• AdLib : KT – We have absolutely had comedy video Music Threads, movie scenes, etc. Anything that’s video works and it’s always good to have a bit of variety. SO yes, comedy and satire videos would be great.

  • KillgoreTrout : Thanks Ad, good to know. I have one musically, but I was wondering if we could make it about comedy and/or satirical vids. I think maybe I should keep it musical, After all, it IS the weekend music thread. Have a great weekend, and say kudos to your lovely, bright daughter.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, looking forward to your selections. I hope the RW wanna be cartoonists have a little more insight into reality this week.

  • AdLib : Night KT! What’s on tap for the Music Thread? Last week’s was very popular!

  • SallyT : Good night!

  • AdLib : Night Sally, have a great weekend and as always, looking forward to my Sunday Funnies!

  • AdLib : Night CL, rest well and have a great sit!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I want you to know I value your insight and experience and knowledge. Sweet dreams my friend.

  • AdLib : CL – Fine with me. I think the record for Vox Populi was past midnight!

  • SallyT : I have to travel to cartoon land. I haven’t been there for a couple of days and it takes awhile to travel it.

  • AdLib : CL – It does seem though like a necessary cycle. The Dems get corrupt, arrogant and uncaring when they’ve had power for too long but Repubs get destructive and dictatorial. So the Repubs need to cycle through their extremism once again and yes, it will allow the Dems to do good things then bad things but better that than the gridlock and sabotage of America that the Repubs now represent.

  • KillgoreTrout : Naw Ad, it’s just the pace of VOX.

  • SallyT : Good night, CL. And good night Adlib. And good night KT, my buddy!

  • choicelady : OK – I’m heading off to bed. If I’m going to follow funk’s lead and sit on my ass, I need my rest for that! Good night all!

  • choicelady : Yikes – it’s 11 pm. How did THAT happen?? Poor AdLib – we’ve kept you up a whole HOUR beyond our usual time. Sorry – but the evaluation of the GOP was indeed fascinating to ponder. It will be an interesting 3 years!

  • AdLib : CL and KT – My comment posted just after you two decided the same thing! My watch must be slow!

  • AdLib : Sally, I think Rand Paul has a bigger support base, all the Ron Paul supporters AND other baggers. Cruz just has some baggers, I think Rand tops Cruz with the loons.

  • KillgoreTrout : As long as it is not a stiff one.

  • choicelady : AdLib – we just did.

  • choicelady : AdLib – While a huge hunk of me roots for the demise of the GOP, something in me says it’s bad for the Dems – that they will get arrogant and over-reach, and in 40 years, we’ll be handing things over to the GOP. It’s the history of this nation TOO OFTEN. We have such a zero sum mentality!

  • KillgoreTrout : Already got it covered Ad.

  • SallyT : I think you are a gym sock, KT.

  • AdLib : CL and KT – Just a suggestion but I wonder if it is not a good time to agree to disagree on that issue. I don’t think there’s a chance of anyone being convinced either way at this point, don’t you think?

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, albeit a crazy one. ;)

  • choicelady : KT – you are a gem as well!

  • AdLib : CL – Love the pup tent comment! That sure seems where things are going. The open racism, blatant misogyny, willingness to destroy the US economy, it is institutionalize d insanity and only the craziest can excite the base. I think the 2016 Repub primary could be the last gasp of the GOP as a competitive national party and once 2020 comes along (a long wait) and if Dems take over more states and legislatures, as they should due to demographics, with redistricting, the Repubs will be a true minority party, as they truly are.

  • KillgoreTrout : No Sally. I’m saying she is a gem and one argument is not going to changes that.

  • choicelady : Sally – just so KT doesn’t say I’m a stoner!

  • choicelady : KT – missing persons is a category of police reporting even if it’s not a crime. The authorities parse out the details – a person with Alzheimers who wanders off is NOT a crime but still in that category. It might be helpful to find your state or county stats and see how they report things.

  • SallyT : Are you saying CL is stoned, KT?

  • KillgoreTrout : OK CL, let’s leave this alone. I still love ya you crazy diamond!

  • SallyT : In that case, AdLib, I think it might be Cruz.

  • AdLib : Sally – Right. I think that the GOP has been de-volving year after year to the point of imploding by getting behind a truly terrible, extremist candidate and 2016 may be that year. The stars seem aligned. The Baggers are desperate, they’ve been forced to swallow the noms of McCain and Romney, they’re convinced that the Repub losses of the WH are because they didn’t get their candidate nominated, I think 2016 could be the year the GOP jumps the shark as a party.

  • choicelady : KT – I did not say that.

  • SallyT : It is the local and state government officials that are doing the most damage. Washington doesn’t do much on anything but filibuster.

  • choicelady : Sally – it’s the local areas, at least state level or Congressional, where we need to focus. We ignored too many of those races during the past 30 years, and the Baggers and other extremist GOP got a major toe hold on those seats.

  • KillgoreTrout : You just said that missing persons were an indication of crime. A lot of people disappear on their own. I once disappeared from my home in Ohio and didn’t tell anyone where I was or where I was going. Is that a crime? It happens a lot. What if someone just had a mental problem and wondered off? Is that a crime? You are trying to convince me that that crime stats are basically accurate. I am saying, no way. It’s basic math. You cannot add or subtract numbers that haven’t been accounted.

  • choicelady : AdLib – good data research done by a number of people whom I respect would agree with you. There are a couple of exceptions such as rape and crimes against immigrants where reporting holds its own jeopardy, but otherwise, yes I think that’s accurate.

  • SallyT : I just hope that the local elections have gotten wise to the mistakes they made in electing these TeaBaggers. Okay, maybe they haven’t…..

  • choicelady : AdLib – I am presuming, GOP arguments to the contrary, that no rational Republican would even THINK about running in 2016. The “big tent” seems to have morphed into a pup tent with a moat around it and machine gun turrets at the corners. All extremism, all of the time.

  • AdLib : Just my opinion but I think a majority of victim-related crimes are reported one way or another. When that number goes down, I think it reflects a reduction of reported and unreported crimes.

  • SallyT : Oh, don’t get me wrong, AdLib, I know it wouldn’t matter but was just wondering how it would first come across and if the TeaBaggers get their way and how fast……either way.

  • choicelady : KT – no one said they did.

  • AdLib : Sally – I don’t know that it would matter. Fox was anti-Romney at the beginning then when none of the others could best him, they finally embraced him. As for the Kochs, they spent $300 million in 2012 and got almost nothing to show for it. I think that if the Baggers rally around Rand, all the Kochs’ money won’t matter. And Fox loves Rand Paul so I don’t think they would try to oppose him, even if they favored Jeb Bush or Christie.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I am not saying crime is rampant or on the decline. I am merely saying that the government accounts do not take in the total number of crimes, crimes of any sort.

  • choicelady : Sally – yes. Missing persons are a category of crime. Particularly juveniles.

  • SallyT : Don’t they count missing persons as such….missing?

  • choicelady : KT – that is rather my point. They are not proof of murder. I’m sure the three live women would not have been happy to be declared dead rather prematurely.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, once again, a missing person is not proof of a murder.

  • SallyT : Or Fox news?

  • choicelady : KT – have it your way. If you think crime is rampant, you need to push for a greater police intervention, and more money and tougher laws to get every single perp – including people such as you rather than giving them a chance – off the streets and into jails. More jails, more prisons, better data. If you’re sure we are overrun with crime, and it’s not being reported, then sure. Go for it.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I have lived all over America, and have worked with and known personally hundreds of people. I have also lived 59 years thus far. I think I have a pretty good handle on reality.

  • SallyT : Do you think the Kochs would go for Rand Paul?

  • SallyT : It’s an unreported crime because no one has heard the crash until the neighbor broke down the door to the house and they escaped.

  • AdLib : Si Sally, I agree. Rand will fill Ron’s shoes but I think he could be both a bigger success and failure than his dad. Baggers are frothing right now, they are losing power and influence and watching Obama succeed here and there. If they are able to get one of their own, such as Rand Paul, as the GOP nom which they feel is their right after letting Romney and McCain get it, the GOP could see their biggest losses in recent times. So I’m all for it.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL that is exactly what I’m arguing against. There is no way to come up with accurate numbers, if those numbers are never recorded. I mean really, it is basic math. I know what you are saying, but you can’t count crimes by any number not reported. Yes, we can say that the recorded numbers are up or down, but what I’m saying is that recordered numbers only do not give an accurate picture.

  • choicelady : KT – it proves you’re wrong. Once a murder is known, it becomes part of the data. You cannot report a murder that is unknown. THREE women. Now their fates are known. Murder. How can you report a murder if perhaps the victims – as in the OTHER three women in Cleveland – are ALIVE?

  • choicelady : KT – I have knowledge of unreported hate crimes. I know who was the victim, who went scott free – and it’s irrelevant to the data. The data show that the people being attacked who do have reported hate crimes are not the same category as these unreported crimes. So what? The victims of reported hate crimes are showing an increase in race related crime AGAIN after a large number of years of hate crimes being mostly directed against Muslims and LGBT people. That’s useful to know.

  • SallyT : AdLib?

  • SallyT : Unless you are the cow and there are flies on your butt. That is personal. Thank God, you have a flyswatter of a tail!

  • KillgoreTrout : They weren’t until how many years later? They were listed as missing, and missing is not a crime in itself. This is a great example of what I’m saying.

  • choicelady : KT – in your personal experience, period. You do not define what happens elsewhere. It is entirely personal and therefore NOT data, not helpful.

  • KillgoreTrout : Exactly Sally!

  • choicelady : KT – and just how big a percentage of unreported crimes do you REALLY believe we are not tallying on issues such as murder? Do you think over half of all murders are not reported? Twenty percent? Five? You have no way to say. Which is why the issue of crimes up or down are always based on reported crimes.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, these are not “stories.” I’m talking about reality and not JUST MURDERS.”

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, and you can not count those that are unreported. You, above most people should know that it’s not impossible to kill and eliminate all possible evidence that a crime was every committed. And, once again, we are talking about all crime, not just murders.

  • SallyT : And probably as successful.

  • choicelady : KT – I have been arguing NOT that the statistics are all together accurate overall but in relation to past data. PERIOD. We know the gray areas – crimes against immigrant, rapes, some hate crimes – where victim reports are well below the numbers reported. Lots of people get away with drug crimes. We know that, too. But we CAN see what IS reported is up or down compared to the past ten, twenty years.

  • SallyT : Rand Paul would be a younger version of old dad.

  • AdLib : I don’t know that anyone who wasn’t seen by the Baggers as a legit Bagger could win after Romney and McCain lost, they’ve got to think it’s their turn so I don’t know that Obama-hugging Christie or moderate and unfortunately brothered Bush could win with them.

  • SallyT : I am talking about the three found that were held captive, CL.

  • choicelady : Sally – Do you mean the women murdered recently or the three released a couple of months ago? The three murdered would be murder stats.

  • AdLib : Hillary would have a cake walk over Rand Paul!!!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, yes, you are arguing that point. You give me the impression that you believe the crime stats to be relatively accurate. I am arguing that they are not.

  • AdLib : Right now, I’d root for Rand Paul.

  • SallyT : They were missing. No crime until they were found. Right?

  • AdLib : So, if you were to guess now, who do you think would be the 2016 Repub nom for President?

  • SallyT : KT, where were those three woman in Ohio counted?

  • choicelady : KT – the numbers of hidden murders is miniscule. Your stories are just not viable evidence of anything significant.

  • KillgoreTrout : No CL, we can’t. Not without real numbers.

  • AdLib : Sally – That’s why Rubio has now suddenly jumped on the “Let’s destroy the US economy if Obama won’t agree to kill Obamacare!” It’s crazy that Repubs have to burnish their insanity credentials to be contenders for the GOP nomination for President.

  • SallyT : Christie was third on that poll, AdLib. Like I said to CL, it was showing how Rubio had dropped. I know it is early but it is so fun to watch them sweat it.

  • choicelady : «link»

  • choicelady : KT – Black on Black homicides are DOWN. Here is a story. You cannot hide these killings.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, again. if somebody wants another person gone, it can happen, and does happen. That may be reported as a missing person, but it is not reported as a murder. Further investigation may come to that conclusion. but it is not a certainty.

  • AdLib : Sally – The Bush name is toxic to Dems and indies. And the Repub primary voters won’t like him, not extremist enough. What would be interesting is if he and Christie are in the race, they could split the Repub status quo vote and open the door for a Rand Paul to win!

  • SallyT : CL, Rubio was at the bottom on that poll. Yes, thirsty guy. That was the point they were making was how he had dropped because of immigration.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, again, you are trying to distinguish one sort of crime from another. Again, we are talking about the stats that say crime has gone down. It is said which crimes. It’s a geralization and you know that generalizations are rarely, if ever accurate.

  • AdLib : My partial list of the 2016 Repub Pres. primary candidates: Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Paul Ryan, Chris Christie, Josef Stalin, George Wallace, Charles Manson and Bane.

  • SallyT : Jeb Bush was second in that poll. Of course it is early but you know how they like to poll.

