Vox Populi – 3-9-12

SallyT : Good night!

choicelady : LOL!! Good night!

SallyT : You have a good weekend, too. Hope you see some rain. Sweet dreams or dreasm right back at you!

choicelady : Yes – I’m sad for Sue as well, but she will be fine. She’s one strong woman! Be well, Sally!

choicelady : Uh – dreams.

choicelady : It’s been fun. I hope KT does his post on Tao and Murph definitely piqued our thought with his concern on censorship. Busy and thoughtful night! Have a lovely weekend, Sally, and I hope we meet up here next Friday! Sweet dreasm!

SallyT : Sorry about Sue.

SallyT : Enjoyed your hosting!

SallyT : Yes, we can call it a night.

choicelady : Well on this happy note of death and destruction on mountains, are we ready to ring out the evening?

SallyT : Yes they do! And, it can get dark real fast, too, and you are lost!

choicelady : I can’t fathom climbing a mountain and thinking it’s a stroll in the park!!! Even in the east, you can get a major change in climate in under 1000 feet. It’s just that we all think we are immune from consequences. And people die for that naivete.

SallyT : And, these are people that live here and should know better!

SallyT : We just had people lost up there a few weeks ago. They were found. People can be so stupid going up there not prepared!

choicelady : Years ago I worked for the American Youth Hostels as director of the LA office. I was told that one of our day excursions out of Portland had ended horribly with the group going up Mt. Hood ill prepared. A couple of kids slid into a cravass for lack of proper boots, and the leader caught a third girl and saved her even though she’d fallen in. He dislocated both shoulders holding her. I never got over understanding the risk of Mt. Hood. Beautiful and treacherous all at once.

SallyT : A big window can make a room for sure.

SallyT : Yes, Mt Hood is visible from just about everywhere. He is so big.

choicelady : Mt. Hood is breat-taking! Well so are they all. Ranier of course is beyond amazing up north, but the views everywhere around there are spectacular.

SallyT : The weather can change so fast up there that it is known as the killer mountain at times.

choicelady : Oh – maintenance is incredible in old houses. Our back windows are vinyl, too- west sun. But they have a little pizzaz to them so they look fine. Our major project was cutting a much larger window in the addition – there is a GREAT view of trees in our neighbors’ yards, but the window was a dinky double hung. So we had it cut out, enlarged and a lovely big window put in. It absolutely made the room which we use as a den and TV area.

SallyT : Mt Hood is always snow capped.

SallyT : Yes, I laugh when they think they have allot of snow here and it is a couple of inches!

choicelady : I was in Portland about 2 years ago for a conference, and I took some friends across the river in the mad belief we could find Mt. St. Helens. We weren’t but a few miles up I-5 when it started to snow like crazy, and by the time we figured out it was pure stupid to go on and turned around, five or six cars had skidded off the road. It was then I was damned glad I had come out here from Buffalo. Snow doesn’t faze me!

SallyT : Nothing wrong with keeping it basic.

SallyT : We kept the old windows on the north of ours because they are original and they are single pane. But they are small. We had to put vinyl on the south side windows. They are over sized and get so much sun that wood couldn’t handle it.

choicelady : I like the craftsman bungalows. This section, known as Boulevard Park and New Era Park, abound with them. Some have great interior detail. Ours is no longer one of them. Nothing we can do about it, so we just keep it as basic as we can.

SallyT : Oh, I know it can get cold there!

choicelady : We kept it pretty simple. We put in all new windows, and in the livingroom and diningroom they are wood interiors so they keep the look. We HAD to take out the aluminum frame ones – disgusting and COLD. Single pane, and it freezes here!

SallyT : My house in Missouri was a cottage craftsman. I bet yours looks really pretty. And, the love shows!

choicelady : Oh I’m so glad! That was what we did with my ex’s mom’s house. It was a tidy little three bedroom 1920s vintage bungalow in Rochester NY. We got one bid from someone who wanted to turn it into apartments and we refused. Sold it to a young man who wanted “a house like grandma’s.” Perfect.

choicelady : We just remodeled our bathroom and probably overdid it in modernity, but it IS pretty! Next – a facelift for the kitchen. But we did restore some of the picture rail, original woodwork, though it had to be painted since it was not redwood but fir and not high quality wood. Overall though, it looks fine. It’s a nice little house, and I love it.

SallyT : We won, even tho we had a lower bid, because they wanted it to go to a family.

SallyT : Yes. We were in a bidding war when buying it and the heirs to the estate were old and in their 70’s.

choicelady : There is something very wonderful about your being only the third owners. That is magnificent!

SallyT : We plan to expose more of it.

SallyT : Yes, the last owners live to 90.

choicelady : Oh wow – having the old siding! THAT is a treasure!

choicelady : For a 100 year old house, that’s quite a lot of stability! I’m not sure how many people lived here, but I met a woman whose grandparents lived here for 50 years, so that’s half its history! Her grandfather was a painter for the Southern Pacific RR and was Mexican. I’m deeply honored to now have their home.

SallyT : But, CL, underneath you will still find the barn siding!

SallyT : It is kind of like you house, lots has been covered up over the years. We are the 3 rd owners.

choicelady : The idea of living in a converted barn simply dazzles me! I bet it’s got tons of character!

SallyT : Yes, made for walking and bicycles.

choicelady : The entire city of Portland seems to have been planned for people, as shocking as that seems.

SallyT : I think I have told you once before that our house will be 100 this year too but that it stood as a barn 30 years prior to being made into a home in 1912.

SallyT : Portland has been ahead of its times in many things.

choicelady : That IS funny! I think we don’t HAVE a Portland Street – at least not in the main part of the city. We lack imagination – we have east-west street A-X and numbered streets that run north-south. Boring!

