he couldn’t prove he bought it with legit funds?
AdLiban hour ago
Murph delusion is the exactly the game they are playing. This is right up there with Holocaust denial.
twilson117
an hour ago
Ad….and the one in Scotland.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
TW…those records you refer to are very hard to locate….many have been destroyed.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Murphm, Cogito, ergo, sum, I think there for I am, is what those folks cannot hanlde.
twilson117
an hour ago
Murph – Good recap in Rudy and the command center. He essentially was the guy who sabotaged the response to 9/11 then waved on the praise for stumbling through the wreckage he caused. It was always perverse to me that he was called, “America’s Mayor”. If he truly was that, he wouldn’t be bankrupted and going to prison.
AdLiban hour ago
Murph those old time town hall fires were always suspect to me.
twilson117
an hour ago
Ad…thanks…..I lived in NJ, right across the river from Manhattan on 9/11
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
TW…..indomitable, insufferable ignorance as enlightenment.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Murph – I believe you, that is a standard racist mindset, looking at others who aren’t white and Christian as mentally inferior and/or heathens. Describing adults who are black as children or having the minds of children is a disgusting standard of racism.
AdLiban hour ago
Murph the put together three i’s and they still can’t see.
twilson117
an hour ago
TW…a nod to you re. the comparing of reconciling slavery with holocaust denialism.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Ad……the racist minset is shaped as you describe it.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Murph it’s one of the classic man’s inhumanity to man. Even if they want to quote the Bible about slavery the Jews were supposed to free their slaves during the celebration of the Jubilee and there was one other time that I don’t recall at the moment.
twilson117
an hour ago
It’s all the same sludge from the same swamp. Fascists, racists, narcissists, authoritarians of all kinds have a burning need to be righteous. So the whitewashing of slavery is necessary to them, just as is the brainwashing of kids in schools by banning books, LGBTQ existence, etc.
AdLiban hour ago
ANOTHER local story to share……at our local, and very highly regarded public high school….the just elected president of the student body has just come out as gay……AND…..it is clear that this was widely known by the student body which apparently means that the “kids” set out to rebuke their parents regarding their phobias.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
TW – There is part of The Bible that sanctions slavery and advises how to treat slaves who obey or rebel. And it’s pretty awful.
AdLiban hour ago
Murph Wow. You’re truly on fire tonight with these antidotes that are going straight to the MAGA core on a number of things.
twilson117
an hour ago
Ad….the Bible is a library of books that offer an extraordinary variety of perspectives on many issues……like slavery…..it is a compendium that represents many opposing viewpoints.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Ad yes there is, but there was also some serious penalties for treating them badly.
twilson117
an hour ago
Murph – That story is actually encouraging. Young people across the country are rejecting the political and religious extremist Repub mentalities, including when it comes to their parents. I hope as time goes by and these hateful MAGAs die off (saw a study that Repubs have a life span 8 years less than Dems!), their kids come up in greater numbers for reason and equality.
AdLiban hour ago
TW……thanks…….it is interesting in that so many parent remain totally uninformed, unaware and undone.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Murph – Not being part of that religion, hard to understand how a book can be raised to the level The Bible is, when it contains racism, pedophilia, incest, torture, and mass murder. But I guess I’m not spiritual enough to understand that.
AdLiban hour ago
Murph the children are the ones who are looking at their parents and other adults and asking ‘what the hell are you talking about?’ And one other thing all the book banning taking books off the shelfs, I guessing some of these folks haven’t heard about Kindle or ebooks.
twilson117
an hour ago
Ad….the young man did not “come out”. He was out and had been since junior high school, he and his boyfriend were a big part of the school’s social life……teachers knew it, admin knew it….and yet a wide swath of parents did not….my conclusion….their kids kept the info from their parents who they do not agree with.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Ad…it is only the perspective of Bible as library rather than book that makes it understandable…….there is much there that is admirable and worthy and much that is not. The great error is lumping it all together and explaining away contradictions.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Murph they didn’t know it or they didn’t want to admit they knew because they like the kid and didn’t want to be shunned but their adult friends who are weirdos about things of that nature?
twilson117
an hour ago
Murph – That makes a big difference, that he was openly gay at school (even if parents didn’t know) and his classmates showed such respect for him as a human being. Bigotry is learned, no one is born thinking they are superior and people who are different in appearance or origin are inferior. And all these racist parents are trying to do is protect the continuation of their own racism that they fear may not continue otherwise.