  • choicelady : KT – no one is arguing against you on that statement.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, once again, you are making distinctions regarding CRIMES. The stats we are arguing do not make such distinctions. I’m sure there are stats that do, but we are talking about crime, in general. How many rapes go unreported every day? Just because a crime is not reported, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

  • AdLib : Sally – It’s very early but that does tickle me, if Rand Paul is the Repub front runner! The man with a racist aide who only recently quit, the man who claimed he would have voted against the CRA. The extremist nutjob who wants to get rid of SS and Medicare? Sure, let him win the GOP primary, please?

  • choicelady : Sally – that’s not a very impressive field, to be sure. I can see how even Paul could trump Thirsty Guy. (Rubio?)

  • choicelady : AdLib – I know that’s what they’re going to try to say, but their arguments are tired, worn out, stupid, and will generate even LESS enthusiasm in 2016 than they did in 2012 – and we all saw how well THAT worked for them.

  • SallyT : I just saw him at the top of the poll I saw.

  • choicelady : KT – no one is claiming we have accurate numbers but that you can see what categories of crimes are going up and which going down among reported crimes. YOU can’t argue any differently because you have not a shred of proof. That really matters.

  • SallyT : Ahead of Cruz, VP loser from last year, and oh that thirsty guy.

  • AdLib : CL – But that’s all the Repubs will have. “We want to take away health care from 30 million people so they can die early and go bankrupt! We want to make poor people go hungry and without shelter! We want to ship 11 million Latinos out of the country! We want to force women to have babies! We want to give more money to the wealthy and take more money from the 99%!” That’s about the size of it.

  • choicelady : Sally – ahead of WHOM in the polls??? Rand Paul???? That’s pretty creepy I must say.

  • choicelady : KT – HOW do you get unreported murders? Bodies may not have been found, but the VAST MAJORITY of murders are hardly unreported!

  • SallyT : Rand Paul is ahead in the polls

  • KillgoreTrout : Oh cl, you above others know that there are unreported murders. Again. I am not classifying types of crimes, but all crimes. There is no way to form accurate numbers when only a percentage are recorded. It’s basic mathematics.

  • choicelady : AdLib – somehow running for president on “let’s destroy the world’s economy” lacks a certain, mmmm, resonance.

  • AdLib : In fact, I think it will be one of the most vicious themed GOP primaries, even outshining the 2012 ones in hatred. With Ted Cruz and Rand Paul being the ones to beat for the far right vote, it’s going to be entertaining and a demolition derby.

  • SallyT : KT, I don’t reverberate, I am out of batteries.

  • SallyT : But the cow did shit in the woods and it was a cow pie in the eye.l

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey funk. Later gator!

  • AdLib : The cow claimed his udder innocence.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, do you mean the one who’s reverberations are in question?

  • SallyT : The cow was high on grass

  • AdLib : Well, Ted Cruz and Rand Paul and even Marco Rubio are going to run for President in 2016 on trying to shut down and destroy the economy to stop the ACA. Let’s see Chris Christie try to top that!

  • choicelady : KT – because if there were lots of murders that were unreported, you’d notice. That has been one of the things women have said – the stats on rape are not revealing the extent of the problem. But once you do that, you can see if the incidents are up or down on REPORTED rapes.

  • KillgoreTrout : Not at all funk. I sit on my ass every day. ;)

  • SallyT : The cow need MOO infor.

  • KillgoreTrout : Have a very nice weekend AB. Glad you could experience VOX POPULI.

  • AdLib : If someone committed a crime in a forest and there was no one there to hear it, was it a crime? What if only a cow witnessed it but refused to testify?

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, well then how can you give numbers that say crime is rising or falling if you only have a percentage of crimes committed? Seriously?

  • choicelady : Sally – that is almost exactly the official position.

  • choicelady : KT – the unreported crimes are NOT in the tally. If they are not reported, they cannot be tallied. You say you committed a crime. No you did not. You were not arrested, therefore what you did was not considered a crime. NOT in the reports. Not projected. Did not exist as a crime. We don’t report what has no record.

  • SallyT : KT, how about “Based on the information obtained on reported crimes the figures have gone down. But, this does not include unreported crimes that we have no way to calculate.” Did you hear the tree crash?

  • AdLib : CL – I have that same funny feeling and in the midst of a recovery, I have a funny feeling he’s not going to agree to more severe cuts in spending.

  • KillgoreTrout : What don’t you know AN? I too am a bit behind the pace here.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I just have this funny feeling that Obama is not going to kill ACA. Just a feeling…

  • KillgoreTrout : Sorry CL. If crimes go unrecorded, they can not be figured into any final tally. You may speculate, but specualation is not fact.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I’d be damned surprised if the GOP will do that. They’ll posture and shout, but Boehner will get the votes with Dems and the needed GOP who are not at risk of their seats.

  • AdLib : If they don’t get Obama to agree to kill the ACA, that is?

  • AdLib : So does anyone think the Repubs are really going to destroy our economy and refuse to raise the debt ceiling and fund the government?

  • SallyT : I’ll tell him that, Funk. And you live where? Not that far away, Funkie.

  • choicelady : KT – so what? If they are not reported, then what we look at are only reported crimes as they increase or decrease. Again – there are almost NO unreported murders. Too messy to hide. No unreported bank robberies. We know the reliability of stats and can see what is increasing, what is decreasing. That’s all anyone is saying. For all eternity we KNOW there are more crimes than what is reported, but so what? That is not the issue – it’s always been true.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, there was no distinction as to if there was a victim or not. Many rapes and robberies go unreported. How many crimes on Wall St. are reported or recorded? Crime is anything that goes against established law.

  • funksands : :-)

  • AdLib : Thanks Assumed!

  • funksands : Ad: :s-)

  • funksands : I’m toddling off too. Too much good cheer tonight. Must sleep. Take care and have a fabulous weekend. Sally get that worthless hubby of yours working on something!

  • AdLib : Funk – I never begrudge anyone a day of sitting on their ass. I only complain when they sit on mine.

  • KillgoreTrout : OK CL. That only applies to reported crimes. That gives no true indication of the number of crimes committed. Then you have to catorgarize what each crime was, rape, murder, drug poestion, drug dealing wall street crime….etc. There is no way an accurate number can be counted. There are crimes that happen, everyday in my apartment complex that never get reported.

  • funksands : Nice!!

  • SallyT : KT, did you hear the tree crash?

  • choicelady : funk – I’m not jealous. I’m sitting on my ass tomorrow, too.

  • Assumed Name : ‘Night funk; and likewise, ALib, for you and your family.

  • choicelady : Assumed – I LOVE books like that, too. Enjoy!

  • SallyT : Good night Assumed. Have a great weekend with or without nuts. Take that anyway you wish….

  • funksands : I’m sitting on my ass tomorrow. Hope you all aren’t too jealous.

  • choicelady : Good night Assumed! Thanks for the virtual cookies!!

  • Assumed Name : Mmm…brownies– with walnuts, most definitely, AdLib!!

  • funksands : Night Assumed!

  • AdLib : Night Assumed! Hope you and your son have a great weekend!

  • funksands : CL, your brevity is breathtaking… LOL

  • choicelady : funk – thank you. In less than 1000 words.

  • Assumed Name : Well, after complaining about having conservative students, I’m off to read a bit of Vince Flynn before snoozin’. (Go figure!!) Peace to all.

  • KillgoreTrout : AN, that’s OK. I think everybody here has had that experience. I still do, every week. No biggie.

  • funksands : KT , they’re only bogus if they are counted differently from year to year. If they are counted the same, then they are no bogus because the calculations are the same.

  • choicelady : KT – we are NOT measuring what is not reported. Why do you keep insisting that we are? NO one is doing that. I don’t know how to say it any more clearly.

  • AdLib : OT but saw a brief interview with Paul Ryan who was asked if he thought things would be better right now if he and Romney had won and he said, “There is no doubt in my mind.” Isn’t that the problem with extremists? There is never any doubt in their mind, especially when they’re dead wrong.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, I had an experience in Boston where the cops came upon us, while sitting in a van, getting stoned. They took an ounce of weed from us and told us to get lost. Crime statistics are bogus.

  • funksands : Assumed don’t worry about it. After CL gets done posting her 1000 word essays, everyone else’s post go a lot quicker. Oh look at that ;-)

  • Assumed Name : Hmm…I don’t know Kilgore.

  • SallyT : KT, I don’t think you can measure unreported crimes…..are they a crime if they aren’t reported. If no one is in the forest, does a tree falling make a crash>?

  • choicelady : Assumed and KT – I got a bill passed to report hate crimes in CA. Those are absolute numbers NOT projections. They are under-reported, but we know that. It’s always true. So we can see whether the reported crimes are going up or down. That tells us a lot. We had a huge uptick in reported hate crimes against LGBT people around Prop. 8. We had huge upticks in hate crimes against people who wore turbans who were not even Muslim because perps are incredibly stupid. We had vandalism, assaults, even murder etc. against immigrants around those issues. So we can see what is increasing and against whom and what is stable or decreasing for the moment. That is very helpful. And all police jurisdictions are required to report, have an easy system to report, and we do education work on what constitutes a hate crime that is MANDATED training for every police department, sheriff’s office, etc. That’s how we can see what is happening.

  • Assumed Name : CL I agree with your assessment of the new Jim Crow; and KT, I’m a slow reader and now see I’ve just repeated questions others have already asked…sorry about that. (Boy, this all goes rather fast!)

  • SallyT : Still fraud, CL, and many, many, got away with it and still are.

  • KillgoreTrout : AN, that is exactly what I’m saying. How can a number be measured if it is not actually counted? There are unreported crimes that happen every day in every state. How can that be measured?

  • KillgoreTrout : I’m sorry CL, that just doesn’t jive with common sense and experience. You can’t measure something that is never reported.

  • AdLib : Glad you joined us Assumed! Cookies and all! Next week…brownies?

  • Assumed Name : Night, Murph.

  • AdLib : KT – You seem to be talking about victimless crimes and on that count, I agree but when it comes to crimes where there are victims, I think the numbers CL cites have a consistency from year to year. That is, the percentage of unreported crimes where there is a victim is relatively consistent.

  • Assumed Name : Thanks, Murph–so am I.

  • choicelady : Night Murph – sweet dreasm!

  • SallyT : When I was young, KT, I was with a date and we were under age and he had beer. The Police just took the beer. They do that with drugs now. Don’t report but do toot up!

  • funksands : Ad. Nope. No mystery at all. Cheap and easy profits never want to go to waste.

  • choicelady : Sally – a lot of the prosecution of specifically mortgage fraud is made impossible by over a decade of legal changes that made what happened NOT ILLEGAL. But our US Attorney IS prosecuting where he can, and I get the press releases when the cases are either entered or a verdict rendered. Most of these prosecutions are in federal DISTRICT courts, not in DC, and there are quite a number of convictions. But the banks got their insulation well ahead of the events, and outside of clear illegalities such as insider trading, there is nothing much that remains illegal. That’s why Dodd Frank and other legislation is so important – it has to be made ILLEGAL again!

  • funksands : Night Murph!

  • Assumed Name : KT I’m not following, and so just for clarification: are you saying that crimes are under-reported, or that since the absolute number of crimes are not known them the statistics are inaccurate? (If the former, I see your point and then wonder how does one know that crimes are under (or over) reported; if the latter, I’m thinking that stats are a matter of probability as opposed to an exact number…as far as I understand these things.)

  • SallyT : Night Murph! Stay safe!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, how do I know? Let me say, life experience. In 59 years and many living locations, I have a semblance of what I’m talking about. I’ve committed many crimes that went unreported (drug possession or dealing). It happens in vast numbers, numbers that are never recorded.

  • AdLib : Not much mystery as to why so many forces put money behind defeating pot legalization laws.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Assumed….so glad you joined us tonight.

  • AdLib : Happy weeding, Murph! Sleep well!

  • choicelady : KT – the unreported crimes do NOT figure into the stats. Only the reported ones. Again – the digging into who reports and who does not show a pretty constant level of non reporting so if you’re comparing ONLY REPORTED CRIMES then you can see if they are going up or down.

  • AdLib : Sally – I think there are a wide range of reasons for crime dropping, including increased security and surveillance but not limited to that. As CL mentioned, there’s more community action nowadays, less unwanted and neglected kids, etc.

  • SallyT : Funk, I think that fraud is Identity and that is way up! But not the bank fraud….mortgag es…..no they get away with it.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Time for me to go….rained today and that means the ground will be ready for weeding in the AM. Fun!

  • funksands : There’s a lot more money and less risk in LEGAL Fraud anyway…

  • choicelady : Sally – I think that’s true. We had a rash of bank robberies here a couple of years ago – and the guys (and one woman) got caught due to the cameras and television that showed the tapes. People ratted them out, they got caught. So yeah – bank robberies finally just flat ENDED. Kinda deterred others from their ‘fifteen minutes of fame’! It is a lot harder to pull these things off indeed.

  • KillgoreTrout : How can anumber that doesn’t exist figure into number projected or reported? Really, how can that be accurate? If someone is mugged and doesn’t report it, how can that possibly be figured into a statistic?

  • SallyT : Well, not big fraud….they get away with it!