SallyT : I have been to Sacramento many times. And, I live on Sacramento St. here in Portland. Isn’t that funny, CL?

choicelady : And yet Portland has ALL the amenities of a large city. That’s what makes it so charming! And I’m in love with the overall “look”. I like Seattle but don’t think it’s actually very pretty – the views over to the Olympic Mountains is GREAT, but the architecture etc. kind of leaves me cold.

SallyT : People for the most part aren’t snotty. But, of course there are the richer parts that can be.

SallyT : Yes, Portland still has a small town feeling.

choicelady : LOL!! The ability to camp AND run back to “civilization” – perfect!

choicelady : I know Portland is quite liberal – but it seems not to be snotty. Is it easy to live there? I lived in Santa Cruz some years ago where the university is tucked into the redwoods, and it was insufferably snotty.

SallyT : Yes, you can go camping in the mountains, and run home if you forgot something real fast! I have to do that allot!!!!

choicelady : I’m in the Midtown area of Sacramento. It’s part of the original plat – 1850. We are about as far east as they settled, but ours is the first house on this site, 1912. So this is our centennial year! It’s an arts and crafts bungalow, but most of the built ins were torn out which does not really diminish the house but does make it more simple than probably was the original. It’s been added on to c. 1930s so we have three bedrooms which is unusual.

SallyT : And, you can get on the MAX downtown for free and go all over downtown. The ocean is a couple of hours away. Portland is very liberal, too, CL. That is why I like it.

choicelady : The thing that amazed me is how very walkable downtown is – the blocks are so short! You can get from here to there in no time. And every part of the city is so nice. Simply lovely in so many ways. And the fact camping is so close is also great. In no time you’re out of the city into beautiful mountains and rivers. Spectacular.

SallyT : Now where do you live in Calif?

SallyT : I think that is why they thought it might be the Pacific.

SallyT : Yes, it is a big river and has white caps on it!

SallyT : Yes, Multnomah Falls is very pretty, I go camping up by there at one of the government camps. Nice!

choicelady : I can see why they would think it was the ocean! It’s stunning in its winding beauty AND its size!

choicelady : Oh how GREAT! That would be amazing! I think there is nothing I’ve ever seen as gorgeous as the drive east toward Mt. Hood. It’s got to rival the Danube Bend for breathtaking beauty. My mousepad right here is the Multnomah Falls picture. I love that place, too!

SallyT : You know when Lewis and Clark first saw the wide part of the Columbia River, they thought it was the ocean. Big old river.

SallyT : We had a houseboat there. My daughter has it now. It is a nice island!

choicelady : That’s right. I want to go back!

SallyT : Jantzen Beach!

choicelady : No – I pretty much understand what you mean! First time I ever saw the Columbia I was slackjawed. We stayed at the Red Lion on what the hell is the name of that island? We had a view of the river and Mt. St. Helens that was absolutely awesome! WONDERFUL place! And we did the usual trek out to the Dalles. Super vacation. Fell in love.

SallyT : I should have said we are on the east side of the williamette. See i don’t even know where I am!

SallyT : Downtown Portland is on the west side of the willamette river.

choicelady : I’ll have to look at a map – I lose track when I’m not in a place. I do love that area and that city! Amazingly habitable is Portland!

SallyT : Now does that sound silly!

SallyT : And south side of the Columbia River.

SallyT : The north side of the Willamette River.

choicelady : Is that on the NE side of I-5? We have friends around there.

SallyT : Northeast

SallyT : Yes, its the company.

choicelady : That IS more fun! What part of Portland are you in?

SallyT : I go now just to watch the others mostly.

choicelady : Well – it’s more the company than the booze isn’t it?

choicelady : Agreed! Never was much of a drinker (that Amaretto binge was enough once) but get less and less tolerant as I age.

SallyT : But, get me out with the girls and I will party.

SallyT : I can go for tequila. I don’t drink much anymore. Well, it doesn’t take much anymore!

choicelady : I can’t handle rum in anything. Now tequila- no problem. Wonder what’s the difference? I’m not a hard liquor fan though. Never could abide scotch or bourbon or whiskey. Rum is my nemesis though. REALLY don’t like it!

SallyT : I don’t know everything else that is in it other than Amaretto. Probably can find it online. Believe me, they are good but they do get you drunk!

choicelady : Sally – no. What’s an Alabama Slammer?

choicelady : We used to drink that AND eat those yummy amaretto cookies. Then we’d set fire to the cookie wrappers that would whoosh up to the ceiling, burn out, and float back down. It wasn’t dangerous, and after enough of the drink, was incredibly pretty. Or so we thought.

SallyT : That has Amaretto but it takes the sugar down.

SallyT : Ever had an Alabama Slammer?

choicelady : It IS good, isn’t it? But twixt the alcohol and sugar, oh my lord…..

SallyT : That’s my favorite!!!!

choicelady : Mine, too, Sally! Once stayed up all night at a friend’s house drinking Amaretto. THE nastiest hangover EVER.

SallyT : Oh, but in my day, CL………….

choicelady : And it’s not even quarter to three! We are slackers, Sally!

choicelady : Good night Murph!

SallyT : Just you and me, babe, CL. I guess we need to close the bar again.

SallyT : Good night Murph!

SallyT : You guys talked about the movies Tree of Life? I didn’t get it.

SallyT : Not that everything in her past is terrible but it’s just that she claims to be so goodie goodie.

MurphTheSurf3 : ALL….good night. This was fun. Three topics: The Tree of Life, Rush and Free Speech, and Caribou Barbies big movie premier (remember her laughable last one)….not bad Good Job, choice lady……

SallyT : CL, Sarah is not a nice girl and she is no lady! She does have a past! Not a good one either.

choicelady : Murph – oh wow, thanks for the Spring Forward reminder!

