Vox Populi – 6-7-2013

0
26
  • KillgoreTrout : Have a wonderful weekend.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I love conversations about theology, metaphysics and existentialism. I would gladly take this up in the near future. I have to do the music thing before my brain shuts down for the night.

  • choicelady : KT – delighted to be with you, delightful conversation. Have a good sleep. See you on the Music thread tomorrow. Be well!

  • KillgoreTrout : I too must say goodnight. I have to start working on the music thread before I run out of steam. Thanks for the great discourse and hosting CL.

  • choicelady : KT – no. He wasn’t even gargling when we spoke. I had to call him – he was the only one who could fix it all. He sounded fine!

  • choicelady : KT – yes, but not ‘ageless’ discussants! How are you for more talk? If you wish to pack it in, we can. I don’t see Sabreen even though she’s apparently logged in. Feel free to head off to dreamland even if it’s a bit early.

  • KillgoreTrout : Gee, I hope Ad didn’t drown, with all that water boarding going on.

  • KillgoreTrout : Ha, very true CL. These are ageless subjects.

  • choicelady : Murph – the main thing is for you to rest and keep up your strength. These discussions have gone on for 2000 years. I think they’ll be around next week! Be well – sweet dreams!

  • KillgoreTrout : Sleep well Murph.

  • choicelady : Murph – Jesus’ thoughts are certainly pre-figured in many of the OT books. Justice runs through all the wisdom of the prophets. I am horrified though at how little that seems to impact conservatives today. Witness that self styled ‘christian’ representative from TN who misreads “the poor ye shall always have with you” to justify cutting food stamp funding. Yikes!

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Well….we introduced an intriguing topic in the late session of Vox….wish I had the wakefulness to continue it but I am off to bed. Thanks one and all.

  • KillgoreTrout : Murph, it actually doesn’t matter to me. As I said, it’s the awareness and wisdom that counts, no matter where it comes from. There is a definite objective/subjec tive split between Eastern religions and Western religions. I think a precise melding of the two is probably a good thing.

  • choicelady : Murph – that’s why Jesus’ teachings are so amazing. They are truly universal. I am simply fascinated by the possibility. And more to the point – he lived in an entrepot where if he did not travel widely, others passed by him. We know how much cultures and ideas have impacted one another, it would not strain credulity to think he learned and listened as scholars, traders, travelers,all came his way even if he never left his own land. His evolution from a fairly bratty youth to this amazing visionary is powerful no matter WHO influenced his thought.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT and Choice…yes I know about the efforts to give Issa some farther eastern roots….it’s just not very convincing….Hi s teachings are an expression of and an expansion of the wisdom tradition of the late Old Testament (i.e. the Book of Sirach for ex.), the teachings of the Essenic and Pharisaical community, and the common life of the Jews not bound to the temple.

  • KillgoreTrout : Have a great weekend funk.

  • choicelady : funk – good night! I missed your departure!

  • KillgoreTrout : Not really Murph. Spirituality is actually quite simple. Love thy neighbor as you love yourself. The Tao says love the world as you love yourself and you can be trusted to care for all things. To me, spirituality is an awareness that we are all just tiny parts of a much larger whole. The one true god theory is an actual denunciation of spirituality.

  • choicelady : Murph – that is the problem, isn’t it? But if we can learn from one another, then our own coming together even in tradition – Episcopal, Methodist, UCC – can be open to other people’s sense of oneness in Tao, in indigenous traditions, etc. More and more churches here are incorporating Native ideas, Buddhist teachings, etc. Spirituality can be flighty or it can be a means to grow larger even within a traditional framework. And one does not HAVE to do that to be whole and open and loving.

  • choicelady : Murph – there is a small theological/hist orical group looking at the Eastern stories of Issa (the later Muslim name for Jesus) whose legacy in Tibet etc. is documented. It is an inquiry that all churches rejected as heresy for centuries, but now it’s being revived, and people are trying to see if maybe during those 18 missing years, he did actually travel, learned, grew in very different ways. His vision is SO radical compared to the times, it is at least intriguing.

  • KillgoreTrout : Murph, I see no problem with that, but the eastern travel thing has been speculated by more than a few. It doesn’t matter where wisdon comes from, as long as people become aware of such wisdom. Religious people who have humility and genuine faith are great people. It’s the assholes that try to use religion to manipulate others that I have a problem with, and heaven knows, there are far too many of that sort around these days.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : By funk- thanks for the tip about our nuclear fighter.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- “spirituality” is so loose a term that it is almost impossible to frame in a meaningful way that interacts with church formation and community life experiences.

  • funksands : I really really hate to leave this thread when you three get going, but my son has a friend over for a sleep-over and my wife is expecting me to “help” or something. Have a great weekend and don’t solve all of the world’s problems until next week okay?

  • choicelady : KT – my work is grounded in that – spirituality. While I know only ONE Bible verse by heart (Jesus wept), I am moved by ALL the spiritual reading everywhere. The search for truth is not bounded. Anyone who thinks it is, loses out. For some people rules are essential since they screwed up their lives. So be it. But they have GOT to stop putting those rules on everyone else.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : KT- a word about Jesus. I know of no indication that he traveled into the Eastern World. Most of those who have really studied this say that was a carpenter whose mother was in his care (and thus he was unmarried) and that he had an awakening in midlife. Almost everything we think we know is a guess so I narrow in on his teachings as a worthwhile guide to living a worthwhile life.

  • KillgoreTrout : CL, I noticed that. Pretty cool, and quite true.

  • choicelady : funk – there is a growing movement to embrace quantum physics as a way of getting to “the meaning of it all”, and yes, I think this is the MOST exciting thing in the history of religion, spirituality, science all in one.

  • funksands : KT, very very true.

  • KillgoreTrout : It’s definitely on my list.

  • choicelady : KT – we both said almost exactly the same thing!

  • funksands : I would highly recommend a book I just finished “Why Does the World Exist?- An Existential Detective Story” by Jim Holt. It mixes theology, advanced science and math and very abstract philosophy. Very interesting read.

  • choicelady : Murph – I agree, but I think overall people are looking for spirituality and declining denominational rigidity. What comes of that is anybody’s guess. I do know churches with a real sense of purpose grow, and those that just go through the motions die. Those spewing hate are dwindling, too. The young folks are just NOT as rigid as the older generations. Less interested in proving their superiority!

  • KillgoreTrout : People, especially younger people are moving more toward spirituality and away from orthodox religion. Spirituality and religion are not always the same thing. I actually believe that the belief in “one true god,” is antithetical to genuine spirituality.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- your experience is like mine. The Anglican Movement by the traditionalists has strengthened the middle of the road Episcopal communities.

  • choicelady : KT – you will like it. It’s very wonderful both irreverant and mystical. Beautiful wonderful funny book.

  • choicelady : Murph – she totally ROCKS,doesn’t she! I have met Gene Robinson several times, and he’s amazing. It’s all growing in spirit and some in people. When the ultra righties left our central valley in protest, the churches started to GROW not shrink as those sick of the hate came BACK to the San Joaquin Diocese. We are almost back to full count! People want to belong to something based on love and inclusion, not hate and bigotry.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Funk-+- the issue of growing is complex…I think in general church affiliation is declining. And, frankly, so is faith orientation.

  • KillgoreTrout : I believe the tougher the road, the more wisdom is gained. A bit Spartan of me, but I do believe that.

  • funksands : Choice, I’m with KT, that sounds like a great read.

  • MurphTheSurf3 : Choice- and who is our leader? The Most Rev. Dr. Katharine Jefferts Schori,a scientist and a mom, the modern woman.