• AdLib : I used to like them but don’t do them anymore.

  • AdLib : Winner!

  • SmotPoker : Birthday?

  • SmotPoker : To be honest, I never do them. I hate puzzles…

  • AdLib : What is an eight letter word for what day today is for Crossword puzzles?

  • SmotPoker : That’s what google is telling me on their page

  • KillgoreTrout : Thanks SP. I await your comments, gladly.! Good night my friends.

  • AdLib : Very cool, I did not know that!

  • SmotPoker : Happy Birthday to the Crossword Puzzle it is 100 years old today.

  • AdLib : Same here Smot. Feel good and rest well!

  • SmotPoker : OK AdLib, good talk tonight.

  • AdLib : It is about that time, to close up the Vox bar for the night. Cheers KT and Smot! Have a great weekend and happy holidays! See you around The Planet over the weekend for Music Thread and Sunday Funnies!

  • SmotPoker : KT – For the record, I got about half way through it before I got interrupted, I will finish it though and post some of my thoughts on it. One thing I saw that I could have used the other day was when he was much more elegant in his statement about intellectual laziness (my words) when we reach the point where our knowledge is stymied when it comes to explaining or developing on the unknown. That’s when the scientist of ancient times would attribute to god, and call it a day. I still have more to watch though, and i’m sure he expands on that thought.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ah, I must say goodnight. I wish you stalwarts a good night and happy holidays. :)

  • AdLib : KT – Looking forward to it as always!

  • AdLib : KT – Was a little under the weather the last couple of days but better now. I will be catching up on your post and video!

  • AdLib : Smot – It bewilders me because my mind just doesn’t work that way. I mess up on something, I want to fix it. For some people, they mess up on something, they will do backflips trying to blame anyone or anything else for it or deny there was a mess up at all.

  • KillgoreTrout : The weekend music thread is complete and Kalima has approved it’s publication. I hope you all enjoy it.

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey ad. I was hoping you would watch the video in my recent and (rare) post. I hope you enjoy it, because , knowing you, as much as is possible on such a forum, I think you would really enjoy it. I look forward to your evaluation. I put great stock in your thoughts and beliefs.

  • SmotPoker : AdLib – I know right? I don’t get that kind of thinking, it’s simply unproductive and detrimental to your own development as a person.

  • AdLib : KT – I’ve found that many people live in one delusion or another. It’s kind of disappointing that many people would rather have something messed up in their lives than admit something is messed up.

  • SmotPoker : Dibs on posting that on the music thread this weekend…

  • SmotPoker : KT – Yeah Joe Walsh has a song about Living a Life of Illusion…

  • SmotPoker : AdLib – BINGO!

  • AdLib : Smot – Exactly what we’re talking about. If you’re so busy trying to cover your ass and present a phony image, you’ll never fix the problems you’ve got. Too bad for the Lions.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, if we don’t, we live a life of delusion. No way to spend our few minutes upon this glorious globe.

  • SmotPoker : To use an example outside the political arena

  • SmotPoker : Not that sports has anything to do with it, but his attitude of self delusion and that all criticism is just unwarranted hatred from haters is pure insanity.

  • AdLib : KT – Absolutely, I get it, I was just joking. We learn from the things that scar us…if we want to.

  • SmotPoker : “lost 4 of 5”

  • SmotPoker : AdLib – Yep, that would explain my dislike of Jim Schwartz the HC of the Lions. To hear him tell it his team that has last 4 of 5, and threw away a stranglehold on the NFC Central has no problems, everything is hunky dory, he hasn’t made any mistakes along the way despite the evidence to the contrary. It drives me crazy the level of self delusion that people will obtain to protect themselves from the truth of the matter.

  • KillgoreTrout : Of course we have visible scars. That was my point. Through examining our scars, we are brought back to when those scars wee made, and given the proper amount of introspection, those scars bring us back to when, where and how they were inflicted. Understand?

  • AdLib : Smot – That’s why admitting an error is so important, it can’t be corrected if it’s not even recognized.

  • SmotPoker : Although when I’m in the wrong I do try to correct my error.

  • SmotPoker : AdLib – True that.

  • SmotPoker : KT – I’m my own worse critic, the opinions of others rarely have any effect on my day to day life or my sense of being.

  • AdLib : Smot – What 20 year old isn’t arrogant? Old enough to feel wise but too young to be it.

  • KillgoreTrout : I agree SP. But we must consider the possibility of prying eyes that might not be so hospitable.

  • SmotPoker : I remember being an arrogant 20 something year old prick that stated I would never have regrets in life. Man, I was such a dipshit.

  • SmotPoker : I cut my scars off my body with my own hands….

  • AdLib : Smot – That about sums up George Bush.

  • SmotPoker : You show me a person that says they have no regrets in life and I will show you a fool that has learned very little on their journey through life.

  • AdLib : KT – Tell that to my scars.

  • KillgoreTrout : For the strong, there are no scars, only reminders.

  • SmotPoker : KT – Well in order to be invested in our friendship, it helps to have something you can relate to with the other person/people that you interact with both here and elsewhere.

  • AdLib : Smot – The Repubs won’t even let Bush attend their conventions! Even they see him as weak and a loser. No question that the liar known as Bush is seen as a small, weak man.

  • SmotPoker : I’m an open book folks, anything you want to know about me simply ask.

  • SmotPoker : AdLib – O is by far. At least in my book anyway.

  • AdLib : Consider, George Bush when asked what his biggest mistakes were claimed that he couldn’t think of any he made. Obama has apologized for the ACA website and many other things along the way. Who is seen as the stronger man?

  • KillgoreTrout : Wow, we’ve really gotten under the sand tonight, haven’t we? I love it. This is what i call really getting to know each other!

  • SmotPoker : Nevermind…just some lag is all.

  • SmotPoker : Hmmm I think my response got raptured somehow…

  • SmotPoker : AdLib – Absolutely. As I said earlier, you can’t fix what you don’t acknowledge is broken. If nothings broke, you don’t have anything to work on, and the delusion continues, often to your own detriment.

  • AdLib : My view has always been that admitting your failings only makes you stronger. You build your self-respect each time you can admit you’re wrong or messed up because you know you’re THAT honest, with yourself and others. After all, only a strong person is willing to take a hit, a weak person is afraid of taking a hit and will do whatever they can to avoid it, lying to themselves and others. So, I see honesty and admitting ones mistakes and failings as building strength.

  • SmotPoker : See ya around PP

  • AdLib : Night pinkpantheroz! Have a great weekend and very Happy Holidays!

  • pinkpantheroz : Goodnight to you all and I hope you have a Happy Christmas and Prosperous New Year. See you next Friday!

  • SmotPoker : AdLib – What other choice is there? Anything less is to admit defeat. I ain’t beaten yet.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, while I basically agree with that sentiment and even found it to be literally true in my case, but I have just recently read Christopher Hitchens’ final book entitled Mortailty. It is his account of his last days on earth. So fuckimg brave and tenacious it’s almost inconceivable. He mentions how he once thought and admired the phrase..”what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.” That is inspiration for those who are not terminally ill. But for those who are, the many pokes and prods with needles and x-rays an radiation treatments…. only serve to make you weaker, in an attempt to save your life. Having read that brutally honest account, it does make me second guess the phrase that whatever doesn’t kill you, makes you stronger.

  • AdLib : Smot – What is remarkable is how you can look back on the awful things you went through and see the full scope of how you chose to deal with the pain of all that. It is a kind of objectivity that is admirable.

  • SmotPoker : AdLib – Quite right, it is very painful, but in my experience worth every bit of it.

  • SmotPoker : Difficulties in my youths had a direct impact on my behavior as an adult. I won’t go into it all right here, but suffice it to say that it involved sexual abuse, physical abuse, mental abuse, attempts on my life, and hospitalization for 10 months to keep me away from the dangers I was facing at home. It’s no wonder I spent 20 years in a bottle looking for a place to hide. Hindsight of course being 20/20

  • AdLib : Smot – Honesty is too painful for some people who have gone too long without being honest with themselves. It actually pains some people to accept responsibility for who they know they really are and what they do.

  • AdLib : There’s an old cliche, “What doesn’t destroy us, only makes us stronger.” Very true in many cases, if you can avoid being scarred by difficulty, you can be enlightened by it.

  • KillgoreTrout : Bye fergie, I wish you happy holidays and good times with your friends and family. I hope you might contribute, tomorrow to the weekend music thread. Peace, my friend!

  • SmotPoker : The hard part is being honest with yourself. If you can’t do that then you cannot fix what is broken It’s a hard thing to do, as we all tend to minimize that which makes us feel as if we are less than the image we put forth of ourselves for public consumption.

  • AdLib : Night Fergie! Rest well and have a wonderful Christmas!

  • Fergie1 : I really am going to have to say bye for now. Have a Very Happy and Safe Christmas.

  • KillgoreTrout : SP’ you know from excruciating experience, what it takes to really change. That, mu friend is a gift within it’s self.

  • AdLib : SmotPoker – That is fascinating. You read stories or see films about people who discover and better themselves due to difficult times they go through but to hear that you went through that yourself is very affirming. It is so easy to lose sight of the person we sought to be and thought we were but as you describe, sometimes it is the trying times that make us take stock of ourselves and our values, what we really think that matters.

  • Fergie1 : Exactly spot on Ad. We would have gone over the cliff for sure if not for Obama. And he is most definitely not given due credit, especially of late, for this.

  • AdLib : Fergie – In early 2008, before the crash happened, I was so enthusiastic about all the great things Obama could do if he won the Presidency. He must’ve been imagining that too. Then the crash hit in the Summer/Fall and destroyed those dreams because whoever won would have one major task, preventing the US from tumbling into a Great Depression. That is one thing Obama is hardly ever given credit for, as President, he led the nation back from a horrible economic disaster. Had McCain won, I think we would have fallen into a Great Depression and still been in it today. So aside from all the other great policies Obama has supported, he helped rescue this nation when it needed to be and put his own agenda on hold, aside from the ACA which is remarkable to this day that it got passed.