SallyT : KT, you have a pleasant evening! I hope we are on again at the same time sometime this weekend. You’s my buddy!

MurphTheSurf3 : KT…night…don ‘t forget to change your clock tomorrow night if Spring Forward thing applies to your neck of the woods.

choicelady : KT – good night, good friend. See you on the morrow! Sleep well!

choicelady : Murph – what is so amazing is that the stuff that came out against Sarah came from ordinary Alaskans. No campaign could ever have found or made up the true crud that Sarah herself created. And for her to pretend she’s a wholesome and comely lass from the land of family values – rubbish! NOTHING about her is true up to and including hunting for moose which, as my friend Leah poited out, would make the cost per pound in the hundreds if not thousands of dollars given hiring the helicopter and outfitting Sarah et al. Sarah is a major fraud and self promoter without a shred of humanity or heart. Remember – as governor she demanded that rape victims PAY for their own rape kit exams. Wow. That’s low.

KillgoreTrout : Well good Planeteers, I must be going. See you all tomorrow.

MurphTheSurf3 : I know someone from Wasilla…..she spent a fortune….borro wed a fortune during her tenure (2 term limit)….some has worked out (the big box store malls and city service infrastructure) but the huge sports complex has left the town with a gigantic debt…..she does not show her face in town (mostly because she walked away from the governorship at the halfway mark).

SallyT : CL, I have heard the same from people that really knew her.

KillgoreTrout : CL, she is definitely all about herself. She’s one of the most self serving people I have ever been exposed to.

choicelady : KT – my friend Leah who has “godsownparty.c om” web site about Dominionism knows Sarah, Todd and the clan, and oh my, the stories I’ve heard! Hoo-eee! The PR needed to sanitize that life history is simply jaw dropping!

MurphTheSurf3 : Palin’s PAC posted a counter trailer on her site that used clips from the trailer and some cover screening that just said none of it was true….AND THEN ASKED FOR MONEY SO SP COULD KEEP UP THE BATTLE AGAINST THE LAME STREAM MEDIA.

KillgoreTrout : I have my moments CL.

choicelady : KT – she is NOT a nice person in any way at all.

choicelady : Sally – that is a great summing up of our Sarah.

KillgoreTrout : I was laughing out loud when I read that she throws canned goods at Todd.

choicelady : KT – LOL!!! Palin must feel some priest just walked over her grave with all the divinity you’ve heaped upon her from the WRONG branch of Christianity! How very fine!

SallyT : She is pretty in the face but inside not so much!

choicelady : Murph – I won’t say I admired her, I quickly learned she had an appalling track record of greed and thus corruption, but I did find her quirky appealing. Until I ALSO found out how damned MEAN she is. I still think she’s very pretty even though apparently she’s damn near anorexic, a terrible mother, and not quite the saintly (non-catholic version) wife and helpmeet she pretends.

KillgoreTrout : CL, I forgot to add the word Perpetual in there!

KillgoreTrout : I’ve always liked “Caribou Barbie,” too.

MurphTheSurf3 : KT…I call Palin…the Nanook Queen of the Tundra.

choicelady : KT – you just made Palin shudder by “catholicizing ” her! She thinks the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon!

KillgoreTrout : Sally, her supersized ego will not let her miss it. She’ll definitely watch. Besides, she needs new “victim,” material!

MurphTheSurf3 : ALL- I am having a GAME CHANGE viewing party tomorrow night. Most of us are PPH…Progressiv e Palin Haters….so it should be a hoot. I actually admired her when I first eyed her. The rep from Alaska was good but it turned out to be mostly spin. The McCain experience accentuated her worst attributes and crush any sense of real public service. Of course, it also turned out that she is very personable, glib, AND uninformed and lazy….so that did not help.

choicelady : Sally – I know she didn’t vote for Obama, but the fact she could NOT bring herself to vote for the woman she had worked to put in the Veep position was mind boggling!

SallyT : Palin says she isn’t going to watch BUT she’ll watch!

choicelady : Oh – did anyone hear Gingrich’s campaign manager tonight on Matthews who casually claimed that budgets were balanced while Newt was speaker – taking CREDIT for that? Matthews skewered the guy saying that Newt had not been there for all of the balanced budgets that were CLINTON’s budgets. But that’s the new Newt meme – HE balanced budgets when in the House. EGO, my God!

KillgoreTrout : Ah yes, Palin, Our Lady of Sorrow.” Big bad mean media!

SallyT : CL, she didn’t vote for Obama either. She just didn’t vote. Thats okay with me!

MurphTheSurf3 : GAME CHANGE, the book, is much more than the Palin story. It is based on in depth interviews with 300 people on all sides of the campaigns, massive work with the written resources and databases. The book is divided into three parts. Part 1 consists of the first fourteen chapters and is about the Democratic primary race between Obama and Clinton as well as the Edwards affair. Part 2 covers the next three chapters and is about the Republican primary race. Part 3’s final six chapters describe the fall campaign between Obama and John McCain.

choicelady : Sally – that’s what the interviewer said. I guess she decided to really “tell all” if she said now that she could not stomach voting for Palin then. Shocking!

SallyT : She told them that while they were making the movie.

SallyT : That about her not voting wasn’t in the book.

choicelady : Murph – that’s right, now I recall her name. Her revelation was STUNNING!

choicelady : Murph – feel free to riff on what you know about Game Change. I’ve not read the book and won’t see the show, but I’m very interested in the insights.

KillgoreTrout : I’ll have to wait for netflix to put it on their list. I’ve read that McCain and Palin aren’t too happy with it. So it must have some merit!

SallyT : CL, did you see when they had the two side by side. Julianne came really close.