  • funksands : Sally, I think that you are right. That’s why those types of crimes have fallen a lot, but fraud statistics have stayed pretty level.

  • AdLib : All be cool, KT!

  • SallyT : Okay, I know that I said this earlier but I think certain crimes are down because of technology. You can’t write a bad check anymore or steal a car with GPS. Banks are much harder to rob with cameras all over the place, etc, etc.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT- Ad Libs link is right on. By the way, the defense tried to get the judge to drop the Manslaughter charge. She didn’t. And the Prosecution tried to get the judge to add a charge of Child Abuse Resulting in Death. She didn’t.

  • KillgoreTrout : OK Ad, I give.

  • choicelady : KT – YOU cannot base anything on unreported crimes because if they are UNreported, how do YOU know about them other than anecdotally?

  • SallyT : KT, I love you! You are holding your own tonight!

  • choicelady : KT – they have NEVER been totally reported so you’re comparing ALL reported crimes in ALL the periods after WW II. That is apples to apples. You have NEVER reported unreported crimes. So of ALL reported crimes, the numbers are declining. There is nothing phony about that observation. You do not – do NOT – have a lot of dead bodies lying around unreported. Just don’t.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT The evidence for both crimes was the same. The evidence could be applied to either 2nd Degree or Manslaughter (per the judges ruling). If the jury does not find the person guilty of Murder in the 2nd Degree, they may find the person guilty of Manslaughter. Failing that, the person is Not Guilty.

  • AdLib : KT – Here’s the link again to that article which explained that manslaughter was one of the charges the jury could choose from along with 2nd Degree murder. «link»

  • KillgoreTrout : No CL, I am basing the observations on unreported crimes. That means there is no way to tally the actual number of crimes.

  • Assumed Name : Murph…you’re right, of course (ref teaching & unholy cv’s). I just think I really need to be elsewhere…so I’ll continue to work on it.

  • SallyT : Of course, that is how the south kept their slaves after the Civil War…..they start putting blacks in prisons and using them on Chain Gangs. Also, started the “Blacks are always in trouble or causing trouble” excuse.

  • choicelady : Assumed – I also agree about meth!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I didn’t say they went up. I said merely that the numbers are not a true indicator. Come on, how could they be when they are not reported? I’m not a stats major, but come on. Common sense tells me the numbers are not accurate as described.

  • choicelady : Assumed – that is the real issue for me. Even as crime numbers go DOWN, sentences and numbers of people tried, convicted, and jailed are up for SOME crimes and particularly depending on who did it. That is a good thing Obama got through – leveling the sentencing on some drugs. But the “New Jim Crow” of planted evidence, and unequal justice is a huge, huge problem. That IS the ‘job security’ for the prison industry complex.

  • funksands : Ad, its as if a 1/3 of the illegal workers in this country were not only made legal, but their wages were dropped by 90%. Do you think that states would feel that? I think they would

  • choicelady : KT – you are basing the observations on reported crimes.

  • AdLib : Funk – No one really talks about how the slave labor market in prisons contributes to unemployment and low wages around the country but 2.26 million prisoners working at slave wages has a real impact.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Funk…I am really looking forward to your article. I actually have a use for it.

  • choicelady : KT – the numbers go up and down despite crimes being unreported so how can you say they go UP if you don’t trust the numbers? The reluctance to report is pretty clearly static except in the cases of physical injury such as murder. That does NOT go unreported – there are bodies. Same with other crimes such as assault which can’t really go unreported. Bank robbery etc. What does not get reported are crimes such as rape where the victim has some autonomy. But if you think they go up, then you have to note the figures go down. There are just way fewer dead people and way fewer major crimes and far fewer reports of all kinds EXCEPT hate crimes and rape which ARE up.

  • Assumed Name : Ref crime (to anyone), regardless of he statistics, it’s not as if all crime were of a piece. Although I’ve never consumed street drugs, many people currently incarcerated are “in” for insanely long sentences for non-violent crimes such as possession. (Clarity: I feel that people who run meth labs (which are both dangerous and unhealthy, esp when children are about) or who are engaged in violent behavior associated with smuggling or selling illegal drugs should receive stiff sentencing.)

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, how can you possibly base numbers on crimes that are not reported? That just doesn’t jive with reality.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Assumed…yes I think the added security is a good idea for where I live, and so are the dogs. As to teaching….a word of advice, do not let your teaching time lapse…get a new job before moving….holes in a resume are a huge problem (this form one who sat on lots of hiring committees)

  • funksands : Murph, it’s a disease that billions of dollars are spent annually to make sure we never diagnose, and never cure. The PP Industry is just a piece of that mess….

  • KillgoreTrout : Murph, he was never tried for manslaughter. That is my point. The jury deliberated only on the charge of 2nd degree murder.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Funk – it illustrates so many places where we are going wrong.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, that’s my point. I don’t trust the numbers. I don’t because a lot of crimes do go unreported. So how could the numbers be accurate?

  • AdLib : KT – Nope, the verdict was Not Guilty all by itself. That meant they did not find him guilty of 2nd Degree or Manslaughter. Think of it as a multiple choice type situation, if they couldn’t check the 2nd Degree Box, they had to consider the Manslaughter box, if they couldn’t check that box, they checked Not Guilty.

  • choicelady : Sally – of all the issues about NSA, it is the use of Booz Allen and other private contractors that worries me, too. You know I think the Libertarians hate government because it provides constitutional barriers against excess. Well they do NOT object to mercenaries, and now Monsanto – pushing its GMOs on undeveloped nations – has just purchased Xe (Blackwater) to be, I think, it’s private army overseas. This is horrifically dangerous!!!

  • funksands : Murph, good idea. I can’t think of a more vile and toxic subject.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Funk…have you thought of taking all your private prison info and putting it into a single article here. It would come in handy.

  • SallyT : And, the cost savings is not passed on to the consumer. Profits to the prison and stores.

  • funksands : The top paying private prison is in Tennessee where they pay their prisoners 50c an hour.

  • Assumed Name : Just caught up: Murph, my parents have tons of surveillance, and it brings them peace of mind, and surely that’s worth something, esp living in an isolated area. (I tried it, but just felt very uncomfortable feeling “guarded.” I am considering joining our esteemed dog lovers, however.) also, to answer your questions, I’ve been writing, and there are two teaching positions in my field that look promising in an area I would like to live. (Even if they fell through, I still would choose the area over teaching per se…I desperately want out of GOP territory.)

  • funksands : Ad, your math skills seem to be operation very well.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT The lesser charge was Manslaughter and he was found Not Guilty on that one too.

  • choicelady : KT- the failure to report is pretty constant. So if reported crimes are dropping from petty vandalism to murder (and one cannot really hide body counts) then crime is DOWN. If you cannot trust the figures as they fall – and it’s NOT in the police interest to HAVE them fall – then you can’t trust them as they go up either. These are longitudinal studies of total numbers over several decades. That is reliable info.

  • AdLib : Funk…hmm…jus t doing the math…taxpayers pay CCA $74M and rakes in profits of $35M -$50M…am I reading that right? If so, doesn’t that mean taxpayers are overpaying them by $35M – $50M?

  • funksands : The following companies use significant amounts of prison labor to manufacture products: IBM, Boeing, Motorola, Microsoft, AT&T, Wireless, Texas Instrument, Dell, Compaq, Honeywell, Hewlett-Packard, Nortel, Lucent Technologies, 3Com, Intel, Northern Telecom, TWA, Nordstrom’s, Revlon, Macy’s, Pierre Cardin, Target Stores, and many more.

  • KillgoreTrout : but the decision was not guilty of 2nd degree murder. So, why didn’t the jury have to deliberate lesser charges? I’m not trying to be a dick here, I truly don’t understand why a lesser charge was not adjudicated?

  • SallyT : Funk, that is one of the main reasons I don’t like the NSA using private contractors. Whose to say who they will sell the info to. Maybe to get more prisoners……. .

  • funksands : KT: “According to the Left Business Observer, the federal prison industry produces 100% of all military helmets, ammunition belts, bullet-proof vests, ID tags, shirts, pants, tents, bags, and canteens. Along with war supplies, prison workers supply 98% of the entire market for equipment assembly services; 93% of paints and paintbrushes; 92% of stove assembly; 46% of body armor; 36% of home appliances; 30% of headphones/micro phones/speakers; and 21% of office furniture. Airplane parts, medical supplies, and much more: prisoners are even raising seeing-eye dogs for blind people.”

  • AdLib : I’ve posted this before, here’s a graph showing the rise in prison population after the War on Drugs was declared: «link»

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Filner and Weiner are distracting the GOP form Vitter and the Governor of the Appalachian Trail.

  • funksands : “Last year the Corrections Corporation of America (CCA), the nation’s largest private prison company, received $74 million of taxpayers’ money to run immigration detention centers. Their largest facility in Lumpkin, Georgia, receives $200 a night for each of the 2,000 detainees it holds, and rakes in yearly profits between $35 million and $50 million.”

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I get what you are saying, but those raw numbers are compared against what? Population? I’m saying that there are numerous crimes that never get reported. That’s why I say, you can’t trust government numbers.

  • funksands : The number of Americans in Private Prisons grew by 1600% between 1990 and 2009

  • AdLib : CL – Filner even creeps me out! He needs to resign but he won’t.

  • SallyT : I thought they still had Chain Gangs down south or something real close to it.

  • funksands : CL – Right…..the voices of reason.

  • choicelady : KT – other states have some incredibly abusive prison industry programs, yes. Just not in CA. Yet.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, what about other states? Do you really believe that some projects are not done by prisoners that are normally done by private citizens? That would involve a supposition of a perfect system. When has that ever happened? I admit, I’m speculating.

  • choicelady : funk – no I did not know the two of them were on that board. One likes to hope they were lone voices of reason? That does happen. It usually is meaningless, but it’s better than NOT having those voices.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT….Having decided he was NOT GUILTY of 2nd Degree, the Jury then had to move on to Manslaughter. They found him NOT GUILTY there too.

  • AdLib : KT – Nope, Murph’s correct, the jury had three choices, 2nd Degree, Manslaughter or Not Guilty.

  • choicelady : Sally – I was caught up in a part of the Filner debacle the day it broke because the woman we were meeting with, a RABBI, had been one of his victims. And yet she was pretty horrified that it had come to this, a demand that he, a very progressive person in his policies, had to resign. He is NOT, says he’s getting help – but we learned from her what he did, and it was NON STOP harassment in every meeting, every conservation. That is one sick puppy.

  • KillgoreTrout : Let me say this, wasn’t Zimmerman ultimately judged on the charge of 2nd degree murder? I’m sorry, but that was the charge, was it not? That was the charge that was decided against or for.

  • funksands : Speaking of awful women. Did everyone know that Donna Shalala and Lesley Stahl serve on Pete Peterson’s SS-killing Advisory Board?

  • choicelady : KT – in CA there are absolutes that MUST be reported monthly, quarterly, annually, and they are total numbers of crimes by code. It is raw data. That’s all I can tell you. It’s not filtered or sampled or anything – it’s raw numbers.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…Andrea Michell….grrrr rrrrr…..she and Peggy Noonan…..

  • KillgoreTrout : OK Murph, thanks.

  • SallyT : Okay, Calif friends…..we do have that mayor in San Diego……

  • choicelady : funk – but it mostly sits there. Too many cities are armor plate rich and personnel poor. Around here as everywhere, the cities are cutting staffing and benefits. Everyone loves a dead cop who died heroically but hate the living who just want their pensions. That alone has eroded commitment to acting like Rambo.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, OK. But how are those stats compiled?

  • AdLib : Murph – I saw that hack, Andrea Mitchell Greenspan declare that Steve Kings racist rants helped the GOP! Because they could condemn him! WHat a total tool she is.

  • KillgoreTrout : People who have their basic needs met, without great struggle, do not commit crimes. Aside from crimes of passion and greed, it is generally true.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice, I am just reporting, not judging.

  • choicelady : Murph – ohhhhhh that is SO lame…

  • funksands : CL, I’m going to have to disagree. Gobs of federal money went into local police forces to buy all sort of advanced weaponry, body armor, surveillance gear. Everywhere from Pittsburgh to Omaha.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : I hear that Cantaloupes are going to be renamed King Melons in the Red States….

  • choicelady : KT – the CA Prison Industry way predates 9/11, but there are limited jobs they can do precisely so they do NOT replace jobs in the private sector.

  • choicelady : Murph – DNC could not have hired anyone to pretend to be that dumb. It just comes naturally to him.

  • funksands : Steve King is the conscience of the GOP

  • choicelady : Sally – don’t know why but I assumed that.

  • KillgoreTrout : Murph, no doubt. Those “prisons,” also put inamtes to work on state and county jobs that would normally be done by private citizens, thus the modern day slavery system. It is so wrong, that I can’t believe our government lets it happen. I guess money does make the world go round.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally and Choice…well I now join you in my own small part of fortress America

  • choicelady : funk – it’s true but not in every city. The federalization of local police turned out to be mostly a farce and provided very little training, tactical support, or equipment. The large ones did – NYC, New Orleans – but far from the majority of urban areas. It was partly hype, partly inefficiency, partly reluctance to spend money on cities. So it’s not universal by any means.