  • SmotPoker : Not to say that I was completely without merit prior to my surgery. I have always attempted to help others whenever the opportunity arose. I’ve given away mobile homes, automobiles, televisions, all kinds of stuff that I had but had little use for to those that had a need for it.

  • Fergie1 : OOps Ad, I hit the send button too early and started again. Sorry about that.

  • SmotPoker : As they say, pain is weakness leaving your body.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, not unlike the Buddhist believe that hard times can lead to spiritual growth, not all pain is without benefit. I know that may sound a bit masochistic, but it is true. When I was in the Marine, the common mantra was..”pain is good.” Of course that can be taken to unacceptable levels.

  • SmotPoker : AdLib – It’s funny how it works out. Prior to my surgery to be honest I wasn’t that great of a human being. I drank to much, I ran around on my wife, I was a really flawed human being far too concerned with making ever more money, and fulfilling my desires with no regard to the damage I was doing to myself or my family. That surgery, and my subsequent medical retirement really gave me time to take stock of what I had become, and was the catlyst for change within me. I began to be a more compassionate person, more empathetic to those less fortunate. Over all it was a good thing, something that I needed to happen in my life in order to improve myself as a human being, and as a man.

  • Fergie1 : Oh my word Ad, I can’t tell you how much I agree with your statement about getting some good things done rather than none. That’s exactly my point. I can’t type as fast as you, so my replies as not as in depth as yours. When President Obama was elected in 2009 I said that one man cannot be expected to fix everything on the toss of a dime and that it would take time. I have little time for those who expect miracles and do not understand how their goverment works yet are ready to castigate Obama for every little thing. No one is perfect and it is quite impossible to agree with everything any President does or does not do. So unrealistic. More to say but this is taking too long here! Cheers Ad.

  • AdLib : Now if only the UK can get the Tories out and get back on the right path as the Catholic Church and US are!

  • AdLib : Smot – As you get older, you learn that there are some things you just have to accept and adapt to, there’s no other choice. I’m sorry you’re having to go through what you are though.

  • KillgoreTrout : SP, that’s really great to see. Maybe we will get together one day. I really appreciate your compassion!

  • SmotPoker : AdLib – thanks, but it is what it is. Man, I’m so tired of saying that phrase, but sometimes there isn’t any other way to put it.

  • AdLib : Smot – Sorry to hear you have to deal with constant pain like that.

  • SmotPoker : So how do we stick to our ideals without stepping into the purity trap?

  • SmotPoker : You get out my way KT, and I’ll take care of you. Just give a shout.

  • Fergie1 : Oh my word Ad. I can’t tell you how much I agree with that!

  • AdLib : KT – But you have many different types of practicing Jews. Orthodox, Reformed, etc. There is no uniform Judaism and no single authority for Jews.

  • SmotPoker : AdLib – Once again that purity trap can a real minefield to navigate.

  • KillgoreTrout : I have no access to cannabis now, because I can’t grow in my present situation. My landlord is always about the grounds. I never can tell when he will knock upon my door. So I have gone without for about 5 years now. There are ggod thing and not so good things about going without. If someone offered me ajay, right now, or tomorrow or a week from now, I would Happily partake. I have used cannabis for over 40 years now. I don’t intend for that to stop. I guess my brain just needed a prolonged time out.

  • SmotPoker : Sorry didn’t mean to get so off topic.

  • SmotPoker : These days I take 2 vicodin a day, and supplement my pain relief with cannabis. It doesn’t completely kill the pain like the strong narcotics, but it at least brings it down to manageable levels.

  • AdLib : Fergie – After being around for a while, I’ve found that people who move society in the right direction, even if not going as far as we want, are doing well by us. Steering a huge and anchored organization like the Catholic Church is unavoidably gradual, just as Obama steering the US’ health care system and economics are gradual. In the real world, we don’t get everything we want but if some people in powerful positions are working to do the right thing in some areas, I believe they should be supported and in doing so, encouraged to go farther. That’s why I resent the emoprog types attacking Obama, they would rather have a Republican as President doing nothing they want than this President doing some of the things they want? They can’t see past their own purism.

  • SmotPoker : KT – Once I had my spine fusion surgery, and the doctors had me on very powerful narcotics such as oxycontin, norco, klonipin, and assorted others, it was very clear to me that I should not drink on such drugs. In that time I decided to divorce my wife, and weirdly enough I simply lost my taste for it overnight. It was puzzling because it was like someone had flipped a light switch and turned off my taste for it. I didn’t just decide to quit one day, evidently it was decided for me…lol

  • KillgoreTrout : SP, I went 12 years without a drink. I used cannabis to help me get through those 12 years without alcohol.

  • SmotPoker : I think I may have it simplified just a bit too much, as there may be other writing in it than just the OT.

  • SmotPoker : I could be off base here, but isn’t the Torah the old testament?

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, the torah is the central teaching of the Hebrew religion and it’s interpretation leaves very little ambiguity as to its intent and meaning. You simply can’t say that about the Quran. They are not similar, in any way.

  • AdLib : ppo – I do think Pope Francis is sweeping out the church of many things that need sweeping out. It amazes me that he was chosen, it was a great decision.

  • SmotPoker : Thanks AdLib – It’s a 100% true story to boot! It was simply wonderful to receive such praise. I was walking on air when someone said they couldn’t stop reading it. High praise indeed. I was stunned.

  • SmotPoker : It’s all good KT. I prefer my cannabis. I haven’t drank alcohol in years now. I used to be pretty good at it, in fact I was so good I could have gone pro….

  • AdLib : Smot – It was a fun read, thanks for writing it!

  • AdLib : Killgore – The Torah is writing, it’s not a single authority like the Pope. And no, there are no rabbis that dictate to all jews. Not the case. All religions have religious writings including the Koran for Islam, that’s not their single authority either.

  • Fergie1 : Ad, I agree with you about Pope Francis, so I won’t indulge in repetition. Luckily, I was fortunate enough to have been educated in a very tolerant enviornment, a Catholic school which had more non-Catholics attending than Catholics. We all got along and no one even discussed religion. It was the era of John XXIII – the last Pope I had any time for until now. Francis won’t do all the things I want, but it’s a start. One of the best things he has said is “Who am I to judge”? I’m hoping for more. But poverty and hunger should be the first issue to address with action. The rest can follow. Married and women priests for instance. Compared to the poverty in this world, those are less important.

  • KillgoreTrout : SP, i do acknowledge thier hypocracy. But when Brady was shot, the fanatical NRA didn’t have the influence it does today. That is the scary thing about today’s NRA. You’ll have to excuse my slowness in response and speech. I have had the better part of a twelve pack by now.

  • pinkpantheroz : Adlib, about your commment to KT’s post. I reckon the reason so much abuse went on for so long is that the previous popes were surrounded by sycophants and shielded from the reality. They were really the ones in power and many of the popes were totally isolated, especially John Paul the First, who didn’t even last long. so here’s hoping that Francis takes a fresh broom to the Vatican and cleans house.

  • AdLib : Smot – Or just to be even simpler, have 100% publicly financed elections that last for months, not years. Then no lobbyist, corporation or billionaire would have power or sway and politicians wouldn’t be beholden to anyone but voters. And the only way they could win re-election is by earning it since they wouldn’t have the incumbent fundraising advantage anymore.

  • SmotPoker : Before I forget, I want to thank everyone for their kind words in response to my little article about my night with Karma. Such positive reinforcement was wonderful. Thanks folks.

  • AdLib : Fergie – That’s a great point and I’ve followed that turmoil in Australia over the PM wars. It’s not necessarily better as a whole but in those periods where there is relative unity, as we had post Bush, so much could have been accomplished here. On the other hand, I can’t even imagine all the more horrible things that would have happened under the Bush Admin if we had a parliamentary system. One thing for sure, Social Security would have been privatized and then when the 2008 crash happened millions of seniors would have no money!

  • KillgoreTrout : The Jews have the Torah. They have rabbis who are beholden to the words of the Torrah. No such thing exists in Islam. There is no formal deciding aspect in Islamic law.

  • SmotPoker : Ambush topic I suppose.

  • SmotPoker : KT – I just brought it up to point out the hypocrisy of the GOTP.

  • AdLib : Smot – Even if a Repub President was shot today, I doubt a Brady Bill would pass.

  • KillgoreTrout : How did the Bradey Bill come into this discussion? I haven’t been paying strict attention.

  • SmotPoker : The fairest reform of all would be to have our officials in government selected by lottery from a pool of all age appropriate citizens. Take the money right out of politics…

  • pinkpantheroz : well put, adlib. At the very least he’s a bit of a shot in the arm for people who were in despair of the Catholic Church and it’s flaunting of power and coverup of abuse. A small light at the end of a big tunnel, but hopefully it will get bigger.

  • AdLib : KT – Don’t know if I buy that theory. Jews don’t have a central authority nor do Hindus and a number of other religions. And go back to the Crusades and even as recently as the child molestation revelations and we can see the terrible things done when there is a single authority figure. All religions at one time or another have been in a position to commit or be able to commit terrible things. I think the reasons for the ones that have done terrible things are more complex.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, when Sarah Palin calls the Pope a “liberal,” that only increases the popes coinage INMO.

  • Fergie1 : Ad, I see your point, but the Parlimentary system is not all that great in reality. The Prime Minister can be tossed out by back-stabbing and party factions thus lending to instability. This has happened in Australia where there have been Four Prime Ministers in the past five years and not much gets done under those circumstances.