MurphTheSurf3 : Choice…Nicole Wallace was the prep person assigned to work with Palin and Wallace spilled her guts to John Heilemann and Mark Halperin the authors of the book.

choicelady : I have to say the trailers for GAME CHANGE with Julianne Moore were stunning – man, she CAUGHT Sarah! Though she did not deliver the “lipstick” line with quite the right nuance. Never mind – all lookin’ good, wink.

SallyT : It is on HBO tomorrow night.

choicelady : Oh – that’s right! This is what happens to me when I merely drift past the TV. Half news. Other half – whoosh – right over my head. I don’t have HBO/Showtime (whatever) though – sorry I won’t see it!

choicelady : Sally and Murph – is this actually not evidence of the power of free speech? The Right did not get rid of Ellen, and we are working to get rid of Rush and may or may not. But that’s equal in the power of OUR free speech to make our feelings clear.

SallyT : CL, that was the woman that wrote the book Game Change.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL…I am happy with the Planet’s contribution with the free speech issue…since you brought it up….GAME CHANGE premiers tomorrow night and the GOP hornet nest is swarming….is this something for tonight or something to wait on.

SallyT : But, lets look at it from our side. We didn’t like the conservatives telling JC Penney’s to get rid of Ellen DeGeneres. They didn’t have enough to get her dropped.

choicelady : Murph – the “no kids” issue for Rush may be, how can I put this delicately, that he is shooting blanks? Mr. Macho may be sterile? Or had a vasectomy, the freaking hypocrite?

choicelady : Murph – you are spot on. The sniveling GOP won’t repudiate Rush, and GOP women are spitting angry about it. Slightly off topic, but one of Palin’s Veep campaign handlers said she was so disgusted with Palin that on election day, this campaign professional DID NOT EVEN VOTE. She could not bring herself to vote for Palin. So GOP women do have some standards that are proving to be immutable. Rush is pushing them left. Another GOP elected official who is leaving office said she’s so disgusted with her own party and its war on women she is voting for Obama. The GOP and Rush have SERIOUSLY miscalculated the impact their disgusting behavior is having on GOP women!

MurphTheSurf3 : KT..certainly a good thing for the species.

KillgoreTrout : Murph, I think rush is far too self absorbed to want children. That’s probably a good thing for the rest of the world.

SallyT : We may not stop his listeners and his free speech but we can boycott advertisers.

KillgoreTrout : I have no doubt that rush views women as chattel.

SallyT : I think Rush has learned that women and yes liberals do have power.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL….married four times and a master of the contraception he seems to disdain…no kids

choicelady : KT and all – do ya think there’s a correlation between his disgusting denigration of women and the fact he’s been married four times? Maybe?

MurphTheSurf3 : KT…bitch, again and again.

KillgoreTrout : Good. I feel better now!

MurphTheSurf3 : The other side benefit of the assault on Rush is that it has forced the GOP and associated media to demonstrate how much they are in the tank to this guy. Another of those huge errors that is further tarring the GOP brand.

KillgoreTrout : Murph, he doesn’t want to lose his tough guy image. Did he call anyone a slut or a prostitute?

choicelady : KT – Rolodex deleted! Whew!

choicelady : Sally – yes, and he commands a pretty penny in ad revenue which we apparently have eroded. HAH – take THAT, Rush baby! The people speak BACK!

KillgoreTrout : Ooops. Sorry CL, That IS something you don’t want in your mental Rolodex.

SallyT : That is correct, CL, but he is the biggest radio show because of the number of listeners he has.

MurphTheSurf3 : KT…he was just as nasty today as ever….so maybe not.

choicelady : KT – the image of Rush tucking his tail ‘tween his fat thighs is waaaay bad visuals.

choicelady : Sally – his listeners at the moment get him free. If we make a dent in his funding via advertising withdrawals, then what? All his listeners will either have to PAY (fund drives as for NPR?) or the show could be cancelled. Just being a listener doesn’t generate the moolah!

KillgoreTrout : Sally, I can’t help thinking that Rush has been called on the carpet and given some pretty stern warnings. The loss of 50 advertisers would amount to large sum of money Clear Channel is losing. You know these people are ALL ABOUT money. I think rush has tucked his tail between his fat thighs.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL…agree with you. Clear Channel is being asked by a number of advertisers not to place their contracted ad time with the Limbuagh hours. They appear to be complying for fear of losing the clients altogether.

choicelady : Murph – OK I see that. But they have “open” ads where you buy time on Clear Channel and they decide where it goes. What is being asked is that they put nothing toward Rush’s show. I think that is a clear boycott of RUSH but not of Clear Channel which would be a “secondary boycott” and yes, illegal. BTW the anti-abortion forces use “secondary boycotts” against landlords and others to stop clinics from renting space etc. They never got prosecuted for that. Doubld standard piss me off!

SallyT : I don’t know why anyone would ever listen to him to begin with. But, those that do will keep him going.

SallyT : With Rush, this may make him tone down or if he survives he will be louder than ever and say anything and everything.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL…the boycott of the advertisers to HIS show vs. the boycott of the advertisers on all of Clear Channel….in that case the effort would be aimed to shutting down the carrier of his message….the link is less direct and therefore less supportable.

KillgoreTrout : I guess it boils down to protest, more than censorship. No law saying we have to be silent about hateful cretins spewing their bile. So I don’t see any movement to get him fired as censorship, but our right, the protesters right to their free speech.

SallyT : Well, for the most part, those complaining about Rush aren’t his regular listeners. So, those that don’t listen to his show are telling Advertisers that they won’t buy their products if they pay him with advertising money. That maybe what Murph means by a bridge to far????

choicelady : Murph – you had me until the ‘bridge too far’ part. I’m not seeing the difference between a boycott and…???