AdLiban hour ago
TW…..I saw a video of a conversation between a young woman in high school taking on a FL state legislator re. his complete misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the meaning of separation of church and state…..she was clear…..he was muddled.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
TW…that is possible.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Ad….it seems that a group of right wing parents decided to “out” this young man without realizing that all they outed was their own ignorance.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Murph – I do think there are some great aspects of the Bible. The philosophical question for me is, should a book that has wonderful, enlightening lessons and allegory in it be revered as a whole when it also contains hateful and harmful material as well?
AdLiban hour ago
BTW….this gay young man is also a big time athlete….baseball.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Ad…those who regard the Bible as A BOOK ignore the reality……it is many books and full of contradictions (as are the scriptures in Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, Islam, Hinduism etc.)
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Murph – Maybe it was because there really isn’t a righteous argument against a seperation between church and state in a country that is a melting pot of religions and fought for its independence against being dominated by a theocracy, so any argument against that by nature has to be senseless and convoluted?
AdLiban hour ago
Murph what I have to say about the Bible is it’s has 66 books all written by different men at different times ostensibly under the inspiration of God. But, where things get dicey is when the priest, preacher and other fools start trying to apply their interpretation on something that was written in Armamic and Greek Mistakes are going to be made.
twilson117
an hour ago
Murph – So, to be clear, parents thought they could destroy the life of a young gay man, simply because he was gay, and were thwarted because the fact that he was gay was already known by his classmates who saw nothing wrong with that anyway? Those parents have to feel like total jerks in front of their kids now.
AdLiban hour ago
Ad….the key is that the separation was identified for fear that the state would define a particular religious tradition as the state religion….and there fore the purpose of the separation was to keep church in its place and that is not a public matter.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Murph well his being an athlete sheds more light on it.
twilson117
an hour ago
Murph sounds to me the young man is a strong solid individual knows who he is and doesn’t give a damn what folks believe of think.
twilson117
an hour ago
Ad….apparently there have been many arguments at home as parents “confronted” their teens with “the horror” and were laughed at or condemned.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Murph what to they say when they see a bull humping another bull, it’s been know to happen.
twilson117
an hour ago
His being an athlete……with all that this means…..common locker rooms, showers, lots of physical contact, close relationships took place with the team knowing he was gay (and not the only one)….a bit of knowledge that first became clear in junior high.
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Murph – But woudn’t you agree that the church/state seperation came more from the torturous lesson learned by the Founders that living under a theocracy was an oppressive and cruel form of government? There were different religious beliefs back then, agreed, but the oppression they faced and the cause of the Revolutionary War came from being in a theocracy that allowed for no power by the citizens to change the way things were?
AdLiban hour ago
TW…you think that farm folks, and many here are, would be wise to that bull thing would you not?
MurphTheSurf3
an hour ago
Ad I soundly agree with you that is one of the major reasons for the separation clause.
twilson117
an hour ago
Ad….absolutely……Anglicanism was tyrannical….and oppressive….recalling that a number of the colonies were founded as havens from religious oppression….and then, as so often happens, the oppressed became oppressors…..ie the Salem witch hysteria.
MurphTheSurf3
44 minutes ago
Murph I’m just a city boy from Syracuse, but, yes I clearly would.
twilson117
44 minutes ago
Murph – Love to hear that! Those parents deserve to be humiliated and ridiculed for trying to destroy the life of a high school boy just because of their hateful bigotry that their kids don’t share. I’ll bet they were thinking, “We need to ban more books and stop the woke brainwashing that’s affected our kids! Why aren’t they hateful bigots like Mom and Dad?”