  • SallyT : CL, in case it is of interest…..the boys that ran off were white.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : MAY I SAY SOMETHING ABOUT REP. STEVE KING? Is that guy in the secret pay of the DNC?

  • AdLib : Funk – Bingo! And the number of police sieges on properties has gone way up too with innocent people being killed.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT- Let me try one more time. IN Florida law there are six charges under the category of “Murder”. Zimmerman was on trial for Murder and the charges beneath that title that the judge ruled fit the facts were: Murder in the Second Degree or Manslaughter.

  • choicelady : KT – what poll? I have been talking about crimes stats, not polling.

  • choicelady : Sally – gooooood dogs!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I have never found that to be accurate. No poll can predict or record actual behavior.

  • funksands : Ad, we have a militarized police force because of the war on terror and a huge drop in crime. All of this gear and money and weapons and no on to use it on. Hello Occupy!

  • SallyT : Murph, we have construction by the house, working on our city’s old, old, sewer lines. Anyway, the boys were barking late one night and heads out the open window….big heads. Hubby got up to see two boys running down the street. They had been trying to get gas or such out of a generator that the workmen had there. Anyway, they got cookies from the city crew the next day!

  • choicelady : AdLib – I’d guess her rationale is that everyone was SO intimidated by S & F that they became good citizens? LOL!! What idiocy!

  • KillgoreTrout : OK guys, I give up. I just don’t understand the need for a legal charge that would be so flexible. Of course I could be wrong.

  • AdLib : CL – What’s annoying is that the drop in crime is being exploited by anyone and everyone to justify whatever they are or aren’t doing. Christine Quinn bragged that crime has dropped greatly since Stop and Frisk began…but this fraud also claimed that 97% of those Stopped and Frisked were let go. Those two pieces don’t fit together!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT And those prisons for profits companies give lots of money to campaigns for people who will pass more laws that will fill up their prisons…..the whole system is broken.

  • choicelady : Enjoy, Sabreen! See you here or TPV, always good to see you wherever it may be.

  • choicelady : Murph – my perimeter security has helped a lot, and yes, it means I do not have to be an urban warrior. Despite the fact I’m a good shot. I think you’re doing the right thing.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : I want to be clear Sabreen…..I am eating candy orange slices and longing for a beer….so lift one for me!

  • funksands : I’ve had enough for both of us anyway…..

  • KillgoreTrout : Absolutely funk. These corporations actually trade on Wall St. based on the number of imates they incarcerate. It’s nothing short od 20 first century slavery.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally…I also have dogs…three of them and they roam the property. I think of them as part of my woods security.

  • funksands : Night Sabreen!

  • AdLib : Sabreen, not at all. We usually have the bar open here anyway! Have a great evening and a wonderful weekend!

  • choicelady : Sabreen – you know we don’t judge here at Vox!!! Many of us are secretly sipping whatevers, too, and after my late ‘lunch’ with my friend from the NAACP, I was none too focused getting ON Vox tonight!!!

  • SallyT : Sabreen, regardless of any ideas, yours or mine, you have a great weekend!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Good night Sabreen.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : choice…I have really resisted the idea of living in a fortified encampment but of late I am thinking that a bit of defensive planning is a way of keeping my encampment from having to be fully fortified.

  • Sabreen60 : It’s after midnight. Pass my bedtime :) Not really, but it’s Friday night Patron time. I shouldn’t say that cuz y’all will get the wrong idea :D I’ve had this bottle a loonnng time!

  • choicelady : Sally – love a good guard dog. But paper blowing? Hmmmm.

  • AdLib : Sally – I have a Golden puppy who barks when a sheet of paper doesn’t blow across the street.

  • choicelady : KT – most of the stats I see are aggregate not samples. Just overall counts.

  • SallyT : I have two very large dogs that bark if a sheet of paper blows across the street!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT..Juries receive a list of verdicts that they may deliver. In the case of Zimmerman the judge ruled on the following: 1) Guilty of 2nd Degree Murder, OR 2) Guilty of Manslaughter, OR 3) Not Guilty….all in one trial. He cannot be tried for murder in any form by any court again. No double jeopardy.

  • AdLib : KT – Exactly, the killing of a child charge the prosecutors sought WAY too late in the trial, gave the defense the excuse to say they didn’t have time to fight that charge so it was not allowed. But manslaughter was.

  • KillgoreTrout : Cl, it’s been my experience that stats don’t always indicate the reality on the streets. How couls they, really. Stats are made up of samples. That’s not reality.

  • choicelady : Murph – hells bells I have security cameras and no property to defend. I think it’s a good passive security issue. Might get a motion detector – “driveway monitor” for around the house. Yeah – wild critters and cats will set it off if you don’t target it properly – but they DO work.

  • funksands : KT, the one of the GREATEST crimes in our nation is the private prison industry. They have convinced many local and state jurisdictions that their citizens are more valuable to the economy IN prison than OUT. Pure evil.

  • SallyT : Well, it is harder to steal the new cars with the GPS and such. And, it is much harder to write a bad check.

  • AdLib : Murph, hate to say it but that kind of protection, especially in a state with so many extremists and your being a reasonable person who’s socially involved, is a very good idea.

  • KillgoreTrout : I’m a bit confused here. The charge on which the trial proceeded was 2nd degree murder. Wouldn’t they need a second trial to find guilt or innocence?

  • choicelady : KT – I think since the stats retain the same parameters across time, the decline in crime is simply observable. Over at PoliticusUSA there was an excellent piece about the abrupt decline in Black on Black shootings – huge drop in violence virtually everywhere. Part of it has to do with communities making huge strides within themselves in dealing with commitments to their kids, new economic projects (small but numerous), new empowerment politically – it is just making a difference, and having a Black president is a big help. I’ve been so interested in what is going on. AdLib and I have seen one project in LA – Mama’s International Tamales that both helps local street vendor prepare tamales legally under sanitary conditions and also trains youth to serve and work in food service. Bit by bit communities are taking over their own fortunes, and it matters.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad….”But a request by prosecutors for the jury to also consider a lesser charge of third-degree felony murder – an offense that includes the commission of child abuse – drew heated opposition from the defense.”

  • MurphTheSurf3 : ALL…since we have discussed this before…I am at last getting a security gate for the entrance to my property with a wireless open and close control, security cameras, and signs at the entrance making it clear that anyone going in is being watched. I am putting another gate 1/2 mile down my drive with another camera set up. I live in a valley surrounded by thick forest so that is the only way for a vehicle to come in (my field gardens in the hollow with the lakes).

  • funksands : Ad, I give more credence to the unleaded gas theory. The Economist ran a big story on it this month.«link» .economist.com/n ews/leaders/2158 2004-crime-plung ing-rich-world-k eep-it-down-gove rnments-should-f ocus-prevention- not

  • funksands : Our prisons are full of old men.

  • SallyT : Murph, it wasn’t always that way back home in MO but I did leave in 1978…….

  • AdLib : Funk – Do you think Freakonomics is correct and the drop in crime is the result of legalized abortion? If so, what do you think is going to happen in all these states that outlaw abortion?

  • KillgoreTrout : funk, I agree, and for profit prisons are the cause. They should never be allowed in a free country. It’s modern day slavery. Pure and simple.

  • funksands : KT in 1990, 147,000 cars were stolen in New York. Last year 10,000

  • AdLib : KT – “A jury will consider a lesser charge of manslaughter as well as a second-degree murder charge against accused murderer George Zimmerman, a judge has ruled. ” «link»

  • funksands : KT, its totally true. It’s confusing the hell out of everyone. Petty drug crime is the only thing keeping the prison rolls full.

  • Sabreen60 : I saw one kid on TV say he had been stopped 60 times. I believe black & brown males are stopped 83% of the time. Also heard that Bloomberg said too many white folks are being stopped.

  • funksands : Murph, America is in the middle of a major skin-shedding. It’s awful that you are caught in the middle, but this too shall pass.

  • KillgoreTrout : funk, I don’t for a minute believe those stats. The more jobless you have, the more crime will result. I’m not saying that everybody out of work is going to turn criminal, but what is being carachterized as “crime.”

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sally…I have a feeling this state has been very stupid for a long time…but the GOP has built a case for stupid as wisdom.

  • choicelady : Murph – I am so sorry that’s happening to you. Sigh.

  • SallyT : Murph, Missouri has gotten very stupid!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad….here in Missouri there is serious talk of replicating all of the ALEC inspired initiatives regarding abortion clinics (which also wrecks havoc on clinics that do not do abortions but deal with other women’s health issues), voter intervention/obs truction, trying to block the implementation of a federal health exchange system (having blocked the expansion of medicaid), and a host of other disgusting pieces of shitty legislation….w e are trying to organize but the power of STUPID is mighty indeed.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – no lie, when I lived in a largely Hispanic part of Buffalo, NY we had two major drug crimes involving guns. BOTH of them were due to suburban people trying to wrest drugs from local folks and shooting them instead of paying them. Moral to the story – if the white suburbanites would stay OUT of my neighborhood, I’d not HAVE these problems!

  • funksands : Speaking of crime. Crime is down 40-70% nationally since 1990. Anyone get the feeling that the police force is looking for something to do?

  • AdLib : Murph – Which is why I think the judge and prosecution failed completely in delivering justice. What they kept avoiding is that Trayvon ALSO had the right to use whatever force necessary if he felt he was being threatened. Under that sensibility, it would be irrelevant if the one who was the aggressor, Zimmerman, felt he was threatened.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, are you saying that manslaughter was the formal charge? I’ve never heard that before. The jury has to decide on the guilt or innocence of the specific chrages levied by the state.

  • SallyT : Sabree, A LOT!

  • Sabreen60 : If they did stop & frisk in suburbia at least it would equally disgusting. Seriously, if the cops stopped every young white guy they saw in white neighborhoods, how many would have weed and “designer” drugs?

  • choicelady : funk – nah. FinkSands sounds waaay too much like someplace they drill for oil.

  • funksands : CL, I doubt it. My thoughtfulness meter needs a recharge

  • funksands : I like FinkSands. That could grow on me….

  • AdLib : KT – You’re mistaken, manslaughter was allowed as a verdict in the jury instructions and the prosecution knew they were going for this ahead of time, they did a horrible job in not instructing the jury as to how they could find Zimmerman guilty of manslaughter. Nope, justice was not served thanks to the incompetence and prejudices of the judge, prosecution and jury.

  • choicelady : funk – maybe I missed that???

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey fink! Glad you could join us.

  • funksands : Choice, I thought I already said hi to you. I feel lame.

  • choicelady : Yes funk – you missed CL… :(

  • MurphTheSurf3 : funk…I’m not telling!

  • KillgoreTrout : Sabreen, the fact is that Zimmerman was armed with a deadly weapon. Martin was not. Plus, Martin was doing NOTHING illegal. There was no legitimate need for Zimmerman to stalk him.

  • funksands : Murph, I bet you say that to all the boys….

  • SallyT : «link»

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hello funkaramabamadam a….

  • funksands : Hi Ad / Sabreen / KT / Murph / Assumed / Sally (did I miss anyone?)

  • Sabreen60 : Hiya Funk!

  • choicelady : AdLib – Always thought POS and Perry were synonyms.

  • AdLib : Hey Funk!

  • SallyT : Matthew McConaughey

  • SallyT : Here is the closing argument in Time to Kill

  • AdLib : CL – Oh the hypocrisy of Perry whining about Obama going around the Supreme Court, what the hell is his outlawing abortion by regulating clinics out of existence? What a POS!

  • KillgoreTrout : Murph, that is the truly sickening point. No one gave a shit about Martin’s right to SYG. None what so ever. The court basically said that Martin had no such right. Fucking disgusting.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Assumed- I was tenured and not many are getting that these days. I understand your hesitancy about Georgia. I presume you have an earned doctorate. Have you done much writing? All of this is by way of building a case for a move. How good are the chances?

  • Sabreen60 : KT, Obviously the jurors did not believe Rachel, because she clearly stated that Trayvon said to Zimmerman “why are you following me” and “GET OFF ME”. If what Rachel said is true, then how in the world did Trayvon strike Zimmerman first. Who would holler get off me if they struck first?

  • choicelady : AdLib – oh goodie, another person speaking out of both sides of her mouth. Yeah – she needs to be NOT elected.

  • choicelady : Assumed – if it had not been for my very weird mother’s very wonderful friends, I’d be totally screwed up. My parents’ friends were critical to how I grew up and saw the world – parents are not the only adults one should have. The nuclear family is really potentially hazardous to kids’ well being, so your decision to be with an extended family is EXCELLENT.

  • funksands : More stop and frisks in New York than actual minorities living there in 2012.

  • KillgoreTrout : Stop and frisk is sooo against the 4th amendment.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- even the manslaughter instructions were such that any threat of any kind that Zimmerman thought (or so he said) had the the potential to do him serious (not grave, or fatal) bodily harm let him off the hook. Also recall that the mandatory sentencing would have put him away for 30 years. I suspect that a lighter sentence would have given the jury the leeway to consider manslaughter.