MurphTheSurf3 : One of the best arguments to surface today and one that reflects thinking here is that this is the exercise of the….wait for it….FREE MARKET….Rush has a product. That product depends on a large audience who buy into his programming premise. A boycott demonstrates that there is another audience that objects to that premise and wants it toned down, changed or muted. Think of it as cigarette package warning legislation. Rush is a huge advocate of that free market and here it is, at work. IF his product is as fantastic as he claims, the boycott will fail. No one is blocking his speech or forcing him from the air. NOW….if pressure is brought on local stations and clear channel to drop and the “persuasion” is a form of disruption or of sponsors being driven from the network….that may be a bridge too far.

choicelady : Oh KT – that IS a great point!

SallyT : Right, CL, that is boycotting advertisers.

KillgoreTrout : It just occured to me how ironic it is that rush, the champion of unregulated capitalism,may be brought down by capitalism. How juicy!

choicelady : Sally – boycotting advertisers IS different isn’t it from cancelling a show for low ratings? Rush has high ratings, but we’re trying to pull the money carpet out from under his big feet anyway. That still is not censorship, IMHO. It’s OUR free speech trying to influence his being moved to another arena where he does less damage.

SallyT : However, I don’t think Rush will lose his base listeners.

SallyT : That isn’t censorship but a personal choice for the listeners and the company advertising their product.

SallyT : I think with Rush, people are telling the advertisers that they don’t care for Rush and they won’t buy from a company that advertises on his show.

choicelady : Oh hi Murph! Is this helping?

choicelady : KT – yes, I see a difference between a speech once and a daily program, but danged if I can express the difference. I think it rests, as Sally was saying, on not silencing someone BUT also not paying them to be present every day in one spot to spew.

SallyT : It the show is not pulling a big audience, they won’t advertise on it and the show gets cancelled.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL….I am here just “listening” right now. You all are GOOOD…..

choicelady : Sally – yes, it is what you said. I’m sort of half writing to Murph who seems to have stepped out. Sorry – that must be confusing!

KillgoreTrout : Well CL, I see a differnce between a speaking engagement and a daily radio show. I can’t really define that difference, but there just seems to be one. Again, I have mixed feelings about someone poisoning society on a daily basis, and someone espousing their well thought out conclusions.

SallyT : They use the Nelson ratings to see how many people are watching a TV show to see if it pays to advertise on it.

choicelady : KT – legalisms aside, his is “hateful” speech. Unfortunately, that is legally protected! This IS America.

SallyT : CL, I think that is what I said but in a different way.

choicelady : KT – in most cases, Rush does NOT fit the ‘hate speech’ category since he issues no real threats. Threat is an element in legal definitions of hate speech.

choicelady : Sally – no, that’s NOT censorship. Or I’d be guilty of it daily since I don’t listen. But we’re asking that Rush not be paid for it, that maybe he goes from nationwide exposure supported by our consumer spending to a lower level of exposure that is NOT supported by our consumer spending. I do not think that is censorship. It’s expressing through our free speech our reluctance to patronize anyone who turns around and gives our money to Rush. We are not stopping him from speaking. We are stopping him from being PAID to speak in that arena.

SallyT : The program can still air with that person and they can keep advertising on it. But, if they feel that more of their customer base may stop listening and they decide to stop paying to advert on that program, that isn’t censorship. That is a money decision.

KillgoreTrout : CL, hate speech is a delicate matter. We don’t want to take a person’s right to free speech away, but we don’t want hate speech to go unchallenged. Rush is poison to any decent democratic society. There is the necessary question of who gets to determine what is or isn’t hate speech, but in some cases, there is no doubt. Rush fits into the “no doubt,” category.

MurphTheSurf3 : ALL….I have just stood by and ready your comments on my question re. Limbaugh and speech….Well done. Most of it reflects my thinking. More in a bit. CL, thanks for asking the members of our on-line stoa for their wisdom.

SallyT : If you are going to stop listening because you find the person of no interest because you don’t agree with his program and you think an advertiser should know why, that isn’t censorship.

choicelady : KT – well, think of the times various cowards have refused to let Noam Chomsky speak freely. Censorship is often cowardly ways of silencing dissent. But pushing back against someone with larger power than any of the rest of us have – is that censorship, stopping free speech – or is it reducing him to OUR level but letting him continue?

SallyT : I don’t think it is censorship to stop listening to someone you don’t find of interest.

choicelady : Murph – I always have the same question when a speaker is scheduled somewhere and people protest the appearance. That, it seems to me, IS censorship since it’s a on-time event. I don’t care who it is – Condi Rice is appearing here to talk about “success” which is a head shaker – I think we’re better off hearing them out and protesting what they have said. But is it not different when you have the free speech of our own to say someone who is on every day is no longer welcome in this venue even though they can go elsewhere, and we are not stopping them?

KillgoreTrout : What gets me about rush and censorship is that a mature, decent person with a true sense of responsibility should never have to worry about censorship. But then, that’s not rush.

SallyT : Okay, I won’t take it personal. She needs her rest.

choicelady : Anyway – Murph – does any of this help with the issue of pushback vs censorship?

choicelady : Now Sally – kes was waiting FOR you but not to leave! She finally got a night off and needs sleep!

SallyT : Kes, oh yah, you are leaving because I just got here!

SallyT : Oh, I am so sorry to hear that but I am glad they made a decision that they felt was the best.

choicelady : kes – Go Marcy indeed! Definitely be good to yourself though we will miss you. Sweet dreams!

KillgoreTrout : Sleep tight kes. I am so glad Marcy won. She is a genuine decent person.

choicelady : Sally – want to bring you up to date. SueinCA’s father in law died yesterday, so she won’t be with us for a bit. It was particularly hard since the family had to decide to end life support. Murph and we were discussing our own experiences with that earlier.