  • SmotPoker : The Brady Bill “passed WITHOUT a problem…”

  • SmotPoker : AdLib – I can agree that this pope is cut from a different cloth than any of the popes in my lifetime. I can give him credit for the example he is setting, and his words even if I have no belief in what he preaches in regards to religion.

  • SmotPoker : I wonder how many of the currents cons in office would have voted for the Brady Bill if it were brought to vote today. For those not familiar with the Brady Bill it was brought forth following the attempted assassination of Ronnie Raygun, passed with a problem.

  • AdLib : ppo – I am pleased with Pope Francis because he is using his high profile to come out in favor of compassion, the poor and loving thy neighbor (even gays!!!). He opposes trickle down/supply side economics as cruel and dishonest and eschews the grandiose trappings and materialism of his postion. Whether one is or isn’t Catholic and even if one isn’t crazy about the proposition of there being a Pope, what he has done with this megaphone has been very conscientious so far and unlike many previous Popes, not judgmental over others, especially non-Catholics and those who don’t conform to Catholic beliefs.

  • SmotPoker : AdLib – I’d like that system as well, along with the opportunity to call for a vote of no confidence when we find ourselves betrayed by those that we elect to serve us.

  • KillgoreTrout : But, when you consider religions that have so much power in the world, at least the pope is a central authority, that kind of keeps his flock in line. In Islam, there is no central authority and that’s why there is so much killing and destruction and enslavement of women. Islam has no central authority. There is no one to stop some Imam from declaring a fatwa agianst anybody, for any reason. Their default excuse is their personal interpretation of the Quran. That’s why there is so much Chaos in the Muslim world. I am not giving the pope a pass. But at least, within Catholicism there is some sort of rational order.

  • SmotPoker : AdLib – Like I stated earlier, that purity trap can be hard to avoid. My displeasure with half measures is probably a sign that I had my foot half in the trap.

  • AdLib : Smot – This is why I wish we had a parliamentary system at times, then Obama could have put through any and all policies without compromise. But the reality is that no full measure type bill favoring Progressive views will be passed by the Repub House or get past a filibuster by Repubs in the Senate. Single Payer for example, didn’t have any Repubs behind it so it could never overcome a filibuster. At this point in time, we can see that it is far better to have the ACA in place than nothing because we stood on Single Payer or nothing.

  • pinkpantheroz : Adlib and KT, I’m like you both inthat I’m so far impressed with Pope Francis. He comes across as being one of us, instead of lording it over us like the last few Pontiffs who came after VatII and dialled back all the reforms. I may just start to listen again. I’ll always love the Song. It’s the Singers I couldn’t stand.

  • SmotPoker : AdLib – I get what your saying, some protection is better than none. Personally, I’m just sick of half measures being acceptable. If you were on the operating table to have some cancer removed wouldn’t you want them to get it all the first time instead of needing yeas of operations to get the job done? A bit simplistic, but you get the gist I’m sure.

  • AdLib : You too Dbos, Happy Holidays to you!

  • Dbos : agree AD; Im otta here happy holidays

  • AdLib : Somt – I too wanted the Bush Admin to be held criminally responsible for their violations of the Constitution including torture and other war crimes. I was very disappointed when Dems won the House back and promised not to pursue charges. As for the financial reforms, I do disagree that the Consumer Protection Board is toothless, it’s been returning millions to consumers and the new Volker Rule has really pissed off the banks. Granted, the financial laws have been gutted from being as severe as they should be, in fact, the big banks should be broken up, but it is a step in the right direction. Just as the ACA has many consumer protections and is a step in the right direction. Single Payer is what makes the most sense and is the direction the ACA points us in but change is gradual on massive programs. Could all of these things be better? Yes. But what they offer is an improvement and something to build on.

  • KillgoreTrout : SP, I think there is ample criticism of thewhole Pope thing and the Vatican as being a country unto itself.

  • SmotPoker : *crickets*

  • SmotPoker : Did everyone just get up and go to the bathroom at the same time or something?

  • SmotPoker : I’ll see if I can get in touch with my people off planet…

  • AdLib : ppo – I sure would like to see Obama fight that Corporations Are People but there’s not much he can do…except appoint a new SCOTUS judge to tip the balance back to the Progressive side. Let’s all wish upon our Christmas trees that aliens come and take Scalia and Thomas away to a galaxy far, far, away.

  • SmotPoker : Last time I said something about a guy wearing a dress, it didn’t end well… I didn’t KNOW it was that kind of bar OK?

  • Dbos : not even the Borgia’s great family full of fun and popes

  • SmotPoker : I’m gonna refrain from talking about popes.

  • SmotPoker : And just to be clear, it’s not a “she’s a woman” thing either.

  • KillgoreTrout : SP, overthrowing the government is just blusterous babbling of the Tea Baggers. They rant on and on about smaaller governement, but when a real disaster hits, they scream for government help.

  • AdLib : Dbos – I am really pleased more and more each day with Pope Francis and up until him, I was really not too crazy about Popes. He sure seems to be a very compassionate and inclusive guy.

  • SmotPoker : I don’t trust her AdLib. I truly do not.

  • SmotPoker : I was at my medical mj providers place today, and one of the regulars brought in a pic of his Xmas tree. It was a Darth Vader tree with all kinds of SW ornaments and stuff. Cool as hell.

  • AdLib : Smot – That is my biggest concern about Hillary. The Clintons are so tied up with Wall Street, are old DLCers and are not populists. My big question is, will Hillary adopt the more Progressive policies that Dems and a majority of America seek, especially when it comes to re-balancing our economy so the wealthy aren’t getting wealthier while the majority gets poorer? This is the central issue facing our nation and if she was to be the Hillary of 2008, pro-war, pro-Wall Street, that would present a real problem.

  • SmotPoker : I don’t think that Americans need to overthrow their government, but they need to overthrow the 1% that pulls it strings to their benefit and to the detriment of every one else.

  • KillgoreTrout : I’m looking forward to whay Boehner and Ryan are goig to approve or disapprove in the budget battle, before the Jan. 15 deadline. Are B and r just trying to save face now, after the last shutdown fiasco, or are they really going to do what’s right for the American people. If they are bluffing now, their bluff will soon be called.

  • SmotPoker : May the Force be with you, and all that…

  • SmotPoker : OK Beatlex see you then. Be safe.

  • SmotPoker : AdLib – Sure, there have been some good with the bad. I feel that the Finance reform is pretty toothless. I find it disturbing that no bankers are facing any prison sentences for blowing up the economy, and don’t get me started on the previous administration getting a pass on war crimes, and crimes against humanity. It’s a long con being played by both sides, and the suckers are us.

  • AdLib : Night Sabreen, great seeing you. Have a wonderful Christmas!

  • Beatlex : Smot,I wish,gotta work tomorrow so I can have the holiday week,I will be here at night,see you then!

  • AdLib : Night Murph, take care and rest well. Have a very merry Christmas too!

  • pinkpantheroz : Adlib. I think that President Obama would really put his mark on the political diaspora if he were somehow able to organise a successful challenge to the Corporations-are -People stupidity from the Supreme Court.

  • AdLib : Sabreen – Some Dems are beholden to corporations and the military so they will vote with Repubs on those issues but there are no Repubs who are beholden to any Progressive entities so it’s kind of a one way street.

  • SmotPoker : X – you gonna be on the jukebox in the morning?

  • Dbos : See you; happy holidays; gonna follow the new pope around for a while see what else he’s up to to cause the entrenched hypocrites stomach pains .

  • KillgoreTrout : Good night Murph. I really hope you are feeling better.

  • SmotPoker : I find it disturbing in a nation founded on the freedom of speech, that it requires a permit to be issued for people to protest. If it wasn’t so screwy it would be funny.

  • AdLib : Night Beatlex! Have a great weekend and happy holidays!

  • Fergie1 : Sabreen60 – A wise decision!

  • AdLib : Smot – I wouldn’t go as far but I do think that Obama has from time to time put corporations and Wall Street first, ahead of the people. But he has also put the people first ahead of corporations, we have a Consumer Protection Board now, the Volker Rule being put in place, etc. I think his record is mixed on these issues, some good and some bad. We have seen him block the Keystone Pipeline too. So, some things on both sides.

  • SmotPoker : Sometimes it can be difficult not to fall into the same purity trap that ensnares our GOTP friends.

  • KillgoreTrout : I really can’t comment on what Obam should or shouldn’t do. It really doen’t matter what I think. Yes, I can sign petition after petiton, rally in the streets, but as Barney Frnak said so wisely. Street protests and petitions mean very little. What has meaning and strength, is the vote. We have to change things by the process that was originally set up to enact change. That is VOTING. Voting on all levels, not justfederal and state, but like Hillary said. It takes a village.

  • SmotPoker : I don’t think Hilary is all that progressive either. I believe her Presidency would be the equal to a 5th Bush term, or a 3rd Obama term. Protect the status quo, screw everything else. i could be wrong, I don’t think so, but it is possible.

  • Sabreen60 : Well. I’m out. I wish everyone a very enjoyable holiday and hope to see you soon.

  • pinkpantheroz : G’night, Murph. May you and yours have a very Merry Christmas.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Time for Bed for me. So good to see so many of you here and lively.

  • pinkpantheroz : Beatlex, you are so right about the racism. As the GOP stated, their intent was to make him a one-term President, and when that fell in a heap, they blithely continued to bloc, delay, obfusticate and flat out do nothing to help the country in its biggest time of need. We can only hope that the Dems remind the people forcefully in the lead up to the next Presidential race, and, of course, the mid-terms.

  • SmotPoker : Sabreena- So true. Every time I see Feinstein defending this gross violation of the 4th Amendment I want to puke. It’s disgusting. Yeah, that’s how I view him, and his policies back it up.