  • funksands : Great to be seen!

  • AdLib : CL – I do want Weiner to lose the race but I saw CHristine Quinn doublespeaking about how bad stop and frisk is while saying she wants to keep it going, she needs to be beaten.

  • choicelady : FUNK!!! Great to see you!

  • Assumed Name : Choice, “Aunties” are always the best!

  • choicelady : Assumed – I loved the Logic course I had though they were never Symbolic Logic. I hope you can find a good place to go and SOON!!!

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, he was not formally charged on the legal docket. Obama was absolutely correct when he said the court did it’s job. He never said that there were any other charges. Hey, I think Zimmerman should be in a very small prison cell right now, but the legal system did nothing wrong.

  • Assumed Name : Whoops…did it again! So, murph, what do you teach?

  • funksands : Hey Howdy Hey!

  • choicelady : Murph – can you tell us more about Section 3? That plus the AZ v Inter tribal council of AZ ruling against demanding ID for registraion ought to give us all some major pushback?

  • SallyT : I just wish the prosecuting attorney had made the same closing arguments that Mattrew McConaughey made in the movie A Time To Kill. That would have worked so good in the Zimmerman Trial.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- yes….the eyes of lady liberty are not covered in cases like you describe. I love your line that this man is a “friend” since such a description would be the last thing that some in your neighborhood would offer.

  • Assumed Name : Hi Murph. No, I’m not tenured. (I had three tenure line offers, but I didn’t take any of them. One was in NYC (too expensive), one in a city of my ex’s family (one of me, too many of them), and one was in Georgia (which I should have accepted…I’m just extremely wary of anywhere south of the Mason-Dixon Line). Logic is a blast….but many find symbolic logic daunting. (

  • AdLib : KT – Manslaughter WAS one of the charges against Zimmerman so they could indeed have found him guilty of that. The only real reason not to is to have believed everything that liar said and believed he was acting solely in self-defense. That’s why I say that B29 just didn’t understand the law and was just plain wrong in thinking intention to kill was required to find him guilty of manslaughter.

  • KillgoreTrout : Murph, i did not know about that decision, but I firmly agree that Neighborhood WATCH, means just that. Watch and report. Not take action.

  • choicelady : SAbreen – that’s what I hear, and Guv Hair Perry is foaming at the mouth over Holder’s moves! Yahhhh hooooo!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen- Don’t piss off a tough, smart, black Attorney General….Secti on 3 of the VRA is much tougher than 4 and 5. T

  • choicelady : Murph – I want evidence he was doing more than Walking While Black. Remember a couple of decades ago an extremely handsome and well dressed Black attorney (who wore dreds) walked on sidewalks in high toned neighborhoods? It wasn’t minutes after he started in an area that the police swooped in. Last night here one of our homeless guys came to our door while we were out. The police saw him on our porch, stopped and frisked him, ran his warrants (none). I am FURIOUS because Andy is a FRIEND. He does yard work for us and is a sweetheart. I don’t know what to do about it since I have no idea who stopped him nor does he. It is an assumption – in an integrated neighborhood – that this Filipino man is dangerous and up to no good. Sickening. He was simply ringing our doorbell, period!!!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I would agree, but nobody could prove who attacked who? That would be a very key part in determining guilt. Like Murph said, Martin was not around to tell his version of events. Strictly legal, murder was not proven, although I believe it was murder or at least manslaughter.

  • Sabreen60 : I wanted to mention this before I leave at midnight – Eric Holder is taking on Texas and North Carolina has gone batshitcrazy!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- you do know I was speaking in the “coon hunter” voice when said WHAT THE HELL….???

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT and Choice- You both know that the Home Owners Association settled with the Martin’s for a million plus in an out of court agreement….the insurance company’s attorneys looked at the case and knew they would lose. Neighborhood Watch rules: no guns, no following, no interaction…wa tch and report.

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally I agree, I just meant than Z intended to do more than just follow Martin.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- such ignorance is hard to fathom but it the “coon hunting” thing is very popular here now.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, true, but the jury still had to decide based on the specific charge.

  • choicelady : KT – the stalking actually leads to murder, IMHO. I could live with manslaughter, but this was murder. You cannot pursue someone while you are armed and confront them without intent to do harm. YOU JUST CANNOT.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice…for God’s sake….it was night…he was walking suspiciously…. he was young….he was wearing a hoodie…he was black…he was in a neighborhood that had some break ins by young black guys and some of them wore hoodies…WHAT THE HELL MORE DO YOU WANT!

  • KillgoreTrout : Murph, I completely agree. I think the fact that Z stalked Martin when he was advised to stay in his vehicle speaks volumes about Z’s intent and resulting manslaughter.

  • choicelady : Oh MUrph. Thank you for speaking up! OMG.

  • SallyT : KT, really? I didn’t think you had to show intent on Manslaughter. I mean if you are drunk and kill someone while driving, you didn’t intend to but you are guilty of Manslaughter.

  • choicelady : KT – the verdict was open on a manslaughter finding though. The jury asked for the definitions shortly before declaring GZ innocent.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- I was in a store in my little town yesterday and a young man behind the counter was wearing a T shirt- on the front was a question: “What is the outcome of the Zimmmerman Verdict?”, on the back the answer, “Year Round Coon Hunting.” I told the owner that either that guy got rid of the shirt or I was never shopping there again. The owner said he had not even noticed the shirt and he sent the guy home. Still…

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, unfortunately Z was not brought up on manslaughter charges. The court, including the jury has to decide on the charge levied by the state.

  • choicelady : Murph – prima facie, HOW could anyone and I mean ANYONE think that a kid being followed would not be defending himself rather than being the aggressor??? What would THEY have done? It is beyond belief how people made Trayvon the villain.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ad, but he wasn’t guilty of 2nd degree murder, according to Florida law. The jury could not convict him for 2nd degree murder. I DO agree that Zimmermand is completely guilty of manslaughter.

  • SallyT : That is right, AdLib. The judge should have answered their question on that instead of saying be more specific.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT- The problem of course is that Martin could not speak for himself (I felt threatened because I was being stalked) and there were no real witnesses so Zimmerman’s indirect testimony via his statements and the filmed reenactment had primacy. The prosecution had Martin attacking Zimmerman and Zimmerman defending himself and the prosecution was so lame that it could not create a believable narrative of its own.

  • choicelady : AdLib – in the post verdict world, I have been horrified to see that so many white people think even if Trayvon had defended himself against GZ it was not SYG for him but ASSAULT. The racial implications in all that are horrifying.

  • SallyT : Good night glenn! Have a great weekend. Check out the funnies on Sunday. But, I know you will! You are always so good about letting me know.

  • KillgoreTrout : Glad you could make it tonight glenn.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I would definitely agree, but…

  • Sabreen60 : Good Night Glenn, take care!

  • AdLib : KT – That’s not true, by FL law he was guilty of manslaughter. Juror B29 wrongly thought the killing had to be intentional which it does not. If it was not self-defense, it was manslaughter by the law in FL.

  • choicelady : glenn – wonderful having you here. Good night and sweet dreams!

  • KillgoreTrout : Sue, enjoy the weekend. Was glad to “see,” you here.

  • choicelady : Murph – I think I’ve been under the assumption that only the judge has the final word about the LAW and can ignore the prosecution and defense. It can be grounds for appeal, but I think that’s the final word, as I’ve been taught (though I do practice the law without a license!)

  • glenn : Okay, folks, my turn to “go out the door.” I’m falling asleep at the keyboard–five days of getting up at 5:30 a.m. Hope everyone has a great weekend!

  • SallyT : I would have to have dealt with 5 other ladies. The guys on my jury were aHOLES!

  • KillgoreTrout : What is so frustrating about the Zimmerman verdict is, by Florida state law, he was not guilty of murder. The frustrating thing is that the SYG law is not just. Nobody should be allowed to kill someone just because they feel “threatened.” Didn’t SYG also apply to Trayvon?

  • Sabreen60 : Good Nite, Sue!

  • SallyT : AdLib, I think I would have held out on the Zimmerman one.

  • AdLib : Have a great time, Sue!

  • Sabreen60 : CL, I think Murph answered the questions I was asking.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Bye Sue! best to You

  • choicelady : Sue – have fun! Great to have you here.

  • AdLib : Sally – That’s valuable to hear, it is hard when you have everyone else insisting you’re wrong. In a matter of life and death I would bet you wouldn’t have budged but it’s hard for anyone to hold out against such enormous pressure.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – only the judge can declare the law. The prosecution and defense submit the facts, and the jury decides on facts but within the judge’s declaration of the law. To do other than that is ‘jury nullification’ that, while we’d love it here, is the province of the religious and extremist Right and very dangerous.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen – the jury instructions are gone through word by word and both sides must agree. The prosecution allowed the key paragraph to pass without challenge. The fix was in.

  • SallyT : Good night Shelock! See you around!

  • glenn : ‘Night Sue. Have fun tomorrow!

  • SueInCa : Oh gals too, how rude of me

  • SueInCa : Well guys I have to go for now. Have to get up early tomorrow. Taking the boys to Drake’s Beach west of San Rafael. Have a good one all.

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, wouldn’t the prosecution have some say in the jury instructions. Could they object to or at least call attention to parts they believed did not apply to the case?

  • glenn : Assumed–I am one of the “village” for my daughter, son-in-law, and granddaughter. I moved to GA to be closer to them. Now, during the summer, I am with my granddaughter every day, and I wouldn’t trade it for the world. I love watching her grow and knowing what’s going on in her world. So, I understand how important it must have been to you to be close to family. Good on ya!

  • AdLib : Night AB!

  • SallyT : No, he does play golf, well not yet.

  • choicelady : AN – I agree with KT about your marvelous avatar!

  • KillgoreTrout : AN, I don’t if I’ve told you, but I love your avatar.

  • SallyT : I was on a jury once and I was the only hold out. But, 11 people coming at you does get to you! I did give in. The case wasn’t really serious but I can tell you that you can get overmanned.

  • Sabreen60 : Take care AB!

  • SueInCa : Sally does hubby play golf? After a few years a day alone while he is golfing will be heaven lol

  • Assumed Name : AB enjoy your niece, and good night.

  • AdLib : Sally – Very funny about the Union card!

  • Sabreen60 : Murph, sounds ’bout right to me!

  • SueInCa : Yummmm my mom makes chunky chocolate cookies and I love them. Adlib I think you are right. I hope that I would have asked to speak to the judge or something. I don;t know but I can imagine the intimidation that was taking place. Prob one reason they all need counseling.

  • glenn : Sally–Okay, hubby is allowed a few days to just “lollygag”, but retirement is serious business, so he has to get a “schedule” set up soon. :)

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen…take a look down the thread at my summary of the Zimmerman verdict. What do you think?

  • KillgoreTrout : Have a great weekend AB. I always appreciate your contributions to the music thread. You always come up with artists I’ve nevver heard before, and they are consistently good.

  • AdLib : Sue – Hey, at least we let you know when Google is crawling the site. As for the NSA, just assume it always is and you’ll never be surprised.

  • Sabreen60 : Hey Sally. I stepped away and here you are!!

  • choicelady : AB – good night and sweet dreams!

  • choicelady : Assumed – THAT makes a world of sense. I do think extended family and village create a great environment for children. I have no kids of my own but helped raise a passel of them, and I think their having known me – an adult who was not in judgement of them – gave them a friendly, safe space for good talk. And I had LOTS of them with lots of kids. It was super for me, too!

  • AdLib : Murph – Great summary of the Zimmerman case, agree with your assessment.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : AB…hardly had time say hello

  • Assumed Name : Sue, chocolate chip, of course!

  • SallyT : glenn, LOL well, let me think about that. Truth is I have been building a stone walkway. Hubby has been doing a little drinking on the camping clock……celeb rating!

  • glenn : ‘Night AB–Have fun with your niece.

  • SueInCa : Night AB happy trails in the morning

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I know. In that way, we have a unique bond.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Assumed…just read your description of your job. Are you tenured? I suspect not. You probably met several needs of the department that hired you..few of which suit your career goals. As to teaching a Gen Ed requirement. I did too for half of my load and the students resent the time and the money that they see as of no use so they take it out on the prof.

  • AlphaBitch : Sorry guys – I got distracted! My “niece” is here and we got to chatting. I leave at 6AM tomorrow, so better turn in. Keep dreamin’ those weiner dreams….oh, I’d love to be an Oscar meyer weiner…

  • AdLib : Sue – This is total speculation but my impression of B29 is that she was intimidated out of her belief and B37, perhaps with the others on her side, bulldozed her on how the law said she had to believe just as B37 did. Now, she regrets that she went along with it but may still be convinced that the BS that B37 shoveled on her to smother her opinion is correct.

  • choicelady : Sally – that’s funny!

  • Assumed Name : Oh, Choice, no worries. My motivation for being where I am now is that I’m close to my family. (I’m raising my son alone and wanted adults I trusted to help me raise him while he was a young child. Now that he’s getting older, I feel more comfortable moving away again. We make choices based on values and priorities…alt hough I’m ready to go, I’m **very** thankful to have had “the village” these past few years.)