SallyT : A show gets cancelled when it loses listeners or viewers on TV. It doesn’t pay to advertise because the audience isn’t big enough to spend money on.

kesmarn : Sally, this has nothing to do with your arrival! But I promised myself an early bedtime tonight (11 p.m.)and here it is almost 11:30 already! I’m afraid I’m gonna have to take my leave. Final note: “Go Marcy Kaptur!!”

KillgoreTrout : kes, at first the Tao is very mysterious. But after repeated readings, it kind of sinks in through a sort of osmosis.

SallyT : Hello, KT, my friend!

choicelady : Murph – what KT said about taking up air space: does that help your concern? Not silencing him everywhere but moving him out of one arena? Does that change the equation for you?

KillgoreTrout : Hey Sally, glad you could make it.

SallyT : I think Rush will have a station to air him, maybe not as big.

KillgoreTrout : Well we should certainly stay on the attack. I don’t think it is advocating censorship as much as it is gettin a man who contributes nothing to society to stop taking up air space.

choicelady : kes – I do think cutting into the money offsets the numbers of listeners. Maybe they’ll take up a bake sale to keep Rush on the air. But even if he goes – there are the Michael Savages left behind…

SallyT : No rain today, CL, but tomorrow it is going to start again.

kesmarn : Hey, Sally! I wonder if Rush is going to have enough advertisers to keep his hate-machine up and running.

choicelady : Sally – how’s the weather up there? We heard we might get rain. Do you have any?

choicelady : KT – we did it with Beck. He had more viewers than that I understand.

SallyT : I’m fine, CL.

kesmarn : KT, that’s where we need the article. The doing without doing part is going to need some ‘splainin for us amateurs!

choicelady : Sally! Hi how are you?

KillgoreTrout : Sad to say, that I thinkrush is “too big to fail.” He has about 16 million listeners.

choicelady : kes – someone noted that we have to keep this going for months to make it bad enough to get rid of Rush from the airways. We have to damage Clear Channel financially because of Rush. But is that censorship or forcing him to come down to the level of the rest of us? So long as he can speak in some forum – is that censorship at ALL?

SallyT : Rush will not be off the air. He will continue because he has people that like what he says. He plays to them.

KillgoreTrout : kes, the Tao suggests that we don’t seek fulfillment. But can attain it through our effortless deeds. Teaching without words. Doing, without doing.

kesmarn : Does anyone think that this will end up in Rush’s being off the airwaves altogether?

kesmarn : That “self” thing will get you every time. That’s where psychology and therapy sometimes fail us. It isn’t all about self-fulfillment all the time.

choicelady : Murph – the other issue is that impinging on free speech really is about government silencing all your speech. If Rush were to lose his show because no one wants to pay for it, and he keeps on speaking through other media which we are not stopping, then it is WE who are speaking, too.

KillgoreTrout : HA kes, I wonder if he approved the height of their trees?

KillgoreTrout : When we help others, we are not thinking so much about the “self.”

kesmarn : “If ah say y’all and tellya thet ah luv grits, willya luv me?” But when he was in Michigan, he was a Michigander. All things to all people, he thinks. No one to anybody in reality.

choicelady : Murph – this is a knotty problem involving money. If he gets to speak, but we have no way to reply coherently, then we do have the right to express our displeasure to his funders. He can be reduced to blogs and still speak – lordy, look at the National Stormfront skinheads and what they do – but is he guaranteed a RADIO show to have his speech?

KillgoreTrout : kes, there is some clinical evidence that suggests that very thing.

KillgoreTrout : Hey, I got a kick out of Rmoney saying he is a grit eater, to a Southern audience. The guy is so transparent. His attempts at endearment always make look like phony he really is.

kesmarn : Yes, KT, and not to trivialize, but sometimes even when you feel awful, if you go out into the world and do decent things, you really do improve your mood inadvertently!

KillgoreTrout : kes, I think it is definitely a two way street. Good ideas put into practice must definitely leads to an inner change. And after a while of this the two become the same. It takes real self honesty.

kesmarn : Rush equates declining $$$ with suppression of his right to speak. No one is saying he can’t express an opinion. Just that he shouldn’t be paid to do it.

MurphTheSurf3 : ALL….Here is what I proposed to CL….the story provides the context….I have been caught up in two discussions today re. Limbaugh. I was challenged in my boycott efforts with these words: “Murph aren’t you really advocating the suppression of speech in all of this? I thought you progressives were willing to die on that hill.” Hmmmmm. A topic I would love hear others weigh in on.

KillgoreTrout : Why thank you CL. Much appreciated.

choicelady : Murph and all- Murph has proposed that if we are boycotting Rush, is that supression of free speech. This is a thorny issue. Anyone want to weigh in?

MurphTheSurf3 : KT…Good on ya.

kesmarn : KT, I may be completely muddled, but it always seemed to me as though Confucianism was saying that if you could get the “outer man” to conform to an ethical standard, the inner man would follow along. I still wonder about that.

KillgoreTrout : Well Murph, CL and kes, with all this positive encouragement, I think I really should take on the project. Thanks folks!

MurphTheSurf3 : CL I have been caught up in two discussions today re. Limbaugh. I was challenged in my boycott efforts with these words: “Murph aren’t you really advocating the suppression of speech in all of this? I thought you progressives were willing to die on that hill.” Hmmmmm. A topic I would love hear others weigh in on.

choicelady : KT – that’s why we love you – you don’t look for cheap and easy answers to anything! Dominionism is for the weak who need guides and rules and no thought at all – people with no capacity for introspection. That’s not you.

kesmarn : I think of us as more Cirque du Soleil.

choicelady : Murph – LOL!!! You are correct about that!

KillgoreTrout : kes, Confucianism basically deals with life on a day to day basis, where the Tao is broader and deals more with longevity.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL I am at the Planet….I have joined the circus, my dear.

choicelady : We’re an hour in, and frankly I don’t have a discussion topic we’ve not already done to death. I’m totally open to free discussion or someone proposing something. Up to y’all (said in the spirit of the day’s snark at Mitt).