  • Sabreen60 : SmotPoker – PBO is a corporatist tool? WOW. I am going to back way up from that comment.

  • AdLib : Beatlex – I don’t know if Hillary could have won in 2008. Don’t forget, she had alienated many Progressives because of her hawkish position on Iraq and war in general, the race-tinged attacks on Obama by her and Bill and the Repubs had a huge folder of dirt they’d been digging up on Hillary to hit her with in 2008 (which they’ll pull out in 2016 if she runs but by then it will be such old news), if Hillary had win the Dem nom, there is no guarantee that she would have won. And Hillary is far more conservative on economics than Obama, she and bill are in bed with Wall Street and hedge funds, I don’t know that she would have brought about the recovery as well had she won which could doom any Dem nominee in 2016. So many variables, hard to predict what would have happened. I’m just glad Obama won twice and as long as Hillary is more embracing now of the more Progressive values, she stands a great chance of winning in 2016.

  • Beatlex : Well friends,I have an early day tomorrow,see you Killgore for the MUSIC tomorrow night!

  • Dbos : Beat great point; the tea party owners have used fear and hatred of the unknown; “A BLACK man In charge OMG were all gona die.”

  • SmotPoker : Somewhere along the line our elected leaders have completely bought into the bogus idea that they are there to protect the interest of the corporate world rather than the interest of the American people, with the big economic lies that America needs to give corporations free reign to do as they will for the economy.

  • Sabreen60 : AdLib, The thing is ALL Democrats are not against the NSA. Some are in Congress. Just as some Democrats want to enact the sanctions against Iran, NOW. I emailed my Senator, who is usually pretty good, and told him no way, now how on the Iran sanctions at this time. So, no we don’t always agree.

  • pinkpantheroz : I agree, ad. The President may drop the ball on occasion, but I still feel he is the right man for the job right now. He is also, from the sound of it, prepared to listen to experts and fix things that go askew. contrast this with you-know-who!

  • SmotPoker : AdLib – Yeah, I hear you. I’ve been a critic of many of his stances and policies, but I do try to support him. I think he’s been revealed to be a corporatist tool for the 1%, and not the forward thinking persona created during the run up to his first election. I voted for him both times, because to me the alternatives were completely unacceptable as opposed to somewhat unacceptable with President Obama. No man can be all things to all people. I think it’s important to remember that.

  • AdLib : Dbos – Good point. I do think things are leading up to a more active popular pushback against money and the wealthy controlling so much. It’s only getting worse ang people see that.

  • Beatlex : My brother said something that I thought was spot on.Barack Obama should have waited until 2016 to run.In hindsight,the way the R’s have tried to squander this President,Hillar y would probably have been better equipped to take on these jokers.Shoulda,w oulda,coulda.I believe the President really wants what is best for the country,but has had to endure constant attack,and lets face it,a lot of it is racial

  • KillgoreTrout : Well said Dbos! You hit the nail on the head.

  • Sabreen60 : Good night Funk. Enjoy the holidays.

  • AdLib : Night FUnk and wishing you and the family a Merry Christmas!

  • Dbos : We must always remember ;money talks in todays political environment; like thinking people need to band together to overcome the buying and selling of the world.

  • KillgoreTrout : Good night funk, and happy holidays to you and your loved ones.

  • AdLib : Smot – I think it is the responsibility of Dems to stand up and criticize or protest against anything Obama does that we disagree with. NSA spying for example and this new trade treaty he’s supporting that will allow corporations to appeal to an international group to override a nation’s laws. But just because Obama takes a stand on some issues I strongly disagree with, I can still support him as a President for all the other things he does that I strongly approve of. We don’t need to be like Repubs who never take on one of their own for doing the wrong thing (unless it’s going against their own stupid Bagger policies). We can criticize Obama but that doesn’t mean if we dislike his stands on a few issues, that we portray him as “the enemy”.

  • Sabreen60 : Funk, I’m not talking about purity test. Take DADT for example. Rachel Maddow and her followers were having a fit because PBO wouldn’t enact an EO. They were positively through with him. He was against gays, blah, blah, blah. PBO knew the right way to go was to have Congress repeal DADT. An EO could have been undone by the next President. This kind of thing has happened over and over. If I may suggest, Smartypants has a 3 part series that I think is a must read about how the media and others have treated PBO.

  • Algebra Palin : KT, i’m not saying liberals HAVE to stay in the mud, but they need to get down in it sometimes.

  • KillgoreTrout : no worries Sabreen. I always enjoy our conversations.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Funk…best to you…Happy Yuletide

  • KillgoreTrout : Sabreen. I can accept that. We all can’t agree on everything.

  • funksands : Folks, I must bid you goodnight. Great seeing old faces and new. Have a great weekend and a wonderful Christmas.

  • KillgoreTrout : AP, and there are protections against air borne viruses and gems. Would you really want to live life continually wearind a gas mask?

  • funksands : Smot, very true. Well said.

  • AdLib : Sabreen, yep, that angers me as much as RWs lying about Obama, emoprogs on the Left thinking they claim some superiority by attacking Obama no differently than Baggers. No emoprogs, you look just as delusional as Baggers.

  • SmotPoker : It’s an exercise in self delusion that needs to be stopped. We can do better.

  • Sabreen60 : KT, I meant “disagree”

  • KillgoreTrout : SP, good to see you. Some virues mutate beyond our ability to kill them. just think cancer and HIV.

  • SmotPoker : Obama has earned some very fair criticism. It is to our nations detriment that we have evolved into a society where criticism has been redefined as being a “hated on” even when the criticism is valid. We see it across all walks of life….If you disagree with what I’m doing or what I’ve done you’re just a hater. It needs to be reversed. I use Obama as an example, I’m not expressly calling him out at the moment.

  • Sabreen60 : Ok, KT. We’ll just have to agree to this agree on this one. I think an apology and suspension would have been enough.

  • funksands : Sabreen, liberals have their own purity tests. Unfortunately we can’t afford them when it comes to federal office. Purity tests are stupid when you have another party that is actively trying to eat you alive.

  • Algebra Palin : KT, so does the very air.

  • AdLib : Smot – Progressives/Lib erals are more individuals and aren’t led by suthority into what they should think, thus, they have various views. What passes for conservatism is RightThink, everyone needs to think the same thing laid out by the authority figures or they are traitors. So, it isn’t a skill or a talent that the RW has, just the opposite. They act like ants mindlessly following the chemical trail that the lead ants lay down.

  • Sabreen60 : AdLib, You know the saying, I don’t belong to a Party I’m a Democrat. Or trying to coral Democrats is like trying to coral cats? I’m not saying we should march in lockstep, but I’ve seen PBO cut off at the knees too many times by the left. And usually it’s before they even know the entire story. You know the hair-on-fire types.

  • SmotPoker : Which we need to be exposed to if we are to develop any immunity KT

  • funksands : X, I’d love to see him go down over something so petty and childish. Just desserts

  • KillgoreTrout : AP, mud also contains harmful germs and viruses.

  • funksands : Ad, he sure thinks he is.

  • AdLib : Funk – Your 9 year old is brilliant.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sabreen, I don’t give a squat what the RW was calling for. Of course they would call for his resignation. And they would be right, even if being hypocritical at the same time. We MUST be better than the RW. WE must adhere to the principles of deceny and decorum. especially in the public eye.

  • Beatlex : I would love to see Christie’s ample girth turning on the spit over this lane closure thing.The guy is a bully,plain and simple.It sure smells real bad,and I wouldn’t put it past him

  • Dbos : thanks just dropping by to see whats up

  • funksands : Smot, very true. Our greatest strength and weakness all in one shiny wrapper.

  • SmotPoker : It’s a real conundrum.

  • AdLib : Hey Dbos! Welcome to Vox!

  • SmotPoker : The good thing about being a liberal is we tend to not be in lockstep with the hive mentality. The bad thing with being a liberal is that we can rarely get in lockstep, and humker down with a hive mentality. 1000 voices in the wilderness all calling out for something different.

  • AdLib : Sabreen – Lemmings march in lockstep too, right off a cliff, so I won’t give the RW points for mindless following.

  • KillgoreTrout : AP, out of common decency and journalistic integrity, he was right to resign.

  • funksands : my 9 year old thinks you guys are funny

  • AdLib : Sabreen – In reality programming, thats what it’s all about, the more outrageous and controversial, the more successful. So yes, they knew that they had a racist/homophobi c family they were promoting but tried to keep a lid on it so people wouldn’t know. It was only this interview that exposed what they well knew (and imagine all the racist/homophobi c material they’ve edited out of the show all this time).

  • Algebra Palin : mud is good for the skin.

  • Algebra Palin : liberals need to stop apologising all the time.

  • Dbos : “never wrestle with a pig ;you will get muddy and the pig likes it”

  • Sabreen60 : AdLib, Google Martin Bashir. Every RW blog and newspaper was calling for his head. The left has never done this for one of their own. So I’ll give the RW credit. They march in lockstep regardless of right or wrong. They took action against Bashir. Suspension was enough for them. They wanted his head and they got it.

  • KillgoreTrout : Exactly fergie!

  • Algebra Palin : i’m no fan of martin bashir (after the diana and michael jackson pieces) but he shouldn’t have resigned.

  • SmotPoker : I agree to a point, but sometimes you need to go get in the mud in order to drag the mudslingers out into the disinfecting light of truth. However, I don’t think that was one of those times.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, that’s my point. There is no decent standard on the right. We need to strive to stay far away from their “standards.”

  • Fergie1 : oops “common”

  • funksands : Fergie, that incidentally is my nickname for Palin “LCD”.

  • AdLib : Beatlex – Yep, and the subtext is, we’re all fatigued when it comes to Sarah (but not Algebra Palin, we like her!)