AdLib44 minutes ago
I think that was a great “shield” for the guy to be an athlete, kind of handcuffs the parents’ stereotyping of him as the cartoonish image they have in their minds of a gay guy.
AdLib42 minutes ago
Ad…that is pretty accurate I think…..I have friends who are the parents of two high students and I heard much of this from them and then confirmed it with others. My friends are very open folks who were astounded that there would be any sense that the young people would rise up against their own chosen leaders because they knew that the kids really do know the other kids.
MurphTheSurf3
42 minutes ago
Murph did you read my article I believe in God, But I hate religion?
twilson117
42 minutes ago
Ad….of note….his playing baseball as a gay teen was apparently never, ever raised by anyone…..he had is first boyfriend in 7th grade and everyone knew…..apparently the homophobes were the ones who caught hell from other students for their prejudice.
MurphTheSurf3
40 minutes ago
TW…I did and it rings true to me and for me.
MurphTheSurf3
40 minutes ago
Murph – Right, the Pilgrims originally came to escape religious persecution, they weren’t all ideal people themselves as you point out, led to the Salem Witch Trials. But I think most of The Founders were Anglican, weren’t they? If so, they wouldn’t have been as concerned about being oppressed because of different religious beliefs, it was the inequity they suffered with King George robbing them of their crops and assets because he saw them as lesser and servants to The Crown. They wanted equality and understood that the injection of religion into politics would result in the same kind of oppression eventually.
AdLib39 minutes ago
Murph as I said kudos for the young man not allowing people to intimidate him and kudos to his friends that have stuck by him. As it says ‘and a child will lead them.’
twilson117
38 minutes ago
Murph – It’s too bad that it has to be this way in communities where bigotry is strong but “role models” typically become the ones who break through the older folks’ hatreds and appeal to more open minded and younger folks (and foks of any age who have an open mind).
AdLib36 minutes ago
Ad…what you say re. the state church, Anglican, is generally true….Anglican Churches were supported by colonial taxes, had special privileges and exemptions….BUT there were colonies in which other faith expressions had very similar privileges because of their foundations…..all very muddled…..thus the early move to set religious expression aside from political governance.
MurphTheSurf3
36 minutes ago
Ad I never got the throw the person in the river with heavy rock tide around their legs if they drowned their were a witch but if they floated to the top they weren’t but, they were still dead.
twilson117
36 minutes ago
TW….the thing is that this young man has apparently found much of the brouhaha as inane….adults have been openly laughed at and told to “get a life”…..
MurphTheSurf3
35 minutes ago
Murph good for him.
twilson117
34 minutes ago
TW….and good for all of his many friends, guys, girls, gay, straight, trans, fixed etc.
MurphTheSurf3
34 minutes ago
Murph yes indeed. Seems there is a lot we can learn from them.
twilson117
33 minutes ago
Murph – In the end though, using the Boston Tea Party as a symbol, wasn’t the revolution more based on the domination of theocratic power that robbed and oppressed people of all religions in America? If The Founders believed that religion was not corrupting politics, couldn’t they have just been okay with religion in politics and just laid groundrules that religion can’t be used to oppress other religions? The fact that they wanted it completely out of politics said to me that they saw the evil of theocracy and didn’t want that kind of oppression in any form, even a democratic one.
AdLib33 minutes ago
TW….I think that the situation here is not all that unusual…….it is the older generation that insists on warping reality.
MurphTheSurf3
33 minutes ago
Murph I have to agree with you on that.
twilson117
31 minutes ago
Ad…..the founders and framers were, as a whole, opposed to state institutionalism of a particular faith group. They were quite protective of the right to worship freely and openly as one chose to AND the underlying common ground in those early days was deism as a principle. That is, all good, all knowledge, arises from a divine presence that is experienced in great variety.
MurphTheSurf3
31 minutes ago
TW – Yes, the witch hunts made no sense because…they made no sense. The point of what you describe is about killing women who rebel against being chattel owned by men so that “test” for witches was a “tails you lose, heads I win” rigged game, to eliminate women who wouldn’t conform to subserviance.