MurphTheSurf3 : KT- my only input re. this project is that it could be something that sits on the front page for a while and (with your permission) becomes something for all of our archives to be shared as a gift (from you). It could well be a marvelous investment of time and energy.

kesmarn : KT, I studied a bit about it back in the day. Always seem much more my style than Confucianism. Although Confucianism makes a bit more sense to me now than it did then. Only a bit.

KillgoreTrout : CL, I don’t want anything to do with those lunatics.

choicelady : kes – yeah, there is that. They already sent in the clowns.

KillgoreTrout : Yes Kes, that’s exactly it. It basically means Nature’s way.

kesmarn : These Repub primaries are enough to make you want to join the circus. But then you remember: this IS the circus.

choicelady : KT – if it were easy, it would be Dominionism. And you could keep THAT to yourself, thanks!

KillgoreTrout : This project will take a little time. The Tao encompasses so much about life and “suggests,” how we react to it. It’s basically a collection of 81 very wise ideograms, but it is a bit mysterious, as it should be.

choicelady : Murph – when you wrote “I am joining the chorus” I thought you’d written “I am joining the circus.” Well – that might work, too. You never know.

kesmarn : Hey…thank YOU! If I remember correctly “Tao” has the same dual meaning in Chinese that it does in English. As in: “way” (method) and “way” (path) No?

choicelady : KT – I’d love to know more. I think all life-affirming beliefs should be made as visible as possible. There is certainly enough dark in the world, as Murph says. We’d love to know about it – and your journey with it if you feel like sharing.

KillgoreTrout : CL, I will do that. Thanks kes, for an idea that hadn’t occured to me before.

MurphTheSurf3 : KT…I am joining the chorus

choicelady : kes – I posted a link which I won’t go find on YouTube by Iris Dement, “Let the Mystery Be.” It’s a GREAT song about ‘after’.

kesmarn : Really, KT. I don’t want to arm-twist you. But I think you really should do it.

choicelady : Murph – your avatar does convey the effort to light the dark. It’s perfect.

kesmarn : It’s a huge mystery, isn’t it? Will we ever figure it all out?

KillgoreTrout : kes, that is a great idea. It has been so important in my life. i would go as far as saying it actually “saved,” my life. Literally.

choicelady : KT – I’d love to see what you know about Tao Te Ching. Please do write something?

choicelady : kes – I’ve had so much death around me that I’m fairly immune to it. But I have no interest in participating! It seems natural and part of the “process”, but it leaves such a hole in the firmament. Sudden deaths in particular – what do you do with all the feelings and routines and things of that person? Clear evidence there is no “intelligent design”. It’s a mess!

MurphTheSurf3 : KT-+- thank you for that. I will.

kesmarn : KT, have you ever considered writing an article on the Tao?

MurphTheSurf3 : CL- Dark night….one of my realizations is that the darkness is the norm and the light is something we need to introduce into it….thus my avatar on this blog and elsewhere.

KillgoreTrout : Murph, you should really look into the Tao Te Ching. It deals quite a bit with loss and life and death.

kesmarn : Those dark hours are tremendous testing grounds. “Dark night of the soul” is no joke.

choicelady : Murph – these are the life altering events that have no real way of being “meaningful”. They just hurt.

MurphTheSurf3 : kes- my faith life has not been the same since. It’s better really but much less comforting.

choicelady : Oh Murph! I’m so sorry. My folks both had DNR orders, but it never really came to that. Despite all her protests, my mother wound up by her choice wired to the gills, died anyway. My Dad just kind of slept away. Very peaceful. I’m sorry YOU had to go through that – it’s got to be the worst choice EVER no matter what.

kesmarn : Twice is just too much, Murph. That must have been terrible.

KillgoreTrout : Send my condolences to Sue. That kind of loss is never easy.

kesmarn : Yes, c’lady. Got an email today.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL – condolences to SueinCA and to her family. My thoughts go with her. I have had to make that decision twice with my father and mother. Horrifying.

choicelady : kes – I hope Sue’s message to you got through via AdLib? She especially wanted you to know.

KillgoreTrout : Great idea Murph.

kesmarn : Deepest sympathy to my BFF and her whole family. A very, very difficult time, I’m sure. Prayers for all.

choicelady : kes – your congrats to AdLib et al. are very funny, and at some point we’ll explain why! Very sweet of you!

KillgoreTrout : Murph, Tree Of Life sounds like it’s right up my alley. I love existential topics.

choicelady : Hey everyone – I promised I’d bring you up to date: yesterday SueinCA’s father-in-law died following a heart attack from which he did not recover. They had to make the decision yesterday to turn off life support, one of the hardest things a family must do. So she won’t be around for a bit but did want you all to know why. She’s good, but sad, and she will be focusing on her husband and family for a bit.

MurphTheSurf3 : KT, Choice, Kes….maybe we can do a discussion of Tree of Life here at the Planet. I have a proposal in to AdLib and the rest of the admin team regarding a group discussion format here that uses an important article as its focus, but I am suddenly realizing it is probably important to expand this to include film and other media programming. I need to think.

KillgoreTrout : That was nice of you CL. I’ll have to congratulate AdLib tomorrow.

kesmarn : Happy Anniversary AdLib, Mrs. Lib and Baby Libby!

choicelady : KT – yes, AdLib and his beloved are celebrating their anniversary, so I agreed to fill in.

kesmarn : Wow…apparently Brad Pitt is not just another pretty face in this one.

choicelady : Murph – those ARE the questions, aren’t they?

KillgoreTrout : Hey CL. I see you’re the “EmCee,” this evening.