  • Fergie1 : I agree with you KT. If you have to win an argument by reducing yourself to the lowest commen denominator, you’ve already lost the argument.

  • KillgoreTrout : We need to resist every tug and pull from the creatures that wallow in mud.

  • AdLib : KT – It was crass of Bashir and I disliked it but we have such a double standard between the Right and Left, that’s what irritated me more.

  • funksands : Ad you suspend disbelief long enough soon it doesn’t matter anymore.

  • KillgoreTrout : Absolutely Beatlex. We have to be better than them, in thought and action.

  • funksands : AP, you aren’t missing much.

  • AdLib : Funk, if that picture of the DD family doesn’t prove to people how staged and fake “reality” shows are, I don’t know what will.

  • Algebra Palin : hello, sabreen!!!

  • Algebra Palin : i ever even heard of duck dynasty before the controversy.

  • Algebra Palin : this whole phil robertson thing is one big ad for the show.

  • Sabreen60 : Hiya Algebra Palin!

  • funksands : X, Palin is simply the Alaskan branch of the Kardashian family.

  • Beatlex : Kilgore Trout,I agree with you,he has lost it like that before,there has to be a line,even if the GOP don’t need no steenking lines

  • AdLib : Hey Algebra Palin! Nice to see you here! Several topics threading through, feel free to comment on any of them!

  • funksands : Ad, I agree with you. No way on Bush.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Algie Palin…poor little trig. But still funn.

  • SmotPoker : KT would be well advised to steer clear of 2 girls 1 cup videos…

  • AdLib : Funk – I agree, as silly as it is, I think Christie’s embrace of Obama after Hurricane Sandy is a lasting image in Baggers’ minds and they won’t forgive him for that. I think he loses the primary for that and the other reasons we mentioned. So…move over Christie and hello…Jeb Bush?

  • Sabreen60 : AdLib, But A&E knew what he was when they hired him. Somebody made the calculation, that money would trump everything else.

  • Beatlex : AdLib,exactly.Di d you see Sister Sayrah wearing fatigues when she added her intellectual heft to the story? She is a hoot,a cartoon really

  • Algebra Palin : trig(onemetry) palin; algebra palin.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sab…I think that Obama has a very healthy disdain for the 4th Estate.

  • KillgoreTrout : I’m sorry but whenever anyone even intimates that one human being should shit in another human beings mouth. is disgusting and deploable. I think Mr. Bashir showed very good sense in resignig his position (if he wasn’t actually asked to resign) I mean come on folks, we really do need SOME standards here.

  • funksands : Here’s what the Dynasty guys looked like before their tv show. «link»

  • Algebra Palin : hello, murph, nice to meet you.

  • SmotPoker : Sarah’s much smarter sister?

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, I did! I don’t know how he stands it, though.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Algebra Palin…we have never met – so howdy doo! Why “Algebra Palin”

  • funksands : Palin, Palin

  • AdLib : Beatlex – If A&E wants to be boycotted on its other shows that minorities or gays would watch (of course, DD is for the RW types), then they could keep this ass on that show. Otherwise, they acted out of valid business concerns that having a racist homophobe showcased on their network would be bad for their image and ratings in the long run. Do they have the right to run their business the way they want? No, according to Repubs. Now, if they were an oil company though and wanted to pollute and poison groundwater in order to frack, they should be free to run their business however they want.

  • SmotPoker : Sabreen – Probably not, I’m fairly new to this planet.

  • funksands : Sabreen, couldn’t agree with you more. Unfortunately his class is perceived as weakness in the confines of the chattering class bubble.

  • Sabreen60 : Hi SmotPoker. Don’t believe we’ve spoken.

  • Algebra Palin : what’s the topic

  • SmotPoker : Funk – Yeah that about sums up how I view it as well.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sab…you had to love the sarcasm in his resolution to treated the WH Press Corps better….

  • KillgoreTrout : Oh, you can bet that the RW will and does already use this as ammo against left wing decency. We don’t need that, at all.

  • funksands : Smot, my dad told me early on in life: “Son, half of the people in this world are a-holes. That’s not the problem. The problem is that only half of that half will tell you they are. The rest you have to find out the hard way.”

  • Fergie1 : I’m in and out here, but before everyone signs off for the evening, may I wish all a Very Happy Christmas and a Peaceful New Year. (well, as peaceful as possible!). I’m not a fan of cliches. But I do wish you well sincerely. Thank you all for the warm welcome to Planet POV.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Holy Smot…welcome

  • Sabreen60 : Funk, I know all too well about the double standard. It’s been front and center for the world to see since 2009. I’ve witnessed it for 64 years. I’m glad President Obama has not stooped to the ignorance he’s faced with daily. I have observed, however, his ‘good behavior’ and ‘class’ hasn’t done much good at stopping the disrespect, which, BTW was on full display at the WH Press Conference today.

  • SmotPoker : Hey all

  • funksands : Hey Smot! Evening.

  • funksands : Ad, I don’t think so. He’d have to go the full Romney and disavow every rational thing he’s ever said. I think he’d be very dangerous in the general, but I can’t see him getting through the primary.

  • SmotPoker : As my grandfather told me long ago, when people try to show you who they really are, you should believe them the first time.

  • AdLib : Hey SmotPoker! Welcome!

  • AdLib : So in light of this revelation about Christie abusing his power to get even, does anyone here still think he’ll be the 2016 GOP nominee?

  • funksands : Here is that Duck Dynasty rant. Very funny (foul language warning) and an accurate take «link»

  • Beatlex : Backwoods Redneck shows who he really is,he is entitled his views,but not entitled to have a reality show if the people paying the shot don’t like what he said.The rights reaction is completely predictable,of course.It’s all these pathetic people have

  • SmotPoker : Greetings earthlings. Looking over the topics discussed…whew I really dodged a bullet not being here earlier

  • KillgoreTrout : Good evening Beatlex. Glad you could make it.

  • AdLib : Sabreen – It is the kind of insult I think is beneath political discussion but Bashir’s words were massively tamer than what you can hear on Fox every day, hating on minorities, women, the poor, etc. Again, Bashir insults one loony woman, he needs to go. Fox News insults whole races and sexes, they deserve a raise.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sabreen, you know that nobody here thinks Obama is a racist. Such claims are restricted to RW hatred and fear of losing white power. Those turds deserve to end up in the dustbin of American history.

  • funksands : Sabreen. It is. There is a double standard. There always will be. KT is right, as long as we don’t lower ourselves to their level there is going to be a double standard.

  • Fergie1 : glenn, every good wish to you and the family that you do have with you. I’m sorry for your great loss. It is not the easiest time of year for many of us and others. Your loss happening so close to Christmas four years ago makes it all the more difficult. But I do wish you a kinder 2014.

  • Sabreen60 : Good night, glenn. I hope you enjoy the holidays.

  • Sabreen60 : I’m not going to beat this dead horse, but the Repubs knee-jerk reaction to what Martin said is so typical. Martin gave “several” examples that this guy carried out against the slaves. Here is the comment of what he actually said: ““This became known as ‘Darby’s Dose,’ a punishment invented by Thistlewood that spoke only of inhumanity. And he mentions a similar incident in 1756, his time in relation to a man he refers to as Punch. ‘Flogged punch well, and then washed and rubbed salt pickle, lime juice and bird pepper, made Negro Joe piss in his eyes and mouth,’” Bashir recited. “I could go on, but you get the point,” Bashir said, concluding “When Mrs. Palin invokes slavery, she doesn’t just prove her rank ignorance. She confirms if anyone truly qualified for a dose of discipline from Thomas Thistlewood, she would be the outstanding candidate.”

  • AdLib : Murph – You nailed it in so few words, “a fake and big mouthed lout”.

  • funksands : Night Glenn. Have the best holiday you can. Hoping you remember all of the good times.

  • AdLib : Funk – Go Washington!

  • funksands : KT, I agree with you about his behavior. I just don’t see it having any kind of lasting impact of any kind, let alone electoral.

  • AdLib : glenn – A Merry Christmas to you and I will remember your husband on the 27th. Hope you have lots of family around and a wonderful holiday!

  • KillgoreTrout : I’m sorry funk. I don’t see this as a matter of survival. I see this as a matter of decorum and general decency. Bashir did more damage to our cause than good. he did something deplorable and should have has his hat handed to him. We just can’t bring ourselves to the much lower level as our opponents. I don’t mind the use of profanity, in context, and bashir didn’t outright use any profane words, but his inferrence was disgusting. I mean really, do we reallt want some sort of victory out of that? I surely don’t.

  • funksands : There’s a great rant by a southern gentleman about this whole Duck thing I’ll try to find. Very foul language, but an excellent take on the situation.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Howdy Beatleex

  • AdLib : Hey Beatlex! We’ve got a few topics going now, The Bible/Christmas, Christie and the GOP prospects in 2016 and the hypocrisy of the RW pushing for Bashir to be fired but for the Duck Dynasty racist homophobe to stay on the air.

  • funksands : X, we are simultaneously talking about Bashir, the ACA, the war on Christmas, and Christie

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib..there is nothing about Christie that I find amusing or impressive…he is a fake and big mouthed lout.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Fergie…thanks and I agree.

  • AdLib : Murph – Kind of what I figured, he’s a Republican, right? The RW propaganda Repubs are fed to manipulate them for ulterior motives is very effective. Look, they convinceed this man whose whole family is uninsured to sit on a ticking time bomb that will destroy him financially and he was willing to do it because he just accepted on faith that their propaganda was truth.

  • funksands : BTW, I’d like to give a shout-out to my state of Washington for having the highest % of sign-ups for the ACA in the country! :-)

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn…good night, have a cool yule…

  • funksands : Murph, Oregon will be fine. They did everything right on the set up except for the technology. They are getting their citizens a great deal.