  • SallyT : CL, he already told a friend that he kept his union card because he might need to file his first and only grievance after his wife takes over management.

  • choicelady : KT – same experience, similar reasons.

  • SueInCa : Knowing what we know about NSA and Google, that term “google is crawling the site” takes on a new meaning lol

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, well let’s hope you never are! ;)

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sabreen- my read on the Zimmerman verdict. The law in Florida allows for the kind of interpretation of self defense that what is really manslaughter can be overlooked. The judge played to the defense when she included Stand Your Ground in her jury instructions. The defense did a great job with a bad case because of the law, a helpful judge who ruled out talking about racism and included SYG in her instructions, and a prosecution that was under resourced and listless. Bottom line that prosecution and that jury did not want to find Zimmerman guilty unless they could not avoid it because they all live there (and the prosecution owes its jobs to the voters there).

  • glenn : Sally–hmmm–hub by is “enjoying himself” and you are “stacking rocks”. What’s wrong with this picture?

  • choicelady : Sally – THAT is very good news! Glad he’s happy and hope he keeps finding joy in his life!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, it is avery, very odd experience. It’s like they think they know, and i do know. An accusation is all it takes to get killed in that world. I’ve given up many opportunities because I wanted to remain “underground.”

  • SallyT : glenn, so far hubby is really enjoying himself!

  • choicelady : Sally – also remind him he needs to be self sufficient or it will be a Honeydew Retirement: “Honey do this. Honey do that.” If he’s going to hang around you 24/7, he needs to earn his keep, right?

  • SueInCa : My taste buds are bad Assumed, what kind of cookies are we all eating?

  • SallyT : KT, I have been stacking rocks and I ain’t even in prison!

  • AdLib : Thanks Assumed…*CHOMP *…mmm…great cookie!

  • choicelady : Sally – always glad to be useful.

  • choicelady : KT – YIKES!!!! That’s cinema verite to the nth degree!!!!

  • SallyT : CL, I will quote you often!

  • KillgoreTrout : Sally, where have you been?

  • SueInCa : I am not making excuses for her at all, I am just saying that B37 alone would cause unrest in the jury room. Hey Watson good to see you.

  • choicelady : Sally!!! Hope you’re good tonight? How is the first day of your husband’s retirement? If you like I can send a note: “Remember your wife married you for better or worse but NOT for lunch!”

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I can surely understand that. I don’t blame you. I am just a glutton for every bit of knowledge I can acquire. The people I got hung up with were also some of the music providers for the show. People who wanted me dead.

  • SallyT : AdLib, you can see me???? I better comb my hair and put some clothes on!

  • glenn : Hey Sally–how goes your husband’s retirement?

  • AdLib : Hey Sally! great to see ya!

  • Assumed Name : AdLib, the cookies are warm and available to you and yours (esp the very talented 10 year old! *smiles*)

  • choicelady : Sue – did ANY of that come out at trial?

  • SallyT : Good evening everyone!

  • choicelady : Oh Assumed I hope you can move! What a terrible thing to be stuck somewhere with a department that does not want you for the very reasons they claimed they hired you! I hope you can get relocated and find a great place to work and be with good colleagues who respect you!

  • SueInCa : CL you don’t need to convince me, I know the whole Zimmerman family are a pack of liars

  • Sabreen60 : Sue, she may feel bad. But the way she feels may have something to do with the reaction of the public in over 100 cities. She may feel bad because she knows that if she really thought Zimmerman was guilty she could have refused to go along with the others. Based on what I heard from lawyers on TV, B29 explanation is not credible or else she really didn’t have a clue about how to render a verdict.

  • choicelady : KT – I did not say it wasn’t good but that it probably is TOO good for me to want to see! I’m just systemically overloaded with that kind of violence in my life.

  • Assumed Name : Choice, that’s the plan. If it’s a choice between teaching where I am currently versus working at a more progressive institution in a liberal city, for my general happiness I prefer the latter. (I’m working on it. *smiles*) On that note, Choice, do share your interests, etc.

  • KillgoreTrout : I can understand your sensitivity though CL. We’ve both been there.

  • KillgoreTrout : The show does more to discredit the gangster life than it does to promote it.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, how do you know it’s not good?

  • choicelady : Sabreen and Sue – I saw the video in the police garage of GZ emerging from the police car with not a mark on him. I understand his father met with him BEFORE the booking photos showing blood. Cannot help thinking his father did a little creative makeup. The forensic expert said he has wounds totally inconsistent with being slammed on the sidewalk, and Trayvon’s body was several feet away. None of GZ’s DNA was on Trayvon’s hands which were under his body and thus protected. NONE of this adds up to Trayvon attacking GZ but GZ shooting him down while they both were standing.

  • AdLib : Sabreen – I think there were no clean hands in the verdict. The judge was out of line including the stand your ground law in the instructions, it was not invoked and should not have been used as it was to confuse the jurors. She also was out of line to bar the mention of racial profiling and when she refused to clarify questions on the manslaughter charge the jurors had and just sent them back to the jury room, they gave up on asking again. The prosecutors should have hammered on manslaughter and made clear that intention to kill was irrelevant. And the juror who all the time was planning a book and was married to an attorney should have been tossed immediately. I think that this poor woman was intimidated out of her beliefs and I would bet that the lawyer’s wife had a big hand in that.

  • glenn : Sue–I really have to agree with you that the prosecution threw the case on purpose. There was so much they could have brought in to disprove or at least throw doubt on Z’s story, and they did not. I believe that this case was truly a “travesty of justice”.

  • SueInCa : Sabreen then she is lying now, not surprising. She said she is still in anguish over the verdict.

  • SueInCa : I agree Assumed but inside a small space like that, a hold out can experience all kids of horror

  • Sabreen60 : Also, B29 accepted Zimmerman’s story – lies and all right along with the other jurors.

  • KillgoreTrout : AB, I don’t think I would find them appetizing. Not unless there is something I never knew about myself.

  • SueInCa : I think they threw the case on purpose, I was afraid of that. After Corey laughed on national television, she should be fired.

  • Assumed Name : Sue, I suspect that’s right. Given the first juror’s interview, I can only imagine her attitude and the attitudes toward the one woman who though Zimmerman was guilty. Still, it would have been better had she not capitulated…a hung jury would have been a better than a return of “not guilty.”

  • choicelady : Sabreen – those were my thoughts indeed after listening to Juror B29.

  • choicelady : KT – that’s interesting. I thought though that there were a lot of 19th century cases of degeneration and blindness from absinthe.

  • KillgoreTrout : Exactly Ad. The show is a brilliant creation, in all respects.

  • choicelady : ADLib – she’s definitely a recipient of your (both of you) insights into the world. She’s a smart cookie – could see that when I met her – and obviously takes after both your political views AND your creative talents!

  • AdLib : Assumed – Hmm…that may be at the root of the problem then, kind of a bait and switch where you’re not able to present the type of course you had intended to. And thanks, I will have a cookie!

  • Sabreen60 : AdLib, I was stunned. I think the prosecutors did a lousy job. But when I heard B29 didn’t really understand the jury instructions, I became even more disgusted with the prosecution. They didn’t didn’t do anything in closing to advance their theory of the case or explain anything to the jurors. However, I don’t have sympathy for B29. She should have hung up the jury, rather than allowing herself to be pressed by the rest of the jurors.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, thujone in wormwood was believed to cause brain damage. Studies since, have proven that it would take massive amounts to cause even slight brain cell degeneration. Absinthe is more anicdote than reality. It is, however very high in alcohol content. About 65 percent.

  • SueInCa : Hehehe Adlib watch out she may take over

  • glenn : Heard a good quote about SYG on a video called”Black Does Not Equal Fear” which was posted by “Liberal Librarian” on The People’s View. The speaker in the video, said, “How can we move forward if we all stand our ground?”

  • choicelady : Assumed – any chance of a transfer elsewhere to a more hospitable environment? I hate to see you wasting all your vitality on an institution that disrespects your talents!

  • SueInCa : I think the other jurors would have made her miserable CL but I am hoping I would not care

  • AdLib : Sue and CL – She did them so swiftly too! Showed me a whole new side of her!

  • choicelady : KT – I’m not prejudging. It’s the same reason I don’t want to see “Amistadt”. Very wonderful film, important story, can’t handle it.

  • SueInCa : Adlib she qualified that comment with the instructions they were given. I still would have deadlocked that jury myself on principle……I think

  • glenn : Ad–not sure what to think about that. If that juror thought that Zimmerman got away with murder, surely there is something in the law that would allow the jury to at least hold Z accountable.

  • choicelady : AdLib – I think Juror B 29 should have stood HER ground and hung the jury.

  • Assumed Name : AdLib, the course I’m thinking of was required–intro to logic, a service course. (Teaching is lovely when it’s political, legal, or feminist theory, or the metaphysics of race. The department i was hired into professed an interest in these subjects, but it just isn’t the case, esp regarding race and gender I think I’m simply at the wrong institution…an d my last batch of cookies are done.)

  • choicelady : KT – Yes, I can see that. Maybe I’ll give it a go someday, but right now I seek out stories about human triumph and strength – the opposite is just too much a reality. But I do understand why it’s interesting to you!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, you don’t really know until you watch some of the episodes. Don’t pre-judge.

  • SueInCa : That is me with fish and lobster, crab the results are horrible

  • glenn : AB–Are you kids here yet? Didn’t you say something a week or so ago about them returning home?

  • AdLib : So what does everyone think about Juror B29 now being regretful at agreeing to the non-guilty verdict and calling Zimmerman a murderer?

  • choicelady : AdLib – she did an amazing job!

  • KillgoreTrout : What’s happening AB?

  • choicelady : Sue – yes, and I know most of the good products, but they’re expensive and rarely the equal of the wheat based stuff. But I am fine and exist OK without wheat. When I inadvertently get some, it’s so bad, it’s not even tempting anymore.

  • SueInCa : *them

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, that’s exactly what attracts me to it. I think you know we have had similar experiences with that part of society.

  • SueInCa : She earned the Adlib

  • SueInCa : They are CL

  • AdLib : AB – Li’l Lib is doing great and very humbled at all the props! Thanks to you and everyone for the kind words!

  • KillgoreTrout : Exactly Sue. Nobody should pre-judge something they’ve never seen.

  • SueInCa : CL do you have a fresh and easy near you?

  • choicelady : Sue – those just SOUND yummy! Lemonade cookies – ooooohhh.

  • glenn : Sue–yummy–pink lemonade cookies!

  • choicelady : Sabreen – gluten free is awful. I’m lucky to have a wonderful GF food store nearby, and I do get good substitutes for some things. Pasta is the easiest – like Tinkyada products – but bread just is, well, not the real thing.

  • Sabreen60 : KT, It goes… thankfully :)

  • SueInCa : pink lemonade

  • SueInCa : LOL I made lemonade cookies this week on Monday

  • AlphaBitch : Hey pappasan! How’s ChiquitaLib?

  • glenn : Sue–now that you’ve “given up”, you have to make the cookies next week.

  • choicelady : AB – ick!

  • AdLib : Hey AB!

  • Sabreen60 : CL, I have tried to do a gluten free diet to see if I have a sensitivity, but it’s really difficult.

  • AlphaBitch : KT: Weiner cookies?????

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey Sabreen, how goes it?

  • SueInCa : I give up glenn

  • KillgoreTrout : AN, Mmmmmm freshly baked cookies! ;)

  • choicelady : AB – LOL!!

  • SueInCa : Oops I just got it, only if Weiner is a woman

  • glenn : Sue–Why can’t Holder be gay?

  • choicelady : Assumed = I am wheat intolerant so I live vicariously through you!!!

  • SueInCa : Only if holder is a woman glenn

  • choicelady : Sue – Oh that’s a terrible joke!!!

  • glenn : Sue–shouldn’t it be Holder/Weiner?

  • choicelady : KT, Sue, AdLib – I totally believe you about the Sopranos. And that is WHY I don’t want to see it! Not saying at all that it’s bad, or glorifies but that I can no longer take that much REALITY!!!

  • AlphaBitch : CL: It’s one that hung OUT too long (or is that short?)

  • AlphaBitch : Sue!

  • KillgoreTrout : Murph, you don’t get it. It’s not glorifying organized crime. It is a drama about the conflicts between a man who wants to raise his children to do well, by universities and such, and the juxtaposition of the father being a capo in organized crime. The dialogue, plot and music is outstanding.

  • Assumed Name : Choice, the cookies are lovely, even though short lived. *smiles*

  • SueInCa : Did anyone hear about the new duo running in NY? It is Weiner/ Holder

  • glenn : AB–A bad weiner is one without a clue.

  • choicelady : AB – a bad weiner is one that’s been hanging around too long.

  • AdLib : CL – I concur with KT about the Sopranos, one of the best series and it was just the opposite of glorification, it was about how psychotic and self-destructive the mob is. Their lives, despite all the money, was very gritty and unhappy. With the central theme being a mob boss needing counseling, I think that theme was established at the beginning.

  • AlphaBitch : My weiner has a first name, it’s A-N-T-H-O-N-WHY!

  • AlphaBitch : What IS a bad weiner???