AdLib30 minutes ago
Ad….it is important to note that the Salem trials were an aberration and in terms of colonial justice an outlier.
MurphTheSurf3
29 minutes ago
Ad that is a good way of describing it. The female was always the one who was supposed to be virtuous while the men could do whatever they wanted.
twilson117
29 minutes ago
Murph – And The Founders and many at the time regarded religion as a more private thing. Of course, they went to church but they didn’t regard it as something to shout about, especially when it came to politics and government.
AdLib29 minutes ago
Ad…and yet every colonial gathering (which then transitioned into independent governmental gatherings) had chaplains, opened with prayer and made reference to the divine in their documents. What was unique was the variety of expression representing a variety of traditions.
MurphTheSurf3
27 minutes ago
Ad I’ve always held to the belief the founders saw the evils and pitfall of having a state religion. So they made sure that wouldn’t happen here. We have modern day examples of countries that have state religions and we see how people especially their women are treated.
twilson117
26 minutes ago
TW – Being the category of people who are regarded in a society as the ones who are superior, they feel it like a duty to dominate everyone else because it’s an affirmation. So dominating women as property, black people as property, on and on, they feel a need to prove constantly that they have the power and anyone who might challenge them, must be used as property and abused to set and example for others like them when they don’t conform. The MAGAs of today are no different.
AdLib26 minutes ago
WHEN one considers the dangers inherent in dominionism it is clear that the founders and framers were wise indeed.
MurphTheSurf3
25 minutes ago
This has been an outstanding discussion. I love our little gathering each week (and wish that others would join in…..but their loss)……
MurphTheSurf3
24 minutes ago
Ad your argument is solid.
twilson117
24 minutes ago
Murph – It appeared to me that there was a more subtle but consistent approach, that they wanted government not to be a theocracy in order for it to provide citizens (who weren’t slaves or women) with a fair government yet still wanted their work to be blessed by the God they worshipped. They didn’t eschew religion, they just saw its place differently than the theocraats today.
AdLib23 minutes ago
Well, guys I have to call it, I’ve been working on an article on Edward Blum and didn’t get much sleep so I’m going to sign off. Always great discussion.
twilson117
23 minutes ago
Hey Ad,,,,
MurphTheSurf3
22 minutes ago
Did you know that Biden removed Trump from the daily briefing protocol that has been in place for ex Presidents for many years…..Biden cited security concerns.
MurphTheSurf3
22 minutes ago
Murph – Yes, The Founders recognized that any religion embedded in government, poisons it and creates the potential for theocracy to rise.
AdLib21 minutes ago
Murph – I enjoy our Vox so much as well. We will be bumping up our attendence when CL is back, maybe we can invite some other people we think would be a good fit too?
AdLib20 minutes ago
Ad…agreed….religion was widely regarded as a civilizing and enlightening structure but no single tradition was to be given preference (of note….there were apparently discussion re. how this understanding related to non-christian faith esp. Judaism.)
MurphTheSurf3
19 minutes ago
Yes, I remember Biden did that soon after he was inaugurated. A very smart move, especially after hearing the news about Trump spilling secrets about our subs. It was clear from the start, Trump was compromised by Russia, all those CIA agents died quickly thanks likely to Trump’s spilling secret info to Putin.
AdLib18 minutes ago
Ad…which takes me back to my hope that Trump will be made to pay for his behavior in this matter.
MurphTheSurf3
17 minutes ago
Well….time to fold up my tent….this has been excellent.
MurphTheSurf3
16 minutes ago
As a matter of history, theocracies usually led to horrific treatment of innocent human beings. Sometimes not as bad, often times terrible. Democracies aren’t perfect but never can go to those lengths unless they become as oppressive and undemocratic as theocracies…which is of course the Trump plan for 2025.
AdLib15 minutes ago
Yes, really enjoyed our chat tonight! And I am confident, Trump will be convicted and sentenced to prison before the election…which he will definitely lose. Have a nice weekend!
AdLib14 minutes ago
He’ll be out during appeals but eventually, he will go to jail…if he doesn’t flee the country for Russia first.
AdLib13 minutes ago
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