  • Beatlex : Funk! Back at all of you

  • Fergie1 : Hi and well done again Murph. How awful that scare tactics and trying to label those most in need as ‘takers’ prevent them from what they need. And the Country needs for that matter – Health Insurance for all!

  • funksands : Hey X! Happy Christmas!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Funk…thanks… .I just had someone over at HP toss the Oregon mess at me…but even there door to door is starting to have an impact. The need is NOT going away.

  • funksands : Ad, imagine how petty Christie could be as President. The possibilities are staggering.

  • glenn : Alright, folks, I’m going to be the first one out the door this week. I want to wish everyone a very Merry Christmas. I hope you get to celebrate the way you want, with the people you want. If you’re so inclined, please pause for a moment of silence on the 27th, in remembrance of my best friend, my husband. Once again, have a great Christmas, and I’ll “see” you all either over this weekend or next Vox. G’night.

  • Beatlex : It is a little tough to discern what the topic is by the conversation.Chr istie or Bashir? Evening

  • AdLib : Murph – Imagine what a vindictive, power-abusing guy like Christie could do if he was President of the United States! Bush was bad enough but if America wants to see what its like to live in a nation where the government becomes truly dirty and corrupt, than by all means vote for Christie.

  • funksands : Murph, its a battle that is going to be fought house to house. Good on you for doing your part.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, i see this Bashir thing as being completely beyond the pale of either side. Yes, Palin, the duck dummies and others have said some pretty nasty things, but to wish someone would shit in someone else’s mouth? That is is just not acceptable. We really need to be far better than that.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- They guy was a good guy who works 50 and 60 hour weeks. He had not even given the ACA a look over. Why? The stuff he heard was that it was only for “freeloaders, takers, welfare wastes” and that is not how he sees himself.

  • AdLib : Murph – Very cool! So are you saying that this guy thought it was better for him not to have insurance for his family than sign up through the ACA because it’s evil Obama socialism?

  • pinkpantheroz : KT, I despair that the numbnuts in the GOPTP – and us – for that matter, get all a twitter about some journalists bagging of a bagger. Divertionary tactics keep out eyes off the ball. Get with the program, folks!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib and Funk….I think Ad Lib has the right spin on Christie….not the mob, not illegal, but awfully underhanded, petty, vindictive, with arm twisting and personal vendatta the plat du jour.

  • KillgoreTrout : That’s just it pinkpanther, they don’t make sense. They merely babble on.

  • funksands : Ad, that won’t deter conservatives from embracing him. Rationality will.

  • Sabreen60 : I don’t think he should have been terminated. Sarah and her ilk compare everything to slavery. For African Americans it’s how Jewish people feel about comparing everything to the Holcaust. Martin didn’t say anyone should defecate in Sarah’s mouth. He quoted a indignation suffered by slaves and said if Sarah thinks whatever is like slavery maybe she should experience it. But I guess it’s ok to call PBO a racist who hates white people said by elected and non elected people. The man has been called every name but the child of God and NO ONE has suffered any repercussion. Sarah said he paled around with terrorist. People yelled kill him and not a word of disgust. Quite frankly, I’d like to give Marin an award. *Rant Over *

  • funksands : Murph, they publicly said that they were very confident that if Christie had ever decided to run they would have crushed him with the crap they dug up on him.

  • KillgoreTrout : They sure would, glenn!

  • AdLib : Murph – I don’t know that Christie is mobbed up but I have heard from some out that way that he has an ugly track record as a pol, dirty deals handing out jobs and contracts to friends and this situation with the bridge lanes, anyone who would do that or allow it to happen isn’t abusing power for the first time.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Funk- Romney’s camp did not like what they saw but they would have seen that from any New Jersey mover and shaker as the record of their last several governors and lots of legislators shows.

  • funksands : KT, his crime was being foul and rude, not untruthful. I think we’ll survive.

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Murph, i really hope you are feeling better. Best wishes.

  • glenn : Pink and KT–The other good thing about the Bible and “Christians” is you don’t need facts–you only have to have faith, and all will be paradise!

  • KillgoreTrout : I disagree funk. He just gave the RW nutjobs more ammo to use against more rational liberals and dems. I think Bashir hurt the common cause.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Funk- Misery- indeed. I am busy ACA wise. I had a technician at my place today looking at our heating coils in a barn and ended up with him at my computer looking at ACA alternatives. We are going to meet at my place tomorrow to get him enrolled (and he is bringing along his brother and a sister). So…good in that sense….bad in that the need is so great and the GOP has worked so hard to deceive hard workers like this guy. NO INSURANCE….fam ily of six…..

  • funksands : Pink, that’s the great thing about the bible, it fits whatever situation you need it to.

  • AdLib : Bashir had a track record of making rude insults on his ex-show in a gentle delivery but those always rubbed me wrong. But of course there is a double standard, the “Progressive” network NEEDS to fire people who say rude things about Republicans but Republicans who say hateful things about Progressives…g et their own shows on Fox News.

  • funksands : Murph, this was probably mentioned earlier, but Romney’s camp wouldn’t touch him for VP after they got done with his background check.

  • pinkpantheroz : Kt, I agree about the cherry-picking, but, can anyone anywhere explain how they can make sense with SO MANY different versions of ‘The Bible” out there? Count is 29+ as far as I know

  • glenn : Murph–well, it’s good to know Christie is just a loud-mouthed lout, instead of a Mafia loud-mouthed lout!

  • KillgoreTrout : I agree Murph, but you have to remember, the GOP has no sense of shame. They truly are a group of sociopaths.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- I know re. Choice’s suspicions but I have some deep roots in Joisey and insider info-+– if there was real dirt in play there he would not have won reelection….th ere were a lot of people digging for it before they settled on a week Dem opponent. If they had nailed there were strong alternatives in the wings.

  • glenn : KT–One of my former principals had a sign behind his desk saying, “Words are deeds.” People like Bashir, the DDs, and all politicians and people in the public eye would do well to remember that.

  • KillgoreTrout : Absolutel glenn. Spot on. The Bible, which they never distinquish between the Old Testament and the New Testament is cherry picked, to support their completely no-spiritual agendas. You are absolutely right, they do the same thing with our constitution. Utterly despicable.

  • funksands : Hi Ad!

  • AdLib : Hey Funk! Happy War on Kwanza to you!

  • AdLib : Murph – Choicelady has some pretty strong suspicions that Christie has had dealings with mafia types along the way and being a politician in NJ, that is not so hard to believe.

  • funksands : Hey Murph. How’s Misery tonight?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hello Funk….

  • Fergie1 : You are so correct glenn. I did the same and silence was the overwhelming ‘response’. They had nothing and it was so evident.

  • glenn : Funk_-and right back atcha!

  • funksands : KT, for sure. He lost control and was rightly terminated. It was still worth it.

  • AdLib : Sabreen – You’re so right about MSNBC as a sheep in wolves clothing. They are owned by Comcast which is a very conservative corporation. Their game is to exploit the Progressives as their niche market but not to advance Progressivism. And the firing of Bashir over what he said…compared to the awful racism and hatred spewing out of still-employed Fox News people paints the real picture.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad – Cruz, Paul, Santorum, Rubio vs. Christie. I think it is still likely to end up that way anyway.

  • funksands : Hi Glenn, long time no see! Happy Christmaskwanzik a!

  • KillgoreTrout : funk, at this point, i don’t give a damn what Bashir thinks. He screwed himself, just like this duck dumbass did.

  • glenn : Hey Funk!

  • funksands : Melbourne, my next stop on my next visit there. Wonderful!

  • pinkpantheroz : gotcha, Funk, but it’s becoming prevalent all over the worlk. Melbourne, Victoria.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT- I agree re. Bashir- he should have stepped but then so should those responsible for the show’s scripting….it would have been honorable, but to see the GOP playing holier than thou in all of this is disgusting.

  • funksands : Pink, where in Oz are you?

  • funksands : Pink, Christmas is in mortal danger here in the States. It might disappear entirely without the constant vigilance of its upright citizens!

  • KillgoreTrout : hey, funk is in da house! What’s up funk?

  • glenn : KT–As many people keep pointing out to the rightwingnutjobs , the First Amendment is about the government restricting your freedom of speech–not a private business. But, just as they twist the Bible to suit their outrage of the day, they also twist the Constitution. When I was still posting at HP, I kept asking those who talked about President Obama “shredding the Constitution” to give examples of the so-called “shredding”, but all they could come up was executive orders. Of course, every other president has issued EOs, but they ignored me when I pointed that out.

  • AdLib : Murph – Can you imagine a Ted Cruz or Rick Santorum attacking Christie in a debate? Christie would eventually lose it! The best thing would be for Christie to be a front runner in the GOP primary and then have to take attacks from all sides. He would blow up!

  • funksands : KT, I bet he thinks it was still totally worth it.

  • pinkpantheroz : Hi, funk. surely you mean war on Commercial christmas?

  • funksands : I’m having a drink for you.

  • funksands : Hi Sabreen!

  • Sabreen60 : Hiya Funk!

  • KillgoreTrout : I think bashir should have reigned, without any cohersion from his employers. Just from a standpoint of journalistic responsibility, he should have resigned. He clearly went over the line of common decency. I can’t stand Sarah Palin, and take great joy when she is ridiculed, but Bashir just took it too far.

  • AdLib : Sabreen – Dems voted for Christie only because he pandered so much after Hurricane Sandy. Up to that point, he wasn’t very popular with Dems.

  • funksands : Evening everyone! Merry War on Christmas!!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn- I don’t think that Christie has mob links or dirty corporate money in his closet…..he is a governor of a state with a history of that and every Dem is looking to make the GOP White Knight into a Total Liar.

  • Sabreen60 : Speaking of bullshit. I can’t wait to see Issa perk walked out of Congress. I know he has more money than God, but if anybody is dirty, Issa is.