  • choicelady : KT – did not know you could regulate wormwood and live to tell about it… I might try it once. But I’m pretty much a wine person, though tequila works. It does not seem to impact me much.

  • SueInCa : We have been in ours almost a year

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Assumed..I was an academic for many years. History was my field. The crazies in the classroom phenomenon had not emerged when I retired.

  • SueInCa : How are you enjoying the nearly new digs AB

  • Sabreen60 : Hey AB!

  • SueInCa : Actually a lot AB, my business is starting to take of.

  • choicelady : AB!!!! Great to see you!

  • AlphaBitch : Hey Sue! Sup wit you?

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, absinthe was legalized again in 2005. There was a question of the amount of the active ingredient in thuzone, in wormwood. Wormwood is an essential ingredient in absinthe. The US allows a small quantity of thuzone deemed inert. You can get the real deal from Lucid or Pernot, and a few others. Totally legal. Very strong drink though, no kidding.

  • glenn : AB–What’s up, girl?

  • AdLib : Assumed – Why do you think such extremists take your class? To learn how to better argue their extremism? Apparently, it’s not to learn how to construct, validate and evaluate philosophical arguments.

  • choicelady : Assume – we all have the broken paragraph problem. Just no broken cookies – or if there are, they need to come here…

  • SueInCa : Hey AB

  • AlphaBitch : Hiddee Ho, Peeps!

  • SueInCa : Some are saying he went with Olberman, I never knew they were close but they could be as many times as he appeared with Keith

  • choicelady : KT – I did not mean to imply the Sopranos did so much as I can’t take it anymore! I have heard GREAT things about it, but it’s too close to the bone for me.

  • choicelady : Sabreen – glad you liked it!!!

  • SueInCa : I never watched the Sopranos but I agree the shows do not present these people in a good light, if you understand the dialogue it paints them as the murderers that they are.

  • AdLib : Sue – Yep, Silver wasn’t the button down type, I guess, found the NYT stifling.

  • choicelady : Assume – I understand the phenomenon, though it shocks me you’re the recipient of such stupidity. One would think they’d just bypass philosophy rather than trash it. It must be very trying. I think the nation has taken leave of its senses, but if you can hang in, please do. Admin would be a boring and wasteful route – UNLESS teaching is making you so anxious that it is just better. I think opting for self preservation is the FIRST priority!

  • AdLib : Hey Sabreen!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib Michelle’s problem was Michelle and now that she is out…the guy that ran against her and was going to run this time too dropped out. P.S. Michelle may look back on that close call as the good old days the way things are going in her life.

  • Assumed Name : so there you have it. (I keep returnin to create a paragraph…it’ ll take a minute to get used to this.) (…and the next batch of cookies are done-+-hurrah!!)

  • choicelady : Murph – I gather the film about meth dealers in the Ozarks, the title of which eludes me, was excellent. But I don’t go to films about great tragedies of life because I deal with them daily. Good stuff is not the same as stuff I want to see.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, the Sopranos doesn’t glorify the mob. They show the sociopathy that these people represent. There is also the aspect of a clinical psychologist, analyzing the nature of mobsters. It’s very well done.

  • glenn : Oops–now that I’m on Medicare–not Medicaid.

  • Sabreen60 : CL, You really did and your come-back was hilarious, too.

  • glenn : Hi Sabreen

  • Assumed Name : (Whoops.) …but for the past few years I’ve had a string of extremists in the classroom…and too often the attitude is “logic be damned,” which, as you can imagine, gives me a headache. I’m seriously considering administrative work, but colleagues warn that such a move would end my academic career.

  • SueInCa : Hi Sabreen

  • SueInCa : Adlib didn’t Nate Silver move over to ESPN?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice…your assessment of organized crime is the same as mine…I wouldn’t find a series about the homelife of the KKK very appealing either.

  • choicelady : Hi Sabreen – glad I made you laugh over at TPV withe the Paula Deene joke.

  • AdLib : Murph – Michele Bachmann nearly lost and would have lost if a little money was spent by the DNC on her seat and she’s in a strongly red district. I don’t know, the one thing that’s too early for Silver to suss out is if Repubs are finally going to say, “Enough is Enough” with the Baggers and if they truly attempt to crash our economy to stop the ACA, that could do it.

  • Sabreen60 : Hi! Ok Ad lib, no one likes a bad Weiner.

  • choicelady : Assume – WOW that’s great! I’m from the Midwest – Chicago area – so you’re on my fave turf. Well, welcome aboard, we are thrilled to have you here!

  • glenn : CL–I have just spent the last two days on the phone trying to get my supplemental insurance now that I’m on Medicaid. Learned some interesting things about supplemental insurance. Also, I have to add that before I called insurance companies, I called Medicare. Had an almost hour-long conversation with a very helpful young man who gave me all the information I needed to make an informed choice about my supplemental insurance. So, once again, the righties are proved wrong. Remember when ronnieraygun said that the scariest words were “I’m from the government and I’m here to help?” The young man I spoke to from Medicare was very helpful and very well informed.

  • SueInCa : CL I grew up with a friend whose uncle used to hide mafia members

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…I am also supporting Grimes.

  • choicelady : KT – since when did absinthe get legal again? It used to be banned as a toxic substance.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, no Netflix?

  • Assumed Name : Choice, I’m in the Midwest, divorced (happily), and teach philosophy. Upon graduation, I was only 1 of 5 black women philosophers in the US; now there are about 50…of around 10,000. (So, as you imagine, anonymity is very welcomed for me. *smiles*) I’m currently uncertain, beyond that, regarding where I am: I love teaching and students, but for Te pas

  • KillgoreTrout : I don’t know if it goes very well with cookies, but absinthe is one hell of a drink. Caution is advised.

  • choicelady : Sue and KT – I grew up in a Mafia dominated area for a time, then lived in Rhode Island during the last days of Raymond Patriarca. Enough already. I don’t find them romantic or interesting although I am now good friends with Patriarca’s nephew who tells some VERY funny stories about the mob. But it was evil. I have NO interest in them.

  • SueInCa : Whoever reviewed the bid did not do due diligence,

  • AdLib : glenn – Yep! Each election I do have a favorite senate race (more than one are at the top of my list but I pick my fave to donate to and concentrate on). In 2008 it was Al Franken, in 2010 it was Barbara Boxer, in 2012 it was Elizabeth Warren. In 2014, I think it will be Alison Grimes.

  • SueInCa : So someone keeps doing the same thing hoping for a different outcome? Damn let me get at those books, they won’t be wasting money anymore

  • SueInCa : Hey KT I am watching Magic City on Starz it is pretty good. Follows the mob type connections down in Cuba in the 50’s

  • choicelady : Sue – they won the bid. Of course the PR firm is Ogilvie, those lovely people who screwed up NO on 8. Yes – we’re all feeling in very incapable hands…

  • choicelady : KT – Nope. No premium channels, no Sopranos.

  • SueInCa : Who chose them? They say they know energy not health care

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn…Got me! Hah!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, you never saw The Sopranos? Whoa, you should really check it out. One of the best shows in TV history.

  • choicelady : Sue – they have NO management experience. All PR, no substance, no health care knowledge. VERY poorly organized, but making US responsible. Til we scream. THAT they hear!

  • glenn : Murph–right next to the cookies, of course!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn…where is the spigot on my computer?

  • SueInCa : They specialize in energy customers?

  • choicelady : AdLib – we have others from well placed organizations, yes.

  • glenn : Assumed–we also talk a lot about beverages on Friday nights. Besides Bailey’s in our coffees, any other suggestions to go with your cookies?

  • choicelady : KT – Never saw the Sopranos, but that actually does not surprise me given the tightness between Tricky Dick and the mob.

  • SueInCa : Hmm interesting. Never heard of them but I will look them up for sure.

  • KillgoreTrout : AN, that is a common feeling brought about by associating with Planeteers!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…Nate Silver, who I trust a lot, has written that the vulnerable districts fell in 2012…there is little left. I am not holding my breath. The Senate…I think it will be close…McConnel l might fall to a Tea Partier and if that person is not nuts, he/she could win.

  • choicelady : Assume – we’re glad to help you get rid of the cookies should you need help…

  • choicelady : Sue – It is Richard Heath & Associates in Fresno. They haven’t a clue what they’re doing, but they are focused on making sure we know Big Brother is watching us all very closely. We’re mostly ignoring them. I told my friend this afternoon that I think they reached out to labor, communities of color, immigrants, the faith communities – and then panicked when they got them. I think they wanted white PhDs looking for jobs who “knew” someone in those communities vs being FROM those communities.

  • glenn : Ad–If the first Grimes ad is any indication of her cleverness and intelligence, there is much hope that McConnell WILL be voted out FINALLY! And..she has the grannies on her side!

  • SueInCa : Hi Assumed good to see you here

  • AdLib : CL – That’s a wonderful colleague to have with you if you need to go public and I’ll bet there are many others who would happily join you.

  • KillgoreTrout : Well CL, birds of a feather. There was an episode of the Sopranos, where all the top gangsters raised a glass to Dick Cheney and said, they wished he was the vice preident of THE UNIVERSE.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hey Assumed….mmmmm mmm, cookies.

  • SueInCa : I think McConnell is gone, his favorable rating is – that is minus 7%

  • AdLib : Murph – Even with gerrymandering heavily favoring them, the Repubs lost seats in 2012. It can happen again. And as for the Senate, I think we might be on the verge of waving bye-bye to Mitch McConnell!

  • choicelady : glenn – oh you layabout you, thinking you have the right to retire. Tsk tsk.

  • glenn : Murph–just another version of “trickle down economics”, where we’re all just so tired of being pissed on. I hope to see many of the “pissed on” people become pissed off and vote these idiots out.

  • Assumed Name : Hi, Murph. (Off to get cookies from the oven…timer just went off.) (I’m feeling *very* domestic at the moment. *smile* )

  • KillgoreTrout : Ha Murph, ain’t it so. They also are pissing down the backs of their constituents and calling it rain.

  • choicelady : Murph – LOL!!!

  • SueInCa : Choice who is the contractor if you can say here

  • choicelady : AdLib – my long, uh, “lunch” with the head of the NAACP brought us to that agreement. Not right now, and NOT if we can do our jobs unimpeded, but yes – if we cannot, then we go public.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- the new GOP anthem. Dum de Dum Dum….Dum…

  • choicelady : KT – I know several young white men, a couple with criminal histories, who admire the GOP and hate the Dems despite ALL THE FACTS. I cannot understand it other than racism.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT- the GOP has flooded the electoral lakes with piss and called it mountain dew.

  • SueInCa : I have all the gilder’s paste to do it too

  • glenn : CL–I don’t know what shape my hat should be. Whatever it is, it has to be “old-fashioned “, since I’m now eligible for Medicare. You know…just another one of those libs “dependent on the government.”

  • AdLib : CL – A group of you may have to go public to expose the sabotage, intentional or unintentional, that this contractor is creating. Californians won’t stand for it and a lot of negative publicity about this contractor would put heavy pressure on Brown and Co. to replace them. If you’re at the end of your rope with them, what else can you do?

  • KillgoreTrout : Murph, what’s up? It’s beyond stupidity. It’s total brainwashing for anybody who isn’t white and wealthy.

  • choicelady : Sue – fantastic idea – painting the foil different colors. Cool!

  • choicelady : KT – Yup. That was in his book, “It Can’t Happen Here”. But it almost has…

  • SueInCa : I get the special ops baret in red and black too glenn

  • choicelady : glenn – that’s a super idea. In honor of our beloved bito I will shape my foil into the “Frances Perkins hat” he and I used to joke about. What will YOU wear>

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Bill Maher: Voting Republican is an Act of Stupidity by the Middle Class

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, yeah, they were great hats.

  • glenn : Sue–thanks for the link. Will read it after VOX.

  • choicelady : Thanks Sue.

  • KillgoreTrout : I believe it was Sinclair Lewis who said, “when fascism comes to America. it will be wrapped in the American flag and carrying a bible.”

  • glenn : Remember a couple of weeks ago when we were talking about the Planet “convention”? If we ever do have one, I think everyone should wear a tinfoil hat that each person thinks best suits his/her personality. Then we could have a “planet parade” to determine the winner!

  • SueInCa : Here is the link to the Mother Jones article on Thomas «link»

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…great summary…what let’s them keep the House in 2014…gerrymand ering….what let’s them think they can grab the Senate (which will be close) is the stupid people who along with the rich and privileged autocrats are their base.

  • choicelady : KT – oh that’d be one cool hat indeed!

  • choicelady : AdLib – with the wackadoodle nonsense impeding our work on implementing ACA, I’d say we all have some reason to worry about how deeply the Right has penetrated even the implementation programs. ONLY thing the private contractor worries about is social control over us all. We are not sitting still for it.

  • KillgoreTrout : If I had a Reynold’s Wrap hat, it would be a slouch hat from the late 40s.

  • SueInCa : Adlib trhey count on people forgetting. I am going to join a voter registration drive.

  • glenn : Murph–don’t forget to add a flag pin to the silk band. You’re not a “patriot” if you don’t have a flag pin.