MurphTheSurf3 : Kes- the film is disturbing. It has a free flowing narrative. You have to interact with its premise. Is life a choice of grace or nature? How does memory interact with the moment we are in and where we are going. How are we part of a universe which is the face of “god”.

choicelady : Murph – it’s not playing around here anymore, but maybe I’ll risk a DVD even without the impressive surround. Thanks for the lead.

KillgoreTrout : Murph, I’ve been waiting to see Tree of Life. It’s on my netflix list.

choicelady : kes – YIKES. Any way you measure, that’s COLD.

kesmarn : Down to 19 tonight, KT. But the wind makes it feel colder.

MurphTheSurf3 : CL – the film is really worth the time, but it takes concentration. I suggest that it be seen on as big a screen as you can get with the sound pushed up (there is a lot of whispered “prayer” in the narrative). Have your favorite beverage and plan not to leave. The first 20 minutes feels very long but then most get into the groove and the next two hours just happens. Intense.

choicelady : Hi KT! Great to see you! Murph was reviewing the film he just saw, and kes telling us about the state of health care. Pick a topic – we’re open and rolling!

KillgoreTrout : Hey kes. What are your temps?

choicelady : kes – we have a legal staffing ratio in CA but it is observed more in the breech than the commission. All to save money. Used to teach unionized nurses who said even their supervisor, a nun, was that way. Called her Sister Mary Saveabuck.

kesmarn : Hey, KT! It’s incredibly cold up here in the Glass City.

KillgoreTrout : Evening folks!

kesmarn : Murph…sounds very intriguing. Why were people leaving? Just too weird for them? And c’lady — the poor patients, God love’em, I feel for them. They end up waiting for everything. Much too long.

choicelady : Murph – that sounds amazing and, if you’d not explained it, it would NOT interest me. But the fact you are stunned by it makes me want to see it. Thank you! Maybe we should have a movie review section with you doing it?

choicelady : kes – that is the feeling I get from almost any medical place. We’ve swallowed the “business is good” line that hospitals, universities, and even some government think they have to drive for profit and all on the backs of working people. I’m sorry that’s happening to you!

MurphTheSurf3 : kes…the film is the story of a family growing in Waco, Tx in the context of the creation of the universe…..Sou nd ridiculous but it really, really works if you stay with it and let it roll through your mind. Brad Pitt is incredible as are the rest of the cast. The directing is unbelievable and the effect, all hand made, no computer generation, are stunning and SO evocative. You keep zooming in and out of the story as the universe unfolds and then collapses.

choicelady : Murph – wow. Now I am interested. My husband and I went to see “Ides of March” about a presidential campaign, and it was SO AWFUL we almost left, but we slogged it out and then were pissed we’d done so. Terrible, horrible film.

kesmarn : Suffice it do say…profit should never be a motive in health care decisions. And the fact that I work for a “non-profit” doesn’t seem to make a difference.

choicelady : kes – you live in a world of fellow sufferers! Blow off steam if you like!

MurphTheSurf3 : CL not an easy film to view. I saw it at a theater when it first came out. 1/3 of the audience was gone by the 45 minute mark. The rest stayed to the end. When the credits rolled 1/3 got up in disgust and fled the theater with a communal WTF groan. ANd 1/3 sat there stunned as the long credits and music gave us space to decompress. Yeah…intense then and once again.

kesmarn : Oh c’lady… I could go into a long blither about how low morale is right now, but it would only be of interest to fellow sufferers.

choicelady : Oh no, not YOU, kes! They really ARE exploiting you!

kesmarn : What was it about, Murph? And yes, c’lady, those hours do seem to be getting longer and longer. Couldn’t be me…

choicelady : Welcome Murph! That sounds important – I’ve not seen it but heard it bears huge reflection.

choicelady : Long haul, those hours! Pretty soon everyone will be working the “long turn” like pre-union steelworkers – 12 hours on, 12 off. Yuck!

MurphTheSurf3 : Greetings Planeteers…jus t came from screening The Tree of Life with a group of friends. We are meeting for breakfast to discuss it because we could not say anything tonight. A stunning film in so many ways. Best to let it soak in and then reflect.

kesmarn : Yes, I do usually work till later, but this is my Friday off. Working tomorrow and Sunday 3-11,which always turns out to be 3-12.

choicelady : Yes – I always loved that song. The epitome of lonely nights…

kesmarn : That was the song… and Joe was the bartender! “One for my baby, and one more for the road…” That song is older than either of us!

choicelady : Is Joe here? Where?

kesmarn : “A quarter to 3. There’s no one in the place. Except you and me… So set ’em up Joe…”

choicelady : How are you? Don’t you usually work til later on Friday? Glad to see you!

choicelady : Hey kes! Yes, at this point just the two of us. Isn’t that a song…?

kesmarn : Hey, c’lady! Is it just the two of us this Friday evening? How are you?

choicelady : Test?

choicelady : Welcome to Vox Populi, our unique PPOV Friday night chat. Whenver anyone other than I arrives, please say “hi” and we will begin. I don’t have funksand’s ability to carry on a conversation alone. His was masterful! Mine? Not so much.

choicelady : If you want to check in early, extra credit can be arranged with AdLib later this week. I’m sure he will approve.

choicelady : Be sure to say “Hi” when you arrive. Those just browsing elsewhere (knowing NOT what they are missing) appear to us in the balcony, so we want to know you are here. We will start at 7:00 PST.

choicelady : Yup!

AdLib : Wow CL, you are battle tested!

choicelady : Choicelady was a substitute high school teacher once. I know no fear…

AdLib : Vox Populi, our live chat about the week’s events begins tonight at 7 pm PST. Guest hosting for me tonight will be the brilliant and lovely Choicelady so no spitballs or synchronized coughing just because there’s a substitute! Have a great evening, I’ll catch up on tonight’s chat tomorrow and see you for Vox Populi next week!