  • glenn : Murph–I agree with you about the loss of Bashir. But, of course, it’s “important” that DuckDummies (love that, KT), continue.

  • AdLib : Murph – You beat me to it, completely agree, Repubs are happy to order private companies to do what they want when it suits their mindset but when it comes to protecting the public or treating the majority fairly, they’re against it.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : The Loss of Bashir at MSNBC still enrages me. This Duck Dynasty crap outrage from the right is just the kind of bogus controversy that the GOP loves to distract the brain dead GOP base-dweller.

  • Fergie1 : Ha Ha Pink! That’s a good one. “Round John Virgin” Out of the mouths of babes as they say.

  • glenn : Murph–Am I understanding you correctly? You would be surprised by unsavory connections to Christie?

  • Sabreen60 : Both cable channels are corporate owned. MSNBC is a wolf in sheep’s clothing, IMO. All the teabaggers put pressure on MSNBC to get rid of the “brown” man. The names they called him on blogs I read were disgusting.

  • KillgoreTrout : glenn the RW idiots are trying to make this about “free speech.” That kills me, because they are either admitting that they don’t understand or support the 1st amemendment. And they always blather on about Obama shredding the Constitution. They make absolutely no sense and I gladly predict that more and more reasonable Americans will see this. How can any reasonable human being accept the bigotry and religious bullshit that these RWers continually display, without at some point, saying ENOUGH! Stop this medieval shit.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- his record as a States Attorney is one of abuse of office and of privilege. As to unsavory connections? Those would surprise me.

  • glenn : Pink–Love round John Virgin.

  • glenn : Fergie–Not to worry, I did get that part–the “amongst”, I mean.

  • AdLib : glenn – Yep, but hypocrisy is the hallmark of most Republican outrages. Sure, Bashir “should” have been fired for insulting one idiot woman but A&E shouldn’t be allowed to make their own business decisions about removing someone from one of their shows who expressed hatred for all gays and black people. Yeah, try to find anything resembling logic there.

  • pinkpantheroz : glenn and Fergie – reminds me of the child who drew a nativity scene with a happy fat chappie in the background. When asked whho that was, he said ’round John Virgin!” :)

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen- the Democrats who voted for him were lured by an effective PR campaign, outright lies about his record and accomplishments, the backing of Dems he had bought off who did not challenge his version of things, and the relatively unknown opponent

  • glenn : Murph–I agree. Can you imagine Christie’s response to some of the questions President Obama gets asked? There are many examples of how Christie belittles people–but then that is the gotp way–belittle those who don’t agree with you. That way, the base gets fired up!

  • Fergie1 : glenn, and I can’t spell at speed! “Amongst”!

  • AdLib : Fergie – Very much agree, the cards and calls from friends over the holidays does give such a warmth to this time of year.

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, I was surprised that so many Dems voted for Christie. They couldn’t have known his record. Anyway, it seems that some folks are very superficial. They liked his bullying tactics. Now it seems those tactics have come back to bite him in the ass.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad- and even without this mess his style is loathsome. He reeks of disrespect. Imagine the national press corps dealing with him?

  • glenn : Fergie–Oh, thanks. I get it now. I don’t know the Hail Mary, so I didn’t get the reference.

  • AdLib : Murph – And BTW, appreciated the King Henry quote!

  • AdLib : Murph – Choicelady has been saying for sometime that Christie has a lot of nasty stuff in his background that will really undermine a run for President. She alluded to mafia type tactics if not even some connections (I mean it is New Jersey). This bridge lane thing is a big problem for him on it’s own but also because it breaks open the dam for far more revelations that will be coming out.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : I thought the GOP was all about the open marketplace, the freedom of businesses to make the tough decision….The Network ditched the Duckman because they guessed he would be bad for business. More hypocrisy from the Party of the Double Deal.

  • Fergie1 : Yeh glenn, instead of “Amonst Women”. Sorry it’s in the prayer the Hail Mary!

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, I think it will give off a lovely (and comedic) light. They are so self unaware.

  • glenn : KT–Don’t you love all the outrage/hyperbol e the right wing nut jobs threw at Martin Bashir for his comments. Not a word was said about HIS first amendment rights–nor a word said about his leaving his show. Now, I see that the other DD’s are saying they won’t do the show if the old man goes. I say, “Stand up for your principles! Defend your old man. Don’t do the show! That will show those libs (who don’t watch the show anyway).” Anyway, I do hope they all quit.

  • AdLib : Sabreen – The WH Press Corps have become more like catty cheerleaders, always sticking a barb in instead of asking straightforward questions about the issues. Remember Chuck Todd’s big complaint was that they couldn’t take unflattering pictures of Obama? That’s about the sum total of it.

  • Fergie1 : The best part of Christmas for me is hearing from my friends far and wide and thanking them for their support, caring and friendship during the year. True and faithful friends, lending support to each other though good times and bad. And genuinely wishing that the year that follows is as gentle as humanly possible. We live in another land at present and miss them all.

  • KillgoreTrout : Oh no glenn, I didn’t take your comment that way at all.

  • AdLib : KT – I agree. How can the 2016 Repub primary be anything except a demolition derby with the Baggers feeling more betrayed than ever and the Establishment Repubs trying to grab back power. I’m really looking forward to it.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : AD LIB…Back to topics? I am game. The GOP Civil War…..Mr. Christie is in a mess. I suspect that he like King Henry in “Murder in the Cathedral” made a statement of this nature: “Can no one rid me of this troublesome priest?” only he subbed “mayor” for priest. And it is going to come back and bit him in his ample behind.

  • Sabreen60 : I meant “so much”

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Sabreen. Always nice to “see,” you.

  • glenn : Fergie–Okay, I think I’m sitting low in my seat tonight. A Monk Swimming?

  • Sabreen60 : I’m better now, thank you AdLib. I watched the yahoos *cough* I mean the WH Press Corps today. All I know is PBO has such much restraint it’s scary.

  • KillgoreTrout : I truly believe that the GOPTP are in deep shit. They continually show their spite and hatefullness as evident in this seemingly trivial broo haha about the duck dummy. They have shown that they have 0 respect or understanding of the 1st amendment, and to make it worse, they are defending a homophobe and racist. Their stupidity and hypocrisy knows no bounds.

  • glenn : Hey Sabreen!

  • glenn : Murph–definitel y shaken! It is a Slay Cocktail, after all.

  • Fergie1 : glenn – ‘Olive’! Now that’s funny and so cute! Similar to Frank McCourt’s book “A Monk Swimming”!

  • AdLib : you!

  • AdLib : Hey Sabreen! Hope all is well with yu!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn- shaken not stirred?

  • glenn : Fergie-+-thanks. I thought it was adorable, too.

  • Sabreen60 : Hello Planeteers! I was reading some of the comments, sorry I missed CL. I hope everyone is feeling well.

  • AdLib : glenn – Well, in Stand Your Ground states, people will be well within their rights to shoot down Santa as soon as his sleigh lands on their roof. And if he enters their house in the early morning through the chimney? Poor Mrs. Claus!

  • glenn : KT–I do understand what you are saying. I didn’t mean to imply that I thought your father was not a good person. We are all flawed in our own ways–we just have to figure out how to cope with our flaws–it takes some longer than others to figure out how to cope. And, none of us are always consistent in how we cope with our inner demons, as you say.

  • Fergie1 : glenn, ‘Olive’! Now that’s funny and so cute!

  • Fergie1 : glenn – ‘Olive’! Now that’s funny and very cute!

  • AdLib : Moving back to topics, any question what a massive civil war the Repubs are going to have in 2016? There is a real front of business Repubs stepping up against the Bagger Repubs in 2014 but when it comes to choosing their nom for President, doesn’t it look like 2016 will be a nuclear explosion in the GOP?

  • glenn : AdLib–“killing Santa”, indeed. As long as Santa is white, I don’t think there’s any danger of BOR “killing” him off.

  • KillgoreTrout : Thank you Ad! You understand.

  • KillgoreTrout : glenn, my dad was in essence, a very good man. he suffered more abuse than he ever gave me. He truly loved his family, but had some real nasty inner demons of his own. He never failed to be there for me when i neede him. In many ways, he made me strong. Very strong!

  • AdLib : maybe Bill O’Reilly’s next book will be “Killing Santa”?

  • AdLib : glenn – As KT said, it’s not a black and white thing, people are very complex things. There can be goodness and strength in someone who also is volatile. Not all people who do bad things, only do bad things. So it’s less frequent that I could hate someone who’s done something that’s messed up unless it’s part of a steady pattern. But if you have principles, when someone crosses the line, they cross the line.

  • glenn : Murph–perhaps we could make a “Slay Cocktail” with an olive as a garnish. Maybe a cherry, too, for Rudolph’s nose!

  • glenn : KT–I’m sorry to hear about your father, but it sounds as though you have finally broken the pattern. As AdLib says, it is usually passed down through generations. It must be so healing for you to realize how good and strong he was, despite his imperfections.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Olive and Slay….I don’t stand a chance.

  • AdLib : glenn – Very funny! Olive the Other Reindeer, love it!

  • AdLib : Murph – That’s why it’s sometimes called Santa’s slay!

  • glenn : Ad, et al–I have to share a cute story with you all. One of my friends was baking Christmas cookies with her daughter, who was about 3 or 4. They were choosing which cookies to give to Santa, and the little one said, “I want to give this one to Olive.” “Olive?” her mother asked. “Yes, Olive, you know Olive the other reindeer.”

  • AdLib : KT – That’s so difficult to have had to grown up with as a child. I know that can get passed down through generations but even though one doesn’t have the strength to resist following in that path, it’s still a wrong for them to put that upon their child as their father did to them. Sorry KT.