  • SueInCa : His nephew was admitted to an emergency room and decided he did not have to stay, he got unruly and the security staff subdued him with a tazur. I believe it was drug related. I will go find the link brb

  • choicelady : Murph – PERFECT though it must be hard farming with the Old School Ribbons in your eyes?

  • AdLib : So just to recap, Repubs are currently spewing racist attacks against the black community, the Latino community, passing laws that allow them to dominate women, voting rights of college students and protect and encourage murderers to kill innocent people AND are threatening to blow up the US economy if Obama doesn’t agree to kill the ACA…er…how does that give them a majority supporting them in 2014 and 2016?

  • SueInCa : I had seen a tea bagger site years ago with JBS crap on it but only was able to verify it by reading the new book Wrapped in the Flag. I am not sure which nephew it was CL, down in Louisiana

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Sue…tell us more

  • choicelady : glenn – very observant about Murph’s hat type. Nice thing about tin foil – it can be one thing one day, something else the next and STILL keep those evil rays at bay!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn…I am about to swoon…

  • glenn : Sue–no I didn’t hear that about Thomas’ nephew. What’s the story?

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice…my tinfoil is a British Boater (think straw hat with a silk band with my school colors)

  • choicelady : Sue – had not heard that story about Thomas’ nephew – the one he rejected, would not help? THAT nephew?

  • glenn : CL and Sue–I think Murph’s hat is a bowler because he is so good at bowling people over with his calm, intellectual, and well-reasoned responses to people on the right.

  • choicelady : Sue – a fedora in foil. Perfect.

  • SueInCa : Did everyone hear about Thomas’ outrage over how HIS nephew was treated with a tazur?

  • choicelady : Sue – I can’t help but think the Baggers were intended to be Birchers since Koch Daddy founded the organization. I think they’re trying to revamp the movement to unload all the pins and bumper stickers from the early 60s they have left over.

  • SueInCa : Then it has to be a Fedora CL

  • choicelady : Murph – is your tinfoil hat a tricorn, trilby, Homburg, or 20 gallon? We’re looking for fashion tips.

  • SueInCa : Look behind the curtain, those baggers have teamed up with John Birch Soc

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, it applies to just about any aspect of life that I know of.

  • AdLib : glenn – Yes, that double standard is really outrageous. Only when the RW goes nuclear do they ever get reprimanded. They have to explode in racist vitriol like Steve King for it to “count” as bad.

  • SueInCa : yeah I said screaming banshees

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn….tinfoil hat…what a HOOT!

  • choicelady : Murph – we beamed you up. You’re home.

  • choicelady : glenn – almost missed your comment about Dems dissing the Right – there’d be WW III!!!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice…thanks for the moral support. Weird time warp

  • glenn : Murph–being that I’m not a technical person, I’m glad your problem is corrected. However, did you remember to place your tinfoil hat well AWAY from the computer? I wouldn’t want your problem to return. :)

  • SueInCa : LOL I don’t want you to think I think of you as a pipeline. Thanks KT good to see you too

  • choicelady : KT – got the point. VERY insightful quotation.

  • KillgoreTrout : Greeting and salutations Sue. Always good to “see,” you.

  • choicelady : Sue – I knew that.

  • SueInCa : you too Adlib

  • AdLib : Hey Sue! Nice to see you!

  • SueInCa : glenn they would be howling like banshees

  • AdLib : Cool Murph, glad to hear it!

  • glenn : Hi Sue

  • SueInCa : I meant CL

  • KillgoreTrout : My pleasure CL, actually, it should read…”contemp t without PRIOR investigation. But you get the point.

  • SueInCa : Thanks XL

  • glenn : Can you imagine the outrage on the right if a Democratic senator or congressperson’ s spouse was running around using the rhetoric against the right that Thomas’ wife is using against the left?

  • choicelady : Sue!!! So glad to see you!

  • SueInCa : Good evening all, can only stay awhile but happy to be here

  • choicelady : AdLib – Bush’s appointees are all lesser gods…

  • choicelady : KT – I’m unfamiliar with that quotation, and it is very apt! Thanks!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…all ok now.

  • AdLib : CL – You’re right! My bad! Well, I think we can say that the SCOTUS as a whole has been in serious decline since then, harming the nation in one decision after another and the Roberts court seems to be doing so in an accelerated pace.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I have often quoted Herbert Spencer’s great line that says, “There is a bar against all knowledge, and that bar is contempt without investigation.” It just goes right over their heads.

  • AdLib : Murph – You don’t need to shut down, just close your browser and re-open it.

  • choicelady : KT – nothing succeeds like a meme that has been rejected by all but that is still serviceable. They are people of very little imagination or sense. Good thing, too!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib…cleared the cache, killed the cookies, and wiped out the history and no breakthrough. I will try shutting down.

  • choicelady : AdLib – Roberts wasn’t in the SCOTUS in 2000, so that is one we can’t pin on him. I forget who was Chief Justice but I think it was Rehnquist.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Glenn/Ad Lib..I am only getting through on the Home page in the column on the far right.

  • AdLib : Murph – You need to clear your cache, those old Vox pages are cached in your browser.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, true, but not the RW robots. They just won’t let it go.

  • AdLib : KT – When you add up all the decisions of this Roberts court, beginning with crowning Bush President, it reads like a science fiction or horror story. Aliens have taken over our highest court to destroy America.

  • glenn : Hey Murph–you seem to be getting through to us now.

  • choicelady : Murph – that happened to me a couple of weeks ago. Don’t know why. Glad you made it through the time warp!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Hello to all. A special hello to Assumed Name. Hope you enjoy your first Vox.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ha glenn, I can see that! Like Beetlejuice when his head is shrunck by the witch doctor. ;)

  • choicelady : glenn – not only have they NO outrage about the lying war schemes and the lives it cost, they’d do it all again.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Ad Lib- something weird happening on the full page. I keep getting old Vox’s and there is an odd time scale.

  • glenn : KT–Until and unless the rw has 1,000 times the outrage about the more than 4,000 Americans killed in the lying Iraq war, I have absolutely no use for their so-called outrage about Benghazi.

  • AdLib : CL – Yep, that’s what makes the RW so clueless, they just can’t understand that they are deviant, they think it’s just that people don’t understand what they’re thinking. Nope, people do understand what they’re thinking which is why they oppose them!

  • choicelady : KT – The US citizens can read and understand the issues. They know Benghazi was a tragedy and NOT a scandal.

  • KillgoreTrout : No doubt Ad. We’re in trouble, as a nation when the members of our highest court are partisans.

  • AdLib : glenn – Bachmann sure looks like she’s going down on that criminal investigation, we’ll see but she didn’t give up her seat willingly, she knows she has to be ready to flee the US.

  • choicelady : glenn – LOL!!!

  • KillgoreTrout : I am so sick of the RW whine about Benghazi. What is left to uncover, for jeebus’s sake? These RW tools don’t want to talk about the 52 embassy attacks from 2001 to 2007.

  • glenn : KT–I’m beginning to believe that the small head is the only head conservatives have. And, I’m talking about the one on top of their necks!

  • choicelady : glenn – I so hope Bachmann gives us all the photo op of our dreams being hauled away by the Feds.

  • AdLib : KT – Has ROberts and the SCOTUS ever been proven to be right about anything they say to justify their rulings? With Citizens United, they scoffed at how the wealthy would overwhelm the public. With voting down the CRA they claimed that racism was over in the South then right after they struck down the provision, all the Southern states passed racist laws. Just saw today the SCOTUS approval rating is below 50% which is pretty stunning, very unusual. The reason though is obvious. Worst Court Ever!

  • choicelady : Assumed – we’ll be here. There are some things only YOU can do.

  • glenn : Oops–“never let anything go”.

  • choicelady : AdLib and glenn – the RW believes that all they have to do is find the ‘right words’ and Americans will rise up against Obama.

  • glenn : Ad–They definitely do prove the definition of a “conservative” . Never let anything to! And speaking of “scandals”, how about the latest on nutjob bachmann getting investigated by the ethics committee?

  • Assumed Name : Hi Kilgore & AdLib. (Choice, I just got a request for a snack. Back in a few…well 15 or so?…minutes.

  • KillgoreTrout : Thinking with the small head is never a good idea, if you are in politics.

  • choicelady : Assumed – edit, erasers, white out – they are all my friends, past and present! You’re in great company!

  • AdLib : glenn – I think Groundswell is actually a good thing for Dems, these Baggers, including Thomas’ wife, are conspiring to promote all the scandals that have been disproven so all that time and energy is just being wasted. They really think that America is going to suddenly see Benghazi as a big deal?

  • KillgoreTrout : Same here glenn.

  • choicelady : AdLIb – Huma is entitled to love Anthony the Weird, but we are not required to care.

  • Assumed Name : Ha! Thanks, Choice. (You wouldn’t believe how much I use that delightful edit function!)

  • glenn : KT–always glad to see you.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ruth bader Ginsberg has already said “I told you so.”

  • choicelady : glenn – I knew she was into something, but not that. Wow – change? Change you can…what? Yield to? Capitulate to? Run from? She is a very bizarre woman. Does not surprise me though it DOES dishearten me!

  • KillgoreTrout : I see, after the SC’s gutting of the VRA, Florida, Texas and North Carolina have already tried to advance voter suppression laws. It’s absolutely sickening.

  • AdLib : Not sure what’s in Huma’s mind but she is in such a difficult position, I do feel very bad for her.

  • glenn : CL–You haven’t seen in the news where Thomas’ wife, Ginni, is a member of an organization called Groundswell that has a “secret” 30-point war on liberals? They want to “fundamentally change” the U.S. government. Gee, isn’t that what President Obama has been slammed for during his whole term? That he wants “change”?

  • AdLib : Welcome to Vox, AN!

  • choicelady : KT – I totally agree! We are very flexible!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, that’s the wonderful thing about the Planet.

  • choicelady : AN – If you’ve revealed where you live, I’ve missed it, and you certainly do not need to say, but we all are from ALL over the country – and world – so if you feel like sharing a bit of your situation, we’d love to know. And if not – perfectly all right.

  • KillgoreTrout : AN, it does take a little while to adapt to the pace of VOX. I’m sure you’ll do just fine.

  • glenn : Assumed Name–welcome to Vox! I’ve read your comments here on the Planet, and look forward to hearing what you have to say. Please chime in whenever you feel like it…or, as you say, just sit a spell.

  • choicelady : glenn – what’s up with Thomas’ wife? I think she’s weird on any level, but has something happened that I missed?

  • KillgoreTrout : Great to to see you here AN. I make all kinds of typos in a forum this fast. People generally get my meaning.

  • choicelady : Hi Assumed – SO glad you joined us tonight! Never mind typos. We attribute them to ‘dyslexia of the fingers’. We are ADA compliant.

  • glenn : Speaking of wives–what’s with Clarence Thomas’ wife?

  • choicelady : glenn – I’m home, I’m safe, and let come what may. I had a fantastic conversation with her, and if I’m a bit sleepy and mentally fuzzy – so be it. Well worth it!

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, political wives are not really allowed to speak their minds.

  • Assumed Name : Hello everyone…I’m just here to sit a spell and enjoy the conversation. (Many typo’s to come… *smiles*)

  • glenn : CL–Oh dear, I truly hope you’re all right. Judging from the beginning comments tonight, you might be focused by the time the night is over. However, I’m not saying what you’ll be focused on!

  • choicelady : KT – I think Anthony’s lovely wife gets to make her own decisions about him, but as for us – he’s totally open to ridicule!!!

  • choicelady : AdLib – yes. I believe you’re correct, and thank you!

  • KillgoreTrout : Hey glenn and CL, always glad to see you. Or as Weiner’s wife would say, is that a gun you’re packing or are you just glad to see me?

  • AdLib : How can this guy stay in the race?

  • choicelady : glenn – I thought I was fine until I hit something and disconnected myself. I spent the afternoon with the head of our state NAACP – a woman I’ve know a little for many years – and she bought me a couple of glasses of wine. I think I’m not as focused as I otherwise might be…

  • KillgoreTrout : Is he some stiff competition or what?

  • glenn : KT–What’s up?

  • AdLib : CL I 6hink the proper spelling is Weiner Waggin’.

  • choicelady : hi glenn and hi KT!

  • glenn : CL–If Anthony is selling weiners on the weiner wagon, isn’t he taking away a job from Paul Ryan?

  • KillgoreTrout : Hi folks. How is Weiner doing in the POLES?

  • AdLib : Hey glenn! She’s doing great and enjoying the many kind words in her shy way.

  • glenn : CL–How are you tonight?

  • choicelady : Should Anthony be working selling wieners on the Oscar Mayer wagon instead of engaging in weiner waggin’? Just asking.

  • glenn : Hi AdLib–Good evening. How is your wonderful daughter? What a clever girl she is! And…how is the proud papa?

  • AdLib : Thanks CL! A good Friday back to you from the dynamic Lib duo!

  • choicelady : …but nobody doesn’t like Sara Lee? Hi and good Friday to you and your amazing, funny, creative and politically astute daughter!

  • AdLib : Don’t forget to say “Hi!” or “No one likes a bad Weiner!” when you arrive.

  • AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. Hope to see you then!

 

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