  • KillgoreTrout : He gave all of his strength and determination to see that he had a family, uninteruppted by divorce and and dispersion. I didn’t understand until many, many years after. He was a good man. He was a strong man. He was also an imperfect man, as we all are.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib: So,it really was “Grandma got blowed up by a Reindeer”?

  • AdLib : Murph – Ever wonder why Rudolph’s nose is glowing? That means he’s armed and will detonate in 30 seconds.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, normally I feared my dad. He was an alcoholic and could be indescribably abusive, both physically and emotionally. I didn’t realize, as a ckild, that he was doing everything he could to keep our family together. I didn’t know about the abuse he suffered as a child.

  • glenn : Murph–those pesky little elves!

  • Fergie1 : I’ll be back!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hi Ad Lib. The unfortunate part of that is that occupation tends to provide fertile recruiting ground for ELVES!

  • glenn : KT–yes, it is gratifying, and I try to choose things that the children will enjoy for the entire year, not for just one day.

  • AdLib : Hey Murph! My understanding is that we will be leaving military advisers in Christmas for decades after the war is eventually over.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hi Glenn

  • glenn : Hey Murph!

  • AdLib : I wonder, with wealth being so unfairly distributed, people slipping down the ladder economically, if the time is right for an anti-materialism push?

  • glenn : Ad–Glad to hear you are doing well. This is a bittersweet time of year for me. I love watching the children open their presents, but I miss my husband sharing the joy with me. He died on Dec. 27 four years ago, and I still miss him. That’s all I’m going to say about that, since I don’t want to be a “Debbie Downer” at this time of year.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : I declared war on Christmas but it counterattacked, outflanked me and won a decisive victory. Ho, Ho, Ho!

  • KillgoreTrout : glenn, i understood what you meant. Isn’t it really gratifying?

  • AdLib : That’s very cool to hear, KT!

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey glenn, I am doing great. I think I’ve made a great leap in my understanding of the world and the people in it. It has truly been a Satori. Meaning a sudden, yet powerful awakening. I can’t really explain it, but it happens every now and then, usually with many years in between.

  • AdLib : Fergie – Exactly. For me, Christmas is more about the family dinner and as I mentioned, watching my daughter open presents. I do like family holiday meals. that’s my favorite gift.

  • AdLib : Doing well glenn!

  • Fergie1 : Exactly Ad! Hence we take a stand and don’t do any of that – it’s actually so much more satisfying. But then again it’s easy to do when there are no young children depending on presents. But it sure is crazy!

  • AdLib : ppo – See you in a bit!

  • glenn : KT–oops–that’ s why I buy presents for my granddaughter and the other children in my life.

  • pinkpantheroz : Sorry, All, gotta take a break for some Chores.

  • AdLib : …what I look forward to is watching my daughter open her gifts. I appreciate the gifts I get but things don’t mean as much to me anymore.

  • glenn : KT–I’m okay, thank you. How about you? I have to agree with you about the enjoyment of watching the kids open their presents. That’s why I buy presents for

  • pinkpantheroz : Very true, Ad, very true. It does seem a dichotomy to moralize about goodness and kindness to others, to be interspersed with screeching ads tempting one onto buying lots of cheap ( and expensive) rubbish! KT is right as well, I’ve just received a Christmas card from a friend, which says on the envelope ‘Bring Christ back into Christmas’ not a bad concept at all, is it?!

  • AdLib : KT – That’s the way it is for me. What I look forward to is my

  • AdLib : What are the biggest stories around Christmas times? “Consumer spending this Christmas is up/down!” And the offensive trend of starting Xmas shopping on Thanksgiving Day! Forcing employees to work instead of have that holiday off? And idiots rushing away from their families to buy things. Well…I guess it depends on how you feel about your family?

  • glenn : Good evening, everyone. I wanted to get my message to CL before I said anything else, but I guess I missed her. Hey AdLib, how are you?

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey glenn, how are you my friend?

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, Chritmas mornig, with the tree and the Santa thing is really wonderful for children. It was a tremdous excitement for me and my brother and sister. What really occured to me as I grew older was how much my dad was delighted by the whole thing. I think he got more enjoyment watching us open our presents, than we as children had opening them. He was a tough guy, but Christmas made hi a child, just like his own children. I will always love him for that.

  • AdLib : Hey glenn!

  • AdLib : KT – You nailed it, more irony that on the day that celebrates Jesus’ birth, it’s all about materialism! And instead what do the RW Christians worry about? “They’re saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas!”

  • AdLib : ppo – But most people seem to like having it both ways, enjoying and affirming the message in those classic movies (add The Grinch Who Stole Christmas to the list…A Christmas Carol…damn, aren’t most Christmas stories anti-materialism ?) while simultaneously making buying things and getting things what it’s about for them.

  • pinkpantheroz : Agree, KT, but the insidiousness of media, outlets and peer pressure on Children and parents to spend to make them fortunes makes it difficult to stand back from all the hooha and think cogently on the reason for the Holiday in the first place.

  • glenn : Choice Lady–Hope you get to read this–I just clicked onto Vox and saw your post about the Nutcracker. I am going with my girls–my daughter, granddaughter, and two adult stepgrandaughter s on Christmas Eve to see the Nutcracker. We go every year–hope you enjoy it as much as we do. Merry Christmas!

  • Fergie1 : You’re right KT, but it has descended into a contact sport and the only people benifiting big time are the big stores. Besides it’s just not fun any more. Please excuse typos here and below!

  • AdLib : KT – And people go into debt buying Xmas presents that they can’t afford. My family has trouble ever saying what each wants for Christmas, even my 10 year old daughter when asked if she wants anything for Christmas said, “Not really.”

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey fergie! good to see ya.

  • Fergie1 : Oh Ad, don’t get me started on Malls – I avoid them like the plague any time of year!

  • KillgoreTrout : I think the celebration of Christ’s birthday should be anything but materialistic. Didn’t he advise to sell worldly poessessions and give the profits to the less fortunate? I don’t know, maybe that’s where the whole gift giving thing began!

  • pinkpantheroz : Hey, fergie1, open a bottle for me while you’re at it. Adlib, that’s the beauty of those types of classic movies where the ‘Be careful what you wish for’ message comes back loud and clear.

  • AdLib : Fergie – Evening! Actually, I get “mall fever” if I’m out shopping during the holiday crush. So many people buying so many things, surging all over…makes me dizzy just to be in there.

  • AdLib : It’s a little stretch but one could argue that A Christmas Story is anti-materialism too, the boy wants the Red Ryder BB gun and when he finally gets the material thing he wanted for Xmas, it injures him. Hey, I bet I could have a class on this at The Learning Network!

  • KillgoreTrout : I think the idea of gift giving started out in the spirit of generosity, that is closely tied to the holiday. But, it has become way too over emphecized.

  • Fergie1 : Ad, we are probably the last couple standing in the commercialized western world that do not even go near the shops at Christmas! Haven’t done for many years. Whay would we put outselves through that shemolzzle when we can relax at home and smile! :)

  • AdLib : ppo – So, adding to my list, It’s a Wonderful Life is also anti-capitalist.

  • pinkpantheroz : Absolutely right, Adlib. It would be nice if the movie were shown comercial free, but that won’t happen in a hurry, will it?

  • AdLib : There really aren’t too many voices nowadays sincerely decrying the materialism of Xmas. Many classic Christmas films though are all about that. Like A Charlie Brown Christmas, it’s very anti-materialist Christmas.

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey pink, whatever works for you!

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey pink, glad you can make it tonight. I don’t pay attention to ads any more. I just consider the source. (and motivation)

  • pinkpantheroz : Thanks, KT, but I prefer to use my eyes, because it gets distracting when you’re typing anf other comments ‘pop’ up. :)

  • AdLib : ppo – Yep, same here. I was thinking about how the anti-materialism message of Miracle on 42nd Street is so ignored when people watch it this season…especia lly because there are commercials throughout it! Kind of ironic.

  • KillgoreTrout : Pink, you should leave the popping sounds. They alert you to any new comments.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, no doubt. A self parody indeed. They are becoming more and more obvious as regards to their spiteful agenda.

  • pinkpantheroz : Thanks, Ad. Now, is everybody as driven nuts as I am with the incessant bombardment of ads specifically aimed at children, to drive their already frazzled parents into a shopping frenzy?

  • AdLib : Everybody got their Xmas shopping done?

  • AdLib : Yep, it will be After Christmas sales by the time we Vox next!

  • AdLib : ppo – Welcome! To turn off the popping sound, click the speaker icon in the upper left of the “Last Message” header.

  • pinkpantheroz : Merry Christmas, all. We won’t talk till afterwards. Ad, how do I turn off the ‘popping’ when entries come in?

  • AdLib : KT – Well you know Republicans, all giving is supposed to go to them. And this War On Xmas thing, isn’t it a bit of a self-parody at this point?

  • KillgoreTrout : I am doing quite well, my friend and I hope the same applies to you.

  • KillgoreTrout : Hi, and the war on Christmas reeks too much of O’reilly and Palin and all the other nincompoops. Ted Cruz asked that parents give their money set aside for their children’s presents, to his campaign! Holy shit, talk about a war on Christmas!

  • AdLib : Hey Kt. How are you this evening?

  • KillgoreTrout : Hello and Goodbye my friend. The Nutcracker was my young daughters favorite of Christmas stories. enjoy!

  • AdLib : Don’t forget to say “Hi!” or “Merry War On Christmas!” when you arrive!

  • AdLib : Cheers CL! Have a great evening and a merry merry to you!

  • choicelady : Hi to all my friends – I won’t be here tonight most likely. Off to a last minute decision to see “The Nutcracker”! So I wish you all the happiest of holidays, however you celebrate, and hope to see you next week. Merry merry!

  • AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. Hope to see you then!

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